Inside Out: A Candid Conversation on True Righteousness

You're listening to The Bible Guys, a podcast where a couple of friends talk

about the Bible in fun in practical ways. Well, good morning everyone.

Here we are. My name is Chris and I'm Jeff, and we are

the Bible Guys. I can't believe we just instinctively did that. That's so

funny. So if in case you're wondering, we never script anything. We

just wing it. So that's funny that the only difference is you sort of

sang it. The Bible Guys. I figured you were going to stay right

at the pitch you were at. Oh love you a little bit. So

hey, today we're gonna start out with a segment called mail bags. I

love mail bags. Mail bags are great mailbags. We always say mail bags.

We always sing that one. So, uh, mail bags is somebody

who just writes in and just wants to communicate with us, So we are

always careful to say we love responses, we love questions. So email us

at info at the Bible guys dot com and we would love to consider your

question because normally we love it when you send us a question. But Erica,

oh you crossed the line. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, this

one, this one says, I have really enjoyed listening to both of you

every morning on my way to work. Eric, that's nice. We often

get to see your silly sides. But I wanted to ask, what are

some of your favorite characteristics about each other? What? Yeah, we're gonna

get serious. So, Jeff, what are your favorite characteristics about Chris?

So, Jeff, what are your favorite characteristics about Chris? And vice versa?

Well Erica, Erica, Oh, that's a little presumptuous to assume that

we have fondness for each other. Jesus serious, all right, So Chris

and I have how long we've known each other? For eighteen years or something

like that, eighteen nineteen. It's been eighteen years because I came to Heritage

in March of two thousand and six, and we hung out at a retreat

in Jane of two thousands. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah wow, Okay,

yeah yeah, so like eighteen years. And one one of my favorite

things about Chris, just on a surface level, is he's very clever and

quick, and it's rare that I find somebody that's as clever and as quick

as I am. So Chris regularly puts me in my place, catches me

and it just makes me laugh. So that's one of them. The other

one is Chris's heart and passion for getting the Gospel to people who don't know

Jesus is a really big one, right, and making the what we teach

be as as understandable as possible. So those two things, and then man,

he's a real family man, real family man. So those are the

things I love about Chris. All right. So but don't tell him,

Erica, don't don't don't tell him that I said that. All right,

Here's what I would say. I would say, You've got a super big

compassionate heart for people. Well, and it's and it's oftentimes people that you

have uh no responsibility to have compassion on, you know, So like you

you would hear a situation about a person and you feel ownership for that person.

And uh, I've seen you do it many times. You did it

with me, uh you've done it with staff members. I've seen you do

it with with a fellow people in in ministry, where you just have a

super big heart for them and want to help them and take care of them.

So I think that that is that's huge. And then also I would

say, uh, I know, I know and then I would also say,

uh, you are very uh uh. I've not seen too many people

willing to uh. I don't know how to say it without saying it like

like, uh, you brought me on staff and gave gave me a lot

of your responsibilities and a lot of the things that you love, which means

like there's there's humility there, there's a there's a no ego kind of a

thing, and you're willing to let me shine. And I think that that

is really rare. I think that's really really rare. We've we've only seen

that. I think I think I've only seen that a couple of times in

my whole life, where somebody is really willing to say, hey, I'm

secure enough, you know, I'm okay to have somebody come in and shine

bright uh And I'm okay with that. So so yeah, there's there's a

lot of there's a lot in there. There's like there's a lot of humility.

And the third thing I was I would say is you're really open to

changing your mind. And even though that you debate well and and a lot

of people won't won't argue with you, right, and they're just like,

hey, it's just a losing battle for you for you to just talk with

Jeff. And that's true because you debate. Well, I would say,

the other thing is, but as long as you're willing to hang. I've

seen you some times ago. Okay, I changed my mind. You've convinced

me, and so you were very willing to do that. So there you

go. Well I think that as a compliment. Yeah, good, well,

thank you, Chris. Yeah, that's nice. That felt really gross

the whole thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, don't make us do that

again. Yeah, And then we've just been we've been buddies for a second.

The joy out of the room exactly, ruining the whole day. But

we've been buddies for quite a while. Everything that we ever did before we

started working together full time, we always had fun. It was just we'd

stay up too late. We'd be you know, laughing a lot and at

the same time strategizing, trying to figure out how to make a difference,

whether you know, we were in Cuba, we were in Kenya or different

places, you know, working on stuff. And then if you don't know,

there's a secret video out there somewhere. For my tenth anniversary, Chris

did one of the most brutal roasts for me in front of about my mom

and add my wife and my children and about one hundred of my friends on

our tenth anniversary years at the request of Chasmine. Okay, Chad, Chad.

Chad is the one who brought me in and he told me to go

full on. It was brutal. So, uh, there's a lot of

that. We just we have a lot of fun together, and I think

it's just really great too. I think we have a relationship. I don't

know what your relationship like you with your brothers is, but my relationship with

you is like my relationship with my brothers, right, just constantly busting each

other's chops and laughing, but really significant. So yeah, it's fun.

I decided a long time ago that we would be better together than apart.

At least I would be better with you on the team. So yeah,

that's awesome. Okay, let's stop that. Yeah right, let's move on

God's work. Like I said, Erica is so unbelievably presumptuous that we had

nice things to say about it. What the heck? Yeah? Yeah,

all right, well, hey, today we're going to talk about he likes

long walks on the beach Erica. That's right, that's right. And puppies.

He loves puppies and long walks on the beach. Okay, so so

today Matthew twenty three, I actually do like both of those. Yes,

I know. Okay. Do you like long walks in the beach? No?

I hate walking in the sand? Hate it? Do you? Yeah?

Yeah, yeah, I like to go to the beach and they sit

out. Yeah no, not me, man. I walk the coast.

You know where the shoreward it hits the beach, you know where it's packed,

it's more a little bit more solid. Well, I'm an extrovert.

Yeah, yeah, so I love it. I like to go talk to

peopeople watching. No, not necessarily walking over and talking to people, because

they're all wearing bathing suits, that's weird, but just two people watch and

then you know, hear the ocean, all that stuff. I like.

When we're to the beach. My wife usually rents a cabana. Yeah.

We kind of pull it up, block ourselves out from everybody else and just

enjoy the water. Yeah. So, anyways, Matthew, Chapter twenty three,

verse thirteen, Jesus is again challenging these religious leaders. Last couple of

days last week. Yep, he was busting their chops a little bit.

Yeah, and then they quit asking him questions, so he pivots. Now,

well, he knows the end is near, and he's not holding back

any punches. Right, Well, he wants to. He's trying to shake

the people off of their old premises and one of the things that most of

their life premises were built around these religious leaders. So here goes. He

says this in verse thirteen of chapter twenty three of Matthew. What sorrow awaits

you, teachers of religious law, you pharisees, hypocrites, For you shut

the door of the Kingdom of God in people's faces. You won't go in

yourselves, and you don't let others enter either. What sorrow awaits you,

teachers of religious law? And you Pharisees, you hypocrites, for you cross

land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into

twice the child of hell that you yourselves are, you blind guides. What

sorrow awaits you, for you say that it means nothing to swear by God's

temple, but that it is binding to swear by the gold in the temple,

blind fools? Which is more important the gold or the temple that makes

the gold sacred. And you say that to swear by the altar is not

binding, but to swear by the gifts on the altar is binding. How

blind, for which is more important, the gift on the altar or the

altar that makes the gift sacred. When you swear by the altar, you're

swearing by it and everything on it. And when you swear by the temple,

you are swearing by it and by God who lives in it. And

when you swear by Heaven, you're swearing by the throne of God and by

God who sits on the throne. What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law,

and you pharisees hypocrites, For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest

income from your herb gardens, but you ignore the more important aspects of the

law, justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes,

but do not neglect the more important things. Blind guides. You strain your

water so you won't accidentally swallow a gnat, but you swallow a camel.

What sorrow awaits you you teach as a religious law, and you pharisees hypocrites

for you are so careful to clean the outside of the cup and the dish,

but inside your filthy, full of greed and self indulgence. You blind

Pharisee, First wash the inside of the cup and the dish, and then

the outside will come clean too. What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law,

and you Pharisees hypocrites, For you are like whitewashed tombs, beautiful on

the outside, but filled on the inside of the dead people's bones and all

sorts of impurity. Outwardly you look like righteous people, but inwardly your hearts

are filled with hypocrisy and lawlessness. What sorrow awaits you, teachers are religious

law, and you Pharisees hypocrites, For you build tombs of the prophets your

ancestors killed, and you decorate the monuments of the godly people your ancestors destroyed.

Then you say, if we had lived in the days of our ancestors,

we would never have joined them in killing the prophets. But in saying

that, you testify against yourselves that you are indeed the descendants of those who

murdered the prophets. Go ahead and finish what your ancestors started. Snakes sons

of vipers. How will you escape the judgment of hell? Therefore, I'm

sending you prophets and wise men and teachers of religious law. But you will

kill some by crucifixion, and you will flog others with whips and your synagogues,

chasing them from city to city. As a result, you will be

held responsible for the murder of all godly people of all time, from the

murder of righteous Able to the murder of Zachariah, son of Barachia, whom

you killed in the temple between the sanctuary and the altar. I tell you

the truth. This judgment will fall on this very generation. That was so

gee. I wonder how Jesus feels about the Pharisees. Yeah, super,

super harsh. Hey, if this was on Facebook, he typed that entire

thing in caps no kidding, no kidding, or Twitter or whatever. That

is unbelievable, man, he went after it. Yeah, and uh,

you know, and again we talked about this just last week. But uh,

you know the idea that that you know that there was no good in

the Pharisees, you know, and I don't give them credit. Uh,

and you you just said, hey, it could have been that they thought,

you know, that they didn't have to have their whole heart being a

good person. They just had to follow the law and I and I received

that. But Jesus here is clearly saying, yeah, some really harsh things.

Okay, first, running people's lives is what he's saying. Yeah,

he's saying, he's saying, you're like I think the worst one was,

you're like whitewashed tombs, right, You're you're you're white on the outside.

Uh, and yet you're full of dead man's bones on the inside. Holy

Christmas. And then snakes vipers, and then you know, hypocrites. Hypocrites

seem to be a theme. Yeah, right, yeah, hypocrites, they

always say, hypocrites. Yeah. I'm watching The Chosen right now. And

did you know that as of right now, I just heard yesterday that Chosen

season four. I guess maybe the I don't even know, but somebody invited

me and said, hey, it's season fours at the theaters right now.

We just finished season three, my wife and I both and uh, and

just in case I got to put a caveat because everybody probably around the world

knows The Chosen, The Chosen is not straight gospel. Uh, so the

reason why they call it I believe. I think this is true. I

think the reason why they call it the Chosen, my brother told me,

is because he unpacks the lives of those that Jesus chose, right. So

it's like, so it's like everybody he chose to heal, everybody he chose

to, you know, follow him. What they do is they sort of

suppose what it must have been like. So if there's only just like a

sentence of saying, Jesus heals the blind man, that's it. That's all

it says. What they do is they sort of create a story of like

they show this blind man, you know, what it must have been like,

and all these things happen to him, and they give them a name,

you know, hey Bill, you know whatever, and then and then

all of a sudden, by the time he gets to Jesus, uh,

you know, and then and then Jesus heals him, you feel, uh,

the of what it must have been like, Like, you know,

we read it and go, oh cool, that must have been great for

that man to receive a site. But it's like, no, you don't

understand. It's life changing and that's what that's really what the Chosen. Does

they'll they'll make half an episode over three sentences, yes, right when it

seems like a meaningful story. Yes, and so that's what they do.

And and uh and honestly what ends up happening is uh for me anyway,

for me, Uh, it actually makes a lot of sense theologically. The

guy who makes the Chosen, Dallas Jank, I think, has a lot

of theological grit to him. And I think that he sort of puts together

and makes sense a lot of these conversations in context. And honestly, un

even the ones that are straight Bible, you know, like you just read

the entire conversation straight in the Bible, and all of a sudden, all

of a sudden, when he puts context around it, I'm like, man,

I understand that so much. Anyway, all that to say this when

I unfortunately, when I hear this speech by Jesus, all I see is

the actor for the Chosen, so you envisioned Jesus, I totally can see

the actor going hypocrites right and then and then turning around and looking at the

crowd. And and you know, I'm sort of wired that way by movies.

And uh, and I'm telling you, uh, this must have been

an uprising, right, so we can't read it here, but try to

imagine, like, try to be dramatic with it, try to be uh,

you know, use your imagination of how the pharisees around him must have

reacted. And I'm telling you this would have been this would have been probably

one of the most harsh things up to Jesus ministry at this point. And

it's interesting because he talks about at the very beginning, you shut the door

of the Kingdom of Heaven and people's faces. You won't go in yourselves,

and you don't let others enter either. That's his frustration. Then he just

goes off on them. So by the time he gets done, if the

Pharisees didn't want to kill him before this, right, he does this.

Remember he's teaching in the temple every day. This is likely happening in the

courts of the Temple. Yeah, and right, their whole job was to

bring others to God, right, right in their mind, that's what they

thought, right, And he's saying the opposite, right. Well, he

says, you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you

turn that person into twice the child of Hell. You you selves are I

take it back. That's the worst comment. That's the worst comment. Yes,

and then he calls them blind guides all these things. So there's a

note in the Life Application Study Bible Matthew twenty three thirteen says being a religious

leader in Jerusalem was very different from being a pastor in secular society today.

Israel's history, their culture, and their daily life centered around its relationship with

God. The religious leaders were the best known, most powerful, and most

respective of all leaders. Jesus made these stinging accusations because the leaders hunger more

for power, money and status had made them lose sight of God, and

their blindness was spreading with the whole nation. Right, that's why he's going

after them. So it's not like he's just going after a couple of preachers

down the street. You don't even know the pastor down the name, down

the street from your subdivision or something probably. But then the religious leaders were

the stars. They were the stars of society. And so what he said

is, you guys are the ones that are building this religious system that is

taking people away from God instead of drawing them to them. And then the

reason why you know that is because by the time you get to the end.

What he's saying is, I'm going to be sending more prophets, more

preachers to you, and you're going to kill them too. Right, so

you went after the people who are preaching the truth, whether and you mentioned

Zechariah. He mentions even all the way from Able, but he gets to

Zechariah, which is one of the last prophets that was killed. He was

killed in the temple where probably where Jesus is preaching, although you know,

between the sanctuary and the altar, and he's going, I'm going to send

you some more prophets, and you're going to kill them too, because you

hate the Word of God and you hate anything that challenges the construct that you

have of this religion. And so he goes on, he comments, he

compliments them in many ways. You tithe, you strain your water. So

a gnat was an unclean bug. So they would literally pour their water through

filters to make sure they didn't accidentally get a bug in their you know,

little tiny net in their drink because they didn't want to be unclean. And

so they were convinced that the rules of the law were the point. Those

are the point, not a relationship with God, not knowing God, not

having God permeate all of your life. The rules of God permeated their life,

and that's why they were clean on the inside, and they were I

mean on the outside, and they were completely dead on the inside. He

mentions, you're like a washed cup, but on the inside you're full of

filth. You're like a whited sepulcher. You're all clean on the outside,

painted, all pretty on the outside, this beautiful tomb. Have you ever

gone to a fancy cemetery and looked at all the fancy things? Oh?

Yeah. So my wife and I several years ago, are children hated hiking.

So I love being out in nature. Kids hated it. So we

found this thing is called letterboxing, letterboxing dot org or whatever, Atlas Quest.

There's a couple of different websites, but there's hundreds of thousands of these

these basically scavenger hunt kind of things. You have to use clues and all

this stuff. So one day we were getting ready to it was my wife's

birthday and she wanted to go away. We didn't have a lot of money,

so I didn't have a lot of money go do something, So I

just drew a five hour circle around our house, and it turns out and

I was just looking for where it's going to be the nicest weather, and

it turned out it with Cincinnati. So I'm looking around trying to figure out

this letterboxing thing. Hey, we could do that. That's free. I'll

just get a hotel. We'll drive down and spend two days. And it

turns out the second largest cemetery in the US is in Cincinnati. Well,

and there are some super famous people. Procter and Gamble are both buried there,

and they have these huge monuments. There's I think there's a former president,

there's governors, there's generals, are all buried there. It's really a

big deal. And they have these massive, massive monuments, right, and

huge sepulchers, and they build these big buildings. It's really a magnificent kind

of a place. And so we spent like two days in that and it

was funny We're going around taking pictures of where dead people are, right,

because you just get so sucked in to look how beautiful these things are.

And it just reminded me but on the inside, we wouldn't want to see

anything on the inside, right, Right, it was just how incredibly ornate

and fancy it was on the outside. That's exactly what Jesus is trying to

say, is you're so beautiful and fancy on the outside. You look great,

you look like you're right, and you're completely dead inside spiritually. That's

awesome. Yeah, and well it's an awesome challenge. Yeah. I mean,

like the imagery I'm so impressed with is why I said awesome, Right,

Yeah, like Jesus is able to use snakes, he's able to use

sepulchers and tombs, he's able to use camels and gnats. I mean all

these different types of things. And that's what I mean. It's like it's

Jesus is awesome in these comparisons. So, but yeah, you're right,

it's not awesome. What I was going to say is when he said you

strain to not swallow a nap, but you swallow a camel, it actually

says see Leviticus eleven four and twenty three, where gnats and camels are both

forbidden as food. And so that that helps to know what he's really saying

is he's saying, you know, you work so hard to pay attention to

the little things, but you're neglecting justice, mercy, and you know,

and faith. And he's saying, you swallow a camel. It's like,

how could you be so you know, foolish as to swallow a camel.

He's like, don't you understand what you're actually doing? Right? Right?

You're paying attention to these things and you're neglecting these things. It's like you're

swallowing your camel. I think that's incredible imagery. Yeah. He's really challenging

what's inside versus what's outside. And he's not saying you shouldn't make sure the

outside is right. Yeah. Right, he's saying that you shouldn't that.

What you're doing is you're ignoring the most important things. Justice, mercy,

faith. Yeah. Right, So there's it's interesting there's a few places in

the Bible where it talks about the most important things. We just read a

couple days ago, the greatest commandments, Love God, love people. Right,

what's the greatest commandments? When when you look at all six hundred and

seventeen laws, what's the greatest commandments? Love God, love people? Here,

Jesus says, don't ignore the most important things, right, justice,

mercy, faith. Paul later on writes, you know, there's only three

things that are really going to last, faith, hope, and love.

The greatest these things is love, right, I really pay attention to those.

Solomon said, the principal thing is wisdom, So therefore get wisdom.

Whenever you get these little lists like that, just understand God is giving you

a chance to kind of take a glimpse at what is he really looking for?

Right and this rate here, justice, mercy, and faith, those

are all inside things. And maybe a takeaway for an application for our listeners

from this passages. We know some people, don't we who like religiosity more

than they do God himself. So he says, you know, he says,

you know what's gold? What's better gold or the temple that makes the

gold sacred? When you swear by heaven, it's actually the throne of God.

And so it's not these religious things that you're a part of. It's

God himself. And so a lot of times we can we can like going

to church. We could like on the outside people seeing us go to church,

but in the inside we have to challenge ourselves and say, do we

care about what's most important? Does God have our heart on the inside?

And I think that a lot of times, you know, we could be

that way. We can have a show on the outside that God and not

have our heart on the inside, and that's really the heart of this.

Wow, that's exactly it. All right, Well, hey listen, that's

our time and so we will see you next time on the Bible. Guys,