Conversation - with Pastor Robby and Pastor Jared - Seeing the Invisible - Overcomers - Week 6

Welcome to the Church of the Lakes Kingdom Conversations podcast.

At Church of the Lakes, our mission is connecting all to Christ to become healthy in God and courageous in love.

In 2026, we're emphasizing a kingdom mindset in all of our ministries and missions by being more like Jesus and countercultural in our living.

Today's podcast dives deeper into our current sermon series, Overcomers, a study of the book of Revelation.

Join Pastor Jared and Pastor Robbie as they talk about trusting in Jesus who has overcome and claiming that hope and strength as followers of the King.

Be blessed.

Welcome to another Kingdom Conversation.

I'm Pastor Robbie Strock.

And today we're working through our study on the Book of Revelation, in which we're calling it Overcomers.

And this week we're diving deeper, going into chapter 13 in the book of Revelation.

And really, I think the overarching theme for today is essentially one of culture shock.

Because the reality is our culture and our faith in Jesus Christ, they just don't go hand in hand.

And kingdom-shaped lives, as we've tried to focus on this year, even on this podcast and in our sermons, are uniquely to be lived out in contrast to the culture that we not only experience, but we live in, right?

So to help us unravel this chapter a little bit further, the theology, the application points, a little deeper is my friend Pastor Jared.

How are you doing, Jared?

I'm doing well.

Looking forward to another conversation with you.

Yeah, because we get to dive a little bit deeper once again.

We've kind of coupled chapters 12 and 13 together.

Of course, theologians will call this a part of the interlude of the vision of John.

And uh, I was just, you know, let's look back a little bit, Jared.

You know, could you walk us through, even though we got into Revelation 12 last week, and now it overflows into 13, can you give us kind of just a quick synopsis of things we should remember before we dive deeper into these two chapters?

I'd love to.

Um, I think the simplest way to understand these chapters is that Revelation 12 reveals the enemy behind the conflict, while Revelation 13 reveals how the enemy operates in the world.

Okay.

So uh again, chapter 12, John pulls back the curtain.

There is a cosmic spiritual conflict.

Uh in 12, we encounter the woman, uh the child, and the dragon.

The child is Jesus, the promised Messiah.

Uh, that is evident.

The dragon is explicitly identified as the devil, as Satan.

And in Revelation 12, the dragon attempts to destroy the child, but Christ is victorious.

Um Satan is defeated, Satan is cast down to the earth.

Uh, yet knowing his defeat is certain, the devil turns his fury against the people of God.

I've said it often in this series is that the devil's goal is to disrupt the purposes of God and destroy what God loves, namely people, his people.

And so chapter 13 is really how Satan wages war against humanity, uh, represented in the beasts, the beast of the sea and the beast of the earth.

Uh, beast of the sea is really a terrifying looking uh creature in description, uh, but represents worldly power and in worldly systems that oppose God's kingdom.

Uh, we can probably see that a lot in just, again, the political systems of the day.

Uh the beasts of the earth, later identified as the false prophet, is just that, it's a false prophet, uh, represents deception uh that at times successfully persuades people to give their allegiance uh to the powers of the demonic of Satan.

And that brings us to the infamous mark of the beast uh in Revelation 13 as it closes out.

Um I don't believe John's primary concern here is getting Christians to identify some future technological device that's going to mark us in a physical manner.

I think he's more concerned with allegiance and worship.

Uh, you know, it talks about the mark of the beast on the forehead and on the hand.

Yeah, yeah.

To me, it's it's who owns your heart, who shapes your thinking, who determines how you live.

And that's why, if we can dip into Revelation 14, just at the beginning, because I think it has to go with 12 and 13, uh, we see something really important.

Uh John ends 13 with that number 666, the mark of the beast.

Chapter 14, it begins with John showing us another group of people.

And it is a group of people that bear the name of the Lamb.

So what you have are really two competing allegiances.

The world uh wants to mark us with its values, but Jesus has already claimed us as his own.

When he shed his blood at the cross and we received that for our salvation.

So the question isn't simply whether we recognize the beast in our midst.

The question really is whether our lives reveal to the world where the beast is that we actually belong to the Lamb.

So that's how I would kind of summarize Revelation 12, 13, and a little bit of 14.

Okay, so with that in mind, would you agree that culture is constantly trying to mark us then, uh, separate us from the love of God?

Um all the time.

Okay, so so with that.

All the time.

And and we can see that in how the beast is operating in 13, correct?

Okay, so often though, when we talk about culture, it's almost like we're talking about something that's outside of us, you know, something that can't affect us, uh, it can't mark us, it can't mess with us.

But look, the reality is is we too often probably are active participation uh participants in it, right?

So, so okay, so how how are we to critique culture as Christians?

Look, because we could become self-righteous, we we could have kind of like this arrogant, uh, egotistical view about, you know, how how are we supposed to critique culture?

Because we're no, we know we're not supposed to be of culture, but you know, we're we're certainly immersed.

In the world, but not of the world.

Yeah, I love that.

Yeah, okay.

Um you have to begin by acknowledging, okay, we're our context is America.

Sure.

So what often when we criticize culture, it's not Eastern cultures, it's it's Western culture.

It's it's America.

But we have to acknowledge that we're not actually standing outside of culture looking in.

We're actually swimming into it, if I could use that illustration.

Okay.

Uh culture is just simply uh what it shapes what we celebrate, what we fear, what we spend money on, what we consider successful, uh, even what we believe is going to make us quote unquote happy.

And Christians are not immune uh to being distracted or tempted by the allure of our culture.

Um, and here's why I think Jesus' words, maybe in Matthew 7, uh could kind of be fitting, and that's when he talks about removing the plank from your own eye before you remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Uh before I I, if I can put me as a the person, before I can begin identifying everything wrong in the world in which I live, I need to invite the Holy Spirit to reveal what the world has already formed in me.

Uh in my sermon uh uh that goes along with this podcast, I talked about, you know, my first point was be careful what's forming you.

Um, you know, is it the things of God uh or is it the culture in which we find my find ourselves in?

So that's where I would start the conversation is Holy Spirit.

What in me has the world already been forming that I need to repent of and I need to to pivot and turn back to you.

Um for instance, it's easy to uh condemn materialism while constantly wanting more.

Yeah, isn't that funny?

That is true, certainly American.

Yeah.

It's easy to criticize the world's obsession with political power while wanting to control ourselves.

Right?

It's it's easy to condemn pride while believing we're spiritually superior than everybody else.

Again, that's why cultural discernment must begin with repentance.

Okay, must begin with Holy Spirit reveal to me where I am off base.

So we got to start with the self.

Start with the self because it has to be congruency in self with the word of God before we can start judging the incongruency in our culture.

Interesting.

And this is where I think we've been talking a bit about sanctifying grace over the past couple of weeks.

Sure, yeah.

And this is where I think this fits in here.

You know, the Holy Spirit doesn't simply expose the brokenness around us, the Holy Spirit exposes the brokenness within us.

Okay.

And then graciously and willingly transforms us if we so choose to allow it to.

Uh, you know, so we critique culture best when we do so with with conviction, with humility, remembering that we're people who desperately need the same grace that we're proclaiming the people in our world and culture need.

So we can stand firmly with truth for truth without standing arrogantly over people.

Thanks, Sherrill, because I think oftentimes we sound as if we're being condemning of culture, but it's really a reality of how we know we're supposed to be separate from it.

Well, so let's dive a little bit into the subcultures.

You make it it seem almost like the illustrative form of like being in a pool.

All right.

So if a culture is technically uh the water that we're immersed in, okay, like can we talk about one section of the pool?

You know, there's a deep end, there's a shallow kiddie end, and then there's the laps of the lane.

Okay, so let's talk about the subculture of Christianity, okay?

Because if culture is constantly trying to disciple us, how how are we to distinguish between something that is genuinely Christian conviction, whether that's from the Spirit or from Scriptures, uh, versus something that's just something from our Christian inherited particular subculture?

Um, does that does that make sense as a question?

To me, that's a really important question.

Okay.

And the reason I say it is because sometimes we can we do we confuse our Christian traditions, preferences, and cultural expressions with biblical truth.

Yeah.

And those are not always the same thing.

Um here's an example.

Uh we might have strong opinions about worship style, clothing, political positions, educational choices, or even what a faithful Christian family should look like.

But we need to ask the question is is this actually what scripture requires, or is this simply what I've grown accustomed to?

Uh three ex three helpful questions maybe to address that and discern that.

Uh is is this Christian, is this piece of Christian subculture rooted in Scripture?

Okay, so not just a verse pulled out of context.

We do a lot of that, uh, but consistent with the broader witness of Scripture and with the broader character of Jesus.

Another way is does what I'm engaged in as a subculture produce the fruit of the spirit within me?

Okay.

Like, does the conviction lead to me uh uh finding a greater depth of love, holiness, humility, patience, faithfulness, so on and so forth?

Uh finally, another question would be does this reflect the heart of Jesus?

Like, am I becoming more like Christ or simply more committed to the customs of a particular group that I find myself navigating in?

Um John Wesley emphasized that genuine Christianity is really a religion of the heart expressed through holy love.

And I I think that's really another important note to make.

Uh, we can be deeply committed to Christian customs while becoming increasingly unlike Jesus.

So Jesus confronted that very problem among the religious leaders of his day.

If you think of the uh rabbis and the Pharisees and the Sadducees, you know, they were sometimes more committed to their traditions than they were to the heart of God.

Yeah.

So Christian uh maturity isn't measured by how well we conform to a Christian subculture, it's measured by how deeply we're being conformed to Jesus Christ.

Uh that doesn't mean traditions are bad.

No, not at all.

Not at all.

They could be guardrails, but it does mean every tradition must remain accountable to Scripture and to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

And I I think we see this in in politics in America today with Christian groups on both the right and the left.

Um neither groups are 100% biblically congruent.

Neither groups are 100% biblically incongruent.

You know, but they have become so fixated in their camps politically that they ignore maybe what some of the scripture says about another issue that their particular camp uh uh you know uh because champions.

And it's because they come become fixated on the guardrails, like you talked about.

Is that is that a fair way to Yeah, or they they just become very settled and comfortable within their their subculture.

Okay.

That they're they're they're putting they're they're intentionally putting on blinders when their subculture is doing something that is inconsistent with with biblical principle and narrative.

Thanks, Sherry, because like that's something that like I really struggled through as I waded through the you know, as as we kind of talked about an expanded culture, I couldn't help but think of looking in the mirror a little bit with the Christian subculture.

And uh we know there's a lot of positives when we get together and um as not just uh uh specifically the our local faith family, but as the family of the Church of Jesus Christ, and what does that subculture look like and how we might be deceived in some of that?

Um of what I said earlier, you know, it's just it's it's sillier stuff than maybe politics, like worship style, dress code.

Yeah, but we all know how those things became what casserole you're allowed to bring to a church pilot.

You know what I mean?

Like that's just okay, where's any of that aligned biblically?

You know what I mean?

Yes, but we've gotten comfortable in this Christian subgroup that it's become a main thing, that you have to do X, Y, and Z if you're gonna be considered, quote unquote, a Christian.

And I'm like, hold on a second.

Let's not let's stop drawing those lines where we're drawing those lines.

Yeah, well, thank you.

Thank you for the honest reflection and our ability to maybe point a mirror back at us a little bit.

So um another thing that I I kind of want to examine a little deeper is Jared, you had this amazing part of your sermon where you talked about almost sevens, right?

We you already kind of through your synopsis told us, you know, a little bit further.

Once again, I'd encourage people to go back and listen to the actual sermon if you haven't listened to it yet.

But you talked about how um oftentimes in life we can settle for the sixes, which are as close as you can get to seven.

It's an almost seven.

And not be seven, yeah.

And not be seven.

And and so that idea really suggests that you know good things can become idols.

Notice I didn't say bad things, I said good things, right?

Yeah, they can become idols when we expect them to give us what really only God can.

That's the only time we actually get the seven.

So so okay, this idea of good things.

How do we know when something like career, family, ministry, how about political involvement, how about success, or even you know, the church, how do we know when we've crossed that line?

How do we know that we're at the good, the almost seven?

How do we keep the right balance?

Um it's uh it's it's always an almost seven when you take a creative thing and make it the ultimate thing.

Like, you know, example this, you know, you know, a lot of people I know wish they were married because they know if they they could just get married, they they would their life would be complete.

Well, you've just taken a created thing and made it an ultimate thing.

And by the way, you've also put a really heavy expectation on the person you marriage that they're gonna be able to complete you.

And and and we're all fallible, you know what I mean?

And so that's an almost seven.

Marriage is an almost seven, but it's a good thing.

It is but it becomes a bad thing when you make it an ultimate thing.

Uh children, same thing.

Uh I know couples that have struggled to have children, and they know that they could just have a child and start a family, their life would be complete.

Well, you've put a heavy expectation on that child to complete your life, and they were never meant to complete your life.

Only God can mush to your point.

That's another almost seven.

You've taken a creative thing and you've made it an ultimate thing.

And you've used other examples like you know, success and career and I I I do that that number, that number six, six, six, is an infamous number in scripture.

And you know, over the years people have wondered what that looks like.

Is it a tattoo across your forehead?

Um, you know, we talked a little bit about that a moment ago.

I I I love the way Pastor Matt Chandler and Overcomer talks about six six six being the most complete incomplete thing.

Yeah, isn't that great?

Because because another number of completion in scripture is not only seven, it's also three.

Yes.

And so there's three sixes, that's complete, but it's a six, not a seven, which is incomplete.

So it's the most complete incomplete thing, which is really um a neat way to look about it.

And so what I would say that if if you're looking at a created thing to bring you ultimate fulfillment, contentment, satisfaction, a sense of worth, an identity, uh you're you're chasing after an almost seven and you're setting yourself up to be disappointed.

You're gonna be disappointed.

Because the only one that is the only one that has the capacity to be everything you need that thing to be is God Himself.

We were created for God, whether you want to believe that or not, and so all of our fulfillment, contentment, satisfaction, completeness when it comes to identity is found in relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

Um yeah.

So from an application point, and I put you on the spot here, buddy.

I'm sorry.

Um if someone has been elevating, idolizing a specific area, a specific person, a specific thing in their lives, the first step is to go back to your original question about repenting, right?

The self-examination and go back.

Is that is that where we're where we should constantly be re-evaluating, constantly being illuminated by the spirit as to what what we might be doing that with?

I I love the question in terms of um trying to discern this this is what I would say about you know, are you taking a creative thing and making it an ultimate thing?

Here are some uh maybe reflective questions that can help you to ascertain and discernment.

That's great.

What happens in your heart when the good thing is threatened or taken away?

Okay, so uh if if you're feeling like you literally lost a limb, right?

You might have made a creative thing an ultimate thing.

Here's another one.

Do you experience disappointment and grief, which are natural, or does your entire identity collapse because you've made that thing ultimate?

Oh man, Jared, I've been there.

I mean, that's that's you and me both with running.

Yeah, this is a good thing.

I was done there, you know, senior year of high school.

I I my whole identity was in running and I was doing really well.

I was moving towards breaking records in my school.

Indoor track, I woke up one morning, my knee was the size of a basketball.

My complete, my, my indoor and outdoor season completely thrown in the toilet.

And I I I had a crisis of identity in that moment.

Because the thing I I made, the creative thing I made an ultimate thing had disappointed.

And so I was left, in a sense, despairing.

Now I was able to come out from under that, but it definitely was really revealing to me.

Yeah, and it's like oh wow, I just I just done something I shouldn't have done.

And it's funny, like uh you got there quicker than I did, because mine would just shift from one thing to the other, and uh it would be from something I was doing and having success in, whether it was school or music or running, and then it would shift to uh the person I was with or the person I wanted to be, and then like it it took me a long time to realize and go back.

Um thank you.

Yeah, I think to give another let me give another question.

Yeah, yeah.

Uh this is a good this is a real good one, and you help you discern if you've taken a creative thing you've taken a creative thing and make it an ultimate thing.

Am I willing to compromise in order to keep it?

What do you mean by that?

What how does Am I willing to compromise Christian conviction in order to keep this thing that I want?

You might have made a creative thing an ultimate thing.

Because the Lord's never gonna ask you to compromise conviction, right?

And that's another way.

So so if maintaining success requires here's here's uh maybe the live-in illustration.

If if um maintaining success requires compromising integrity or protecting my comfort requires disobeying Jesus, then I might have crossed the line.

And so career.

How many people make career a creative thing and ultimate thing?

Their identity is in it, and they say, Wow, this this mistake just happened, but if I let them know I've made this mistake, then I'm gonna lose my career.

What do I do?

I try to hide the mistake and uh you've just made your career a creative thing and ultimate thing.

And I'm not saying those decisions are are easy to No, not at all.

That's not what I'm hearing.

In fact, choices to make, just the opposite, right?

But um, but those are ways that you really can give your A gut check, so to speak, to see if you've made a creative thing an ultimate thing.

Thank you, Jared.

I I I just wanted to make sure that uh we were trying to be somewhat practical because there's just this tension here.

As you said earlier, you know, Jesus calls us to be in the world, but not of the world.

Yeah.

Uh so so and what well, one more thing to say with that, because I I don't want to, like you said earlier, they're not saying these are bad things, these are good things.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And they are, but but I think looking at the gospel narrative, the solution isn't necessarily to abandon those good things, it's it's simply to put those good things in its proper place and order.

Okay.

Jesus sixth Matthew 6 33, seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you as well.

Okay.

That's the proper place when it comes to these good things that we often will sometimes have the tendency to make ultimate things.

So then how do we faithfully engage culture uh with that idea of making God the first thing?

Like you said, because you know when we put God first, there are moments where we can feel isolated.

Um, there are moments where we're gonna be at, you know, culture is gonna ask us to try and assimilate, to uh to conform.

Yeah.

Um so what does faithful cultural engagement actually look like then?

Um let me go to Jesus.

He gives the pervasive perfect picture in John 17.

Uh it, you know, it's the priestly prayer before he's arrested and betrayed and handed over to be crucified.

Uh in John 17, he prays for his disciples, saying that they're not of the world, but he also makes it clear that he's sending them into the world.

Yeah, okay.

So so the Christian calling, it isn't isolation, it isn't assimilation, it's incarnation-shaped mission.

Okay.

I mean, th think about Jesus Himself.

He entered into our broken world, ran fleshed himself with our humanity, he ate with sinners, he touched lepers, he engaged people who were culturally and religiously marginalized, but he never compromised his holiness.

And that really is a model for us today.

You know, we don't withdraw from the world because we're afraid of being contaminated by the world.

No, no.

We don't all we also don't surrender our convictions simply to be accepted by the world.

Oh, okay.

But I I I think with our emphasis of being kingdom builders within our circle and flu uh circles of influence, this really fits perfectly.

That God has intentionally placed us in neighborhoods, in workplaces, in schools, in relationships where we are called to be His witnesses.

And we cannot witness to people that we're not really engaged with, uh, but our engagement needs to be distinctly Christian.

Uh, we we gotta bring truth without hostility.

I've said that before.

We have to bring conviction without cruelty, we have to come with courage without arrogance, grace without compromise.

I, you know, I remember not that I want to, you know, air dirty laundry from seminary, but I remember classmates at seminary talking about when they engaged the world, uh, they would talk like the people they were trying to build a relationship with.

And a lot of times that was with very colorful language.

And I'm thinking, I don't think that's how Jesus wants you to go about being a witness.

You know, that you relate so much to them that you you you know you start wearing what they wear and talk the way they talk.

That's not it.

It's not uh a compromising of all of all the Christian convictions in order to reach this person.

Jesus tells us we can reach people if we live authentically the Christian life.

But again, we do so um knowing that that it is grace that has saved us, and it's the same grace that is chasing after them through us.

So, of course, being counter to some of the people and culture that we find ourselves in, I think it's fair to say that we're gonna find ourselves in hard moments as Christians.

Okay.

So we often think of persecution as we read in the Bible uh as something like super dramatic and obvious, but let's be real, in America, that's not as prevalent as say in Africa.

Like you just got, you know, from uh mission this summer, when you came back, I'm sure the persecution, you know, that we read about that's uh uh in the Christian world in Africa is uh you know life and death in some instances.

I mean Nigeria, I wasn't in Nigeria, but Nigeria right now, in fact, our our listeners need to pray for the church in Nigeria.

They are under heavy persecution uh from from their their government.

Um that is very much uh militantly against the church.

And I mean, tens of thousands being being slaughtered for their faith.

But once again, you know, here in America, maybe not as dangerous a threat physically, but we are persecuted, are we not?

Uh we're we're persecuted, and perhaps our threat maybe is that of comfort or distraction, materialism, you already said, the desire to be liked.

Man, man, that is a huge one for my generation.

Uh how do we combat that then?

You talk about persecution.

Um I I don't know what I would call what were going on in America, but here's what I do know the devil has game film on humanity for thousands of thousands of years.

So he knows, given whatever context we find ourselves in, what's gonna be most effective.

What's gonna be most effective.

And I I think, you know, maybe Nigeria it's it's it's the heavy hand of persecution they're enduring.

I think in America, I I think we'll be we're being lulled to sleep by a satanic lullaby.

You know, in it it's much to what you're saying in terms of um d being distracted um by by uh the appeals for comfort, being distracted by the allure of of shiny things or of amassing wealth in our bank accounts.

Um that might be comfort and distraction for the American church may be the greatest danger that we have faced in our 250 years of history.

Um, you know, many parts of the world, as we've said, following Jesus comes at an obvious cost.

Yes.

Uh but in America the temptation is often so much subtler.

Like we can profess a faith in Jesus while arranging our lives around, like I said, comfort or convenience or entertainment or personal success.

And the danger in all in it all is we can become spiritually compromised without ever actually deciding to reject Jesus.

Talked about that in my sermon.

We just become too easily distracted.

Uh we become busy.

I mean, I every person you talk to, I it's kind of a pet peep of mine, and I intentionally don't do it.

But every guess how you're doing, they'll say good but busy.

Everybody's busy.

It's like busy's become this God to the American people, even within those of us in the church.

But we get distracted by busyness by uh accumulating things, by pursuing success, by filling every moment with entertainment.

I mean, when was the last time you sat in silence and just tried to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit, right?

And so little by little, what happens is our appetite for those things supersedes our appetite for holiness or for God.

In fact, not only supersedes it, actually causes us to have a diminished appetite for holiness and for God.

And that's why if we can go back to the beginning of Revelation, the the letter that Jesus writes to the church in Laodicea to me is so uh sobering of a warning to the American church.

I'm I think the American church is Laodicea.

Right?

They're wealthy in Laodicea, they're comfortable, they don't believe they need anything.

But Jesus says to the church, you are spiritually impoverished.

Uh I think that a guy a lot as a a pastor in the suburbs of America, we man, we have beautiful buildings, don't we?

Yeah.

Uh even in our church, we have effective programming, we have strong attendance, we have all kinds of resources.

Uh yet I I wonder, do we still lack a desperate dependence on the Holy Spirit?

And if we do, how do we combat that as a church?

And that's not only a question for me to answer, that's a question for the whole church to answer.

You know, we started, you know, uh instituting the altar call at the end of our service, invite people to come up front to kneel uh in maybe an act of surrender, an act of confession, an act of of gratitude, or an act of just seeking healing.

But but I think that's part of maybe making us more dependent on the Holy Spirit is we're gonna bow and bend our knee towards our Creator, our Redeemer, our daily sustainer.

And so that to me has really become an important piece of our worship service.

Um that we're providing space for people to really submit to the Holy Spirit in their lives in again, any any manner.

Uh surrender, confession, gratitude, uh seeking healing.

Well, I wanna I want to make sure that we're intentional about this transition that we're about to make with this next question, Jared, because you've already done it for us.

But I want to emphasize it over and over and over again because we read 12, we read 13, and then our attention shifts in chapter 14 from this mark of the beast to the name of the lamb.

Now, do Christian disciples uh I think do you think we become healthier when we spend less energy really identifying what we're against and more energy becoming the kind of people who look like Jesus, right?

So, how do we practically apply that then?

So, because I want to make sure, you know, it's not just uh personal self-reflection on what the beast is leaving.

I want to talk about the mark of the lamb.

I want to talk about what the spirit's doing in our lives.

I want to I want to talk about how Jesus' words and actions we can actually apply that so that we're really marked by the blood of Christ, right?

Um how do how do we practically do that then?

Instead of trying to identify what we're against, how how do we identify what we're for then?

I just, you know, going back to the the series we did in the beginning of the year on the Sermon of the Mount, like read that that five, six, and seven out of Matthew, chapters five, six, and seven so much that it becomes assimilated into you and that you actually live the ethics of the kingdom.

Remember, the kingdom, the sermon of the mount is not giving us uh a checklist.

A checklist.

Well, it's not giving us um ethical and moral living in order for people to come into the kingdom of God.

That we were saved by grace, not by works, right?

So so what what the kingdom uh or sermon on the mount is doing, it's saying if okay, you're a Christian, there's the assumption.

This is how you live.

Not do these things to become a Christian, but you are a Christian, this is how you are to live.

Okay.

And I think in terms of the practicalities of life, to actually live out the Sermon on the Mount, to love those who persecute you, yeah, you know, to forgive those who've done the unforgivable to you.

Yeah, to be salt and light.

Uh, you know, salt is is not only um salt adds flavor, but it preserves also it also preserves, right?

Um in things like that.

I I do love the idea of the contrast between the mark of the beast and the name of the lamb.

Uh when we go from 13 turning to fourteen.

Uh something I mentioned was uh, you know, there's these moments in in Revelation as John's is is is seeing through these windows uh into the the the future, uh there's a point where he becomes almost despairing.

Like for instance, Revelation 4, he's uh given a vision of heaven, he sees the throne room where the throne is, and there's somebody on the throne, and in his hand he holds the scroll that is bound by seven seals.

And the scroll, as I've been saying, is is God's purpose is meeting their appointed end, but it's bound by seven scrolls.

And uh John looks in heaven on earth and under the earth, and there's nobody found worthy to open up the scroll to break the seven seals, and he's be he's begins to weep.

And somebody in heaven says, No, no, look again.

And he looks again and he sees the one who is worthy, the the the lamb who has been slain, who now stands, the the lion of the tribe of Judah.

He is worthy to open the scroll.

We're in this moment again here.

We come to the end of 13, 666, the mark of the beast.

And the next three words in chapter 14 are then I looked.

Then I looked again.

He's looking.

So so when you find yourself in in the midst of despondency or despairing, just look again, look beyond 666, looks beyond the beast, look beyond the temptation, look beyond the persecution, and there you will see the lamb.

And he talks about the lamb.

Uh uh, not only does he see the lamb, he sees 144,000 around the lamb, which is another number of completion.

It is, and they have on their bodies the name of the Christ and the name of the Father in heaven.

And I I I think in terms we don't literally have Jesus written across our forehead, but I often wear a bracelet that says WWJD on it.

It's the way I, in a sense, mark myself as a Christian.

And you can't believe the number of conversations I've gotten into people who've looked down and have seen that WWJD bracelet.

One time I was in Vegas back in March, you know.

Uh I, you know, um what we talked about this in the past.

Uh uh, you know, Vegas is sin city, it really is.

But but a woman tried to proposition me, and I really wasn't engaged in in really trying to humor any of what she was doing.

Just I was being kind.

And at one point she saw my bracelet and she asked about it.

And I was able to tell her about the Lord and how he's delivered me from things in my life that I know how I know he could deliver her.

And it was just it was this awesome moment where quote unquote the mark of the lamb on my wrist uh was a tangible witness that was then able to, I was able to then give a verbal witness to to who Christ is and what what Christ has done for me in terms of salvation and deliverance.

I I is that where you're going with the question?

Yeah, yeah.

I just want I just want to be very intentional about reminding people about the hope that we are the overcomers and those who abide in the great overcomer and the line and the lamb, as we've studied so far in our study.

I I just want to be very intentional about the name of the lamb uh being so much higher and above the mark of the beast.

Um, because we can fixate on uh the numerology that's going on here that John's, you know, and and and but we really need to, as you have said so beautifully, to look again, to to look deeper, to to look for the Lamb in the midst uh of the world.

And I I like what you said, you know, we're not necessarily anti-culture.

We're not what we are is pro-Jesus.

Yes.

And I think this again is where sanctification from our heritage as a Methodist is so beautiful.

You know, grace isn't simply keeping us from sinning.

What grace is actually doing is transforming us into the likeness of Christ.

So the goal isn't merely to avoid the mark of the beast.

Like you said, the goal is to reflect the character of the lamb.

In fact, I would argue in America, uh we could probably stay away from the mark of the beast, but that doesn't mean that we're the mark of the lamb, right?

I mean, we can become distorted and still like you said.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Um, yeah.

So so Revelation 14 wants us to keep the main thing, the main thing, keep our eyes fixated on the lamb.

Yeah, and then then live a life that embodies the characteristics of the lamb to such a degree that people take notice in in an endearing way.

And they want to ask, why are you different?

Why are you so generous with your money?

Why do you spend your weekends swinging a hammer for a habitat build?

Why do you go overseas on a mission trip and use your vacation in that manner?

Uh man, how is your marriage still together?

In America, marriages end after five years on average.

Why are you still together after 25?

Um, man, your kids seem really squared, squared away.

What w what's your secret?

You know, and so on and so forth.

And then you can engage.

You know, living your life in such a way where those around you want to ask the questions as to why.

Well, now you have a captive audience to say, let me tell you why.

And you have the opportunity.

And you have the opportunity.

Even if it's on the strip of Las Vegas, it's on the strip of Las Vegas.

I don't think I gotta ever go back to that place.

But but if the Lord wants me to bring more people and free deliver people from bondage, I'd rather go back every day.

Amen.

Well, uh, thank you so much for your time, Jared.

You know, next week, um, I think we're gonna um do something a little different different.

We'll come back to Revelation the week after that.

Um, but you know, we kind of unveiled a new ministry here at Church of the Lakes, and I hope that you and I can talk a little bit further about it on this.

The advocacy it is.

All right, I'll go over in Sierra Leone.

And I I really want to be intentional about our study on Revelation on how we feel God is calling us to move deeper and farther into relationship with those people in Sierra Leone.

So I, you know, um I hope people come in and and tune in with our uh not only our worship next Sunday, but also as we kind of uh unpack what a little bit of that vision looks like uh between you and I.

It's look you know it's being intentional with living out the the X18 model ministry, you know, be being the the witnesses of Christ's love uh locally, regionally, and globally, and how important each of those um concentric circles are.

And I think that fits in with our sermon series.

Very much so.

It certainly does.

So I, you know, I I don't think we're getting off track, but uh we'll certainly um be able to uh uh look further into the visions as we get ready to wrap over uh up overcomers over these next couple weeks.

But uh please come back and and check us that and check that specific new ministry out next week.

And uh um yeah, and thank you, Jared, for providing us insight into these really difficult chapters that are captivating.

Um, but oftentimes uh we need to look again and look for the lamb, right?

So uh but uh I want to also thank uh Betsy, who's our director of communication.

I want to thank Len Brown, our editor and encourager.

I want to thank my wife, Stephanie, for getting this up and running our social media platforms.

And if you want to reach out, please submit a question.

Send me an email at podcast at churchtelakes.org.

We'd love to answer your questions right here on this podcast.

We'd love to hear from you, hear any suggestions that you have.

And of course, before we go, I want everyone to remember that it's our mission as followers and disciples of Jesus to connect all to Christ, to become healthy in God and courageous in love.

And until next time, God bless.

Thanks for listening to this episode from Church of the Lakes with Pastor Jared Priestett and Pastor Robbie Stride.

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