Baptizing Babies

Hi, my name is James Rathman.

And I'm Aaron Neff.

And this is the Aaron and James Podcast.

Today we are discussing baptism.

Especially making a case for infant baptism.

Aaron's gonna make the whole case.

The little guys.

That's right, baptizing those little tiny babies.

They have no idea what's coming.

Sneak attacks.

That's right.

This episode of the podcast is brought to you by the Habakkuk Study, which is an RCD women study.

So the women of RCD are gathering together on Wednesday, June 11th.

That's just a couple of days from now while we're recording it.

They'll meet in the evening on Wednesday, June 11th from 6.30 to 9 p.m.

And that will take place at uh Heidi Kushneroff's home.

The address is in the app on the calendar or at redemptiondenver.com on the calendar.

Just tap Habaccook Study and you'll get the information there.

I was reading through Liz's notes for that study, and I texted her back and I was like, did you write this study?

And she was like, Yes, I did.

And I was like, wow, this is really good.

It was better than like the Romans study that we bought, which got basically exclusively negative reviews.

Like everybody that did it was like, yeah, it was good to meet together and go through the Bible.

This study is bad.

Yeah.

So we're probably going to switch that also.

Maybe we should uh get this published.

Yeah, I think we should.

Redemption Denver Publishing Company.

Yeah.

RCD Publishing.edu.

This is uh so definitely show up for that.

Uh I think it's gonna be really good.

I mean, to get into the word in the the way that uh Liz is has prepared to um invite the women of our church into it, man, it's gonna be really good.

So recommend that.

Mark your calendars.

Let's talk about baptism.

Okay.

So, Aaron, I got a question.

Um I might have an answer.

Why uh does infant baptism take so long to describe?

You ask a Credo Baptist, that's uh what uh infant baptists call uh paedo baptism means infant baptism.

And uh Pedo meaning in Tanus.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

And Credo baptism means like uh by confession.

Okay.

Uh so it's like when after you uh confess Christ as Lord, then you're baptized.

Yeah.

Uh Paedo Baptists call Baptists Credo Baptists.

It's kind of like our cisgender.

You know, it's like a way of marginalizing normal people.

And we uh so if you ask a Baptist like why do why do you baptize people after confession of faith?

They're like, well, look, here, this is a and they confessed and then they were all baptized.

Yeah.

It's like okay, yeah.

Case closed, done.

You ask a paedo-baptist, why should you baptize infants?

And it's like, would you please sit down for an hour?

Right.

And I will tell you everything.

Why why does it take so long to describe?

Yeah.

Oh, oh, that's the question.

That's the question, yeah.

Um Well, I mean, I think honestly, the answer to this is similar to most other things in in the Bible.

Um, even understanding the death and resurrection of Jesus and what that means, um, how he's actually fulfilling our works, there's there's not necessarily an easy place in the Bible to point right to that.

Yep.

Um you're you have to understand the whole story of the Bible to really understand what Jesus is accomplishing.

And so first reading through the Bible, you you're probably not going to get the covenant of works and the covenant of grace and some of these other Christian doctrine doctrines that we have.

Um, but the more you read, the more you start to understand, more you start to see different themes.

And I I think that's that's kind of the same way with baptism.

Um, especially then when you grow up in church culture and you only see one way of doing it.

Yeah.

Um, you just assume that that's the right way of doing things or the only way of doing things, and then we start to read our assumptions into the text.

And so then those passages on baptism that um you come across, you instantly think one line of thinking, and we were bringing our own story to it, and that's just kind of what we we put into the text.

Yeah.

Um, and uh I mean that's what for me, that's what I feel like I've done um for a long time.

Yeah, so you you didn't grow up uh you weren't baptized as an infant, you didn't grow up paedo-baptist, not at all.

No, I I grew up um charismatic, maybe on the uh the border of being Pentecostal, so uh Holy Spirit filled, baptized, I don't know, whatever country song lyric you want to throw in there.

Yeah.

Um but yeah, so I I grew up um I was uh actually baptized probably around uh around the time when I was twelve.

Um same in the in the Juniata River in Pennsylvania.

Wow, sounds beautiful.

Yeah, I mean mostly was, but I had to I think I had to throw out all my clothes after that because they just smelled like river water.

Oh yeah.

Um but you know, so that's a country song lyric.

River water?

Yeah, yeah.

Um I was actually baptized in way down yonder on the Chattahoochie.

I don't know if you're familiar with that.

I am familiar with that, yeah.

Yeah.

That river, I'll tell you what about that thing.

I think it's hotter than uh that's right, yeah.

You know, and that's that's great.

It's perfect for baptize perfect baptizing.

Perfect baptizing.

Yep.

Um but yeah, so I I didn't grow up a lot uh with infant baptism being the norm for me.

Uh and in fact, when we uh moved back to Denver three, four years ago, um we were looking we were looking around trying to find a church that uh that we wanted to be a part of and stumbled upon Redemption Denver and had been coming I think about a month uh at that time.

Yeah.

And we're starting to say, okay, this is this is probably our place.

Uh we like it here.

We like the people we've met.

The preaching's okay.

Yeah.

Passable.

Passable.

He at least opens the Bible.

Yeah.

Um knows how to read.

Yep.

Yeah, that that type of stuff.

So Sarah and I both uh were on the same page really about this.

And this is like first time in a long time we've been really been on the same page about where to go to church.

Where to go to church, yeah.

And then one Sunday you announced from the stage something about the PCA process.

Yeah.

And I was just like, oh great.

Yeah, we are gonna have to find another church.

Yeah.

Um, because baptizing infants is unbiblical.

Right.

So, I mean, that was you know my initial reaction to it, and um, you know, we we left church that Sunday and Sarah and I were talking about it, and like just didn't know what to do, to be honest.

Yeah, um, should we leave?

You know, we we really like this place, but for me, it staying was was gonna bring up a bunch of contradictions of like, well, if we go to this church, I want to participate in the life of the church and not just have all these things I'm saying, I'm not doing now.

Sure.

And not all these things, but maybe there's all these things that stem from from this one issue.

Um, and so you know, I think that's at about that time I contacted you, we got coffee, we talked about this a little bit, uh, and you recommended a book on covenant theology.

Yep.

Um, just based on our conversation.

And yeah, I just went I went kind of down a rabbit hole of really trying to understand this because I wanted to give my kids a reason for whether maybe why they weren't participating the way that they saw everybody else participating, or if we did decide to baptize them, I wanted them to really understand it and not be like so many of my friends who I saw get baptized really young and then didn't know what that meant when they were older.

Um, so I spent a ton of time just trying to read and and wrap my mind around it.

Um but honestly, I I think one of it it like it's just hard because there's no explicit verse that says baptize a baby.

Uh-huh.

Um, and but there are lots of other verses that help with that.

Um, that I just I wasn't drawing the connection to.

I did I didn't understand how things were related in scripture.

Yeah, yeah.

So when did how did how did you start to see that connection?

Like what started to break?

Well, part of it I think was understanding the covenants and understanding um like a covenant is the way that God has chosen to relate to his people.

Uh-huh.

Uh, and then there's always certain stipulations with it.

Um, and then but then you you see, say, the covenant sign of circumcision is given to children.

Um, so just trying to wrap my mind around covenant theology was probably the most helpful thing for me.

Because I've I'd heard of um you know systematic theology.

I did a um uh a class at one of the churches we were a part of in Texas that went through Wayne Gerdum Systematic, and I've done you know some biblical theology studies.

Um, but covenant theology was was completely new to me.

Yeah.

Um, so I think what was most helpful was um looking at that first and and being like, what is this?

Um and but once I understood that, then all these other connections um started just to kind of happen for me.

Yep.

My favorite definition of covenant theology, just in case it's like, okay, that's a great word, and folks are listening and they're like, What does it mean?

Yeah, but my favorite definition is uh covenant theology means God makes and keeps his promises.

Yeah.

I like that.

That's great.

Yeah.

That's a good that's a good definition.

Yep.

And then you start to see like, okay, so the whole shape of scripture is uh or like what provides structure to scripture is God's faithfulness to promises that he made.

It's not a generic faithfulness, it's a particular faithfulness to the things that he said to us, to his people.

And those promises are attended by signs to particular groups of people.

Right.

Those signs we call sacraments.

Sacraments, baptism and the Lord's Supper.

Yep.

Yeah.

Are the new covenant sacraments.

Yeah.

Um, so yeah, that I mean that that was about it.

And I think in in this process, you know, we did the Westminster series last summer.

Yep.

Um, and that was really helpful because it reinforced a lot of the covenant theology that I had kind of done my own study on.

Um, and just started to get, yeah, continue to get deeper and deeper into this.

And I think in um this process, I felt like you know, Josiah rediscovering the law, or um, you know, when Nehemiah is is rereading it to the Israelites when they're building the wall again, they're just like broken because it's this has been forgotten.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's been a really cool thing for me um just to be like, where you know, where has this been all my life?

Yeah.

Um, but it's just opened up, I guess, the a new way of reading the scripture where it seems it ties everything together in a way that's a story, but it's also like you can just see the connections between um both the old and the new testament and the whole and and how the themes run the whole way through.

Yeah, for sure.

Uh I felt so similarly as kind of like I feel like I walked a similar path to what you just described, and it's been like a uh this this the stories of scripture went from uh cool things that God did in the past to my story, yeah.

And these are my people, and he's my God, and I'm a part of his people.

Yeah.

And that that so like all of these stories of God's faithfulness to his people, they're they're my story to remember.

Because he's brought me into that story in Christ.

Like he's those are those are my promises, they're my story.

This is his faithfulness to me.

Um and that that was really transformative for me uh in in terms of how how you read the scriptures.

Yeah, it's it's really helpful and and even I mean personally, just understanding okay, it's it is justification by faith.

Um and that's not something that we do.

But also after that, when you have faith, it's not being kept by works then either.

It's the covenant promise.

Yes.

Where God is faithful to fulfill the promise.

Yes.

Um, regardless of our lives and how that how it looks.

Yeah.

Um, which is it's just so helpful for me and um give me a sense of security, uh, understanding assurance of salvation and things of that nature.

Like all these things all tie together for me.

Yeah.

I think I even spent a couple months.

Well, I'm still actually looking at Revelation now because just this view of infant baptism has is changing even the way that I look at uh the book of Revelation.

Yeah.

Nice.

All right, let's talk only about that actually.

Really cool.

Okay, so uh you've done tons of work on this, and I would love to benefit from that.

Okay.

So you laid out a great sort of like breakdown of the of how to how to catch what baptism means and uh how scripture lays out what what what the meaning of baptism is, images of baptism throughout scripture, instances of baptism throughout scripture, and how those are taken up by the New Testament church in the New Covenant, okay and instantiated by Christ.

So you lay that out in a creation fall redemption glory framework, and I think it'd be great to just kind of walk through.

Cool.

And you will uh overwhelm us, and then at the end we'll say, Oh, I'm a pay-o Baptist now.

Sign me up.

All right.

Okay, yeah creation.

Creation.

Well, so one and one of the reasons I wanted to do this was um yeah, I mean, when you start to see to read study this specifically, and you start to see baptism in more places than just John the Baptist.

Um, because that was my initial reaction to all this was John the Baptist started baptism, and then from there on after it's all just repent, believe, be baptized.

Yeah.

Um what's interesting as I was looking at this was um based on how the Pharisees questioned John, they were actually expecting the Messiah or the prophet or the like the next Elijah to come baptizing people.

Um so they asked him who he was, they asked him if he was one of those people, and he said no, and they responded with, Well, then why are you baptizing people?

Yeah, yeah.

Um, which I'd like you're being misleading, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, you shouldn't be doing this if you're not one of these people.

Um and I'd I'd never seen that transaction that way before.

Uh-huh.

Um, just from like the Pharisees' understanding that this is what is supposed to happen.

Yep.

Um, and the reason being is like it's it's the whole pattern of scripture.

Yeah.

But also there are specific prophecies.

Yeah.

About that specifically.

Um, you know, in in Isaiah it says um about the king of the Messiah that's coming.

It's like, so shall he sprinkle many nations, and the kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for that which has not been told them they see, and that which they have not heard, they understand.

Um and then there's another one in Ezekiel where it says, I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness, and from all your idols I'll cleanse you.

Which those are are prophecies of um of this of the Messiah to come, and his work and what he's gonna do.

And and so that's one of those one of those areas where like, okay, baptism seems like it means more than just what John was doing, or just repent and believe.

Um and then the other place, in the at least in the New Testament, is in the book of Hebrews, where it refers to um the washings and and uh for purification and cleanness in the Levitical system as baptisms.

Right.

Like baptism or baptizo is the word that that's used uh in Hebrews there.

And so those are kind of my first clues of hey, this means more than than really what I've just assumed that it has meant all along.

Yeah, yeah.

So like it maybe a way to say it is like the the it seemed like a New Testament innovation.

Yeah.

Baptism did.

Yeah.

And uh what you discovered was this wasn't this wasn't an innovation, this was they were picking up on something that was already there.

That's right.

And so what was it that they were picking up?

Yeah, it's like drove you back, yeah.

Um and I saw, yeah, I thought it'd be cool to do that.

The just because we're in the marriage series, the creation fall, redemption, glorification, map that on what you're doing.

Yeah, it's been a great way to see marriage, so I I wanted to do that here as well.

Um, so let's start with creation.

So, one of the things um I think I want people to see is that uh as we talk through this, we're gonna you're gonna notice themes of a new creation being associated with baptism.

Um, from the beginning of creation, which is in itself a new creation, yeah.

Um, to revelation, where um the final new you know, new heavens and the new earth and the new Jerusalem comes down.

Um the analogy for redemption is creation.

Yeah.

That's uh the only thing that they're analogous to.

Like the resurrection of Christ is only analogous to the creation itself.

Yeah.

That's the that's why John starts with things like in the beginning was the word.

Right.

And then he's like, I'm telling you a beginning story.

Mark says the beginning, the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

There's the the analogy for redemption is creation.

Yeah.

Well that that's actually plays right into what we're talking about.

If John has to go back to the beginning for Jesus, then we gotta go back to the beginning for baptism.

Doing it the same way, yeah.

Um so yeah, yeah, in the beginning, what happens, God, there's there's waters.

Yeah.

Um a lot of times waters are dark or chaotic, and they, you know, it's um there's not order, it's kind of the symbolism that they describe, but really um one of the things that I saw here is God separates the waters.

There's waters above and there's waters below.

Right.

And he places the firmament kind of in between as a boundary between heaven and earth.

Yeah, second day.

Second day, yeah.

And so even right there at the beginning, um we're we're kind of seeing that there's a separation between God and and his creation.

Uh-huh.

Um, but then there's more to this creation story as well.

So um he separates the waters, but then out of the waters, what actually happens is God brings land.

Yeah.

And in the Psalms, the way that it speaks about the creation event is basically the holy mountain of God rising out of the waters.

Right.

Um, and James Jordan likes to talk about um the creation event as like God building his house or temple building, and yes, how there's different stories and levels to it, and how the patterns on earth reflect back to the pattern of heaven.

Yes.

Um, and so we'll see that here, we'll see that in in the tabernacle and the temple.

Um, but basically, God's building his house.

So there's heavens, there's earth, there's the mountain, so the mountain rises out of the waters, is like the the holy of holies, or the holies, the holy place, and then the garden of Eden he puts in the land is like the holy of holies, yeah.

Um, where God is is going to dwell.

And that's initially where Adam and Eve get put.

Um, is they're right in the Holy of Holies, direct access to God Himself.

They walk with Him in the cool of the day.

Yeah.

Um God's why they call it the cool of the Cool of the Day.

Because when he shows up, I was like, that was pretty cool.

I love it.

That guy's awesome.

I love it when he's here.

Yeah.

I know him.

But yeah, so, anyways, there's it's there's this idea of the new creation.

God is creating a home for himself in and amongst his people, even though there's a separation between heaven and earth.

He's still trying to come down and and be with us.

So the so the Eden is like the temple, is like the church, is like the new Jerusalem coming down out of the heavens.

Yeah.

God dwells with his people.

Yeah.

So that's creation.

Um, but obviously we know the story, things don't stay that way.

Right.

Adam and Eve sin.

Sin leads to a bunch of crazy things to the point where God looks at man's heart and sees that it's only evil all the time.

Yeah.

Uh and so then comes the flood.

Um, and the flood is uh one of those things where, again, if you just kind of read through the Bible, you may you may not draw this connection, but it's a decreation event.

Yeah, totally.

Um, to where the waters cover the whole earth.

Um, so you're back to the very beginning where it was just dark chaotic waters and the spirit was just kind of hovering over the waters.

Yeah.

Um, so every mountain was covered, the temple's destroyed, there is no place in some sense where God dwells.

With his people, yeah.

Um, but there is there's the ark.

Um, and the ark is also it's a symbol, it's a symbol of Jesus, but it's also a symbol of it's a three three-level house.

Yeah.

Um, and and essentially it maps back to um God preserving us and preserving a place in which where he can dwell with us.

Yep.

Um then when when the waters when rain stops and everything, the God's uh Noah sends the dove out, and the dove hovers over the waters just like the spirit did in the beginning.

Yeah.

The water recedes just like it did in the beginning.

The mountain, uh Mount Arrat rises out of the waters just like it did at the beginning.

Yep.

Um, and you know, now God has a place to dwell with with man again.

Yeah, and then it Noah makes a garden.

Noah makes a garden.

And it has wine.

Yeah.

It's very sacramental.

Recreated.

Everything's recreated.

It's all recreated.

Yeah.

And there's a um uh uh in and you can see in that just like okay, so water is this thing that can also be uh regenerative.

It's like it washes away, it's cleansing, cleanse, it washes away the sin.

Yeah, the sin.

Okay, in a sense by like plunging you into a chaotic place, yeah, kind of, but it would it it does the cleansing uh in that story.

That's right.

Yeah.

Um but then it's kind of the way that it like what you're doing is you're showing us that like uh what what what you learn to think is like okay, uh what we normally think is like, yeah, I know what water means, yeah.

And then it's like uh well what how what what has the Bible taught me to know that water means?

Yeah, and that's act that's what water means.

Right, yeah, yeah.

And and even in this story, one of the interesting things to to think about is that of like where the water comes from for the flood.

Um, so it's like the springs of the deep, which is the earth that's already here, yeah.

But also the Bible says that windows and the firmament are opened up, right?

And the waters above come down.

Yeah.

Um, and in that sense, like water is coming down and cleansing um the earth that's been defiled.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um it's like the spirit.

It's like the spirit, yeah.

Yeah, the Holy Spirit.

Yeah, the Holy Spirit that comes down from above under the church.

Yeah.

And and so then, you know, obviously the flood isn't isn't the only aspect of the fall.

I basically categorized everything from the flood to Jesus as being a part of the fall here.

Yeah.

Because it's just it's just patterns of the same thing over and over again.

Yeah.

Um, and so the next one, and we'll just briefly touch on this as we we move into the next piece of it, but the interestingly, in in scripture, the word for ark um in the flood, the next place that is used is the story of Moses.

Right.

Where Moses is put into the ark.

Yeah.

Um, he's saved out of those chaotic waters by the daughter of Pharaoh, and he comes into the house of the king.

Yeah.

Um, and so, but obviously, then you know Moses becomes the mediator through which uh Israel is saved.

Yes.

Uh, as a part of the Exodus.

So that's one of the next next pieces of that.

But there you can also see that there's a rise and there's a fall of Moses and the a redemption of Moses, and Moses has the same pattern of Christ and a lot of what what he does in the New Testament.

Um, but then with Moses, there's the crossing of the Red Sea.

Yeah.

Um, so this is also one of those new new creation events that I think I want um, you know, I want I want people to see.

And also just to There's no more referenced event in scripture.

Than than the Exodus.

Than the Exodus.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that, you know, it's us calling the Exodus baptism isn't just something we're making up.

Um, you know, in in 1 Corinthians 10, Paul actually references it specifically as a baptism event.

Yep.

Um, he says they were baptized into Moses and they then they drank from Christ in the wilderness.

Baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

Yeah.

Waters below and waters above.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, but one of the also the other interesting things about the Exodus is like why is is what's happening here.

Um when Moses goes to Pharaoh, he goes to Pharaoh and says, Let my people go so we can go have a feast with God in the wilderness.

Um which I think ties back to Revelation with the wedding feast.

Uh-huh.

Um, and we all know the story, Pharaoh doesn't want to let them go, but there's this section in uh Exodus 10, uh 9 through 11, where basically Moses is negotiating with Pharaoh over the Israelite children.

Right.

Where he says, Okay, fine, you can go, but your women and your children have to stay here with me.

And Moses says, No, the little ones need to be at the feast.

Yep.

Um, and so there's this negotiation here over whether or not the children who gets the children.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, and I think because he's always trying to the serpent's always trying to chop off the head.

Right.

It's one way to think of it.

Yeah.

And he and he wants to keep the body, and he because he wants to be the head of the body.

Right.

And like the body of these people, like the future of Israel, he wants to be his future and potentiality and that's right.

Moses saying, No, no, no, well, you're not cutting off the head from the body.

Yeah.

We're keeping the whole body together.

Yeah.

And even in even when God tells Adam and Eve that there will be enmity between their seed and his seed, yep.

It's like this is that enmity that was prophesied where Pharaoh did not want to let the seed of Israel go worship God.

Right.

Um, and so I think the the particularly interesting thing about this here is that one uh Paul calls the Exodus crossing a baptism.

Uh-huh.

And then in Exodus, little children are specifically referenced and they're called to.

Yeah.

Um, and we know that they went out and crossed the Red Sea.

Yes.

And so infants in this instance were baptized.

Yep.

Um, according to Scripture.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And and it's a mixed multitude.

A mixed multitude, yeah.

So that gets into the next the next kind of piece of this.

Um, but it says when they leave Egypt, there are there's a host of Egyptians that go with them.

Yeah.

And so Because it's been a wild couple of months.

Yeah.

Got it destroyed.

Yeah, exactly.

And they're like, you know what?

I think they're right.

Yeah.

Um, yeah.

Yeah.

We're going through Exodus with our kids and our family worship in the mornings.

Okay.

And it's uh you uh you just go through those plagues again and it's like, man, yeah.

Frogs.

That'll get you.

Yeah.

What had me at frogs?

Yeah.

No, you kind of get sick of fried frog legs after a while.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, so uh if you want to think about how the new creation kind of plays into the Red Sea crossing event, you can think about it in this way in that they're a mixed multitude.

They go up out of Egypt, they're baptized, everyone's baptized in the Moses, Egyptians, children, women, adult men, um, and they cross over um and they're they're a new Israel.

So one, as Paul will call it, one new man.

Yeah.

Um and now it there's almost still this in-between the you know the Red Crossing and the crossing of the Jordan.

Yep.

Because um, you know, there's there's references to the mixed multitude stirring up grumbling and complaining and and things of that nature.

But it it it there's like a there there's a picture of it, but it's not fully integrated yet.

Right.

You know, just like everything we see until Christ.

Yeah.

Like there's this picture and it's not fully integrated.

Yeah.

Um, but then even thinking about the difference between you know the uh the mixed multitude that goes up out of Egypt and the Israel that crosses over the Jordan into the promised land, they're no longer referenced as a mixed multitude.

Right.

They're just it's just like the everyone dies in the wilderness, yep, and the children are just all now one new people.

Yeah.

Um, and so yeah, that that's kind of the new creation that happens uh in in both of those events.

Um so we see this washing with water coming through the waters, passing through the waters above and below, as this picture in scripture of new creation.

Yeah.

Yeah, and it and this marker of these are the people of the new creation.

Yeah.

The people who have passed through the waters below and the waters above, which is cleansing away from their the the sin and cutting off the rule of the serpent over them is the new creation.

Yeah.

And that that becomes their identity as a people now.

Right.

And I think what we'll start to see is that we'll start to see so many new creations that we'll start to be discouraged and think Is it ever gonna really happen?

Is it yeah, is it ever gonna really be new?

Yeah, like are these ever gonna take?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, and so uh I think which is then it's I think it you know it's part of the reason why they go out in the wilderness and then they're at sign and they're given the law.

Yeah.

Is because this thing is gonna keep happening over and over again.

Yeah, we're gonna need some props, we're gonna need a tutor to watch over these folks.

Right, yeah, because the law was given for sin and for transgression and to teach us.

Um and so you know that leads us to the you know Levitical covenant.

Um and I think again, this is the thing that I called out here from from Hebrews earlier.

This is what Hebrews calls all of the washings, ceremonial washings, the sprinklings of blood, the anointings with oil, all these things that happen in the Levitical in the Mosaic uh covenant, uh baptisms.

Yeah.

Um, and so uh I guess I'll just I'll read that.

Uh actually I'm gonna read uh the amplified Bible just because it it has extra words.

I think it helps us understand it a little bit better.

But it says uh Hebrews 9, 9 to 10, for they, the gifts, sacrifices, and ceremonies, deal only with clean and unclean, food and drink, and various ritual washings, mere external regulations for the body imposed to help the worshippers until the time of Reformation.

That is the time of the new order when Christ will establish the reality of what these things foreshadow, a better covenant.

Um and and so basically, you know, it that that word for washings is baptisms, um, and that it calls it says diverse baptisms.

So there's a lot of ways in which that happens, whether it's water or blood or with ashes or oil, um, all of those things according to the book of Hebrews, yeah, are are baptism events.

Yep.

Um, and I think one of the reasons likely why they would need this is because I imagine walking through the Red Sea and being a participant of that, and all this is just like happening to you.

Yeah.

And you don't even really know what's going on.

Yeah.

And so you need the law to to show you.

Yeah, because it's kind of like this.

Yeah.

It's kind of like you were kind of touched by death, and you need that death washed off of you.

Yeah.

And the way that death can be cleansed off of you is by this other death, which kind of stands in your place, which is kind of like, remember that other death that stood in your place back there?

It's kind of like that.

Yeah.

You know, it is.

That's a great uh that that makes a lot of sense to me.

Yeah.

Yeah, because new birth is essentially resurrection.

It's it's death and resurrection is new creation, new birth.

Yep.

Um, but you see this all through.

I won't, I won't, we don't have to spend a ton of time here, but um there's these different kinds of death in in um the Levitical code where you need to be washed from.

Some of it's animal death.

Um the interesting thing about death is that it it like dump it jumps onto you.

Yeah.

So you touch a dead animal, you're instantly unclean from that.

Yep.

Um doesn't go the other way.

It doesn't go the other way.

You don't touch things and make them clean.

That's right.

Unless you're not sure.

And you would get unclean.

Unless you're another person touching another person.

Um, which is kind of where Paul says death spreads to all men.

Yep.

Um, there's this idea of that if someone dies in the room that you're in, then you're instantly everything in that room is unclean.

Right.

Um, and so there's this idea of then you have to be sprinkled, um, you have to be washed um in order to be made clean again.

Yep.

Um and so there's that idea of But not if you're Gentile.

Not if you're Gentile, yeah.

Yeah.

Um you want to expand on that?

I mean it just a notice, like if you're a if you're a Gentile believer around with these folks and you worship the one true God, and there's uh um uh you die and it someone dies in a room with you, um you can it doesn't matter, you just go on with your life.

Yeah.

These are these aren't your regulations.

Yeah.

They're they're like these patterns are placed on the Israelites in particular.

Yeah.

And they're they're theirs to be fulfilled on behalf of the world.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, and we could even talk about that in a larger sense too, in terms of Israel itself.

So when Israel was taken out of uh Egypt, all of Israel was supposed to be Levites, they were all supposed to be priests for for God and to have that special relationship with him.

But then they sin with the Ten Commandments and their grumblings and complaining.

And so then God tells Moses to make a distinction, and he says, Who's with me?

And the Levites.

Yeah.

The Levites say, We're with you.

Yeah.

And then they go, you know, throughout the camp and kill anyone who's rebelled, and then God says, The Levites are mine.

Yep.

And then they're the ones that can come into my presence, they can guard my mountain, they can guard my temple.

Yep.

Uh they'll be the ones that have this special place and they'll teach everyone else.

Yeah, they're the priestly what I'm like.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They're like the the the Jews of the Jews.

Right.

Yeah.

The Israelites of the Israelites.

Yeah.

And what's what's interesting in that is um, you know, I have this in a in a later place, but maybe we could we should talk about it.

There's there's a word um for the Jews that are used in that sense.

Um and it it's it basically calls so the there's the Levites, but then um there's the rest of the congregation.

And so and it calls them strangers.

So the rest of Israel would be strangers.

So Numbers 310, and you shall appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall guard their priesthood, but if any outsider, that word outsider is is strangers or layman, comes near, he shall be put to death.

And numbers 1640 to be a reminder for the people of Israel that no outsider who is not of the descendants of Aaron should draw near to burn incense before the Lord.

So it's like the it's like the whole nation of Israel is a type of the Gentiles.

Yeah.

Wow.

Wild.

Yeah, that is wild.

Um and and and and later what we'll see, this that's also why you know when Jeremiah has this prophecy of the new covenant and says they will all know me from the latest to the Greece, or from the greatest to the least.

It's like this inclusion of all of Israel.

It's not we're all we're a holy priesthood royal nation.

That greatest and least always refer then the way those words are used, are always referred to rank and class of people.

And so it's basically a firm removal of the Levites as their special place.

Yeah.

Because Jesus is now our high priest.

Um, and so there's there's no distinction anymore, and we all have access to the throne of God, we have our introduction through Christ.

Yeah.

Um, and so now we don't need um Levites in the same way that we used to to have a knowledge of God that um that they that they needed.

So to to bring us back to baptism, there's this i you're seeing that in these rituals themselves that they're given, that these Levites are to perform on behalf of the people of Israel, their baptism rituals.

They're they're baptism Hebrews describes them as baptism rituals of cleansing.

Yeah, yeah.

Of cleansing specifically.

And you know, we've seen that cleansing baptism already is is signifying uh cleansing and washing and regeneration, yeah, new creation.

Um and that's what's happening.

All the all those cleansing uh rituals in the Old Testament are because someone has come in contact with death in one way or the other, uh huh.

And so the death is now on them and they need to be washed so that they can have new life and come back to the feast in the presence of God.

Yeah, yeah.

But and you gotta do it before corruption sets in.

That's right.

You're gone, gone.

Then you're gone.

Yeah.

Yeah.

If you yeah, if you die while being unclean, you're like cooked.

Cooked, yeah.

Yeah.

Um, so you know, there's all that, there's there's um prophecies in Isaiah and Ezekiel.

We already talked about sprinkling of the nations and things of that, of what the Messiah will do.

Um, and then that kind of leads us to John the Baptist.

Um and we already talked about him uh essentially, but the Pharisees knew that he was going to come baptizing, um, and they knew because of those prophecies.

But there's also some interesting thing about John's baptism where it's associated with um cleansing and purification.

Yeah.

Um, so in John 3, basically they come to John and they said to him, Rabbi, he who is with you across the Jordan to whom you bore witness, look, he's baptizing people, and everyone is going with them.

So Jesus is now baptizing.

Yep.

Um, but the way that that that word is used there in that text is it's used interchangeably with purification.

Yeah, yeah.

Because it's the same thing.

It's the same, it's a picture of the same reality.

Same thing, yeah.

And what John is actually doing here, he's he's he's participating with the story of Scripture, and that he's he's saying, if you're gonna repent and be baptized, you are spiritually unclean, just like the people in the wilderness.

So this is kind of why he's at the Jordan.

Is they're he's baptizing the Jordan because they're crossing the Jordan once again to enter the promised land.

Yep.

Um, so they're re-identifying themselves with God and the promises of God and the things that God is calling them to and what he's promised to give them.

Right.

We are not of that rebellious generation that dies in the wilderness.

Yeah.

We are the ones that pass through the water again, leaving that rebellion behind to follow the Lord.

That's right.

Yeah.

Which is pretty cool.

That is pretty cool.

Yeah.

So you see that it's like the Yeah, why is he going to the Jordan to do this baptism?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um so then that leads us to, unless you want to touch on anything else there.

No, I just like it a lot.

Saw your your head going.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It just makes a lot of sense.

Yeah.

Cool.

Well, that's good because I often feel like Because like how else would you kick off the story of the of like the tr the fulfillment of all these promises of going into the land?

You would you would start by entering back into the land.

Yeah.

In the way that you did, which is the crossing the Jordan.

Yeah.

Which is the Exodus.

Yeah.

Which is the flood.

Which is these little personal pictures of cle being cleansed by this baptism.

Yeah.

And it and it makes sense on why John's father, when he gives that pronouncement of who John's going to be, he draws on the promises of the Old Testament.

Yeah.

Um.

Yeah, it's it's really cool.

Yeah, it is really cool.

I'm glad it's making sense because often I feel like a conspiracy theorist, and I've got my like strings drawn from every other place.

Yes.

Um Pepe Sylvia.

Pepe Sylvia.

You know, no one knows what I'm talking about most of the time.

Especially my wife.

She just looks at me and I'm Yeah.

Say and say that's probably not it.

Yeah.

Well, I don't think through things like this when I actually talk to her about it, so that's probably part of it.

Yeah.

Um okay, so redemption.

So John kind of he's the last of the Old Testament prophets.

I think that's the other thing about John is people that think tend to think John's part of the New Testament.

Yeah, yeah.

He's the last Old Testament prophet.

But yeah, he's he's part of um part of that.

Um and so we you should just think we should think about him differently.

Yeah.

Um, but it leads us to Jesus.

Um, John baptizes Jesus.

Um, and there's all this there's all this stuff in the Bible about a changing of priesthood.

Yes.

Um, and what priesting to do.

Um but when Moses had to um consecrate Aaron and his sons for the priesthood, he sprinkled them and he washed them, so he baptized them um so that they would become a priest, especially the high priest.

Yeah.

And um Hebrews references when there's a change in pr in priesthood, there's a change in law.

Right.

Um, and we know that uh when the high priest dies, you're you're free to come back.

Free to come back from the city of refuge.

Yeah.

Um and so there's a bunch of significance here.

We know that Jesus is from the tribe of Judah, he's not from the tribe, or he's not from Levi like Aaron was.

Right.

Um he and we know his priesthood's after Melchizedek, so there's this change of priesthood.

And because there's a change of priesthood, there's a following of the law of Moses here, where when John says to Jesus, I should be baptized by you, Jesus says, No, I'm doing this to fulfill all of the law.

He's being baptized to enter into his ministry as the high priesthood.

High priest, yeah.

Um, and so, and then he offers himself up as a sacrifice once and for all.

Um that's a better priesthood.

Better priesthood.

Yeah.

Um, and we don't have to continually go.

And so this kind of gets into the conversation with Nicodemus, which I thought was really cool.

Yeah.

Um because Jesus is is basically saying Um that it is possible for the new creation to actually take.

Yep.

Um, so and we've talked we've been talking about this.

We've been talking about new creation over and over.

We know that people fall and we don't live up to to what they we promised to do.

Um, but Nick And and the and like you said, like the new creation is almost like this riddle in scripture of like, is anything ever actually cleansed?

That's right.

Is anything ever actually restored?

Is it because it all it's just like things fall apart over and over again?

Yeah.

Yeah, and after hundreds of years, the Israelites know the sacrifices aren't actually covering for their sins, they can't atone.

Right.

Um, and that's kind of what you get in this um conversation with Nicodemus in John 3, where Jesus says, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, but that can also be translated as born from above.

Yeah.

Which kind of takes you back to those waters above idea.

Um he cannot see born, yeah.

He cannot see the kingdom of God.

And so Nicodemus, when he says, Can a mother can a man go back into his mother's womb?

He's not just Oh, yeah, an idiot.

He doesn't know anything about the wall.

Yeah.

How did this guy become a Pharisee?

Yeah, that's not the read.

He's like probably like the most brilliant theologian of the time.

That's right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so what he's doing is he's asking Jesus, can history be reversed?

I've I've seen the pattern of history.

I know that there have been multiple new creations and it's not taking.

But he's saying, can there really be a new creation?

Yeah.

Um, and Jesus replies by saying that um history is is not reversed or undone, but rather that the new birth is from above of water and of spirit.

Um and so we you and there's different things here, but we look back at Genesis, Adam was made without water.

Yeah you know, the the dust was God just the spirit breathed on the dust.

Um the water came from the ground and gave plants life, but but man was not made from groundwater, he just was made from just spirit and dust and dry earth.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, and so being born of water is is a eschatological idea of that like the waters from heaven and the spirit are coming down upon us in a new way, yeah, and giving us this life that we didn't have before.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, and so Nicodemus then says, how can these things be?

Like, how is it possible for a man to be born of the water and spirit and this new creation to take place?

Um and Jesus eventually gets to us in verse verses 13 and 15, and he says basically that his atoning his atoning death will make him the mediator, the new firmament between heaven and heaven and earth, and he's gonna grant men access to the you know the heavenly waters and through the spirit.

Yeah.

So it's like how me.

Yeah, me.

That's a wild answer.

Which I've never heard that before.

Yeah.

You know, this is one of those moments where I'm just like tearing my cloak and just ashes on my head.

Yeah.

But yeah, it's it's it's crazy um to think about.

And then you see the baptism of Jesus, and the baptism of Jesus has this pattern of he's in the Jordan, so that kind of goes back to the waters below.

The crossing of the Israel crosses the Jordan, um, out of the water echoes back to you know, creation or through the waters in the Exodus, the heavens split open, which is like the flood event kind of happening.

Yeah, exactly.

The windows of the firmament opening up.

Open up, yeah.

Um, and the spirit descends on Jesus like a dove, just like Noah sending the spirit or sending the dove out over the waters after the flood.

Um, and then God's words to Jesus says, You are my beloved son.

Um, this is actually uh echoed to the Israelites in Exodus, where Moses he calls Israel God's beloved son, but it's also said of everyone in Revelation, um, where God declares everyone, you are my beloved son.

Yeah.

Um which is kind of gets us into the glorification piece, but yeah.

Um I just thought that was really cool.

Like one, he's a he's a new high priest, um, so he's fulfilling it, but also his baptism is a part of this larger story of scripture, not only in the past, but what's coming in Revelation.

Yeah.

Which is really cool.

That is super cool.

Um, and then lastly, the glorification.

So in Revelation 20, there's this idea of it says that and the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged each according each one of them according to what they had done.

Um so I thought that was really weird.

For a while, this I didn't quite understand.

Oh well, uh one I was trying to figure out what's this glorification pattern with baptism that I can put in here so it goes in this theme.

Um and I just was like thinking of or searching new creation, because that was the pattern I was seeing.

Yeah.

Which led me to to Revelation 20.

Yeah.

Um, and I was like, this is kind of weird that the sea gives up dead, but death and Hades also give up dead.

Give up dead.

Yeah, what's why are there two categories of dead people here?

Yeah.

Um aren't we all just dead and then we go and then we're judged?

Um so I just for a while, I you know, I I was looking at different lexicons and things and not happy with what people were saying about it.

Yeah, I was basically saying that this should comfort people that die at sea, that yeah, anyone who's lost out at sea will one day be resurrected as well.

Which doesn't I don't yeah, I didn't like that.

Yeah.

Like perhaps pastorally useful when there's a lot of transatlantic crossings.

Yeah, if we if we had a uh church on on the coast of New England.

Yeah.

Uh maybe.

Maybe, yeah.

Yeah.

Um 200 years ago.

Right.

But yeah, it just it it didn't help.

Uh it didn't answer my uh my questions there.

But then there's um there's a verse in Peter where it talks about um Jesus descending into the lower regions of the earth and leading a train of captives free.

Uh-huh.

Um and lower regions could be like Hades.

Yeah.

So prior to Christ, when people died, they went went to Hades.

Right.

And even in Hades, there's still an idea of the bosom of Abraham.

Yeah, it can be a nice place.

And then like the not nice place.

Right.

Nice places, bad places in Hades.

That's right.

Unbridgeable chasm between.

Right.

Yeah.

Um but when Christ dies, he goes there, he proclaims the truth, he and he leads Abraham and everyone else who was justified by faith in the Old Testament uh to heaven.

Right.

Uh and so then after that, like there's n there's no real and when people die after Christ, there's not really a need for people to go to Hades anymore.

Right.

Um we we can go be with him.

Yeah, we can be with the Father.

Yeah.

And so I think what what this is is that the idea of the heavenly sea is basically the idea of um of the righteous who die in Christ, you know, after his resurrection until his second coming.

This um is making me think of um uh the the description of the throne of God as a glassy sea.

Yeah, it's surrounded by a glassy sea.

And that's like uh it's like a maybe an image of being before the throne of God.

Yeah.

And us being made a part of the waters above, yeah.

Baptized with those waters above.

Now that's we that's where we belong, is before his throne.

Yeah.

We have entrance into the holy of place or the holy of holies in the tabernacle, because now we're all a chosen priesthood or uh, you know, a royal nation.

Um we have our introduction with Christ, we can all go through that curtain.

Like weirdly, that curtain in the tabernacle is a picture of the firmament between the waters above and waters below.

Yeah.

Um, and so now we can we are before the in in the in the presence of God.

Yeah.

Um, and the the other cool thing with this then is that um what we see next is the new creation, where he says, Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven, and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

Yeah.

So there's there's also there's no need now for a division of barrier between heaven and earth.

We're just together.

Yeah.

And the the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven, almost like it's passing through those waters.

Yeah.

Um, and now there's no temple in the new creation.

Right.

Because God is able to live with us again.

Yeah.

Or end in this way, like in a way in which there's actually no boundary.

Right.

Um, and so full reconciliation, full unity.

Right.

Yeah.

And that's one of the reasons why we baptize.

Um, it's why, you know, it's why we give people in marriage today.

We know that one day they're not going to be given a marriage.

Yep.

Because marriage is a picture of Christ in the church.

Right.

And we'll have the thing itself.

We'll have the thing itself.

And so we baptize today in hope of the new creation that we'll be back in the presence of God.

He'll be living and walking among us.

Yeah.

And Paul says, if any man is in Christ, he's a new creation.

The old thing has passed away, behold, the new has come.

What why so why should we baptize infants?

Well, one, they're baptized in the Exodus.

Yeah.

Um, but I think it also it then gets in, okay.

So now this is a big picture of baptism.

Yes.

Um, but now it's like it's then looking, okay, baptism is new creation.

God wants to live with us.

Yes.

So how does how do we have a relationship with God?

And the covenant is how God makes relationship with man.

Okay.

And so then it's looking at um the covenants in scripture, uh-huh, what they mean, um, and then what the new covenant means in relation to them.

Okay.

So how do we see uh the covenants in scripture uh where does that relate to the baptizing of um infants?

Yes.

Well, basically, so with the covenants of scripture and the way that would relate to infants would be the fact that infants are covenant members, so they're they're partakers of the covenant.

Um and so you would see this with um the promise to Abraham, uh-huh, where God makes the covenant with Abraham, and we know that that covenant he makes is for them an illiteral seed, but it also, according to Galatians, that seed is Christ.

Right.

So we know that that is a a picture of the new covenant.

Yep.

Um, but that is a covenant he makes with Abraham.

Um the Bible says Abraham has faith, and then as a way to mark his faith to as a sign or seal to him, God gives him circumcision.

Right.

So this is Abraham has faith and is believes, so someone has faith and is baptized.

Yep.

But then God tells Moses to give that sign of circumcision to his children.

Right.

Who would the Baptist would argue can't have faith.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, but what we'll actually see is that the sign of circumcision and what circumcision represents is not just bodily, it's that, but it's also spiritual.

Yep.

And that baptism and circumcision have the same spiritual meaning.

Yeah.

And if we're giving the sign of the covenant to infants, um, and circumcision has a spiritual meaning, and they're full partakers of the covenant in the old testament, then in the new covenant, which what we'll see is the new covenant is a taking up of the promise to Abraham.

Yep.

Um we can no longer have the sign of circumcision for several reasons.

One, the Gentiles couldn't have it as Gentiles, they have to fully convert to being Jewish if they want the sign of the covenant.

So it can't be a sign of unity among the nations, the nations.

Um, it's a bloody rite which points to Christ.

Right, which has been fulfilled, which has been fulfilled.

So Christ sacrificed once and for all.

Um, so I think with those two things, circumcision has to have um a replacement.

Um, and we see in the New Testament Christ saying, Go into all the world, baptize all nations.

And then the pattern in the New Testament scripture is repent and believe, they're baptized, or um, they were baptized and 2,000 were added to the number.

Well, what is that number other than the church?

Right.

Um, and so baptism um becomes um the covenant sign.

Um, but then as well in Colossians, um let me see here.

In Colossians, Paul basically equates um circumcision and baptism.

Yeah.

And he says that your baptism is what actually gives you the circumcision of your heart.

Right.

Um, and we know that circumcision was meant to be circumcision of the heart.

Yeah.

So another reason why we don't have circumcision as the sign is that anyone who believes in Christ has already had their heart circumcised.

Yeah, circumcision made without hands.

So it's not needed anymore.

Right.

Yeah.

Um, so it goes kind of away from the it goes away from the prefiguring of Christ in the way in which he would die for us, I think, to a prefiguring of the way Christ comes back again, has this new creation, the Holy Spirit comes upon us, and we now get to live in the presence of God.

Yeah, yeah.

So at the so we see that the picture of what baptism is, from the Exodus to the crossing of the Jordan, it's uh it's applied to the whole people of God.

And it is as it's applied to the whole people of God, this becomes the sacramental covenant sign of the new covenant instantiated by Christ Himself.

And so the question is, well, how do we um uh to whom do we apply that sign to?

Yeah.

And it's well, the people to whom the covenant promises rest on.

Yeah.

And how are the covenant promises articulated throughout scripture?

It's to you and to your offspring.

That's right.

Yeah.

And I think it's not even just applying, we see that there the covenant sign is applying to apply to children.

It's that if you failed to circumcise your children, they were to be cut off.

Yeah.

They and and considered accursed and not a part of the people of God.

And so it's not just that they were to be included, it's that they were to be included to the point where if you didn't do this, then you're not a part of the people of God.

Yeah.

Um, and so you see you see that, but then yes, the to who should it be applied um to the children, the promises.

And when you start looking at all the promises made that included children, and you start thinking about so if you put kind of like what we did with baptism when we go through scripture with it and we see baptism, if you kind of go through scripture with just children and put baptism baptizing infants on hold for a second, yeah, and you just look at all the places children are referenced in the old testament, how they're referenced, you pretty quickly begin to see that they're included.

Yeah.

Can you give us some examples?

Yeah.

So uh Malachi 215, where basically God says, What's the point of man and a woman being joined in one spirit?

Um, and what was God seeking?

Was it not godly offspring?

Yeah.

Um, so now we know one of the points of marriage is God wants godly children.

Yeah.

Um, then you know the promises of God don't shrink between old and new covenants because God doesn't change.

And so one of the ways that we we kind of see God's unchangeableness and children connected is in Psalm 102, um, where it says to God, but you are the same, and your years have no end, and the children of your servants shall dwell secure, and their offspring offspring shall be established before you.

Yep.

Um so God's unchangeable nature and the way that he relates to his people is through them and their children and their children's children.

Um you also then see that generational faithfulness is not the basis of works.

It's God's chosen choice.

Yep.

Um chosen choice, that's good.

Yeah, yeah, that's good.

Um But Deuteronomy 5, 9 to 10, I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing love, but showing steadfast love to thousands.

It kind of stops at thousands, but the idea here is God's going to visit the sins of the fathers to the kids, but he's also gonna visit the righteousness of the fathers to the kids.

And then in 7-9 it tells you what those thousands mean, but it says, Know therefore the Lord your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandment to a thousand generations.

Yeah.

Um, so covenant faithfulness is not on the basis of anything we do, it's what God is going to fulfill this promise.

Um, and then you see that every covenant God has ever made with man has included the child and the parent.

So Adam and Eve, he promises a seed that will crush the head of the serpent.

Yep.

Noah and all his children were in.

The ark and saved, and the promise was made with them that he would not destroy the world.

Yep.

Abraham is a promise of many nations.

Yeah.

Uh and I the stars of the heavens, dust of the earth.

Yeah.

The covenant with Moses is basically to Moses on behalf of Israel and the children of Israel, and we just saw to a thousand generations.

Yeah.

And he calls them, yeah, to my beloved son.

Yep.

Um, then there's the covenant with David and establishing his house, but also specifically with Solomon, and we see that God treats Solomon according to how the promise that he'd made to David.

He related to David.

He treats all the kings of Judah like that.

Yeah.

And then in the new covenant, where Peter gets up and says, the promises to you and to your children.

So you see he's taking that up from the Old Testament with pretty much every covenant.

Um, but then there's also just a string of scriptures that God establishes a people and promises that they will be faithful along with their children and grandchildren.

So you see that in Ezekiel, where Ezekiel's looking forward to where the the new David will come and be king.

It says, My servant David will be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd, and they shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes.

They shall dwell in the land that I gave my servant Jacob, where your fathers live, they and their children, and their children's children shall dwell there forever, and my servant David will be their prince forever.

Um Isaiah says similar similar things.

Um I put my in your mouth my words I put in your mouth, and shall not depart from your mouth, and out of your mouth of your offspring, or out of the mouth of your children's offspring, says the Lord, from this time and forevermore.

Another one in Isaiah is they shall not they shall not build, and another inhabit, they shall not plant, and another eat, for like the days of a tree shall be the days of my people, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

They shall not labor in vain to for they shall not labor in brain or bear children for calamity.

They shall be the offspring of the blessed of the Lord and their descendants with them.

Which is super cool and encouraging as parents.

You're not going to labor in vain.

Jeremiah thirty-two, it says, And they shall be my people, I'll be their God, I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear me forever for their own good and for the good of their children after them.

And I will make an everlasting covenant that I will not turn away from doing good to them, and I will put the fear of me in their hearts, and they will not turn from me.

Um so that's another one.

I have another psalm.

But you can say, Well, isn't this this is just old Testament promises being misappropriated?

Yeah, yeah, okay.

You've convinced me that I can't no longer allow to do that, but keep going.

I've got news for you.

Yeah.

Um when the angel tells Mary that she's going to be with child, she quotes Psalm 103.

Psalm 103 says, But the steadfast love of the Lord in the SV, but that love is also this the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting of those who fear him and his righteousness to children's children, to those who keep his covenant and remember to do his commandments.

And Mary says in Luke 1, she says, He has looked on the humble estate of his servant, for behold, from now on all generations will call me best, for he who is mighty has done great things for me and his holy name and his mercy for those who fear him from generation to generation.

So she quotes Psalm 103, understand that Jesus is a fulfillment of that.

Um the angels, uh, I think this is to John's father, they they knew that the old testament would promise uh promise that families would be put right in the Messiah.

So what the angel said uh was that he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, um, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just to make ready a people for the Lord.

So fathers and children are being included in the people of the Lord.

Yep.

Um and so what we're seeing is that Jesus didn't arrive in a vacuum, and that he was steeped in the scriptures.

And then when he says, Um, Jesus called to them saying, Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for such belongs the kingdom of God.

He's drawing on all the promises that God has ever given, and all the covenants that God has ever made.

And then in Acts 2, we just talked about where Peter says this.

Um the Acts 2 is saying that the Holy Spirit is for our children.

Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, for the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, everyone for whom the Lord God calls to himself.

Um and then lastly, you'll see the apostles refer to children as members of the body of Christ in Colossians and Ephesians.

Yep.

But children obey your parents in the Lord, for this is the right honor your father and mother, for this is the first commandment with a promise.

Yeah.

Um, but then Ephesians actually takes it to say the ESV says it that you may live long in the land, but it also means it lives live long on the earth.

Yeah.

Um, and so like you see the New Testament taking up that theme of all those promises.

Um, and for me, just what when I see how baptism is used in Scripture, it's not just immersion, most of the time it's sprinkling or pouring.

It represents the Holy Spirit and God's presence coming with us.

Um you see the whole through whole all of Scripture that from Genesis to Revelation, you see all the promises of of children and God's covenant with his people from Genesis to Revelation.

Um to me, it starts to become overwhelming that this is different than what I first thought, and we should be thinking about this differently.

Yeah.

Um, and then I also think that it makes all those other arguments that we didn't even talk about today, like household baptisms and things of that nature, it makes those stronger because it's got all of this surrounding it, um, versus uh just some of those isolated elements of repent and believe.

Um and the and additionally, the even the interesting thing in the New Testament, I think there's five accounts of baptisms, yeah, and only half of them are individual.

Yeah.

And some of those are like a eunuch was baptized, so he's not gonna have children.

Yep.

Paul was baptized, he's not gonna have children.

Yeah.

So you're only getting down to like one or two instances of a repent and believe type.

The rest is households.

And God's already showed us that he's deals with us with parent and child relationships, and a lot of that's because of just he's a parent and child.

Yeah.

It's like what we're participating in is an is a reflection of what's happening in in heaven.

Yeah.

So your children, Christian, are the ones who have passed through the waters.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I like there's a lot we could talk about here.

Like we didn't talk about the historicity of it, or there's so many things.

Yeah, yeah.

So many things.

This is the but the the thread that you're hitting on it, I I just find thrilling.

Yeah.

And like so beautiful and glorious.

Yeah.

Well, I might I imagine it's like it's what we talked about in Roman studies, like the gospel that was preached beforehand, or you know, Jesus revealing the Old Testament to those disciples on the road to Emmaus.

It's like, I think this is this is kind of what it would feel like.

Like your heart starts to burn inside you, you get excited about this.

Yeah, exactly.

You see all the connections.

Um, I don't know.

For me, that this is a lot of the argument that has convinced me, and I'll probably be getting a tattoo after this.

My idea for you is a tattoo of an uh adult being baptized by an infant.

Yeah, it's perfect.

I think that'd be awesome.

Um, but yeah, I I think this is and there's more, so if people have questions, like I'd be happy to talk to anyone, or maybe we could do a question and answer episode or something sometime.

Yeah, that'd be cool.

Uh to me, this is this is what was the convincing um for me was baptism through scripture, children through scripture, the covenants, which I have a bunch of notes on and we haven't talked about, but like um I don't know, it just became overwhelming for me.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

That this isn't just something that's made up.

Yeah.

Man, Aaron, thanks so much.

I feel like I'm just like uh super encouraged by uh what you've shared today, just seeing these threads that I haven't seen before that I just think are so beautiful, and um, I think other folks in our church will be encouraged as well, and and questions will be uh provoked as well, which is good.

Yeah, that's great.

Thanks, dude.

Yeah, that was awesome.

Cool.

All right, keep up good work and I'll see you for dinner tonight.

All right, so that's good.

Thanks, everybody.

We'll uh wrap up there and see you next time we do this.

Goodbye.