Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide - Q and A

Before we start, let me just say on behalf of us all to thank Ciarán very, very much

for a very informative presentation of assisted suicide and euthanasia.

I think it's helped us all appreciate and understand the dangers, the warnings that are there.

And as I was listening, it just struck me this is a legal holocaust to some extent,

what is being presented and what is happening in Holland and essentially what will come down the tracks here.

I do have a couple of questions here, which I can start with.

And if there are other questions from the floor, you want to come back on anything that is said, please do.

So the first one is, what can we learn from the Christians in Holland

and how they have faced the whole legislation process, how they face the ongoing issue today

and what can we learn from the Christian church?

Well, interesting question. Thanks for that.

Let me come at it from this angle.

Hope Ireland, I mentioned them earlier, but I didn't say a whole lot about them.

I mentioned that they had their inaugural conference at the RDS last June.

And I think they're a very new organisation, like they were founded in 2014 by Dr. Kevin Fitzpatrick,

who was a paraplegic since 1973 and he died in January of this year.

I'm getting to the answer with this now.

But Hope Ireland, they're an independent disability-led single-focus organisation.

They are affiliated to the Youth in Asia Prevention Coalition International.

And at their conference, they invited people from the Netherlands, from Belgium, from Luxembourg,

from the USA to speak about their experiences in relation to trying to oppose these things.

What we can learn from the Christians, there's a very negative lesson to be learned from Dutch Christians.

The Dutch, many churches in Holland, you can't say certain things at all.

Like, you'll never hear a sermon in most churches ever about sexual morality.

Because they've gone past all that now.

And a lot of the churches are liberal.

Even churches that we think are conservative evangelical churches.

There are Reformed churches in the Netherlands.

But mostly Dutch Christians are allergic to Reformed theology.

because of their historical experience of it.

Whatever that might be.

So, we have to learn that in our churches,

we need to continue to address ethical and moral issues.

The leaders of the churches, those entrusted with responsibility to preach and teach,

must hold it before the people.

Not all the time.

You know, we don't want to be, like, we don't want kind of anti-homosexual sermons,

you know, that are homophobic.

And we don't want to be known for just that.

But we don't want to exclude it.

You can't really speak about euthanasia in Holland now.

Many Christians accept it.

Because it's part of their normal lives.

And has been for a long time.

Going back to the early 1990s, late 1980s.

So, some people have grown up with that.

So, what we need to do is we need to educate people.

There was a lecture given in a Canadian university by some people who oppose euthanasia.

Before the lecture, they polled the people attending the lecture.

And the majority were in favour of euthanasia.

After the lecture, they polled them again.

And found that now a majority were not in favour.

They were influenced by what they heard.

When the option of palliative care was presented to them,

when the reality of where this kind of choice leads was presented to them,

they changed their minds.

And I think there is an opportunity to influence us as Christians

to help people around us in conversations,

wherever it might be, in the workplace,

in the college,

to influence people to understand

that this is actually very bad for society

and very bad for them.

And I think that's a good starting place for us as Christians.

Thank you.

Another question.

I guess it's driven from a liberal agenda.

Is there any economical benefit for those who practice assisted suicide

in terms of costs and things like that?

Is that an area that...

It's a business.

Yeah.

Death is a business.

And somebody asked me this during the break,

and I was explaining that, say, Dignitas in Zurich, for example,

is a wealthy organisation.

They are now allowed to go into care homes

to administer assisted suicide for elderly patients.

And that's a recent development.

But a lot of people who go from other jurisdictions,

especially to avail of the service and Dignitas,

are elderly people who live alone,

tired of life,

or have been just diagnosed with a terminal illness,

and they're afraid,

and they're afraid of pain,

or afraid of...

And they just feel life is not worth living.

They go...

They will sign over the deeds of their houses to Dignitas

and things like that.

So they do make a lot of money,

and they do charge thousands for this service as well.

So there is a definite economic side to it.

And a lot of the people who have been killed at Dignitas

have been cremated,

and their ashes were dumped in urns in a nearby lake.

And I'm talking now of hundreds and hundreds of urns.

And a nurse who worked for Dignitas reported this.

And the lake was dredged,

and these urns were found.

So that's the kind of death with dignity

that Dignitas are offering,

dumping you in a lake, you know.

I don't know.

I don't know,

but I know that they can avail of the service.

And I just don't know the answer to that question.

Sorry.

Sorry.

Just for those who are elderly and can't hear so well.

The question was,

what happens to those who are teens

and they request assisted suicide,

who's going to pay for that?

Yeah, you answered the question yourself, I think.

I don't really know the answer to that.

But, yeah, it's part of medical care in Holland now.

It's so common, you know,

that it's not hugely expensive.

It's not like, say, Dignitas,

or things like that.

Everything is expensive in Switzerland,

especially the Toblerone.

But,

but,

pardon?

The cheap and deal.

Okay.

Okay.

Very good.

Thanks for that.

Bear will be down.

For example, now,

a woman in the Netherlands

applied for medical treatment

that was very expensive.

Okay.

Some new medical treatment.

And she was disqualified.

She was told she wasn't eligible to have this,

that it was too expensive.

in the post by letter.

And the letter included a brochure

on assisted suicide.

The same thing happened to a woman in Oregon

who applied for medication,

which was, again,

beyond her means

and to treat her condition.

And she was sent a prescription,

an actual prescription,

for suicide pills.

This is where we're at now.

Who pays for 16-year-olds?

I don't know.

Just don't know the answer to that.

But I do know it's part of medical care,

so-called,

in the Netherlands.

One of the criteria you mentioned,

I think there were nine.

And I certainly want to get the list of them again

if anybody else is afterwards.

But one of them was that

somebody has to be terminally ill

before they are allowed to go through with it.

How do they actually assess

somebody who's terminally ill?

So, like,

if somebody does have cancer,

for example,

they may be told

you've got three months to live.

But equally,

they could say

you have five years to live.

That's right.

So at what level

or what stage?

Yeah.

Well,

initially,

the criteria

was that

you were terminally ill

and you had six months,

approximately six months to live.

But, you know,

diagnosis and prognosis

can be wrong.

And we all know,

I'm sure,

people who have been diagnosed

with a terminal illness

and they have,

they've lived

much longer

than the prognosis.

And we know

other people

who've been told

they've got two years to live

and they live for two weeks.

So you just don't know.

Good question.

But now,

it doesn't matter now anyway.

You don't have to be

even ill,

let alone terminally ill.

And you don't have to have

a prognosis of six months

or anything like that.

Yeah.

Kevin,

please.

Yeah.

Is there any body,

actually a body organisation

that's put in a way

to try to believe

who look like

they're imposing

these regulations?

You're saying

that they're totally ignored

but if we're,

we're not going to know

about this,

we're sure they know

about it too.

And is there any sense

of embarrassment

in their government

or in better professions

and is there any

organisation

that's been put in place

or was meant to be

at least to monitor?

Yeah,

there's an over...

Sorry,

I'll just repeat

the question again.

Is there a body

or an organisation

within Holland

and does the same exist here

to monitor

and make sure

that they are not

going down the route

that they are?

Just Holland

where it's being practised?

Yeah,

there's an oversight committee.

I kind of,

I'm tempted to laugh

at this,

it's so ridiculous,

but there are

an oversight committee

which consists of,

there are kind of

regional oversight committees

that consist of

doctors,

like two doctors

on the committee,

two lawyers

on the committee

and a philosophical expert.

Whatever that means,

you know,

and they're meant

to have some opinion

about the whole issue,

but you're not going

to be appointed

to a committee like that

unless you approve.

Doctors don't,

they don't function,

they don't work,

those oversight committees

don't work.

There have been

some prosecutions,

but those who've been

prosecuted

have got a rap

on the knuckles

and they've been told

they haven't got

sentences

or custodial sentences

or any sentences

and they've been told

just don't do that again.

Lots of doctors

in the Netherlands

don't,

when they're,

it's very bureaucratic,

assisted suicide

and euthanasia

and you have to

fill in forms

and ostensibly

to meet certain criteria,

a lot of doctors

don't bother

filling in the forms

and they put down

the underlying cause

of death

as something else

like pneumonia

or something like that

rather than

assisted suicide.

So even the statistics

that say 5,000 people

last year

were terminated

by euthanasia

and assisted suicide

and that doesn't involve

deep continuous sedation

which is another matter.

even those,

that 5,000

that we know about,

that's much less

than the reality

of what's happening.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Edie there,

please.

Yeah.

Trish.

I was wondering

if you have a

people with

and psychiatric

disorder

and the response

about

how does that happen

to people

to make decisions

to know

how does that happen

or is there

an incentive

to talk to people

who don't want

to be able to

accept

that there

to make decisions?

Yeah.

You don't want to

repeat the question?

No, you don't.

Okay.

So the question there

is what about

those who are

struggling with

a mental illness?

How do they reach

a decision themselves

about requesting

suicide

and how is that

monitored

and is there

anything in place

to assess that?

Well, obviously

for a lot of people

it's other people

who make those

decisions for them.

people

who might have

an elderly parent

who is suffering

from Alzheimer's

their distress

is an issue

that they present

to the doctor

and say

look, he's only

going to live

a short length

of time anyway

can we do

anything about this?

And it's accommodated.

The thing about

the Netherlands

is that

long before

euthanasia

was practiced

or legalized

it was widely

practiced

as I said

the research

was conducted

we don't have

this kind of

research in Ireland

we don't know

how many people

are being killed

or that

you know

what exactly

is going on

the Dutch

tell the truth

at least

you know

when they were

asked

the doctors

were asked

are you killing

people?

They said yes

and we've been

doing this

for 10 years

you know

and we want

it regulated

because we don't

want to be

criminalized

I'm not too

sure that

we would get

the same

kind of

response

in Ireland

but those

decisions

obviously

some people

don't have

the capacity

to make

a decision

and the

decision

is made

for them

it's a

kind of

a personal

sensitive

issue

for me

because

my elder

brother

he died

a couple

of years

ago

now

almost

and

he was

Down

Syndrome

and I

have a

sister

who's

Down

Syndrome

as well

and I

brought up

this Bourbon

biscuit

to tell you

a little

funny story

because

the whole

night

needs a

little bit

of livening

up

and

my mother

never bought

biscuits

at home

we had

an orchard

and she

always baked

apple tarts

and Ruber

tarts

and all of

that

and it

was lovely

and then

one

time

my mother

went to

visit

my aunt

who

oh yeah

my aunt

used to

give us

a tin

of biscuits

USA

biscuits

I think

it was

and they

had

these

Bourbons

you see

and then

one time

in June

my mother

went to

visit

my aunt

and my

aunt

produced

this

plate

of

biscuits

and it

had

and Michael

my brother

he reached

out

and he

picked up

the

Bourbon

biscuit

and he

said

ah

Christmas

and I

never

look at

a Bourbon

biscuit

without

thinking

of

Michael

and

that

story

and

but

you know

Down

syndrome

fetuses

now are

being

aborted

because it

can be

detected

and

so there

are very

few of

them

in the

Netherlands

and

should

one be

born

the

parents

have the

right

to say

you know

this is

too much

suffering

for us

and have

that life

that's

kind of

infanticide

euphemistically

redescribed

as euthanasia

other people

make those

decisions

for them

yeah

Ralph

at the

back

yeah

yeah

yeah

so

there's

different

countries

like the

Netherlands

different

states

in the

US

other

places

that have

gone

down

the

road

of

euthanasia

are there

any

examples

of

countries

that have

started

down

that

road

but have

pulled

back

very good

question

Ralph

and

to use

a medical

term

it has

been

suggested

that

the

situation

in

Oregon

is having

an

immunological

effect

that

other

states

in

America

are

looking

at

what's

going

on

in

Oregon

and

it's

preventing

them

from

going

down

that

road

because

what has

happened

in

Oregon

is an

unmitigated

disaster

one

woman

who had

a stroke

was

her

daughter

wanted

her to

be

euthanized

and

so

the

doctor

gave

her

valium

and

morphine

in

large

doses

and

when

that

didn't

work

he

used

a

magnet

to

interfere

with

her

pacemaker

and

when

that

didn't

work

he

suffocated

her

so

he

was

given

six

months

a

six

month

suspended

sentence

and

he's

now

practicing

medicine

so

people

are

looking

on

and

it's

preventative

in

that

way

but

there's

an

example

in

Australia

one

of the

states

in

Australia

I

think

it's

Queensland

you can

check

the book

I forget

now

they

introduced

assisted

suicide

and

you know

one of

the

doctor

death

people

Nichike

lobbied

for it

and it

was

introduced

but

they've

changed

the law

they've

gone

back

because

they've

seen

that it

was

just

terrible

what it

was

you

know

so

Australia

is a

good

example

Peter

Tim

yeah

cheers

tes

You

mentioned

I mean, you mentioned go hard on.

Should that be the, should the response of the churches be to encourage local members to go on for a general, generic heading like that and not to use our own names of such?

Or what should we do at the square as well?

Should we push harder than anything?

Even if we could be very nervous on referential worship and things like that.

Yeah, sorry.

So the question there is in regards to the Netherlands response to euthanasia, the church seems to be reluctant in speaking out.

So how is we, how do we as a church here in Ireland respond to that?

Is it better that we together come collectively, the evangelical church underneath an organization like Hope Ireland, is it?

Yeah, underneath Hope Ireland and yeah.

Okay, thanks Peter.

The Care Not Killing group in the UK, they're a broad coalition as well, an alliance.

They have Christians as members, like the Christian Medical Fellowship for example are members.

But they're really a kind of an independent group and they, they're a single focus.

I think it's very, the experience of Care Not Killing is very interesting because they learned over a long period of time that it was better to be a single focus issue group and not to be a group that focuses on abortion,

but it is a group that was better on divides against prohibits, euthanasia and assisted suicide and bioethics, embryonic research.

All that sort of thing.

So, and they also felt that the use of specifically Christian language was unhelpful in kind of winning the public debate, whatever we might think about that.

so I do think a coalition a broad coalition is needed and I do think that specifically

Christian language like sermonic kind of language about the issue might not be the most helpful

way of communicating we can still defend the ethical principles and the morality of this issue

knowing our basis our biblical basis and our motivation but not necessarily to to do that

the Hope Ireland I'm sure you wouldn't be banned if you're able-bodied but I've I've seen pictures

of them a lot of them are in wheelchairs so I'm sure it's it's open to people who are not

they're relatively new you could get involved with an organization like that or somebody should

really develop an association where you know we as evangelical Christians can comment on these

issues you know it's like very often you have fuddy-duddy people brought in on Channel 4 news

you know the case of Tony Tom Lincolnson who had locked-in syndrome it was very sad case and he

died since but Channel 4 has an agenda you know they've had very good agendas now they they

champion the cause of disabled people and but they also promote things like they had Terry Pratchett

in as well and they promote this issue you know of assisted suicide in euthanasia and they and

Tony Tom Lincolnson was used in that way a kind of a real worst-case scenario and they had some

fuddy-duddy vicar in to talk about it and they never seem to want to get somebody you know equally matched

in you know to kind of give the opposite view there is a media bias that we have to deal with you need to

be media savvy some people I forget the former Archbishop of Canterbury's name Carey the first

name can't won't come to me I won't call him Lord especially not today today is the anniversary of

the 2000 of the 1916 rising so we couldn't call him Lord Carey but I'm tempted to say William but he's

changed his mind he opposed vigorously he in the House of Lords he spoke and he opposed um euthanasia

and assisted suicide but he's changed his mind now and you have that kind of equivocation coming

from certain quarters which is very unhelpful yeah well it it seems to me that while there are others

like Hope Ireland who are speaking out that as a church we can't afford not to speak out um

ourselves individually and as churches together and I'm not sure if there's another question

here's just one more and how can we convince a non-believer about the sanctity of life

yeah um the secular world view has taken root hasn't it it's taken hold and we're definitely facing an

uphill battle but it's the work of God and uh the Holy Spirit can prevail and we're called to be

faithful in uh proclaiming the truth and communicating the truth to not necessarily through proclamation but

through conversation and through the way we live and uh but you know if it's about building relationships

it's about seizing the opportunities that we have to talk about the Lord and to share you know um

something about the value of life I think a lot of people are looking for community belonging hope

you know it's a bleak world out there without Jesus

um last one Graham thank you

is there a connection between abortion and euthanasia so where countries have legalized

abortion does it then follow that euthanasia is legalized um

abortion has been legal in the UK since 1966 it's a again a very good question because

the criteria for introducing abortion was again very strict it was meant to be a kind of a therapeutic

um intervention uh you know to save the life of the mother and that a side effect could be abortion

uh but now you know people have driven a coach and six horses through that legislation and um what you

have now is abortion on demand a form of post-sex contraception whatever the small print might say

that's the reality and you can look back then to abortion and you can look at the strict criteria

and how that event again was diluted and diluted down and and it has become now just

a casual thing and most abortions are not performed for medical reasons they're performed for social reasons

i'm going to just hold the question time there and formally bring the evening to a conclusion

and please do talk to kieran if you've got more questions do have a look at his book

um at a good offer tonight for 10 euro and again on behalf of us all just to thank kieran very much for

helping us in our thinking and begin the process of preparing ourselves for what is coming and

certainly for all the knowledge and um yeah just your discernment kieran tonight uh certainly thank you

so much indeed there's also a recording of tonight as well so if you go on to the carrigaline baptist church

carrigalinebaptist.org you'll find a recording um sometime tomorrow or even tonight if ralph gets to

it um so i'm going to close in prayer

um