Pastors, Peace, and the Emerald Isle

Brandon Billings: Welcome to the Hopeful Church. Today our episode will look a little bit different. Instead of our typical interview style episode, this episode will reflect on the recent Nashville Preaching Cooperative trip to Ireland and Northern Ireland. In this episode, we'll hear stories and questions from pastors that went on this journey. This is Pastors, Peace, and the Emerald Isle. August 10th, it's 8 p.m. in Charlotte, North Carolina. By some miracle, we'll be on a flight to Dublin set to arrive at 9 30 a.m. after countless delays on our original flight plan through Philadelphia. I'm sitting in the Charlotte Airport Food Court, sharing a warm and gooey cinema with a few other pastors that are on my same flight schedule. Nearly all of them are from different denominations, backgrounds, and theological persuasions. By many accounts, this trip shouldn't make any sense. Why would any of these pastors be together? And why Ireland? I'll answer the latter question first. I don't have the time or the expertise to explain all of the dynamics at play in the Troubles, but here's a short crash course. For three decades, Northern Ireland experienced a period of intense violence and disorder, often called the Troubles. Over 3,500 people were killed, most by paramilitary organizations, with others killed by British security forces. Although tensions were brewing for hundreds of years, the immediate roots of the troubles were in the late 1960s, when many Catholics, who we'll come back to in a second, in Northern Ireland were inspired by the American Civil Rights Movement to march for their rights as many Catholics faced discrimination in voting, housing, and employment in Northern Ireland. Generally, this violence is attributed to a clash between Protestants and Catholics, but those categories only scratch at the surface. Calling this religious conflict misses much deeper political and national identities at play. More precisely, there were three broad camps: nationalists, who are predominantly Catholic and wanted a united Ireland, and Unionists, who are predominantly Protestant and wanted Northern Ireland to remain part of the United Kingdom, and British security forces, who are often interning suspected paramilitary combatants without trial. Even these categories are broad, and there's deeper layers of class. social status and geography contributing to this conflict. So for the next thirty years, Northern Ireland lived through sustained political violence. You might be walking to the pub when a car bomb goes off without warning. You might be going Christmas shopping and find yourself searched for weapons or explosives at the door. Violence was often indiscriminate too. The majority of those killed throughout the troubles were actually civilians, not combatants. Now I'm skipping over a lot of history, but the Good Friday Agreement, which was signed in 1998, ultimately created the framework for peace and largely marked the end of this sustained political violence. Even after this agreement, tensions often run high. The tentacles of the troubles run underneath so many parts of society. And when you're there, you feel it. This thick tension and vague answers. Skeptical looks when the quote other side is brought up. And the occasional burning of four-story-tall bonfires, one of which we saw being constructed while we were there. You may have even noticed some anti-immigrant riots at Belfast in June of 2026, violence that brought back painful memories of the troubles to the surface. For many of its residents. If you want to dive deeper, I highly recommend The Troubles Podcast and the Rest is History podcast. Now, to my first question: why these pastors? The vision behind the Nashville Preaching Cooperative is to gather a cohort of high-performing Nashville pastors from diverse denominational backgrounds to learn and grow together, ultimately impacting their preaching. And the broader national community. Here's Dr. Daryl Gualtney, the architect of the National Preaching Cooperative. About four years ago, I came to Belfast, Northern Ireland, and I s began to learn about the centuries of work in Ireland and Northern Ireland, what they've done navigating the way that religion and culture and faith all come together in their society. I remember thinking when I came four years ago that this is a place for pastors to come and learn from folks. Who have learned how to talk about conflict and have learned how to weave their faith, their lack of faith, their culture, their politics in everyday life. And what we're trying to do is to learn from people in Northern Ireland, learn from each other so we can be more effective in our own churches, our own congregations, and our own pulpits. This trip is also a partnership with Telos Group. An organization whose mission is to form communities of American peacemakers across lines of difference, equipping them to help reconcile seemingly intractable conflicts at home and abroad. Todd Detheridge, Tellus's co-founder, believes trips or peacemaking pilgrimages, as they call them, are a particularly poignant way for pastors to learn and grow. I think life in ministry always takes place in context. But sometimes we have to kind of get out of our own context and out of the familiar to see some things clearly. And one of the really ⁓ beautiful things that happens when we travel is that we have a chance to see other things in different contexts, but that that help us understand our own reality better sometimes as well. So coming to a place like Northern Ireland where there's a a long history of conflict and the work of Peacemaking and reconciliation, which is a very ongoing project here, is a really almost kind of neutral ground for American leaders to come and understand ⁓ a different reality. But also, while they're here, to to as you're learning from people doing the work of peace and justice and reconciliation, you're also learning about the things that create communal division, the thing the ways that theologies and ⁓ faith can sometimes be weaponized against vulnerable people, but also the ways our theologies and our faith give us pathways to help to make the world more whole and just. And sometimes you can see that more clearly when you're outside your normal reality and you're entering into somebody else's story. A lot of the work of peacemaking in particular is about getting proximate to people on the people who are vulnerable, people who are doing incredibly important work in difficult circumstances. People who are living out their faith and other ⁓ values in really important ways. Getting proximate to the vulnerable and those living out their faith. That can't happen from afar. That has to happen next to one another. Here's Jeremy Rose, pastor of the Axis Church just north of Nashville. The key to peacemaking, from what I'm learning, is trying to find understanding long before judgment. ⁓ And so just listening, asking more questions. It's ⁓ it's remarkable how much I've learned on this experience. And because I didn't really know a lot of the nature behind this trip to Ireland. ⁓ I knew the big ideas, but it but now being here, it's like, ⁓ I get it. Like being here, hearing the common folk just talk about the struggles, talk about their experiences, talk about the history that I had no idea about. Instead of this podcast becoming a trip report, listing at every person we talked to and every place we went, I'm going to group our conversations into themes and some takeaways that some of these pastors were bringing away from the trip. We'll start with humility and prayer. So many conversations we had with those that are building bridges across difference had a humility about them that they understood that their perspective was not the only perspective. For those that were Christians that we spoke with, there was a prayerful self-examination taking place. These individuals were really asking the Lord, show me where division is in my heart. Show me where I have self-righteousness and hatred for the other, and would you reveal that? Here's Carol Kavan Dillon, pastor of West End United Methodist Church in Nashville. For some reason, one of the conversations that really landed in my heart was meeting Father Thierry at a monastery in Newry ⁓ on our way from Dublin to Belfast. And he's a French monk, and there was a group of French monks who felt called to move toward the conflict in Northern Ireland and to pray for peace and then to build spaces where people could could gather i in their differences and pray together and ⁓ and build peace in relationship. And I was just really moved by by that quiet faithfulness of prayer and the reminder that what love is is just as you were saying, meeting people right where they are and making space for their stories in the hope that that can lead toward healing. One thing that I had also written down from Thierry in my notebook was that he believed self-reliance was the great sin, that humility was a key Christian virtue. We need others. We need other churches. And when I experience those that are different than me, I experience Christ. One, I'm I'm ignorant. ⁓ two, I need to find understanding. Three, I need to be very, very slow to throw a judgment, even with understanding. ⁓ just be slow. That was Jeremy Rose again of the Axis Church just north of Nashville. Here's Micah Edmondson, pastor of Koinania Church in Nashville. Quick to listen and slow to become angry. I think that that wisdom is really something that is sitting with me in terms of the practical realities of peacemaking. even when we vehemently disagree with somebody's ideology or perspective, or even if we have been hurt by them. ⁓ actually being slow to speak, ⁓ actually extending the hospitality and the grace of creating space to hear their perspective, ⁓ to be quick to listen to their perspective and to walk with them in love. So quick to listen, slow to speak. Are you hearing a pattern yet? Peacemaking begins with examining ourselves. Who do we fear? What pain do we dismiss? Can we listen to others without being dismissive or disfensive? You just heard Reverend Dr. Paula B. Smith from Gordon Memorial United Methodist Church in Nashville. And she poses an important question. Can I listen to someone who thinks differently than me without becoming defensive or dismissive? So if the starting point is humility, quietness, and prayer, then what does peace look like? What does false peace look like? Seeing a lot with the questions of weaponized religious language. And I'm sitting with the questions of language of peace when it's really just the absence of conflict. and how we've seen that with literal physical walls here and how helpful it's been and how but also how people acquiesce their their participation in peace to the wall and not into the ongoing relationship and building bridges. That's Adam Bazaard, former pastor and current director of United for Pastors, an initiative that brings together pastors in Nashville from all backgrounds. And when you hear him say physical walls, he's not kidding. In Belfast, we walked around the famous peace walls, giant corrugated metal sheets topped with barbed wire fences that separated warring Catholic and Protestant communities. One local we talked to called them War Walls. Which seemed like a much more fitting name. When our definition of peace is broken, we often settle for these so-called peace walls. Peacekeeping is not peacemaking. That's Glenn Money, pastor of First Baptist Church in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. And we Southerners are so good at dancing around real issues. Keeping peace may even be an enemy of making peace. And we've got to do that internally and externally within our churches. And it's a hard thing, but I think it's also a privilege as a pastor. To at least attempt to lead that and hope that we can find the courage not just to keep peace but to make peace. One of the most striking conversations on this journey was with a Presbyterian pastor named Karen Campbell. Karen is on a journey of helping her community walk through the grief, complicity, and violence that tore communities apart and the troubles. She helps survivors and first responders of attacks and bombings compose a collection of hymns and prayers called Considering Lament, Psalms of Protest, Pain, and Hope. This resource will be linked in the show notes for you to check out later. Here's Pastor Glenn Money again. After Karen's presentation, I got to hang behind with one or two of the other participants. And she talked about some writing she had done about lament. And in that, she put forth the idea that the opposite of lament is not rejoicing. The opposite of lament is dishonesty. It's denial that we have anything to lament over, or denial about the reality of how much we do have to lament. And so that really spoke to me. Being honest about that, giving us that opportunity to sit with all that is not as it should be in our world, in our country, in our communities, in our relationships, and yes, in our churches. And perhaps have that lament will give us the incentive and the opportunity to work towards reconciliation, the ministry of reconciliation that we've all been given. Ministry of Reconciliation that we've all been given. Now, in just a second, we're going to talk about change and impacting a community, but I want to take a brief moment to let you know about the work that we do. At the Mensch Center for Church Leadership at Belmont University, we're strengthening church leaders for a changing world. This podcast episode and TRIP are a part of the National Preaching Cooperative Initiative. Which is funded by the generosity of the Lily Endowments Compelling Preaching Program. We are so grateful for their support. Go to Mensch Center, M-O-ENCH Center dot com to learn more about our programs and don't forget to follow us on Instagram and YouTube at MCCL Belmont for resources, coaching, and programs for pastors and church leaders in Nashville and beyond. Now, back to the episode. Throughout this journey, we met with those that are on the front lines of community impact and peacemaking efforts. Even though the Good Friday Agreement was signed in 1998, society is still fractured in many places. What does progress look like? And how do peacemakers impact their communities for good? Here's Pastor Carol Kavan Dylan from West End United Methodist Church in Nashville. I think in some ways I was naively hoping to come and see how the peacemaking process worked. In a place where there was such hostility that there was violence and and killing of one another. And I think one of the things I've learned is that it's an ongoing work and just seeing the parallels in many ways between what's happening here, what's happening in the United States, and the tools that we can learn from our neighbors here of how to build peace where we are. One of the things that that really stuck out to me. was ⁓ persistent incremental change. ⁓ the idea that we're you're not gonna get it all at once, but to be patient, ⁓ to be ⁓ persistent, and ⁓ to be wise in in helping to move the congregation forward and folks forward. People are really dealing with complex situations. There are tremendous risk involved and the work is inherently risky. But if we really want practical, realistic change, we have to meet people where they are and then walk them forward. Mike is not exaggerating here. There is risk of going too far too fast when it comes to peacemaking. We heard firsthand from local clergy in Northern Ireland that some pastors that push for peacemaking efforts before their congregation is ready can get removed from their church by upset members. Some clergy even experiencing threats and having to move. Even 30 years later, the wounds are still fresh. There's a prayerful intentionality and discipleship posture that. And leaders must take when building bridges. Here's Kristen Clark Banks, who recently stepped down as pastor of Forest Hills United Methodist Church in Nashville. She's recently taken up a conference position in the Methodist Church to work towards discipleship-making efforts in Nashville and beyond. Peace does not happen accidentally. It takes intentionality, it takes consistency, it takes perseverance, and it's a commit there's a commitment to peace in order to make peace. We've made it to the final part of this episode, and if you've been waiting for a magic solution to bring peace out of intense political and religious conflict, we don't have anything for you. This isn't a new or groundbreaking principle, but rather a simple question straight out of the gospels. Who is neighbor? Labels, how we label each other, how we simplify people's identity to a particular label, is dangerous to peacemaking. It's a barrier to peacemaking. ⁓ I keep hearing this refrain: ⁓ don't settle for a label, pursue a story. Because every person we've talked to has had a different ⁓ experience and perspective, and there have been similarities, but the layers that come together. Through bringing the stories together has just left me with this curiosity of who I need to talk to in Nashville. What stories do I need to hear? Labels. In Ireland and Northern Ireland, these labels might look like Loyalist, Republican, Catholic, Protestant, British, Irish. But here in the States we certainly deal with our own labels. Democrat, Republican, Christian, Presbyterian, Baptist, Methodist, South, Midwest, Rural, Urban. The list goes on. What labels are we settling for when a complex story lies underneath? Here's Dr. Paula B. Smith again. One of the things that I really looked into was what were the common causes of conflict? And the things that I discovered were identity and belonging, fear, othering, unhealed trauma, competing stories, injustice and inequality, separation, political and religious tribalism. What's causes mean to experience someone else's identity? as a threat to my own, as I recognized across conflict these things were all common. What Paula hits on here can't be skipped over. When I'm afraid of or feel threatened by another label, group, political party, I begin to act out of fear towards the other. So how do we maintain our difference while still being in relationship with one another? Adam Bazaard has a front row seat to this in his work with pastors in Nashville. The takeaway that I'm having that I'm sitting with is like, hey, these differences that are really deeply felt and that are historic. differences within churches and within pastors and within theological perspectives. They matter and we can hold them and they can be true for us and we can still come together and work for the flourishing of all people. And to see that has been really uniquely beautiful and challenging for our own context and what it looks like in Nashville and beyond. Tied all together. I asked Carol Cavin Dillon if any scriptures were seeking out to her during this experience. And I think her reflection is fitting. Early on, I can't even remember who it was, someone referenced the story of the Good Samaritan. And actually I think it was Todd in his ⁓ presentation, but that this was a person who saw a fellow human being suffering. Even though their identities would have made them enemies, ⁓ he was drawn to the suffering of another human being, whereas the the religious folks walked on by. ⁓ and then last night the pastor mentioned the story of Cain and Abel, and that question, you know, am I my brother's keeper? ⁓ came to me. And the answer is yes. And everyone is our neighbor, and yes, we are our brothers and sisters' keepers. Here's Dr. Paula B. Smith, one last time. So I'm left with this question. Are we becoming people secure enough in Christ that we don't need an enemy to know who we are? The work of learning and loving your neighbor is slow work. It's not flashy, it's messy, it's costly even. Sometimes it's two steps forward and one step back, but the call of Christ is the call to love. And as the Apostle Paul writes in 1 Corinthians, if we as Christians do not have love, we gain nothing. So here we are. It's the end of day nine, and we're heading back to the hotel for the last time before we head home. And what do I hear? Joy, laughter, camaraderie. Just hours before we were singing and dancing together in a pub in a small town called Bally Castle in Northern Ireland. ⁓ my love see the Lord And the sea what's here instead is together we would go A group of strangers that have become friends and co-laborers for the gospel. Do they all agree on the same theology? Certainly not. Do they practice worship in the same ways? Not at all. But are they wrapping arms around one another, listening to each other's stories, and praying for one another? Absolutely. The sea was here and said it's together we would go. In addition to traveling to the different places and meeting the people who live here, I have built relationships with people in Nashville that I never knew before. My relationships with my fellow United Methodists have deepened. ⁓ My relationships with people of other denominations, of other cultural backgrounds. And so I'm really sensing the power again of those the multiple stories and the different perspectives. And how that's not just an addition or a luxury, but a necessity. And so the intentionality for peacemaking isn't just about repairing the broken places out in the world. It's about becoming, bringing the fragmented pieces of Christian denominations and Christian brothers and sisters together. And that is also an essential part of making peace in our community. It's fitting to end this episode circling back to lament. I mentioned the resource that Pastor Karen Campbell put together called Considering Lament. And on our final day in Belfast, we actually had the opportunity to sing, pray, and lament with this resource. We sang Psalm 64 together, which was written with community members of Arma, one that was particularly ravaged by violence during the Troubles. The lyrics to the last verse say: May your people fear the Lord. May your people fear the Lord. The righteous will rejoice. And glory in your works. May your people fear the Lord. May your people fear the Lord. May your people fear the Lord. The righteous who rejoice and glory in your words. May your people fear the Lord. Thanks for listening to this special episode of The Hopeful Church, Pastors, Peace, and the Emerald Isle. If you like this episode, please make sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and rate us five stars. This episode was written, produced, and engineered by Brandon Billings. All music is from Epidemic Sound, and our theme music is composed by Brandon Billings. To learn more about National Preaching Cooperative, Telos Group, the Lily Endowment, or Belmont University, please use the links in our show notes. See you next time on the Hopeful Church.