We Could Change Our Music. Here's Why We Don't.

speaker-1: Faith Baptist Church in Taylors presents This Week in the Word. Well, welcome back to This Week in the Word at Faith Baptist Church in Taylor, South Carolina, a podcast that really focuses on things that are currently happening here at our church and ministry. And I'm glad again to be joined by Pastor Tim Fisher. And ⁓ as we're joined by Pastor Tim Fisher, let me remind you that you can find This Week in the Word literally anywhere you get your podcast. Just look up This Week in the Word at FBC Taylors and you'll find us anywhere. And ⁓ la couple weeks ago, we were together and we had a podcast related to music. Yeah. And we had a snazzy title. We killed the church choir, which we didn't actually chill the church. No. But we're glad it got people's attention. I like So we got a new one, right? Yeah. Here it is. We could change our music. Here's why we don't. You can even say here's why we won't. Now, as we begin to introduce that topic, of course, you've been our music pastor here for how many years? Okay. And during that time, if someone were to ask

speaker-0: Fortunately we didn't. Yeah. I'm starting my twenty eighth year.

speaker-1: What kind of church are we, particularly when it comes to music? That's why they'd be asking you, the music pastor, what kind of music church are we? Your answer would be.

speaker-0: Years ago I did a personal study on who I was as a musician, where I was going to take my stand. And I determined at that point, this is probably ⁓ in the about 1990, I determined I am a cultural conservative. Okay. And therefore I identify our church as culturally conservative. Now that is different from politically conservative. Okay. Politic politics is does has nothing to do with this conversation. We are culturally conservative. And and if if you look up I I did on Chat GPT last night, just at double check the standard barrier please that Chat GPT agrees with me.

speaker-1: The standard bearing. Okay. Well I've never put a prompt that it didn't disagree, but I get the point.

speaker-0: But it says a cultural conservative is one who regards inherited cultural traditions and institutions as repositories of accumulated human wisdom and believes that social change should normally respect, preserve, and build upon those norm normatives accumulated, and build upon them rather than discard them in pursuit of abstract ideals. So in other words, if I'm going to be con cultural conservative. I may change, but it's going to be slowly. Another point this makes is that ⁓ the concern isn't necessarily whether society changes or how it changes. Cultural con conservatives tend to favor evolutionary reform over revolutionary transformation. So we're just not going to throw all old music standards out and bring all new music standards in for some. I don't know, ideal I thought that the old is bad and the new is good. And by the way, that's maybe the old is just necessarily the best. Right. But but there the again, there's a principle.

speaker-1: Right, and and and I want us to get things so you're saying we are a conservative and I would agree, we are a conservative music church. Yes. It'd be hard not to know that if you watch or visit our services. But the issue is not, as you just said, old music is good because it's old and new music is bad because it's new. That's not the issue. That's where I think a lot of people when they hear conservative music, they think, ⁓ you're the guys that sing the old hymns. And that's not what we're trying to say.

speaker-0: Think about the think about the concert or the classical music scene. Old classical music isn't bad because it's old. We still have people listening to Mozart and Haydn and Beethoven. I would like to think that the songs that we use that are older, to the most part, have have have gone through that test of time and are usable, but at the same time, we bring in new hymns all the time. I think if you go to our church, you realize that.

speaker-1: Cuts both ways. And and that's what I think if I could help us understand even what you're saying here, is that's what makes us conservative is we're willing to cut that both ways and and be consistent in that application.

speaker-0: Yes. We try. I I can't ex say that every hunt every time we get it a hundred percent right. Right. But that's our aim and that is our goal. Right. Use good, solid music that has been around for a long time. Because the hit the hymnal is really a history of revival. I mean, you we could go through the one after another hymn stories and talk about how God used those in the period of time, the hymns of Isaac Watts, Charles Wesley, the revivals that they had, George Whitfield, ⁓ the the all these revivals and how these hymns came into being. It doesn't necessarily mean they're perfect, but there is a there is an aspect of them that make them makes them very usable. Right. ⁓ at the same time, we live in the twentieth century. And so we're thankful for people who are writing hymns now in the twentieth century. And we're looking for those twenty Well, I'm old. Yeah, but we're losing we're using we're losing we're using people who are writing new hymns that we can use that are that are valuable for our church that that

speaker-1: First century even twelve.

speaker-0: Give us the doctrine that we want and and

speaker-1: are consistently using new hymns even within the choir repertoire that we've had. I know you've had questions about that over the years.

speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, I had a lady one time write me and say, W why don't we ever sing anything new in choir? and and so I I took it seriously. Mm-hmm. And I said, I I think that's an interesting question and I went back and did a survey of six months of of the prior choir pieces and specials that we used and told her that over fifty percent of those numbers were were published in the last four years. So we are using new music a lot around here. I am there is no one in our church, I I would guess there's no one in our church that knows more about what is being released by all the publishing companies than I do. And I'm not just talking about the ones that are here in Greenville. We're glad to use those, but I'm talking about the major publishers. Right.

speaker-1: I keep just sang a beautiful new arrangement on Sunday of And Can It Be. Right. That was ⁓ marvelous. The text was older. The point that we're trying to make as we introduce our conversation today is that the biblical issue when it comes to music is not old music is good because it's old or new is bad because it's new. That's not the That is correct. Even Psalm 96, if we're gonna rip a verse out of context, sing unto the Lord a new song. ⁓ must be new. No, no. The question is.

speaker-0: That is correct.

speaker-1: What is that song doing? And scripture describes worship as accomplishing a focus that we want our song as conservative music church, we want our conservative music church focused to be. And that is the glory of God. Right. That's what songs do.

speaker-0: Yeah. The and even the word new when when he when the New Testament says he's put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God. ⁓ well that excuse me, that's from Psalm. I'm trying to w every when we're in Christ we're a new creature. Old things are passed away, behold all things are passed. Both the Hebrew and the Greek word there don't mean new within reference to time. Right. So the the writers are not talking about a brand new song that must be written when no, it's talking about a fresh new song. Right. Something that is matching what God is doing.

speaker-1: A new bird.

speaker-0: Earth song. Yeah. And new it's God has done something in my life, and now I'm going to respond to that what He has done new to my life. I'm going to respond with a song by

speaker-1: I'm responding to God, which if we're going to use God's inspired hymn book, Psalm book, that is the Psalms are not merely emotional expressions, though there's emotion to them. Yes. They are theological songs.

speaker-0: Sometimes the Psalms are even complaining, but they're always complaining with a realization that God is in charge, that God is doing all things well, and that I ought to submit myself.

speaker-1: Psalm 96, 3, declare his glory among the heathen, his wonders among all the people. Psalm 96, 4. The Lord is great and greatly to be praised. He is to feared above all gods. Psalm 98.1, O sing in Lord a new song, for he has done marvelous things. Psalm 103.1, bless the Lord, O my soul, all that is in with me, bless his holy name. Psalm 103, 3 and 4, forgive, he forgives all thine iniquities, he heals all their diseases. This is all focused and the emotional response of any psalm is produced by truth about God.

speaker-0: Absolutely. Absolutely. It's not trying to gin up some artificial feeling. It's saying, look, here's what God's done for you. And we should just absolutely be thrilled at that.

speaker-1: So I guess what we're trying to say is we're really not picking songs to sing and hymns to sing in church, asking if the congregation enjoyed the music.

speaker-0: Yeah, that's that's a difficult thing to just come right out and say, but it's true because our our worship, Lord willing, our worship is not man-centered, it is theocentric, it is God-centered. And so my my purpose is not necessarily, I'm sorry, church, to please you. Right. ⁓ my my main desire is I want us together to please God.

speaker-1: Yeah, a a a worship service can produce powerful emotional experience. So it's not wrong.

speaker-0: And by the way, that's why the New Testament calls it a sacrifice of praise. Right. ⁓ I when you get right down to it, whether or not you like a song doesn't really matter if that song is a worthy avenue of praising God. Sacrifice and do it, because God is worthy of it.

speaker-1: Yeah, music can produce feelings of nostalgia. They can produce triumphance, peacefulness, energized feelings, sentimentality, emotionalism, but none of those things automatically constitute worship. ⁓ biblical worship is fundamentally a response to God. So when we're picking songs as a conservative music church, God is the audience. He is also the subject, the object and the reason and the one being praised. And that means the music should continually push attention away from people and to God.

speaker-0: And the New Testament does add the other people, the horizontal aspect. Right. Vertical aspect. But but it doesn't say for enjoyment. The Bible never puts enjoyment as being the vertical aspect of music. It says to teach and admonish one another. So

speaker-1: Songs are theology. And they really are. Here's a quote this is R.W. Dale, and he is making the point that the songs of the church, the hymns of the church, teach theology in a way that sticks with people longer even than a good sermon does. And here's what he says Let me write the hymns of the church, and I care not who writes the theology. What's his point?

speaker-0: ⁓ yes.

speaker-1: Well people, you've said this. You said this our last podcast.

speaker-0: People people leave humming the hymns, they don't leave humming the sermons. Right.

speaker-1: So songs are powerful mediums for theology to be taught. I mean it's hard to overcate that.

speaker-0: And it doesn't, and it and theology doesn't mean it has to be thick. I mean, you can sing and can it be, and you've got some heavy theology there, but you can sing Jesus Loves Me. Right. What a simple, wonderful expression. Right. ⁓ for the Bible tells me so. Why do I need another reason to know that God loves me? He he told us so in his word. So there's theology, whether it's a deep hymn or a simple children's song.

speaker-1: Right. I mean, this is this is a a pretty important foundational thing because we're about to talk about the fruit. We're talking about the roots from which any good fruit should grow. The root of our conservative music philosophy is all the glory of God. That's the root. Now, from that, we will have fruit because we're learning something in this conversation that songs teach theology. Now, within our theological framework, and this is where I'll take it, and then you can run with this, right? So I can say. God explicitly rejects worship designed around human preferences. Now that is a theological treatise that I just made. And that principle really appears repeatedly in Scripture. But I'm going to bring you to, for example, Nadab and Abiyahu, who offered strange fire in the Lord. That's Leviticus 10. But I could also bring you to Exodus 32, where there's the golden calf demonstration of how sincerity and religious enthusiasm are not enough. W why are those significant? Well, because worship is not something human beings are free to redesign according to their preferences. God actually cares very much about how he is approached.

speaker-0: I just finished in my Bible reading going through ⁓ Deuteronomy, Numbers, Chronicles. Those are sometimes some difficult passages to read through. Well when you read through, especially Chronicles where God set up the Old Testament temple or the the tabernacle, the sacrifices, the He was so specific about how He what he wanted where the priests stand, what they hold, what they do. ⁓ how they how they reacted to everything, how the sacrifices were to be done, what was to be sacrificed, in what order it was to be sacrificed. God left nothing to man's imagination. Right. And God said specifically to Israel, You shall not worship as the nations around you. You are unique. You are my chosen people. You will worship the way I asked you to worship. And when you think about it, the New Testament is nothing but a record of how Israel constantly turned away from God's instructions. And followed their own whims and follow I mean you would have mentioned Deuteronomy 32. Right. ⁓ Moses comes down correctly. Yes. Moses comes down from the mount, which the people of God had just said, Whatever God tells us to do, we're excited, we're gonna do it. He comes down after 40 days, and what does he find? Aaron had made ⁓ a golden ⁓ calf and they had

speaker-1: Or exit thirty two. Exactly Cap.

speaker-0: basically taken their clothes off and they were dancing and who was whose instructions were those? Those weren't God's instructions. That was Egypt's worship.

speaker-1: And that's what's interesting. This is not they was not secular entertainment. They were trying to worship Yahweh the wrong way. Exact so you can worship the right God the wrong way and he'd be displeased. That's Exodus 32.

speaker-0: They weren't worshipping Baal. Yes. Israel never had problems worshiping. Right. It was how they worshiped and who they worshipped. And that is why the Old Testament is is just a ⁓ record of Israel's failings in worship, God's rejections.

speaker-1: It leaks its way into the new. I mean, it helps you understand why Jesus condemned the Pharisees precisely for that problem. Mark seven, seven, how be it in vain do you worship me? They they were worshipping wrongly, which is where, okay, that's the theological framework of where I'm gonna go now. Because we should all know intuitively that there are some music genres. That may not be sinful in the proper place, but do not they should not make their way into the worship setting, even though that genre is not wrong. It's not a worship setting genre.

speaker-0: It may not be ⁓ agreed and it may not be a matter of that this song represents sin. Yeah. It's just that this style of music is inappropriate. ⁓ barbershop. Yep. Wouldn't wouldn't use barb love singing barbershop. But I wouldn't bring barbershop into a worship service because the whole purpose of for thus those of us who sing barbershop and really enjoy it, ⁓ the reason you enjoy it is because it's got such close harmonies. Right. And when you do it right, everybody just goes, ooh. That's cool. Yeah. Well, that's not what we're trying to get out of our congregation when we worship. Ooh, that's cool. That doesn't count that that doesn't fit the bill. Right. ⁓ a college pet band. Yep. You know, you like Ohio State. I'm sorry, but I do. God bless you. But we don't we don't do a halftime show with the with the band here in our church. Right. It's not that that was wicked for Ohio State or anything like that. It's just not appropriate.

speaker-1: I'm sorry. Well, let's take it out of the religious setting. Let's just take it out of the religious setting for a second. Using the college acology, let's say we go to a funeral, you and I, to Arlington National Cemetery, a very revered special place in American history. And if you've ever been there, it's very moving. And you go to the funeral, and then at some point in the funeral, the marching band from Ohio State comes out to play a little ditty, or a barbershop quartet sings a little special at the funeral at Arlington National Cemetery, you would be offended. Yes. Now that's not a religious setting in either of those situations, necessarily so, but the marriage of the two didn't work. So why are we trying to do that in the church? It doesn't make sense.

speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Yeah, when when when pop music came along, first it came along in its secular years, and then in by w by the time the Jesus movement came in in the late 60s, early seventies, all of a sudden it just started to make its way a little bit in the church. That's when I really started getting involved in the seventies in music and started to see this trend and began to warn churches this is where it's headed. These styles are coming into the church. Do you really Want them to be involved in the church. And by the way, if you go back and look at the history, ⁓ we use the term praise and worship music. Today it's just part of a Christian vocabulary. We like praise and worship music, which is considered to be the average church's fair for a Sunday worship service. I think it's important to note that the term praise and worship music came from the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements in the late 1940s. It was the Jesus people, and that was in Canada. It was the Jesus people who popularized the term in the sixties and seventies. And it has been I will say that contemporary Christian music as a movement, Christian pop, whatever you want to call it, has been promoted by, written by, and philosophicalized by the charismatic movement. ⁓ fascinating statement that ⁓ a Southern Baptist professor, so not some kind of weird. Conservative liberal like I am. But Dr. Donald Housted, who was for many years the major profession professor of music at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Kentucky, wrote, was asked to write, I love this, an introductory statement for a book on charismatic music ⁓ that was used by the charismatic movement.

speaker-1: So he wrote the intro to their hymnal.

speaker-0: To their book, yes. And he said this quote: praise and worship music itself originated with the charismatic renewal movement. To a reader who's looking at this book, he says: all of the approaches identified in these chapters are carefully devised according to charismatic theology and scripture interpretation, and are expected to lead to characteristic Pentecostal experiences. You want to know why these people wave all around and do all these charismatic expressions? Because they're singing charismatic movement music. He continues. However, this origin, associations, and expectation are not clearly stated in these pages. I believe, he says, that much of today's confusion in non-charismatic churches arises from a failure to make these distinctions. Charismatic believers have a right. To express and develop their own worship to match their theology and exegesis, and they have done this well. Non-charismatics should not thoughtlessly copy or imitate their worship formula unless they expect to enter into the same Holy of Holies in the same way. Instead, and this is the primary statement, I think, in this whole introduction, instead, they should develop. their worship rationale based on their scriptural understanding and then sing up to their own theology. That is excellent. That was written 30

speaker-1: Excellent. And that was religious enthusiasm does not automatically equal biblical worship. But man, we have blended. I I love speaking of introductions to hymnals and such. This was Isaac Watts when he put the song, ⁓ put together the intro to hymns and spiritual songs, which I understand you have.

speaker-0: I have a second edition of that. It's eighteen ⁓ eight, the edition that I have. I think it was seventeen ninety six, I think was the original.

speaker-1: And he says, while we sing the praises of our God in his church, we are employed in that part of worship which of all others is the nearest akin to heaven. That's right, wow. That's what we're trying to talk about. But what in your thinking, you're saying what that quotation is going is, but we've we've kind of pushed towards the emotionalism of it rather than the truth of it. And that's an important distinction, right? God cares about the heart, but the heart does not mean whatever makes me feel something.

speaker-0: And and I will say this, as a s person who studies these hymns, a lot of the great hymns that were written in this time and in this in the century to follow were written by theologians. Right. They were not written by popular musicians. Right. They were not written to

speaker-1: Funny, satire sometimes speaks to this better than conversation can. Yes. And about seven years ago, ish, there was a group that wrote a satirical song about praise and worship music. Uh-huh. They called the worship song song that communicates in a satirical way what that introduction was trying to get at. The focus of it. So whether you appreciate it or not, here is the worship. Song song satire of what they said it kinda looks like or sounds like First verse of the worship song song. The words are simple, so sing along long. I am terrible, but he is able. It's incredible. Hope the song's will be light sky down on the end of my roads. Here's an outer context Bible verse about

speaker-0: You have to listen to the words of

speaker-1: Yeah, ⁓ my goodness. It's repetitive. It's repetitive. It's repetitive My problems are g I mean you can't make that kind of stuff up. And it goes more, by the way. There's a longer section. But sometimes satire speaks to it because sometimes

speaker-0: ⁓ my god.

speaker-1: I feel like in having this conversations, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills because they're like, you're the only people saying this stuff. We're not the only people saying this stuff.

speaker-0: It's funny. If we were to continue this, it's about the third verse or so at the end of the third of the second saying, ⁓ we forgot to mention the name of Jesus. And then they go on. They even by the way, ⁓ my understanding is that this group w was originally living in Greenville, South Carolina. But but we couldn't do this. They can do it.

speaker-1: We would get shot at if we made that joke.

speaker-0: Absolutely. I could say it's repetitive. It's repetitive. And people would just say, ⁓ that's just Tim. They can do it and they're making a point.

speaker-1: They're making a pretty pretty pr and that I it's it the only people that I know of that make any argument for how music doesn't create some kind of effective even feeling is people coming out of our circles. ⁓ no no music is it's not that. But music isn't neutral.

speaker-0: Yes, they really are. It's interesting. The interesting thing, I think one of the things that I've spent most of my life doing is researching. I I can't say that I've done it in recent years, but when I was out preaching on it all the time, ⁓ you can go back. Aristotle wrote free over 300 years before Jesus Christ was born, that if a person habitually listens to the kind of music that rouses, and his term or translation is ignoble passions, not good. Ignoble. It his whole character will be shaped to an ignoble form. In short, if one listens to the wrong kind of music, he will become the wrong kind of person. But conversely, if he listens to the right kind of music, he will be tend tend to become the right kind of person. ⁓ John Calvin in in the the sixteenth century said, We know by experience that music has a secret and almost incredible power to move hearts. ⁓ I read a psychiatrist who wrote this in the 40s, not a Christian, not a Christian, but he just studied music. And he said this: music is the most powerful stimulus known among the perceptive senses. The medical, psychiatric, and other evidence for the non-neutrality of music is so overwhelming that it frankly amazes me that anyone should seriously say otherwise. A study that Two ladies did for the Canadian government in the 70s. Again, not a Christian. They were doing how do we how do we organize our music program in the Canadian school system? They said this the idea that music can affect your body and mind certainly isn't new. The key has always been to find just the right kind of music for just the right kind of effect. And even Jimi Hendrix, who are older folks in our congregation might recognize that name, one of the real popular early ⁓ performers of rock music said you can hypnotize people with music. And when they get at their weakest point, you can preach into their subconscious minds what you want to say. And these are all just a few, I could pull out books of quotes. But the whole thing is that no one has ever said music is neutral except Christians living in the last fifty years. Nobody's said it. Nobody's held to it.

speaker-1: Even they couldn't consistently argue for that. Here's the example I like to think of. I'm ⁓ you know, we watch a movie, let's say, and you see this girl walking through a beautiful wheat field with the sunshine behind her. That's all it is. And then all of a sudden you hear bum bum, bum bum, bum bum, and the music is growing. And what are you thinking?

speaker-0: I'm thinking a shark's gonna come.

speaker-1: ⁓ no, when she's gonna die. Right. And all you saw, the the the video was just her walking through a field. So music did communicate something. So music does communicate. And I want to bring this to our attention because the New Testament repeatedly emphasizes that music should serve the words, not compete with them. And the New Testament repeatedly emphasizes what's being said. And Paul's concern in Colossians 3 is not simply that believers make musical sounds. That his concern is that they are teaching and admonishing one another, which requires careful communication. And so, therefore, the music should function as a servant to the message. Which is why a conservative philosophy of church music can legitimately emphasize musical simplicity and clarity and congregational participation and restraint, not only because some things are inherently more holy. but because they serve a biblical purpose that we see in Colossians three. And the question becomes, does the musical medium help the congregation sing the message, or does the musical medium become the message itself?

speaker-0: Yeah, and I would say even once in a while in our church, we don't get that right. It's it's the beauty of the song that carries us away. Right. And we totally forget the message. And and we have to be careful about that. And even when we do have a good song with good message, sometimes our own loud orchestra or bad sound or something like that can can keep us from from having the balance that we wish we had. We do our best. And and I ⁓ I've used this expression before my daughter when she was young.

speaker-1: We do our best. ⁓

speaker-0: ⁓ would would oftentimes draw s something in in her little three-year-old skill to please mom and dad. Right. And so she comes and hands it to us. She's so proud of it and we look at it. Now, if we just stop right there and say, okay, I'm gonna do an artistic evaluation of this, it's not really very good. That's not how we look at it. We say, our daughter did this for us and we put it on the refrigerator. We make a big deal about it. We we praise her. You know I can't help but think that God in heaven, when He hears the best that we have to offer, the very best that we can do. Sunday morning, our choir sang a terrific number. It was a great blessing. I could, I could sense that the congregation was moved. I think that in a very real sense, that is our little scrawled out drawing, three year old drawing that we give to God and try to please him. And he says, that was good, and he puts it up on the And says, good job. But when was it the best? Was it heavenly music? ⁓ no. Heavenly music's gonna be far better.

speaker-1: But it will but we are pointing I want people to understand the root of your conservative, our conservative philosophy. Why would we say we could change our music? Here's why we don't. Because our philosophy hasn't changed. Our philosophy has always been that we can sing new songs that reflect towards God. Here's what Jonathan Edwards said in his Religious Affections, part three. That the duty of singing praises to God seems to be appointed holy. To excite and express religious affections. Isn't that true?

speaker-0: religious Yeah, not just to get me excited but to get the theology within me going towards God and realizing what he's doing.

speaker-1: That's what worship is, right? Yeah. All to the glory of God. I sing unto the Lord. The most biblical fact about worship is that God is the object. ⁓ come, let us sing unto the Lord, right? And notice the direction. Unto the Lord is key. Now, is it possible that someone puts together a song, and all of a sudden, in that song, we're thinking, ⁓ that's beautiful lyrics. But we don't choose to use it. I'm talking affiliations at this point.

speaker-0: There c there can be some situations where and those are difficult calls to make. Absolutely not. I I I I could give some illustrations here that I really can't.

speaker-1: But we're not the only ones made. Well I wanna give one that we can we can play off of because I'm gonna show a clip and and I do this intentionally because I want people to realize what we're saying is we're not the only ones saying. So I'm gonna show a clip here. There's two guys talking. Basically it's a clip of one guy responding to the other guy. So we're gonna have a guy who's responding to someone else. So we'll be we'll respond to someone who's responding to someone who's responding to someone here in a moment. The first guy talking is Todd Friel. He's with Wretched Radio and he's kind of an agitator.

speaker-0: ⁓ absolutely.

speaker-1: to be honest with you, but he he talks a lot about different religious conversations. Yeah. The the next guy you'll see that the the primary conversation, his name is Justin Peters, born with Spina bifida. Part of his conversion testimony you can find online is that he was looking to go to faith healers to try to get saved of his physical illnesses and wasn't able to do so, of course, because feel faith healers weren't right. And so now he goes and does these pretty good sessions on why that is wrong. And he is going to talk about ⁓ Bethel music and hillsong music. He also mentions elevation and why he believes associationally you should not sing Bethel and Hillsong songs. Now for our listeners, you may not be familiar with many of their songs. You may be familiar with some of their songs, like Ten Thousand Reasons maybe is one of their more popular ones.

speaker-0: Very ⁓ both of them are are pretty much from from Australia. Right. Which is where the seed is now for so much of the charismatic mu music. And ⁓ they are a very charismatic organization.

speaker-1: Right. So that's what he's responding to. And I wanna hear and then react and I wanna hear your reaction too to this response that he has to that group. So here's what he has to say. one of these songs. If Bethel Hillsong Elevation. If they're being on the up and up, they're supposed to pay a royalty to the to the company or the person, the group that wrote the song. Christian Copyright Licensing International. Please know when you sing these songs in your churches, there is money that goes into these false churches every single time you sing it. Now if I may illustrate absurdity by being absurd a little bit. Let's just say please do adjust decides to write some Christian music that would pass a doctrinal smell test. Would you sing it in your church? Knowing that some money every time you sing that song is going to support an organization that murders babies, would you sing that song in your church? I would submit to you that singing Bethel and Hill song when you're sending money to those false churches, that's far worse.

speaker-0: Agree.

speaker-1: So here's our discussion point. Yeah. We're not the only ones with association points.

speaker-0: Okay. Yeah, and I think I think when a person or a movement is is so strongly when a person writes a song and he is so strongly identified with a specific movement, I I w I'm gonna be very, very cautious, if at all supportive of using that person's music. Right. ⁓ there are other people, and by the way, if you choose to go the direction I'm gonna find out everything bad I can about all the people who write music, guess what you're gonna find? There's a lot of b all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

speaker-1: Right. Which leads us right back to theology here. Yeah, yeah.

speaker-0: Yeah, but but for someone who has such a strong as he said, if if if Planned Parenthood wrote a hymn, yeah, I I don't care if it's theologically correct or not. I ha I want nothing to do with that.

speaker-1: Yeah, his point is not just that they're taking money out of your pocket to p line their own pockets. His point is if you know anything about these groups, particularly Bethel and Hillsong, I know less about elevation, though that's more American than the two Australian groups. They are very continuationist. They're very open to miracles. They've even encouraged people to pray for miracles of a couple years ago a little baby passed or two toddler passed away and nationally, internationally, asking people to Pray that this child would be resurrected from the dead, which I think is a horrible thing to put their parents through. Yeah. All of this, and he's saying, you you can't sing their songs because of what they represent. And it's right staring you in the face. And we're not the only ones making these associational points, is my point to our listeners who may assume that we are. Right. So we just to recap, we're not the only ones saying that music does communicate just just the song.

speaker-0: Right. Right. Just the sound of the music

speaker-1: We're not the only ones communicating that association. There's a there's a line somewhere, and I'll make a third one. So I'm gonna give you another one to react to. The next guy I want to, this is a a quote from Phil Johnson off of his Facebook and Twitter page last week. Phil Johnson, for those who don't know, is the executive director of Grace to You Ministries for years. He was the one that produced all of John MacArthur's books, his study Bibles. You probably wouldn't know who John MacArthur was outside of California. If it hadn't been for someone like Phil Johnson coming in to produce all of those books. Here's what he said. And and and before I introduce it, we we might want to talk about that because when we come to picking songs, we're trying to match the text and the tune that does matter to our selection. Old or new, we want to make sure that the text and tune come together. And here's what Phil Johnson says Unpopular opinion. The British anthem Jerusalem. I don't know if I know that one to be honest with you. I should have looked up looked it up, but I do know that is the functional equivalent of America's Battle Hymn of the Republic. Both are secular war chants cast as hymns, lots of religious imagery, but no actual worship. Also, although both songs include a few biblical allusions, neither has any actual biblical message. They are usually sung with rousing fervor and a veneer of

speaker-0: Right.

speaker-1: highest conviction, but such hymns aren't fit for congregational singing in a worship service, especially on holly patriotic holiday weekends when people are already prone to forget what they came to church for.

speaker-0: Yeah, that's true. That's very true.

speaker-1: What's he trying to say here though? It's we pick the songs with intentionality.

speaker-0: We want to try to be consistent across the board. Right. And and that's difficult, but yes, it's true.

speaker-1: So when you come to a worship service at Faith and Taylor's, because we're conservative, you should be leaving that worship service thinking about.

speaker-0: God.

speaker-1: Well I this one stuck out to me because I was in d right before the pandemic in the Philippines and it was a church plant there in the Philippines and Manila, English speaking, and they had gotten someone gave them an old hymnal. Uhhuh. And their order was to just sing each song in order, like, well kid next week we'll sing, pick up where we left off. We were on page ten this week, name next eleven next. And the Sunday I was there in the Philippines, in Manila. We stood together and sang the battle hymn of the republic. And I thought, ⁓ you know, I was a guest, I'm not gonna try to correct their thinking in that moment. But man, that's not being conservative. Yeah. Even though it sounded conservative. So

speaker-0: Conservative. Yeah. ⁓ I think I I think for those who would I'm gonna make a point here that's a little funny, but it's true. For those who would say you guys never use any good music. You just never use any new music. New music is you just can't use new music. ⁓ I would remind you that for 1400 years, 1,400 years, Israel only sang from this Partar, and that was 150 songs. That was it. 1400 years. God is not necessarily so concerned that we have a variety of music as He has that He is concerned that we have good music. Right. But that's not even enough. In the book of Amos, when God condemns the priests, he says, Take away from me the sound of your vials and your singing, your instruments and your singing. He said, Take it away from me. Your hearts are far from me. We can even, and my biggest concern for Faith Baptist Church is not necessarily that we have the right kind of music, but then when we sing the right kind of music, we have the right kind of hearts that are directed to God. We may not sing the perfect song every time, but we can always have hearts that are open to praising God through that music. And if we ever have music that we cannot praise God through, we owe the church an apology.

speaker-1: The greatest problem with man-centered music is not that it's contemporary. The greatest problem with man-centered music is that it's man-centered. I mean, there's got to be a healthy balance. Now, part of the reason why we wanted to talk about this again today is because we, as we introduced at our last podcast, are seeking to continue to invest in the next generation at Faith Baptist and Taylor's.

speaker-0: That's true.

speaker-1: With this philosophy in mind, and we've done some intentional things, including the new music academy.

speaker-0: Right. And I'm I'm I'm again so thrilled that Alicia Wetterts has joined our church and our our staff in order to teach because her not only are her musical skills unquestionable, but her desire to serve the Lord and her desire to teach children are just phenomenal. And so when we say we're gonna have a piano class with children, they're not just gonna learn A, B, C, D in the notes. They're gonna be learning piano, they're gonna be learning about God. They're going to be learning about songs. They're going to be learning about music appreciation. And over a course of years, what this could do for our children is just amazing. I hope with the help of their parents, you see we're working with the parents on this, but to raise a generation of kids who frankly have a conservative attitude. Yeah. ⁓ and and again, it's not politics. No. It's a cultural conservative. That that there are moral norms. That we as a church follow, by the way, which churches have been following for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. Wait, who moved? Right, right. We're we get blamed for it. In fact, I I read a book by a a group that one of the gentlemen who who leads the ⁓ one of the groups in Australia that was mentioned. Hillsong. He was part of the Hillsong movement. And he wrote a book. I have I have it in my office right now.

speaker-1: Yeah, Hillsong, Bethel.

speaker-0: And basically, what he says is that the worship wars, we've heard that term, worship wars were started by conservatives. Like we're the ones that started the trouble. We haven't done anything. We're the same people. We don't go in the community and shoot at other people for not having the music standards that we do. But he's taking a shot at us saying, you guys are the problems. You're creating the worship wars. We're just being exactly where we've always been. Interesting statement. I again this is that chat GPT discussion of a conservative.

speaker-1: Absolute definition of rigor is chat GPT.

speaker-0: Yes, but I I like it because I've been saying this for years and it agreed with me. Wow. He says a cultural conservative can acknowledge that traditions can be unjust or dysfunctional and may need reform. Yes. The distinctive question is whether the burden of justification should fall on those who want to radically change an inherented institution rather than assuming that the existing arrangement has no value simply because it is old. The burden I think the burden of justification is on all of those who want to come and change everything. Why do we need to change everything? Scripturally. Right. Scripturally. And don't tell me because God wants a new song. That you you that's That's not what it is ever meant. Yeah. Yeah. The burden of justification has to go on these leaders of these churches who all of a sudden want to come in and say, ⁓ well, we gotta throw out all the hymns before 1970. Right. And and we can only use the why?

speaker-1: It's not what that verse means.

speaker-0: The burden is on them. We haven't changed. We're not fighting anybody else. We're just holding to the standard.

speaker-1: And what's helpful, and we have talked about this before, is just just evaluate the songs one at a time as they come to us. Right. Like we're not here sitting here saying that every old hymn will sing because it's old. Right. Nor are we saying we won't sing every new song because it's new. That's not the position we're trying to take. Never has been. Never has been. The point is, because of our conservative philosophy, we can take it one hymn at a time, really. And truly and and really focus our attention on building worship services all to the glory of God.

speaker-0: And I'll say it's a whole lot easier to do for my home or for my listening and for your home for your listening than it is for seven, eight hundred people. It's very difficult. And I think the fact that over the 27 years that I have been here and even before that, we really haven't had major fights over music. We've had some disagreements, of course. But but I think the people that come here may not necessarily agree with everything that we do, but they appreciate.

speaker-1: It's very difficult. Which again brings us to the music academy. Right. Because we really do want to train up a next generation. And actually coming up in November, we've got something that we want people to know about.

speaker-0: We have mentioned this and we'll continue to mention it November the 1st in the evening service at six o'clock. We have Jan Mulder, who is a world-renowned artist. Listen to the podcast from two weeks ago towards the end, and you'll hear all the wonderful things that we have said about him. He is a believer. the vast majority of the program will be hymns, him arrangements that he has done. I can't wait to hear it. I've listened to the recordings. But this is something that when he heard ⁓ through again, through a situation that I that I explained on the podcast, I won't go through that. When he heard that we were starting a music academy, he was so happy. He said, Tim, could we work out a time that I could come and do a benefit concert just to help you out with your music academy?

speaker-1: And that's the key. It's a benefit

speaker-0: It's a benefit concert. It's it's not a normal service. It is basically a concert, although it is a sacred concert. It's one that you will be greatly blessed. And at and in the middle of the service, I didn't tell you this, but it is in the middle of the service. Okay. We will have an offering and the whole offering will go towards the music academy. Now I got a little excited when we did the podcast before, and I said it's all going to scholarship money. Well, a lot of it is. But the music academy is all it's it's all going to the children, absolutely. The whether we're whether we're dealing with some expenses that we have or whatever, it is going to the children. And and I hope our folks can come. There is no charge for tickets. It's a first come, first serve seating. The doors will open at five fifteen for a six o'clock service. So if you plan to come, get here early, get a seat, and ⁓ Just expect a wonderful concert. But if you can, just bring some a little, just if everybody brings a little gift, what we could do for the future of the music academy.

speaker-1: It can't be understated. In fact, I don't even mind saying it this way. Listen, if you love Jesus and you love the kind of music philosophy we're trying to articulate here, and you love children, come give to the benefit concert offering.

speaker-0: Well, as a pastor you can say that better than I can.

speaker-1: I like that. Because we do want this and we're so thankful for it. And and we do want you to share this message with other people. I trust that'll be ⁓ a blessing to them. Certainly, as we've encouraged before, please do send and submit your questions. You can do so info ⁓ at fbctailors.org. That'll get to us. We'd love to answer your questions as we have opportunity to do so. Thank you again, Pastor Fisher. Thank you for joining us. And ⁓ again, thank you listeners for tuning in for this week in the word.

speaker-0: Love

speaker-1: Thank you for joining us today. For more information about Faith Baptist Church, visit us at www.fbctailors.org.