Unraveling Mysteries: Stump the Pastor Special

You're listening to The Bible Guys, a podcast where a couple of friends talk

about the Bible in fun, in practical ways. Hey, well, my

name is Chris Zarba and I'm Jeff Forster, and we're the Bible Guy.

We are the Bible Guy. Yes, And so we have a very special

episode scheduled for you today because our series ended sort of midweek and so we

thought, you know, Ashley Desiree thought it would be a good idea to

throw some bonus episodes together. And she's clearly the brains behind the operation,

of course. And also, this is one of our favorite segments and some

of our listeners favorite segments called Stump the Pastor, And we're doing a compilation

of a couple of different ones that I think you're gonna enjoy today. Yeah,

so sit back and enjoy Stump the Pastor on the Bible Guys. So

today we have a segment called Stump the Pastor. Oh Yes, And this

is written by Brian L. Brian and this is how it reads. The

Bible mentions how Jesus was tempted by the devil but never sinned. Do you

think it was because he was setting an example for us and showing us how

to overcome temptations? Or do you think that Jesus, being the son of

God was physically and otherwise unable to sin? Brian ll wow, well this

is this is a big question, isn't it. Well, this is a

fraught with minefields. So thanks Brian, it just yeah, yeah, well

to those who in the room. So there are are fields of thought on

both sides of this issue. Was it possible for Jesus to sin so because

he was one hundred percent man? Was it possible to sin? On the

other side because he was one hundred percent God? God can't sin? So

right, well, then if Jesus couldn't sin, then was it really a

temptation? Right? Was he just going through the motions? I think that's

kind of what Brian is asking here. I think so too, But he

hasks it with only two ideas. Isn't it true though, that, like

either answer is a heretic according to the other sides of pampe Oh yeah,

so there. Throughout Christianity there have been various heresies that have sprung up on

both sides that you know, Jesus wasn't actually man, or that he was

less man and more God, or whatever or the other side. So you

know, alls I would say is we're going to stumble through this a little

bit. We're going to give our opinions on it. And all of the

YouTube theologians out there that want to fire off a bunch of angry emails at

us, Hey, we've been called heretics by better than you probably so so.

But here's here's the thing. There's a third piece to this. So

he says, was he going through the motions to show us how to overcome

temptation? Or was this a legitimate temptation that you know, or because he

was God, then it wasn't a temptation, right, Those would be the

side the sides of this equation. So here's what I would say. I

believe that it was one a legitimate temptation. Yeah you said, there's the

third thing. Yeah, I forget where I was going with it. Oh

okay, okay, yeah. Oh so the power the Holy Spirit. So

so I believe that Jesus, everything Jesus did, Jesus said, you'll be

able to my followers will do greater things than I do, and it is

because of the Holy Spirit. Right, So I believe that what Jesus did

is he walked in the whole power the Holy Spirit as a man is what

he did, even as he was perfectly God. And that's that's a So

let's get back to the temptation. You said they're legitimate temptations. I think

that they were one hundred legitimate temptations. Yes. So I wrote a paper

on this in college, by the way, and got an F. Which,

by the way, before you say that, because hebrew says he was

tempted in every way right, even as we were, and even as we

were, and he didn't he chose not to sin, and that that verse

implies that he can relate to how we struggle. That's right, right,

that's and if and if it's impossible for us to sin, that's the only

way they could be the same. That's right. But if it's possible for

us to sin, then he can relate to our struggle. Yeah, So

I wrote a paper on this in college and got an F. So he

gave me an A for writing and structure and an F for content. Disagreed

with what I said and warned me that I was a heretic on this,

but I was trying to split the difference. Here's what I believe I believe

that Jesus was one hundred percent God, one hundred percent man. As God,

the Bible says he cannot sin as man. We're all tempted to sin

in this legitimate right, in the power of the Holy Spirit, he avoided

sinning. I believe that if Jesus had to sind, he would have ceased

to be God, right, is what would have happened. But he did

not sin, And so I think that that temptation was fraught with tremendous danger

all every time Jesus would be tempted to sin, I think it was fraught

with tremendous danger for all of humanity at that point. But being God,

he navigated it perfectly. Right. So I don't think he overcame sin because

he was God. I think he was tempted as a man and overcame sin

in the power of the whole spirit. Right, because if you remember,

the Holy Spirit descended upon him like a dove. Then he went out into

the wilderness to be tempted for forty days. Right. And then, by

the way, the temptations that you see, lust of the flesh, lust

of the eyes, and the pride of life. Those are the three temptations

Satan brought. Those are the three that are recorded, but it says he

was tempted for forty days and forty nights, so it was a different thing.

But what it's highlighting is the fact that Jesus overcame those temptations through the

power of the Holy Spirit and through the Word of God. And I think

that those are the two bullets we have in our gun against the devil too,

is the power of the Holy Spirit and the words of God. Yeah,

that's great. Yeah, And I also want to acknowledge, you know,

the postmodern part of me that says, you know, most of the

time we are given limited information, sure, and so you know, I

mean, we know some things for sure, right, and that's when we

base everything off of it. Right, And we know that it's impossible for

God to sin, that he cannot exist with sin. We also know that

on the US Jesus became sin, right, so he got first Corinthians.

So in other words, he who knew no sin became sin for us,

yes, right, And so now he didn't choose sin. Sin was was

was put upon him, right, like the scapegoat ne Old Testament. Yes,

like the scapegoat in the Old Testament, So we do know that he

still was God in that moment, and yet there was sin on him as

as a person, right, and so in that moment, it's believed that

there was a separation, you know, on the cross on the ninth hour,

which is like three o'clock in the afternoon or in the afternoon, when

he shouts out, my God, why have you forsaken me? The theory

is is that God the Father forsook him, right like he was forsaken turned

his back, so he must have turned his back or or removed his presence,

right, Jesus found himself separated for the first time. And and by

the way, we don't fully understand intrinsically how they work together, really,

so we're taking our best guess on our knowledge because we don't quite understand fully

how that is. But we know for certain that he was forsaken, yes,

right, And we also know forsaken for sure that he was still God,

and he he had sin as a part of who he was. Right,

So God has some way to separate these two things, the flesh right

that the humanity and the God had in some way where Jesus was able to

preserve his deity God was able to preserve the deity of Christ while he became

the embodiment of sin, so that God could bring judgement on It's very confusing

to us. I think that I think the mechanisms of that are far more

complex than we repreence completely. And again, I mean, if God wanted

us to know exactly how it worked, he'd say, let me tell you

how this is going to work. Right, He didn't say any of those

things. So we are left with limited information, you know, to guess

about God. But the things that we cling to certainly, or the things

that we know are true. The fact that he is God and sacrifice was

good enough for us. And at the same time we should be encouraged that

he was tempted just like we are. Yes, but he didn't sin.

And then Paul tells us later or you know in Corinthians that there's no temptation

that's taking you, but such as is common, Deman. But God is

faithful and he will give us a way to escape, right, And so

that way to escape, I believe is through the power of the Holy Spirit

surrendered to him, and through God's words cleaning our minds, changing our minds,

resetting our prayers, ten twelve is what you just quoted, because that's

the first verse I ever rememborized. Oh wow, really yeah, really is

Yeah. So this is an incredibly complex thing, and trust me, I

feel like we did the best we could to walk the razor's edge. Because

there are heresies on both sides of this, it's not unreasonable to ask the

question. I don't know that you build your entire theology over the answer to

this, because it's it's more complex than we can And by the way,

it's worth noting as well that at the moment that Jesus became understand that that

the principles of sin were already in motion for the forgiveness of them, right,

because sin demands of sacrifice, Sin demands of shedding of blood. So

the principles of sin were in motion as he became sin. Right, So

he was already shedding his blood. He was atoning for the sin that he

became. Yes, So so that I mean, there's definitely something there.

It was all happening at the same time, right. It's not as if

God, in his infinite wisdom in infinity past, was just living in sin.

Do you remember remember in what is it? You're a member better than

me. Remember the thing that they tried to put in a box in Thor

movies, they tried to put in the power thing or whatever. Oh are

you are you talking about the Spreaderman movie? No? No, no,

no, no, no, no, it's I forget. Anyways, sometimes

in the superhero movies they try to take this power and put it in a

box, right, to contain this uh, this this power. It's almost

like that's what happened at the Cross. Jesus becomes sin, but it's encapsulated

in the fact that he was atoning for it. God was atoning for this

powerful sin at the same time and contained all of the violence and the danger

and the horror of this sin at the exact same time he was atoning for

it. He became it, right, and it kind of it kind of

encapsulated this in a way that made it possible for him then to defeat death

and sin and hell in the grave, and then his resurrection demonstrates this power.

So anyways, I don't remember what that is, but I think that

maybe you're thinking of a movie that Thor was in that wasn't a Thor movie,

The Tests React, Oh the Tests Act, Yeah, ye, yeah,

which was in Odin's chambers. Yeah, yeah, okay, okay,

Yeah, well they didn't put it in a box. The test Act was

already right in a box. Yeah, but they trying to contain this power

because my mind had about seventy five references of things getting put in a box,

right, right, right, So it's kind of this encapsulated a danger

power thing that happens. Anyways, Well, Sarah g asks this one,

and it is it's a tough one. Do you want me to read it

and you take a shot at it? Sure? Okay, good, I'm

glad you're taking a shot at this one. Yes, So Sarah g asks,

when loved ones pass away, some people say that they're now watching over

us. Do you really think that people and having can look down on earth

and see what's going on? Yeah. So here's the bottom line. Most

of the answers, in fact, almost all the answers to these questions are

we don't know. Because and again, this is the difference between I always

like to say this, it's the difference between the modern church and the postmodern

church. Yeah. So one of the very definitions of postmodernity is being okay

with the mystery of God, you know, as opposed to you know,

the modern era, which says everything that can be known is able to be

known and can be found, which, by the way, was the cause

of all denominations, was in that motern era. Right, it can be

known. We disagree, right, thousands of people disagree denominations. And I'm

not I'm not a guy who just says, hey, who knows. I'm

not that guy. But what I am is I embraced the mystery of God

and saying, like, God only gives us this much information on this topic.

So we have what three or four references that we could look to,

and you know, we have you know, we have the Cloud of Witnesses

verse that people use to talk about this and Hebrews what is it eleven?

Right? And then and then there's the story of the rich Man and Lazarus,

where somebody looks out from eternity and and and has knowledge of somebody on

earth. You know, in heaven there's knowledge of somebody on earth. So

the point is there's only a few different places where we have knowledge. But

for the most part, if God wanted us to know, he would let

us know. So I think the ultimate answer is we don't know, But

I'm going to say this. None of the evidence supports it, none of

the evidence leans toward that truth that our loved ones look down. But ultimately,

I again am the firm believer, just because we only have two or

three little nuggets and none of them lean toward it. All we have left

is logic, yeah, and reasoning and uh, And I would just say,

hey, which got invented? Sure? Sure, But I would just

say, ultimately, it's completely possible, even if there's no evidence for it,

even if logic says, and I know what you're gonna say, uh,

And I I think I leaned toward I think I leaned toward its.

I it's not likely, but I completely am open to getting to heaven and

God saying, oh, yeah, that's completely true. Here's how it's possible.

We do know that angels watch us, right that that that was that

was being spoken there in the last yesterday's or two days ago, is reading

angels watching me. But I would say the logic of it would be if

your loved one was in heaven in eternity, they're outside of time in space

at this point, there is no more disease. It's perfect life for them

to witness every moment of your life dying would be a lot of grief in

heaven. For them to witness every sin you commit while they're sitting next to

the one who paid the ransom for your sin, I think would be tremendous

grief. I think when you start to work out the logic of it,

would it be heaven for them if they were always only grieving over you.

So for us, we have these few delightful moments each day, and those

are the moments we live for, and we live for those vacations and those

beautiful sunsets and things like that. But most of life is a struggle because

we live under a curse. And so I have a hard time believing that

people released from the curse would turn around and watch us living in the curse

all the time. Right, So the logic of it doesn't stand up for

me, But it does come from the very strong Catholic tradition of the saints

are the ones who are intermediaries for us, and they answer our prayers and

take care for us and all those things. But I wasn't teaching that.

Bible teachers that Jesus is our intermediary, he's our intercessor. He's the one

that goes between he's the hero and doesn't reference the idea that saints take care

of us at all. But that's where that tradition would come from, would

be from that idea. So I don't see the logic of it, and

I don't see the biblical enforcement of it, but a reinforcement of it,

But I understand the desire for it unfortuately, yet you want your husband or

your wife who's you know? And by the way, I know people personally

who are refused to think that that's not true. I don't care what you

say. Sure, I'm leaving it open because I know my wife is looking

down on me right now, and there's no way that that's not true.

Like I know that there are people listening here that absolutely are thinking that.

And I'm going to say that again. You can work through the logic of

it which God gave to us, you can look at the different references to

it, but ultimately we just don't know. And h And by the way,

the verse that does say there's a cloud of witnesses. Therefore, because

therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witness as the

Bobble says, the word witnesses doesn't mean people who always are watching, right,

right, because you could witness to your friend, and that means you're

proclaiming the truth, well, testifying the same thing we're testifying of. It's

talking about the ones who came before us that testified of Christ, that's right,

and testified of faith because that whole phrase is in the context of the

Hall of Faith in the Bible. So it's these clouds of witnesses testifying to

the power of faith, right, And so a witness doesn't have to be

just watching in the moment, watching us. It's that they are witnessing,

they are testifying as a witness of the same things we're testifying of. That's

that's really what I made. The author of Hebrews is talking about, which

we'll get to. We'll get to in a few weeks. We'll be in

Hebrews. Yeah. And and by the way, the other thought is more

appealing that you just said, I understand the desire for it, Like it

would be cooler if such a great cloud of witness is meant that there's a

stadium of people who've gone on before us. They're cheering us on, you

know, like like the Roman colisseum, right, right, and that that

may be not to over talk yet, but that may be a little bit

of an over emphasis of the importance of what happens on this planet and this

short little seventy years or eighty years, and it may be an under emphasis

of how incredible eternity is, right, right, So they're in eternity,

and I just I, yeah, it's a great question, Sarah, and

I understand the motive behind it, but I don't know that there's a lot

of reinforcement biblically for it. Yep, that's good. So there's the answer

one. Yeah, that's the best one. That's the best answer we have,

And that might be one of the hardest ones to answer that we've dealt

with so far. Yeah, I think so, because all the rest of

them you can just emphactically go, I don't know, right, and this

one is like ooh, yeah, but I mean the reasoning, you know,

working out the thoughts and the logic of it. Yeah, and the

leanings, because that's all we have is leanings or leanings, and so you

know it it is important and to stack it up against what we do know,

which you know, we sort of referenced already. So this comes from

Angela V. And Angela V writes this question, why do we have to

bear the burdens of Adam and Eve's sin when he God could have arranged things

so that each one of us had the chance to be born with a clean

slate and make our own mistakes free of a tainted universe. But first of

all, wow, what a question. Yeah, that's a thinker's question right

there. Yeah, for sure, you know. I mean, because by

the way that that question is seems to be born out of that's not fair.

Yeah yeah, yeah, right, Wow, It's like I inherited a

sin nature from Adam and Eve? How is that fair? Yeah? I

wish I could have taken my own shot at this sinlessness thing. Yeah yeah,

yeah, Well, one, I think we all would have failed,

you know, yeah on this because we have a free will, and free

wills tend to choose self. Yeah. Well no, true love cannot exist

without free will. So God could have made us like robots. He could

have created us to make us love him and respond, but he doesn't.

He decides to give us free will to choose good and evil, choose love

or not love. And it's because that is truly love, and we are

made and created to love and be a relationship with God. So this whole

human story is a love story. Yes, yeah, yeah, So anyway,

go ahead and continue. Oh boy, So I get to answer this

one? Well, I mean, we could both answer it. I mean,

so one. I think on the surface, the best answer is the

Bible doesn't specifically say why. Sure, well, most of these questions are

I don't know, but there are a lot of Biblical principles that we can

kind of extract from sure, And I think a couple of scientific things.

First off, the Romans Andans both talked about how like in Romans it says,

wherefore is by one man sinned into the world and death by sin?

So death passed upon all men for all of sin. That's the premise behind

this question. Okay, so Adam sinned, and so then now we are

we're all sinners, We're all born with the sin nature. Right. So

then it goes on in Romans and says, so then because one person was

willing to die, he could die for all sin too, the second atom

or the second adom, which is Jesus. Yes, that's right. So

God, So we tend to think of ourselves only from the perspective of being

autonomous individuals, and yes we are, we have a free will, but

we are also part of humanity, and so we all emanate from Adam and

Eve. We all come from them. So things that are broken. So

this this really gets into biology a little bit, the whole concept of progeny,

the idea of the sharing of DNA in order in order to you know,

make the next life. All of these things. And so these two

broken dying creatures, they were living creatures, then they were broken dying creatures.

They were made to live forever, the original Adam. Yes, yes,

they were made to live forever. Then they sinned, and the Bible

says, immediately they began to die. That that was the idea that you

will die in his physical spiritual death. So then at this point then they

had this broken genetics. I believe in the same way that the Bible says

that the whole earth and all of creation groans under the weight of the brokenness

of the universe. Everything broke, Nature broke, everything broke at that point.

And then you know, a man and woman comes together and they blend

DNA, and then that gets passed on, That gets passed on. So

in the process of progeny, the process of new life. We're also being

it's being handed off from already sinful creatures, broken creatures. And it's in

that context then that we are all related back to Adam with the we were

formed. We were created in with sin, right, not in sin,

but with sin. But that's the bad news. The good news is then

that also makes it possible with Jesus being the second atom, Jesus one sacrifice

pays the price for all of humanity as well, which is a beautiful picture.

And and it's it's really something that I don't think people think about,

but it's a great truth to understand that that, you know, generations pass

on the physical and so and then only that, but even our personalities are

very much like our traits, our traits, everything else. But there's also

a spiritual part of every human being. There's a soul and there's a spirit.

Yeah, and so it's important to recognize that it wasn't just a physical

death that was you know, that came from the curse of sin. It

was a spiritual death right and that and that that that they became sin full

and that that portion also gets passed down to us. Yeah, And I

don't understand it all. And you know, the Bible is not a science

book. I believe it's accurate with what it says about scientific things. But

there's a lot of science in there, but it's not a science book,

so it doesn't really get into all these things. But I do know this

that you know it talks about how sin is passed down from generations generation,

that the father sins will be visited on the third and fourth generation. We

do know now here in the last twenty five years or so, as we've

really begun to dig dig into DNA, we do know that there are genetic

predispositions for alcoholism within certain families. Sure that some families, some people they

can touch alcoholics and not a problem. Other people they drink alcohol one time

and they're going to be alcoholics or whatever. That We do know that there

are genetic predispositions for anger. We know that there are genetic predispositions for aggression.

We know that there is genetic predispositions for intelligence and lack thereof. We

know that there's a genetic predisposition for so many things that wind up being negatives

in our life. And that comes because now God did not create us that

way sin broke us, and those broken pieces then get passed on through Adam's

children. That's just what happens. So God didn't create you sinful. God

created your parents perfect, you know in Adam and Eve, and then with

Adam and Eve being broken, all of their progeny is broken and only Jesus

can fix it. You know that movie came to mind. Do you remember

the Emperor's New Groove? Yes, you called Adam and of our parents.

Remember that scene where she goes great great great great great great great aunt.

Remember that no twice removed. You don't remember that? No? Okay,

I'm bout myself. That's pretty it's pretty sophisticated. Though it sounds like yeah,

yeah, yeah, well New Groove is great, so so so yeah,

they are our parents a long time ago. And so the question then

is not just practical, but also there's a second side of that question,

which is couldn't God have done that? Right? So, if God decided

to make every individual born with a clean slate according to this question, right,

and maybe maybe things aren't passed down and we all start brand new.

If life began with storks dropping babies off at houses, yes, right,

where we weren't physically connected, genetically connected to other humans, and every every

parent relationship was just an adoptive relationship where each each person is spontaneously created in

some way. Yeah, that's not what he did. That's not what he

did. And if he did do that, my feeling is all of us

would fail anyway, absolutely, because the Bible tells us that no person can

keep all of the law. That's right, because God is sinless and he

is perfect and and our nature is not that way. I think so.

So the official answer would be, I'm not sure that the Bible actually says

specifically why. He doesn't always say why. He just says what most of

the time. That's right, that's what it does. But I think that

this is a really great thinking question. I think that, Angela, it

really shows kind of a depth of thought in asking it. And I'll be

honest with you, Angela, I've asked those same kind of questions before too.

Yeah, that's great. Yeah, I think it's a really good,

really good way of looking at it. The issue would be this, it's

okay that God didn't do it that way, because if we see this as

a as entirely a love story, then I mean This is that typical epic

story that we tell over and over and over again in our movies. You're

a movie buff in our movies, over and over and over again. Some

of the greatest movies, some of the greatest dramas, the best stories throughout

human history are always, you know, there's the beloved, and the beloved

gets captured away by the evil one or by the dragon, is kidnapped,

is in danger, maybe even tempted to give in to this evil you know,

dragon or whatever. And then the hero comes and that great peril to

himself, willing to sacrifice everything, comes and rescues his beloved and maybe even

has to die in order to set her free and to defeat the evil one.

We tell that story over and over and over again, just with different

different you know, characters or whatever. But we've been telling that story for

thousands of years. And the reason is, I think, deep down is

said, we know that is the story of humanity, right, that really

is right? And so there's some value I think in saying, Okay,

this is the way God chose, and I'm in that system. God's not

unfair. God only always does good, and he delights in the love story.

He's telling. And the good news is you have the ability and the

autonomy to be able to choose love or choose yourself. That's it right,

And by by by turning to the move of the Holy Spirit, he draws

you to the Father. Right. The work of Jesus on the cross pays

the price. But there is a moment when you are confronted with your sin,

and either you repent and turn to Christ and experience the love of Christ

through forgiveness of sins, or you don't. And that is the that's the

story of humanity, and that's the beautiful story that he's telling.