Romans 8:26-39 | RCD Podcast

Hi, my name is James Rathman.

Hi, this is Alan Brannon.

And this is not the Aaron and James Podcast, although it is very much like it, except for no Aaron.

This is uh we are actually changing the Aaron and James podcast into the Redemption Church podcast.

So just as Aaron and I have worked together to continue uh providing, we we hope encouraging and further resources for uh Redemption Church, uh supplementing our Bible studies.

We're going to expand it a bit, and there's going to be more folks uh on this podcast with me uh from within our church.

We'll be able to expand a bit of what we're doing for the church, which will be continuing to supplement Bible studies, but also include people's testimonies and uh hoping to share some news soon with the missionaries that we're uh supporting in England and Scotland.

Um that'll be fun.

Yeah, that'll be pretty cool.

John's over there now.

John Kuhnov is over there now with them, uh, which is pretty exciting as they're just beginning to host services in their churches.

Um and we are uh also a space to answer questions about sermons and um hopefully just uh a uh helpful, encouraging resource for the church.

And so Alan, uh one of our deacons, is joining us here for what is our inaugural episode.

What an honor.

Yeah, absolutely.

And a joy.

Yeah, for sure.

Uh so this episode of the Redemption Church Denver Podcast is brought to you by the upcoming Redemption Church Book Club, which is which is uh, of course, hosted, and uh Alan is the caretaker of this book club.

So we've got you in the flesh.

And uh want to say a little bit about what we're reading this month?

Sure.

This month we're reading Jay Gresham Machin's book, Christianity and Liberalism.

And this is a uh famous book.

Uh it's about a hundred, it's over a hundred years old.

It was written in 1923, uh, and it's still in print today, uh, still widely read uh throughout the church, not just in the PCA.

And uh it's really comparing, I guess contrasting Christianity uh really versus liberalism.

And so liberalism is thought of as uh really a different religion uh in a sense.

Um and it's it's uh talking about that which proceeded from, I guess, postmodernism, uh, or modernism really, uh, and then uh that that leading into uh German higher criticism of of scripture and uh the the loss of the consequent loss of authority of scripture.

And uh it uh Machin really does a marvelous job of pointing out very precisely uh the theological implications of that shift.

Um and it's it's um kind of breathtaking to look at the things that he predicted in a sense that have very much come to come to pass.

Yeah, so it's a great book, it's really helpful, really prescient.

It's crazy that it was written a hundred years ago.

And uh so go ahead and grab a copy of that book, Christianity and Liberalism, Jay Gresham Machin, and join us on Monday, October 13th from 7 to 8:30 at Leavers Locavore.

It's a great place to hang out and talk about theology.

Also, there's an upcoming men's night, which will be on Friday, October 17th.

And the theme for this night is lead.

So we're almost through the uh sort of like categories that we've decided to focus on for these men's nights.

There's the two that are left are lead and love.

And so this is a essential calling of men to lead, and uh we'll get some sense of what that means to lead as men in a biblical frame.

So that's October 17th from 7 to 9 p.m.

It's Friday night.

So hope all the men at Redemption are able to join us for that.

So we've got one of the most wonderful texts to talk about uh today, which is Romans chapter 8, the second half of Romans chapter 8.

Romans 8 · chapter mention Romans 8 · chapter mention

This is this is really a soaring part of scripture.

This is uh what a joy to be here to talk about the end of Romans eight.

Do you uh do you remember first encountering or first seeing Romans chapter eight?

I remember first studying this in college uh back at Clemson, and this was at RUF Clemson Reformed University Fellowship.

Uh-huh.

And I remember uh studying through the entirety of Romans in that study and just the culmination of the glory that is the end of Romans 8.

And I don't know if it was exactly after this um this part of the book, but sometime around here, um, I remember just being overcome by the glory of God's redemption and uh and just walking through campus uh with a sense of elation and uh freedom and worship.

Yeah.

It's uh this is this is a stunning passage.

That's so cool to hear.

I had a really similar experience.

My freshman year at CU Boulder in a Bible study, getting to Romans 8, and it was overwhelming.

I think that there's this sort of constant nagging of for for so many Christians of can I lose my faith?

Can I uh am I still teetering on the edge?

And uh and uh Is this dependent on me?

Is this dependent on me?

What do I have to do?

Exactly.

Uh what do I finally have to do to be saved?

What what is and and am I doing that enough?

Or is it or or am I falling away from that?

And this chapter just stamped that out of me.

And it shifted things completely towards uh this just recognition that uh he has me.

He is the one who saved me, and I am in his hands, and I could be no more t snatched out of his hands than I could go and snatch some of God's glory out of his hands.

He has so united them together.

And it that was just this wave of assurance that I didn't even know was available in the Christian life, and it turns out it's plainly here in the Bible.

And I as I've seen, you know, as I've watched Christians uh since then and friends since then, it I sort of maybe it's kind of strange from what I just said, because it was such a depth of assurance that it gave me, but I I also think that like a grasp of this truth is in many ways the difference I've seen between folks who have remained walking with the Lord and folks who've walked away.

And I think that this is one of the central things that must be grasped in order to have a faith that perseveres.

Because I've seen because the shape of people's wandering that I've seen over and over is a flirtation with sin, a falling into sin, a an assessment of that which says the Lord has obviously abandoned me, and then that's followed shortly thereafter by an abandonment of the Lord.

And the the missing ingredient that I just want people to have is this r radical shift in understanding of you can't fall out of the love of Jesus Christ.

And he is the one who fully grasps you.

And so we can rest in that.

We can rest in that.

And then when sin rears its head in you again, you don't run away from the Lord any longer, but you turn to him, knowing that he has already done everything necessary in order to save you.

And I think that little turn, that little moment of do I turn away from him and hide, or do I turn towards him and rest and gratitude.

Yes.

Uh i is like a watershed for the Christian faith.

And it puts us in that right perspective.

Yes.

Yes.

It moves us from our default programming of what do I have to do to a position of gratitude and reliance on him.

Yes.

Which is where the righteousness comes from, anyway.

Exactly.

So let's jump in at verse 26.

Uh, we've already seen such wonderful glories in this chapter on how to live in the spirit.

And then he brings us to the topic of prayer.

He says, Likewise, the spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.

And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the spirit, because the spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God, and we know that for those who love God, all things work together for good.

So he says that the Lord the the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know what to pray for as we ought.

Why do you think he goes here towards like a the ignorance of our prayers?

Like we don't know what to we don't know what to ask for.

I think well this follows on from the previous passage, of course, where um this is talking about the the groaning of creation, uh, but we have the first fruits of the spirit, and so we get to see here what some of what those first fruits are, that uh the spirit is our helper.

And so when we think back to um you know previous verses where where is it where Jesus says that he will send a another helper or comforter, or um I think Calvin's commentary says that he would prefer to stay advocate.

Yeah.

Um and we get to see the advocacy here of the Spirit and what a great benefit that is, and how that can be such a great benefit that we can consider it in some sense uh something that the disciples would look forward to uh even in comparison to Christ leaving them in person.

Yes.

You know, I think like uh one of the great acknowledgments to this passage is that your life will be confusing and you will be written into corners that you don't know how to write yourself out of.

And you'll find yourself in situations uh relationally where you you don't even know what a good outcome is.

Would a good outcome be to never see this person again?

Would a good outcome be to reconcile?

Would a good outcome be it's like you can't even tell, you know?

Uh and uh those are uh a real part of the Christian life.

Uh an experience of such loss that you're totally disoriented and don't know uh even what to pray for.

I mean, Paul writes uh in 2 Corinthians that he gets to a point where he had despaired of even life itself.

And in those places we have this promise, which is you don't know what to pray for.

You don't know, you don't know what the good outcome would be.

And in that place, what you consider is it's like this whole passage is training you, don't consider yourself, consider the work of the spirit.

And this is training you, I may not know, but the one who knows prays for me.

And when I pray to the Lord, the Spirit Himself intercedes on my behalf, and he takes the heart groanings and the the intentions of the of that prayer, and he precisely attunes it towards his perfect purposes.

And that is that is a glorious freedom to uh to to know in our prayers and hope and ought to be this wonderful encouragement to pray uh in ways that are like uh not irreverent, but uh fully reliant.

Yeah.

Perfect.

Yeah, fully reliant.

Fully reliant.

So our prayers are not the types of things where it's like we work out the whole riddle uh and then we uh uh present it to the genie to execute perfectly on our behalf.

Aaron Ross Powell In some sense, isn't that what it's meant by when we pray in Jesus' name?

Um it's uh I've heard it in a sense, it's it's a it's a an asking that if Christ would have prayed something different, then let that be the case.

Yeah, that's really good.

That's really good.

Yeah, I think that's true.

And it and that's the the conference that we have is that that's happening.

That's happening in our prayers.

And so the wonderful thing that we learn about the spirit here is that he who searches hearts, so that's an understanding of you.

You know, we like what's uh a lot of times it's like what's more mysterious to me than me?

You know, it's not like we have this like perfect salience with regards to what we're like.

Wouldn't that be wonderful?

Yeah.

Or terrible.

Why did I think that?

Or why am I why am I concerned right now?

Exactly.

Those are isn't it weird that those are like meaningful questions?

And we uh but the spirit himself, the spirit knows our hearts perfectly better than we know them.

And the spirit also knows, of course, what the mind of the spirit is, what the mind of God is.

And so he is able to intercede for us perfectly.

Intercede for us perfectly because he perfectly knows you.

So it's intercession, it's real intercession.

Advocate is a great word because he knows you and because he knows the perfect will of God.

And he he can relate those to make our prayers uh effective and that effectiveness is the same as perfectly beneficial to us.

And combined with that it it comes to mind that Christ is our intercessor with the Father.

So he's now seated at the right hand of the Father.

And so we have in heaven uh one who intercedes, and we have in us one who intercedes.

It's just glorious.

It's an it's an amazing confidence.

And then you might think, okay, well, what is he you know, I don't get everything that I ask for.

That's a good thing.

It that becomes sensible.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The genie's helpful because um like the The concept of a genie.

The concept of a genie is helpful, yeah.

Um there's that uh great Norm MacDonald joke.

Okay, you're gonna have to help me.

Which I'll tell now.

Uh where a guy comes up to the bar and he's got a big pumpkin head.

And uh he the so the bartender says, Well, what's going on, man?

How can you have this big pumpkin's head?

And he says, Well, I had this genie, and he gave me three wishes.

And he says, Oh, no kidding.

Well, what what happened?

What happened?

He goes, Well, the first wish, I wished for, you know,$20 billion.

I got it.

Just like that.

$20 billion.

And then my second wish, I wished that the love of my life would finally fall in love with me.

And she did.

Love of my life, she finally fell in love with me.

He was like, okay, okay, but what happened?

What happened with the third wish?

And he goes, Well, the third wish, I was a real idiot.

I wished for this big pumpkin head.

That's Norm MacDonald for you.

You expect something more complicated.

Exactly.

The point is, you you know, uh, that's you don't know what to wish for.

You don't know what to wish for.

That seemed like a good idea.

Exactly.

The point is you don't know what to wish for.

And that God is not a genie granting wishes.

Our prayers are not witches that uh w are there to teach us lessons.

And we don't have to say them with pr a certain incantation.

Exactly.

Precision in order to write off the dangers of what might come from these things.

Because here's the the w the just like mysterious, unthinkably good news.

It's almost too good to to let yourself think, but you must, because it's true of Romans 8.28, which which says, and we know that for those who love God, all things work together for good.

Wait, you mean all things?

All of them.

All of them.

What what about immaterial things?

They work together for good.

To those who love God.

That there is they that it so it's like the uh it's 10,000 times better than a genie.

Because there's no there's We have an advocate.

We have an advocate who perfectly knows you and loves us enough that he didn't spare his own son.

Right.

Right.

So our prayers are uh they're the the Lord makes them as effective as if Jesus prayed them.

Because they are prayed by the same spirit and Jesus is the one interceding for us.

So so people reading this passage and the one in chapter nine uh often will say something like, Well, why should I pray then?

Yeah.

But hearing this, I think why wouldn't you pray?

Yeah.

It's uh th what what better thing to do than to get to exercise the the relationship that we have with God.

Yes.

And uh through prayer.

Yes.

And you can think about all of the time that Jesus spent in prayer.

Yep.

And what that must have been like, and maybe we get to have a small taste of that.

Yeah, it's exactly what we get to have, because we're in him by the spirit.

And so that's exact it's exactly what we're participating in.

Uh that it's that same it's that same dynamic that we're that we're brought into because it's the same spirit, the spirit that rose Jesus from the dead is the same spirit who is indwelling us and interceding on our behalf, searching us and relaying it to the mind of God.

Um and so there's no hedging in your prayers.

It's it's uh we know that for those who love God, all things work together for good.

So you pray.

So what so then what do you ask for?

What do you pray for?

I think you you pray for what seems good to you.

Because of what what you couldn't be what else could you possibly know?

You pray for what seems good to you.

And when you don't know, when you can't even tell what seems good, then you pray that the Lord would do good.

In and you and you keep your eye out.

And I've appreciated the boldness of your prayers because of that perspective.

I think you said something like, well, pray for it.

He's he's that good.

Yeah.

And he loves you.

Yeah.

He'll probably give it to you.

Yeah, exactly.

Like he's probably he'll he'll probably give you give you that.

If not that, it'll probably be something better.

Uh that's what he's like.

Um, which is the these truths are the the the difficult thing about grasping the truths of Roman 8 is not that they're like um it's not that like you won't like them enough, it's that they're so wonderful, so so incredibly wonderful that it's like your mind rejects them.

Yeah.

Your spirit that still in the flesh fights against it.

Yes.

This couldn't possibly be this good.

Yes.

And so you'll you'll try and create little pathways to wriggle your way out of how comprehensively wonderful it is.

And you should think of those pathways of trying to wriggle out as you trying to rest back uh control and sovereignty over your own life that that clearly belongs to the Lord.

You should think of that as you setting yourself up in an adversarial position against the truths of God that He's clearly relayed.

I think here about the spirit uh also inspiring the words that we're reading and the Word of God as a whole, but also these particular words.

And that um in a sense, this spirit uh who intercedes for us with groanings is um i is, I think when we pray, we're being taught how to pray.

Right.

Uh so when we read the word we can learn the mind of the spirit.

Yes, that's right.

And we can be aided in our prayers.

Yes.

And that helps with an inward comfort, that helps with a turning from sin, it helps from it helps with changing in fundamental ways who we are, putting to death the the flesh and raising us practically in a greater experience of life in the Lord.

We think i what what you're saying made me think of um uh well now I'm not remembering if it's first Corinthians or 2 Corinthians, but I think it's 1 Corinthians.

Um for who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him?

So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the spirit of God.

Now we have received the spirit have received not the spirit of the world, but the spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

It's such a plain argument.

Who knows the mind of a man but the spirit of a man?

Good point.

Well, who knows the mind of God but the spirit of God?

Well, how could you know the mind of God?

Well, if you had the spirit of God, then you could know the mind of God.

Wow.

So that when we read the scriptures, by the Spirit's work in us, we can apprehend it's truth.

And then we can know the very mind of God towards us.

So then we read this and it's like, man, wouldn't that be nice if uh the spirit himself helped you know interceded on our behalf for and then like our prayers would just be like whatever God desired to happen for us.

Wouldn't that be great if it worked like that?

And it's like, yeah, but how could you even know if a thing like that were happening?

Well, the word says it.

Yeah.

And you have the spirit, and so you can just you can just read it and know that.

Which is it's it's so simple that you'll you'd overlook it.

Yeah.

Yeah, so it's wonderful.

And so it goes on and it's just starts to describe, okay, now that these these wonderful privileges are afforded to you.

Uh who are you that these wonderful privileges might be afforded to you?

And what's given to us is the the that you are the ones who have been chosen by God.

That's that's it.

You're the you're the ones who have been chosen, and so he gives these great privileges to you.

It calls us here saints.

Yes.

You want to say what that means?

Yes, it's um it's this it's the same, it's the word for holy.

So it's the word for for set apart.

It's that there's a so so consider that in relationship to God.

It's that there's a particular closeness or belonging that God's people have to him that is distinct from the ones who are not his people.

Just like when you're standing at the park and there's a bunch of kids running around, your eyes fix on yours.

You know, when you're watching the soccer game, your eyes fix on your kids.

I'm watching my kids.

You're watching you exactly.

You go you don't go to just see the game.

You go to see as competent as all of the players are.

Exactly.

You go to see your kids play.

And that's what the eyes of God are like towards his people.

There's this uh he says those are those are mine in a particular way.

That's a saint.

And that it's overwhelming that he thinks of us in that way, such as to say, have you seen what my son has done here?

Yeah, exactly.

When the when the kid, when we see our kids stumble around and start to walk for the first time, we're not uh we're we're not chastising them that they stumbled or that they, you know, oh come on, just put one foot in front of the other.

It's the opposite of that.

We're we're saying, yeah, this is wonderful.

This is great.

You're you're doing great.

I mean and yeah.

Uh my kids do all kinds of things that every kid does.

Yeah.

And when they do it, I love it so much.

And when other kids do it, I don't care.

Like it doesn't.

Like it, like I'm not just like sitting, like, like I'll just watch videos of like my daughter singing some absurd song she made up.

My YouTube algorithm isn't just like serving up terrible kids singing videos to me because they capture my attention not at all.

But when it's her, I'm just like I'll watch it five times in a day because my wife texts it to me in the morning.

Same.

And that's that's the the this well let's just I guess let's follow the text because we'll we'll get led right into this place.

It says, Um, and we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose, for those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

In those whom he predestined, he also called, and those whom he called, he also justified, and those whom he justified, he also glorified.

So there's this this is called the golden chain of redemption.

And it is once the first link has been activated that they all are they're all gonna happen.

And it begins with foreknew.

Yeah.

Those whom he foreknew.

What does that mean, Alan?

Does it it kind of sounds like maybe he's looking down the corridors of time to uh to see who chooses him?

No, I'm just kidding, I'm kidding.

Yeah, but that's a that's a there is an intuition though, where it's like, okay, I think I have a sense of that.

We like to try to think of it that way.

Yeah.

But when when the Bible talks about knowledge, uh there's a relational component to it.

Almost always.

Yes.

And so here he's there's a very much a part of the meaning of this is that he loved us and he loved us in the past, and in fact, all the way before the beginning of creation.

Yes.

So he knew us for sure, but of course there's a if we're talking about just cold knowledge, we could think, well, of course, he he knows everyone, he knows everything.

Yeah.

But that clearly that isn't what this is talking about, because he's this isn't a universal salvation.

Right.

So this is a relationship.

There's a sense in this of which he loved you in eternity past.

And so those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son, or predestined.

If you look that word up in Greek, it means pre-des.

Yeah, he set a plan.

He created a destiny for.

He said he set a destination.

This is your i and he did that in advance, beforehand, for the ones whom he loved, he set this destination for them beforehand.

Before they arrive to say yes or no or anything about the matter.

Well, James, how is this based on what I've done then?

Great question.

As you can see, it's not.

It's not.

It's it's completely the work of God from start to finish.

His his salvation is his setting his love on you.

Why?

Because he set his love on you.

Because he desired to set his love on you.

Why does he love you?

Because he loves you.

He's not looking through the corridors of time and finding who who would only love him.

Right.

That's not what he's doing.

That's not the order that's presented here.

No.

Which is a way to try and, you know, wriggle out of the the absoluteness of what he ha his control over this.

But it's also it's a strange, it's even that is just kicking the can down the road because he's the creator in the first place.

So then why didn't he just make everybody be the type of thing that would be the type of thing that loved him?

Like that's uh it's it doesn't it solves no problems and it neuters the the this unthinkably good news that he has of the passage.

Yeah, the clear focus of the passage, yeah.

Yeah, so predestined to be conformed to the image of his son in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

So that Christ is our oldest brother and that we are in the family of God.

I like that it says the image of his son here.

I think there's an importance in that we're not being turned into his son.

Right.

But this echoes back to the Genesis creation account.

We're made in the image of God.

Yep.

And this is a restoration of that relationship.

We can properly be image bearers.

Yes.

Yes, as we were intended to be from the beginning.

Yes, sin, it is not that sin entered the world and God said, Okay, throw out that image bearer plan.

Uh, because it looks like sin won this round, but let's go best two out of three.

It is that he comes in and he says, Sin is here, and my intentions for this world have not moved an inch.

And even that gospel, that first gospel account in Genesis three, that um where God uh kills an animal and clothes us with it and promises that uh the woman's seed will crush the head of the serpent.

And here we get to see a glorious culmination of that.

That where you see the start of that golden chain.

Yes.

And it's like these dominoes that that continue to work into eternity.

Yes.

All the way to glory.

Yes.

Yes.

So those who foreknew, he predestined.

Those whom he predestined, he also called.

And called is this is this is our in a sense, this is where like we start to experience something.

Because the call of God we we hear in the preaching of the word when your friend shared the gospel with you, when you and and you heard and understood the grace of God in truth.

The question is, why did you do that?

It's because you were called by God.

The Westminster Confession calls this an effectual calling.

Right.

Effectual calling is the work of God's Spirit, whereby convincing us of our sin and misery, enlightening our minds in the knowledge of Christ, and renewing our wills, He doth persuade and enable us to embrace Jesus Christ freely offered to us in the gospel.

So we are so this effectual calling is those you look on your life and you you realize sin.

And then your mind is enlightened to see Jesus Christ, and you're persuaded this is my only hope.

And then you you are then enabled to receive him as he's freely offered to you in the gospel.

We were talking before the recording about um about in uh about Jesus and the Proverbs.

And one of the Proverbs accounts of wisdom is that um uh that wisdom stands at the at the crossroads and calls.

Yes.

And calls to the simple to come in here, yep.

Um, and stop your foolishness and stop being simple.

Um and what what you're saying makes me think of Christ as wisdom um and the preacher who stands at the street corners uh preaching the gospel, which is freely and openly proclaimed.

I mean who who doesn't hear the gospel in the in that sense?

But but then what you're talking about in effectual calling is well, clearly most people don't really hear it.

Right.

But we um but we have.

Yes.

And that what's a what a what a puzzling thing.

It is a puzzling thing, but it's it it forces us to recognize that the reason that you hear and understand the grace of God and truth is because of the effectual calling of God.

It is not because of some reasoning that you did, which your neighbor who rejects the gospel didn't do or wasn't able to comprehend in some way.

That you can never you cannot point to yourself for your grasp of the gospel.

Uh you can only point to God for your grasp of the gospel.

Now our experience of that is often through argument and persuasion, you know, just like it says in the catechism, that he doth persuade and enable us to embrace Jesus Christ.

Because we're the type of people who are like that.

That's the type of thing you are.

Yeah.

And uh so so the Lord uses all of those means, but the reason that those means are effective is because of the call of God in our hearts.

And so what what is what is like an example of the call of God being effective?

Uh let there be light.

Light.

It's uh it's His word is always um creative.

Exactly.

Exactly.

So it's not like calling your dog, you know, uh or calling your two-year-old.

Isn't that partly because we talked about the type of thing that we are, but the type of thing that God is, is that he speaks and that defines the truth.

Yes.

That's exactly right.

And so when he speaks this about you, it that it is, then it is.

Uh that's the that's the type of thing he is.

So those whom he predestined, he also called, those whom he called, he also justified.

This is sort of what the book has been about.

And it that means that those whom he called, when we come by the effectual calling, we embrace uh Jesus Christ freely offered to us in the gospel.

And uh the Lord uh counts that as righteousness.

And so we are fully justified in his presence.

We have the uh we are we are cleansed from sin.

There is no condemnation under the law.

The law cannot speak anything against us because in Christ we receive the full Christ has fully satisfied the law on our behalf.

Positively by perfectly loving God and perfectly loving his neighbor, negatively by bearing the punishment uh of the the wrath of God, uh as though he had violated the law of God.

And so those are both requirements of the law.

One is a des they're both deserts, you know, not like what you deserve.

They're both what you deserve.

And they're uh uh but one is what he deserves is glory.

Is he perfectly satisfied with the law?

What he gets is punishment.

What we deserve is punishment.

But because of him, what we get is his glory.

That's the best story that has ever been told.

Yeah, it is.

And it's too much to look into.

You feel like you it's too bright.

It's too marvelous.

And so this is why we talk about it every Sunday.

Yes.

Yes, this is exactly.

And those whom he justified, he also glorified.

Wait a minute, that's in the past tense.

Yeah, it doesn't feel like it's happened yet.

Like I if I'm it if I'm shiny at all this morning, it's just I'm oily.

That that isn't uh That's not no glory.

No.

No.

The but it's it's placed in past tense.

Like we haven't we haven't we haven't received our glorified bodies at the resurrection.

Uh we can't, you know, stand in the presence of God in this type of, you know, uh and behold him.

We would die.

But this says that it's already happened.

Such is the certainty for those who God foreknew that you might as well say they're already glorified.

Because there's a sense in which this was already accomplished in eternity past.

It's already been done.

It's already accomplished.

Because it's a because it's his will.

And so what uh what else is what could be more true?

Appeal to something, appeal to a counterfactual from the will of God.

There's no there's no place you can go.

And this uh the sense of this, so this is also referred to as the order.

Of salvation or the Ordo Salutis in Latin.

And it's a it's this logical progression.

And of course, being good Reformed Presbyterians, we love our logic and we love to try to parse this into many places.

But I think there is some advantage to this, maybe even some great advantage to us really thinking about what is God doing here.

But this is this is a logical, these are logical consequences of God's predestination of us.

That He's doing all of these things.

And the fact that Paul points them out here in such succession is uh it helps us to see how marvelous it is.

Yeah.

And that the will of God is not going to be thwarted.

In fact, it basically it's effective to say it has not been thwarted.

We can look look into eternity in that sense.

Yep, that's right.

That's right.

So what then shall we say to these things?

That's my question for you, Alan.

Uh I would say here, if God is for us, who can be against us?

He who did not spare his own son, but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?

This is the conclusion.

Yeah.

This is the only thing that this is what you would what you would think from from all of this.

Yeah, this is one of those great it's the this is where Paul like preaches like a Puritan.

Puritans are always just like, think like this, think this instead, which is great.

And this is what he's doing here.

He's like, okay, so then you should think like this.

If God is for us, who can be against us?

Just settle in on that for a second.

If God is for us, who can be against us?

Yeah, who cares?

Yeah.

Who's against us?

There isn't any possible uh antithesis to that.

No.

No.

And then oh well, what it what is then what is it what is God's disposition towards us?

Like what makes him so trustworthy towards us?

You know, what what makes us say that we want to be on his side?

His grace.

He who did not spare his own son, but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?

It's just this cutoff.

Like the like life is full of uh just uh uh events that are so heartbreaking and so horrible that we can't we don't have categories for them.

And things that are so wonderful that fall apart.

And is so the question is, well then it does this mean that God has rejected me?

Does this mean that he I'm not in his love?

And this is evidence of me not being in his love.

Because look at this series of unfortunate events.

And we would say, but he didn't spare his son.

So it can't mean that.

It can't mean that he's rejected me.

It can't mean that I'm outside of his love, it can't mean that he's here to steal and kill and destroy.

It can't mean that.

Whatever is this problem of pain, it can't be such a thing that he hasn't entered into it himself.

It can't be.

Because the sun has come.

And so how will then how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?

So that this m this he paid the price, he m he will get what he bought on our behalf.

This brings up here uh another part of the order of salvation, which logically is that we're adopted.

Right.

Which I think is at least experientially, this is the most marvelous part of God's salvation.

Yeah.

To be considered a son of God.

How can how can that be?

It's just it seems too wonderful to think about Christ's Christ's act on our behalf, on my behalf, when we personalize that, when we take that in, is to uh result in our adoption so that now we're heirs.

Now we have these awesome promises in in God, in Christ, because now we're brought from outside of Christ to now we're we're into Christ.

There's a sense in which um the word that's often used for in Paul's writing in Christ is um is into.

We're now we're now brought from outside to inside, inside of the family of God.

Yeah.

And that that just it's too marvelous to wrap your head around.

Yeah, it is.

It will take an eternity to grasp.

Yeah.

What's been purchased for us?

Praise be to God.

Who shall bring any charge against God's elect?

It is God who justifies.

Who is to condemn?

Christ Jesus is the one who died more than that, who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

We'll we'll we'll stop there.

Who shall bring a charge against God's elect?

It is God who justifies.

So yeah.

This is this is daring.

It is daring.

This is uh this is triumphant.

Yeah, it is, is the tone that comes across here.

Yeah.

Who shall bring a charge against God's elect?

Like, go ahead.

Yeah.

Bring it if you dare.

God's the one who justifies.

Yeah.

So it so you so Satan comes to accuse you before God.

And the response is, would you bring a charge against God's elect?

Do you know who justified this person?

God justified this person.

So it's it it's useless.

Throw it out.

Throw it out.

Oh, we we this is part of like you you have to grasp this as a Christian because you're meant to live from this type of freedom from the accusations of Satan because Christ purchased it.

He he did it.

And we we uh we cannot be condemned.

We cannot be condemned.

So much that it would be foolish to bring any charge.

Right.

Any accusation is ridiculous.

Right.

Right.

So what could pry you out of his hands?

Who Christ Jesus is the one who died.

Yeah, what justifies you?

Christ Jesus is the one who died on my behalf.

More than that, who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Here we see that intercession.

Yes.

And we see that he's risen in power.

Yes.

And that's more than that he died.

It's more than that he died.

Yeah.

Exactly.

So who shall separate us from the love of Christ?

And then here's this list.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?

Shall tribulation?

So you experience terrible things that happen in your life, and you might consider I'm outside of the love of God.

Or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword.

As it is written, for your sake we are being killed all the day long.

We are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.

No.

No is the answer to that.

In all these things, we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

In the persecutions.

In the persecutions, you are a conqueror.

No, a super conqueror.

Exactly, yeah, like a mega conqueror.

Yeah, exactly.

More than a conqueror.

What what is that?

I don't even know what that means.

More than a conqueror.

Through uh, but this says but I do know that in the Greek it says something like upo conqueror.

Yeah, like hype, like over, above, or yeah.

Conqueror.

And there's a uh in re remember the question.

What shall separate us from the love of Christ?

He's just listing the most powerful things that a human can experience, all the pressures that we can experience.

He's saying, no.

What everyone is experiencing.

What everyone is experiencing.

In those, you're a conqueror.

So different.

So different.

Then the experience of this pain is must be evidence that I'm outside of the love of God.

Our whole perspective changes in this, being in Christ, it changes everything, even though on the surface, looking at this, it seems like maybe it doesn't change things.

Because for us, we can look to these persecutions, these distresses, these um these heartaches, as uh God is working these things for our good.

Um and where otherwise we might despair.

Right.

Where otherwise we see despair all all around us.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's the same things.

Yeah.

Seeing this through the lens of Christ's salvation, it really changes all of this.

Yeah, it does.

It does.

It changes your perspective on the whole on all of life.

All of life.

He says, For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nothing.

Nothing can separate you from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You think, yeah, but of course my sin.

Well, don't you don't you remember where this story began?

Don't you remember that it's those whom he justified?

Doesn't he use even our sin to accomplish his will in Christ?

Yes.

And you can't be you can't be pulled from his love.

Those who are in his love cannot be pulled from his love.

It cannot happen.

And Paul says here that he is sure.

It's comforting to me to see uh evidence of his surety.

Yeah, just well, we we think about he he knew that he was undergoing persecution and he was going to be persecuted to death.

Yes.

Uh he knew about this and wrote about it.

And he started before he became a Christian.

He started in this high exalted place, a Pharisee of Pharisees.

Yeah.

Uh everyone looked up to him.

He had excellent pedigree and training.

Uh he could talk about his position uh by birth, even a citizen of Rome.

Yep.

Um and he very clearly uh considered all of that as rubbish.

Right.

Right.

And knew that he was going to die for the gospel.

Yes.

But he but he considered that as nothing really to be accounted for.

That this is and if we have that perspective, how is any of this but momentary light affliction?

If we think about this thousands of years from now, in glory, which is so sure that it's mentioned here in the past tense.

Yeah.

Of course this is going to be thought of as momentary and light affliction.

Yeah.

Even even if it means death.

Yes.

In the moment, it's very hard for us to take that perspective because pain is such a thing that grabs your attention.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you just want it gone.

Which is why it's important for us to think about this now.

Yeah.

It's um this, I think, is partly intended to be uh a comfort to us that we can in some sense take that perspective of glory even now.

Yes.

When we have this um we have a taste of glory.

Yep.

Maybe um we talked about this in Bible study um this past week, but uh there's a sense of many, perhaps all of the promises in Christ.

There's a sense of the already, but not yet.

Yep.

Um you want to talk about what that, maybe a little bit about what that's like?

Um you know, when we look through maybe even this order of salvation, the golden chain that we're talking about here, there's this sense of we have a taste of uh of these truths, and some more than others, and glorification, I suppose, is what we most look forward to and don't really experience very much of here.

Yeah.

But I think if you uh if you really meditate on this passage, isn't there a isn't there a taste of that glory?

Just if you really had that perspective, that if we use Paul as an example, um isn't it glorious what Paul is doing here?

Yes, so the what the way that we participate it, that with the the way that we participate in that glory is in hope.

And hope is the hope is the w the the thing we have that we can use to participate in that glory.

Uh we we hope for it.

Who hopes for what he already sees?

But with patience, we wait.

And so there's a you can have this patience and endurance with joy for how we participate in this life, because there's the certainty of these promises, the effective work of the spirit in our hearts now, but it's not fully realized yet.

But we because the first fruits of the spirit are in us, like a deposit, we know that it will be fully paid.

And it will it will come to full uh realization.

Like a down payment of promise.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's right.

So it it will the the deal's gonna go through.

The money's gone hard.

And that's uh uh so so you're in this place, and it's uh it's like so how do I interpret my life and the pains and the difficulties that I'm in?

This doesn't solve every problem for you.

But here's something that you can know and you must know in the midst of it.

There's nothing that can happen to you that will separate you from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

You can know that.

You can know it.

Yeah.

And all you're wriggling out of it is foolishness.

It's like fighting against God.

I think if you sit in this passage and meditate on it, um, you get to experience the pain, the the fighting of the flesh against this.

Yes.

And then just just keep going.

Just sit with it and think, is there No, this is really true.

Yeah.

It's as good as it seems.

Aaron Ross Powell, I think that's why it's so transformative.

Yes.

It is once you once you have gone through that struggle of the the objections that the flesh might raise against this.

Yes, which is really what verses 31 till the end, that's what it's doing.

It's just like uh if God is for us, who can be against us?

Yeah.

He who did not spare his own son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him freely give us all things?

It's giving you the things to say to your flesh.

To say to Satan.

Is there any possible answer against that?

No.

So you have to then move on and then think, well, is what about what about angels?

What about what about things far more powerful than me?

Yeah.

Are they more powerful than God?

What about things present or things to come?

Yeah.

That's pretty comprehensive.

It's pretty comprehensive.

So I think we'll go ahead and wrap up here, but just want to commend to people just this to just exactly what you're encouraging people to do.

Meditate on this passage.

Go, go let your f flesh wrestle against this and see how it can stand up to these arguments of what you should say to these things.

That there's nothing that can separate you from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

You can know that.

You can know that.

It's done.

It's done.

Therefore, we can rest in him.

Yep.

And we can go about the business of doing what we now want to do, which isn't that serving him.

Yes.

And isn't that now freeing and not a burden?

Yes.

Yes.

Well, thanks for joining us for this inaugural episode of the Redemption Church Podcast.

Hope this is encouraging.

And next time we'll jump back in with Romans 9.

Thanks, Alan.

Oh, thank you.

This is a joy.

Yeah, for me too.

For me too.

Okay.

See you all soon.

Goodbye.