"If Your Brother Sins Against You…” | Matthew 18:15–20

You're listening to The Bible Guys, a podcast where a

couple of friends talk about the Bible in fun, in

practical ways. Well, welcome back to the newest episode of

The Bible Guys. I'm Jeff and this is Wesley Woods,

which means, for all of our long time listeners, this

is a platinum edition of The Bible Guys. That right,

I mean, any anytime you're a guest on the on

the Bible Guys, it's a platinum because the last time

I wasn't here, you were a part of the You

filled in for me, which, by the way, thank you. You

did a great job. That's why I had to hurry back,

because you did too good of a job. But I

think it came up there that you were You made

it the platinum latinum version.

You and Kyle got diamond or something like that something.

So Chris Sarba is working with a ministry we love

called Transform One down in the Dominican Republic and they

help rescue children from trafficking in uh So it's just

a really great ministry. This where he's at this week.

So you and I get to do this together and

we're talking about how Jesus teaches us how to deal

with somebody who's hurt us or offended us inside the church.

And so I think it's going to be a really

good challenge for every listener today. But before we do that,

this whole week, we're kind of talking about relationships. Right

The premise behind our podcast right now is what if

Jesus had a podcast? And then we're just taking famous

statements and famous passages that Jesus talked about, and that's

what we're doing in our podcast. So today is if

your brother sins against you, it's what it is. So

since we're talking about relationships, Wesley Desiree said, as we

continue our current series, this week's episodes focus on real

talk on relationships. For today's segment, let's share some funny

or embarrassing stories from your marriages or any other relationship

that you want to share. So Wesley, give us, give

us a great story about relationship.

So I don't know if it falls in funny or embarrassing,

but it's a good story. So I met my wife

at Universal Mall. So this is going back to the mall,

isn't it anymore? Yeah? Yeah? But I met her at

the mall and as I was walking down the hallway.

She was captivated by my presence.

I bet.

Yeah, this is a true story. I guarantee you this

is at least eight percent true. I'm telling the truth here.

She was captivated. And here's the thing. When I first

met her, she had a boyfriend. Yeah, so this there's

drama and intrigue in this story.

You got pulled. Yeah, that's good.

So yeah, I met her, and you know, I bought

her lunch and I bought her some gifts, and I

was trying to woo her my way. And I think, Jeff,

there's something about being pleasantly persistent. Yes, but don't be

a stalker stalker. No, pleasantly persistent. Okay, so do not

be a stalker advocate. Yes, we are anti stalker to

be clear. Yes.

So then how long did you pleasantly persist?

It wasn't that long. They ended up breaking up. I'm

going to say like six months they ended up breaking up.

We started dating, but I was younger. So when I

met her, I was like eighteen. She was like four

or five years older. Oh So we dated for a

while and then she's like, you're too young, I can't

do this. So that happened for some years where we'd

get back together. She's like, no, I can't do it,

And then I guess I finally just stuck. I just

wore down. Okay, good for you, but then pleasantly persistent

not stalker.

Yes, there's the science of it, but then there's also

the art of yes, it don't be a weird Oh yes,

did you feel like you got close to being a

weirdo a little bit? Or do you feel like you

always you always managed that?

Just I think I managed it well. Her parents were

on my side, which helped. Oh that helps. So her

parents were rooting for me.

Yeah, yeah, that's good. Yeah, Well, maybe you should write

a book about it. Yeah, write a book for all

the people who struggle and they keep falling over the

line into stalker mode.

Don't be a weirdos the title.

Yeah, So I was thinking about that too. And I

think I've told this story on the podcast. I know

I've told it from stage before. But my wife and

I met in high school. We were seniors and we

were both musicians, and I found out about this opportunity

to win a scholarship at college that Bonnie's mom and

Bonnie lived at, and so I had to I lived

in Michigan. The school was down in Indiana, so I

sent my music down and Bonnie wound up being my

piano player to accompany me. And so I wound up

winning full scholarship. And when it was all done, I

wrote her a note. I was sick that whole week.

I had pneumonia, but I you know that's which is

Pneumonia's rough for a trumpet player. But you know, when

you're good, you're good, you got skilled, well, you got skills,

You got skills, you know what I mean.

Pneumonia can't start.

So but I was sick the whole time, so just miserable,

And so I wrote her a note, handwritten note, and

I said, thank you, Bonnie, and whatever, maybe I'll see

in the ful because I didn't decided I was going

to go at school. I just wanted to see if

I can win that scholarship. Ye, so I left her

that note. Well, Bonnie apparently was smitten, and so she

kept that card on her nightstand, and every night all

summer long she prayed that God would send me to school.

Oh wow, And so I wound up going back. We

started dating on the first day of college, and I

never dated another girl. Again. Oh wow, and so now

here I am. We've been married almost thirty three years,

and I am still literally God's answer to my wife's prayer.

We got to get Bonnie's version.

Yeah, no, that's that's a fact. You can ask her.

She'll tell you I am God's answer to her prayers.

And so, you know, when she gets frustrated with me,

I'm like, is that how you treat God's answer to

your prayer?

You pray for this exactly?

Be careful what you pray for, ladies.

Yeah, you got it. That's pretty good.

So talking about sometimes people getting grumpy though, Yeah, that's

what we're talking about today. In the Matthew chapter eighteen,

which is an incredibly important passage, it seems like pastors

know this all the time. Elders will know this. When

there's a problem, people say, well, what's the Matthew eighteen solution?

But it's amazing to me how few church people know

Matthew eighteen right, And so this is incredibly important, I

think for every person listening, because there will be a

time when somebody offends you, and so how should a

Christian approach being offended? Excuse me, this cough just won't

go away. You got this little cough. Yeah, and it's

a tickle in the bottom of my throat. I talked

to my doctor about it, and my doctor is like,

I think you just your body has this habit now

of coughing. You got a little bit of inflammation. So whatever,

So I'm not sick. I just won't won't quit the

little cough anyways. Matthew Chapter eighteen, verse fifteen says, if

another sins against you, go privately and point out the offense.

If the other person listens and confesses it, you have

won that person back. But if you are unsuccessful, take

one or two others with you and go back again,

so that everything you say may be confirmed by two

or three witnesses. If the person still refuses to listen,

take your case to the church. Then if he or

she won't accept the church's decision, treat that person as

a pagan or a corrupt tax collector. I tell you

the truth, whatever you forbid on earth will be forbidden

in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will be

permitted in heaven. I also tell you this, If two

of you agree here on earth concerning anything you ask,

my father in Heaven will do it for you for

where two or three gathered together as my followers, I

am there among them.

So all, yeah, I like that first line. If another

believer sins against you, go privately and point out the offense.

I think that's key right there.

Yeah.

It does not say go to social media and type

in all caps at them, and that is not what

that says. It says go privately because I think the

oftentimes when we're mad at someone, we have a tendency

to react out of our emotion then acting out of

logic or acting out of what the Bible says. So

I think that's super important that we go privately to

the to the person and point out the offense. Sometimes

we can find out that maybe the person didn't even

know they offended you by what they did. So before

you you know, fly off the handle, you go on

you know, your favorite social media platform and all caps,

go to the person privately and have a dialogue with them.

Yeah, I think that that that part of it. First,

what it's all about human dignity, Yeah, everybody has, there's

we all we should have a certain amount of human

dignity and a certain amount of personal pride, not the

negative kind of plight, but the kind of privately says, Hey,

I'm an adult man, I'm making my decisions. I'm trying

to do the best I can. And then a lot

of times what we do is we take away people's

dignity by just blasting them publicly, embarrassing them or whatever.

So there's a dignity issue, and what happens there is

if we can resolve it privately and somebody realizes, wow,

I did really cross line. I'm sorry. Then what you

just did is you drew them closer to you because

they realize you could have done a lot of damage

to them and you chose not to. And we've all

been hurt by people who blew up something that they

didn't understand and it goes public in high school, in

the halls, or you know, on social media or at

a family event or something, and what you said, you

didn't mean it that way or what they perceived isn't

what really happened, and they blow it up rather than

coming and making sure they have all the facts straight. Yeah.

But here's the funny thing, Jeff, when we do something

to someone else, this is what we want.

Yeah, yeah, we want this right.

Yeah, come back to me privately. We'll talk about it,

resolve it. But when they do it to us, we're

ready to go scorched earth nuclear, you know, which is funny.

You know, it's interesting. I think the reason why we

go scorched durts so quickly is because we didn't confront

them early. Yeah, we just let offences build up, build up,

build up. So now in our minds, we've got twenty

offenses we're mad about, but we're blowing up about this one,

and it's the first time they're hearing about it.

And then when you fire at them over the twenty,

they're confused.

They have no idea what you're talking about.

So then now they're on defense now and they're coming

back at you. So it's this whole weird.

Well, I've made this mistake before, where you know, and

I've been working a lot on diplomacy lately. I've been

trying to solve this big problem overseas and a lot

of things, and I've trying to do it from a

biblical perspective. But even as I'm working on this big

project on smaller things, even in my own world, even recently,

I haven't always managed it well, particularly with the fact

that when I make a confrontation, I bring in other

things that I never never brought up before, right, And

so that's a skill set that I think you have

to just consciously constantly be working on. So I found myself,

I'm doing better if I write it out and release

it and release it that way. Well, I'll write it

out and then say, if you don't mind, I'm going

to use these notes because I don't want to say

something that's not fair. Right. But in the times I

didn't write it out are the times that maybe I've

said more than I needed to say, or I hurt

rather than helped the relationship. So that's been part of it.

You know. In Leviticus, chapter nineteen, the Bible calls for

direct confrontation. A lot of us we've been raised, you know,

maybe socially don't make a big deal about stuff or whatever.

But in Leviticus it says confront people directly so you'll

not be held guilty others in which is interesting. So

God wanted his people to have a directness about them,

to say, hey, I don't want this to go so

long that it festers and makes us bitter towards each other.

Let's just confront it right now. Let's deal with it,

and so you don't have to be a jerk about it.

But being direct about.

It is you know, I think that's the key, and

I just want to make sure people understand that as

they're listening. Yes, be direct, Yes, confront the thing directly.

But you know, you don't have to be a jerk.

You don't have to, you know, hurt their feelings. You

don't have to do any of those other things. But yes,

be direct.

You don't have to intentionally hurt their feelings. Yeah, perhaps

the confrontation itself hurts their feelings, but you're trying to

bring correction. Yes, you know, whether we're talking with our

teenagers or whether we're talking with a friend or a

sibling or a coworker, sometimes the confrontation itself has a

certain amount of pain because nobody wants to be told

that their behavior is offensive. Yeah, right, so that brings

a little bit of pain. But what you're not doing

is you're not trying to punish them or hurt them.

You're trying to repair both the relationship and correct the behavior.

That's why Jesus tells us to speak the truth in love,

Paul says in Romans thirteen, Corinthian is thirteen, I'm sorry

that we can have the tongues of angels and we

have the power to move mountains. Faith nobody can just

even imagine. And he said, but if you don't have love,

you're nothing, meaning you get a zero on your score card.

You can speak like angels and your faith can move mountains,

but without love, you get a zero on your score card.

So love is the first thing, and you have to

do that. So that would be, I think, the first idea.

And then as you look at it, there's a heart

behind this, and this is where the human dignity comes from.

It comes into play. You know. In Galatians chapter six,

it says to correct somebody humbly and gently. So you know,

I found myself on occasion wanting to come in really

heavy and mad and then realizing I can't be leading

this meeting or this discussion right now, and I have

to pull back. And I found other times when I

just went, know, I'm gonna unleash, and that always is

the worst way. Yeah, it never fixes things. But if

you can come in humbly and gently to help that

person back, is what Galatian says. Yeah, that's what you're

trying to do and so that's why you would go

just one on one first.

And then it says, if the other person listens and

confesses it, you won the person back.

Yeah, how good.

You fix the problem.

That's the whole goal.

Yeah, so you fixed it right there. But then I

like how it says, but if you are unsuccessful, So

now what do you do? So you went to the person,

you try to have a dialogue with them, it blew up.

You try to be humble, you try to have a

good heart about it. Now what do you do? Yeah,

it's kind of where it goes from there.

Well, sometimes, you know, because of our need for human

dignity and perhaps because of other wounds that people have

given us, sometimes people can become very protective, Yeah, and

either be blind to what they did or so protective

of themselves they can't admit what they did. Right. So

now it's just your word versus their word, and there's

no hope of turning that behavior around if they're rejecting

even the premise behind what you're bringing up. So then

in order to preserve dignity, but at the same time

push truth forward, then Jesus says, bring two or three witnesses. Right,

So bring two or three people either that know the

circumstance or that can also witness the conversation. Yes, right,

so there, it's kind of a it's flip sides of

the same coin. You know, you want them now, Hey,

this may turn somewhat adversarial. So you need witnesses for

the conversation itself, yes, But then if you can bring

witnesses that also were part of, or had seen or

were aware of this circumstance before, that also can kind

of put some you know, cause the person to lay

down and lay down their weapons and go okay, yeah,

I see what you mean now.

And I would also add witnesses with wisdom and a

neutral perspective. You're not bringing witnesses to take your side.

That's not why you're.

Bringing the witnesses. Bringing the witnesses to witness, but also

you're bringing them to bring a resolution to what's going on,

not to Yeah see, yeah, they are right, that's what

they'll No, that's not why you're bringing the witnesses.

So you know, Jesus is John tells us Jesus is

the Word, and the word was with God, and the

word was God. And then he became one of us.

That's what the John chapter one tells us. So it's

amazing to me when Jesus teaches us principles and we

look at those and go, oh hey, this is great.

This really, this is a good idea. Go privately, preserve

the dignity. See if you can restore the relationship. If

the behavior doesn't change and they don't accept it, bring

some witnesses back. That's great. Well he's quoting it. Well

he's suggesting biblical principle here Leviticus or no, Deuteronomy, I'm sorry.

Deuteronomy chapter nineteen, verse fifteen talks about establishing the facts

by two or three witnesses. Right, So don't just as

a governments, as a leader, as an organizational representative, don't

accept the accusation of one person.

Which is there's great wisdom in that everyone has blind spots.

You know, you may see there. There could be something

that happens in the room that we're in right now.

From the seat and angle that you are in, the

seat and angle that I am, we could see the

exact same thing, completely different and it was the same event, right, yeah.

Yeah, same event, different different experiences, yeah, the same event,

yeah yeah, So this idea of two or three witnesses,

he's not saying, don't don't receive an accusation, right, I

think you can. You can have the accusation. What he's

saying is with that accusation, that may open up an

inquiry or an investigation. But it's hard to hang a

person on one claim. Yes, and that's really what he's

trying to say. So two or three witnesses then really

gives a lot of confirmation. It gives a lot of

strength and weight to the accusation and makes it difficult

more difficult perhaps for the accused to wiggle out of

it unless they have a legitimate response. Right.

Well, in legal scenarios, like in a trial or an investigation,

they always ask and someone corroborate the story. Yeah, yeah,

you know, that's what they're always trying. This. Is there

another person that can confirm what you're saying?

Yeah?

Yeah.

In First Timothy five, Paul is teaching Timothy how the

church should function, and he says, hey, don't receive an

accusation against an elder, you know, for removal in leadership,

except if it's established in the mouths of two or

three witnesses. Yeah. So in that situation when it comes to,

you know, confronting leadership. Paul is telling Timothy, hey, whenever

an accusation comes, because people can accuse. Yeah, we live

in a cancel society today, you know. And I was

just listening to a friend of mine. He was talking

about Abdu Murray is a friend of ours here in

the area. He's a great thinker and apologists and those things.

And Abdu was talking about how cancel culture is very

much an Eastern mindset rather than a Western mindset. The

Western mindset and enlightened mindset, having gone through the Enlightenment,

usually has individual responsibility and autonomy, with the ability then

to engage in debate without accusation and without fear, that

each of us are free to say what we believe in,

what we think right, the whole free free speech kind

of concept. And then in the Western culture, the Western

culture is right and wrong. That's the way that we

view things, and so it's right or wrong based on

your perception and based on the laws of God and

the laws of man, and so then open debate is

a part of it. But in the Eastern mindset, it's

less about right and wrong and more about honor and dishonor,

and the honored dishonored thing often becomes weaponized. It's not

really about finding ways to honor. It's usually about weaponizing

dishonor to embarrassing. And that's what cancel culture is. Cancel

culture is. Now, we've kind of walked away from a

lot of this Enlightenment idea. And I don't know that

ab do you use the idea of enlightenment, but this

is where I took it. We've walked away from the

Enlightenment in the Western linear logical thinking, and we've embraced

this cancel honor, honor dishonor culture, and we've weaponized honor

or weaponized dishonor, quite honestly. And so this is what

Jesus is warning us about. Don't become cancel culture people.

Instead use evidence, use proofs, and do it privately and

then and then still keep it fairly private with two

or three witnesses. You're not bringing this into a full

blown trial. It's just two or three witnesses. And then

if it doesn't work, Jesus says, now you have to

bring it to some real authorities that can resolve it.

And in this case, he's talking about within the church,

and so then you bring it to church leadership. But

you know what he's trying to do is you're trying

to head off some kind of massive conflict by dealing

with it at a lower level first.

Yeah, so Jeff, let's go through this really quick. We're

running out of time. So let's say there's a person

listening right now and they're at odds with a family member.

Lots of us have family members who we just have

to love.

That's a nice way, but they're e grs Extra grace required.

Yes, So someone listening has that person in their life.

They're going back and forth, the person never listens to them.

How would you practically apply that something has happened in

the family dynamic? You're ticked? Do you just go blast

away at the person? What do you do? Based on

this model?

You try to have the private conversation and on occasion,

you know it's it's a fire, and you know it's

the people can be a matching gunpowder going after each other.

So sometimes it's better that you write it in a

kind way, take your time, think about it for days,

don't send it off right away. You know, have somebody

else maybe read it. That would be one of those

witnesses anyways, before you engage that way, So so do

it the gentlest way you can, but still confront the

sin itself. If if they won't hear it, then he says,

bring two or three witnesses. If they won't hear it,

then you've got to go get some real professional help

of some kind, somebody who's wise that can make a

final decision. And then if they still refuse it, Jesus says,

then you need to forbid them from having association with you.

But that's the last that's not the first step.

That's right, that's the very last step. And so a

lot of times people ask me, Jeff, I thought Jesus

told us to forgive he did. Forgiveness is me choosing

to give up my right to continue to prosecute you. Okay,

I'm going to let it go. That doesn't mean that

what you did was right or acceptable or it was okay.

And so restoration of the relationship is both of us

have to be there, and I can only come halfway

on estoration. You have to repent and come the other

way or we can't. Maybe I can't continue a relationship

with you. I can forgive you, but I don't have to,

you know, I can. I can choose to say, hey,

I'm not going to prosecute anymore, but you still have

to clean your side of the street and come to

for restoration. And if that doesn't happen, then sometimes it's

just not healthy enough for us to continue forward. So

my heart is I've released you to God, but perhaps

this relationship can't keep going forward, this friendship, this you know,

toxic experience. Yeah, yeah, no, that's great.

I think we're out of time.

Well, there you go. So then Jesus says, listen, once

that judge, that spiritual judge makes a decision, you know, pastors, elders,

whatever Paul would say, isn't there somebody wise among you

that can there's somebody Yeah, once that decision is made,

God says, once that person's made decision, whatever they bound

on earth is bound in heaven. Whatever they forbid is forbidden,

whatever they accept is accepted in heaven. So that in

God's mind, once it gets to that level and you've

taken it to the elders, or you've taken it to authority,

at that point, that is the decision period, and God's

accepted that decision. And then he says, hey, by the way,

along those same lines talking about the two or three

when you get together, when two or three are gathered

to my name, whatever you ask, God's going to do

for you as God's will. And Jesus says, because I'm

right there in the midst between with you guys. And

that's a really powerful thing. So a lot of times

we think, oh, you know, I got to go to

the courts, or I've got to go to some kind

of you know, somebody who has a certificate on the

wall that proves that they're experts at this. They God saying, listen,

when my people come together and decide to work from

biblical principles and under biblical authority, whatever is decided among

them is enough. And then even when you guys pray together,

I'm right there in the midst So there's a deeply

spiritual thing that's happening when we choose to operate as

brothers and sisters connected through God's word under spiritual authority

and trying to restore a relationship rather than burn the

relationship down.

Yeah, that's good.

It's a a lot of spiritual power there.

Good stuff.

Well, man, I'm so glad that you joined us today.

We're looking forward to coming back with you and joining

you again tomorrow on the Bible. Guys,