Beyond The Message: Mental Health, Faith, and the Power of Connection

Welcome to Beyond the Message, a midweek space where we continue the conversation from Sunday's sermon, unpacking context, exploring your questions, and growing as we listen, learn, and follow Jesus together.

My name is Grant Harris, and my guest today is Michael Douglas, who is the CEO of Equipment Mental Health Services, which is part of us here at Windsor Park.

And for those of you that were here on Sunday, we got to meet Michael for the first time.

Preached a great message about connection and belonging.

This is Mental Health Awareness Week as well, so that's why we focused on that on Sunday, and we are talking more about that today.

So great to have Michael along.

It's a little bit different of a podcast because this is the first time you've been part of our podcast here at Windsor Park.

And so we want to get to know you a little bit more.

We got some good stuff from you on Sunday, but we want to hear a little bit more of your journey because at the end of the day, who we are is kind of important and it often is worked out through our work.

And I think that's the story for you.

So we'll kick off with you, Michael.

You talked a little bit about your your early life and some of the challenges that you had as a child.

Um maybe just kind of tell that story again, perhaps.

And then I'm interested because it was a bit of a tough story, but you've ended up in ministry and that always doesn't happen like that a lot in some ways.

How did that shape you for a life kind of serving in the church?

Which was a salvation alley.

Yeah, cool.

Um yeah, so look at as I was talking about on Sunday, um, you know, I grew up uh in a I grew up in Mangadi and uh my my dad worked for um Pan American um and um he he he was an alcoholic and um and I I guess I've got two distinct kind of memories of dad.

He passed away uh about 13 years ago and um but I've got two distinct memories of my early childhood.

One when dad wasn't drinking, and so you know he was a generous kind of guy, and um you know we never really wanted for anything in terms of uh, you know, the things, the the basics of life, uh a roof over our head, and you know, he provided for us and those kinds of things, and you know, he he loved his car and you know he would do things with us and things like that when he was sober as a distinct memory.

But then the other side of dad, a bit like Jekyll and Hyde, was when he was drinking alcohol and and for my dad, you know, he wasn't happy drunk.

Unfortunately, for my dad, he was uh a very violent um alcoholic, and uh while most of that was directed towards my mother, uh obviously my sister and I got caught up um in all of that uh as well.

I guess it wasn't until I was I was an adult and kind of understood you know dad's upbringing and you know his his father, my grandfather was an alcoholic.

Um my dad grew up in Belfast in Northern Ireland during the Troubles.

He was in the British Army and so served there.

And so working in mental health now, I understand that for my dad there would have been a lot of trauma in his own life.

You know, he was a brave young man coming out here in the 50s on a ship from England with 10 pounds in his pocket and the promise of a job by himself, and but there would have been a lot of trauma in his life, things he'd seen um uh in in Belfast and Northern Ireland, and there was a lot of hardship there.

So certainly not an excuse for his um his his alcoholism and um the way that he beh behaved, but certainly as an adult, some understanding there would have been trauma there for him, perhaps a lot of it undiagnosed being the 50s, 60s, and 70s.

So kind of growing up in that environment, um, you know, a lot of violence in the home, police around all of the time, um, and um, you know, very, very afraid as a young kid, often hiding under the bed and all of those kinds of things, thinking that was my um kind of safe space.

Um, and my parents um eventually, you know, mum stayed for a long time, but eventually when things got so bad and and the violence started getting directed towards us children, mum left and and they separated, but that didn't stop all of that trauma because you know he would come around and and break in and uh steal stuff and the police continued to come and you know you kind of lived in fear around walking outside or to school because you know he would be around in the car and all that kind of stuff, and so you kind of growing up uh with all of that was uh pretty pretty difficult um kind of childhood.

You know, I had good friends and and did reasonably um well at school, um, but yeah, grew up grew up with a lot of anger towards dad, which I spoke about uh briefly um on Sunday, but um that that really impacted um me and he uh my dad ended up on the Salvation Army's Rotora Island several times.

So our early connections with the Salvation Army before I went anywhere near um one of their churches as a young adult was remembering the Salvation Army helping my family um with food and um those kinds of things, and I guess in terms sometimes people talk about um hero stories, and I guess my earliest memory of the Salvation Army was kind of in the context of a hero story.

Um we had to escape one night in the middle of the night um because of the violence, and so we took nothing other than the clothes that we had on, and we went to my grandmother's in Waihee, which means as a little six, seven-year-old, all of my toys and my sister's toys were all in our house, and so my earliest memory of the Salvation Army um was a man that came to Waihee in his fool, they used to wear uniforms with hats and all that kind of stuff, um, was a was a Salvash Nami man who arrived at my grandmother's with all of our toys and things from our house, and so for a little kid that was kind of like a superhero because this stranger had arrived with all of our belongings and things, which is which was amazing.

And years later, I tried to track down who that person was, um, but I was never able to.

But I guess my early connections with the Sally's were around that kind of stuff, so they I kind of had some trust for them, and then we moved next door to the Sally's, as I talked about on Sunday at Odahu, and I could hear the youth group over the fence, and so because we'd moved away from our natural supports, I really had no friends in Otahahu, and so phoned up the Sally's and started attending that youth group.

And for me, there was something different about those kids at that youth group because many of them hadn't grown up in the lifestyle like mine, and so perhaps that was the initial attraction.

But as I got to know them and they kind of welcomed me in as this kind of broken kid into their own kind of family, um, there was something about the young people that was very different to my own life, and it wasn't long after that I began to hear and learn about um a God who loved me and and and Jesus who died on a cross.

And I guess at that age in my life, those things really, really impacted me and gave me hope in a sense of um kind of having spent much of my life um kind of feeling a little bit hopeless and where did I kind of fit and kind of what was the lot in life given the experience I'd had.

And so I think I think all of those things do shape you.

So I think probably, you know, if there are people who work in social services or you know, who are psychologists or or anything like that, uh it would be fair to say some of those cliche things about me would be true.

I've been impacted as an the eldest child of an alcoholic, so carry some of the the the baggage of that in the context of who I am, um, and so over-responsibility and you know, concern and care for others, and um, you know, uh all of those kind of cliche things I've kind of grown up grown up with and taken into adulthood.

But I think coming to faith was important around that for me because um I kind of um you know obviously got set through free when I gave my heart to the Lord and you know decided to follow Jesus for the rest of my life.

And I guess one of the most impactful things, and I spoke briefly about it on Sunday, was um seeking my dad out in a boarding house in Newmarket because of what God had done for me, wanting to kind of um I guess um bring some restoring and healing to that relationship with him.

And for all I knew, when I knocked on his door and burst into tears, um, you know, he might have rejected me in the moment.

I had no idea what would happen.

Um, but he kind of burst into tears too, and then from there we were able to kind of mend and repair some kind of relationship.

He was always an alcoholic until he died at 83.

Uh, but as he got older, the violence dissipated in terms of his alcoholism.

And so, you know, he was able to have something of a relationship with his kids.

Um, and and as I think about him, to put him in a good light, you know, there were some good things I learned about him because I was old enough to have those two distinct memories about his generosity and his um his mateship with his mates and those kinds of things, which I think are uh probably some maybe some good traits that I've learned from him as well to leave dad in a good place.

So yeah.

Now you touched and you only just touched on it then, and you only touched on it on Sunday, but I think it's super f profound.

I often talk about one of the greatest uh challenges that we have spiritually and emotionally and mentally is the act of forgiveness.

Uh I think it's one of the greatest things that frees us or binds us.

And that you sought your dad out for that.

What m what motivated you to do that and what was going through your mind and in doing that?

Yeah, I guess for me, um there was this growing sense that um as I as I kind of kind of kind of came to faith and understood what Jesus had done for me at the cross and how I didn't deserve that uh uh from for myself and that kind of feeling of um kind of new life and you know you're full of the Holy Spirit and and the the whole world kind of takes on this whole kind of new a new perspective, if you like, a kingdom worldview, um that that if there was something incomplete for me if I didn't extend, if I if I continued to hold that grudge uh against dad, there was something incomplete for me in terms of uh what my faith would look like and how credible I would be in terms of my own faith.

And what kind of integrity could I have if I spoke to others about the power of forgiveness that I'd received when Christ came into my life if I wasn't prepared to also extend that same um forgiveness towards somebody else, and in this case my dad.

If I couldn't, if I couldn't forgive my dad, um, you know, what hope did I have of you know extending forgiveness towards any others?

And a scripture that's always been important to me is that scripture in Matthew 22 when Jesus is being challenged about the most important thing, and Jesus says that the most important thing is to love you the Lord your God with all your heart and mind.

But the second most important thing is to love others, and so when it comes to someone like your dad, well, you know, I so and the surprising thing I says on Sunday was I was set free as well.

I said more free if you like, I became more um more whole as a person myself, um, and I didn't that wasn't the motivate motivation because I really didn't discover that until after it was more about having integrity as a Christian and as a person myself, yeah.

I really love that because I've always thought and experienced that forgiveness is so freeing to us, and there is that sense, well, Christ forgave us, so we don't really have a choice.

But it seems to be one of those things that's very difficult, particularly if there's been pain and hurt, and you know, you experience that as well.

So I think that speaks so powerfully into your own life and what that meant.

And I think that's a message that people need to hear.

Yeah, so so so good for you, and it's a living proof of your faith.

Yeah, and I I don't think I think one of the things I've learned is um that that didn't take away what had happened, and it didn't it didn't mean that all of those things hadn't affected me, um, but it means that those things no longer had a hold on me anymore.

That's right.

And so I guess that's the work that happens at the foot of the cross as well.

Um, but you know, the the great thing is our our faith in God isn't just the transaction when we're when we when we uh receive salvation, it's that ongoing journey of being set free and that move towards holiness and the holy living.

So yeah, yeah.

That principle of what Christ did for us put into practice for others is I mean it's something that I think about a lot, and we all do different kinds of spiritual practices in our lives, I guess.

For me, I was challenged many years ago at Easter around Christ giving his blood on the cross for me.

Yeah, and out of that I became a blood donor.

And I still do that once a month.

I'm a plasma donor uh constellation, and every time I go there, I do that as an act of worship.

Every time they stick the needle in me, I'm like, this is nothing compared to what Christ did for me.

This is the minimum I can do to give back to love my neighbours.

So different spiritual practices that we put into place, you know, frees us, right?

Totally.

Yeah, yeah.

So, Mike, you had a bit of a career in the Salvation Army, which probably meant moving around a little bit.

It did, yeah.

Where did you move?

Uh so we started that kind of well, I originally started as a youth worker with the Sally's, and when I was about 19, I did a year's youth work in Caldale in the Bay of Plenty, and then I met uh my wife Melissa um in my early 20s, um, and we felt called into full-time ministry with the Salvation Army as um ordained ministers in the Sally's, they call them Salvation Army officers.

And we pastored a church in Fakitani for five years, uh, we passed a church in Levin for four, and then I I really felt um the Lord saying to me, probably because of my upbringing and my background, um, that I really wanted to work in the addiction services of the Salvation Army and contribute in that way, and um then was able to move into the bridge programme initially in Christchurch in Auckland.

Um, we went to we we became officers without children, and then uh when children came along moving every five minutes, um didn't become so adventurous and um all of that kind of thing, and so eventually um we um um uh ceased being ordained ministers.

I went to work for Stepping Stone Trust for a few years, which is part of the Baptist world in Christchurch, Baptist mental health provider in Christchurch, and then a couple of years later uh I went back um to the bridge program uh and ended up being the national manager for national director for the bridge programs across the Mutu.

Um and that was great.

And I guess um from my point of view, you know, uh that in my own life that's been part of God's redemptive plan for me.

You know, this this little kid that used to hide under his bed because of alcoholism, you know, has been able to serve, and you know, I I credit um the the Sally's for the avenue of the ministry opportunities there.

I've been able to serve in in a space um that had adversely impacted my life, but then an irony had been turned around for something good, you know, in that kind of whole redemptive plan that you know something that once counted as a negative can actually be turned around uh for something that's good in service to others, and then um, you know, because of that that uh little bit of brief interaction in mental health, have also had a bit of a passion for the mental health space as well, and so um as the Salvation Army's just been through a a big restructure and I've been in the role for nearly 10 years, the opportunity at a quip came along, and so um I felt that the uh just through a a series of Connor um different things that happened, people that spoke to me in contact, um, you know, the Lord's never spoke to me audibly, it's been through scripture, friends, and prayer.

Um, I just felt that the opportunity was right to make a change, and so I've had the privilege of stepping into Naomi's previous role at Equip and been there for 10 months as the CEO.

So look at it.

I'll give you a little bit of a test then.

So Equip uh has been part of Windsor.

It was started about 35 years ago when we were Murray's Bay Baptists, so before we came to our current site, and has morphed and changed over the years.

It was first called our community services trust and then Teatro How and now Equip and it's grown over that time from being typical church volunteers to now having around 80 staff.

For someone that's not heard of Equip before, yeah, and we're talking about EQIP, after 10 months, describe Equip.

Um, well, I had heard of Equip before, and so partly what attracted me to go and work for Equip was its reputation um in the sector as uh as an effective and high quality mental health provider that made a real difference in the lives of people.

And the other thing that I knew about Equip is I knew that it was founded and grounded in Christian faith and kingdom principles, and so that's been important to me.

And so, apart from my career starting in banking, all of my career has been in the church and faith-based um ministries, and so I was attracted to Equip um because of what I had heard.

I had met people who had been engaged uh in Equip as Tangit Fa Order and Fano, and had heard nothing about um the positive life change um that had taken place there.

And I found as I've arrived in Equip to be at everything like I had heard about it and its reputation, and so I've enjoyed um the first 10 months at Equip, getting to know the um Kaimahi there, our staff, um, understanding that um you know the the the faith, the grounding in faith just isn't a logo on the vision or the mission statement, but it's kind of grounded in everything we do.

And in Equip, every day starts with cut a care and the staff who are on site, nearly all of them come to the colour care in the morning and we have a thought for the day and we open the day with um um prayer.

Um I've also discovered in my time at Equip the wonderful connection that there is between Windsor Park Church um and Equip.

And it was only yesterday in the service that we have um um uh Tungit Fi order or clients of Equip who are part of the Windsor Park um congregation.

And I met um a lovely woman there yesterday who's um you know previously had not such a good experience in the church, but is loving being part of the um Windsor Park family here and connected with um a quip as well.

So that kind of all moulds together into this amazing um organization that can make such a difference in the lives of people walking alongside them, helping them to achieve the goals that they want to achieve and at the pace that they want to go in terms of their wellness and recovery.

Yeah, so good.

So, how would you describe the programs that Equip has?

See if you can list them all off.

Yeah, so it's a cool, it's a cool range of community-based programs, and what I really love about that is that's about trying to come alongside people early in their experience of you know challenges around mental health and addiction, because that still features for many of our people, but trying to come alongside early and walk alongside them before um before things become too problematic, before they need intensive support or intensive services.

So I love that.

So we have support workers every day that jump in our fleet of cars, go and visit people in their homes, um, help them achieve the little things in life that they need to achieve.

We work alongside people, hoping not to make them dependent on us, but hoping to introduce them to groups of other people in the community where they can belong and become family, a bit like your Windsor Park family or library groups or art groups or whatever it might be that they find reinforcing and supportive for their own lives.

And so we have those community teams that go out.

We have an amazing um um toterer club um that looks after people uh in early stages um of dementia, and they go and do kind of all that kind of cool activities there, and there's some art on display at church.

So thank you for doing that.

That was amazing.

And um, we also have Coromiko House, which is our planned respite um facility, and that's designed to support people in the community um both pre-needing hospitalization or intensive inpatient units in terms of their mental health, and also coming out from those places back into the back into the community as well.

We have family far now workers, we have peer support workers, we have um our voice lived experience groups and kind of on and on it goes.

So there's kind of whole gamba and array of services at equip based and focused on early intervention, working with people in the community and providing them with a with a place at equip where they can feel like they belong and are part of the family.

So yeah.

And you articulate that well.

Sounds awesome.

Because it is awesome.

It's great, which is great.

Mike, this week is um Mental Health Awareness Week in ATROA.

And this has been going for a number of years now.

I wonder if it's still a bit of a challenge for our nation.

Often when we talk about mental health, some people can feel like if they've got mental health challenges, it's a bit of a weakness.

Now, if we tr twist our ankle and we have physical health issues.

She was just like, oh yeah, it's a bit stink.

Why is it so important for us to get our heads around mental health as being I guess a core part of our humanity?

The need to focus on that for us.

How do we move from it being a stigma to being, you know, this is just part of our lives that we need to look after?

Yeah.

And what so why is mental health awareness week so important for us?

Yeah, I think for the reason you articulate, and I love the I love the way you describe that um, you know, mental health is just a normal part of everyday life.

Uh certainly it's true.

There's still a a good degree of stigma out there around uh uh mental health and also addiction for for people, um particularly around um how we uh we still medically diagnose people with certain illnesses where we tend you know the unintended consequence of that is people carry labels with them when essentially they're just people, they're people like you and I, um, Grant.

And so in our shared humanity, uh on a continuum of wellness, we we all move up and down a continuum of being well, of being grumpy, of being anxious, of being fearful, and all of those things.

And it's just part of the normal human experience.

And I think the more that we articulate it using normal everyday language, the the hope is the the the the more we decrease the stigma um associated with that.

As I think about my own life's journey from childhood to now, um at different points in my life, uh, you know, my own mental health has been at different places on the continuum.

And while uh at the moment I've never need needed specialized care, there's this wonderful uh idea in scripture sometimes that talks about there, but but for the grace of God, there go I.

And so that kind of what I like about that is it kind of puts us in this kind of shared boat in terms of the human experience that um the whatever whatever happens in life, you know, we we can't see what's going to happen tomorrow or or where we may end up.

And so we just need to be um really careful about how we describe others.

Many of us in New Zealand, the the funny thing in New Zealand is you know, we're only one or two degrees of separation ourselves from knowing someone in our own family or a friend or a mate or somebody who's got a child or a brother or a mother who's had mental health um challenges in their own lives or addiction challenges.

So the irony is we we kind of carry this stigma idea around it, yet it's so common and it's so common to the human experience.

And I think faith has an important part to play in that as well.

And I remember, I remember as a young man being teased at different times by people you know who've wanted to maybe challenge me about my faith in terms of saying, Well, Mike, um your faith is just simply a crutch.

And it it was meant as a slight or as it was meant as a criticism.

But as a young man, I embraced that.

Well, of course my faith is a crutch.

My faith gives me a framework to hang around what happened to me when I was a kid, gives me a framework to hang around the things I don't understand today as an adult, and helps me understand that when it rains, it rains on shared humanity, whether I'm a Christian or I'm not a Christian.

And so, yeah, I think the more we normalize the language like you've been articulating, Grant, the more we reduce the stigma around.

And so that's why um mental health awareness week is so important.

Belonging matters, we need each other, and we're all in this together.

Yeah.

I really love the theme this year because it's so in line with what we say about our community.

You know, we do life and faith together.

Yeah, totally.

Get people together and good things happen.

I just have this firm belief, maybe because I'm an extrovert, but bigger picture than that is that you know, relationships are so critical to us that we aren't designed fundamentally to be alone.

Yeah, you know, the scriptures refer to that, and God is a trinity because it's he's relational.

Yeah, yeah.

He wants relationship with us.

So I think the theme this year is really on point and is so valuable for for so many different reasons.

I really love on the MHAW.nz website that they have some really great videos there of the ways in which people have found belonging through coaching, sport, and through a whole range of other ways.

And so it's to be really encouraged.

And so I guess I'd like to say to anyone that kind of feels like they maybe mentally are struggling for whatever reason, you know, connecting with people is such a big thing, and and don't think of it as a stigma, don't feel like I just need to deal with this myself.

You know, you we have to belong to other people and we have to be transparent with people that we trust.

And I'd like to hope that the church is a good place for that.

Absolutely.

I'd love people to think that equip is you know not just a ministry out there, it's integrated into who we are totally because we care about that, and I'm always very quick to honour those that were involved 35 years ago that saw that there was a need and responded to it.

I can ask you a question, personal question.

I've noticed this on your jacket.

You have a little, what is a 1737?

Yeah, yeah.

What's that?

So one seven three seven is the the free national uh helpline number.

Uh you can text it or you can phone it.

It's free to phone or text.

It runs 24 7 and you can get help on the end of the telephone if you just simply want to talk to somebody, if you want advice around medicine, if you are feeling anxious or um depressed, or um even if you're feeling really unwell, you can phone 1737, you can text them, they'll answer the phone straight away, and you've got somebody to speak to on the on the end of the telephone, trained uh counselors, trained social workers, trained medical staff, and uh it's the mental health um line, it's free in New Zealand.

And um, look, it's just a little way of just reminding people you've noticed the badge that if you want help any time of the day or night, even if you're all alone by yourself, 1737, give them a text, give them a call, um, they'll be there to help you straight away.

I love that.

I thought you were like all black number 1737 or something like that, but no, I now I know and I'll remember that.

I think that's a great thing.

So great job.

Final thing, what would you say?

I guess as a somebody experienced, um, who works in that field.

I mean, I've encouraged people to reach out and and I say that you've got more cred than me in this space.

What would you say to someone who's perhaps listening or who knows somebody that's like, I don't know, my my child or my parent or my friend?

I can see them kind of you know really struggling with their mental health and that can look in any number of different ways.

What would you say to someone um today in Mental Health Awareness Week um that might be recognizing something or saying something?

What would your advice be to them?

Oh look fr from my point of view, I just simply say be a friend to them.

Um, you know, say hello to them, connect with them, you know, ask them how they're doing.

Um sometimes, you know, we don't well you know coming back to this kind of shared humanity thing, you know, we don't need to have degrees and and um and and lots of knowledge and understanding around what might be the right words or be fearful about what we may or may not say.

Um but just be a friend, just connect at a human level with someone and ask them, are they okay?

Is there any support that they might need?

And then if you need to, you can even text or phone 1737.

And there are the professionals and the people with the skills and the degrees and the understanding around how to alongside how how to come alongside people, but never be fearful of just connecting with someone as a as a human being.

And if you ever feel like you're in a situation where you might be out of your depth, then phone the emergency services on 111 or phone 1737.

Um, but initially, sometimes we can be afraid of things that might never happen, and so sometimes just reaching out and connecting at a human level is the most important thing that we can do.

So yeah.

It sounds so easy, it takes a bit of courage, yeah.

Totally, totally.

Yeah.

Hey Mike, we want to thank you for sharing more of yourself.

We really enjoyed having you on Sunday.

I've really enjoyed chatting with you today.

Um, we really love having you as part of Equip and everything that you're bringing to Equip, continuing the great legacy of Equip that has been built up over many decades and adding you to that and your skills and your vision for Equip.

Uh, I know the board um endorses your work.

Uh, and as a church, we're you know really pleased to have EQIP so well led um and continuing that and look forward to our continuing you know strong relationship as far as what Equip is and who we are as a church and our heartbeat to connect with our community.

So really appreciate you coming on Between the Message podcast today and sharing more of yourself.

We look forward to hearing from more of you in the future.

And thanks for joining us on this podcast.

I hope you've enjoyed our Mental Health Awareness Week special with Michael Douglas, the CEO of Equip Mental Health Services.

Thanks, Grant.

Thanks, everybody.