No Person Will Ever Complete You

Well, hello and welcome to Crowd Church.

My name's Matt.

It's great to be with you this evening.

Uh, thank you so much for joining us, uh, wherever you are in the world.

Uh, I'm loving this, by the way.

The technology is not working already, but that's okay, that's okay.

Uh, Zoe has taken over.

So, so you're gonna have to do it manually now, uh, just so you know.

Um, welcome to the— welcome to the live stream.

Uh, for those of you don't know, if it's your first time with us, very warm

welcome to you.

Uh, we'd love to hear from you in the comments if you're watching on YouTube.

Uh, do say hello.

We are broadcasting from the UK.

We are an online church, uh, in a series called Jesus the Revolutionary, uh, and

we're partway through that, loving every minute of it.

To my left Uh, I've got the beautiful Anna, who's my co-host tonight.

Good evening.

Good evening.

Do you know what I was just thinking?

Is he going to go left or right?

And I was kind of concerned, like, just for anyone watching, we're on different

sides of a table here.

So I was like, am I on his left or right?

That really confused me.

To be fair, it doesn't take much on a Sunday night.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hi everyone.

It's nice to be here though.

Yeah, it is great to have Anna.

And on my right is the equally, equally talented and beautiful Dave Connolly.

How are we doing?

Good evening.

Great to be with us all.

All.

Absolutely.

Uh, so yeah, great.

Thanks for joining us.

We also have started doing this thing called Live Lounge, um, which you can

access by going to the URL.

I'll put it in the YouTube comments right now.

go.crowd.church/livelounge.

Um, if you go to that URL, uh, if you're so inclined, we have a Zoom room, uh,

with some beautiful people in there We've got Julie, we've got Rich and Ros,

we've got Kezia, we got Jan, we got Amanda.

They're all in there.

If you want to go and say hello and meet people, you would be more than welcome

to do that.

Otherwise, stay on YouTube and enjoy and join in on the comments.

Who've we got in the comments so far, Miss Anna?

We've got hi Darcy, hi everyone from Talita Ellis Murray as well.

It's just Talita.

Talita.

I was just trying to read the handle.

It's like come up and I'm like.

I cannot read that.

There's too many letters.

Technology.

No, it's a complicated handle.

People don't do that to me.

Yeah, we've got, we've got Talita and Ellis, uh, commenting, uh, just saying hi.

So that's nice.

Welcome, guys.

Yeah, we've got Julie, uh, Darcy from Canada.

Uh, Talita's from Brazil.

Yeah, we've got Julie who is from Liverpool.

Yeah, Dave's wife Julie, uh, good evening Julie.

Uh, she joins in the live stream just to double-check that Dave's given us sound

theology.

Um, and so if he's not, Julie will mention it in the comments, no doubt.

So, uh, Alicia's in there, welcome, good to see you guys.

Uh, thank you so much for joining us.

In fact, let me just check the mobile live stream as well if anyone's, uh, on

the mobile.

In fact, let me put go.

Oh, please don't want to hear us twice.

It's going so well tonight so far, isn't it?

Uh, so I'll put on the, because we, we stream to both vertical and horizontal.

So both to mobiles and to desktop.

Sorry, let me put the comments on both sides.

Um, there we go.

So like I said, uh, do keep going in the chat.

Any questions, any comments from tonight, please put them in the chat.

Uh, it'd be great for you to put them in there, guys.

If you're in Live Lounge, um, you can put them in the chat in Zoom and hopefully

they'll come up on the screen in front of us.

Uh, we've got Mr. Laplange.

I'm sorry if I pronounced your name wrong.

Uh, hi, I'm a newcomer.

Always welcome.

Always good to see you guys.

Um, yeah, any comments, any questions, put them in either on YouTube or in the

comments in the Live Lounge.

Uh, as we go through.

We would love to tackle those at some point or bring them in.

It'd be great to have them.

Uh, Will Sopwith's here.

Welcome, Will.

Good.

What a legend Will is.

Um, so yeah, uh, what was I saying?

Jesus the Revolutionary.

That's the season that we're in.

That's him.

That's the— and Dave's like, I'm not saying that, you can say that.

Yeah, yeah.

So we're in a series called Jesus the Revolutionary, looking at the

revolutionary teachings that Jesus brings us and what they all mean.

So get ready, grab your notebooks, grab your pens, as Dave is going to be

talking to us tonight, um, about this topic.

Anna and I are going to get into the conversation with Dave after he's finished

his talk.

I'd love to bring any questions that you've got, do put them in the comments.

But that's it from me.

Dave, over to you.

Wonderful.

Well, this evening we're going to look at when romance isn't enough.

Oh, I know, I'm sure you'll be taking notes.

And, uh, I'm anxious now.

Oh, now we do watch this one.

And I want to look at, um, what Jesus has to say about marriage and singleness

also, and his better design.

And if you've got your Bibles, you might want to look in Matthew chapter 19,

Matthew 19:1–12

verse 1 to 12.

That's what I'm gonna connect a whole lot of this to.

You know, we live in a culture that's actually fascinated by romance, and I'm

sure this has been so for, you know, throughout time, you know, as I know it

anyway.

From films to love songs, social media, dating apps, and we're constantly

presented with the idea that somewhere out there, there's someone who will

complete us.

And I want to challenge that thought this evening, so don't switch off, mate,

just stick with me.

Um, and I also want to, you know, premise all this by saying I'm a 69-year-old

male who's been married for at least 45 years.

I had to think about that.

That's why I was anxious, you know.

Um, for 45 years, as I would say, I've given Julie the best 3 years of Hey,

like, and, you know, so I am coming from a certain place, um, being a male,

being married for a long time.

But, you know, we have to have a starting point, and I want to say that my

starting point is that I try to operate from a, what I would call, a biblical

worldview.

And I'm saying that's my view, and you may have your own views and your own

experiences, but I would just say have a listen and, and tell me what you think.

We have limited time, so I'm painting very broadly, you know.

So as I said, um, you know, we're here, find the right person, fall in love, get

married, then everything will be all right.

That sounds like a line from a song, um, but this is a massive complex area,

isn't it?

Because what happens when romance isn't enough?

What happens when marriage doesn't remove loneliness when relationships become

difficult, when excitement fades, or when you are single and begin to feel that

everyone else has started living, you know, the high life, as it were, while you

are still waiting.

And, you know, these, these are important thoughts, and, you know, I'm not

trying to be any form of trivia over these things because it's real.

Because, you know, we can receive relationships as a gift without expecting them

to become the source of our identity.

And that'll be a big word that comes up through this about our identity.

Where is it?

What is it grounded in?

It doesn't have to become our sum total of security, and it certainly isn't our

salvation.

The Bible offers us a better perspective, I believe, Beginning not with romance,

but with Jesus.

And obviously, we'll use the word love a lot, and we have to put it out there

that, you know, there's lots of different types of love that we read about in

Scripture, and I'll try and be as clear as I can with that.

In Matthew 19:1-12, Jesus is questioned about marriage and divorce.

Matthew 19:1–12

Rather than simply entering into a debate, he talks to his listeners, and he

listens to what they've got to say.

Then he talks, but he leads them to creation and to God's original design for

man.

Jesus says, what therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.

A version of that is in Matthew 19:6.

Matthew 19:6

Marriage is more than romantic engagement.

It involves covenant.

It involves commitment.

It involves faithfulness.

It involves sacrificial love.

And my observation would be that our culture can sometimes encourage us to treat

relationships like a consumer contract.

If a relationship makes me happy, I'll stay in it.

If it becomes difficult, I will leave.

And let's be honest, if whatever friendship relationships we have, you know,

that, that cheapens them if we just work on the thing of if I'm not happy, I'll

leave.

If I am happy, I'll stay.

We have to work at it and we have to invest and we have to learn to understand

the other people.

That's all relationships, but Jesus calls us to something deeper than pursuit of

personal happiness.

Have you ever heard this said recently, or it may just be me, that, you know, I

hear this quote around me a lot, I have the right to be happy, and I'm like, I

don't know where that's come from.

I know we all want to be happy, but to say it is a right, I would challenge

that.

Jesus rather calls us to faithfulness.

What does it mean?

Let me say this.

It doesn't mean ignoring abuse.

It doesn't mean ignoring and excusing betrayal or remaining in dangerous

circumstances in a relationship.

I'm not talking about that.

Such situations require real wisdom, appropriate protection, and good pastoral

care.

Jesus challenges us to recognise that marriage is not simply about what we

receive; it's also about how we love, serve, and remain faithful.

The question is not merely, am I happy?

It's also, am I becoming more like Jesus in the way that I love, And, you know,

just so, so you're aware, you know, I have personal, um, experience of seeing,

you know, marriages break down.

As a church pastor, I've walked through this in many situations, lots of

different situations, but also, you know, in our own personal family, we've

experienced that.

And it is, you know, I understand the pain and, and the damage that marriage

breakdown does.

So I do have a little insight into that.

Just to continue, Jesus identifies the hardness of people's hearts as a reason

that Moses gives, you know, when talking about this subject of divorce.

As Jesus is talking to them in verse 8, he brings up what Moses talks about, you

know, when a person's heart grows hard in a marriage relationship, that is

grounds for a divorce.

Now we could go into a whole list of grounds for divorce.

In the Old Testament.

One of them was if your wife puts too much salt on your dinner, you have grounds

for divorce.

Well, none of us want to go back to that.

And it's better to taste the food before you put your salt on, I think anyway.

Anyway, that's something else.

Our greatest difficulties in relationships are not always caused by

circumstances.

Sometimes they actually reveal what is happening within us.

We ask things like, what am I getting out of this?

Are my needs being met?

Why should I keep giving when I'm not receiving?

But the gospel points us towards a different example, a different way of living.

If you were looking in Ephesians 5:25, it says this: Christ loved the church and

Ephesians 5:25

gave himself up for her.

And what we read about there, we're saying, you know, husbands, we are to love

our wives sacrificially, on their worst day and on their best day.

Just think about that.

Jesus demonstrates his own love through sacrifice.

He did not simply speak about love, he showed us what love actually looked like.

Christian marriage should be increasingly becoming a place where 2 imperfect

people learn to love and learn to love through their experience of Jesus.

It's a journey, it's an adventure, and it can be a bumpy ride.

And, um, but there's 3 people in a Christian marriage.

We should have Christ right at the centre of it.

We should be, you know, treating each other the way that he says he treated the

church and how he loved the church.

See, this means learning to forgive, not ignore, but learning to forgive.

Listening when it would be easier to argue, serving when we would rather be

served, and choosing humility when pride wants us to win.

You know, you can win the argument, and lose the relationship.

We will not do marriage perfectly because we've got 2 imperfect people, but

through the grace of God, we can grow together and walk in it with him.

And this principle reaches far beyond marriage.

Every Christian is called to reflect the character of Jesus, Jesus in family

life, friendship, church relationships, and everyday encounters.

One of the most important truths in this passage is that Jesus does not teach

that everybody must be married and you have to be married to experience a

fulfilled life.

And I know in church culture that it's quite often the way, you know, if you

start dating, it's like, when are you going to get married?

You know, even if you're thinking about dating, um, there's like this real

pressure, I think, in, in the Christian world, although— or there was.

Um, so one of the things I would say over that is in Matthew, um, 19:10-12,

Jesus acknowledges that not everyone will marry.

Paul, in, um, 1 Corinthians 7:32-35, he talks about singleness And singleness

1 Corinthians 7:32–35

can provide opportunity for undivided devotion to the Lord.

And I'd encourage you, if you're single, you know, and you think you're lacking

something, have a read of that.

I'm sorry, it's 1 Corinthians 7:32-35.

1 Corinthians 7:32–35

Yet, you know, sometimes in church, unintentionally, we communicate that

marriage, it's the destination for everybody.

You know, and we almost ignore single— singleness.

Um, singleness is like it's just a waiting room for Mr.

Right or Mrs.

Right, you know, to come along.

And that's a massive mistake.

And, um, your value— and I'd really just grab a hold of this— your value is not

determined by whether somebody has chosen you romantically.

Your value is found in Christ, and he loves you, married, single, divorced, or

whatever.

I hope that makes some sense.

I also want to just say that, you know, if you're single, I, I understand, you

know, um, you're probably saying, well, Dave, you're married, you've got

somebody to go home to, you've got somebody to share your life with.

Over the many years of being a church pastor and praying with people for life

partners, for husband or for wives, You know, I believe an observation that I

would, if I had to sum it up with, would be this.

Nobody is better than anybody because anybody can be the wrong body.

You know, I mean that wholeheartedly.

I know amazing women of God and men of God who have been longing for a life

partner, a husband, a wife, and they find somebody And their life just, in my

humble opinion, suffers for that.

We want the right person.

We want the God person.

We want the God gift to come into our life.

If you're single, you're not incomplete.

You do not need to wait for marriage before you can serve God.

Develop the meaningful relationship with God.

Use your gifts.

Serve in church.

Create relationships around you.

Make vital contributions to them.

You, as a single person, have a calling.

You have a place.

You're part of a God family.

And for some of you, it's here at Crowd.

For others, it's another local church.

Your life is not on hold until that person comes along.

Live for Jesus today.

I want to encourage you to do that.

If you are married, remember that single Christians are not outsiders.

Looking in.

You know, they are our brothers and sisters.

They're our close friendship community, and they have gifts and they have

contributions.

You know, marriage isn't an achievement that leads you into function in the

church.

We must stop measuring people's lives by their relationship status, as it were,

and start recognizing the God-given gift the God-given grace that they have in

them, whether they are married or single.

Romans 12:5 reminds us that, the Bible tells us that we're one body in Christ,

Romans 12:5

and individually we belong one to another.

We're not our own.

We're to be given to each other to serve, to build those really strong

friendship relationships.

And I know some of us watching this may have struggled with friendship.

We may have felt that we've been abandoned or misused or whatever.

This means that church should be more than just a meeting place.

It should be a family in which people are known, loved, supported, and

encouraged.

And that's a challenge.

You know, I've been a church leader, you know, most of my life.

And even though that's the goal, you know, for people to feel that are in a

place where they are loved, supported, and encouraged.

We get it wrong, you know, not intentionally.

We just aren't always able to give what— in fullness— what everybody, um, needs,

and sometimes on what they deserve, you know.

And I think people deserve better or more than what we offer.

We give our best.

We need one another.

I'm a— I love scripture where it talks about the one another's loving.

A single Christian should never feel that they must marry before they can truly

belong, you know, or before they can be part of our group.

We need to open up our groups to the people around us, to those single people

around us.

Yet their experience may be different, but they still have opinions.

They still hear God.

You know, we want We want the reality of what it is to have relationship with

each other, to know each other's story, to know and celebrate each other's

successes, and to share our brokenheartedness.

So let's ask ourselves some questions, you know, some honest questions.

Do we make room for people who live alone?

Do we offer friendship and hospitality?

Do we encourage relationships across all generations?

Do we create opportunities for everyone to serve and grow?

A healthy church demonstrates that belonging to Jesus is more important than

belonging to a particular social group.

We are not simply people sitting in the same building on a Sunday; we are called

to be the family of Christ.

Here's the heart of the message.

Marriage is a wonderful gift, but it's not our ultimate destination.

Singleness can also be a beautiful, fruitful gift, but it's not our ultimate

identity.

In Matthew 20:30, Jesus teaches, in the resurrection, people will neither marry

Matthew 20:30

nor be given in marriage, You know, our earthly relationships matter, but they

don't point beyond themselves towards a greater reality or a greater knowledge

of knowing God or understanding God or being with God.

Ephesians 5:25-32 uses marriage as a picture of Christ loving the church, and

Ephesians 5:25–32

Jesus is the perfect bridegroom.

He gave himself for his people.

He bore our sins, carried our shame, died in our place.

He rose again.

It's all about the sacrifice of giving for him as the bridegroom for his bride.

And that's a challenge, you know, for us.

Do we do that for our bride?

Through him, we can receive forgiveness and reconciliation with God and a new

identity.

This is why we must never ask another human being to give us what only Jesus

can.

You know, marriage is a gift from God, but it can very easily become an idol.

Children are a gift of God, but they can very easily become an idol in our

lives.

Any gift that God gives us, if he doesn't remain in the centre, it becomes an

idol.

You know, your husband cannot become your saviour.

Your wife cannot become your saviour.

Your children, who are a huge blessing most of the time, cannot be our saviour.

A future spouse cannot be your saviour.

Only Jesus can reconcile us to God.

When we look to another person to make us whole, we place an impossible burden

upon them.

You know, sometimes, I'm sure it's not said now, but Many years ago, I remember

talking to a lady and we were doing marriage prep with this couple.

And what I was hearing, I don't know if she was saying it, was, he's a mess now,

but when I get married, I will sort him out.

That's a recipe for disaster.

Yeah, I can't imagine that went well.

Yeah, that did not go well at all.

You know, Anna didn't say anything then.

I just want to make sure that wasn't me and Sharon.

Yeah, it wasn't you.

You know, it wasn't you, it was Sharon.

No, only kidding, only kidding.

But you know, it is really about keeping Christ at the centre, right in at the,

at, you know, where the rubber hits the road.

Um, when Christ is at the centre, we are free to love others without expecting

them to become our God.

Perhaps, you know, you're married.

Um, ask what, you know, whether your marriage is increasingly reflecting the

patience the forgiveness and the sacrificial love of Jesus.

And you know, on our, on our report, on my report card, I'll say it to you,

could do better.

I don't think Julie would say that.

I don't, don't, don't take it.

Today's good.

You know, perhaps you're single.

Don't, don't believe, don't fall for that lie that your life hasn't started yet.

And that you're not complete, that you don't have something to give.

Use your gift.

Use, use it to serve and build all that God has given you.

Be bold to share it.

Be thankful.

And there's nothing wrong in wanting a life partner.

Just don't let it become the core of everything that happens.

There's more to you than that.

Or perhaps you've been disappointed by relationships.

Maybe you've been hurt.

You know, and I'm not just painting over them.

Or maybe life hasn't turned out how you expected it.

Jesus does not promise that every relationship will satisfy our deepest

longings.

He offers us something greater, and that is himself.

And I'll just try and land this now.

He says, come to me, all you who labor and are heavy burdened.

And I will give you rest.

The Christian message is not that we must take ourselves and make ourselves

perfect.

That's God.

We're just to come to God and he will accept us where we are, how we are—

broken, lost— and he receives us and he will speak into those areas, but he

receives us as we are.

My friends, in just in closing, Christ is enough.

If you've got the best marriage, I want to tell you Christ is enough.

If you've got the worst marriage at the moment, Christ is enough.

And if you are struggling with your marriage, I would encourage you, get some

input, get some input, ask for help.

Romance is a gift.

Marriage is a gift.

It's not a weapon.

Singleness is a gift.

Family and friendship are gifts, but none of these are designed to take the

place of God.

Your relationship status does not determine your worth.

Your past does not have to define your future.

Your loneliness does not determine your identity, and your future does not have

the final word.

And I'm going to give some final words and then I'll hand back over to Matt,

because Jesus is the word.

So do not make marriage an idol.

Do not treat singleness as failure.

Do not allow culture to define your worth or disappointment to determine your

future.

Instead, look to Jesus.

Trust Jesus.

Follow Jesus and build your life around him because he is the one you can depend

on, on your best day and your worst day.

Bless you.

Oh, fab, fab.

Thanks though.

Let me move that.

Uh, thanks, Dave, for not the cup of tea over.

Um, love, love the topic.

Uh, love the topic.

And just to clarify something you said earlier on, It's 47 years.

Julie wrote it in the comments.

You were close.

Yeah, I was close enough.

Thanks, Anne.

Which is great.

Uh, so, uh, yes, how long have you been married?

Um, 13 and a half.

And the half is important.

Yeah.

Well, you know what, I guess when you've been married as long as Dave, you do,

they do begin to like, the years do blur a bit, don't they?

Oh, everyone's unique.

Everyone's unique.

I have to, um, To be fair, even I had to think about that.

I was like, 13 or 14?

13 still.

Yeah, 13.

Yeah, very good, very good.

We've been married 28 years, so I feel like I'm in, in the middle of you 2 guys.

Um, and, and the reason, uh, again, just to sort of come back to something we

said earlier, in our church, when you decide to get married, as Sharon and I

did, the general rule is— I say rule, it's more like a guiding principle— is you

go and see a couple who is older in the Lord, who's been married, and we do

something called marriage prep.

And I think it's probably the single best thing you can do in— if you are— if

you do get married.

And we did our marriage prep with you and Julie, which I still look back on with

utter fondness.

Um, but that's why I was just clarifying, like, it wasn't me and Sharon.

Sharon was great.

But I also quite like the fact that we've got like 3 different generations, as

it were, here in terms of marriages.

Like, we've got the long-term, the kind of like getting on a bit, and then like

a slightly newer marriage from me and Andy, although not brand new.

But yeah, I kind of like the fact that hopefully we'll have some, some different

experiences based on longevity.

Yeah, hopefully.

Yeah.

So any questions, any thoughts, any comments, do write them either in the chat

on the Zoom.

Um, uh, I can see in the chat actually Will wrote, uh, on in, in Live Lounge.

Sorry if you've joined us after the start, we have this thing called Live

Lounge.

There is a Zoom room where people are in there.

Uh, we're gonna go and chat in there in just a little minute.

But, um, yeah, in the comments that I can see from that, uh, Will said Kate's

rubbish at saving me, uh, in reference to your comment that, um, our spouse is

not our saviour.

Um, I don't know what you mean, Will.

Uh, Kate's lovely.

Yeah, it is an interesting one, isn't it?

But let's, um, let's turn to some of the comments here that we've got going on.

Uh, right at the start, actually, Ellis said, looking forward to this because

I've been single my whole life, so probably have romanticised, uh, have a

romanticised view on romance, uh, if you will.

Which you touched on, uh, that we live in a culture where actually romance is

romanticised.

True.

It's, it's like Hollywood, isn't it?

Yeah.

Like, it is that thing of like, oh, when I, when I get married or meet the one,

it's like going to be perfect.

Yeah.

Let me ask you a question then, uh, do you believe that there is just one person

for you to marry?

Like, there is just the one?

Because I know different people have different opinions on this.

I personally don't.

I don't believe there's one person.

And I think because I just don't believe that God's plan for our lives is that

narrow.

I feel like, what if you miss that one person or you miss that one moment?

You're like off track.

And I also think God is much more redeeming than that.

So I've got, you know, I'm at that stage of life in my 40s where I've got

friends who got married a long time ago and have been through marriages and

divorces and remarriage.

And I just think God is so redeeming.

Like, I don't think it's that narrow.

I think he can take your choices.

And if you're seeking to honour him and serve him and seek him and put him first,

I think he can honour lots of decisions in our lives, good, bad, and average.

Also, I think a marriage can start right and end wrong.

I've seen that happen a lot of times because of people's personal choices.

You know, people have affairs or make bad decisions, and, you know, does that

mean they married the wrong person?

No, maybe that just means that person made a bad choice.

Um, so yeah, I, I don't think there's just the one, but that's just kind of the

experience of time.

I just, I find it— I think the same with lots of subjects.

So I just think it can't be that narrow.

Yeah, but did you think there was just the one when you were single?

Um, I didn't think there was only one option.

I think, I think there was people that I definitely thought they're not— we're

not compatible, like either personality-wise or spiritually.

Or some of them were like, they're not compatible because we don't share the

same faith.

Yeah.

Other people have been more like, well, they're just, you know, not strong

enough personality.

I will push them around.

That won't be a healthy dynamic.

Yeah.

Other people, it's like, I just don't really like them.

See what I mean?

Don't want to go there.

Don't, don't name them.

Just don't say names.

But then, you know what, there was people that I've dated when I was in my 20s

that I think we could have made it work.

I think whatever reason, maybe just the timing, or because one of us or both of

us weren't ready or mature enough, it didn't work.

But if we met later, would it have worked?

Possibly, probably, maybe.

I don't know.

I— yeah, so I don't, I don't necessarily buy that.

But I think when you choose to commit someone— like, for me, I got married a bit

later, and I feel like— yeah, I feel like it was less about— I mean, Andy was a

good choice.

He has been so far.

Absolutely.

But a legend.

Yeah.

But I also think— I don't— I think if I'd met him when I was 21 it wouldn't have

worked because I think we were both too immature at that point in our lives.

So the fact that we met at 30, yeah, and got married at 33 was for us much more

compatible than if we'd met at 21.

I suspect we would have just gone in separate directions because he had stuff he

wanted to do, I had stuff I wanted to do, and I don't think we would have been

on the same page at all.

Whereas by your 30s we were like, oh, we both are ready to settle down, we both

want a family.

Yeah.

Um, you know, he'd, he'd been in bands and gigged and traveled and done lots of

stuff that he wanted to do.

Um, so I don't think he would have settled down with anyone in his 20s, to be

honest.

Um, yeah, I don't know.

You can always look over your shoulder and think, what if?

And yeah, I don't know.

But I, I, yeah, I don't think that God's path for our lives is that narrow.

I'd agree.

And I think, um, 2 points to say on that really.

If you're not married and you're in your 30s, you're not over the hill.

No.

Um, and the other thing is, like you, I, I, I, I think a lot of people put in

the comments here that they agree with you in terms of they don't think there is

the one.

The one thing that I would say in this, um, and, um, is whilst I don't think

there is just one person for you to marry, when you get married, there is only

one person to be married to.

Yeah, right.

And so you choose one person, you choose that one person, and you act like

there's that one person.

Um, Because I've— I, I remember, I remember we did this meeting once.

You might have been there, Dave.

We did this meeting, um, in, in the old building, and we— it was like a men's

encounter style meeting.

And I remember really clear— I don't get many words of knowledge in meetings,

but I remember really clearly in this meeting I got what we call in church a

word of knowledge.

Like, I just felt God had told me something.

And I, I was doing a talk, and I just said in the middle of talk, listen, I just

feel like God's laid this on my heart.

That there's somebody here who's having an affair.

God sees it.

It is not okay.

You have to stop.

And the guy came up to me at the end and he said, oh, that was me.

That, that was for me.

He said, but it is okay.

God's told me the affair's okay because I married the wrong person in the first

place, right?

And this person is the right person.

She's the one for me, whereas my current wife, which I am, I'm cheating on, is

not the one.

I almost wanted to knock him out.

Right, because I'm just like, how, how else can God get through to you?

Um, today, and he was convinced.

Um, so yeah, the point there is when people say something, it's, it's contrary,

he's committing adultery.

And I don't know his personal things, but God's not gonna okay something he very

clearly, yeah, says it isn't on, you know.

Yeah.

Um, sorry.

No, absolutely, absolutely.

I think it's a really, really important point.

In fact, Julie's put something in the comments.

Uh, which I thought was good to say.

Uh, Julie said some people move on from the relationship when the romance and

excitement has gone, and some people get married with the exit sign lit up just

in case it doesn't work out.

That's my wife.

That's your wife?

No, that's not— um, I mean, you said that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we would say that, don't you?

Yeah, we've done lots of marriage counseling type of thing.

And for some people, you can see they've identified their exits.

You know, when you go into a building, there's like fire exit.

Something doesn't go quite to their expectation.

And as they're talking, you know, we would say to them, do you— would say, you

know, you've already identified it, you're not trying to address it.

But I would go back, you know, is there one person?

That is so complex, isn't it?

Because you're not thinking that there'll be another person when you get

married.

Yeah.

Um, but I think for people who have been divorced— I remember speaking to a

young woman and she got divorced.

And in one sense, you know, she got divorced and she suffered all the pain.

And it doesn't matter, once that— whose fault it is, you know, you've got 2

broken people.

Yeah.

And I remember her thinking, can I ever get married again?

You know, she loved, you know, the Lord and And, um, and I'm like, you know, you

need to understand that God is gracious.

Yeah.

And kind.

And he doesn't want us to live in, you know, just under a judgment on our lives.

There is something of the grace of God that when the worst possible things

happen to us, yeah, whether it's by our own making, yeah, or by somebody else's,

yeah, there is something of his good of God's grace that we have to minister.

Yeah, not reinforce judgment.

Yeah, totally.

You know, and it is worth saying, isn't it, um, that whilst I would say my

theology is don't get divorced, if you have got divorced, God's grace is still

there.

You— there is still redemption.

Um, like you say, it's, it's, it's, it's not a sort of, um you can now no longer

be a, you know, active or involved in the church.

I think there's some— you have to be careful how you say it on a live stream,

don't you?

In, in the short time that we've got, there's definitely nuance around all of

this, but fundamentally there is nothing so broken that God can't redeem.

Absolutely.

And we don't— you know, we understand, you know, if you're in a broken

relationship and you're being abused, that's not okay.

Yeah.

You know, and, um, you know, we would encourage you to get in a safe place, make

yourself safe, yeah, and then look to address the issues.

And, and, you know, we've prayed with people who have been in broken

relationship, and God has done a wonder outstandingly, you know.

And one comes to mind, it was impossible.

It wasn't broken, it was in micro pieces, if there's such a thing.

And yet he did.

And then we've seen other relationships, you think it'd be so easy to restore

this, but there's not been the heart.

There's been the words, but yeah, the hearts have changed.

I think that's such a key thing because when it comes to marriage, my experience

is that anything, almost anything, is fixable.

Not everything, I'm not going to say everything because there are certain

abusive cases like we said, but most things are fixable.

But it needs 2 people in the marriage to want to work at it.

And I think if either partner's heart isn't in it it's very hard to fix it.

Like, I've got friends who desperately didn't want their marriages to end, but

because the other half wasn't willing to put in the work in counseling or not

prepared to work at it, you've got nowhere to go.

So I suppose it's just to lift off that shame that it's not like working hard

alone that can fix marriage.

You've got to both be in it.

Totally.

But me, I would totally say though that if anyone's struggling in a relationship

or marriage, that it's just— I would always say go and get support and advice

and counseling really early.

Like, I think don't leave it till you're at crisis point.

And that this is something me and Andy have learned.

Like, we, we struggle quite a lot in our communication when we went through a

season of like grief and baby losses.

And, um, we just kind of processed in quite different ways, and we just weren't

really sort of communicating that well.

Um, and we went and got some help from a Christian therapist that we knew, and

it was so helpful.

And it put stuff in about that season, but it's also taught us good stuff for

every season.

But I would just say it's so helpful, like the marriage, um, course that you

talked about, Matt.

Yeah, it's so important to get those foundations in before you hit kind of rock

bottom.

And actually, as soon as you hit a bump in the road, yeah, go and talk about it

early.

Don't wait until it gets really bad or until one person's like halfway out the

door before you get any help.

Like, I just feel like, be humble and just ask for someone's help early.

That, you know, makes such a difference.

The marriage course gives you a bit of a connection, doesn't it?

You know, when you take people through it.

I mean, we still speak to people who— I don't know how many, I have no idea.

Julie will know how many, how many couples we've done.

But you can almost see it's— people say, what's the best thing about it?

And I think you sat at the table and you— there's an opportunity for you to

take, um, to share openly.

Yeah.

You know, and if you take it, and I think most people did, yeah, it was great.

And people think, oh, I didn't know you didn't want children, or yeah, yeah, I

didn't know you wanted 23 children, yeah, or I didn't know you want to live in,

you know, New Zealand.

Yeah.

And that's the first I've heard of it.

So it creates opportunity Yeah, it does.

Well, I think it also creates a connection.

So there will be people we haven't seen for, for a number of years, and if

they're having some issues, um, they'll— they contacted us.

Yeah.

And I think that's what— I think it does build a connection.

Yeah.

Um, that is bigger than time and distance.

Yeah, it does, you know, because it's quite personal, isn't it?

It is.

Sorry.

And I would say that, you know, you know what, I think what you just said then

is really important.

You know, just going through that season enough was enough to cause, you know,

for you to say, well, I've got all this going on, I don't have time for

counseling.

But, you know, well done.

I mean, that's all about humility and everything.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely it is.

Can we also just pick up the subject of singleness?

Because I know, like, we talk quite a bit about marriage, haven't we?

But obviously there's been quite a few comments, yeah, about singleness as well.

Yeah.

And I— and so Yeah, and I just want to await both of them because I'm aware lots

of people on the feed will be single as well.

And yeah, I just love that whole sentiment of what you talked about, Dave, which

is that like, we're just not— we're not defined by our relationship status.

And for me, that's kind of the key thing that I took away from this talk.

It's like, if you're married, kind of keep God the centre.

And if you're single, keep God the centre.

And it's not really about whether you're in a relationship or not.

Fear that, you know, you can have— you can be single well, can't you?

Yeah.

And you can struggle being single, and you can thrive in a marriage, and, and

you can struggle in a marriage.

It's not like one is better than the other.

And, you know, I've, I've got experiences of being quite happy and content

single and also struggling being single.

And I've got, yeah, seasons where marriage was easy and seasons where marriage

was hard.

So I get it.

And it's like none of those things Yeah, is the thing.

Yeah, like it's keeping God the centre and that's the key.

Well, let me ask this thing.

One of the questions: I struggle a lot with loneliness and lack connections with

everyone around me.

How do you stop idolising marriage when the relationships you have aren't

fulfilling and don't satisfy you?

That's a good question.

Who wants to hit that?

How do you struggle— how do you stop idolising marriage?

Obviously when you're single because you're lonely.

When the relationships that you have aren't fulfilling around you.

And actually, let me tie that into a point that Jan raises, because she said in

her experience, most of the pressure that she felt was from Christians who did

believe that marriage was the ultimate goal.

And so I guess on, on one hand, you've got relationships around you which aren't

satisfying you Um, you do idolise marriage.

There is the thing in Christianity, especially 20 years ago, which was very much

marriage is a really cool thing to do.

Um, and I was single during that time.

Yeah, I really felt that.

So I do appreciate it's real, but I would say like, yeah, I mean, I, my

experience was I was single all through my 20s, pretty much.

Like, I dated a bit on and off, but I was, you know, mostly single.

Um, at times found that difficult, partly because of the pressure around me,

like, you know, from family who wanted— you know, my dad wanted grandkids.

And but part of it is also like that spiritual pressure of like, oh, you know,

you've got to get married.

And also being a woman, like, time's ticking.

If you want a family, you need to get married, you know.

And all of those things can like They're real pressures, aren't they?

But like, my experience of singleness was that actually when I had a number of

years where singleness was great, and it was because exactly that, that these

verses from Paul, like, I had more time to serve God.

That's right.

Yeah.

And actually when I kind of got my attitude on marriage right and I was like,

when God wants me to get married, he'll bring someone in my life who's right

fit, and I'm not going to stress about it.

Yeah, and worry about and, you know, beat myself up about it if there's no one

around right now.

I'm not, I'm not going to make it the idol and my main focus, like constantly

pining after this thing that I haven't got in my life.

And actually, what can I do now that— and this is a really useful question— what

can I do now in singleness, even if I'm hoping for marriage in the future?

How can I live now in my singleness that makes the best of this season?

Because when I'm married, Like, and this is really true, once you're married,

you won't have that time again.

Yeah.

Um, and in my 20s, I lived for a number of years in, um, a kind of big shared

house with like 7 or 8 other young single adults.

Some of them went to church, some of them were not Christians, some were people

I worked with and others worked with.

And we had like over a sort of 5 or 6 years that I lived there, we had a bit of

a revolving door of different people.

People got married and moved out, other people moved in, and it was just a great

community of like lots of single people living together.

Good percentage of them, I think about 4 or 5 of them at any given time, were

like Christians.

Several of them became Christians who lived there during those years, um, and

are still walking with God now.

And I, I, yeah, I just, for me it was like the best way to disciple other people

and yeah You know, like, as a, as a married 40-something, I can't sit up till 2

in the morning talking to one of my lad, you know, kind of housemates who's

like, tell me about Jesus.

I can't have those conversations now as a kind of married woman who's, you know,

got kids at home.

Like, but then it— I don't know, for me it was a really exciting season because

I was able to serve God and just really live in close proximity to people in a

way that I don't now.

Like, yeah, yeah.

So I don't know, for me it was a real season of fruitfulness actually when I got

my head straight with it and was like, you know, what can— how can I make the

most of this season of my life knowing that it probably won't be forever?

What can I do, God?

How can I make this an amazing season?

And, you know, practically as well, like go traveling, do missions.

Like there's lots of cool stuff you can do for God.

But yeah, even just the simple day-to-day living up close with people.

Yeah, who— you, you can't do that once you're like married.

You're only living with your spouse and your family.

Yeah, you were intentional though.

Yeah, yeah, intentionality is a really good word.

Yeah, intentional.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, we got married in, in the late '70s, and in church you sort of did that,

you know.

I think Julie was 18, um, I think I was 21.

Wife, something like that.

And, um, and it— you didn't get married just because that's what you did.

I'm just saying that was the culture, you know.

And, um, but our experience would be, I think, you know, it's, it's hard, isn't

it, through what lens at any given time and what angle that, you know, you're

looking at life.

But I know, you know, on like, we would— oh, a lot of single people live with

us, um, And that wasn't because we thought we're the best mum and dad in the

world, or, yeah, or, you know, they weren't lodges, they had to be part of our

family type of thing.

But on a Sunday, um, in, in church, we would have lots of people come around

after church, and that's how we got to know them.

And lots of them were students, lots of them were single people, some of them

were married people.

But it's about just becoming part of that community, you know.

And, um, that's a really cool It is opening the door.

Yeah, yeah.

More making room, I would call it, you know, making room at your table.

Yeah, people, we don't invite you because you're married.

We don't invite you, you know, to be a representative of the singles.

We just invite people because they are who they are, you know.

And I think you have to value yourself.

Um, but, you know, here, Anna talked about the intentionality of what she did,

and you can still long, you know, for a marriage partner.

But get on living life whilst you're waiting.

Waiting isn't a passive thing.

Yeah.

You know, you don't sit down wishing your life away.

No.

Live the best life that God has got for you in the moment whilst you're waiting.

Because you know what?

When that person you're looking for is looking for you, and they'll say, there's

a godly man, there's a godly woman, because if you're a Christian, That's what

you want to be marrying.

Yeah, a godly man or a godly woman.

Yeah, yeah.

I, I— listen, when I was single, I took that time just to study the Bible on

what a good husband should be because I knew— I wrote a book about it.

Don't ever read it, but I, I, I, I did.

And I, I— that was my whole Bible study because I knew I wasn't going to be a

good husband.

That, you know, I became a Christian when I was 18, lots of, um, baggage, shall

we say.

And I did— I was very intentional with that time, um, you know, study this out.

And the other point you've put— and Talita's put this in the comments— the

importance of community in single life, right?

Um, because it can be really lonely being single.

And that's what I loved about living with other singles.

Yeah, it was like that.

Yeah, we created a community, and then loads of other singles used to come and

hang out in our house.

We'd have like lots of— but you and Andy still carry that on, right?

So it's different though, having kids and being a bit older.

It is responsibility.

It is.

But you— I think you guys are still quite— and, and we're the same, me and Shaz.

And I know you do.

We still like want to build community, and we still have people come around who

aren't married because we need them to be part of the family, right?

And, and look out for them.

Yeah.

Um, and, and make sure that they're not isolated and lonely.

And that's on us, right?

Like you say, making space at the dinner table is super important, and it's not

done out of an obligation or, or, you know, law or whatever, or just trying to

meet more Christians.

We, we open up our table, our homes, out of thankfulness, really, and to build

relationship.

And you have lots of different types of relationship.

You know, there's some people Um, that, you know, you might see for a period of

time.

But if you've got history with people, you pick it up.

Like, yeah, I see Han mainly here now.

You see it at the school gate.

Yeah, not, not when she was— no, we haven't got kids that young.

There's grandkids in your case.

Yeah, you know, um, and, and, but when you, when you build something together,

it's, it's not fragile.

So when we, you know, um, before, you know, before we started this evening I was

talking to Anna about a book, and, you know, and I see Matt a bit more.

And, you know, when you build valuable relationships, you can pick them up.

Yeah, you might be distant for X period of time, but you just pick them up

because you've got something valuable, you've got something solid.

Yeah, so true.

Um, we've got like 2 minutes.

Okay, who wants this question in 2 minutes?

What is the idea of dating according to the Bible is one of the questions in the

comments.

Because I think it's Cassia has written that.

Sorry if I mispronounced your name.

Uh, what is the idea of dating according to the Bible?

Does it support it?

You'd have to look— you'd have to be a bit more specific with the— in the Old

Testament and New Testament, there are similarities.

Um, but I don't think, you know, we're talking about different culture.

Yeah.

Um, but if a, a guy so There's a number of different ways of doing it.

You, um, you could have like the arranged type of marriage, um, I'm talking very

broadly here.

Or if you saw a, a young lady and you had feelings, you know, you may not even

know her, you know, and you, you would start to make inroads to build something.

And then you have a betrothal, which we would call engagement, and then you

would go away and you I'm talking generally here in a Hebrew thing.

You would go away to your dad's house where you live and you'd build a room on

it.

Yeah.

And when your dad said that room was good enough for your wife to come to, then

you could go and marry her.

That ties into the second coming as well, by the way.

You went away to prepare a house.

Yeah.

For your bride.

Yeah.

That's attached to your dad.

So yeah, and it was your dad who said it was good enough.

Yeah, you need to bring your bride to.

Oh, uh, so in short, yeah, make some sense of that.

Yeah, yeah, over to you, Anna.

Um, how do you make sense of that?

Um, yeah, I mean, it's a good question, but I, I think the point Dave's kind of

making there is that you're not, you're not kind of comparing like for like in

terms of the cultures.

You're looking at the Middle Eastern culture culture thousands of years ago

versus modern Western culture today.

It's a world apart, isn't it?

Like, people, you know, girls would get married very young in that culture.

You know, you didn't go to university and live as a single.

You weren't a professional woman in your 20s the way I was.

Yeah.

Um, that just wasn't a thing.

Women didn't even read or couldn't, you know, quite often couldn't get a job.

And, you know, that wasn't a thing back then.

They weren't financially— you went from your father's house to your husband's

And that was it.

Kind of.

It's a different culture, isn't it?

Completely.

So I think, I think dating is a modern construction, like in our world, but I

don't therefore think it doesn't have value.

But it has to be done with boundaries.

Yeah, I think it's the way you do it.

Yeah, I think you have to do it with purpose, with intentionality.

Going back to that word, Dave, prayerfully, not messing people around, just

dating for dating's sake.

Yeah, it's about honouring someone, like the same principles.

Like, like, oh, I might be interested in this person, are they interested back?

Right, let's dip our toe into this, but do it in a really honouring, careful way.

Yeah, yeah.

And with intentionality.

And yeah, and probably accountability to other people that you trust as well.

Super important.

I think that's really important, that if you've got those people around you to

talk about those, you know, he's asked me on a date, or I'm thinking about

asking her on a date, yeah, whatever it is.

And I think And they, you know, good friends will bring up the— they will

challenge you.

But I personally would say it's— the Bible does give us a bit of a steer.

Like, it talks about— I know it's not solely about dating, but, but not— I don't

want to offend anybody, okay?

But it does talk about not being unevenly yoked, you know.

So if you're a Christian and you're, you know, wanting to live in the fullness

of God and you marry somebody who isn't a Christian then you are going to have

issues.

In all the time of being a Christian, I only know a friend, a good friend of

mine, he started dating his wife just before me and Julie started, um, dating.

And he is probably— he became a Christian when they got married, but he's

probably the only one I know.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, and I think that is a— can be a bit of a challenge.

But be prayerful, really be prayerful, you know.

And I know, you know, Men are, I would say, a little bit different, you know.

I think they are thinking about a wife, you know.

But ask God, you know, don't mess around, treat her well.

Yeah, you know.

And if you realise, oh, she's not the one for me, treat her well and separate

well.

Yeah, be kind because she'll be someone's wife even if not yours.

But I also think, like you're talking about uneven yoking, I also think it's,

it's true that you're often spiritually unevenly yoked if you're— one's a

Christian and one doesn't believe in God at all.

Um, but I also think you can be unevenly yoked even if you are Christians,

actually.

I just think you can— like, it goes back to that incompatibility thing.

Like, somebody wants to go and live in New Zealand and someone wants to stay in

England.

Like, that's not going to work, is it?

Like, there's lots of reasons you can be incompatible.

Yeah.

And on that bombshell, I'm going to interrupt because I said 2 minutes.

I said 2 minutes, 10 minutes ago, and you two have just gone off on one.

So it's a topic we could talk about for ages.

So we are going to carry on the conversation in Live Lounge.

If you want to come and join us in there, we would love to talk to you, um, in

the Zoom room.

Uh, you just— you do need Zoom.

Uh, the link is go.crowd.church/livelounge.

It is right early on in the comments.

So if you're on YouTube and you want to come join us, if you scroll right up to

the beginning of the comments, uh, you will find it in there.

Um, but a great conversation, love that.

The key takeaway, of course, is you're not defined by your relationship status,

whether married or whether single.

Walk a life worthy of the calling of the Lord, and that's the best place to be,

whether single, married, or in between, dating or not.

Um, but yes, that's good.

I'm going to close it there because you two will just carry on.

Um, so, and Zoe wants to go practice her driving now.

Um, make sure Zoe's on the tech, by the way.

Uh, make sure you like, subscribe, and connect with us and all that good stuff.

Of course, if there's anything you want to know, you can find out everything you

want to know about Crowd Church on our website, www.crowd.church.

Uh, we have prayer meetings on Monday, prayer groups.

We have midweek community groups.

We've got an Alpha which is going on at the moment.

If you want to find out more about Christianity, you're still welcome to come

join in on that.

Those things are all on a Wednesday night.

Details are on our website.

We've got some in-person meetups coming up, one in Chester, um, and one in

London.

Um, information about that's on our email.

If you're on the email newsletter list, uh, you'll be getting the details of

that.

Just scroll down, uh, it's in the sort of the PS of the email.

Um, so love to meet you there.

Like I said, we're going to hand over to Live Lounge, but Um, next week, I think

it's Mike Harris next week.

It is, I think.

Is it?

Yeah.

So we got Mike talking to us next week.

Um, be great to see you there.

But, uh, yeah, hopefully you got a lot out of this.

I did.

Super encouraged.

Um, but it's been great being with you, Dave.

Thank you.

Pleasure as always.

Anna, thank you.

Thank you.

Absolute legend.

We are going to end the YouTube livestream here.

We will go and chat to the guys in Live Lounge.

Hopefully see you in there.

But if not, God bless you.

Have a great week.

Until next time.

Bye for now.