#4033 Pastor Kai: Artist, Writer, Pastor. (Part 2)

The Healing the City Podcast is a ministry of the Village Church in Tucson, Arizona.

If you enjoy the Healing the City podcast and wish to support it financially, you can go to villagersonline.com, click the We Give tab, and follow the instructions.

Thank you for listening and enjoy the podcast.

Hello, this is Pastor Eric, and you're listening to the Healing the City podcast, and this is part two of my interview with Pastor Kai from Central City.

Well, I want people to know who you are, and that's really awesome.

Yeah.

But one of the things I'm so excited to maybe talk about, especially in the theme of this podcast, because really the whole theme of this podcast is to tell the stories of the village and to provide real tangible ways for people to experience healing, right?

Through Jesus.

Yeah.

And through the gifts of our community.

And you've written a number of books, and I feel like well, one one book particular, but then you have like some other kids' books and all that.

Sure.

But it it really feels like that is that's in line, the book that you wrote.

So I'm wondering if you had just tell us about the book you wrote.

It's how long ago you wrote it, what what was kind of going on behind it, what's what's it for, all that kind of stuff.

How do we get it?

Yeah.

Thank you.

I'm gonna give you an author's like.

Yeah, that's hard.

That's awesome.

Very cool.

Um Yeah, so the book is called The Art of Giving Up an Unconventional Spiritual Discipline.

Sounds like it fits right into healing the city one person at a time.

Yeah, and it you know, it came from a sermon series that we went through.

And um the sermon series came uh for some reason when God gives me ideas for things that I believe are are are you know formative for me, yeah.

Um he wakes me up uh uh early in the morning.

Okay, and there's words, there's um not audible voices, but these deep senses.

Um and for this sermon series, it was um, yeah, I woke up and I felt like God was saying, I want you to give up in your marriage.

I was like, what in the world does that mean?

That doesn't sound like like the right is did you mean to say that?

Um and then just spending some time thinking about that, um, just this idea of self-denial and surrender, which is absolutely a spiritual discipline, but we don't hear a lot about it.

Um, you know, I I love John Mark Comer's book, Um, you know, The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry, which is a lot about spiritual disciplines.

Yeah.

Um, or even I'm I'm starting to understand more of who Dallas Willard is.

Right.

Um, and there's a lot of that, but uh you know, um self-denial and surrender is not the sexy one, you know, it's it's not the one that gets talked about.

Yeah.

And so I I just felt like okay, this I think this is another aspect of spiritual discipline that actually Jesus talks a lot about you know, take up your cross and follow me.

And um, Paul says I I die daily to myself, you know.

Um and so that that just turned into um I forget how many weeks we did it, but um I I I believe too that God was saying this is this is the first book um that you're gonna write.

And this is something, you know, you're not borrowing another sermon series or listening to other people.

You're really this is unique.

This is your deal.

Yeah, something that I believe he gave me.

And so um the way I write sermons is I manuscript everything, I write it all down, and it seems like a waste to just put that on a shelf and then never hear about it ever again.

Yeah.

And so I was able to take that those manuscripts and and turn it into a very short book, you know.

I think it's barely a hundred pages, but um it it communicates.

Can you can you maybe just work us through a little bit of the progression and the themes of the book and like what we might be encountering if we picked it up?

Yeah.

Um so it it it really is um it really is just uh as as it as the title says, it's an unconventional spiritual discipline.

Um and it's about giving up.

And it's uh it's an art form that um that requires some practice and it requires some learning.

Um it requires some some discipline.

And in our culture, where you know sacrificing yourself, that's not that's not a thing.

It's it's all about you, you know.

Um that that seemed like uh just a countercultural thing as well.

Um and so I I I just kind of lay it out what's what that spiritual discipline looks like using um Jesus' own words to pick up your cross and follow me and um and deny yourself.

Uh the whoever um seeks to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses it will will rescue it or save it.

Yeah.

Um and I I haven't picked that book up in a while, and so I couldn't tell you the chapters.

I'm just curious, is can you maybe just if you can, it's fine if you can't, but can you just touch down on like maybe one or two things that you invite people to do in that book that have maybe even been transformative to you?

Yeah.

I I would say uh probably the biggest one um that I still um try to implement every day is like whatever you give yourself up to like first thing in the morning is what you're probably gonna give yourself up to for the rest of the day.

Um and to tie that back into spiritual disciplines, you know, um the the phone has taken over so much of people's lives.

And a lot of people, that's the first thing they reach to.

And so um what I what I believe is if we give ourselves over to that, then that's what's gonna control us the rest of the day.

And so um giving up is is a all day kind of event.

Um first thing in the morning when you wake up, you um you give yourself up to God.

And this is actually even you know Jewish practice.

They um if they're really trying to to follow the Torah, they wake up and they um they say a prayer, which is ultimately saying, God, you're the God of the universe and I surrender to you.

Um and then they have prayers of surrender even like for going to the bathroom.

They have prayers for everything, and it and it really is all about like, God, you're in control, I'm not.

And so I want to follow you.

Um and then throughout the day, what does it look like to live a life of surrender?

You need to you need to give up in your marriage, which is a a life of sacrifice towards your your spouse with your kids.

We need to sacrifice for your kids, um, for even work.

You know, work isn't ultimately about you, it's it's about working as unto the Lord and the people that he's placed you around.

Um, and so I think if we can align our lives and that spiritual discipline of of self-denial and and surrender, um, I think we're actually uh really align ourselves with Jesus in a practice that he did his entire life.

His whole life was about pouring out and serving people.

That's really good.

Yeah.

That's that's really cool.

And the nice thing about this book, it's only a hundred pages.

Very quick read.

Very quick read.

Yeah, in fact, I I I will confess I haven't read it, but my wife actually has read the book.

Yeah, cool.

That's awesome.

Um was a couple years ago.

When when you first when did you when did it get released?

It was I think it was two years ago in July.

Or maybe maybe three years ago in July.

So then there's this other book you told me about.

You say it's a better seller.

It is a better seller, actually, which is which is I guess not surprising.

But it's an interesting kid's book.

So could you just tell me a little bit about the book, the game, the whole deal?

This is pretty this is when I was like, oh my gosh, he's like it's you really are creative forces.

Oh gosh.

Well, I I had always wanted to write a kid's book.

Even before God led me on this path of creative writing.

I always thought it would be cool to write a kid's book.

Um, and so I had had this idea um of maybe even one of my own kids out playing, um, and you know, they're kind of in a distance, and then they all of a sudden realize I've I've got to go to the bathroom or I've got to go potty, which is the title of the book.

I've got to go potty.

Um and so they realize I've got to run back home.

Sure.

Um, but as they head back home, they encounter all of these wonderful things that distract them.

And so they see this one really amazing thing and they stop and look at it, and then they realize, oh wait, I have to go to the bathroom.

And so they keep going and then they just encounter one thing after another.

Um, I I wanted it to be more not just like uh normal but exciting.

And so I was uh I one day I was like, what if it was a little cave boy in the ice age?

Nice.

And so I um started thinking about that and thought about all the cool things that a little cave boy could have encountered.

Um I was like, okay, I think that's I think that's it.

And so started writing it out.

Um just as I said, you know, he leaves out into his icy world, um, goes out and plays, he's training to be, you know, a hunter, a great hunter like his his cave dad.

Um and then he realizes he's gotta go to the bathroom, and then uh along the way back to his little cave potty, because he he doesn't like going outside um where everybody could see him, um, he encounters all these ice age uh wonders, mammoths and saber-toothed tigers, giant skeletons of ancient, you know, animals and um yeah.

And I won't ruin the story, but I bet you you you can tell where it's going.

No.

And and you then decided that there should be a board game for this.

Yeah, it was like what a what a great, you know, there's um all of the great elements of a board game.

You know, there's um a destination you're trying to reach, and then within the game there's the elements of the book, there are the distractions that will make you lose a turn.

And then I added a couple more things to help progress you further and set you back and things like that.

Um and yeah, so then I designed it and had it printed out um on you know like a neoprene board because we have Candyland and it's torn up and rigged up, but that neoprene's not gonna get destroyed.

Yeah, and so yep, gotta have a little board game to go with it.

And so you can order the book, I'm assuming, on Amazon.

Yeah, you can order the book on Amazon.

You gotta you gotta call me.

You gotta you gotta hit me up in the DMs or email me or something like that.

I think we yeah, email is probably safest.

Yeah, there you go.

That's awesome.

And how when did you finish that up?

When did that happen?

That project um was it was last year that I I finally finished, actually both.

The the game came pretty quickly after the book, and so I finished both the book and the game last year.

Okay.

So in the middle, is these are two creative projects.

In the middle of these projects, you ever think, why am I doing this?

Like all the time.

Okay.

Yeah, I think I'm not alone in that.

No, yeah.

And and I have to be very careful because when I get into a project, I dive way into it.

And I'll stay up late until it's done, you know, and I'll spend way more time than I need to.

Um, and that can get uh that can be make it a challenge for other things in life.

Yes, no, you get the you get the like hypervision.

Yeah, no, I understand that.

Yeah.

When you like so like when I asked you about the book, it's obvious that like you haven't touched on the material in the while.

Yeah.

Does it like once you finish a creative project, does your brain like turn it off and then kind of after a while it's like I'll just put it here and like I don't even know if it exists really?

There are some things that that have been that, um, but because uh you know, the um the art of giving up and and I've got to go potty or more public facing, yeah.

Um I I think about them a little bit more.

Okay.

But there are definitely projects that I've done or started, didn't finish, right, and then just completely forget about.

And then my wife will be, you know, remember when you started?

I was like, oh yeah, I do remember that.

Yeah.

So you sent me a few weeks ago, uh like, hey, would you take this digital digital test?

Yeah.

Which I want to confess, I answered it as honestly as I could.

Yeah.

And then like it haunted me for it really because then I'm like, um, do I do I do wait?

Oh wow.

Now I'm kidding, I don't think I said I did.

Okay, okay.

So it was an interesting like retrospective on like my answers.

Yes.

So that was but anyway, yeah.

Your church is doing kind of a a digital reset, inviting people into really taking seriously how much they're connected to their phone, their TV, yeah, and computer, and what other purposes, like what are the categories with which you're doing that?

Like, you know, because it's funny to me, I was like when I was doing your assessment, yeah, when I go on vacation, it gets really frustrating to me because I will realize that I don't even know where my phone is.

Yeah, okay.

And and then I'm like, then I'll have all of a sudden this wave of like, shoot, did I miss you?

Something I just missed.

Because I if I didn't, if I wasn't a pastor, I would really like I would I think I would just get one of those those square ones because all I really need is to be able to text people and podcast.

I don't want to make a light phone or something like that.

Yeah, I don't want to lose my podcasts.

Right.

I am pretty addicted to those.

Yeah, those are important.

I don't know if they are, but I'm addicted.

But I the other stuff, like it really, the temptation is is there when I have it, but I don't want it.

And I could easily just be like, Yeah, I don't like this.

This thing it attaches itself to me.

But then it does become like the habits are bad at times, and you have to be like, no, I can't do that.

You have to make these choices anyway.

The assessment's really good.

Yeah.

Um, and then on that assessment, you actually have like a detox plan, which I kind of looked at.

I didn't really look at so um maybe you could tell me tell everybody a little bit about the assessment, um, and then we're gonna put the assessment on the like in the show notes so people can take it.

Yep.

And I wasn't sure, like, do they they don't need to send you the anything, they just have the information.

It's all it's all anonymous.

Um, I don't receive anything from anybody, it's all just for your personal formation and development.

And then there's also like an offering of like here's how you can maybe detox from all of us.

Yeah, yeah.

So um this came um we just started a new series in in September called Detox.

Okay.

Um and it's not just about um digital, but that's a great way for everybody to connect.

Yeah.

They all realize, no, maybe we have a little bit of an unhealthy relationship with our devices or media in general, whatever it might be.

Um and so the the idea of yeah, how how do we assess where we are?

Because we might not even realize how how connected to these things that we're latched onto these things that we are.

Um, and so uh yeah, created the assessment and it and it just evaluates, you know, what is your relationship with your phone like?

What is your relationship with gaming or um podcasts or even news, um, social media, um how often are we checking our messages and our our emails and things like that?

And it just asks some simple questions to help help assess that.

Yeah.

And uh hopefully by the the end of it, you um what I reckon is that most people will be like, yeah, that sounds about right.

Um but there might be some things of like, okay, I didn't realize how much that I was attached to this thing.

Um so the the first half of the test is what exactly is is weighing you down?

The second half of the test is how is it impacting your life?

So um there are lots of questions of like, um, does your time on social media impact your relationship with your family?

Right.

Has anybody ever told you that you're on your phone too much?

Those those kinds of questions.

And uh the hope is you'll see here's here's the problem, here's how it's impacting me.

Um and then after that, there's um a digital health reset.

And it's uh just a 30-day digital health reset.

Um, and it moves you kind of through four movements.

The the first movement is to recognize what exactly it is, and and it's not there's no elimination in that first week.

It's just like when I have a free moment, what am I reaching for?

Yeah, which you know it's very helpful for me.

I did the first part.

I was like, oh yeah, it started, made me aware.

Yep.

And so you just recognize that and and then you you document or take note of it.

And then the next week is is about um removing a lot of even like health detoxes or diets, uh, they emphasize it it even to um rewire your brain, right?

Neural pathways and all those things, it requires uh a cutoff, um, an elimination.

And so the second week is about uh elimination.

What are the things you need to get rid of?

Uh is it an app on your phone?

Um do you need to turn off Fox News or CNN or the political commentary?

Um do you need to abstain from it for a little bit?

Um and then the second week is I'm sorry, the third week um is um oh I'm gonna forget all the the terms.

They're four R's, but you'll see them in there.

But the process is is yeah, let's reintroduce some of these things.

Or let's uh let's repair our our health with with those things.

That's an R.

Yep, that's an R.

Uh and then the last one is to actually start reintroducing or restoring um with better health.

And maybe throughout the the digital health reset, you realize I don't actually need I feel better without social media, so I'm gonna not even get back on, or I feel better whenever I'm not listening to the news all the time or looking at X, you know.

Um and so there is some encouragement to eliminate, but then if you realize, no, I still need to I still need to have access to my phone because I've got kids and I need to message them, or I'm a pastor and I need to make sure I'm available for emergencies or whatever it might be.

Um but it's it's about uh I I I heard a statement from Pastor Tyler Staten Um where he said uh he was talking about um his relationship with different things and he said he approaches like detox or or these kinds of scenarios as not as an alcoholic needs to abstain from alcohol, but how an anorexic needs to uh just have a better relationship with food.

An anorexic can't just eliminate food from their life, right?

They have to keep eating.

And I was like, that's that's exactly what we need with uh social media or news, things that are not necessarily sinful, they're not evil, but we've just developed an unhealthy relationship with us.

And um and the whole series is based on Hebrews chapter 12, verses 1 and 2.

Hebrews 12:1

Um is it really?

Yeah, just laying aside every weight and uh every sin that clings so closely and then looking to Jesus um and and trying to finish the race.

And so um the digital detox is really just a gateway into what are the weights of my life that are weighing me down.

Um it could even just be busyness.

Are you guys you guys are preaching on 12, 1 through 3?

12, 1 through 2.

One through two.

We are using 12, 1 through 3 and 12 and 13.

Okay, you know, strengthen your feeble arms and knees.

Yep.

Uh as a lens to read the Sermon on the Mount.

Oh wow, okay.

Yeah.

So it's been a real interesting y'all are going through that right now?

Yeah.

We just what's crazy is I've I've heard multiple other just snippets of of other churches quoting that, those two verses.

Like, yeah.

It happens all the time.

Totally original to you.

Only you have seen this great thing.

Right.

Yeah.

Spirit's like, yeah, no.

Yeah.

It's me.

I've got it.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah, no, that's very cool.

So it's been it's been good so far.

I've heard from some of our church family, you know, they're like, Yeah, I'm gonna get my phone out of my room and go back to uh old school alarm clock.

Yeah.

Um, some people saying, Yeah, we're gonna downgrade to you know an e-ink screen phone or something like that because they recognize it.

I have a funny story to tell about this.

Okay.

So my son is very much into this.

So his uh his girlfriend has his phone completely locked so that he can't go to app stores, anything like that.

Yep.

He also has it all grayed out.

Yep.

That can't do YouTube, can't do anything, right?

So like like this right here.

Yes.

That's my screen.

Very close to your screen.

So my son also has uh heart condition.

Okay.

And when they did um an ablation, yep, uh, they had they also put a little Bluetooth thing in there.

Oh wow.

And to monitor things.

And so then they had to come in and fix, like, get his phone to work on the, you know, download the app.

Yep.

And so he's like, the guy comes in, the technician's like, Can I have your phone?

So, you know, Elliot's coming out of anesthesia, and I'm finding his phone, and Elliot hands it to him, and he's like, Okay, what's the code?

What am I supposed to do with this phone?

And then Elliot's like, um, oh, you're gonna have to call my girlfriend to get the password.

Yeah.

And we're in a lead room.

Yeah.

Because they, you know, because of everything that's happening, you know.

And the guy's like, uh, okay.

He just did not know what to do.

This is so foreign to him, it's like 20-year-old who's not does not want to do anything to maybe like an older person who's had a heart thing, but not a young kid, no.

Yeah.

It's uh so he's like, well, I guess we'll have to do it later.

I've never seen anybody with it like this.

Yeah, that's amazing.

I love that story.

Yeah, I mean, it's like, well, that's this is actually the dis you know, uh a kid being disciplined digitally, you know, and really wanting it not to control his life.

Man, that's a that's I think we can learn a lot from him.

No, I have been impressed with my son in that way.

You know, doesn't necessarily always clean his room, but But I'm not gonna win.

Yeah.

Um, but anyway, yeah, no, the the digital thing is it's really good that that you're stepping into this, and it's interesting that you're doing it through Hebrews 12.

Yeah, you know?

Um yeah, so I'm excited about that being we'll put it on here in the city.

We've got a bunch of other resources that we um usually at the end of sermons I I provide like reflection questions for people to look through, but this is a a heavier resource kind of series.

No, I like that you've got an a diagnostic.

Yeah.

Yeah, I uh we I've only done the diagnostic thing once, and I built a quiz on what kind of follower are you.

Yep.

Um and I just improved it a bit recently.

Oh, that's awesome.

What what have you been using to I just use it?

I just plug-in for WordPress, and I just have ChatGPT write them for me and then I install it on the same thing.

AI is amazing for that.

Yeah, like you can yeah, there's so many cool things that you can do with it.

Um and this is where I have to be careful because in some ways AI is just an extra creative brain.

Yeah, yep.

And and and it's like, man, there's this whole set of things I could not do that I dreamed that I could do, and now I can do them.

Now your Tasmanian devil is on overdrive.

I have to hold him down.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, so alright.

So is there other stuff that you're working on that's sitting on the back burner?

Are you working on any new books?

No, not at the moment.

Um, oftentimes after I have one kind of creative thing, I'll I'll take a break for a while.

Um, and I'll always think about things, and I know something's gonna come up eventually.

Yeah, yeah.

You're very disciplined about that.

That's not so okay.

But the other thing that we haven't talked about is well, there's a couple things that I want to talk about.

One is that you're a musician, but I don't actually know a lot about you as a musician.

Yeah.

So can you tell me a little bit about like what you play, like how you became a musician?

What is it that you enjoy about that?

Yeah, so I mean, in in elementary, you've got your usual kind of like music class, music appreciation, all that kind of stuff.

And um, I was really into like classical music.

I didn't listen as a very young kid.

I would go to sleep to classical music.

I was really early to identify like Beethoven's my favorite, you know, classical composer.

Um that is a little odd.

Yeah, and and um it actually came from a friend, he he was having dreams or nightmares or something like that, and he said classical music helped him.

I wasn't having those, I was just like, that's a good idea, you know.

Um, and so I would, you know, put on the C D and play the music and just fall asleep to it.

Um and I didn't really listen to a lot of other music.

Okay.

Um and then when uh the opportunity for orchestra came around, I think it was fifth grade for me, okay, uh, played the cello and I did that for a year, and um that just naturally came to me and I was I was decent at it.

Um but then uh the next year, like brass and woodwind came around.

Okay, and I wanted I really wanted to play saxophone.

Um but the the person I went to to like do the fitting for instruments, he was like, No, you should play trumpet.

I was like, but I really want to play saxophone.

I remember seeing um Bill Clinton play saxophone.

I was like, that's our president, and he's playing saxophone.

I want to play.

Yeah.

Um, and so he convinced me to, even though I didn't want to, to play trumpet.

Okay.

Um and that was my primary instrument all through um you know sixth grade, all the way through college.

That's a maybe it's a prerequisite to be a worship leader or something.

Play some trumpet.

Well, Mark played trumpet all his life.

Oh, nice.

That's awesome.

Trumpet player.

I think I remember that.

Yeah, I I do think I remember talking about that with him.

Um so yeah, I did did trumpet and was very good at it.

That I I was um just not trying to boast, just natural to me.

What God's given you.

Yep.

Um and I was very involved in um all everything band, marching band, um, concert band, symphonic band, joining with the And you were in Texas, right?

In Texas.

How old are you?

How old am I right now?

39.

39.

Because I have some friends, well, some people here go to church.

Where did you live in Texas?

Um DFW area, so Arlington, Texas.

Never mind.

But band is huge, marching band is huge.

Like if you're not there for the football team, you're there for the marching band.

And yeah.

And so was super heavy into that jazz band, playing with uh the stringed instruments as well, um, dabbled in in choir just a little bit, not as much.

Um and yeah, I and even throughout that, just the world of music was opened up even more and learning about different composers.

I love listening to you know, movie music scores that are really awesome.

Uh Danny Elfman, John Williams, Hans Zimmer, you know, those are my like top three favorite guys.

Okay.

Um the guy who I forget his name, but the guy who does the um um the Mandalorian soundtrack.

He's also very, very good, very talented.

Yeah.

Um and yeah, so I just uh decided after high school that I wanted to um write music like my favorite music movie composers.

And so I went to the University of Texas in Arlington and started doing their music theory composition program.

Oh wow.

Um, but then that's when um the Lord redirected me.

Um I thought it was me, but it was definitely him uh to join the military.

And so Can you?

Okay, wait a minute.

That's a big shift from going to a music theory person to join the military.

How did that happen?

Um well I just got I got uh kind of bored with the music routine.

Okay.

I'd been in it for most of my young life, and um in college they really emphasize like you being a good player by yourself.

And I'm not, I don't like playing by myself.

I prefer to play in bands.

Um and it was a lot.

I thought high school was a lot, college was so much more just nonstop music all the time.

Um and I kind of just got a little burnt out of it.

Um I was also I knew I had a call to be a pastor whenever I was in junior high.

Um and I was within my church life, I was kind of being built up into that, um, being very active in youth group, and um, they were supporting me, even like, hey, you're gonna be our youth intern.

Um and yeah, just everything.

I was like, I I'm I think I needed a little break from all this.

And uh also didn't want to pay for college anymore and knew that military was a great way to do that.

And so um yeah, I joined the after my first year of college, joined the Air Force and yeah.

How long were you in the Air Force?

Six years.

Six years.

Yep, six years.

I knew I didn't want to stay.

Uh the goal was I didn't want to pay for college.

And so after the six years, um I got out and then and then restarted college.

When did you where did you end up stationed?

Just Davis Montan.

That was yeah.

As a as a linguist, my schooling was very long.

Um I spent a year in Monterey, California learning Chinese.

Okay.

And then um intelligence school and language or uh flight school on top of that.

Interesting.

Lots of schooling.

And so um by the time I got here, I only had a few years left.

And um, unless you're retraining or doing other things, you kind of stay there.

Yeah, gotcha.

Okay.

So you make that shift together.

So that's how you got into music.

That's how I got into music.

And it all throughout that, I started um, you know, at at our church, uh, I would jump in in different ways.

I started teaching myself guitar, okay, um, played guitar, um, we needed a drummer.

I would always listen to my band director teach drums during jazz band.

And so I was like, I think I could do that.

And so I jumped on drums and would play a little bit of drums.

You learn guitar, you can play bass also.

Yep.

Um, music, uh, educate like college, you have to start learning piano.

So I I knew the foundations of that.

And so I I kind of dabble all over the place and I can do a few different things.

Yeah.

You're a little you're a little bit you're probably a lot like my littlest brother who's well, Sue too, right?

I mean, both both all of you, you're pretty musical.

No, I mean Sue's very musical.

Yeah.

But my brother, my little brother, um, we used to call him the the wish child, the golden child, because he'd pick up, you know, like he'd pick up a cello, yeah, and then he'd play it for a year and be better than people who've been playing it for years and years and years.

And and yeah, he's just uh an amazing musician.

I don't know if there's an instrument he doesn't know how to play.

That's awesome.

Yeah, I wish I had more of that.

I think my son does.

He's so that's awesome.

Yeah, he's got perfect pitch, um, all of those things.

That's amazing.

Which he just we just recognized one day, you know.

That's cool.

Yeah.

So you've written a number of songs.

Um what was the last time you wrote a song?

Um we actually just released one um was it last year or this year?

Can you download it on Spotify, listen to it?

No, it's it's not public anywhere.

It's just for for our church.

No, that's awesome.

Um and so I will say that music is one of those things where I'll do it and then I'll forget about it.

You mean you're like, will you so will you remember the song?

I know I've I've written a song that we released can I tell you the name on the spot right now?

I can't.

Um but it's uh what is it about?

Uh we can keep talking and I'll and I'll figure out what it's about.

This is pretty great.

But it's it's one I I even though I can't remember the name, um it's one I'm relatively proud of.

It's it's one of those songs where you you kind of you you play it and you're like, I think there's something there.

Yeah.

And then after you present it to your church family and everybody's worshiping to it, they're like, that's that's a keeper, you know.

Yeah.

Um and so that one, yeah, was I think it was either uh this year or last year.

Yeah.

I mean, I I I uh yeah, I do like writing worship music.

Um it's uh it is it's such a powerful experience to stand in a group of people singing a song you wrote, listening to them and even listening to the band, because I'm not in the band, yeah.

Play it not necessarily always how you imagined it, because they've formed it.

Yep.

And it's gone through a lot of transformative processes with my wife because I'm not a real I'm I'm good at kind of building I'm a good producer.

And if I had another life, that would be that would be your I would love to be a music producer, but yeah, no, I'm not a great I'm not a great musician, I'm a bad musician.

But um I mean literally I write a song and a lot of times it's purely just a bass line for the melody because that's I can I can play a decent sing and play a bass line.

That's important.

You need you need the bass line.

Well, I just helps me make the melody, yeah.

So anyway, I know what I was gonna ask you while you were talking.

You are a really good musician.

And I I'm curious as you like, because part of being in a community of God and singing and being is not everyone is as skilled as you are, and they're offering their worship and maybe they're up on stage.

Does your um skill and your ear get in the way?

Yes.

Um although how do you work around that?

Because I don't have that issue.

So although I've curious.

I've matured, thankfully, um, and I've recognized that um You had to die to yourself.

I had to die to myself, practice that self-denial, you know.

And and so uh early on, yes.

And even still, we'll we'll go to other churches for conferences or something like that.

And even though they're like a mega church and they have great musicians, I'll I'll hear something, and I'm like, something's not right there.

You know, and it can distract me.

Yeah, um, but at that point I just have to stop listening to the music and I just need to focus on the words.

Um, and that's that's what I will will focus on.

Okay.

Which isn't natural for me.

I have to work really hard at it.

Um I just talked about this on one Sunday that because of just my musical career, um I hear melody and I hear music before I hear words.

Yeah.

And so even worship music, uh, I find it's hard for me to connect with right away.

Sure.

Um I have to listen to it many, many times to really hear the words.

And oftentimes if the melody isn't good, then we're like, ah, no, I don't want to do that one, you know.

Um so it's a it does create a challenge for for me to to really focus.

Yeah.

Um, especially in our we're trying to release a lot of ministry to people.

Um I I I've I don't lead worship as much as I used to, which is good.

I'll play like in in the support band, you know, sure, uh drums or whatever.

Sure.

But um I haven't had to do a whole lot of it.

And so sitting and and hearing a drummer not not to where I am, who we have said we want you to be here because we're trying to release ministry to people, yeah, it can be challenging.

But even knowing that, like what the purpose is behind it, I'm able to like it's okay.

Yeah, like they're they're growing in the gift that that they're they're trying to be a good steward of.

Yeah.

That's that's that's interesting.

Yeah, because I I feel like because there's sort of the altar of excellence that I grew up in, yeah, I really re resisted that.

Yeah.

I mean, I don't have a problem with people being good and practiced, but like that demand for um it.

But I know that as the the friends that I have and people around me who are really good musicians, like there's a certain like they have to have a special like dispensation, so to speak.

Yep.

Because their ears are a little different.

Like I can over like I have a dissonant core, they missed it, and I enjoy it.

Yeah.

Whereas it's not enjoyable.

You like that?

That was a nice little flavor touch.

Yeah, that's a little flavor touch.

Or like, wow, they're trying really hard, but they're behind the beat.

Like, it's okay, you know.

To me, I'm okay with that.

Sometimes as a pastor, I'm less about me, though.

Sometimes I'm like, oh man, I don't know how the how the new people are handling this.

But yeah, I I think like communally it's really rich.

And and I I love, I mean, there is something very beautiful about releasing people and being in a smaller church and saying, hey, we're all you like we're all needing together, yeah.

Yeah, and we're serving together.

And sometimes sometimes dad is playing and it's nice, and sometimes the kids are playing and it's yeah, you know, it's a different nice.

No, that's so true.

And that's been helpful for me.

And it's the heart too, you know.

Um I I think it's different if somebody shows up and I know they haven't given any time at all to it, and and there's not that excellence.

Um, because I do think we need to bring our best offerings to God.

No, I agree.

Um, but if they're messing up but they're like worshiping and they're in it, then um that's that's what it's all about.

Yeah.

But you also have to like choose certain self-denials, which is interesting because not all like really good musicians um are that way.

Yeah, and so and I don't know, so it's some of them, it's like I think it depends on how they experience like the technical part of music and how it affects them and things like that.

Because we when we first planted the village, we had a guy from Nashville who is a relatively well-known guitarist.

Sure.

And he loved, like, we were not good, and he loved it.

It was his favorite thing.

He's like, I don't want to play here, it's just so much fun.

Wow, that's awesome.

I was like, You're weird.

That is really interesting.

Well, I I think you get to a point of uh well, kind of like what you grew you grew up in, where the perfection and the performance, that's all it is.

You know that you kind of recoil whenever you really understand the heart of worship and and what it's all about.

Um, and so that that makes sense that a national guy with a heart of worship would be.

Yeah, he was very much, and we were like, hey, do you think you know his wife was a pretty decent, uh, an amazing drummer from a metal band.

Oh wow.

And we were like, Can you guys use a plate?

No, no, yeah, yeah.

No, we love it here.

Yeah, that's awesome.

You know, it's something that you always when you have a skill, like you can get almost, I don't know, cannibalized a little bit at church instead of just being allowed to to just enjoy it like everyone else and be part and then kind of figure out how you're gonna bring your gifting.

Yeah, that that's something we really resist as much as possible.

Like what we at at our church, um, you know, we know there are gifted people, but part of our church culture and just something that God has has um kind of uses for are for people who have been hurt by the church.

Um and it was spoken even before, um, even prophetically over us before we were like fully in it um that we would be a church where like hurting people would come, specifically people who've been hurt by the church, and they could find healing um and they could love the bride of Christ again.

And so we just take that seriously and for some reason God just keeps bringing those people to our church.

And a lot of them are gifted, they've served in ministry in different ways, they have great capacity and and capability, but um but they've they've felt the I've been used a lot.

And so um we don't ask them right away, you know.

They'll come to us and they'll they'll sometimes offer it without even asking, and we're like, cool, you know, but we don't push on maybe like we y maybe you should come serve over here and and we let them tell us when they're ready, if they're ever ready.

Yeah.

So yeah.

So one thing I haven't, I mean, we talked about your wife, but you got four kids.

Four kids talk about the kids.

Yeah, and I I want to like protect their anonymity, but yeah, I don't know if maybe you could just tell us a little bit of the makeup of your family.

Yeah, we got four kids, um thirteen.

We have a th a teenager, he he just turned thirteen uh in September.

Um and so we have a 13-year-old, a nine-year-old, a six-year-old, and a four-year-old.

And uh three boys, they're the oldest, and then our youngest is our daughter.

Yeah.

Who we uh, yeah.

So we we adopted her.

Uh we had our three boys, and we were like, it's just not in the cards for us to have our girl.

Um, and uh God provided a way for us to adopt, and and so she's uh an incredible gift to us.

That's really cool.

Yep.

It's really cool.

Um so what is your family like like to do?

What are some of the family fun things that you guys do together?

Yeah, we um we do a lot of just with three boys, young boys, we do a lot of things that require energy and activity.

And so uh I can't just lay on the ground to relax my back uh without one of them jumping on me.

And so most of that's often what happens is a lot of wrestling, a lot of rough housing.

Uh our daughter jumps in too because she's got three older brothers, so she's used to it.

She's used to the wrestling.

So we do a lot of that.

Um we um we really we all like food.

Um and so we'll you know cook good food and enjoy meals together.

We all have you know our meals around the dinner table together.

Foodie family.

Foodie family.

That's awesome.

Um we like to watch certain shows together, like cooking shows.

We'll watch some cooking shows together.

Like chopped.

We haven't gotten into that one.

Our family, all the all four of us, too.

Yeah, that's good.

That's a good show.

Um we like next level chef.

Oh have you and no, we're kind of I'm out of the cooking thing now.

That's one that you should definitely look at.

Next level.

Next level chef.

Okay.

Um it's great.

I won't go into the details, just just look it up.

Um we uh um what else do we do?

Yeah, we we uh we haven't gotten into playing games as much.

Okay.

Um because with the two younger ones, they don't totally understand.

And um and so, but we're getting there.

And actually, I've got to go potty has been our first like family game experience because it's simple enough that we can all play.

Um we like to be outside as much as we can, and with it cooling off, we're gonna be doing a lot more of that.

It's been awesome.

Yeah, so good.

Um we'll just ride bikes or play basketball or just be outside.

Um yeah, we like we like the outdoors.

Um yeah.

It's cool.

Yep.

Yeah.

So to close, maybe you could did 10 years at Central City, and I'm assuming you're hoping for another 20.

Yeah.

But what do you like, what do you foresee in the next 10 years?

What are you hoping for?

Yeah.

With for your church in the next 10 years and you.

I I um I I think for the first 10 years of pastoring, it has been a lot of um, like I like to say mom and pop style shop church, you know.

Yeah.

My wife and I doing a lot of things um and doing okay, doing well.

Um, but I'm really excited about seeing other people step into um seeing other saints in the work of ministry.

Yeah um whether that's you know, more m seeing other people teach at the church or um starting new ministries at the church or hearing about what they're doing in their workplace or in their home or their neighborhood or whatever it might be.

Um I really want to see um maybe it's just because it's been on my mind so much with this new vision and mission values, I just I want to see God's people like walking boldly in their their purpose.

Um and if that means that we're helping people just understand how to lead Bible studies at their their work during lunchtime, then that's amazing.

Um if it's uh supporting like giving out away everything that we have that we're trying to, you know, incorporate into our church and us being a resource to the greater church in Tucson, then I'm all for that.

You know, we've got musicians who are like, hey, somebody's asking if I can play at this church.

I'm like, yeah, please go go play at that church, you know, use the gifts that you have.

Um but I again I'm I'm not a visionary, and so I often think about what's right in front of me right now.

Yeah, but I definitely love the church.

Uh I love our church.

I have no desire to go anywhere else right now.

It would actually be very painful to leave our church family because we have just so many deep roots and connections.

There.

I don't know if you've heard this growing up or coming into ministry, but we were told by pastors like, don't make friends with people in your church.

Yeah.

And that was just so weird to us because we were, you know, the worship leaders with lots of friends, and then the pastors, it was weird to be like, we just can't be friends with them anymore.

And so we have deep friendships.

And a lot of pastors we hear say like ministry is lonely.

Yeah.

And we just don't feel that at all.

Yeah.

Um, because we're we're in those deep relationships.

Yeah, no, I think that's that's really true.

I mean, I think I think what they're trying to warn against is what I have experienced, which is that if you're gonna form those deep friendships, you're gonna get wounded in a deeper way.

That's all friendships, it is, right?

Yeah.

It's just that you become the center part, right?

You know, it's more more stabs, yeah, yeah, in a sense, because it's you have this interlacing of both pastoral and friendship with people.

Well, but it makes it a little more complicated, but no, I totally agree with you.

When people ask me, well, who holds you, like, where's your accountability?

Who do you share?

I'm like, I mean, I'm usually like, Well, who don't I do that?

Yeah, in a sense, I have like a good set of people who know everything about me.

Yeah.

And are able to hold me accountable.

And you know, it's not it's hard, it's a hard thing.

It's messy, it's messy, but it's good, it's really rich.

Yeah, that's awesome.

Yeah.

Well, I I'm excited um just to have people listen to the podcast, but um, I'm also just excited for maybe the slow movement of the spirit and joining our churches a little bit more together.

Yeah, that'd be cool.

Walking alongside each other on Karen for Tucson.

Lots of similarities and I think more of what just the greater church needs.

Not that we're better in any way, but there's uh I think there's something rich in the pace of church that uh our churches have.

Um and it's not so much about the blitz and the glam and all that kind of stuff.

It's just in fact the last week of our detox series is all about pace and endurance and and how how how do we actually run the long haul to the very end.

Yeah.

And I yeah, I think we we need more of that.

Yeah.

Well, thank you so much for for talking about yourself.

Yep.

Yeah, thank you.

For a very long period of time.

I'm gonna go like lock myself in my bedroom after this and just decompress.

I'll apologize to the net for that.

But thank you for having me.

Yeah, this is the first first podcast interview I've ever done, and so I'm glad I got to do with you.

That's awesome.

Yeah, yeah.

We okay, cool.

That's we'll end here.

If you've actually if you got questions for Pastor Kai, you can email us at uh villagers online at gmail or healing the city at gmail, or write on these podcasts that says uh write a comment or whatever, email, and it immediately goes to our big board of yeah.

Anyway, we'll get your message.

So send us your message and uh we'll pass it on and maybe it'll give us another reason to have you back.

That'd be great.

Cool.

Thank you.

Thanks again.