Romans 1:18-3:20 | Aaron & James Podcast

Hello, my name is James Rathman.

And I am unfortunately not Aaron.

This is the Aaron and James podcast, but we have a special guest today in lieu of Aaron, who is a father again for the third time.

Congratulations, Aaron.

That's awesome.

And Sarah.

So we are joined today by our special guest, Mark Luby.

Yeah, glad to be here.

So Mark Luby has been attending Redemption.

He is currently church planting.

Yep.

And while you're bringing your core team together, they've been attending Redemption Church.

Yeah.

Which has been a joy.

So Mark and I go way back, uh like more than 10 years back.

And uh Mark is uh a great person, one of my favorite people.

Good.

That's a throwback line.

Yeah, yeah.

And he's uh um a Romans expert.

Uh we'll see.

So I thought that this would be a great occasion for Mark to come in and share about the book of Romans with us as we continue going through Romans together as a church.

Yeah.

Well, you know, Aaron was dropping wisdom on Romans with a deep voice, so I'm just gonna do what I can.

I know.

I know.

Aaron's voice.

Aaron, if you're listening, it's it's not like this when you do it.

It's soothing and but anyway.

This episode of the podcast is brought to you by the Redemption Church member meeting, which takes place on March 9th, right after church.

So stick around Sunday, March 9th, if you're a member of Redemption Church Denver, and see some folks take their membership vows live.

Wow.

Also, we're brought to you by the Redemption Church Denver Book Club.

The Redemption Church Denver Book Club, previously known as the Men's Book Club, is now for all people.

And this is uh a time to get together after having read a book each month and discuss it with friends.

And if I understand right, the book club has deep pockets, and that's how they got this ad.

That's exactly right.

They with the money that they're just sitting on as an institution, they purchased this ad space.

Wow.

And we're beneficiaries of that.

We'll use this for we'll use it to take their money and use it to buy ourselves things.

Yeah, that's nice.

The book club meeting is Monday, March 17th, from 7 to 8.30.

The book that they'll be discussing is The Holiness of God by R.

C.

Sproul, a classic.

And uh they're meeting at uh Flight Co-Brewing, so just up the street.

All right.

So today, Mark, we are talking about Romans chapters 1, 18 to 320.

Romans 1 · chapter mention

Yeah.

This is a big section.

It's a large section.

If you were to summarize this section of Romans, how would you summarize it?

Yeah, so I was looking at this uh Bible study, and we were actually doing it uh as we're church planting, we're going with it uh through this Bible study with a few people as well, and we're really looking forward to that.

Um and I love what's on page nine, the outline that the Bible study actually gave.

Um, and one of the things that the outline of the book does in this Bible study is it focuses on the righteousness of God in each section.

And so you'll notice the right righteousness of God is and righteousness is showing up in each section.

And I think that's great because Romans 1, 16 to 17 says, um, which which is you could think of as a thesis, the kind of the core of what's going to happen in Romans, where Paul says, For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as is written, the righteous shall live by faith.

And the way that the Bible studies um notes this section, it says, God's righteousness and his wrath against sinners.

And so what's going to be on display in this section is that before we get to the good news of the gospel, that God is righteous to justify, to make right and holy, um, to make righteous as people through the work of Christ by faith, before we're gonna get to that good news, there's gonna be first the argument that God is righteous in his judgment of sinners, which is going to include Jew and Gentile.

And if you're a Jew in the first century reading this, there there may be some things where you'd say, wait a second, aren't we the Jewish people distinct?

Shouldn't, shouldn't we like is this really how this works?

And Paul's gonna get into some of that of how is God righteous in judging all people, um, including Jew and Gentile, but then later he's gonna get to how is he righteous in justifying all who have faith in Christ.

Yeah, so right away you've you see this tension that he's going through, that he's going headfirst into.

Yeah.

Of okay, if God is if we are judged righteously in sort of the same way uh that the Gentiles are, then we could be saved.

All people could be saved in the same way through Jesus Christ.

Yeah.

So this first section, starting in Romans 1, 18, let's just go ahead and jump into it, where it says, For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

So it says that the wrath of God is revealed.

That makes me think that it's something I can go out and witness that's happening right now, but I didn't, you know, wade through a flood to get here.

Yeah.

Where is it?

I didn't, yeah, exactly.

Where's this wrath of God?

Yeah, that's a great question.

In theology, there's been two terms that I think are helpful to distinguish when we talk about the wrath of God.

Excuse me.

Sometimes we talk about the act of wrath of God, uh-huh, which would be you imagine scenes like the flood and Noah, and so he's gonna go um through the waters, be saved, but God's wrath is being revealed against the sinful world, and there's judgment coming.

You think of Sodom and Gomorrah.

These are uh the destruction of those cities, these are scenes of active judgment and wrath against evil.

And so sometimes you can distinguish between this concept of the active wrath of God and passive wrath.

And paths of wrath is this it's allowing people to go into the depths of their sin.

And so um, what Romans 118 to 32 is going to actually put on display is this spiral that God is actually revealing his righteousness and his wrath is being displayed in the suppression of his truth.

And so you say, Well, people are worshiping idols.

Where is the wrath of God against these people who are idolaters?

And part of the answer to that question is they're worshiping idols.

Yeah, okay.

So that is the wrath itself.

Yeah, and so then being given over to think that this is the right thing to be doing or right living or right.

Exactly.

And so part of what you see in Romans 118 to 32, and this isn't the only way God judges, I think sometimes people get into an error when they say this is the only, you know, it's all passive.

It's all passive, yeah.

Um, but right now we see this, and in Romans 118 to 32, if you read it, there's gonna be some things that will offend a modern sensibility because it's gonna reveal ways that we've gone away from God and saw other ways we've suppressed his truth.

And the illustration that I would give for it that I think is helpful, um, I think I heard this from someone else, but it's like those things at the mall where you drop a penny in, and I don't know if they still have these, but um, it's like you drop a penny in and it spirals and goes down and then eventually drops.

Uh-huh.

Uh Romans 118 to 32 is the spiral downward.

Yeah.

And it's gonna just keep getting worse.

And why is it getting worse?

It's because actually the wrath of God is being revealed, and he's turning people over to their sinful desires and allowing them to indulge in these things.

And so part of the way the wrath of God is revealed is actually in what seems like God's absence is actually his wrath being revealed.

Oh, interesting.

So it seems like, hey, you know, look at this celebration of sin.

Why isn't there a thunderstorm at the end of it where everybody gets struck by lightning?

God's absent in it.

Yeah.

And James, I know you're trying to ask me questions.

Um, so I'm gonna ask you a question with this.

Where um, as you think about this, why would God do that?

Why wouldn't he just deal with it right away?

Like why, why let the sins of the world go unchecked like that?

Wow, great question.

Two things come to mind.

One is his nature is patient and long-suffering.

And so part of his bearing with the increase of sin on the world is his is a revelation of his own character and his patience and long-suffering towards sinners.

Uh secondly, which we'll kind of get to, I think, as we go go through chapter two and chapter three, maybe even more so in this, is uh uh the unrighteousness of man is no threat to the revealing of the righteousness of God.

And in fact, it even serves to demonstrate the righteousness of God even more.

And so that raises other questions that Paul will get into, which is like, okay, well, if sin just maximizes the demonstration of God's righteousness, and we know that God wants to demonstrate his righteousness, then Why not do it?

Then shouldn't there just be more sin and then more righteousness of God is shown?

And uh the the no, Paul will explain why no, but um I think his his patience, his long suffering, his forbearance, his uh desire to save sinners, um that uh are even yet unborn, um which of course we were at the time of writing this.

Yeah.

Um so uh I I think kind of coming back to that theme, it's like you we'll probably notice over and over again through the through the letters, uh it serves to demonstrate the righteousness of God.

That's good.

Thanks.

Man, I planned on doing all the question asking.

All right.

Let's get back to that.

So in this section, it describes that uh we well, I will say this because it it feels relevant to what we're talking about.

One of my favorite Chesterton quotes that I'll butcher now is uh it's strange that people doubt the depravity of man because it's one of the few Christian doctrines that's empirically verifiable.

Yeah.

That's good.

Yeah, I like that.

And this section, it seems to me that it's almost like he's starting, beginning the argument of his letter from a place where he's like, uh, you can just look and see this first claim that I'm making.

Like if you just look around and observe the world that you're in, the nature of the way that people act in it, then you'll you'll say, Oh yeah, this is just this is the way that Paul describes it.

And I think that there's just like a grounding in the reality of your present life.

He's like, You'd have to deny the very things that you see with your eyes and the way that people are acting in order to deny this claim.

Yeah.

Um, which I think is a helpful way of seeing it.

Yeah.

Um it says that Paul writes, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

Let me go on.

Okay.

For what can be known about God is plain to them because God has shown it to them.

So he says for his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made.

So they are without excuse.

Now, does this mean what about people who say they don't believe in God?

Yeah, that's a great question.

You know, you you did your undergrad in philosophy at CU.

Uh-huh.

And I did a minor in philosophy at CU.

And so we sat through many classes.

Yeah.

Where there's arguments for and against the existence of God, right?

Yeah.

And Romans 1 is like, hey guys, why are you doing that?

It's saying like, you do believe.

Yeah.

Or you there's there's something here that you know.

Yeah.

And what's what's fascinating about it is the language it uses, so who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

So there's both the suppression of truth and the evident clarity of God's existence for his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world and the things that have been made.

So they without excuse.

Now, what's interesting is um this that there's different thoughts that people have of well, what has sin affected in our lives?

Because some people think, well, sin affects the things I do, the things I desire.

But there's a term noetic, um, which is N-O-E-T-I-C, which relates to the mind, like where we talk about the noetic effects of a fall, which is because we believe in total depravity, that sin has affected the whole person, that it actually affects not just the things we desire, um, not just some of the things we do, not just some of our inclinations, but even the way we think and understand the world.

Yeah, the the way we would know, the things we could know.

Yeah, and so there's if we're gonna get really philosophical, it's an epistemological issue in some ways.

Which is a what does that word mean?

So epistemology is how you know things.

Okay.

It's like Oh, enough said.

Yeah.

So like, how do you know that the sun is in the sky is an epistemological question.

Uh-huh.

But the question of like, is the sun in the sky is an ontological question.

So does God exist?

Yes.

Ontologically.

Can we know God exists?

Romans 1 seems to be saying yes, but then the question comes: how would someone say, I don't believe that God exists?

And I think it's because this, that though God is clearly known in creation, we suppress the truth.

And so the problem is not merely that sin has affected some part of us, but it's even affected our willingness to admit the truth of God.

And so that it's clear we're without excuse.

He's been perceived, we can see him in creation.

The deeper problem that causes a sense of distrust and disbelief in God is not intellectual arguments, it's human sin and unrighteousness.

And here's why that's so good.

Because if that's true, then the remedy is gonna have to be God's healing us of our sin and unrighteousness, which is gonna be done at the cross.

So jumping forward, one implication this has is you may not think that you're very qualified to share the gospel with people because they're smarter, they're more brilliant, they have all these thoughts, they have, you know, whether they're atheist arguments or they're arguments for other things, whatever it might be.

Um, the truth is actually the power of God is to save spiritually blinded people from sin.

And we're just looking at the negative aspect of how sin spiritually blinds us, but also the same that's true that God is able to heal that spiritual blindness through the gospel.

Yeah.

So that there's there's this uh I I think of this in terms of like we can say you ought to know.

Yeah, you totally so you in that we often think of knowledge as morally neutral, yeah, and it just kind of happens to you.

Yep.

Um, but the this says that there are things that you ought to know, just by the nature of being a person in the world and looking around at it, uh, you ought to know that God exists.

Yeah.

And so if you don't, or you say that you don't, then there's something like a lie going on.

Yeah.

There's uh and so it's so you're for your lack of knowledge, we would actually make an ethical claim.

Yeah.

That you're doing something wrong.

You're suppressing it.

Yeah.

So that's an active suppression.

So lack of knowledge of God is an active suppression of a true knowledge of God.

Yeah.

An illustration to go along with it is playing like watching a spatch sport.

So maybe you're watching a Broncos game.

And if you're a Broncos fan and you see a catch that's contested, you might be like, oh, it's totally a catch.

You know, Broncos catch in the end zone, uh-huh.

Which maybe maybe will happen more in the future.

Uh they've good good year with anyways.

Uh Onyx.

Yeah, Onyx.

For the future.

Um, and so like you're watching a game, you got a Broncos fans, you got the Raiders fans.

We know they're so biased, right?

Yes.

And in what how you watch it, how people say, was that.

Particularly Raiders fans are criminals there.

Vegas is a second home.

It is a unique move, man.

Um, so the the thought of how biased we are in something as small as sports.

Right.

What about the claim of God on our lives?

Yeah.

Can we really be neutral on that?

So it goes on.

Yep.

And it says that uh their full Okay, uh, for although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him.

So those are two things they should have known to do.

We should honor and thank him.

But they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

Okay, so this is showing us a picture of the non-believer, you know, which we've already established as sort of a paradoxical thing to say, but the one who's suppressing the truth.

Yeah.

Their minds become futile.

So it's like they're not uh they they they don't achieve the ends that a mind is for.

Yeah.

They don't arrive at true things.

And their uh hearts are darkened, so that's like blindness.

They can't they can't arrive at real knowledge.

I see non-believers know stuff all the time.

What's going on?

What's happening when they know stuff?

That's a great question.

Um I'll give a couple thoughts.

I'm gonna throw it back to you then.

Um I think you'd have to ask what's what's the claim that's being made here?

Uh-huh.

And so part of it is I think the claim being made here is they become fools.

And what is foolish is exchanging God's glory for images.

Okay.

And the big thing that's happening is the creator is worthy of the praise, but now creation is receiving the praise.

A mere image, a mere um of mortal man, birds, animals, these creeping things.

I mean, you think about the dignity of or the glory of God, and then worshiping something that's creeping on the ground, and it's just like such a sharp contrast.

Yeah.

And so the greatest foolishness is to exchange God's glory for images of created things.

Uh-huh.

So that's that's one of the ways I would say, and so I, and then I would also say God, even in the midst of all of this darkening, does not let us go into the full depths of despair and darkness.

And so this is sometimes what's called his common grace, that he does not allow things to be as bad as they could be.

And there are graces that God bestows upon people.

He makes the sun to rise on the just and the unjust, he sends rain, he's shown faithfulness season after season.

He allows us to live even in this state of rebellion.

Uh what else would you add to that?

To me, the word that's doing so much work is futility.

Yeah.

You know, there's this sense that they nobody is able to w we're able to make a bunch of intermediate conclusions about things, but I'm not able to tie even my own life up to any real meaning.

Yeah.

Like I'm not able to describe why I care about any of the things that I care about, why I'm pursuing the knowledge that I am pursuing, what is in and we would like laugh off silly questions like what is the meaning of life?

Yeah.

Or, you know, what what holds it all together, or why is why is there something rather than nothing?

Or those are like dustbin questions.

Yeah.

Um and I I think that there's some there's something in our broad inability to answer what seem to be the most important, most fundamental questions uh about our lives that points towards just this uh futility in our thinking.

Yeah.

Where there's like this ceiling put on our thinking.

You can't you can't describe your life as meaningful um without doing some structural.

Strange gymnastics and redefining meaning outside of uh your relatedness to God, yeah, the creator of all meaning.

Yeah.

It's like you can maybe succeed in the cultural expectations.

Like maybe.

Yeah.

Like maybe.

And it's almost like we spend so much time wondering: can I succeed according to the expectations of my culture?

Can I have success?

Can I have money?

Can I have power?

Can I have influence?

Can I have satisfaction?

Uh-huh.

And then at the end of the day, the question is, what what if you get it?

Yeah, what if you get it?

And then it's a what did that what congratulations, you have it now.

Yeah.

What does that mean to have it now?

And who are you?

When you while you're having it.

Yeah.

Well, I'm the one who has it.

Because then we'd have it.

Yeah, then you have it.

Then we'd have it.

So that that anyway, that's the word that really stands out to me in this.

And it just kind of connects back to like an Ecclesiastes vanity.

Yeah, totally.

You know, way of that's good.

Way of thinking.

Um, and I think it's important for us to sort of recognize the paradoxical nature of knowledge here.

You have it and you suppress it, you become fool, but you can still access parts of knowledge, and those but then there's like this ceiling on fundamental meaning for the things that you can know.

And that's I think what you're describing too is so significant in our culture.

Because how much are people chasing after something?

And then at then I think people are also hungry for wait, but what's the meaning of all this?

What and the gospel offers that.

Yeah.

I'm jumping the gun, I'm jumping the gun.

Stay in the bad news.

Yeah.

And uh it's offered somewhere in something later on.

Yeah, we like to treat this like a mystery box show.

So don't give away, you know, the innings.

So then what you would describe, so there's this exchange that takes place, exchanging the glory of God for just things on the world for creation.

The glory of the creator is exchanged for the creation.

I guess um it doesn't feel like I've made an exchange.

There's a it I I think folks often feel like, well, there's nothing there.

Like I wouldn't even know how to glorify God or what that would mean.

It's not really a question.

Yeah.

No, I I think I think that's right.

It's it's a tension that if perhaps this is part of it, perhaps part of the blinding is that you don't see the tension.

Yeah.

And it's like, what do you mean we've changed it?

Like this is great.

Um I think of the classic C.

S.

Lewis quote, how about we're how about we're the ways in which we're far too easily pleased, we're this child making mud pies in a slum.

Uh because we don't understand what's meant by the offer of a holiday at a sea.

Yeah.

At the sea.

And so is part of it actually that of you say, people would say, I I don't think I'm missing something.

Is part of that actually the futility of our thinking?

Yeah.

That we say, no, there's nothing else out there.

This is it.

And is that part of the sorrow of it?

So you you're you're saying that this futility of my thinking is not just like a part of the in the negative things when I have an existential crisis.

Yeah.

But it's also in the foolishness of the satisfaction that I experience.

Yeah.

Uh, that I that is it well, I might say it's good enough for me.

Yeah.

And that's tragic.

Yeah.

That was a good point.

What do you think about um we we then enter this language that you've kind of hinted at earlier, which is uh the in the passive wrath of God, there's this three cycles through the remainder of remainder of chapter one, which is therefore God gave them up.

Yeah.

Then in 26, for this reason, God gave them up.

In in verse 28, God gave them up to a debased mind.

What's going on in that cycle of God giving them up?

What are they given up to?

Yeah, verse 24, it's to the lusts of their hearts, to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves.

Um It's being given into the passions and desires that we have for sin.

Uh yeah.

So in the reason it says because they gave up the they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the creator who is blessed forever, amen.

So there's something about turning our passions uh away from God that that makes us like uh um we we use our bodies wrong.

Yeah.

You're you're in and uh so then put it frame that positively, if you were then to orient your life towards the glory of God, then be like, yeah, you're doing it right.

Yeah.

You're living you're living rightly.

But if it's oriented towards and even then that your desires uh would be driving you towards greater experiences of God's glory and demonstrations of his glory.

But with this, since since we've turned our desires towards the creation, uh like turned like inverted them, turned them down, then the things of creation are like too much for us.

Yeah, they pull you down with them.

And our lusts are it like lust is like the the word to describe that being pulled down by your passion towards something that is promising more than it can deliver.

And I think that that's part of the part of what we're given up to is that the lies of the world become very believable to us.

And the horizon uh uh of our our like you were describing of like our possibilities for pleasure or or for righteousness or glory or the the good stuff, a meaningful life, is just becomes very low, like very small.

Um and it's enslaving.

Yes.

It's like everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin.

There's something enslaving about the lust of our hearts.

And this is I know you guys like to attack attack cultural lies as you go through this.

Yeah.

I was just thinking, it's like I think like every cultural lie could be included in Romans 1, 18 to 30.

For sure.

2320.

Um But even one of them is like you're most free when you pursue your desires.

Yes.

It's like ah That's almost like the definition of freedom.

Like to say like the ability to pursue your desires is is freedom.

Freedom, yeah.

And we it's we and what's slavery?

Something inhibiting you from pursuing your desires or accessing or receiving your desires.

And and the challenge with that conception is it doesn't ask what are your desires.

Right.

Or where do your desires lead you?

Yeah.

Or it I think what where this where the text is pushing us is are those the right desires?

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

Like your desires can be right or wrong.

Yeah.

And we think we just receive them because it's just like, oh, this stuff I like and I'm drawn towards.

And I would like to have it.

The algorithm chose.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Well, what am I to question?

What algorithm showed me today is Yeah, I like to drop the article from algorithm because it makes it more algorithm just like like iPhone.

So um okay, that so then there there's this slavery to our desires.

Why would that be bad?

Because there's something of there's something more plainly obvious of like desires, getting your desires is good.

Yeah.

You know, like getting your desires, that seems seems good to me.

Well, but we've learned in the previous several verses, your desires are bad.

Yeah.

And what your desire what seems good to you is actually f futile.

And so this creates this spiral where you're controlled by your less.

Yeah.

And it continues on in verse 26, says, For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions, for their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women, and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men, and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Mark, I'm gonna let you handle this one.

Great.

Yeah, this is where I said this is a passage that's gonna rub against our culture, or great against our culture.

It's gonna cause challenges because this is talking about uh women entering into relationships with women sexually and men entering into relationships with men sexually.

Um, and it's another giving up.

So God's giving them up to dishonorable passions.

The women are exchanging natural relations, which would be with a man for natural for relationships with women, these relationships that are contrary to nature.

And the men likewise are doing the same thing.

Um and so there's there's some weight to it.

And the last part about it, um, I'll just get through the exegesis, then we'll we'll talk about it.

But the last part, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving themselves the due penalty for their error.

I mean, yeah, I don't know if you have to be a you don't have to be a Greek scholar.

Yeah, so part one one there's different interpretations of what that means, but the idea of, and you can feel free to chime in.

Um, but part of it again is that notice the principle.

You're given up to the thing that is enslaving you.

Right.

And in that passion, you're receiving punishment, judgment, pain, suffering.

So it's not merely that you're given up to your desires and it's pure ecstasy.

There's actually a great sorrow as we go deeper into it.

Yeah.

And so here's what's important, and again, I don't want to jump the gun.

But if you're a first century Christian or perhaps Jew, and you're reading this, you're just like, man, they're nailing it.

They're describing the evil world around me.

Yes.

And this is intentional.

So, so we should say, man, there is evil in the world.

Like you look at our culture, and what Paul is also condemning is the the movement towards same-sex relationships, all the ways that we confuse the natural order of male and female in our world is being condemned and judged.

And part of it is actually allowing us to go into the darkness of those areas.

Right.

Paul introduced yeah, go ahead.

But what but keep in mind, and this is what we need to prepare for.

If we would get high on our horse and be like, man, look at them sinners out there.

Paul is about to backhand us in chapter two.

Yeah.

So spoiler alert.

Yeah, hold on.

So you who judge.

You who judge.

Uh, because you who judge practice the very same things.

And so I think there's a clear, clear talk about this.

This is one of the passages that you know uh people will try and explain away, I think, in our modern culture.

Because it means just say, like, oh he's not talking about homosexuality like we're talking about homosexuality.

No, and it's well it Mark, he didn't know about hom monogamous homosexual relationships like we know about now.

And that's the and that's the argument that's gonna be used.

Is he did not know, he did not understand.

Um this was talking about something else, this is talking about older men with younger men and these these types of relationships.

Um and I think the may I mean, I we won't get all the into it, but when you look at Genesis to Revelation, I think the picture of marriage is pretty clear.

Yeah.

Um, that it is male-female creation, and also that it's actually going to be a reflection of Christ's relationship with his church.

Um, and and so I think there's a clarity throughout the scripture, and so that argument I think breaks down because almost in some ways, I think when people try and go the affirming route for um same-sex relationships, one of the failures is it's almost like let's explain away these seven or eight texts without realizing what the purpose of sexuality is in the first place.

Yeah, for sure.

I I agree.

I agree.

I'll let you chime in some too.

Well, one of the things that I think is interesting here is Paul introduces the word natural.

Yeah.

And it's he's he's sort of playing with this knowledge paradox, I think, because he's he's saying something you can look up, you can just lift your eyes, and he's like, it's almost like he's saying, I'm making no spiritual appeal to you.

This is plainly wrong.

I need this is obviously not the way humans work.

It's not what those parts are for.

Yeah.

And this this is where uh this is technically lifeless.

Like these relationships, there's no it it satisfies an immediate passion, yeah, and it produces nothing.

And you can you can tell just by looking at it that this is uh uh counter to design, and that there's a there's a dishonoring here that is plainly evident.

And I think that's why he uh uses homosexuality here in the framework of his argument that he uses it as.

I don't I don't think he's saying this is the maximal possible sin.

I think he's saying this is like one of the clearest pictures I could give you that requires basically no argument.

Yeah.

Like if you just look at nature, every other thing that we're that makes more of itself, this doesn't, this doesn't do it.

Yeah, this doesn't work.

And so he introduces that that natural this this paradigm of like what is natural, what is not, and if we were to just use that as a baseline, then you would be able to if you were to look at this, you would say, Oh, these people are acting in a way that seems kind of absurd.

Yeah.

It doesn't I can't describe the rationality of it.

If I were to observe um, you know, if I like were giving lab animals different doses of things, and I were to observe their different behaviors, and I were to make those observations across two or three generations, then I would see, well, the ones that started acting like this, I made a one-generation observation.

And I would put that in my notes, and I would say, this seems counter to nature, this thing that we're putting in here.

Because it's not towards at least the end of continued existence.

So I think that there is sort of like an example of like just the inversion of the creation order.

Yeah, it's not just creature worshiping creature, yes, that line.

But then also like here's actually a way that it's just a twisting of a good thing.

And I I think that that's what that's why Paul uses it here in the argument.

I think he's he's wanting to say something like, you can look up your eyes, you can lift up your eyes into a first century Roman, they could look up, lift up their eyes and see this all around.

Yeah.

Um and there's in and so he's kind of saying, What do you see when you see this all around?

Play this out to its end.

Does this line up with even your ordinary takes on natural reasoning?

And so he's um uh showing us that there's a in something that almost you know, he doesn't make an argument for it.

He just presents it against the backdrop of what would be natural.

And I think it's a sort of opening of the eyes of the people who would be listening to this who would say, Oh man, I do see the wrath of God revealed around me.

And of course, we're s as you said, you we're supposed to be thinking that right now.

Yeah.

Um I think we'll uh but I I wanted to capture that dynamic of what I think he's doing with the word natural.

Yeah.

Um verse 28.

And we'll follow that third third uh given up.

And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.

They were filled with all manner, and then we we just get a list that probably sounds really good in Greek.

They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice.

They're full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness.

They are gossip, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.

They though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, interesting, they not only do them, but give approval to those who practice them.

Yeah, that's a death spiral.

Yeah.

And I there's just about every everything there, you just look up and it's like, oh, when I'm seeing envy, when I'm seeing murder, when I'm seeing strife, when I'm seeing uh hating parents or disobeying parents, foolishness, heartlessness, I'm seeing the wrath of God being revealed uh in the in the hearts of man.

I can see that.

Yeah.

And so it seems to me that there is actually a wrath of God present here.

Yeah.

In a way that I wouldn't maybe wouldn't have considered.

So you say, Great Paul, you're right, man.

The world's pretty messed up.

Exactly.

I've I can look up and I can see all those hippies and commies out there acting like this.

And we gotta put a stop to it here pretty soon.

Glad I'm not one of them.

Yep.

Chapter two.

Okay.

Therefore, you have no excuse, oh man.

Every one of you who judges.

Okay, about those last couple of sentences.

I want to offer a retraction.

Yeah, yeah.

That was good.

Thanks.

Uh for in passing judgment on another, you condemn yourself because you, the judge, practice the very same things.

Who's who's the judge here?

Oh, it's interlocutor.

Yeah.

So uh interlocutor is like a hypothetical like counterpart.

So Paul will do this in in the section where he's writing, and now this this hypothetical person um who could be a member of Excuse me.

You I would think maybe covenant community would be a fine way to say of it.

So you have the Christians he's writing to, right?

Uh-huh.

And they hear all the shenanigans going on in the world, and they're like, get him, Paul, get him.

Like, you're right, you're right.

And I see the evil in the world, and he he's now gonna come back on them.

And some people would say it's just the Jewish audience, um, but I think it could be at least has application beyond that to just anyone who would call themselves a Christian or view themselves morally, who he says, hey, you're about you if you would judge, you actually have no excuse because you, the judge, practice the very same things.

I mean, I I could get all upright about the sexual morality of our culture.

I cannot believe it.

But I tell you what, the last thing I want is someone to examine my whole life and my sexuality and put that on display.

Every thought I've had, everything I've done.

Like the last thing I would want is that.

Yeah, literally.

It would be horrifying to be put on the judgment.

And Paul's doing this brilliant strategy here.

One of the interesting things is um it's thought that he's likely actually quoting from a book um or referencing a book, The Wisdom of Solomon, uh-huh, which is uh uh not scripture, but a book that these Jews would likely be familiar with or people would be familiar with, particularly from a Jewish mindset.

And it has a different conclusion, essentially.

Oh wow.

And so Paul, if he's pulling from this, he's like quoting one of their sources, he's like ooing them along.

Um, and then it's this but your conclusion about the evilness of the world and and perhaps your special advantage or your special righteousness, you have no excuse.

And so the flip now that's gonna be turned on it would be particularly maybe to a Jewish or uh covenantal Christian community where he's gonna say, Look, you you're all on board with seeing God's judgment and his righteousness to judge the world.

But before you get away just judging the world, you have to understand that God is righteous to judge you.

Yeah.

And that's the flip that happens.

And I love it.

It's it's the driving thing where you're driving and you're like, what a terrible driver.

Can't believe they cut me off.

And five minutes later, you do something, you're like, I just feel like an idiot.

Why did I do that?

Yeah, exactly.

Um it's like we've all been there, we've done this the foolish things that we condemn other people for doing.

Yeah.

I like the phrase you're you're you're not stuck in traffic, you're traffic.

That's good.

Um so uh yeah, he does he makes this turn.

Uh uh and and from the position of judge, he he shows us, hey, there's actually this danger in your in your judgment here.

Because you're if you're going to judge that and pronounce condemnation on that, know that you are pronouncing condemnation upon you as well.

Because that same standard you could not live up to.

Yeah.

And if you are if your life were to be laid out, as you said, uh, it would you you're in that group, the one that you just despised.

Says we know that the righteous, we know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things.

Okay, now that's important because it's not like he's he's not saying, see, so the conclusion is nobody should judge anybody.

Yeah.

And we should all just live however.

Since if we tried to establish any sort of morale, moral framework, there should actually be no judgment.

We should all just live however we we see fit because we can't judge each other.

He is he's always thinking in terms of the standards of God, it God's righteousness, his that's the standard.

Yeah.

And he's removing these counterfeit standards by which you would deceive yourself to think that you would measure up to a standard that God would approve that was not God Himself.

Yeah.

And so he says, we know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things.

Do you suppose, you who judges those things and and and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

That there's like some benefit that you have just in the recognition of it while you still participate in it?

There's no benefit given to you by your recognition of it.

Yeah.

If you're still participating in those very same things.

So and and then he says, or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?

What what is he talking about?

How is how is that judgment of others while excusing ourselves, falsely excusing ourselves, a presumption upon the kindness and patience and forbearance of God?

I think that the idea is God is being patient.

So I love I love this verse.

God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance.

Cause as you read this, the the conclusion isn't necessarily that God's wrath leads you to repentance, though um I think it's true he's revealing his wrath.

Yeah.

But it seems that Paul's saying there's also a kindness being shown.

And we would want to just say it's just it's just the wrath, you know, is being displayed.

But it's like what's actually also being shown that he still puts up with us.

Yeah.

And the foolishness of us who might look at others and say, Man, how bad are they?

And do the same things.

And he's saying, Hey, stop presuming upon this.

Um stop presuming on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience.

And that the alternative to presuming on God's kindness is actually to repent and to turn to him.

And so it's to recognize my life is in need of God's grace and his kindness and putting up with us and showing us mercy and kindness and not actively judging us should lead us to a sense of repentance.

And so, on one hand, you can look at it and say, Do you see God's wrath on display in the world?

But on the other hand, you could also look at it and say, Do you see God's patience on display in the world?

That's right.

And it's both.

Yeah.

It's really both.

Those sins will lead to bad outcomes.

And you'll be able to look around and see all those all over the place.

And you'll see lots of people not utterly destroyed.

Yeah.

Which is good because I mean, how how deep are you in the spiral?

You can also know that God's kindness is there.

It's the same depth.

Yeah, it's the same depth.

It's it's there.

He's there ready to show mercy and kindness, no matter how deep into the spiral we are.

Yeah, and the depth of the spiral demonstrates the depth of his mercy and kindness.

Yeah.

Okay, so don't presume it's kind of next.

Just the light march through Romans.

I know, and there's no way to just like tick it off a list.

It's just like these heart level uh realizations of yeah.

So um in uh in 6 through 11, he draws this conclusion that God shows no partiality between the ones whom he's given the law to and would therefore have this reason, the the greatest reason they could appeal to to judge others, which is I can tell you that it doesn't measure up to the law.

And those who don't have the law, and he is showing us that there's no partiality with God.

Could you help us understand this section?

Because it can it's a bit of a difficult argument, I think.

Yeah.

Are you okay if I I just read it for the listener?

So verse six through eleven, he will render to each one according to his works.

To those who by patience and well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek.

But glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek, for God chose no partiality.

Now again, highlighting the righteousness of God in his judgment, God is not one to show partiality.

He's going to give to Jew and Greek, Jew first and also the Greek, he's going to give impartial judgment and fair.

Now there's two what I'd say reasonable interpretations of that I can think of of verses six to eleven.

And do you want me to just give give them both and then give the one I think?

Yeah, give us the one you think.

Okay.

Um, so the one I lean towards right now is I think that what Paul is arguing here is he's arguing about judgment according to works.

So we're saved by grace alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone, to the glory of God alone, as revealed in the Word of God, if you want to tie the five solos together.

Yeah.

For the Bible tells me so.

Um, yes, and so he's dealing with judgment according to works, is my understanding here.

And so he's talking about the outcome at the end of the day when we'll stand before God and be judged.

And um think of Matthew 25, what you did to the least of these, you did to me.

There's there's a certain evidence of the gospel on display in the life of a Christian that will be evidenced by what I would say, um, you could put in the language here, who by patience and well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality.

For them, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, I would say the truth of God's word, the truth of the gospel, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

I think what Paul is setting up here, and this is a little con I think it's a can be a little bit confusing.

I think he's trying to set up this view that God will judge impartially.

And though he's gonna later clarify that by works of the law we cannot be justified, that there is a very real sense in which our life of righteousness in Christ will be evidence of the work of God in our life and um on display in judgment.

So, in that sense, we can rightly say that in the end we will be judged according to our works.

You yeah, you be judged according to your works, which is different than saying you will be justified by works of the law.

Because our works are evidence of the justification which has been wrought in our hearts by the work of God.

Yes, absolutely.

And that's the thing where I mean Or, or evidence that we have not been justified.

Yeah, yeah.

And so it's the idea of when God saves someone, Ephesians 2.8 and 9, maybe my I think one of my favorite verses, for by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing.

It is a gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Very clear.

Like are we justified by or are we saved by our works?

No.

210 says, For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Yeah.

And so what I think is happening here is you're looking at 210 and you say, Okay, look at the good works his people have walked in.

How clear is it that these are those who have been saved by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and brought into this new life in Christ, where they now live out good works.

I think that's what's happening.

And then what's happening here then is there's no partiality in God's judgment, the same standard to Jew and to Greek.

And I think that makes sense considering the context that we've just come out of and the turn that we saw Paul make at the beginning of chapter two, which is where he points at uh at the judger.

Yeah.

And the um and then you're you're lumped together in the same group.

And then he's saying it's it's by these same standards that uh the ones who have uh whose foolish hearts are darkened and you can see this death spiral of sin being judged by the same standards as the ones that have the law.

Yeah.

And who, by the way, are still demonstrating this death spiral of sin.

Yeah.

Although they're able to look at it and discern and judge in the midst of it, in a way that others aren't.

Because they don't have the law.

Yeah.

But those two groups of people are judged the same.

Yeah.

Okay, so there's this uh as we move into the next next section in chapter two, it says, For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

And then there's kind of he's he's always because he's talking about Jews and Gentiles the whole time, and he's he's dealing with this dynamic of how can these people be saved by the same Savior, even though he's promised to one of them in a sense, and from only one of them.

Uh, and so he's all there's always like this overlap taking place where he'll deal with the Jew thing, and then he'll demonstrate like he did here, with no partiality.

And then he's like, okay, now you're gonna have to help me with the how this dynamic would play out some sort with some sort of symmetry for the Gentiles as well.

Yeah.

And it seems like that's what he's doing next, where he's uh describing, okay, well, though what about the Gentiles?

What are they even judging according to?

If there's no partiality, we're all we so we should kind of read this all as applying to all of us.

Yeah.

Even the judgment part, what could the Gentiles, what are they even judging against?

Yeah.

And what do you think what what are they judging against?

Yeah, and my my understanding of verses 14 to 15, I think, really gives clarification.

So moving on, it says, For when Gentiles who do not have the law, so they don't have the law, the written law, right, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day, when according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

I think what's happening here is there's this idea that we all have the law of God revealed and written on our hearts.

Uh, and so, like in chapter one, it was his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived.

So there's a sense of this know knowing that there is a God who deserves worship, and yet we I should honor him and give him thanks.

Yeah, and yet we don't.

Right.

And so um and I think that that's what's on display, and that the whole world has that.

So when the Jews, absolutely we know, because they have the written law.

Yeah, I can look at it and point at it.

And it seems that he's saying, also written on the law of all men, all people, is this reality.

So that when they're facing judgment and they excuse themselves or accuse themselves, it's evidence of this conscience at work and at play, and even their own conscience, and it's conflicted.

Accusing or excusing is evidence that they know that there is a higher law, they know that there's something more.

It it always feels to me like like Paul, one of the one of the like the shapes of the letter, yeah, what I like to see is like it's like Paul, the Jews want to go back to Abraham.

Yeah, we just want to go back to Abraham for the whole story, and that's sufficient, that's good enough.

And Paul's like, we're going back to Adam.

Yeah.

Like, hop in losers, we're going back to Adam.

Yeah.

And because he's binding everyone in this.

Yeah.

And it's like, look, you're a person.

Adam existed under this law, these requirements.

You're you that's known, that's a received reality being a person.

And once again, he comes back to that word natural.

By nature, it's by nature, do what the law requires.

Um there's probably a word study to be done there.

Yeah.

But they're they are uh uh I like the term, I've heard this term lately, reality respecters.

I like that term.

And there's you can there's there's something about like the hey, this is the way things are.

I didn't make the world I have to receive it such as it is.

Yeah.

And the things that are are right or right, and the things that are wrong or wrong.

It probably it might look or sound foolish, but I think it's like a uh He's saying there's truth to that, sort of simple morality.

Yeah.

That like needs no argument.

Um because it's uh it's the way things are.

Yeah.

It's conformity to the way things are.

Yeah.

Um as opposed to what?

Yeah, exactly.

Blindfolding.

That's right.

Oh.

Um there is so in the same way that there's like a like a type of judgment uh for the Jew under the law.

There's a type of judgment that's the same for the Greek who doesn't have the law.

It's the same in the the righteousness of God that God is righteous in his judgment.

Um and I think there's also a principle Because we okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because we might say, how could he judge the Gentiles that he never gave the law to?

And I I think there's also, and so he judges them by what he has revealed.

Right.

And I think there's a principle in scripture also that more revealed has more responsibility.

Yes.

I think uh Uncle Ben said it best when he said, With great power comes great responsibility.

Yeah, that's right.

Shout out to Spider-Man if he's listening.

First I thought you were talking about rice.

Uncle Ben's rice.

Um and you you see this actually, Hebrews is an interesting one.

Um Hebrews 2, 2 to 3 says, For since the message declared by angels talking about the law proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation?

It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, then it goes on.

But there he's making an argument of, hey, look, the law received there was just retribution for every sin.

And now the gospel's been revealed.

How can you refuse this?

Yeah.

Like God will justly judge.

And I think the same principle's on display.

Um, that for the Jew who's received the law, there's there's a both a privilege and a responsibility in receiving the law, because they do know more clearly about God through the law than they would know apart from the law.

So that this is right where he goes.

So he imagines you call yourself a Jew, you rely on the law, boast in God, know his will, prove what is excellent.

Uh you're uh a guide to the blind, you're a light to those who are in darkness, you instruct the flu foolish, you teach children.

Uh you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself?

While you preach against stealing, do you steal?

Why while you abhor idols, do you rob temples?

A little harder to access for me.

But you get the principle that he's laying out.

It's just like all these things the laws revealed to you that you speak against, you still do them.

Yeah.

In verse 24, for as it is written, the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.

I mean, they talk about an inversion.

From the beginning of chapter two to this near the end of chapter two, it's like he once again flips everything on its head.

Yeah.

Like if chapter one, he flips the whole world on its head because you've exchanged the glory of God for created things.

Yeah.

Here, the whole paradigm of the Jewish superiority, because they're the ones that have the covenant and have the law, it's completely flipped on its head.

He's like, No, you have greater responsibility and greater condemnation.

Yeah.

Because this wonderful thing, this gift of the law that you have, you judge others by it, but you don't judge yourself by it.

You don't consider yourself as under it, and you don't recognize that it would condemn you.

Yeah.

If you're judged according to that standard.

I know we have like a million verses, but man, I just is turn that on us for a second, James.

Turn like as Christians today, like the temptation to judge.

Like I just think there's something there.

Yeah, well, I think that there's just like a like in I think that we just don't think that I think that there's something in us that thinks we could get our lives organized in such a way in some sort of fashion that would uh mean that we're we're not those people.

Yeah, I'm not one of them.

Yeah.

That's and that's I think that's one of the lies of like I'm not like them.

Yeah.

And you're you are.

Yeah.

It'll have a different veneer.

It'll have a different, you know, it it may not show the same signals.

You may be better at hiding it.

That's right.

But when the light of the righteousness of God shines on it, it will be revealed to be no different.

Yeah.

And it will not help you in the day of judgment.

No.

And there's a wonder in this, there's a hope in this evangelistically, because it means that there's not people you can write off as unable to receive the gospel because you were able to receive it.

And if someone like you can receive it, then anyone you know can receive it.

And I I also think that there's a uh you know, it I think that Christians are often are often getting juked into like by people that hate Christianity and want to use it against us.

Yeah.

And one of the ways that that happens is okay, yeah, but who am I to judge?

I can't judge anything.

I can't I maybe it's right or wrong, who am I to know?

I'm not God, I can't know anything.

And the answer is like, well, yeah, you do know.

Yeah.

Um, because you the truth of God in Jesus Christ has been revealed to you.

Yeah.

And so you know.

But then there's also when you recognize that you're just being taken advantage of like that, you realize that this call to not judge is just being used against you to deny the morality of God.

Yeah.

And then you can forget right at that moment, when you realize that the call to not judge in those worldly terms is foolish, that the judgment that you are laying out, you're under.

Like when you make these judgments of culture or others, and you ought to rightly make those judgments.

You never make them where you aren't under them.

Yeah.

And so it's this uh i everything is bound up so the Christian can't boast.

Yeah.

Because we are we are under them too.

And then it's like, hey man, well, that's this thing you're doing is really bad.

Same.

You know, maybe not the same way, yeah, but uh I likewise am hopeless apart from the rescue of Jesus Christ.

And so you're the you you have to be bound up and recognize that the judgments that you offer are always binding you up uh in such a way where you must say, My only hope is Jesus Christ.

Yeah.

That He would atone for me, that He would come and rescue me, that He would be patient with me.

Um and if it if it doesn't have that quality, then it it's not a Christian judgment.

Yeah.

I think I think it's so important because it's so it's so easy as a Christian at times to just say, I cannot believe how wicked the world is.

Yeah.

And I mean it's it's just the reality of yes, there's a true, transformed reality of the community of God by the grace of God.

Yes.

But even that different lifestyle, you just have to look back and say, Lord, you've saved me.

Like that was that was your grace.

There, I mean the classic phrase there, go high by the grace of God.

Right.

It's like I one of my heroes of the faith who has passed away was Jerry Bridges, and he would make the claim that there's not a single sin I wouldn't commit given the right circumstances.

Yeah.

And it's like, yeah, I mean, he would say that as an older man, end of his life, one of the most mature, humble men you're gonna know, constantly focusing on teaching the gospel, preaching the gospel to yourself every day, but his just sense of dependence upon God's grace.

He knew that apart from God's grace, he would be lost.

This is I think so much of the mistake of of wrong judgment is uh thinking of uh not realizing that Christian maturity is uh greater dependence on Christ.

Yeah.

And that that's where it's actually cultivated.

Yeah.

And that in your pursuit of holiness you will you will discover levels of depravity that you don't even know now because there's no war.

Yeah.

And and maybe we couldn't even handle them if we had them yet.

Exactly.

And I I think it's like the thing where as a Christian, how do you not go crazy?

It's by constantly remembering the depths of God's grace.

His patience.

Yeah.

Well, uh everything that you're seeing, he's uh patiently bearing.

Yeah.

And not hopelessly.

Yeah.

Um, so how much more is he s uh seeing?

Probably five times as much.

So um move on.

For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law.

Now he's talking he's talking about covenant participation here.

But if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision.

So if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

It's like if one thing's true, then wouldn't the inverse be true?

If it's true that your circumcision can become uncircumcision, you know, not not valuable as evidence of your membership in the covenant community because of you because of your disobedience, then it doesn't seem like it'd be true that for those who do obey, even though they don't have uh circumcision, it would become evidence of their obedience.

I I think it's something like Jesus' parable, I always forget whether it's a father or a master, and he sends uh two people out to work for him and one of them says, I'm gonna go and doesn't go.

Yeah.

And the other one says, I'm not gonna go, but goes.

Yeah, yeah.

Those those that's a Jew-Gentile thing that he's doing, and that's like those the saying you're gonna go is like the circumcision.

Yeah.

But then if you don't go, which one of the which of these obeyed?

And the ones who said they wouldn't go, these are the Gentiles uncircumcised, but they went.

So which of which of these would you say obeyed?

It's like this in it's hard for us to hear, I think, because we don't understand just the the hugeness of the meaning of circumcision as being marked out uniquely among all the nations as the covenant people of God.

And Paul uh here saying that will not matter for your judgment.

I just almost can't it just had to have just sounded completely insane.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And and why?

It's because to be truly Jewish is not the outward.

It's the in-word.

It was a circumcision of the heart.

Yeah.

It always was.

Yeah.

Always has been.

Yeah.

It's like the meme where the astronauts shooting each other.

Like it's a circumcision of the heart in the old covenant, too.

Always has been.

Do you know the meme I'm talking about?

I don't know.

I'll show it to you.

I can imagine it though.

Yeah, it's good.

Yeah.

Always has been.

Okay, so then if it's all if it always has been, it's always been that case, and there's been this sort of like parallel of judgment between the Jew and the Gentile this whole time.

What advantage has the Jew?

Or what is the value of circumcision?

Great question.

That's another great question.

I would say much and every way.

Okay, some technical difficulties, but we're in Romans 3.

And the good news.

In the good news.

We're gonna get some uh background music.

Yeah, that's right, because band practice is starting.

So here you go.

Uh okay, so what advantage has the Jew?

What value is circumcision?

The question is, what okay, so then was there any benefit to being God's covenant people?

And I would say much in every way.

That's right.

Hopefully that joke gets on there twice.

I hope so, too.

Um it's one of those jokes, it's barely a joke.

We're just saying the text.

Yeah.

So um the question is uh the Jews that were entrusted with the oracles of God, uh they were unfaithful.

And that's why they're under the same judgment that's been described uh so far in the book.

Um the question is, does their judgment i in a sense does it mean that it and God chose them as his people to be faithful to?

Does their judgment mean that God is somehow not being faithful to them?

There's a lack of righteousness in God being demonstrated to them?

That's the I that seems like the question that Paul's asking.

Do you think that's the question Paul's asking?

Well, yeah, what if some were unfaithful?

Yeah.

So it's like they failed to be faithful.

Yes.

Does God fail to be faithful?

Because you would think that these would be the ones who would be faithful.

Right.

Um, and his answer would be by no means.

By no means.

Verse 4, let God be true, though everyone were a liar, as it is written, that you may be justified in your words and prevail when you are judged.

I'm gonna ask you a hard question.

What is what is Paul doing there?

What what what is his argument?

Well, it it seems to me that he's Well, uh the the reference here is that that God would be justified in his words.

Yeah.

And that he would prevail when he is judged.

Or per I think it's Psalm 51.

It's uh Yeah, I don't think I know.

I think we'll let's just we'll think out loud for a moment.

Psalm 51 is interesting because it's David.

Right.

Um and I think he's talking about the judgment upon himself.

Um, because this is after David has done his It's the it's he's saying against you, you only have I sinned.

Yeah.

And done what is evil in your sight.

That's why this is meaningful.

He's repent of repented of.

Now he's saying that so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment.

Why is God justified in his uh it's coming to me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Since that God is why is God justified in his judgment of David?

It's because David knows that he's the one who sinned against God.

Yeah.

And so for God to not judge David would be unjust.

And this is after David's committed adultery and murder.

That's right.

Sleeping with Bathsheba, getting her pregnant, killing Uriah the Hittite.

Yeah.

And he's like, you know who's just in his judgment?

God.

God.

Yes.

And that's actually pretty powerful.

Even I'm sure Paul thought about this, and I know the Holy Spirit thought about this in writing that, that who would be thought of as a righteous person?

Like David, the king, the great king, who we wait for his eternal throne.

His eternal throne.

And yet David is gonna say, God, you're justified in your judgment.

Yes.

That's powerful.

So actually, the his judgment against David shows the righteousness of God.

Yeah, it shows his righteousness.

And so then Paul asks this question, which is okay, so then if our unrighteousness just further demonstrates the righteousness of God, then shouldn't we just be stacking up more unrighteousness?

Yeah.

Actually, and the first one actually goes is what shall our it let me see.

If our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say that God is unrighteous to afflict wrath upon us?

And so that's here.

Um that's the first one, and you he's you're gonna we're gonna get to one like that.

Yeah.

Um, but it's like if our unrighteousness, if our sin, if our evil shows how righteous God is, then we're really doing him a favor, right?

Yeah, why would he punish us for this?

And Paul says, I speak in a human way.

By no means.

For then how could God judge the world?

He's like, how how would you make that argument that if I'm doing evil and God judges me, well, I'm really showing that God's righteous, so you know, I've really given God a gift that he should repay me.

Um, or like he really owes me one.

It's like, no, no, that's that's he he kind of just doesn't put up with it.

He's like, you know, how would God judge the world if that was the case?

Yeah, that's that's it's you're inhabiting a position that a human can't really inhabit, even when you're thinking that.

Like you're thinking that like there's because it it's imagining some standard that isn't God himself, which is ultimately what the standard is.

Yeah.

So that I think that's a part of what he's saying is just like absurd.

Yeah, and then go to the next one, because you're you were I was skipping ahead.

Yeah, so then but if through my lie God's truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?

Why not do evil that good may come?

As some people slanderously charge the Christians with saying that they were or or Paul with saying, like, hey, have you heard his gospel?

Yeah, he wants there to be more wickedness.

Yeah.

That way the grace of God can be demonstrated more.

That seems crazy.

Yeah.

And he's like, that's not what I'm preaching.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Um and he even says their condemnation is just.

That's their right to think that's a crazy thing to think.

Yeah.

Because it's not what I'm preaching.

Uh now he the these are kind of questions that he he doesn't totally address right now, but he almost just raises them just to demonstrate these are this is an absurd line of thinking.

Yeah, I think I think these are just these are the hypotheticals where again, if he's trying to vindicate the righteousness of God's judgment, he's doing a pretty good job.

Because here's some hype here's some things that people would say.

You know, okay, the question at first is asked, what's the advantage?

They have the law of God, they have the oracles, they have his word.

But what if some were unfaithful?

Is now God this unfaithful, unjust judge?

No.

Like he is true in his judgment, and you see that he he's justified in his words.

Um, everyone else can be a liar, but God is true.

He's not unrighteous to judge.

Um, and that that's what's being argued here, and that there's no occasion in which we like you're saying, you twist it around and God's no longer righteous.

He's arguing God is righteous and his judgment.

Um and now what's gonna happen is in 9 to 20, he's gonna essentially tie up his argument.

Um, in verse 20, he says, For by works of the law, no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

I'm skipping ahead a little bit.

But um basically he's gonna get to this point where he's gonna say, Hey, look, by works of the law, no one's justified.

God is right in his judgment, and we are not righteous before him.

Some powerful music supporting what I'm saying.

Yeah, it is.

That was that was important.

Supporting what Paul is saying.

Yeah, that's right.

Supporting what the Holy Spirit is saying.

And so there's just And we're at the end.

Yeah, so there, so uh by works of the law, no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

So everyone's bound up.

Yeah, yeah.

And God is righteous to judge everyone.

Yeah.

And nine uh ten nine nine to three nine to twenty eighteen?

Yeah, three nine to eighteen.

Um would you like me to just uh put that out there real quick?

Yeah.

It's the indictment, it's his judgment.

What then shall we what then are we Jews any better off?

No, not at all.

So he's saying, you're not better off as Jews.

Uh for we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin.

So we're all under sinned, as it is written.

And then he does this incredible thing where he's just tying together text after text from the Old Testament to reveal the sinfulness of humanity.

He says, None is righteous, know not one.

No one understands, no one seeks for God.

All have turned aside, together they have become worthless, no one does good, not even one.

Their throat is an open grave, they use their tongues to deceive, the venom of asps is under their lips, their mouth is full of curses and bitterness, their feet are swift to shed blood, and their paths are ruined and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.

There is no fear of God before their eyes.

It's like, oh, that's a harsh judgment.

Yeah.

And so what what does the law tell us, verses 19 to 20?

Now we know that whatever the law says, it speaks to those who are under law.

So that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God, for by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

I've heard the illustration, I think it's helpful of the law is like an MRI.

And so there's you're Presbyterian in Westminster, so there's three uses of the law, but one of them is that the law reveals sin.

Um and for the law to reveal sin is like an MRI machine.

It can show you the issue, but it cannot heal you.

And I think what Paul just did in 320 all the way through this is he just put us all under the MRI.

He put us all under the examination and said, Look, if you're gonna rely on yourself in the works of the law, you cannot be justified before God.

By works of the law, no human being will be justified in his sight, and God will be absolutely just and righteous to judge you.

And that's what he's just argued.

Yeah.

And so, this is why we said it's dense.

Uh, that's the setup for the good news that's gonna come after.

Mark, thanks so much.

Yeah.

This was super fun.

Yeah, I was super.

Really appreciate your uh wisdom and insight.

So thanks everyone for listening, and we will talk to you next week.

Goodbye.