Back from Bratislava | RCD Podcast

Yeah, this is my favorite thing.

So as we were there, we got to see this idea of what became known as the ecosystem really evolve.

And so I talked about these guys like Milan and Daniel, who started this initial business.

Then they're taking the profits and investing it into other businesses or into schools.

They're helping build an underground church, a literal underground, you like go downstairs to get into it under communism.

Um, but they're they're starting to think about like how do we, as we seek the welfare of our city, we want to really be seeking the welfare of our families and of children.

And how do we do that?

We do it by providing spaces where they can flourish.

Right.

And I'm Carolyn Kellum.

And this is the Redemption Church Denver Podcast with our special guest today, who you just heard her voice, Carolyn Kellum.

The Kellums, Bo and Carolyn, are back from Bratislava.

And so we are kicking off this year of the Redemption Church Denver podcast with Carolyn Kellum's return, so that we can hear how God has been working in the lives of the Kellums and the fruitfulness of their time over there and the insights that they've gained.

This was something that our their project over there was something that our church got to partner with financially, and it's so exciting to have them back here in Denver.

Um, but it's also exciting to get to hear all that the Lord has been doing uh in them during their time away serving in Bratislava.

So before we jump into that, Carolyn, this episode of the podcast is brought to you by the upcoming Redemption Church Denver Women's Night.

The women's night will be on Friday, February 6th, from 6:30 to 9 p.m., hosted by our women's director, Liz Carr.

And the topic that will be covered at this first women's night of 2026 is what is God's purpose for my home?

God's purpose for my home.

This is a wonderful topic to explore together.

As the women of Redemption Church, um, our homes are the places of our primary ministry to our families, and this is a uh wonderful chance to explore that topic through scripture together.

Also, this episode of the podcast is brought to you by the Redemption Church Denver Book Club.

Now, the book club is covering, uh we'll be meeting on February 9th from 7 to 8:30.

And uh this time in the book club, we are covering Taking Hold of God, which is a book about the prayers of the Puritans.

It's about the prayer lives of the Puritans.

So if you are interested in growing in prayer this year, 2026, then grab a copy of that book and meet us together to discuss and encourage one another in prayer.

Uh also, now is uh sign-up time for our Bible studies.

I'm particularly excited about 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John as books to cover in Bible studies this year.

We've got uh two men's studies, two women's studies, two couples it slash anyone's studies, and uh one youth study.

So hopefully there's a space where you uh that fits your schedule to meet every other week and move through the scriptures together in community with uh uh covering first, second, and third John.

Thanks to our sponsors.

Carolyn, without these sponsors, this show would no we'd be not able to get off the ground.

But instead, we're out of the hamburgers into the stakes, if you know what I mean.

We're here today.

We're here today.

That's right.

All thanks to them.

And Carolyn, you're here today.

You're not in Bratislava anymore.

Not in Bratislava anymore.

Here in Denver.

You're here in Denver.

So tell us uh where where is Bratislava?

Yeah, so Bratislava is in Slovakia, which is in Central Europe.

Uh-huh.

And a lot of people say Eastern Europe, which would really upset the Slovaks.

So it's very much Central Europe.

Okay.

I'll keep that in mind.

Yeah.

Kind of like how Colorado is the West.

Exactly.

We're not Central.

Not Central America.

Well, that's different entirely.

But exactly.

That's what it would sound like to their ears.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So um Slovakia is in Central Europe.

It borders seven countries, but it's just east of um Austria, south of Poland, it's west of Ukraine.

So that helps kind of position it on a map, hopefully a little bit for you.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

What uh uh can you tell the story sort of briefly of how you and Bo ended up moving to Slovakia for 18 months?

Yeah, so I have been on staff with the Navigators for a decade now, which is kind of crazy.

That is kind of crazy.

And I have been involved with the collegiate ministry of the navigators, I've done some headquarters ministry, I've been part of leadership teams for our overseas work.

And uh a couple years ago, I was graduating with my master's degree in organizational leadership and trying to figure out like what's next.

Do I want to stay in this nonprofit world?

Do I want to move into the for-profit world?

And I really got excited about this idea of business consulting.

And so I um, yeah, uh a colleague I met up with at a conference.

Uh, we'll call him David Erickson.

He'll become important later in this podcast.

But um, David Erickson and I met, and we he just started hearing some of what I was processing.

He himself has started a business as mission, and he, as I was sharing this idea of like, what if I did some kind of business consulting for the kingdom, uh, business as mission focused?

Yeah.

He was asking, like, have you ever heard about what they're doing in Bratislava?

And at the time I knew that they had some Christian schools there, but that was all I was really familiar with.

Okay.

And so he got me connected to um this guy, Marek, who is in Bratislava, and Marek connected me to uh this whole team of people that were at the what they call the Agatha Center for Entrepreneurship.

Okay.

It's a whole team of business consultants and coaches who help entrepreneurs and uh small businesses start, grow.

Um, they do all sorts of coaching and training.

And so, in that whole process of meeting them, they extended an invitation for me to come and join their team for a year.

And we ended up saying yes.

The Lord opened a ton of doors.

Can you tell one of the stories of one of the doors opening on your way to Bratislava?

Because here's the here's the pastoral perspective on this.

Sounds like this really cool thing, this great opportunity, and I want Bo and Carolyn here in the church.

I don't want you guys to leave.

So I'm like, I feel like every conversation we had, I'm like pressure testing it to like see if I can be like, why don't you just stay in Denver?

And you know, you guys go go along with us what we got going at R C D.

And then I would hear like a next story of like what that was just like plainly like, wow, the Lord's doing something here.

And I was like, okay, I need to just get out of the way.

So it was Cheryl, tell about like your housing.

Yeah.

So we were on this vision trip in the spring of 2024 visiting Bratislava, and to be honest, we kind of went into that trip being like, hmm, we're gonna make the most of this.

Probably won't go.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, but we're gonna make the most of the trip, we'll see what it's about.

And day one, we fell in love with the city.

Day two, we fell in love with the people, day three.

I kind of fell in love with the work, and so it was almost this like, oh no, this might actually be happening.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, what are we getting into?

This is a little nerve-wracking.

So uh we we didn't make an official decision while we were there, but we were staying at this Airbnb, and the Airbnb host messaged us uh out of nowhere one day, and she was like, Hey, I hope you're enjoying your stay.

This is really random, but on your check-in, you had marked that you were um you're visiting here in Bratislava for work.

What can you tell me more about that?

I'm really curious.

Usually Slovaks go to America for work, but you're an American, you're here, what's going on?

So I explained a little bit of the perspective, and she was like, Okay, yeah, this is really random.

I don't even know why I'm asking this, but I just feel like I need to ask you, would you ever want to live here long term?

And I was like, Well, funny you should ask.

Like, I've just been given this offer here.

I don't know yet, but I'll keep this in mind for sure.

And it's this prime location.

Um, so it was just like a crazy story where she was like, I don't know why I'm asking this, but I just feel like I'm prompted to.

And once we made the decision to go, um, we were thinking, okay, we have this housing lined up, and then got a call from someone on the Agatha team where I would be working.

They said, Hey, like, we actually want to provide your housing for you.

Um, cover it.

So uh we're just throwing that out there for you.

Like, you don't you don't need to worry about housing.

Um, and so yeah, we ended up we owned a home here in Denver, but uh we're able to then rent that out and have our rent be taken care of for us in Bratislava.

Yeah, it was I remember just thinking like, oh, that's insane.

Yeah.

There's just so many uh there were many things like that where it's just like, wow, this is just like falling into place.

There's like it has this energy in it that you've got to be willing to follow.

And uh so there's this alignment of what you are just like getting trained in and exposed to, getting a vision for, and this sort of like business consulting, this a connection with your current work of businesses uh in the navigators and this business's mission opportunity, and there's a unique opportunity to blend those things in Bratislava.

Why it is so can you tell us a little bit about like the uh what what that looked like, I guess, upon arriving, of like what is the what does businesses mission mean in Bratislava?

What's the history of that there?

And uh then I'd love to hear how, you know, it knowing the story a bit, how this thing that initially pulled you in to work there uh the Lord had something else that was that was perhaps even more exciting.

Yeah.

Um uh as you as you got pulled in, sort of beyond the work, uh the work itself.

So I'd love to hear that sort of story.

So first let's start off with like what was the what does business admission look like in Bratislava?

Yeah, so uh Bratislava was well, Slovakia as a whole was under communism uh post-World War II.

And there was this core group of men I'll talk a little more about in a bit, but they had studied outside of Slovakia and outside of the communist parts of Europe in university, and they had chances to encounter Jesus and be trained by the navigators.

Okay.

So then they come back to Slovakia and they have this heart for making disciples, reading scripture.

They've been really impacted and they want to impact others that same way.

Yep.

But stuff like we got.

Exactly.

Yeah, um, or or in even church stuff.

Like they just get this vision of like, man, I want to see people impacted for Christ.

Yeah, totally.

So they this one guy, Milan, uh Which wouldn't have been possible in a a communist country.

Yeah, not at all.

So that yeah, that's the actually we asked Milan once, like, tell us a little bit about like being a Christian under communism.

It was illegal and you couldn't you couldn't do it.

And he said, Well, you could do it, it just cost you something.

Yeah.

And that's just really stuck with us, like this idea that of course you can still be a Christian.

It's just really gonna cost you to be a Christian in communism.

Right.

So the so Milan's trying to lead a Bible study that models what he was involved with at university, but he realizes like no guys are showing up, people are busy during the workday.

Um, and so they he just can't follow the same model that he experienced at university.

Right.

So he has this idea along with his friend Daniel, and they decide, like, well, all of the people we want to be reading scripture with and impacting for Christ are at jobs and the workplace.

So what if we just went into the workplace?

Yeah.

And under communism, uh, the Slovaks all joke that communism is where the people pretended to work and the government pretended to pay them.

Yeah, it's a good communist joke.

Yeah, it's good.

So um the their idea was like if we did business well under communism, it's gonna force some questions.

Oh, yeah.

Because no one's doing business well under communism.

Why would you?

Why would you?

Everyone's just pretending.

Wow.

And so they decide to start this business, and in the same way that like in Old Testament times when they built the temple, everyone contributed to the temple so that people would have a place to go and interact with Christ.

Well, with God.

Yeah.

Um, and today we are all the temples of the Holy Spirit.

We have Christ dwelling within us.

And so the idea being like in a workplace, we kind of become these little temples that people get to bump into and interact with Jesus.

Right.

As they interact with us.

So that really set the kind of vision for what they were hoping to see.

So they start this business called For Business Excellence, FBE, and um it's a training center for other businesses.

They get one of their first big contracts is with Volkswagen.

Uh-huh.

And they're training, they're doing corporate trainings.

Automotive manufacturing in the world.

Yeah, the most in the world, actually, most per capita is in Slovakia, automotive manufacturing.

Yep.

So look at that.

Yeah.

So Volkswagen is one of their first big clients.

They're doing corporate trainings for them, and they really just see the Lord's favor on this business.

Um, they're profitable, they're successful.

Of course, there's challenges with any business.

But when you look at it over a from a wide perspective, it's a really successful business.

Yeah, yeah, cool.

And so they're taking their profits and they're investing it into like these other endeavors.

Uh-huh.

Um what if we start new businesses?

What if we started some schools?

What if we like we just really invest in this community that we want to see flourish?

We want to seek the welfare of our city.

And so we want to do that through business.

So that's kind of the origins of it.

And then I got involved uh with another consulting business, the Agatha Center, that was focused really on entrepreneurs and entrepreneurship.

Uh-huh.

So kind of the earliest stages of business, and then FBE and some of the other businesses in the ecosystem would be focused more on once a corporation or a company is further down the road.

Cool.

Yeah.

Cool.

So there's this, so there's this like sort of almost like a blank canvas of uh uh like no Christian influence, basically.

Right.

And some guys that get uh the gospel, their lives are changed, and they're standing back and they're looking at the their home, they're like, well, how do we make this connect?

They try the ways that they received it.

It's like that's not that doesn't work here.

And see this sort of like asymmetry of like really seeking to like honor God first in their work and how that becomes a standout in um uh a regime that's not I guess it wasn't communist then, but it was uh just out of communism.

Oh, when they started, it was in communism.

It was in communism, okay.

Wow.

Yeah, that's insane.

Slovakia is a historically very Catholic country that still really influences a lot of things.

So there's some you would see some of that, they would see some of that influence, but they really were missing this personal interaction with Christ.

And that's what these founding guys experienced when they were at university.

Yeah.

Like this personal aspect of walking with Jesus.

And so, yeah, still under communism, but they're like, how can we really like I want my my own people to experience the love of Christ?

Yeah, very cool.

So you come in and you're working with the uh another center that sounds similar to the initial uh consulting group that they had founded, uh, but sort of a spin-off more uh focused on entrepreneurs, small businesses, that sort of thing.

Yep.

And uh you're doing that work, and I'm sure that has its particular challenges for uh because those are very complicated problems.

And while you're doing that, it talk about sort of like the broader vision that you were exposed to.

Yeah.

It's one thing I really want our church to get to hear.

Yeah, this is my favorite thing.

So as we were there, we got to see this idea of what became known as the ecosystem really evolve.

And so I talked about these guys like Milan and Daniel, who started this initial business, then they're taking the profits and investing it into other businesses or into schools.

They're helping build an underground church, a literal underground, you like go downstairs to get into it under communism.

Um, but they're they're starting to think about like how do we, as we seek the welfare of our city, we want to really be seeking the welfare of our families and of children.

And how do we do that?

We do it by providing spaces where they can flourish.

Right.

And so um eventually Slovakia comes out of communism in uh the Velvet Revolution.

You should learn about that.

It's fascinating.

Um yeah, so everyone listening, you can learn about that.

Um sounds like the name of a prince album.

Yeah, it's similar.

Yeah, similar concept.

Okay.

Yeah.

So uh they start this school, and um they it's the C um the Narnia School, elementary school.

Which It's called the Narnia School.

It's called the Narnia School, which I think is adorable.

We love that here.

Yeah.

Big fans we're we're big fans of Narnia on this show.

For sure.

Yeah.

And their their logo is a little lamppost.

Great.

Wow, that's so fun.

Yeah.

Um, so they start this elementary school.

They eventually start a high school because the kids are growing up, and these are um schools that are founded by Christians.

They're private schools, but they're open to anybody.

Yeah.

And so they start to see like, wow, we're making actually a lot of public impact by this.

These are the best schools in all of Slovakia.

Yeah.

The president is sending her children to these schools.

Whoa.

Yeah.

It just like that's what it looks like when you seek the welfare of your city and do it with excellence, is you gain influence.

Yeah.

So as they have these schools, they're thinking, like, okay, well, we need teachers and uh we need teachers that are really well qualified.

So let's get some uh training materials.

Let's, well, the best teaching training materials we can find are printed in English.

Most of our teachers are Slovak native speakers, and so what if we started a printing company who that could translate those books and then print them in Slovak?

And then now they have textbooks for these teachers, but they want to recruit more, and so they start uh working with a college to start a teacher's college in Bratislava.

And it's this thing that just really organically happens, like as they're seeking the welfare of their city, there's they're identifying needs of that city and then doing whatever they can to meet those needs.

And they're very fundamental needs.

Absolutely.

Of like our children need to learn and they need to.

Be educated and equipped, especially in the ways of the of Scripture, and uh like a true education grounded in the Lord.

And then that that need uh exposes it exposed them to other problems, but they're like more good problems.

Exactly.

It's such a cool story because they're they're seeing these things and they're seeing these problems, and the it these guys had the sense of like, oh, those are my problems.

Exactly.

Because those are my kids' problems, and that's my city's problems.

And so I have to own those because the government's not gonna address it.

Totally.

The and so it's up to the people, and when you start looking around, it's kind of like, well, who who's gonna solve all these problems?

And all of a sudden you have to look in a mirror and say, like, I think I need to address this.

Yeah.

So yeah, today in the what we now know as the ecosystem in Bratislava, there's about three dozen businesses.

Um, everything from these schools and consulting companies, churches, there's gyms and bookstores and coffee shops and um nonprofits, there's a foster and adoption agency.

It because all of these people just started to catch a vision.

Um, and as they had encounters with Christ themselves, they became changed and thought, like, well, how can I also impact others?

I can do it.

I have this skill, I can help meet the need of certain people.

Um, and so I'm gonna do that.

I'm gonna use the gifts the Lord has given me.

I'm gonna meet this need that's in our city.

And in doing so, I will seek the flourishing of my city.

I'll seek the welfare of my city.

So, as I was working at the Agatha Center, as I was working with clients, this ecosystem project became uh more forefront.

Yeah.

People were asking a lot of questions of like, can this be replicated?

Yeah.

Uh what's happening in Bratislava?

Because now we're like 30 years into this, them doing this or more?

Uh by the time I was there, it's actually 50 years.

50 years, okay.

Yeah.

So yeah, uh like 75 is when most of this started.

Yeah, yeah.

So it's like you it's it's something that you can you can see as you're looking back at it.

It's like, look at how this developed.

What did it mean that this developed?

Because this place is very different than it otherwise would have been.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And I think that's the beauty of getting to come in 50 years later, is I get to see a 30,000-foot view of what these faithful people had done.

Yep.

Um, by just being faithful and showing up and seeking the welfare of their city and of children.

And yeah, like believing that there could be beauty in the midst of really non-beautiful things happening in their country.

Yeah, totally.

So yeah, that's so this so this vision, so you sort of see it with these sort of fresh eyes, and you're articulating in this way, and starts to take the starts to take the forefront of your time there.

Exactly.

So what does that look like?

Yeah.

So I started working really closely with the guy I mentioned, Madek, Madik Marcush, and um another guy we'll call David Erickson, who works with a sensitive people group in Asia.

Um, so that's his pseudonym.

Cool.

But we'll like Dionysus the Uropa guide or whatever.

Yeah, exactly.

Pseudonyms.

Yeah.

I like pseudonyms.

It's very cool.

So I start working with them.

Poor Richard.

Exactly.

Almanac fame.

Yeah.

It's also a good pseudonym.

Mark Twain.

Mark Twain, another good pseudonym.

There's a lot of something to be said for pseudonyms.

This is actually why.

Pluribus or Publius, the guy who wrote the um Federalist Papers.

Plurbus.

Plurbus, yeah.

Another good pseudonym.

This is actually why people are listening to this podcast.

For a list of pseudonyms.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that's why.

For us to free associate pseudonyms.

That's right.

You're welcome, listeners.

Yeah.

So David Erickson.

Works with a sensitive people group in Asia.

And he and tell us about him.

Yeah.

So he started, he also started a businesses mission, a really successful uh tourism business that um it's like ecotourism.

And so there uh in the businesses mission world, we talk a lot about the triple bottom line.

So in business, in all of business, you everyone has a bottom line number.

That's like, are you profitable or are you not?

When all is said and done, are you making money?

Are you losing money?

But in business's mission, we really care about three bottom lines.

Of course, we hope that it's profitable, but we also uh hope that there's a people impact um and like a societal impact, uh-huh, and then a spiritual impact as well.

And so this ecotourism business is really focused on all of all three of those happening.

And yeah, he's given his whole life to that.

Raise started and raised his family there with um some of his colleagues in this tourism business.

And yeah, it's just it's amazing what the Lord has done.

And so in his context, he's also worked with a handful of believers there to start their own ecosystem.

Uh-huh.

Um, because it's kind of this idea of like finds like that.

You find people who are doing who care about the same thing as you, and all of a sudden it's kind of like all the extra sort of drifts away, and you're like, man, we really agree on some few fundamental things.

We care, we believe that Jesus is Lord, that he died for our sins, and he's worthy of giving our lives to, and that our work should honor him.

Yeah.

And so we're just gonna band together under the unity of that, and we're gonna seek the welfare of this community to that end.

Yeah, I I uh have heard uh shared risk uh creates unity and removes envy.

Don't you like that?

Yeah, that's great.

It re it when you risk things together, then it it creates unity and removes envy.

I think that's awesome.

Yeah, that's great.

Yeah.

But that it reminded me of what you're describing.

Yeah, exactly.

So I start working really closely with Marik and with David, and um people are asking a lot of questions, like this ecosystem idea, is it something that can be replicated?

Is it something that can only happen in like former communist countries or in countries that aren't developed?

Um, and the answer to that is no, it's not it can't only exist in those places.

But people are like, okay, great, then how do we do it?

What is it about?

And so the three of us set out um figuring out like what is this, what is this ecosystem framework?

What how does it develop?

How does it grow?

How are communities impacted?

And I came into the project after it had been going on for about a year.

So I a lot of the heavy lifting had been done by those guys and by Matik uh with partnership with Wheaton College.

So he and uh one of his colleagues, Jano Grix, another Slovak, had developed this framework for ecosystem of figuring out kind of like what are the key ingredients that go into making an ecosystem?

How does it develop?

Um and that was sort of the starting point I came in on.

And then from there, we were able to figure out okay, what does it take at each of these phases to help really see flourishing and thriving?

And um fast forward, my time working on this project culminated in us writing a book together about this topic.

And it will be the final publication, Lord willing, will be the end of this summer or early fall 2026.

Very exciting.

Yeah.

So we had a conference in November of 2025 that was all about this idea of ecosystems, um, talking through the book, talking through the framework of ecosystems.

And yeah, that was kind of the culmination.

So we're still working on a few final things for it.

Um, we're working on one more case study right now that we're hoping to get next month, and then some conclusions and recommendations that will tie up the book.

I love the it's it's it's such a cool story because you get to come into a place with fresh eyes and discover uh uh a work that's sort of been organically happening for 50 years.

And then get you get to like see it give a name to it and see like, hey, this was just sort of bare barren soil, yeah.

And now it's like growing, it's growing here.

And you get like this snapshot of the uh truth that I think we'd all affirm that like the the gospel produces life and flourishing.

Yeah.

And that when people get it, then there's life and flourishing that comes out of these barren places, and we can we can name it and we can look at it, and you can see that it happens.

It's like seeds that get planted in the ground, and then they grow up and it's like, hey, cool, look, there's plants and stuff there, fruitfulness.

Yeah, exactly.

And I I think that's one of my favorite things about this project, and that getting to see it in action, but then study some of the biblical principles behind it.

As we worked on this um ecosystem framework and the book, we developed this um biblical guidelines or biblical framing for this.

And uh this is gonna feel like a tangent for a second, but I promise it'll come back to what you said.

Cool.

But um the idea is that in for the ecosystem, these men who really did, they were like the first ones through the wall.

They got bloody doing the work to cultivate that land so that they could see the flourishing, um, really had this idea of like our relationship to God is not just bipolar in the sense of like it's just us and God, but it actually exists in a third pole, if you will, um, which is the land and the space that we exist in.

We exist in a real place on a real earth that was really created by our real God.

And um Walter Brugeman talks about this, actually.

He says, um the land is central, if not the central theme of biblical faith.

He says conventional Christianity has wanted always to talk about God or Yahweh and neglect the land.

Conversely, secular humanism always wants to talk of the land and never of Yahweh.

And so, us as Christians, most of us live in both worlds and settle for this sort of uneasy schizophrenia, he calls it.

He says it's schizophrenia because we don't know what else to do, and it's uneasy because we know better.

But it no longer will do to talk about Yahweh and his people, but we must speak about Yahweh and his people living in the land.

And so that's really good.

Isn't that amazing?

Yes, that's very good.

And so very good.

This this idea Yeah, yeah, keep you're cooking, keep going.

So, this idea is that when God first created the earth, he put Adam and Eve in the garden.

That was the real place, the real land, and he was God who walked with them.

So it's this try thing.

Right.

God, his people in the land.

And then we see in eternity, uh, the Lord is so kind to us that he gives us this final picture.

We get to know how it ends.

And we see this final picture of the Lord Jesus as the panto creator and the resurrected people of God that exist within a new creation.

And it's a physical creation, it's not some like imaginary ethereal thing, but all of the prophets tell us it's a physical place that we will live.

And so the question kind of becomes like, what is this in between?

Because right now we who are in Christ are the church, we have the spirit of God, but the schizophrenia that we have where like we know there is a space, but we've kind of ignored it, yes, that really becomes the question.

And we see in scripture, um, it was like God or Yahweh with the people of Israel in the land of Canaan as exiles.

And we today are also exiles.

Um, but it's just this question of like, what is the land?

And so this is my favorite thing to study, my favorite thing to learn about, and not my favorite thing to talk about as it relates to this project, because um, there's this concept called peculium in the Roman law.

And peculium is a legal term that uh had to deal with land management.

So when uh in scripture, it's important to know that adoption and um heirs inheritance were legal terms, um, not always just this, like how we would maybe associate it today of like of course it still mattered for families, but these are really legal terms.

Right.

And so peculium becomes important because a father would have uh maybe a great vast amount of land or um big estate, a huge estate, and maybe he would have like a villa in Rome and a property in uh what's now Bratislava, and he would have one in Athens.

And so you have this estate that's massive and sprawls the whole empire.

And he's responsible for that.

At the end of the day, it's on him.

But as his children grow up and his oldest son will become the heir to this estate one day, the father can practice peculium, which is he can give this son one of these pieces of land an estate that the son can practice cultivating it.

Right.

But the father is still the legal owner of that land.

If the land is not stewarded well, then that the debt falls on the father.

If the land is stewarded really well and becomes profitable, um, you know, produces good fruit, the animals multiply, then that also belongs to the father.

But one day when the son becomes the proper heir, he's now the heir to that.

Right.

The same is true for us today, because in Christ we're all sons, we are rightful heirs of the kingdom of God that's been promised to us.

Right.

And so today, that big question mark of like what is the land for us today, is our work and it's what we do day to day.

And we get a chance to really practice.

We know that in the kingdom of God we'll have work.

This is something that was created before the fall.

It's a good thing.

And so while we're here on earth, we get to practice peculium.

We get to, we have this land that's been given to us to steward.

Right.

We get to cultivate it, we feed the animals, we tend to what's needed, we tend to our flocks and the land.

Um, most of us aren't farmers, but yeah, yeah, but we get the analogy.

The analogy sticks.

And if we screw up, it's okay because, well, you know, relative, it's okay because our father covers the debts.

He covers the debts.

Yeah.

And that's why Christ came, was to cover our debts.

But when we steward it well and we see profit in the land that we're cultivating, we also are rightful heirs to that one day.

And so that's why our work really matters.

And I could talk about this forever, I feel like, because we we are we are proper heirs.

Our work really matters because it's happening in a real space and time that will one day also be really our inheritance when Christ comes to redeem all things to himself.

Yeah, I think that's such a good image.

That peculiar image is an awesome image.

Yeah.

It's an awesome image.

And I think it just gives us freedom to like step out and trust the Lord and say, like, man, Lord, I really feel like you're asking me to do this.

It feels scary.

But you're the one who owns it at the end of the day.

You're the father who's you're the proper owner of this thing.

I'm gonna do my best to steward it well, but I know that if I do incur a debt, you are still gonna pay it fully.

There's this there there, yeah, there's that liberty in it, which which inspires the risk taking, but there's also the love in it.

It's like you love it like it's yours.

And we get our position in Christ is that we love the place that He has put us like it's ours, like it belongs to us.

You know, this is mine.

Even if you're an exile, well, you it's mine though.

You know, so you're you're almost there's like this strange sort of like parallel between the we're in the space that we're in now, we're like egg, we're like um exiles in that it's not fully realized, uh our that it is ours yet.

It's not like the inheritance has been given.

And we're also like returned exiles.

We're like the ones who are returning to rebuild, like Nehemiah uh and Ezra, because it it is ours.

Totally.

It's ours.

And I I love that I I just think that, you know, um he makes me think of the Chesterton quote where he's like, uh I forget what he says, but he's like, Florence isn't um uh people don't love Florence because it's beautiful, Florence is beautiful because people loved it.

And I uh that has has captured my imagination so much for uh our church, for Redemption Church Denver.

It's it's one of the reasons why I love the I want our church to have like a neighborhood sort of emphasis.

Yeah.

Of like name our place.

Yeah.

And say like we look out at this place and we're going to say, this is our neighborhood, which means we're taking responsibility for it.

And we're taking responsibility for its problems and for its issues, like they're ours, you know, like they like they belong to us.

Um and this vision that you've articulated and gotten to share with me as well, I it just so rhymes with that.

It feels so in line with that.

And I even think the parallels are pretty similar.

Like there's like a um decay of communism, which is so maximal you can really see it.

But there's uh but the like you know, seductive, you know, twin brother of communism is is just liberalism, the idea that a society could be built on uh human autonomy and reason alone, uh with a neglect to a society being built on God.

And we don't have to wonder if that leads to decay anymore.

You know, you can just look and see uh that uh it obviously leads to decay.

And so it's like there's this fresh rediscovery of oh, a s a society built on the love of the gospel is where flourishing comes from.

That's where it comes from.

And if you n if you neglect that, you get decay.

Uh but to counteract it is like a few people that caught the gospel, you know, uh 50 years ago or whatever, or fi or 50 years from now.

Like what if what if our community was a few people that caught the gospel, that loved a place, uh that stuck around in uh a neighborhood like ours because we said, like, no, it's it's mine.

You know, I'm I'm I'm not leaving because it's mine.

And that, you know, it's partially easy to do, like it, like our neighborhood has its own pleasures and seductions as well that make it very easy to live in.

Great pizza.

You know, there's Tennyson is pizza, cowboy hats.

Now cowboy hats, which is good.

That's a good sign.

And um laser hair removal.

That's the main economy of our street.

This place is gonna be completely hairless in a couple of years.

So it's something to keep your eye out for.

You can cover it with a cowboy hat.

You can cover it with a cowboy hat.

It's a good call.

Uh but that vision of a few people catching it, that's why like I'm always talking about um uh people.

Moving here.

Yeah.

I'm I'm always talking about it.

And I and I I know that can feel like like almost like meddling.

Um like like and it and I get it.

I I understand.

Like I I obviously understand this is an absurdly expensive place.

I I understand the constraints or or b cost benefit of your particular calling in your particular life.

Of course, of course I get that.

I don't like not get that.

Um and I want some folks to catch this vision, uh to to commit to a location.

Yeah.

And participate in and love the fruitfulness of that location.

And I think that comes from the church, the energizing force of the church, which is where the uh our our hearts are formed to this vision.

Our hearts are formed rightly in love, which is another thing I'm obsessed with lately.

Like if it's not done in love, it literally goes away.

So our hearts have to be formed in love.

That's what that's the difference between things burning up or things lasting through fire is love, and that gets formed through the gospel and formed through our worship in the church.

And so that becomes this energizing force that uh produces like an undeniable life and flourishing in the same way that the fruit of liberalism is undeniable death and decay.

We don't if it were 2015, I thought that theoretically, you know, personally.

I was like, I I I you know can read the philosophers that describe this this end.

I don't have to wonder anymore.

I don't have to wonder, like, is the fruit of liberalism death and decay?

I can just look and see, like, oh yeah, it leads to death and decay and suffering, especially for the most vulnerable, which are the unborn and the elderly.

And there's not a society that has uh adopted liberalism that has found a way to protect the unborn or the elderly.

They there uh it becomes a tyranny of the strong over the weak, and that's which leads to death and decay.

The other side of that is like what you're describing, which is I I also love that the story was initially them loving the future of their place by loving their children.

Yeah.

You know, there is there is a real reticence of even bringing children into the world.

And there is such a like uh uh like putting it all on the gospel, uh the the hope that we have in Jesus Christ of saying like he promises uh glorious things for our children and for the future of this place that we're in.

It doesn't look glorious right now, uh especially when assessed at a spiritual level level.

I think the there's a there's a veneer of glory of like particularly delicious sandwiches, but that veneer runs off rubs off pretty quickly as you get to know folks and it's like, oh, everybody's like stressed and scared and financially squeezed and all those sorts of things, nervous for their nervous for the things that are most fundamental in life.

And there's this uh uh I love that that that that I I see that as an act of hope, an act of hope in in the and faith in the promises of Christ.

Yeah.

Uh by that, like, hey, let's make a school.

Totally.

Let's love our children.

Yeah.

Because and you were talking about this too, but as we are exiles, like we live in a real land, and yeah, are exiles because we're currently living away from our ultimate community, which is in heaven.

Um, but we're at the same time a distinct people in this particular place.

Um, and so as we're exiles, our commands are the same that the Lord gave to the exiles all through scripture.

We, in the meantime, until we're in our ultimate community, we marry, we have children, we seek the welfare of the city, we plant gardens, we practice holiness in everything we do.

We should be ready for dialogues about home.

We should practice loving hospitality and all of those things we do because being exiles doesn't mean a withdrawal from the world or from the land.

Um, in fact, it means that we invest in the land.

We build communities of faith, we have hope, and we love the dominant, we have love towards the dominant culture.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There's a uh you you can come in and get to experience freely the joys of what this community is experiencing.

Yeah.

You know, that's uh there's this, it goes forth by this invitation of the the free invitation of the gospel.

It's like, do you want your life to be blessed and fruitful?

Here's here's the way.

Yeah.

And it's free.

Yeah.

Which is the great news.

Yeah.

It's free.

The price for that has been paid.

Um it's such a cool vision, such a cool insight.

And I love the the like uh the like, hey, I've been somewhere that was very bad off and I've seen this happen.

You know, I've gotten to see the fruits of it.

Um there's a there's so much more that I want to talk about with regards to this, but I'd love for you to sort of share the thought processes of moving back because I know there's a lot of wrestling involved in that, as there was wrestling on the front end, and um what your sort of hopes are in your return to Denver, return to our church community, and what your uh and then just want to close out with like how we can be there for you guys and encouraging you and um in the return, because I'm sure that has all its own uh challenges.

Yeah.

So coming back, yeah, the decision to come back was a really challenging one.

Um we thought it would really only be difficult to leave Denver uh because our family, our best friends, our community in this church we love so deeply.

But when we moved to Bratislava, it was really important for us to learn the language, to make friends, make connections, and the challenge of that is it made it really hard to leave um on that end as well.

So we yeah, we had opportunities to stay in Bratislava.

We could have stayed long term, and I think we would have really loved it.

Um, when some people I would talk to as I processed this were like, well, you must be really ready to come back.

I was like, no, actually, not really.

Yeah, like we love this city, yeah.

Um, and I think a lot of people don't really know what Bratislava is, which is fair.

I didn't know before I went and visited, but it it does have all of this history, but it's a very modern city.

It has incredible public transit, really um wonderful restaurants and um businesses.

I mean, it's a very modern city in a lot of ways.

And so, well, in most ways, but with all this historic context associated with it.

So we really could have stayed in Bratislava and I think been very comfortable.

We had great friends.

Um, I loved the work I got to be a part of.

But I think we really um, yeah, in time just sensed the Lord inviting us back to Denver.

And we got this vision of like, what if we could see what's happened here in Bratislava happen in Denver?

What if we could be part of trying to start an ecosystem?

Like maybe the best time to start was 50 years ago, but the second best time is now, um, sort of concept.

Like what if we just elementary?

Yeah, exactly.

So what if we went to our community in Denver that we love, um, that we know needs Jesus desperately.

Um, there's people in Bratislava who still need Jesus desperately.

There's the harvest will always be plentiful in the laborers' few.

Like, there's never going to be a place that's like, oh, they're covered for the gospel.

But I think we just really got this vision of like, similar to Milan and Daniel and Maddox, got this vision of reaching their own people.

That's the vision we had.

Like, what if we went to Denver with this everything we've learned, everything we've seen, and we got to reach our own people by investing and cultivating in the land in this very real place.

Yeah.

So, yeah, that's what really guided our thinking and what um ultimately led to us making the decision to come back after a year and a half.

It was a really, really sad goodbye for us.

Um, we, I think Bratislava will always be a home for us.

We'll always consider it a home.

But we that was really our vision.

We just wanted to see um Denver.

We want to see Berkeley come to know Jesus.

And we want to cultivate this land here so that we can see the welfare of this city.

Yeah, I love that.

I'm so thankful for it.

I love that.

I'm excited that you guys are moving into the neighborhood.

Yeah, we're so excited.

You know, I have this hope that everyone in Berkeley will know someone that goes to Redemption Church, Denver.

Uh that's one of my hopes.

Because the the uh coming to church is is like, you know, barely on any, it's not on anyone's radar.

You know, it's going through the normal um life of uh, I think sort of the average person in our neighborhood.

And so it's like how well then how will they know?

Yeah.

How will they know?

They'll have to know somebody who can say, Come with me.

You know, I don't, I don't think there's another way.

Yeah.

They'll have to know somebody who can say, Come with me.

So uh, you know, there's this as you're talking about like a people in a place, that is the theme that just really struck me as I was preaching through Genesis as our church was just getting started.

And that was the theme over and over again.

And and it was kind of like this wrestling match of we're we've got the people and now we're not in the place.

Or we're like um Isaac, where we were in the place, and there's there's not really many people.

Yeah.

You know, and it's not, and at the same time, it's like, is it really our place?

Like we're sojourners in among Canaanites.

Uh it's not really our place.

Uh and but there's this relationship, just as there was with Adam and Eve, of the place and the people are always married.

They're always wed.

Like when there's more place, that means there's more people.

Yeah.

You know, that's the hope of the Great Commission.

Yeah.

Is like, how is it that uh like the way that Paul describes it in Romans is this anxious longing of creation for the renewal of the sons of God?

It's like, well, why is creation longing for that?

Well, it's because we're the rightful rulers of creation.

And so if we're not renewed, then it's like their whole life is just having a bad manager.

Exactly.

And you know what your life is like when you have a bad manager can ruin your whole life.

Exactly.

And so there's this, the increase of that, the increase of that promise is by the means of um uh the growth of the kingdom.

You know, in uh families that have kids keep their kids, in uh uh non-Christians hearing the gospel and the spirit uh taking root in their lives, the uh those those ordinary means um produce this sort of this sort of flourishing, especially when we get like it's our call to love it.

Yeah.

You know, we're we we get to be the ones that love it.

Because we're the ones that were loved.

Exactly.

And the one that loved us says it's ours.

You know, so like go get it, go get it in love.

That sort of vision, I think, is so awesome.

Yeah, so wonderful, and I've loved hearing the stories about it since you guys have been back, and and um it's such an awesome uh picture and such a hopeful picture.

Um and it's been so fun talking to you and Bo.

Uh so when it I just want to encourage like folks in the church, like just like talk to Carolyn and Bo about their time.

Learn these stories.

They're such encouraging stories, and they they capture such a vision that we get to uh share in and can participate in.

A lot of times when uh missionaries come back from overseas, you hear stories of a vision, and it's like, I don't really know how I could participate in something like that.

Um, this is particularly exciting, I think, because it's like, oh, you can be doing this like right now.

Totally.

You know, you can be you can be doing this right now, right here, uh, which is uh really cool.

Yeah.

So it's been super personally encouraging.

So thankful to the Lord for uh his work in y'all's lives and and sharing that and coming back and being able to articulate it.

Um uh I'm thrilled you're back.

I know so many folks in the church are thrilled you're back.

Uh and uh how can we be, you know, supporting you guys or praying for you guys in uh um yeah, this in this return.

Yeah, I appreciate you asking that.

We I I have this visual of kind of what it's been like coming back to the States.

Um of like I haven't seen this movie in years, but in Bambi, when Bambi is like learning to walk and he's on ice and like slipping, I feel like that's a little bit how I feel coming back to the States.

Yeah.

Where and it's been a little bit weird because I think I'm really feeling this exile thing like on full display.

Because in Bratislava, I was an outsider, of course.

I'm I was an immigrant into this country where I'm learning a new language and new cultural.

We didn't even talk about learning the language.

Yeah, that's probably its own podcast.

Yeah.

But um, so of course I'm gonna be an outsider there.

But I think coming back, it was like, okay, this is we're coming back to our home culture, our home people, our home church and community.

And uh to be honest, it's just been a lot harder than I think we anticipated.

Some things have been harder, some have been easier.

Um, but yeah, it just feels like we're just kind of getting our feet under us a little bit.

Um, but I have often felt like, man, I don't really belong here anymore.

Like I've been changed.

Do I belong?

Can I belong?

Um, so I think I would appreciate prayers as we navigate that and um yeah, figure out what does belonging look like, what does uh what does resettling here look like?

You mentioned we're buying a home here in the neighborhood.

The Lord just did so many miracles to make that happen.

Yeah.

Um so we're just so thankful to the Lord for his kindness in that.

It's just yeah, something we it's far more than we could have asked or imagined.

And we're so thankful.

Um, but yeah, we'd would love prayers for kind of this resettling period and time.

Um and I think we feel really loved and cared for when we get to share these stories and when people ask questions.

We love, we loved our lives in Slovakia.

We loved our people in Slovakia.

And we would just love to get to share those stories and tell anyone about those people and that place and the land the Lord gave us to cultivate while we were there in Slovakia.

Yeah, that's great.

That's wonderful.

Yeah, so heed that call.

We'll be praying for you.

Thanks.

We're thankful you're back.

We're thankful for all that the Lord's done in your life, and I'm excited for uh the future, excited for the continued fruitfulness from uh your guys' lives.

You and Bo mean so much to us.

We're so thankful.

We're so thankful for you.

So thanks so much for sharing.

I think this will be a huge encouragement for the church.

And um, that's probably good.

We'll wrap it.

Great.

All right.

Thanks, Carolyn.

Have a great day, everybody.

Goodbye.