EP010: Eric Geiger & Talking to Leadership About Church Online

Well, hello there. Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. My name is Jeff, and I'm glad you're

joining us again today. This is episode 10. This is a unique episode, a little different than

maybe some of the ways we've done in the past. You see, back in episode 9,

Ray DeArmas, online pastor at Christ Fellowship, and myself were having a long conversation with

lead pastor Eric Geiger from Mariner's Church out in California. And we were wrapping up the

episode. It was a great episode in context of talking about omni-church and maybe even

omni-channel, omni-communications, omni-church, uniting church online and physical campuses

online in context of communication. Eric Geiger actually brought up a new term, at least a new

term to me, honestly, a unified church, a unified commerce, where it actually more tightly intertwines

things, not just from a communications perspective, but actually into a more deeper, much more

richer ministry mindset, where the church, where the company physically interacts in physical

space or virtual space the same way. Great concept, loved it. And so if you're interested

in more of that, check out episode 9. But at the end of the episode, I asked Eric Geiger a

question. I thought I was landing the plane, and I asked a simple question. When you're making

a decision about something in context of church online, what insight do you take? As leaders

underneath you, how can we communicate effectively to you, to show you, to convince you, to give you

information towards what would lead you as a lead pastor to make a decision at this level?

And honestly, I was surprised that 30 minutes later, we were still talking at that one answer. And so

rather than to pile it into one episode, we broke it up into two. So what you're listening to here is

Eric Geiger, lead pastor for Mariner's Church in California, Ray DeArmis, online pastor at Christ

Fellowship in Miami, as well as myself, Jeff with the Church Digital, in a simple conversation, how to

talk to your leadership about church online. Here you go. How do you, as a lead pastor,

Mariner's is huge. Like in just in the context of size, California, you've got a wide varying range

of people that attend different demographics, different. How do you make a decision for something

like this? Like theologically, I'm agreeing with this. I'm not agreeing with this. Once again,

I'm not, I don't want to put you on the spot for a decision and a direction, but more of what

decisions, because realize the people that are listening to this are technical people that need

to convince someone like you of the way that they think. And so coach me through here. How can we

connect with, with you as, as a high level leader to show you some of these things to, to get you to

understand? That's a great question, man. All right. So you're saying that most people are listening

right now are, are guys, girls like you and Ray, and how do they, how do they have a combo with a

senior pastor, executive pastor to push the ball a little further down the, down the field?

Yes, sir.

Okay. I, I, it, you know, it always depends on how, how, um, compelled the leader is by data,

but if the leader is compelled by data, the data that you have at your disposal is staggeringly

compelling right now on a couple of things. The number of people who are, who are watching services

online, they are, it is really going, it is really increasing really high. Uh, I mean,

we might be up like 45% on any given weekend right now online compared to the previous year.

That's, I mean, how do you not pay attention to that? And then it's like, okay, do you not want to,

what are we going to do with all of these people? You know, are there, they are watching and they're

not, these aren't people just hitting, hitting the site, you know? And, oh, and these aren't people

who are watching like on Tuesday night. These are people watching the live stream, which to me,

that's a different thing because if you're watching on Tuesday night, it might be my mom,

you know, who's already put, which she does watch every week. Um, she's plugged into another church.

I don't, I don't feel any responsibility for her. I mean, I do as my mom, but not as a,

not as someone, she's already in plugged into a church, right? But the people who watch live on

Sunday morning or Saturday night, that's a different thing. I mean, I'm, are they plugged in? Are they

not plugged into a church? Are they plugged into our church? Who are these people? Eric, look at how

many people watched last week during church. And then, you know, here's where they're from. Eric,

check it out. They are from, you know, X percent are from like within a 10 mile radius. I mean,

I think that would get, that would get attention big time. Where, so one of the things that, that

you, you've talked about needing, and you said the word, I don't remember if it was discipleship

process or discipleship pathway, like, okay, who are these people? Uh, the Sunday morning

attenders, the live ones. Okay. There's some legitimacy in here. Um, this, so they're not attending

church somewhere else since the majority of churches are Sunday. So we need to try to, do you,

do you feel accountability for those? I don't even know if I said that word right. Do you feel

accountability for those just within the 10 mile or do you define as, as opportunities even outside of

that 10 mile? Yeah, that's a good question. And I think, I think a team's got to wrestle with that.

Um, I don't feel, uh, I feel, I feel a very specific burden for orange County for me. So there,

but there's some churches that, that they're going to have a, um, a broader perspective, you know,

like a life church, for example, they're going to, they're going to, they're going to feel like,

I mean, they have campuses all over congregations all over. Um, I'm going to view the stats within

Orange County differently than I'm going to view the stats outside of Orange County. We don't,

we don't have any intention to expand outside of what we want to be for this cat, you know,

3.4 million people or 3.2 million people that live here, half who don't have any connection to a

church. That's, that's, that's really where, where we're talking and praying. So because of that,

and I would view those stats through that lens. Yeah. Orange County is a very diverse area, right?

Much like, you know, the context that we work together in here in Miami. Are you finding that

a lot of folks are sharing and spreading, uh, what you guys are doing beyond the borders of Orange

County? Because I imagine it's a very diverse community from what, from a few times that I've

been, you know, in the LA area or even close to it, or maybe I'm, I'm off, uh, just looking at some

of the demographics, but I see just tremendous potential for, for some of that content just

getting out there simply because of, uh, the unique environment that you guys are in.

So you're talking about like, like in Miami, you'd have someone who's from Columbia who listens to a

sermon and they're, they're, they're sharing it with like family back in Columbia. Right.

Yeah. And so you're right. There's diversity here that way. So Irvine's like 44% Asian. So,

um, you know, multiple different generations of that, but, but there's definitely

relationships outside of this area, you know, so, um, I don't know if, if we've tracked, uh, the sharing

yet of, you know, who's, who's sending a message or who's, uh, sharing a link. Are you, how are you

tracking that now, right? We are, we are. Um, and we've been since Jeff's been here, um, because

there've been a whole lot of different analytics that we've been able to pull. Um, and even people

just kind of interacting with us on a global scale this last week, we had a connection card in

from a Rwanda of somebody who wants to start a small group, uh, there. And so there's missional

implications. There's all sorts of things that kind of happen there when, when that does happen

as a result of people interacting with us in different environments. And then, you know,

obviously people sharing content to sharing content, uh, how are you, how are you tracking

if you're sharing content like Facebook shares or what are you looking at? Uh, we take a look at

Facebook shares. Uh, we can take a look and see how links, uh, kind of bounce around. Um,

and then of course we see where some of the different views come from. And then when they

reach out to us, that's where we get a definite sense of, Hey, how'd you hear about us? And how did

this happen? And it spurs on a lot more of a detailed conversation. Sometimes it's family

and sometimes it's a friend and sometimes it's, man, I Googled church and your name, your name

popped up. And this is how I started interacting with your content. I don't live in a place where

there's a great theology or where there's a great content popping up, uh, church wise. And so I

started interacting with you guys and this is how I came about it. Rob, a small group leaders. Oh,

I'm sorry. Rob, a small group leader, uh, um, that, that Jeff helped, uh, bring up in disciple.

And now he's underneath my care. He's leading an online group from the UK, but he actually found us

because his company headquarters was here in Miami down the street from our West Kendall campus and

took that back with him. So there's so many different ways that that comes in. Yeah. That's

cool. I mean, I would love to know, again, you wrestled with the missiology. Like I want the message

shared and then the ecclesiology, uh, do I want to, do I want to assume spiritual responsibility for

people there or help those people get connected to a church right there? Right. Cause we don't have

a church there. I would not want to assume shepherding responsibility there, but I want to,

but I want to do, you know, I want the message out. I'd want to try to help them get connected to a

church there, you know? Yes. But, but I realized that everyone views that differently. So I'm not

cracking on, on that way. I just, I'm glad you have a strategy. Yeah. And for us, um, it's been a

connection first kind of a strategy to help them get connected locally. Um, that's where Jay Cranda,

who's been on a past episode of the podcast has been helpful. He's the, he's the online pastor over

at Saddleback where he looks at things through an online to offline, uh, kind of mode of trying to help

people in to get into offline community relationships, whether that's connecting them to a local church

or a local Christian community in their area, trying to help them find a place to get shepherded and not

just purely keep them here online. But sometimes, uh, to your point, and, and this is where the

relationship begins, where that transitions onto and how we can help them get connected in that

community. That's kind of how we viewed the road for them. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, you do a great job when I,

I've watched you Ray on the, um, on, on CF Miami, on the online thing, you know, getting the, doing the

connect card and all, how many people a week fill that out? It averages maybe around six or seven

right now a week. And so I don't want to, you know, it's funny because, and different churches

experience this out of like the quote unquote thousands of views that you get. Um, sometimes

you'll get X amount of interactions. And for us, those interactions become gold. They become

valuable in terms of helping them take someone's filling that out online. It, it, it, like they

really are one, one, some kind of communication. Yeah. They, they want to reach out to us in some

kind of way. And for us, we take that and we run with it as much as they'll allow us. Um, which is

why even things is even being specific in terms of, we try to make a lot of those fields required,

whereas somebody may fill out a connection card at a location, right. And they may just put their name

and drop it in the plate. We're looking for contact information in the sense of driving towards,

you know, in the workforce or in the Salesforce, they might look at it as a lead. We see it as

gold in the same kind of way where we're trying to get their contact information so that we can help

them get connected as quickly as possible. So we, that's why we make a strong drive beginning of

the broadcast, mid broadcast and end broadcast to make sure and ask for that. And there are even times

where I've thought of throughout the message, kind of doing pop-ups and just saying, Hey, if you're

just tapping in and joining us in the live stream or whatever, make sure and stop by

fmimey.org/connect and get connected with us so that we can help you take that next step on there.

And, uh, I'm sorry to hijack the, the, uh, broadcast, Jeff, go for it. I'm asking questions

that I think, uh, you know, yeah, you set me off earlier by saying, Hey, what does senior pastors

want to know? So this is kind of, listen, this is gold. Keep going, man. This is the kind of stuff

I want to know. Um, what, what do you guys find in, in terms of, uh, and this would be the stat

I'm curious about as I'm, as, as I'm looking for active versus passive, you know, cause I guess

the fear of online is man, they're, you know, they're, they're doing four things while they're

watching, you know? Um, and I don't even know how you would gauge that. So this is the only one I can

think of is how are, um, like in a, in an hour and 10 service an hour and 10, what percentage

are tapped in, you know, for an hour, hour, more of that. And what, what, what are there

just for like three or four minutes of the, you know, what percentage of the total stat is there?

You can tell me they, they showed up, they were there on time and they stayed the thing.

Like it looked like this was their service. Yeah. Um, in my experience, it's not a lot that

will tap in for the entire thing. Um, it's not, it's not a lot. No. And here's, and here's kind

of thing. Cause you're looking at long form content. And, and so some folks will check in and check out

as they go along. Uh, and we'll see that in a given live stream where folks will show up for

whatever reason, check out for a moment, check back in, check back out. And so there's been different

implications for that. Um, as far as how that works out in terms of the live stream. And then for

on demand content, which there's two different strategies, as far as how that works, I think

of the way that I personally listen to podcasts. And then I talk to people as far as how they engage

with the online service. Sometimes they'll take it in bites, almost like points in the message.

Like on drive time, I'm catching point a I'm getting home. I'm turning on the TV,

turn on my Apple TV, YouTube, get to point B, you know, fast forward. I get there. Hey,

wife's making dinner, come back in for point C or something along those lines.

So they are tapping in continually through the content, but not, and that's the thing they're

coming back in at different points. And so they might not sit there and watch it all in one

particular showing, but they're checking in and checking out in different portions,

which even has me considering, uh, chopping up different versions of the content and making

it available in that kind of way. Yes. That's so that people can digest it in that kind of way.

Yeah. I've got a pastor right now that I'm talking to about doing church online and his goal is to

record a five to 10 minute sermon in his house, in a studio he's got set up on Thursday night.

And so for him, it's like, I'm going to record this for online. And rather than broadcasting the

live thing, this is the message that he's going to send out because it's the same kind of like shorter

conversion of the content or a whole different message. He, you know, it's the same message.

Um, you know, it's, it's a point one, two, three cutout point two. And I'm like, well,

if you do that, you're murdering it. And he's like, well, I can take out some of the stories and,

and adjusting it. And so it's the same message called a condensed version, um, that that's more

tailored for the online audience. Um, but, and realizing, you know, and Eric, you know, this,

uh, just like you're going to have people that aren't going to connect in the audience,

uh, are online. Your audience is, is disconnected as well. That guy in the back row that's half

asleep is, is really half asleep. No, I get it. That's what I'm saying. I want to be consistent

on the, uh, expectations, you know, like I don't want to put a harder burden on online than I put

on, but I just, I want someone to give me the data. So you're asking, you know, how does somebody lead

up to the senior pastor helping me see that would, would, would, would get my attention, you know?

Yeah. It's go ahead and go ahead, Ray. I was going to say, um, Jay Crand, I'm going to reference him

again, just cause he recently put out like a little blog post on addressing the three audiences as well,

and taking a look at who's joining you in the room, who's joining you in the live stream, and who's

joining you on demand later on in terms of how you're addressing them in your, in your sermon context

as well, knowing that your people are engaging you in so many different ways. Um, and kind of

even finding small tidbits, not just the beginning of the message in terms of greeting them, but

finding different ways to acknowledge them. I've heard Andy Stanley do this on and off in his messages,

where sometimes he'll even say, Hey, some of you are listening to me right now. And you need to go

talk to your real pastor. You know, the guy that's actually there at your church, you're listening to

me online. And, and, and, and so he'll, he'll make your ears perk up and that kind of way of,

oh, he's talking to me or, Hey, he's talking to me while I'm in my car or something like that.

Uh, yeah, that's good. I, I, I, I have, I have not done a good job here. Jeff, you know,

we did it in Miami. I did get good at addressing the campuses.

I got good at that. I got good at looking at the camera and Hey, I, you know, Ray,

you were at Coral Gate. You know, I got good at talking to Gables or talking to Wes Kendall.

I haven't gotten, I have not developed the discipline yet of talking to the online group.

I've not done good at that yet. I will say, uh, that, that it does help. Absolutely. Um, if you're,

so if you're looking at the data that Jeff's talking about, and we've seen this, um, like a couple

weeks ago, I acknowledged, Hey, we got a lot of folks watching this in South Carolina. Uh,

we want to give you guys a shout out little things like that. All of a sudden their, their attention

perks up, man. I'm here. Is that like all Rick's old high school buddies sitting around?

You know, there is, there's a girl, I don't know if she's still doing it, but there was a woman who

lived in Rock Hill, South Carolina that was leading an online small group. Now it wasn't from Rick's

church. She was from Miami who moved to Rock Hill and then ended up, and she was leading an online

small group with her friends and in her, and her family, Miami and Rock Hill was kind of a blended

group. That's weird, dude. Miami and Rock Hill, that's like the two biggest differences.

Who would have thought? And just transparently what I did, Hey Rick, you're never going to believe this.

And I told him that story. I'm forwarding emails because I'm trying to get him as, as, as I'm online

pastor, he's pastor, Rick, understand there's a story here. There's a soul. There's a person here

that's connected to our church in your hometown. And, and as much as data plays a part of it,

there's also a face to that data now. Yeah, no, that's good. Now that's good.

Uh, so that's a good, that's a better answer. So bring data, but bring some stories too.

Absolutely. The stories that once, and when, once you start engaging the miracle, the stories start

piling up, they start coming in as far as, Hey, I'm watching you. I'm from here. Thank you so much.

And even to the point, and, um, as you start to sprawl out in your community, we've seen this,

Eric, you know, how much we wanted to like focus in on Dade County.

Yes. Uh, but we had, we have a lot of people on that Broward line, um, who, who will drive down

to Christ fellowship, but then this also became a way for them to connect on, on a regular basis.

And there are times where, Hey, to, to shepherd them, I've driven up there to provide some counseling

or some different stuff just because there's, I'm still, I guess I'm still the same guy.

Cause I, you just said that. I remember, I guess I was, I was that way in Miami too. I was like, no,

no, no, we're only going to be Miami Dade. We're only going to be Miami Dade. I guess that's,

that's, I told a pastor this, this week and it was funny. He's like, I totally agree with that.

And then I said it to him again. And he's like, I'm not sure if this is what I said. I said,

you got to realize that it may be better for that woman who's sitting in your pew in at your church

right now to stay at home and invite 10 of her friends over to watch this church service on her

TV. And the, and the pastor's like, that's awesome. That's great. And I'm like, wait,

you say that. And I hear that a lot, but when push comes to shove, there's something that stops us

from releasing people out of our buildings to go do this in the neighborhoods, in their, in the homes

where they are, because we, there's still this innate thing that drives us to gather them in.

And to me, that's the thing that, that church online does is it gives the church permission

to release people into communities, to release people to where they are. Instead it's, it's the

go and do instead of come and see. Yeah. I, I think the, um, it goes back to that theological

conversation. If you are, if you, if you can't get over the theological hurdle, I respect you,

but if you, if you're over the theological hurdle, then you really are asking a philosophical, like,

which do you prefer seeing them or, or knowing this other thing happening, you know? So I think

that's a wise way to put it, Jeff. That's good. That's awesome. Um, man, what's next? We just

totally went through everything and I know it's been a, it's been a long podcast, but this has been

really good stuff. Um, man, uh, Eric, I just, I miss you, man. I'm dude, I mean, I miss, I miss

these kinds of convos with you, man. We always did have, we always went deep real fast.

I tell you what I remember. I, I remember the first night I met you and you do at the airport.

Was it the night that you drove me around at two in the morning buying a socks?

A suit. Yeah. Whatever. Um, long story short, I got to tell the story, but this is just classic

for us. Eric, I was, I was at Christ fellowship. I think it was first Baptist.

No, it was first Baptist Pride. It was first Baptist Pride at the time.

Yeah. Pride. Yeah. Yeah. And so like I, the church was, um, Eric was coming in to, to preach

in view of a call and I was like student intern or something. And they were like, Hey, Jeff's young.

Eric's young, Jeff, go pick up Eric and his wife at the airport. And that was Saturday night.

Yep. And, uh, man, it was like, what your, your flight was delayed. Yeah. I think, I think

it finally landed at like 1am or something like that. Yeah. And my luggage wasn't there.

And the luggage was gone. And so like, he's supposed to be preaching at eight hours. Um, and doesn't

have a suit, doesn't have anything. And he's like flew in from vacation wearing a Hawaiian shirt

and, and, and, and he's like, what do I do? And I'm like, it was funny. It was, I was

living at my parents at the time. My wife was on a mission trip. Uh, my house was being

built. So that's why I met my parents. My parents were gone. And I'm like, dude, come

stay at my parents' house. You can sleep in their bed. And, and, you know, my dad, who's

a lot larger than Eric was, you know, hopefully maybe you can find the suit or something that'll

work there. Cause we ended up going to like what Walmart at 1am or 2am to buy socks and

underwear. Dude, that's how you're going to get the suit from Walmart. I was like, Whoa,

that had to be a bad suit, man. I, I, I, I literally preached in Walmart clothes in view

of a call, uh, after sleeping in Jeff's dad's bed, but that must've been a balling sermon.

I want to tell this part of the story. Cause Eric, I don't know that I've ever told you this

in my heart, there was something that was stirring. Right. And I remember this like clear

before that, before I went and picked you up at the airport. And I can remember sitting

at home in my father's den, which was part of the area that we were living in. And, and I was

praying for you and I was praying for the, the relationship that you and I would have. I was

praying for the relationship and the impact that you would have at that church. And, and I can tell

you Christ fellowship is still has your touch on it is still impacted by you. My life directly,

the person that I am today and how I lead and manage and the stuff that I'm saying is, is directly

in relation to our experiences together for that short, long time. So, uh, you know, the good and

the bad, the plus and the minus at the end of the day, man, I, I love you for many, many reasons.

Dude, I love you, man. That means a ton. I love to work with both you guys. And I I've told people

this, uh, about Jeff and gosh, I, we broke a lot of rules launching, launching campuses with

volunteers. I mean, shoestring budgets and all of us had multiple hats. My man, Jeff Reed was

responsible on a part-time basis to launch all of the camp. I mean, I can't even imagine that I would

ask somebody to do that now. Um, if I showed up at our staff today and said, we're going to hire a

part-time guy who's going to run all of this stuff, they would be like, what? And I mean, and bro,

you built volunteer teams and, and you were a make it happen guy. And, uh, it was, it was an incredible

run, man. I look back and I have just such, such great memories. All right. Hey, so, um, Hey Ray,

as, as we're closing up, any, any thoughts? Absolutely. Uh, Eric, you hit it right on the

head, you know, uh, as far as some of the theological implications and questions that

we're going to have moving forward and encouraging pastors to take practical steps and to reconsider

as far as, um, taking the content that they're creating and putting it out there. I really

appreciate you encouraging with that. And for any of you out there who are tinkering with, you know,

with church online or with putting your services online or whatever else, bring your pastor the

data, talk to them, uh, let them know that there's great possibilities out there. Love what Eric had

to share. That was great. Hey, I'm curious on, on the, on the guys that you're talking to and who

are in the roles that you guys are in and have been in, um, how much percent of their role is

technical and how much percent of their role is pastoral. And, you know, I know that there's tools

like you mentioned, Jeff, that are like Google analytics. Um, you know, they obviously they don't

have to Google or run the analytics for you, but they still have to understand what you said a moment

ago of like, I mean, you said it like it's no big deal. You know, all they got to do is grab some

code, put it on their website. And, you know, for a lot of senior pastors that don't, that don't even,

that's, that's like another language. So, yeah. So the church dot digital, go to your web browser,

church period digital. Now, um, here, here's the D here's in the, uh, we were talking about this

with Cranda maybe a month ago, a couple months ago. Um, everybody in an online environment,

there's only like 20 people who are dedicated in the country to online. Even Ray himself is,

is shared context where he's doing online, but he's doing a bunch of other roles with digital

strategy and things like that. And so you're saying there's only 20 pastors in America that are,

that are fully dedicated online. Yes. Yeah. And I've actually, that number has come from two

different sources. So that's just not me pulling it up. And so, but as, as a result of that,

it's, it's a shared role between like a student guy and online or a worship guy and online or

what's your second hat. So my second hat, I oversee all things web and digital here now. Um,

everything from app development to, uh, we're going to be launching off a new version of our website soon

to, to just some different stuff. And, and even then I've been brought in a whole bunch on the

creative side, everything from writing a lot of the background to shaping our environments because

of its implications for what it would mean for online. And so my seat at that table has become

very valuable because we're, we're not just thinking of the people in the room. We're thinking

about the campuses and then we're thinking about how it ports out to everybody else, uh, who's watching

us. So when it comes to that sitting, sitting in those, uh, meetings, uh, having an ability to help

shape those things is crucial. So this way, when I'm looking at the service on Sunday morning,

I'm not surprised by a whole bunch, or I'm not saying, Hey guys, this is very disengaging

for thousands of people who are watching us. Uh, we have to do a better job of, of engaging them,

of making sure that we are, uh, not, not guiding the service towards them, but at least including

them or thinking of them in some kind of way. Yeah. So that's where that's becoming a valuable.

And then the last thing is, is, um, mobile has become so crucial in terms of how people are

engaging our church. Right. For sure. Majority of people who are engaging, not just our website,

but our content in general, aren't doing it, you know, on a desktop or a laptop. Like what we're all

doing now is we record this podcast. They're doing it through a mobile device. And so I'm even

reorienting a lot of our strategy as far as being more and more oriented towards the mobile device.

Uh, and just being part of those conversations moving forward. It's, it's big.

That's good. So in your role, do you could, do you know how to like pull the Google analytics or you

haven't get somebody else to do that? It's, it's both. And if something kind of jumps up over my

head, I'll reach out to a coder or something, uh, or somebody who's versed in this and the code

community has grown huge in Miami. Uh, so we're even, you know, when I'm visiting, when I, when I go

back to my campus at Coral Gables or when I'm visiting campuses, I'll have people come up to me who

come out of that school saying, Hey, if you guys ever need any help, just give me a call.

And that's become such a great resource. And it helps them feel like they've got a place where

they can serve and use their gifts.

So are volunteers being engaged in that at CF?

Absolutely. Uh, it's been very helpful for us and very helpful for me because, you know, there's

been a lot of new in terms of jumping into this role wholeheartedly. There's been a lot of new and

having people help who help speak the language and help decodify. Cause you remember when I was,

when I was interning at Christ fellowship, I worked at the Apple store. So there was a lot.

I remember that dude. Yeah. So I already had like a lot of background that God was guiding things that

I had no idea. You and Jeff were Apple snobs. Absolutely. Hey, I totally represent that. No,

that that's fine. Hey, Jeff, this ties into one more thing you asked earlier. Uh, you're at,

you asked like, how does a guy in your role get to this in your pastor? Uh, Ray, this is big right

here. Talk about the number of people in the church who, who, uh, would love to volunteer in

this kind of role, who have technical abilities in this role. They're wondering if they're wondering

if their, uh, craft can be used for the kingdom. Absolutely. You would, you would pull my heart at

that point. Cause I would feel like, man, I'm preaching these, I'm preaching these folks that,

that their work can be sacred and they have these, they have these, um, these great gifts. Are we

giving them a chance to use it? That's absolutely correct. And what, what I found is it's, it's

created a new way to build inroads towards some of those other conversations. And, um, this is

something else that would probably catch a lot of senior pastors' attentions, particularly with men.

This has become a great way to build in-road conversations with them because there are a

lot of men going into this field. So into, into the, uh, tech field like that. Yeah, correct.

Geiger, any closing thoughts? 20 seconds. What do you got?

Uh, we're, we're, we're in a great day where the tool, more and more tools are available to us and

they've been, um, commoditized, meaning they're not as expensive as they used to be. So we could,

we could leverage these tools for, for the gospel.

Absolutely. Hey, well, it's a, man, it's been a pleasure to have you on, uh, Eric Geiger Mariners.

If people want to follow you online or in blog, like, like where are you at?

Kind of list that out for us. Uh, I, I blog is, is, uh, ericgeiger.com. That's, that's,

that's where I put new content. All right. So everybody can find you at ericgeiger.com.

Uh, man for Eric, for Ray, uh, my name is Jeff. It has been a pleasure to be here with you today.

Thanks. And, uh, we'll see you next time here at the church digital podcast. You all have a good day.