Are You're Becoming the Person Who Hurt You?

Oh, hey. Hello and welcome to Crowd Church. My name's Sharon and I'm hosting

tonight alongside the fabulous Mike, who I'm told has changed his name to Mr.

Practical. So would you like to tell us about that?

Yeah, that's right. Hi, great to be here. Um, yes, I've managed to fix a whole

in the, um, the seal on my windscreen of my van, my very, very old van. So, um.

Feeling proud of yourself, mate.

Because it's fixed, I'm now a joiner. So, yeah.

Yeah. Okay. We'll go with that. Um, also joining us tonight, we've got Ade who's

in Wales. Hi, Ade. Uh, have you changed your name since I last spoke to you?

Uh, no, and nor am I a windscreen engineer like our good friend Mike is.

Cool. So, um, yeah, welcome to all of you, whether you're part of the community

already. Um, great to see you. And if you're new, or just even if you're looking

into the faith, this is the place to be. Um, you're welcome to add your

questions and your comments. In case you are new, just so that you know what's

happening tonight, we've got Ade who will be speaking to us. We're partway

through a series about Jesus the revolutionary, and we've done some of the

nicer, more palatable parts of what he said, and we're now looking at some of

the harder teachings. So Ade's carrying on with those harder teachings, and then

after he's done the talk, we're going to get back together, the 3 of us, and

chat about the talk. And also just talk about any of your comments, your

questions. So please do join in the conversation. We don't want this just to be

passive, you know, you watching and us talking. Join in the conversation. If

you'd like to actually watch and join in with other people, we have Live Lounge,

which is actually on now. And that's just a room where people can watch together

and then discuss together after the talk. So the details for that should be— In

the comments. I'm reliably told they are coming up very soon. So, um, yeah, so I

think we will go straight to Ade now, um, and to hear what the latest, more

challenging teaching of Jesus is. So, Ade.

Thank you. The topic of tonight's talk is Love Your Enemies: The Importance of

Forgiveness. So, simple question: have you ever been hurt? Has anyone done you

any real wrong and caused real pain? The answer to that is, of course, yes,

because we are human beings and getting hurt is part of life. But have you ever

felt that other person doesn't deserve my forgiveness, or I have every right to

be angry? After all, this was a real wrong done to me, causing real pain. And on

the surface, resentment can promise protection, but it ultimately imprisons us.

And the impact of not forgiving people is quite profound. Mentally, it means

prolonged anger, resentment, more bitterness, hostility that can even lead to

depression. It can trigger negative thoughts and keeping a psychological wound

open. And studies, even, and many studies link unforgiveness both to ourselves

and to others with depression and psychological distress. The physical impact

isn't much better either, because chronic resentment keeps the body in a state

of stress response. That means elevated heart rate, elevated blood pressure, and

stress hormones. And prolonged unforgiveness is also associated with a weakened

immune system, poor sleep, and long-term physical toll. And the damage keeps on

going because socially, the motivational component often involves a desire for

revenge or retaliation, ultimately avoiding the other person and potentially

damaging personal bonds. And accumulated bitterness over time can actually alter

our behaviour, making us more defensive and cynical in future interactions.

Fortunately, there's some good teaching on this in Matthew chapter 5, verses 43

Matthew 5:43–48

to 48. I'm going to read that now. You have heard that it is said, love your

neighbor and hate your enemy. But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for

those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He

causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous

and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?

Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you only greet your brothers,

what— sorry, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be

perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. There's a couple

interesting and important symbologies used here. The first one is being children

of the Father. In Jewish culture, the son is expected to act like his father.

And therefore, for us, acting with unconditional love serves as proof of family

resemblance to God. The other important symbol here is the sun and the rain.

Now, in biblical times, these were seen as 2 of the most important blessings.

They were critical for survival. They got by on food growing or not growing. But

these also symbolize God's universal goodness and grace poured out equally, with

no favorites. When it rains, it rains on the righteous and the unrighteous, the

nice and the not so nice. The same with the sun, it happens to everyone. Now

before we get into it, there's a few things important to understand in the

context of what's happening at the time. First and foremostly, Judea was under

Roman occupation. And the Romans ruled Judea with an iron fist. It was a

military occupation. In Roman law, soldiers could legally make Jews carry their

gear for miles and miles with no payment, and whatever the Jews were doing, they

had to stop doing it and just carry their gear. And Roman soldiers often

enforced this, much to the hatred of the Jews. Now, the Jews expected the

Messiah to come in and overthrow the their Roman overlords. And there was a

bunch of Jewish freedom fighters called the Zealots, who were very active, and

they believed that assassinating Romans and refusing to pay taxes were holy

duties. Speaking of tax, being under the Roman system, the Romans demanded their

tax, but the Romans didn't take the tax themselves. They used local Jews to

collect the tax. Now, the way it would work is Rome had a certain price, and

anything above that, the tax collector took as their cut and their salary, for

the want of a better word. And they had the might of Roman soldiers to back it

up, to make sure people paid for them. They were absolutely hated. They are

classed and listed amongst thieves and murderers and prostitutes. They were the

lowest of the low in Jewish culture. They were barred from entering the temple.

Now, speaking of Jewish culture, if you weren't a Jew, you were a Gentile, and

that would mean that you were ceremonially unclean, you ate non-kosher foods,

you did not follow a law, and you worshipped idols, and typically you were hated

by Jews. It was very much embedded into their culture. Now, whilst the Bible

itself does not say anything quite so explicit, the Dead Sea Scrolls

interestingly do, and they were written by a Jewish sect, and there is a quote

Love all the sons of light, hate all the sons of darkness. So in this time, if

you were a Jew, you were considered a neighbor. In fact, the interpretation of

love your neighbor to the Jews were love your neighbor Jew. If you were a

Gentile, you didn't come under that, you weren't included. And finally, this

culture was very much a culture of reciprocation. Life was transactional. You

did a greeting expecting you would get a greeting in turn. You gave a gift

perhaps, or a favor, expecting you would get a favor in turn. And Jesus here is

demanding a pure gift mentality, which is a seismic shift away from the

transactional society they were living in. Now here he is clearly calling us to

a higher standard. We are to move past the human standard of fairness, which is

transactional. I'll do to you what you do to me. We are to compare ourselves to

God and not to each other. As he says in verse 47, even the tax collectors, you

know, love those who love back. It's easy to love those who love back. It's not

easy to love those who don't love back. And the truth is, we need help from God.

We need supernatural help from God to be able to love those who do not love

back, especially our enemies. And in verse 48, where he talks about being

perfect as your Father, doesn't mean we're going to become perfect or we're not

going to make mistakes. It is our love will be well-rounded and will be

reflective Attempting to be the love that he has shown us. Now, love is an

action and not a feeling, and before I go further into this, it's worth defining

what we're talking about in the context of love here. In the English language,

we associate love very often with romantic love, which in Greek would be iROAS,

which is romantic and passionate love or physical desire. Greek have a different

word, more for the family kind of love, philia, which is like a deep loyal

friendship, an affection shared between companions, could also be between

relatives. What the Bible is referring to, what Jesus is referring to, is agape,

which is an unconditional, selfless, sacrificial love that seeks the best

interest for others. He is not talking about romantic love when he says, love

your enemies, he is talking about acting selflessly toward them, the kind of way

that we wouldn't want to naturally. That is what we are being commanded to do.

And interestingly, this command to love in the agape sense is paired with an

instruction to pray for those who persecute you. Now, on the surface, this might

look a bit strange, but when you think about it, It's impossible to genuinely

pray for someone's ultimate good whilst holding a grudge. Whilst the act of,

say, persecution in the first place that made them appear as a monster, the act

of prayer forces us to see them as a broken and flawed human. And finally,

forgiveness is Reconciliation is conditional, but forgiveness is commanded. Now

importantly, forgiveness prevents us from becoming the thing we hate. It's a

phenomenon called the mirroring effect, where by reacting to hate and violence

with more hate and violence, for example, your actual enemy is dictating your

behavior, and your behavior is getting more like your enemy's behavior, which

you hate in the first place. So forgiveness breaks that chain. Refusing to repay

negative with negative, it breaks that chain. Forgiveness requires one person,

one party in the involved hurt, dispute, or whatever it is. We can make the

choice. To forgive and release the debt. Reconciliation, it requires 2. Whilst

it is ideal and we would always like to be in that situation, it is not always

safe or possible, and Jesus is being very clear. He is talking about forgiveness

and not reconciliation. So when we think about all this and we start to turn the

mirror in toward us, where are we in relation to that higher standard? Is our

standard of fairness human or godly? And do we have a pure gift or transactional

giving mentality in this situation? John 13:34: A new command I give you: love

one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. Now

interestingly, this command is even higher than love your neighbor as yourself.

We're no longer looking at— because love your neighbor as yourself, that's kind

of like your human view of love, our definition of love. But to love one another

as God has loved us, that's God's definition of love. That is a higher calling.

When it comes to action, are we loving everyone including our enemies? And by

that I mean, are our actions selflessly in their best interest. Luke 6:27-28:

Luke 6:27

But to you who are listening, I say, love your enemies, do good to those who

hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. And

finally, are we forgiving others? or feeling justified not to. Matthew 16:14-15:

Matthew 16:14

For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father

will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father

will not forgive your sins. That is a somber, somber warning. We are called very

clearly to God's standard and not man's. We are called to love all

unconditionally, to forgive others. Now ultimately, it's, you know, we are

called— it's our choice if we follow God or not. But if we are generally

followers of Christ, his children, then we will be looking to exemplify these

things. Matthew 5:9, blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the

Matthew 5:9

children of God. Forgiveness stops the cycle of harm for harm, restores

relationships, and brings inner peace. And just like in the Jewish culture,

where the son is expected to act like the father, we are also expected to act

like our Father in Heaven, acting with unconditional love. And it's this act of

unconditional love That serves as our proof of family resemblance to God. So

this week, I challenge you, take a look at your proof of family resemblance and

ask the question, is there room for improvement? I certainly think in mine, yes,

there is.

Thank you. Thanks for that, Ade. I love how you always bring in the cultural

background to help bring out a little bit more of the meaning there. Um, before

we get into discussion, just want to say hi to some people in the comments. So

I'll try to get you all, but we've got, um, Matt Crew, Matt Edmundson, Alicia,

Talita— hoping I'm getting the pronunciation right— uh, Sonia, Ellis. Hi

everybody. Um, Worthy Life. Um, who else? Is that everybody? I think that's the

ones that I can see. Can you see anybody else?

Um, no, I think, I think that's all.

Yeah, cool. Um, yeah, yeah, great to have you with us. Yeah, do, um, keep

bunging your comments in, any questions as well. Okay, let's get into the

discussion. So I just wanted to start by Talking— I think you might have

actually missed the first bit, Mike, because Matt was talking tech details and

stuff with Mike. So, but Ade just sort of listed all the different ways in that

holding on to resentment and bitterness can affect us physically, mentally,

socially. Yeah. And I thought that was pretty comprehensive.

Yeah.

Um, did you hear any of that?

Uh, I caught a bit of it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's, it's, um, I've, I've talked to GPs before about unforgiveness and how big

an impact it has on people's lives. And, um, it's, you know, difficult to

quantify, isn't it, I suppose, and different for different people. But, you

know, I don't think there's anything, any doubt. Just in my own life, I know

that, you know, in those times where I have been hurt by someone, you know,

going over and over that in my head Um, however big or small it is, has an

impact on my day.

Yeah.

And has an impact on my sleep, has an impact on, um, you know, it has to have an

impact on my health. Um, you know, and I know for, for other people who've, you

know, been through worse and, um, I found it difficult to, to forgive, it's had

a huge impact on their lives.

Yeah.

Um, so yeah, it's a big deal.

Absolutely. Yeah, I, I know the impact in my own life from unforgiveness. And I

remember one time in particular when there was somebody who I hadn't realized I

hadn't forgiven for quite a long time until somebody was like, are you angry?

And I'm like, oh yeah, I actually am angry.

Yeah.

And there was a whole list of people actually, um, but one in particular. And I

realized that I was seeing them through this lens of unforgiveness. So it's like

everything they did was interpreted through that lens.

Yeah.

And I could only see the bad stuff about them. And just inside, it feels like

darkness.

Yeah.

And just evil, I think.

Yeah.

But then when I did actually forgive them, it was like suddenly they were this

amazing, fabulous person. And it's like they hadn't actually changed. They were

always amazing and fabulous.

Yeah.

But the way that I saw them Had changed. Yeah.

Um, yeah, and that's something, a small bit of that, that I, you know, I've

experienced. And it is amazing, isn't it, that, um, the way we see people

changes when, you know— I'm sure one of the reasons why God asks us to pray for

those people who persecute us is as much just to help change our heart, um,

towards them and Yeah.

Which brings me on to a question. So, Ade, I'll bring you back in here. Have you

got any examples you can give of situations where you've had to love an enemy?

Hmm.

I find myself in the fortunate position that I don't think I've got anyone who

is A real proper enemy. There have been people who have hurt me, and I have yet

to come to a big situation where, yes, it's taken me time to get over it, where

I've been like, nope, nope, nope, I just cannot forgive that person. For me, I'm

going to struggle more when I don't see it. So it's just, let's say I find

myself reacting to someone who technically, you know, I don't have a beef with,

but they're doing something that annoys me. Or let's say there's an unfair share

of workload and, or someone's kind of not pulling their weight, but they're

pretending to. And I just find when that person's there, I kind of react not at

them, but something builds up inside me and it's kind of like, Oh, actually,

yeah, I've, I, uh, because it's not been a big deal, I haven't thought I need to

forgive that person, but actually there's something here I need to deal with and

take a moment.

How about you, Mike? Um, maybe not necessarily an enemy, but where, you know,

you've had that, you find that resentment building up and you're like, actually,

I'm commanded to love them.

Yeah, I think Yeah, I've— I suppose when, um, my wife works with lots of other

people, and some of them are great, maybe not so great, and, um, I've found it

hard, or found resentment building up in me towards these people who I've never

met, um, but I've heard Um, you know, of not being all that kind to my wife. And

so, um, yeah, praying for them. And, and often it was my wife who wanted to pray

for them before I did, and I'd never even met them. I hadn't— they hadn't even

harmed me or done anything to me, but it was, you know, it was Deb who was

wanting to, to pray for them. And so I would reluctantly join her in praying for

them. And it's, it's tough. It's tough. Um, but I think as Ade said, it's, it's

a choice, isn't it?

Yeah.

It's a choice, and it's a choice because I think as Matt's put in the comments,

it's a command, isn't it? And so when it's a command, you know, God knows us, he

knows us best, doesn't he? And so if he makes a command for us to do something,

he's only going to do that if he supplies us with the um, substance to be able

to, to do that.

Yeah.

Um, and so, you know, when I have prayed for these people who I have resented,

um, as hard as it is, it's, you know, I think as you were saying before, as you

are praying for them and as you are asking God to bless them and to to change

them and whatever it is, um, your heart does change, um, slowly and a little bit

at a time.

Yeah. It's interesting how, like you were saying, we can take offense on behalf

of other people. They've not even done anything to us.

Yeah, yeah.

But yeah, I think we need to watch for that as well, don't we? I think for me,

one of the most, um, ones when this was the most obvious was with an old

neighbor of ours. our previous house who was really friendly when we first moved

in and then stopped talking to us. And then after years did start talking to us,

but it was to complain about different stuff that she was saying was our fault.

And my, my reaction is just to, well, you know, that inward, it's be, you want,

just want to defend yourself and go, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not actually my

fault. But I had those verses that came to mind, you know, love your enemy.

Yeah.

And she did actually feel like a bit of an enemy.

Yeah.

There's lots that went on, but I felt, you know, I was reminded of those verses,

love your enemy. So instead of just being like, it's not my fault, it's, you

know, nothing to do with me, I was like, okay, I will look into this for you.

And there was, there was one issue which hadn't— it wasn't actually our fault

and it wasn't actually on her thing, but I was like, okay, I will even try and

get this sorted for you. Um, and when she realized it wasn't actually to do with

me, she did start a little backtracking a little bit. Um, but yeah, that was—

and I think that did bring about a bit of a change. You know, if you meet, um,

like Ada was saying before, sometimes if we meet someone with the same kind of

attitude, it perpetuates that.

Yeah.

But if you come with that different spirit of grace, yeah, And love, it can

start after a while, start to change things a little bit sometimes.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, a few comments here. Um, Matt Crew says, I'm praying for my neighbor at

the end of the road who screamed in my face for tidying up some leaves. Yeah,

tricky. Um, there's another one here I wanted to pick up on. Um, Talita says,

it's the gap between not cultivating anger and resentment And actually praying

for them, it's hard to bridge for me. Um, yeah, and I think actually that's a

really important point, and I think there is actually a process to go through

before we get to the, yeah, I'm gonna be loving towards them. And that is to

actually partly acknowledge how we feel.

Yeah.

Not to just switch straight into, oh, I'm meant to love them.

Yeah, yeah.

But to properly, properly acknowledge that. and work that through and—

Yeah.

And then be able to forgive, let go, and then move on to the, okay, I'm going to

love them. And actually, there's a really helpful book that I found helpful,

which is specifically about forgiveness, and it's called Forgive, Release, and

Be Free by Jofte. I think it's out of print, but you can still get it. And it's

just fabulous because it actually teaches you how to go through that process.

And I've recommended it to so many people over the years who've all gone, this

is an amazing book.

Yeah.

Because I think if we don't actually totally acknowledge how we feel, we end up

just squashing it down rather than properly dealing with it. And then we just

like trying to love someone is just like trying our hardest to do the right

thing. But actually there's then a kind of dissonance in how we actually are.

Yeah. And yeah, so yeah, I think when you— when we get, uh, I think you're dead

right. And I, I think my temptation can sometimes be, you know, if, if someone

does forgive— if someone does hurt me, it's just to jump to that without

recognizing that, you know, what has happened. And, um, I think it's really

important when someone does hurt you to understand that, you know, to pause and

to think, what is it now that I feel is owed to me? Is it that they have damaged

my reputation? Is it that they have physically harmed me? You know, what is it

that I— what's the debt that is owed to me? And sort of getting a good handle on

that before then Coming to God. Yeah. And saying, okay God, this is the death

that I— this is what's happened, this is how I feel, this is what I feel like

I'm owed, you know, you're gonna have to help me here. Um, yeah, and I think

that's really key, really important, really healthy. Yeah.

Ade, is there anything else that you want to add to that about the gap between

not cultivating anger and resentment and actually praying for somebody?

We generally need help. This is not something that comes to us naturally. I

guess it's something that with practice, with humility and walking closely with

God, it's something that we can get better over time. It certainly doesn't feel.

natural, something that you want to do, but it's something that I say we are

commanded to. And as with all things, God has given us everything we need, but

it's up to us to, uh, you know, grasp the tools, the gifts, the guidance, and,

uh, and actually move forward.

Mm-hmm.

I've got, um, a little story or a little testimony.

Okay.

Um, because, um, I was doing Alpha. I know, um, our crowd are running Alpha as

well. Um, I don't know what week you're up to, but the week we're up to, um,

we've just heard a story from Corrie ten Boom. Um, which I was just gonna say

because this is all about forgiveness. So for those of you who don't know,

Corrie ten Boom, um, was in Ravensbrück concentration camp Um, back in 1947. And

so, um, yeah, so she forgave a former SS guard. So one of the people who was in

charge of the concentration camp that her and her sister, and I think her mum,

um, was there. I think her mum and her sister both died in the concentration

camp. And so, um, Corrie ten Boom later was in a church and this happened. So it

says, um, As people were leaving the church, a balding, heavyset man in a gray

coat approached Corrie with his hand outstretched. Corrie instantly recognized

him as one of the cruelest guards at Ravensbrück, the camp where her beloved

sister Betsie had suffered and died. The man explained that he had become a

Christian after the war, believed his past sins were washed away, and asked

Corrie directly Will you forgive me? Corrie froze as cold, angry memories of the

camp, the humiliation, the cold, and her dying sister flashed through her mind.

She realized she could not generate the forgiveness in her own human strength.

She silently prayed, Jesus, help me, and asked God to, to give her his love to

forgive the man. Corrie made the conscious, willed choice to lift her hand and

place it into the guard's hand. The moment their hands touched, she felt an

overwhelming warm current of God's love flood from her shoulder through her arm

and into her— into their clasped hands. She wept as she told him, I forgive you,

brother, with all my heart, later writing that forgiveness is not an emotion but

an act of the will enabled by God. And I think, you know, as amazing as that

story is, and it is, you know, Utterly amazing, the the cruelness she talks

about having to walk naked in front of this remembering walking naked in front

of this SS guard, you know, as he inflicted all sorts of cruelty. And she says

at the end of this testimony, she says, "Can you forgive?" And she says, "No."

But with God's help, you can. And you know, she knew in that moment when she saw

this guard, all that rage and all that pain and all that. Um, all that history

came flooding back, and she knew she could not forgive this man. And so she

prayed, and she asked God for God's help. And I think that's the thing, you

know, when, um, you know, we don't know what, what you have been through, the

pain that you have been caused, um, but, you know, according to Corrie ten Boom,

your ability to forgive is, is zero. And actually, the only way that you're

going to have the strength to be to forgive whatever enemy you have is by going

to God, recognizing the pain that you have, um, that you feel like you've been

through, or understanding the size of the debt that you feel like you've been

owed, and going to God. And it's only through God enabling you to be able to

forgive that, that this is possible. Um, and yeah, you know, I just, I think

it's a great story. And Very inspiring.

Yeah, it's very inspiring. Um, I want to pick up on something else you said

then, but before that you also mentioned Alpha.

Oh yeah.

So if you are new to Alpha, you don't know what it is, it's basically a course

for people who are wanting to look into the Christian faith but you've got

questions. So there are courses that are run all around the country, all around

the world. At Crowd, we do one online. I don't think it's too late to join. That

one's Wednesday evenings, half past 7. Links in the comments. Links in the

comments. That's for about an hour and a half-ish, the Wednesday one. And it's

just a safe space where you can come and just go, I don't get that, or I've got

these questions. And each week we watch a video on a different topic. So things

like, who is Jesus? How do I pray? That kind of stuff. Yeah, and you can just

come along. Non-threatening. We're not going to be like, well, you're wrong.

It's just, you know, great. Something else I wanted to pick up on, you were

talking about how we need God's help to forgive and to be able to love, I think,

love our enemies.

Yeah.

And I think, and you're talking about that we need to recognize the debt that

we're owed. And that really is based on the parable of the unforgiving servant a

lot. Which the book I mentioned is also about. And in this parable, there's a

king and he's got a servant and the servant owes him this huge amount of money.

And then the king forgives him the money because this guy could never pay it

back.

Yeah.

And the servant then goes on, finds somebody that owes him money. And instead of

being like, oh, I've been let off this huge debt, I'll let this guy off his

really tiny debt towards me. He goes and throws him into prison because he can't

pay it.

Yeah.

And then the king's really angry with him. And he's like, if— and this is where

I think the bit that Ade read comes from, that if you don't forgive other

people, then God won't forgive you. And part of me wonders, did the first guy

not actually totally appreciate That he had been forgiven this debt. Did he

hear, oh, or did he interpret it as, oh, he's let me off, but really that means

I've just got extra time to pay and I'm going to try and get everything else? I

think part of being able to love our enemies and forgive other people is

recognizing that God forgives us our huge debt towards him and receiving that

grace from him. Because when we— When we acknowledge that gift from God, that we

were once his enemies, and he's poured out his love and his grace on us, I think

it then makes it easier to pass that on to other people. It's more like it flows

from God through us and out to other people. So I think that's something that's

really helped me in the past.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's, that's, yeah.

Anything, Ade, anything to, um, Add to that?

Uh, no, I think you've covered that quite well.

Um, cool. We've got Ellis has put, I'm very quick to call out something that I

deem to be unfair. I find it hard to let it go and not hold it against someone,

even though I know that I should. It can feel like you're letting them win.

Yeah, it can. Any, any thoughts on that last bit, you know, it feels like you're

letting them win.

Yeah, you feel like you're releasing them from a debt that they owe. And, um,

you know, somebody's— you feel like somebody's got to pay that debt. The debt

can't go unpaid.

Yeah.

So either I pay it by not seeking revenge, or what— or, um, you know, Yeah. By

not seeking revenge, or you pay for it because, you know, you're the person

who's done things wrong. And, you know, it's really, really hard, really hard.

And the only answer is, is to, is to look back and to try and remember how much

you've been forgiven, um, you know, by, by a perfect God. But, but it's hard.

Wow, it's hard. I'm sure somebody has said, some of our wives said forgiveness

is the hardest thing we have to do this side of heaven. And, you know, I, I

totally believe it. I think, you know, I don't know if there's anything harder.

Yeah.

Which is why we need God's help. And I know Ade at the beginning was talking

about our family resemblance and how, you know, we— I, I, I only have one

message, and, and that is that God is changing us into the likeness of Jesus.

And forgiveness is just one of those ways, isn't it, as we engage in that

process? Of reconciliation, we are allowing the Holy Spirit in that moment to do

such fundamental, great work in our hearts that helps to change us a little bit

more into the likeness of Jesus, which means that we're better able to reflect

his glory to those that are around us. You know, when you go through life, you

know, you think about those hard parts of life, forgiveness is one of the most

difficult.

Yeah.

I think one of the, um, you know, one of the, the most crucial periods of time

and, and difficulties that you can go through that can be such a molding,

forming experience that God can use in your life, which doesn't make the process

any easier, um, But, you know, it is, I hope, some, some comfort to people who

are going through it.

Yeah. And I think when I have actually been able to forgive people and love

those who have hurt me, honestly, it's so freeing on the inside. Stuff that had

just kept me imprisoned, again, like I mentioned, it's like suddenly it's like,

oh, I'm completely free from this. Yeah. I thought that holding on to the anger

and the bitterness and blaming them and blaming them for how my life was now,

Yeah. Was like the fair and the just thing to do, but actually it's made my life

smaller and smaller and kept me imprisoned. I think Ade said a good phrase. I

see, I wrote it down, see if I can find it. Uh, where is it? Oh, that resentment

promises protection, but it imprisons us. I thought, oh yeah, I really resonate

with that.

Yeah.

Um, Worthy Life has put a couple of comments that are kind of the other side of

this about where we can actually be like the enemy to someone. So, um, I'm not

sure if, uh, yeah, so Worthy Life says Matthew 5:23 is a huge life verse for me,

Matthew 5:23

leaving your gift there and first going and reconciling. I have found that

oftentimes it's me that has something, has done something, um, that didn't sit

right in my heart. And so it I find it's me that has to go and reconcile for

something that I did. Yeah, because I think sometimes it's easier sometimes to

see what other people have done, how they have hurt us, how they have become the

enemy. It's not always easy to recognize that we might be that person for

somebody else.

Yeah, yeah.

And the verse, oh, I'll try and find that verse. I think that's referring to

where if you're in the temple, you're bringing up an offering to God, and you

realize that your brother's got something against you, It's like, go and sort it

out.

Yeah.

Um, yeah.

It's quite easy. Well, it's easier, isn't it, to see, you know, when you've done

something wrong and you have to go and ask someone for forgiveness, you, you

feel like you're in their debt.

Yeah. You feel—

you— yeah, I do. I feel like I, um, even when I apologize, I still feel like

there's a debt that I need to, you know, try and make up for. Um, yeah, you're

just aware of the fact that that's there. You've hurt them, you've, you've done

something. There is, um, and, and you want to make it right.

Yeah. Ade, anything to chip in?

I, uh, I think it's worth looking at this from the, the other side. Um, quite

often in conversations around forgiveness and this passage in particular, it's

like, oh, you're called to be a doormat. And it's like, No, loving your enemies

doesn't mean that you have to be a doormat. It doesn't mean that you have to put

yourself in a situation where— because some people, they're going to keep on

harming you, it doesn't matter what you do. And unless God is particularly

telling us, right, stay in that situation because, you know, God's specifically

telling us to, because it's part of his plan, you know, God gave us brains, and

it's like, yeah, there are some people who are just going to be toxic and we

just need to take a step back from, even if for a season. So this is not a case

of, oh yeah, just no matter what everyone does to you, forgive. And then, you

know, love your enemies— it's like, it's not saying do your best to please them.

It is just treat them professionally, show them the respect they aren't showing

you. If there is a situation where you can Think about their needs and put them

first in the interactions you're having. Do that. But he's not saying do more

than that.

Yeah. I'm just aware of the time and that those who are watching in Live Lounge

are going to leave us any minute. So thanks guys for joining us. You're going to

stay in Live Lounge and continue your conversation there. If you joined our

livestream late and you're wondering what Is a live lounge. It's basically just

an online room where people can watch together and then just have a bit of

community and chat about the talk together rather than just in the comments. So

yeah, thanks for joining us, guys. We'll hopefully see you soon. And for the

rest of us, we'll just carry on for a few minutes with the conversation, picking

up on a few more comments here. Um, uh, Alicia says, I think when it comes to

forgiving self or others, sometimes it helps to remember that forgiveness

doesn't mean you're a failure if you're unable to forget or reconcile. Um, yeah,

I think as Ade mentioned before, forgiveness and reconciliation are 2 completely

different things. Forgiveness you can do yourself in your own heart regardless

of what the other person does. But for reconciliation, there needs to be some

change with the other person as well. And especially like if, we've said many

times, haven't we? If you've, if you're in an abusive situation, you can forgive

the abuser while still putting really good boundaries in place. And, and

sometimes actually reconciliation is not appropriate.

Yeah.

It's probably the least appropriate thing to do.

Um, I know, I wish I could remember the verse, um, But— or the verse or the

passage, but I can't. Um, maybe someone watching can remember it, but I'm sure

there's a bit in the New Testament where it talks about, um, if you have a

disagreement with somebody else, you get another person involved. So you get a

mediator. Um, if the person continues, um, with whatever it is that they're

doing, then you come back with more people and you find more witnesses and, and

you come back to this person. And eventually, if the person still continues,

then you, you basically treat them then as an unbeliever and you, you know,

distance yourself from them. But I think the, the point I want to make is that

from the beginning, at no point are you alone with that person. So you either

have a mediator or you have other people in the church who, who We'll come with

you to discuss this issue and to try and sort it out, try and find

reconciliation with the person. Um, yeah.

Yeah. And I think it is actually important to deal with this stuff because it's

like if, if we are hurt and we just ignore it, then it builds up over time and

becomes this massive thing that then affects everything about the relationship.

And I think we've seen this quite a few times over the years with something that

started off relatively small. Because it wasn't talked about at that point and

the other person maybe wasn't even aware that it was an issue.

Yeah.

Over time becomes this big thing and then there's this big blowup and breakdown

of relationship. And it's like, if this was dealt right back, dealt with right

back at the beginning, that would have been a very different scenario.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm just looking at more comments here. Um, yeah, Ros has put, forgiveness is

life-changing. Forgiving someone and releasing it is an incredible thing to be

able to do. Totally agree. Totally live. Yeah, know that from experience.

Matthew Cruz put, I think God has kept my phone on over 5% tonight as he wanted

me to be here.

Special miracle just for you. Yeah, well done. Um, yeah, um, Oh, and just the

previous comment I read out from Alicia about forgetting. My— I think my

experience is that when I've actually— like, before I've forgiven someone, what

they've done is just like right here, constantly in my head, can't see anything

else.

Yeah.

But then when I've actually forgiven them, not necessarily that moment, but over

time, when I look back and I'm like, when I sort of think about it, I can

remember it to a point if I think quite hard about it. But it's so much, it's

dealt with so much that it's just not really, it's stored somewhere away.

Yeah.

And it's not really part of my thinking anymore. So although I haven't

technically forgotten, I kind of have as well. But, um, yeah.

Yeah. I, I also, um, think, you know, with regards to forgiveness as well, it's

important to remember that when we come to God and ask for his forgiveness, that

we are coming to a perfect, loving Heavenly Father who forgives us instantly.

You know, it's different for us, isn't it? We, we sort of go through a process,

and sometimes it takes us a little bit of time to get there, but when When we

have done things wrong and we've hurt other people and we come to God and we

say, Father, forgive me, I've done wrong here, he forgives you in an instant

because he is faithful and because he is just and because Jesus died and because

he was punished. God is faithful, but he is also just to look on Jesus and the

punishment that he paid. Um, so that he can forgive you. And, and that's

justice, isn't it? He can't punish you twice. He's punished Jesus. Um, and when

you come to him, when you have done something wrong and you come to him to ask

for forgiveness, he forgives you instantly because he is faithful and loving and

just. Um, yeah.

Yeah, that's where I think— that's where it all points to, isn't it? If we're

just trying to do all this stuff on our own, Actually, it's really, really hard.

But when we're receiving that love and that grace and that forgiveness from God,

like I said before, it then becomes more about what's flowing out of us.

Yeah, absolutely.

Not that it, it's always necessarily easy even then.

Yeah.

But yeah, God's Spirit makes things so much more easy. Yeah.

Um, and I think if, if you're in a regular routine of coming to God and saying,

Uh, you know, and repenting and saying, you know, repenting is, is saying sorry

for the wrong things that you've done. If you're in a regular routine of that,

uh, then it, it becomes easier to, to forgive other people because you are

constantly, you know, reminded about the fact that, that you need God's

forgiveness, you know, daily or, or whatever. A good practice is to regularly,

you know, maybe not every day, but But just to say, Holy Spirit, come and search

me and know me. And just waiting a few minutes and just allowing the Holy Spirit

to maybe bring to mind things that you need to say sorry for, and then

confessing them and saying sorry for them. And as you get into that regular

routine, that dialogue between you and God, and you experience God's forgiveness

and his love and his grace, Mm-hmm. Um, then it makes it easier to forgive all

the people.

Yeah, I think. Ade, is there anything else that you wanted to chip in, maybe

even to do with— I know when I'm preparing a talk, there's usually so much that,

you know, from your research that you can't actually put in the talk. So is

there anything that you really wanted to be able to say that couldn't fit in, or

that you'd like to pick up on from what we talked about tonight?

Um, somewhat of a tangent and nothing in line with what you just said, but as

we've been speaking, I've been thinking about Galatians 5:22-23. But the fruit

Galatians 5:22–23

of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness,

faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. It does not list frustration with

others, minor grievances, major grievances, and I think it's good to bring back

our focus to this passage and think, right, the situation I'm in right now, what

are my fruits here? Are they the fruits of the Spirit, or are they something

that's not listed here? And if it's something that's not listed here, especially

if it's negative, then there's something I need to deal with.

Yeah, I think Yeah, I think we're coming to the end of our discussion really,

but Mike, have you got any last things you'd like to jot in?

Well, I suppose just to remind you about Corrie ten Boom. Corrie ten Boom said

you cannot forgive. She couldn't do it, but she made the conscious decision to

lift her hand and to place it in the hand of the garden. Uh, the guard— not the

guard, God. But as she did that, as she made that choice to follow the command,

God gave her the strength to be able to then forgive from her heart. And, you

know, that, that is, you know, as you were saying, where we have to come back to

all of the time. Um, you know, it is only in God's strength that we are able to

do this.

Yeah. Any last things from you, Ade?

No, other than God has given us all we need in his word and, you know, in the

community around us. And if you find that you do not have a community of

believers around you, be it never searched before, location, can't get to

church, then please You know, reach out to, reach out to Crowd through the

website. We would love to hear from you.

Yeah, that's a great segue into, um, just saying we will finish our conversation

for tonight. But yeah, there are other ways of connecting with us and becoming

part of the community. So on Wednesdays, like we've mentioned, we have Alpha. So

if you're someone who is, um, looking into the Christian faith, or maybe you're

new to the faith, or maybe you've been a Christian for a while but you've just

got lots of questions and you want to go back to the basics, um, Alpha will be

great for you. We also have other communities that are at the same time on a

Wednesday, 7:30 online. Um, so again, you can, I think, connect through the

website. Is that right?

More info on the site.

More info on the site, yeah. So yeah, do join us and be part of the community.

Thanks for joining us tonight and for all your comments. Fabulous as usual, and

it's goodbye from us. Bye.