Can Others Be Punished For Your Sin?: 2 Samuel 24:1-25

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Yes, so all right, well that was great. I hope

that you guys are having a great morning.

For most of you, if you're listening on time, real time,

it's Monday morning, and we are going to dive right

into a sort of a strange Well.

When I walked in the studio, I didn't know what

we were talking about today, because so for if you're

new listening to the Bible guys, Chris and I just

kind of approached this with the idea of two guys

like showing up at a coffee shop or something and

sitting down, opening the Bible and talking about what's on

the page. That's right, So we don't look way ahead,

we don't prepare on these things. Desiree. She kind of

helps us work out the order. And so when I

opened it up this morning, I was surprised. And I

told you then, this passage, of all the passages in

the Bible, this one is one of the more complex

for me personally and a little bit frustrating to deal

with today. And I think some of our listeners are

going to come away with this may be tempted to

think that their morality is better than God's morality. Yeah, well,

heck that's a temptation.

That's a heck of a setup right there.

So maybe my opinions are better than God's opinions on

this one.

Which which, by the way, just to throw a sentence

in there as well. It's not that we take a

non preparation approach to our podcast. It is actually more

closely related to like a Bible study in real time. Right,

So if we were to get together in your living

room and have a Bible study we would open the

Bible together, we would read the passage and then and

then ask the questions that we're trained to look for

and ask and say, how does this apply to our lives?

And what's the application and and and all these kinds

of things. So it's a Bible study real time podcast.

So we think that anybody can have a meaningful conversation

about the Bible just looking at the words on the page,

and especially if you have a good little study Bible,

which we like to use the Life Application study Bible,

there's always a few cross references and some ideas to

give a perspective on it. And I think that you

can have a meaningful conversation without having a Bible college degree.

Although we both have pretty deep reservoirs, we've got a

lot of time in the Bible and all those kinds

of things. But what we didn't want to do is

come in with a prepared outline three points, a poem

and a tear jerking illustration, right right. We don't want

that kind of We don't want to come and preach it.

We want to come and just chit chat about it.

And I think that you can have a meaningful discovery.

And so whenever you're going to have that kind of

a Bible study, there's a few questions that you just

kind of build into your thought process. Usually you and

I are looking for something what does this say about

God in this passage? We're also thinking what does this

passage say about people? And then we're looking at things

like is there a sin to avoid? Is there a

promise to claim? Is there an opportunity something that we're

supposed to obey, a command that we should obey? Right,

those kinds of things, And so what you're looking for

is what to say about God? What does to say

about people? What should we do with this? And that's

what we're looking at with just the words that are

on the page and maybe some light cross references based

on some notes at the bottom of the page. And

you can do the same thing. You can do that

with your family. My mom and dad, when they became

Christians were not deep Bible students. They didn't even know.

But my dad had a little study Bible. My mom

had a children's Bible story book and we would read

a story together, and then my dad and my mom

would try to help me and my brothers figure out,

so what does this mean for us today, and man,

I'm telling you it transformed our family's lives as we

began to develop those skills over over days and weeks

and years. And I think you can do the same

thing in this That's why we do what we do

here on the Bob guys. Yeah, So okay, that's great,

so you can do it too. Here we go, Second Samuel,

chapter twenty four. We'll just start in verse one and

we're going to read through twenty five. This is once again.

By the way, are you reading the Chronicles cross references or.

I wasn't going to, But you can also pick it

up in First Chronicles chapter twenty one, the same same passage.

So if you're doing we can't highlight the difference between

the two.

Yeah, and if you're at home and you're studying, that's

what you want to read as well.

Yeah, yeah, you can read them both anyway. So it

says once again, the anger of the Lord burned against Israel,

and he caused David to harm them by taking a census.

Go and count the people of Israel and Judah. The

Lord told him so. The King said to Joe Ab

and the commanders of the army, take a sensus of

all the tribes of Israel, from Dan in the north

to Beersheba in the south, so I may know how

many people there are. But Joeab replied to the king,

May the Lord your God let you live to see

a hundred times as many people as there are now.

But why, my lord the King, do you want to

do this? But the king insisted that they take the census.

So joe Ab and the commanders of the army went

out to count the people of Israel. First they crossed

the Jordan and camped in a roar south of the

town and the valley in the direction of God. Then

they went on to Jaser, then to Gilead and the

land of tadamahadshee. Is that what you say to Dad John,

And that's what you'd say. Then they came to the

fortress of Tire and all the towns of the high

Bites and or the hip Bites, whatever, and the Canaanites.

Finally they went to the south to Judah as far

as Beersheba. Having gone through the entire land for nine

months and twenty days, they returned to Jerusalem. Joe Ab

reported the number to the king. There were eight hundred

thousand capable warriors in Israel who could handle a sword,

and five hundred thousand in Judah. Satan rose up. Oh,

I'm sorry, And then it says, but after they had

taken the census, David's conscience began to bother him, and

he said to the Lord, I've sinned greatly by taking

the census. Please forgive my guilt, Lord for doing this

foolish thing. The next morning, the word of the Lord

came to the prophet God who was David Seer. This

was the message. Go and say to David. This is

what the Lord says. I will give you three choices.

Choose one of these punishments, and I will inflict it

on you. So Gad came to David and asked him,

will you choose three years of famine throughout your land,

three months of fleeing from your enemies, or three days

of severe plague throughout your land. Think this over and

decide answer. I should give the Lord who sent me.

I'm in a desperate situation. David replied to Gad. But

let us fall into the hands of the Lord, for

his mercy is great. Do not let me fall into

human hands. So the Lord sent a plague upon Israel

that morning, and it lasted for three days, and the

total of seventy thousand people died throughout the nation, from

Dan in the north to Beersheba in the south. But

as the angel was preparing to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord

relented and said to the angel stop to the death angel, stop,

that's enough. At that moment, the Angel of the Lord

was by the threshing floor of Aruna the Jebusite. But

David saw the angel. He said to the Lord, I

am the one who has sinned and done wrong, But

these people are as innocent as sheep. What have they done?

Let your anger fall against me and my family. And

so then that day Gad came to David and said

to him, go up and build an altar to the

Lord on the threshing floor of Aruna the Jebusite. So

David went up to do what the Lord had commanded him,

and went Aruna saw the king and his men coming

toward him. He came and bowed before the king with

his face to the ground. Why have you come, my lord?

The King Runa asked, and David replied, I have come

to buy your threshing floor and to build an altar

to the Lord there so that he will stop the play.

Take it, my Lord the King, and use it as

you wish. Aruna said to David, here are oxen for

the burnt offering, and you can use the threshing boards

and the ox yokes for wood to build a fire

on the altar. I will give it all to you,

your majesty, and may the Lord your God accept your sacrifice.

But the King replied to Aruna, I will no. I

insist on buying it, for I will not present burnt

offerings to the Lord, my God that have cost me nothing.

So David painting fifty pieces of silver for the threshing

floor in the oxen, and David built an altar there

to the Lord and sacrifice burnt offerings and peace offerings.

And the Lord answered his prayer for the land, and

the plague on Israel was stopped. Okay, well, let's get

right to it.

Yep, let's get right to it. First verse, let me

point it out, and then you could.

No, no, you point out, and then you explained it.

I know you were going to say, yep, yep. Okay.

So here's the first verse.

It says, once again the anger of the Lord burn

against Israel, and caused David to harm them by taking

a census, and then it's the Lord told him go

and count the people of Israel and Judah. And then

later on you know what, twenty verses later it actually

or no, ten verses later, it says that the Lord

was angered toward David for this sin and then gave

him a punishment. And then on top of that, seventy

thousand people who had nothing to do with David's decision died.

That is quite possibly one of the most confusing passages

of scripture, maybe ever, I know, right, Yeah, And so.

So we talked about should we skip this one?

Yeah, but we did, yeah, only because only because is

there time to unpack it?

Yeah?

Well, and do we want to address it because I'm

confused by it?

Yeah?

And so let's read a couple different you know, as

we all know this, the Life Application and Study Bible

was put together by hundreds of scholars, us smarter people

than us, and they have notes here that were written

that are pretty insightful at times.

So let me start off with this.

At least, why did seventy thousand people have to die

for David's sin? Our society places great emphasis on the individual,

but in ancient times, the family leaders, tribal leaders, and

kings represented the people they led and were expected to

share in the successes as well as the failures of

the participants. David deserved punishment for his sin, but his

death could have resulted in political chaos and invasion by

enemy armies, leaving hundreds and thousands dead. Instead, Got graciously

spared David's life, but he also put a stop to

the plague so that most of the people of Jerusalem

were spared.

God made us work together independently.

Yes, so whether we think it's fair or not, the

group usually suffers because of the sins of the leaders. Similarly,

our actions always affects the people, whether we want them

to or not. We cannot fully know the mind of

God or the severe judgment. We don't know where the prophets.

Okay, then it goes on.

So the bottom line is is, let's let's take care

of that already. Let's take care of the whole like

individual sin versus the group sin.

This is very profound and I think it's difficult for

Americans to think of because we're so individualistic.

Right, Yes, and don't forget like God announced from day one,

and made no apologies about them being His chosen people.

Right and not chosen persons, right. And it's the group,

the group was His chosen people.

And it's been evidenced, you know, even from the start,

where you know, it may not necessarily say all one

million people rebelled against the Lord, but because collectively, as

a group there was a there was a feeling of rebellion.

It may not have been everybody, but you know, they

were cursed to wander the wilderness for forty years and

their whole generation were not to see the promised land.

Why not because one percent of them sinned, but because

as a group they did not believe or follow God.

And so yeah, it's pretty clear in ancient times that

they are called together to be separate. That's the reason

why God gave David the assignment to take care of

all the other groups of people who blasphemed God, rebelled

against God, did not acknowledge God because of their group.

Their group was supposed to be different. As a whole,

they were supposed to believe together. And so if their

leader sins, and by the way, that's no different than today.

How many times do we see leaders of churches make

really bad decisions and then unfortunately their sin is the

ripple effect that causes the entire church to crumble.

Yeah, government leaders the same thing, right, government leaders wicked government.

You know, you and I've been all over the world.

We've been in places where corruption from the top literally

destroys the nations, right, and everybody's living in poverty. Everybody

else is now living in corruption, everybody's shooting a deal.

It just winds up, you know, ruining an entire country.

And so leaders have a big impact. So if our

listeners can understand that the Bible is telling a Middle

Eastern story, right, not a Western story, right, then, and

if you can understand that the huge majority of the

planet thinks tribally, not individually, right, it's the whole group.

Because you know, you and I have been like with

the Pocat tribes or I'm going to be the Turkana tribe.

Here just a few weeks in Kenya, if a couple

of people make a mistake in the village, the whole

village might die because they're always right on the edge

of surviving because of famine, a lack of water, because

of other villages and raiders coming in and trying to

steal stuff. So if a couple people make a mistake,

the whole village can die, and so the consequences are

the group of people. So understand that you were not

made to only be an individual. You were made to

be a part of the family of God, part of

your family, part of your community, and so we do

have responsibilities to the community. So I was thinking about this.

This thought crossed my mind while you were talking. The

Bible doesn't say why God's anger stirred against them, right.

It says once again the end of the Lord burned

against Israel, But it didn't say why.

Right, And we're left to speculate because it does not

list it why right.

However, the events that just happened rate before this are

the rebellion of Absolom yep. And many of the people

of Israel went along with Absolom on this one. But

God had ordained David. Remember when David wouldn't even raise

his hand against Saul. He just cut off a little

piece of his garment two different times, right, And it

was because he's like, it's not my job to raise

my hand against the one that God anointed. Did and

many people joined in with Absolom. Thousands of people joined

in with Absolom, which means they also vicariously raised their

hand against David, so that could be it. The other

one was that they vanquished. They had some of their

greatest battles against the Philistines, and David finally pretty much

brings the Philistines to their knees right before this, So

then God's mad at them. It's interesting because maybe it

was a pride issue. It could have been, because it

seems to be pride is what God judges David. David

realizes the sin was I was prideful.

Right, I wanted to collect to census and announce Look.

At all my power. I've got one point two million

fighting men right right, that's where or one point three

million fighting men. I think that might be a so

so here. God is not. I don't believe judging Israel

for David's sin. God spares Israel for David's repentance. Yeah,

but I think that God used David to escalate God's judgment, which,

in a way, this is weird for people who don't think,

only think individually. In a way, there's mercy in this

because if you remember reading in the Judges, God would

let them go forty years between issues. They would have

a great rescue, an amazing encounter with God, and then

for forty years they'd walk away from God. The whole

group of people would start worshiping idols. Their pride would

rise up. We did this for ourselves. We're taking care

of ourselves, and they would eventually leave God worship idols,

follow after the other nations, and then God would have

to send in the enemies of the people of Israel

to wipe them out and then send in another judge.

But David was a man after God's heart, constantly chasing God.

So this is a short sin and a very short leash.

He has Israel on in this moment, yeah right, And

so they get into we're gonna follow Absolom for a year.

We're gonna think that we're really tough guys. And so

if God's wanting to bring Israel on, i mean, judgment

on all of Israel, he uses his king to do it.

Yeah right. So it wasn't that God forced David to sin.

God was using David to show the people what they

have done, their pride rebelling against but he's also keeping

them on a very short leash compared to the other

forty years.

Yeah, and because we're getting up there on time, let's

let's let's hit the big one. So first, Chronicles twenty

one one through six. It actually has a different account,

and even though it's the exact same scripture, it's the

same story, it has a different rewording. Here it says

Satan rose up against Israel and caused David to take

a census of the people of Israel. So David said,

the job and the leader, you know, Bubba, will take

a sense to the people. And then and so that's

really interesting because you know, the Bible is its own

best commentary, and.

So that's why I want to read both passages.

Yes, that's right, and so and so it's like, well,

wait a minute, if if Satan was the one that

caused David to do it tempted or whatever, because after all,

the Book of James also says God does not cause

you to sin. A person sins when he is tempted

and he has drawn away from with his own loss

and desires, and then you know, sin brings forth death

and everything else.

So what the heck?

Why would God be the one to cause David to sin,

even though that's the way that it seems and for Samuel,

and now you had written or you had come up

with something about different wording where it.

Yeah, well, so in some of the other word for

word translations, it says that it was the anger of

the Lord that made David mad, and he went and

takes this the census. Right, it's kind of a prideful

response to the fact that he So. It depends on

how you translate that passage, but it certainly does see

here seem here that Satan is the one who rises

up against Israel. In the passage we read, it says

that God God's anger stirred against David against Israel. Right,

So God doesn't cause the sin, and God doesn't tempt,

but God does use Satan's or allow Satan's work, which

Satan does tempt. And so in this situation, I do

believe that God took his hand off of David for

a minute and let Satan tempt him.

Yeah.

Right, And then but God also gives a way out,

as by the way Paul tells us that God always

gives us a way of our sin. Joeb goes, David,

we probably shouldn't do this, right at the time. This

is David's most trusted advisor. Right, And in both passages

it says that Joe goes, maybe, David, hey, you're doing great. Wow,

are you ever a powerful king?

Right?

He butters hi out and says, maybe we shouldn't do this,

And so God even gives it. David away out there.

But then by the end you find David. He's repenting,

and it's David's repentance that God chooses to use to

stop this this judgment. And it's amazing to me because

Aruna says, hey, I'll just give it to you, and

David says, no, There's no sacrifice that has any value

if it doesn't cost me something, right, And so there

is something to that that when we are giving a gift,

when we are making a sacrifice to God, it costs

us something. Right, We're not gonna have cheap worship.

Yeah, And that's that's the redeeming part of the scripture.

Right.

So the threshing floor is a part of the land

where they would separate the wheat from the chaff, and

and it was this really big area where they would

just you know, sort of dragoxing around and and you know.

Pitch hay and all these kinds of things.

And so U and so yeah, David says, and that's

a great passage of scripture.

I've heard quoted throughout my life.

I'm not gonna I'm not going to give an offering

that doesn't cost me anything, because it's not a sacrifice unless.

It costs you.

Right, So something's free and you're going to give it

to God. It's like, well, you know, that's that's not

really a sacrifice. It's I guess it's an offering, but

it's not a sacrifice. So so we we have to

understand there's value in and seeing the lesson there. Uh so,

you know, the more that it does cost us, the

greater the sacrifice. Which is why Jesus said, I tell

you the truth, the woman who dropped in the fraction

of the penny gave more than the man who dropped

in the big wad of money because he gave just

a small.

Portion of what he has and she gave everything that

she has.

Right.

So, so here's what I still convinced, even though I

don't understand this passage entirely, I'm convinced that God is

always good, that's right, and he always does the right thing. Yes,

and this this passage doesn't change my mind on that.

No, and and and even though that it may be

hard to understand, and it's translated, and keep in mind

it's translated from you know, what is this Hebrew right

to to English? Sometimes it could be lost in translation.

Were we all we know that. Unfortunately, there are some

translations that could have been interpreted better, you know, like

the word love and all those kinds of things. So

I do believe that God is the same yesterday, team forever.

I believe that God cannot be inconsistent with himself. We

know that God does not cause people to sin, and

so the idea that you know that indicates that God

was the one that caused the actual specific sin and

then punished David because of the sin. I believe that

the writer would have thought, hey, if God was the

one that allowed Satan to tempt David, that ultimately it

was God the one God, God is the one who

allowed the sin. So they could have been written from

that perspective of what.

As well, right right, So, because the judgment was coming, right,

and and what God did was escalate the fact that

judgment's coming now instead of down the road, because their

pride was heading in the same pattern that all their all,

the other time their pride took over.

Yeah yeah, well hey that is that is our best

attempt to have a conversation about that passage.

That was a tough one.

Yeah yeah, it was so hey, we'll see you hopefully

next time on the Bible guys.

Hm hm h