EP014: DJ Soto & Planting a Church in Virtual Reality

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. My name is Jeff Reed, and I'm excited about today's episode

because I'm featuring someone that's more aggressive in technology than I am myself.

It's rare when we find these people. I've been accused of being cutting-edge, even bleeding-edge

technology, and this person here has gone whole hog, and I am excited to have this conversation

with him. DJ Soto of VR Church. He literally plants a church in virtual reality. Not a physical

church, but a virtual church in virtual reality. He's been featured in Wired Magazine, BBC, as well

as recently on Comedy Central. They did a shtick on him because he was baptizing people virtually,

actually doing the ordinances in VR, and lives are being changed in VR, and DJ's got these stories

that he's sharing and wanting to talk about. And so here's just a little sneak peek of some of the

stuff that I learned today. Here's what I found out. Number one, VR baptisms count. So you can go and

write that down wherever you are in your podcast driving. Number one, VR baptisms count. Number two,

physical church has a different set of rules than church online. We all know that, online church

listeners, you got that. Here's what I didn't know. VR church has a different set of rules than digital

church, church online, than doing the physical. Like, it's just, it's this whole other deal,

and I loved unpacking this. And I learned the third thing, but you know what, you're going to have to

listen to the podcast because I'm not even going to get into it here in this intro. So let me get out

of the way and join in as DJ Soto, Rady Armis from Christ Fellowship Miami, of course, and myself,

sit down and have a conversation about the theology and the community centered around virtual reality.

Here you go. We met at Church IT Conference, I guess it was about a year ago up in Washington, D.C.

And I was really just encouraged by the breakout session that you led through there and how you

were showing the community and a lot of that. So anyway, that's just really what we wanted to get

into and flesh out. And so Ray and I'll just be dialoguing kind of with you and we'll see where

we get to. So yeah, sounds good. Is that okay? Is that good? Yeah. And Ray, where are you from?

Miami, Florida, like Jeff, I'm here. I'm the church online pastor at Christ Fellowship Miami.

That's what I do. Just love, got a great love for tech, for tech community, and just how God's

bringing folks together through these different avenues. I've actually been following some of the

stuff that you've been doing. So I'm really excited to just hear from, hear straight from the horse's

mouth as far as like how God's been using your stuff. And, and I just think it's amazing. So.

And then just out of curiosity, so Christ Church, do they adopt the idea that an attendee can be

an online attendee or? They still struggle through that. So just being completely honest with like

they still struggle through that. Jeff will tell you because Jeff helped launch like what we have

here as far as church online. And it's, it's a hard struggle here because even our, like our senior

pastor is so not tech oriented, you know, and he'll be the first to tell you, you know,

he's like basically shut off almost all tech functions off of his iPhone. Like he's got an

iPhone, but you know, even things like MMS don't even go through because he shut them all

down. And so these are still things that, that he struggles through.

Yeah. And this is not, I mean, I don't know your pastor, so this is not a criticism towards

him at all. What I find is like, you know, senior leadership is, has been educated in like a seminary

system that, you know, was pre-digital. And so it'd be interesting to see what happens with the

graduates as, as of late, you know, I haven't really kept up with seminaries and their curriculum and,

and how they're approaching online church, but ministry. But so, yeah, I think there's, yeah,

like you said, it's generational. I think it's educational. That construct wasn't even

part of the conversation. So they'd be there, had to, you know, grown into it, adapt into it.

Right. I think some have, many haven't. And so you see the expressions that, so I think it's hard

for them, especially the ones that want to get into online ministry. They want to, but there's like,

you know, theological and ecclesiological, I don't know, I was going to say strongholds,

but just like, you know, from seminary, that's tough to, tough to shake.

You know, DK, a lot of them are still struggling through on that level. They're still struggling

through multi-site. So they're like two generations behind in regards to struggling through what's

really, what's a church and what's not a church. They're still struggling through, well, is a campus

like part of a church? Is it a separate church? But when I hear like, like certain folks struggle

through whether or not a campus is a church, you know, that, that's where I'm like, oh no, then,

then you're not even there to discuss online community. You're still struggling on somebody showing

up in person, but the guy on stage who never really even interacts with people in a one-on-one,

whether that's like church community coming together, then you're never really going to buy into the

real community that's happening here.

Eric Geiger, Mariner's Church, I think it was like episode 11 and nine or 10. And he really delved into like

the theological aspects. We came on, thought we were talking about Omni Church. And instead he just

went theological, defining ecclesia. And it was a really good conversation.

Honestly, from Eric Geiger, who traditionally, you know, struggles with some of the technological aspects

and in context, it was a really heartfelt conversation wrestling with us. So like, and here in DJ Soto,

obviously you're much more on the liberal side of defining what technology, how communities defined us.

Like, how do you define church? How do you define community? What does that look like in the VR space?

Yeah. So I think, you know, there's like the broad view of it for me has been, has been a journey. So I

might, let me give you a long answer here. The journey for me was, you know, my wife and I were part of the

ministry and we left that denomination because we felt like God wanting us to seek something new

spiritually. So when we left that denomination, there was kind of a, like a desert period, so to speak,

where, you know, we weren't going to church. We actually kind of didn't even want to go to church.

We just had, we're kind of burned out by religion and that type of thing. So what happened for us is

we started experiencing online church and this is back, I don't know, mid 2005, 2006, somewhere around

there, where I experienced liquid church. It was like an online church in New Jersey. And I think life

church and I started experiencing that spiritual community online, the worship, the music, the chat,

and looking back, those are memorable moments. I still have those, that memory imprinted in my mind,

that experience in that 2d environment. And so I think 2019, you know, you're, you know, we,

I'm the lead pastor of a church in virtual reality. For me, that conversation about, is this

the quote unquote valid happened like 10 years ago, you know, 10 to 12 years ago when experiencing

those online churches. I think in 2010 ish, the church that I was a part of, I helped them launch

a streaming or online, they wouldn't call it an online campus. I think they struggled with that, but

it was, you know, you know, video player, live feed, chat interface. And I saw the ministry happened

there as well. So I think for me, it was, it was like a long time ago where it just came to the

conclusion very quickly, seeing the stories, seeing the life change of me, like changing, like me

personally through online ministry. And really was just very, just came to the very good conclusion

that online ministry is for me. And, and that just naturally led into VR. So there wasn't, maybe there

was a little bit, but not much where, when VR came that I'd had to question whether this was

an experience to be had or a church experience. I just, I just kind of just dove right into it. I

think I'd settled all those ecclesiological and theological things years before. And that was a

long kind of bird's eye view. I think to the specifically to your question for me is when Jesus

says where, where two or three are gathered, there I am in the midst, in my name, there I am in the

midst of them. And if, if that's not church, then I don't know what is. And so when we gather in

virtual reality, and so when we, in that immersive 360 environment, and there's two or three of us,

and we're there in the name of Jesus, and Jesus is in the midst of us, then we're having church.

And then, because I don't, you know, I think many people, I think, you know, I don't know you guys,

but I would assume you would agree church is not a one hour event on a Sunday morning. I think church,

the church is the body. It's the ecclesia, it's, it's living that out. And it's interesting because

people do, you know, if you miss church on Sunday morning, well, you didn't go to church. That's kind

of the, the attitude or like maybe some of the baggage from previous years, but that's not the case

anymore, at least, you know, from as far as I'm concerned. And so yeah, and we've experienced God

in that environment. We just sense God's spirit in, in, in VR. And I know that's confusing for many

people. I think that if they're struggling with digital, like online streaming, online campuses,

they're going to struggle with VR. But what I think is going to happen is you're having this,

you had the physical experience and then I don't put this down in value, but just meaning an

interaction. You, you had online church or online platforms, not in value, but just you're taking

away the physical, right? And this is more chat interfaces and maybe Skype life groups, but now

you're going to see this curve go back up with VR because now we're in these 360, 360 immersive

environments where we're talking with each other, we're giving each other high fives, giving each

other hugs in church again. So there's this strange new technology that's like coming back up as far

as digital interactions. And that is, we've never seen before in history. So that's kind of the long,

medium and short version of it. Yeah, there was a lot right there. That, that, that was beautiful.

Thank you. But let's, let's, let's back up and kind of just fine tune in some things. So, cause you

made the joke about the one hour on Sunday and, and that's, that's the thing that, that, you know,

Ray and I, we just, we talk a lot about on, in the show where we're, we're spending all our attention,

all our time, all our energies towards that one hour on Sunday. And if you miss it, then, then,

then you're a heathen. Whereas Christ came for us 168 hours a week, more of a discipleship ideology

where it's more than just, you know, Sunday, 9am. Like what, what does that look like virtually now?

Like, and I don't, I'm going to confess, like I do, I want to get the Oculus Quest. I've been waiting

for that specific headset to come out. So my only point of reference in VR is like Stephen King's

lawnmower man. That's all I got. Okay. Like, I'm just, yeah. So, but in context of, so what is,

so the one hour Sunday, you know, I see the video clips. I've, you know, I've, I've read the article,

I've seen the photos. Most recently, you know, Wired Magazine, you had the thing. Most recently,

I think it was Christianity Today was talking about the baptism of, of a person in VR and,

and a lot of that, which what I've seen, but, and, and we can get there too, but like in a

discipleship perspective, like some of that, the, the one-on-one or the, the one-on-four,

the smaller groups, biblical community, like what does that model look like in, in context of VR?

Well, just to back up a little bit, it's kind of funny. You're talking about Wired and some other

things, like most recently talking about baptism was, was Comedy Central with Noah

Trevor, or Trevor Noah, is that his name? And that was pretty funny. They, they, I mean,

obviously they made fun of us quite a bit, but my favorite part was when they called me Pastor

Morpheus. I was like, okay, I'll take that. That's a fun, fun little statement there. But back when we

did baptisms years ago, I'm sure we'll touch on that, but there was a lot of, not a lot, but a

little bit of press about that. And I didn't think much about it. I was like, when we did it,

it wasn't on our radar that it would cause a little stir. And obviously it did. And then we did

another one recently, and for some reason it blew up even more. And so, you know,

things like being on BBC and just calls from all over the world to talk about what, because it's

another surge of people discovering virtual reality church. And so I think for us, if I can back up,

because I know you're talking about like discipleship and community. I just want, let me just talk about

the hardware and the tech, because I think people get the general idea. Oh, thanks. West. You can put this

right here. People get the general idea of what VR is, but you know, if you put on this headset and

this is the Oculus Rift S, this is the second, I don't know if it's second generation. It's like

maybe a 1.5 of their original Oculus. And when you put this on and it really overlays a new reality

over your eyes, which is hard to imagine. It'd be like if you put contact lenses in and it completely

changed everything that you saw. And so when I look up and down and left and right, I see this whole,

immersive environment around me. And, and, and perhaps your audience, you know, doesn't need

this, but I found recently that people still don't know what VR is. I was talking with a bunch of like

50 or 60 pastors from all, maybe it was from the Pacific Northwest. And some guy raised his hand,

he's like, is this, is VR like a Zoom call? And I was like, no, it's not. Let me start over. Right.

I didn't say it that way, but the point is, I don't think many people realize what, you know,

that you put this on and there's no shortage of like YouTube videos of people reacting to it,

like jumping back, falling over. It does something that a brain that I had a friend over here who put

it on and a dinosaur was coming at her and she like freaked out. Like, you know, it's fake,

but virtual reality is so immersive that it tricks the brain into thinking that it's real. And so what

you're going to hear a lot about VR is it feels real. And that's why people are reacting and

freaking out. So you put that on, you become an avatar. These versions of the Oculus have touch

controllers. So when I raise my hand, and this is important to talk about like discipleship and

immersion, like when I raise my hand in the real world, in the real world, or we don't say real world,

we say the physical world, because what we experience in VR is actually very real.

When I raise my hands in the physical world, my avatar does the same thing as digital hands

will raise up and we can wave, give each other high fives when I'm preaching on a Sunday. Like

they'll see all my gestures and they'll see my head turned. It's, it's, it's pretty crazy. This

is the Rift S. It connects to a computer, but this guy is the Oculus Quest. And for VR enthusiasts,

we believe this is like the first mainstream VR device that everyone should get. This is like,

you know, like the first couple iPhones took a little bit of, you know, kind of work out some

things and you got a really good functional iPhone. We've VR had a, you know, it was compelling and an

awesome experience, but it needed a few couple of tweaks. And we think that this is going to be the

one that really, I don't know, not necessarily say it's going to go mainstream, but it has the

potential for it. And it's definitely is so user-friendly to be able to use this. And it's

just as good as, as the Rift S that I showed you there. But so think about that. You're, you're

overlaying a new reality. You're creating avatars that are very lifelike. And these avatars are getting

more sophisticated. Like if you see some of my early images of VR church, it looked like, like

Nintendo, uh, what is it? The Wiis, those, those Mies characters, you know what I'm talking about?

Um, so it kind of looked like that and things are evolving where some of the latest videos I posted

is, is hype. I wouldn't say hyper-realistic, but very, uh, realistic skin tones. And at one point,

I think someone mentioned just a quick glance at the video. She thought it was real. And then,

you know, the, the brain like analyzed and said, Oh, this is a virtual thing. So it's, it's crazy how

it's going to be like that where you're going to walk and I'm going to, you know, see Jeff just as

he is, if that's the avatar he chose to be. Um, and so what that does for us in, in discipleship

and relationships in VR is that we're able to have, um, interactions. And so, uh, very similar to

like, if you would have discipleship or a small group in the physical world, uh, we do that in

virtual reality and it feels real. That's the thing you're going to hear me say, um, over and over

again. And so when we get together for, we have two small groups right now, uh, one on Tuesday,

one on Thursday, uh, led by different leaders. And so they'll get, they'll get together eight to 12

people. Um, and then they'll create an environment. They'll be on the moon. They'll be in a forest.

That's a whole other world of VR to talk about these experiences that you can have. Um, and yeah,

they'll like, if you're walking into a house for a small group and, you know, you greet each other,

you say hello, you, you know, uh, just have a conversation and you group up and talk. That's what's

happening in virtual reality. There really isn't much difference and the immersion makes it feel

real. And I think it's, um, yeah, it's good. It's a, it's a disruptive technology for sure. And

there's a lot to say about that, but that's like the fundamental element, fundamental elements of

like how we do small groups. Um, sometimes they're impromptu prayer, um, you know, sessions or prayer

meetings. Um, one thing that we get criticism for people say, well, won't people be fake because

they're, they're an avatar. They're, they're going to change their persona. And we actually found it to

be the complete opposite because of the avatar. There was a sense of anonymity and with that

anonymity came deep authenticity. So it's, it's nothing like I've ever seen before, um, in ministry.

I've been in ministry for over 20 years in some form or fashion, big, small churches and the,

the barrier for, um, whether, whether it's intimidation or, or fear of being judged,

that barrier just melts away so quickly in VR and people, I mean, I can tell you story after story.

My friend was watching me preach and he said, uh, some kids started talking to me about suicide

and I was like, he just met you. How, how is he talking to me about that? And I was like,

yeah, you take that one little story and multiply it times a hundred and, um, something about the

nature of the platform, uh, the, the anonymity, the avatar just leads to authenticity. So

discipleship, um, we can, there's very little pretense. So, you know, you know, sometimes

discipleship is this trusting the person developing that relationship, you know, that can be an

intimidating thing. And that does still exist. It's not that VR eliminates that, but it, for some

reason it melts that away very quickly. So when it comes to discipleships, relationships, we're

connecting, we're talking, um, and people are less afraid to just get to the heart of the matter,

the heart of the issues. And, and that's really kind of, I don't know, uh, magnified discipleship

for us. And it's, it's a, it's very beautiful actually to experience. So the anonymity almost

seems like, uh, because of the avatar to me, like the first thing that comes to mind is almost like

the experience that somebody gets when they walk into a Roman Catholic church and they sit in a

confessional and they've got a barrier between them. Right. I mean, does it seem like that where

it's like, because a barrier exists, you have the ability to be more open with another.

Yeah. I never thought of it about in that way, but that's a perfect example. I think that, um,

there's a sense of protection, you know, they're not judging me for the way I look or who I am or

who they know me to be and, you know, in my town or whatever. Um, they, I think that's a great way

to put it. They just feel comfortable because there is a little bit of protection there and people want

to talk about what's going on. You know, we've, we kind of hide those things. And, and I joke around

with some of my pastor friends, um, you know, I kind of like poked back a little bit and I said,

well, I think people are coming to your church as an avatar. They're, they're already projecting this

best self into your environment. Um, and so I poked back a little bit just for fun, but, uh, it kind of

makes a point that, um, we're all, um, projecting something. And so, um,

The, the people, the, the people who, who, who attend, who come, um, is, is it, you know, is it the

once or twice and they're gone? Is it, uh, like leaders? Is, is there long-term development where

people, people are regularly engaging? Like, uh, you know, I started to use the word avatar, but

like, what's the model for, for somebody that, that's, that, that attends, like what, what types

of profiles do you see coming out? Um, so one broad idea is that it's one big experiment. We

haven't like established models or, or, uh, concepts that have, you know, had been solidified. It's,

it's even constantly changing. Even recently, you know, we talked about, you know, uh, the comedy

central and the, uh, BBC stuff like that. Uh, let, let me give you a physical church example. What's

happened to VR church in the past couple of weeks would be like, let's say you're a hundred person

church, um, one week and then the next week you're a three, four hundred person church. So that's

basically what's literally happening right now in a real time. Um, and so I, I think we're just trying

to figure it all out. Uh, we thought we had to figure out like, oh, here's our large gatherings on

Sunday and now we have small groups. We're good. And then 300 more people come in. Um, and so now we're

like, we're just like scrambling to think about our systems and our structures about how can we

shepherd people? Well, how, how can we connect them to discipleship or leadership if they want

that? So we're in the middle of all that. As a matter of fact, what's happened in the past 10

days is we're immediately planning two more churches. So we have two church experiences,

church experiences on Sunday, uh, one for Europeans because of the time zone and one for North America.

And then the influx of new people has, we said, we have to plant at least two more churches. And so

that's what we're going to be. We're going to be a, um, you can think of it multi-site. They're all

going to have their different flavor there and they're in different metaverses. Um, and I don't

need to try to complicate the conversation, but, um, so in the next three to four weeks here, we'll,

um, have four church plants in virtual reality. Now, are, are you, you're breaking up because 100 is,

is like the preferred manageable number. Is that, is that just like you building relationships? Is

that a software limitation? Like, like what, what drove this immediate change? Um, so, um, let me

see if I can, um, simplify the idea. It'd be like, it'd be like if we planted a church in New York

city, right. And then Chicago was like, we don't have a church, bring a church here. And we went to

Chicago and so there's different metaverses or different virtual reality cities. Um, and so

we've been in all space VR, which is a great platform. Um, but Pete, there's another one

called VR chat, um, which is some of my latest videos that have been coming from VR chat with,

uh, realistic avatars. And there's one called the rec room. So we have these different virtual

cities and we've only been in this one city. Um, and you know, we always felt like people could

come, but with the energy that's been coming, people are like, please come plant a church in our

city. Please come plant a church in the side of the city. So it's not necessarily a technological,

uh, limitation because we, in theory, can have as many people, um, hosted on our server in

all space. Uh, we can have a hundred, we can have a thousand, we've got 10,000 theoretically.

Um, and, and then these other ones are asking us to come. So these other ones are different.

They're different technologies, different platforms. So our all space VR, uh, experience is going

to be like a mega church model, a large, you know, you know, music and preaching. The VR chat has

technical limitations, but we can't have a thousand on a server. Um, so for that one, we're going to

go a house church model. We're going to start developing into house churches there. So I think

we're in the middle of trying to figure it all out and we're doing the mega church and the house church

and it's, it's, um, interesting time. So I think you're catching us at a time where we're like, uh,

not overwhelmed, but like definitely not, you know, modeled, figured out yet. So, um, maybe, you know,

maybe next year it'll look a little different. Yeah. So it's good. Very cool. Now how, tell me,

tell me this. Cause, and I don't, I don't think, I don't think you said this at the conference I met you at,

like how this come into your head. How, how did you make the jump from, Hey, I'm a pastor to,

and you talked a little bit about, about church online, but there's still, it's a big jump from

church online to, Hey, I'm going to leave my business. I'm going to leave my job and I'm going

to, you know, start planting this, this church where I'm going to preach and I'm going to put on

these goggles and I'm going to engage with people in VR, like talking about unconventional ministry

and doing things from a unique perspective when it doesn't necessarily make sense by how the world

is, is looking like this is a big leap for anybody. How, how did you get to this place? How,

what were the things that kind of God used in your life to get you to here? Yeah. Um, so I'll give

you this, like it's a two to three year journey. Let me give you that, like, you know, 60 second

version, two minute version of it. Um, you know, cause my wife and I were pastors at a mega church

in Pennsylvania. Um, I was one of the campus pastors before the campus pastor. I did a lot

of digital initiatives for them, um, with their own app, a native app, um, online. I used their

online church platform to launch our own online experience. Um, so different things like that

and everything was great and we loved it. Um, but it was about 2016 where I sensed something

was wrong inside me. I couldn't identify those little turmoil and working through that discovered

that God wanted us to go do something new. And we had no idea what new meant. Uh, we thought that

meant plant physical churches. So that's what we kind of, we sold our stuff and we've got a travel

trailer and, uh, we did a lot of massive radical tactical shifts in our lives to go into physical

church plants and went to, uh, um, at arc church planning seminar. And, you know, we're doing all

that stuff. Um, it was about the same time where virtual reality came out and I experienced VR,

experienced social VR and social VR was crazy for me at the time because that's like ready player one

or the matrix. Like you're in these virtual worlds with avatars. And when, uh, one Friday I was in

there and just hit me, I was like, you know what, let's, let's have a church service in here. This

would be an amazing experience. So sure enough, that was a Friday on a Sunday. I had my first

church service in VR, uh, the summer of 2016 and five people came to that event in which for a

physical church planner, that'd be devastating. If only five people came to your, your launch day.

But for me, I was so excited. One guy was an atheist from Denmark. Um, he was like, man,

I don't believe in God, but I'm curious to see what this is all about. And that really led to

like some of the, or a lot of the media attention we're getting is because many, um, atheists and

agnostics come to VR church. And, um, that was kind of the beginning of it. And, um, so through,

through 2016, it was just more of an experiment every other week or so, you know, I'd have the

church service. Um, you know, not many people had VR. I mean, this was like, you know, three years ago.

So it's not even like now where it's still a low adoption, but, um, even back then it was,

it was much less and we were doing services and sometimes people would show up. Sometimes people

wouldn't. So, but I would do the full service, whether I preach, whether, um, someone was there

or not. I wanted people to pop in, um, expecting there was a service because VR is like that. People

just kind of pop it in and pop it out. Um, and it was about 2017 where the light bulb finally came

on. It wasn't an overnight thing. It was a gradual realization. Uh, we're not church planners in the

physical world. We're church planners in virtual reality. And that little shift, um, this is really

what kind of skyrocketed things, the energy in our community, the energy from our experience turned

into a community, uh, people from different, um, uh, they were Christians from different parts of the

world would come and they're like, Hey, we want to, we want to volunteer. We want to help. So

it was kind of like an accidental church plant. I heard a church planner say that one time.

They didn't think much about it until it happened to us. It was like, Oh, here are leaders and

here's volunteers and I'm preaching and we're doing music and all right, let's do a small group. And

then all of a sudden this church like existed and, um, it was a beautiful thing. And we'd just been,

uh, developing leaders, building the church, launching new churches, um, all of that. So that's kind of

the, uh, I guess three year, like, you know, uh, bird's eye view of transitioning from, uh, physical

church plants to virtual reality, which is very, uh, I probably would have to admit to you that was

kind of like a little mental moment, you know, like, uh, like saying that out loud was kind of like,

Oh, okay, this is interesting. Um, but, uh, no, we're really excited about it. And my wife and I have

been amazed about what's been, what's happening in virtual reality and the ministry there. And,

um, and I feel like we're just scratching the surface. And so, um, yeah, yeah. So it's,

it's been a lot of fun.

What percentage of people, uh, agree with you and encourage you and what percentage of people

look at you like you're crazy?

Uh, that's, that's like an evolving number. I think, um, yeah, don't read the YouTube or Twitter

comments for all these like comedy central stuff. Uh, cause that can get pretty, uh, negative.

Uh, you know, people who know us and love us, you know, they might not understand it, but

they just believe in, in us, like Carrie and I, and they just believe in our ministry. And

that, you know, we've, we've done ministry with many of these people for a long time. So

many of them don't get it, but they love us and support us. So from our circle, so to speak,

there's a lot of support and a lot of encouragement. We've made a lot of new friends too,

um, that have really just been, uh, the wind at our backs, but certainly there is an energy

out there that, uh, really resistant towards the, I mean, forget sacraments, like just the

idea of an online only church. And we're really not, it's, it's really more of a virtual reality

church. I think there's a big difference between something that's digital and something that's

virtual reality. Um, and then not to complicate it, but, um, to go back to the theology of things,

I think people are trying to take their digital ecclesium and copy and paste it to virtual reality

and can, um, let's, let's unpack that. Cause that that's interesting. Let's, so you would

separate, um, a physical church's, uh, expression of, of worship digitally. So broadcasting services

online, you mentioned the Skype small groups that there's a separate, um, uh, theological grounding

for VR church. Cool. Let's, let's unpack that. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Uh, and there's, I guess

many ways to come around it. And, um, like I think many churches would, would say you couldn't have

an online only church, like just completely online. Forget virtual reality. Let's say you wanted to use

the church online platform and you're going to have a church and you're going to have a Facebook group.

I think it's a brilliant idea, but I can see most churches, um, coming to the, the conclusion

that that isn't proper, valid function or whatever you want to say, but enter virtual reality with the

immersiveness of it. And I think that changes the game. I think it's a different beast. And so I've

had some people say, you know, um, you know, this, this theologian is writing about virtual reality

and, and with all due respect, but they've never experienced it. Cause I think they're trying to,

they're trying to take the, the copy and paste approach. And that would make sense on the outside. I,

I could see why someone would do that. Um, but once you experience it and, uh, experience virtual

reality one, and then to experience virtual reality church, it's completely different. So I've had

critics come in, uh, not many, but I remember one guy who was, he was super, uh, you know, truthful.

And he said, you know, I came in here, I thought this was going to be a joke. And, uh, this is pretty

amazing is what he said. And so you have people that on, on the outside have serious theological

reservations. I actually had this pastor, I did a presentation in California and this pastor

internally was like, Nope. Um, and I, I didn't know that. So I said, Hey man, I'd love to have

you come to VR church. Come check it out. I had him actually come up on stage with his avatar and,

and, uh, present his ministry. And afterwards he said, I want to do virtual reality. So like that

little like, um, knowledge there is so important for us to communicate what our struggle has

been is that I, we can talk about it. I can show you pictures. I can show you images. I

can, um, you know, cast vision all day long, but it takes two seconds in virtual reality for

the, for the brain, uh, the light bulb to come on, uh, for the, uh, the spirit to illuminate

to the idea that you can have, um, a ministry in VR. And as we do fully online or fully virtual

reality ministry, Ray, I feel bad. I'm asking a bunch of questions. You got anything on your

end? Um, let, let me ask that. Let me ask this. Uh, so in, in, in digital church and church

online, um, and, and Ray may disagree. It's probably one of the top, one of the biggest

issues we got is, is this idea of consumerism is that church online is all we're creating

is consumers. We're not creating disciples in the vehicle online ministry to move people

from a consumer to a disciple. You know, they're not comfortable doing that in context of ecclesia

and theology and blah, blah, blah. What are the theological issues that, that you run into

when you talk to people other than they don't understand VR, right? Like theological, practical,

other than just pure education or is education really it? Like what's the major hurdle you overcome

on a regular basis talking with people? Well, I, you know, I kind of pushed back a little

bit in the sense of like, um, you know, I love the churches I visited across America. We've visited

maybe hundreds. Um, I love the church I was a part of, but I wouldn't necessarily say it was like a

disciple. Um, you know, that, that one hour event is more just, it's very passive. Um, it's not like

you're, you're going in there and have, you're expressing your gifts or I, there is aspects to

volunteering. There is aspects to getting involved, but I think, uh, you know, many churches I've been

a part of who are doing a great job. There's still this element of assuming that their physical

construct is doing it well or doing it right. I think you actually need to go back for me personally

to go look at the physical, how that's functioning. Are you, are you actually making disciples? Not to

assume you have a building, you have an event, you have small groups. That's great from a like

constructural point of view, but functionally and organically are, is that even actually happening?

Um, and then I would argue that when you could take a good hard look, some churches might come

to the conclusion where we could do a lot better of a job. And so, um, so when I push back a little

bit to that, it really kind of illuminates to what we're doing in VR. Not that it's perfect,

but it's not, it's when discipleship that we have, when it's done in person, when it's,

and it's done in an immersive way. Um, and people kind of experience that it's very beautiful. So

those interactions are spirit to spirit, uh, person to person. And, um, so yeah, I think just

kind of, for me, it's challenging. Well, let's not assume that what's happening physically is

done well. Let's kind of take a look and then let's apply that also into virtual reality.

That's good. You know, DK, as, as folks kind of dive into this, um, I think what a lot more

of them will start to realize is how much, uh, consumerism actually happens in the physical

environment. Right. And so, uh, uh, how, how are you guys as part of your service, like walk

through, uh, like somewhat of a service structure as far as how you guys bridge that gap and get

to the community portion for the person who's coming home?

Yeah. And then real quick, like how, what would be just to clarify, like when you say consumerism,

what would, what would someone say would be an example of that?

When they say that, it's typically like I sit down and I just absorb content. So I cut, I sit down

and I just get preached at, or, you know, Hey, we sing some songs. I listened to a sermon and then

I'm out and I don't really make any kind of personal connection. I don't have any kind of personal

ties or even in the least, right? Like some churches consider this like in the least of a step,

Hey, I didn't even fill out a card or I didn't even submit like some kind of next step or anything

like that. So, and then I just want to flesh it out, um, a little bit. Cause I, I remember this

argument for a long time ago. I just haven't been in it for a while. So is that it, would a church

assume that they're doing it right and the attendee is doing it wrong? Is that the assumption,

um, as well?

Yeah. So the church, right. So the churches start off with that construct, right? Like we're doing

everything we can. And I remember Ed Stetzer wrote about this and Jeff, you love this article.

Ed Stetzer talked about how we construct our churches. Like we do theaters in the sense of

one person is exercising his gift and he stands on the stage and everybody else just sits there and

just absorbs. And we assume that the body is taking place because one cell is active, but the rest of

them are dormant during that time period.

Right. Um, and so, yeah, and that's, I think maybe it wasn't clear in my brain, but now, now I'm seeing

what you're saying is because, um, I just, I'm just wondering if maybe we got to start there. Like

consumerism is not so much the people in the pews, but maybe the leadership or the structure that you've

created. Um, so whether that's, you know, physical or whether that's virtual reality, um, I could

create as a leader in VR, a situation that's just about me. Right. Um, forget the physical, it's just,

you know, the VR thing, but I don't think that's what we're trying to do, but, but yeah, let me

explain, let me explain a little bit about like what one experiences, um, in virtual reality. And so when

they come in, they spawn into our, our church world and, uh, very similar to what you would see in,

in a church is there's a welcome desk there. There's a prayer area. Um, we'll see the,

the building, so to speak, we're really more in worlds and amphitheaters than like an actual

building, but, um, for lack of, you know, better words, they come in and they experience all that.

And there's like, you know, people milling about people saying, hi, welcome. We'll have a welcome

team there. Um, they'll see a countdown. Uh, we kind of do a, I was part of that mega trip. So there's

a lot of influences from that, you know, so I got a countdown with some, you know, jamming music going

on and, and, uh, there'll be an announcement. Hey guys, we're going to start, uh, I can turn on a

megaphone and it's kind of like a, the PA system. Um, and it's, I'm in everyone's ear. Like, hey guys,

we're going to get started with VR church students. Good to have you. Um, and then once the, the

countdown is done, people will come into our environment and we have different environments

that we use. Um, and so they'll come in and then I'll just greet everyone real quick. We'll go right

into a worship song. Uh, people ask, you know, what's worship like? Well, we do a lot of lyrical videos.

So like open resources at Oakland at life church, they have a lot of, uh, lyrical videos

and actually works really, really well. And sometimes we'll have some, uh, uh, an individual

that I'll like jam and his guitar and sing and people love that, um, too. Uh, we'll cast

some vision about the church because we'll have a, we have a lot of visits, a lot of visitor

flow, uh, people that are curious about what VR church is all about. And then in other worship

song, and then we'll go into the sermon, uh, sermons for us have evolved. I used to deliver

them from the stage, uh, with, you know, like a jumbo, um, with the big screen behind

me. Uh, what we've been able to do now is every sermon is constructed. So we'll go create

the environment for it. Um, we just did the whole book of John. We went chapter by chapter

through the book of John and every chapter on a, on a Monday would be sent to our, our build

team and our world builders would create whatever was happening in that chapter, whether it was

the feeding of the 5,000, whether it was, you know, Jesus on the boat and the storm

coming and we'll, we'll create those scenes. So, uh, the last one was, uh, John 21. We finished

up that chapter where, um, uh, the disciples were out fishing and Jesus was on the shore

and they couldn't catch the fish. And, and we had that whole like net, um, broken and the

fish were there and, and the fire and the food was on the shore. And we actually, as a church

walked into that, to that boat. So part of this sermon, I'm walking. So it's, it'd be kind,

it's hard to explain after maybe send you a video, but so I'm not delivering. Yes, please.

Yeah. I'm not delivering a sermon from the stage. I'm walking around and there's scripture in the

sky. I'm talking about it and we'll go on the boat and we'll talk about, you know, what's

happening with Peter. We all crossed the sea of Galilee and went to where Jesus was, was cooking the,

uh, the fish and the bread. And we talked about that. We had a little sheep there for when Jesus

talked about, you know, feed my sheep. So, uh, for us, it's very experiential. So people are walking

it in these, uh, worlds, kind of like, like inception. Remember Leonardo DiCaprio and Ellen

Page, you know, they're building these worlds with their minds. It's very similar to what we do.

And, um, and I think people are pleasantly surprised about it, uh, because people come in

thinking, you know, not to, um, be negative towards stage sermons, but people come in thinking,

oh, this is going to be a stage sermon for 20 minutes, but, and then they find out we're

just walking all together through these experiences. And, uh, that is what people have been saying

about VR is that we're leaving the information age and we're entering the experience age and

that's, um, VR and AR.

DJ, you know, my wife, my wife's a teacher and we talk about all the different styles of

learning. Are you discovering a new style of learning with this? Because this immersive

environment just sounds so perfect, uh, for different styles of learning to take place

in so much. So, you know, you're making the scriptures come alive for people in such a way

that, that they can experience it, that they could see it, that they can, that they can borderline

feel it in such a way that it's, that it's, it's not so much that it's real to them, but it's just a

different, it's a very different way to experience the Bible that you're talking about here,

which I just think is amazing.

Yes. Uh, for us, it's new and I don't think we like discovered it and declared it. I think it was

more of a subtle thing. We just kind of just, just hop, you know, um, happened into. So I think

what it does is it just imprints it, um, that memory in a different way. So, um, you know, like

you might have, like you might watch a, like a movie, right. And you might watch a movie. I remember

maybe you'll have dreams about it. Uh, but virtual reality now creates a new imprint on your brain

where everything's in 360. So, um, when you remember the scriptures, the sermon, you actually

walked on the boat, you actually were by the Sea of Galilee. You saw the fire cooking there. There's

the sheep. And so there is a new, um, there's a new aspect of memory and education and experience

that I think is imprinting the narrative of the Bible at it in a different way that we haven't

seen before. Um, so it's, it's, it's interesting.

That is so cool. I just, I'm, I'm going to come, I'm going to jump on. I've been waiting

for this, this quest to come out because when I was reading about it, it seemed like it was

the best headset to kind of be that entry, uh, point. Uh, but I do, I want, I want to come

going to hang out at your church. When do you guys, when do you guys meet? Right. So, uh,

cause yeah, it's, it's live, live, right?

Yeah. Live, live, uh, 2 PM on Eastern. Um, that's our European service that's led by

our, I team teach with our European pastor. His name is pastor Bismick. Um, and then 7 30 PM

Eastern, but, uh, we'll probably fill that afternoon with our two more new church plans coming. Um,

and then we have, uh, life groups starting the week. And the one thing I forgot to mention,

if you're familiar with discord, discord is like a chat interface used by a lot of gamers and guilds

use that for the life of our church. So when we're offline, there's quite a bit going on on discord.

I probably, we probably have about 400, you know, hitting up to 500 members on discord and there's

prayer, there's just general chatting. There's, there's a bunch of stuff. And that's how there's,

that's like the glue for us. Um, cause there's that large event, there's a small group, and then

there's this kind of like the space in between and that's what discord fills it in. So there's almost

a cohesiveness, um, happening, uh, for our experience. It's, it's funny. You mentioned

that last, uh, last episode, Jate, uh, who runs a video game ministry is got like 650, right? It was,

I think that was it like around 650 people, uh, in a discord and he's discipling them to like

share their faith and going through, um, four fields and like really just some really crazy

discipleship stuff. That's amazing. That's a lot of people. That's really good. And, and man,

it's, it's just, uh, you know, discord's not a, not a tool. I mean, I've got it on my phone.

I play a star Wars iOS game that they want me to be on discord, the guild that I'm in or whatever,

but like, it's not, it's not on my radar. Right. But evidently like they're addicted to it and

they're on that platform all the time, uh, utilizing it to, to communicate in the, in the plan. And so

using those, those tools just to even continue on the conversation, um, where there already are

starting to talk about spiritual things and praying together within that space is awesome.

We're even talking about like, at what point do we create a second server? Because we do want there

to be a sense of discipleship and community and spiritual life, but, uh, we can see already that

at some point it's going to be too much. And you're just going to feel like, like we want to take that

mega church feel that maybe we have on a Sunday and break it down through life groups and on discord,

discord, but our discord starting to become a mega discord. I don't know what you want, what, what the

right word is. So we might need to like create another server there, which is the beauty of that

technology. But yeah. Yeah. He's got his, his, his core. I want to say his core is about, you can go

back to listen to the last episode, but I'm pretty sure core was like around 20. Um, you know, the, the committed

was closer to 50 and that's 650 is kind of the, I'm in the community, but I'm not a leader in that.

And so he's got his 15 to impact his 50 to go out and, and, uh, and message. That's beautiful. Yeah.

So it's, it's just, man. And I love, I mean, I love stories like this because before I had the podcast

with Jade and now you like discord wasn't even on my radar. I'm pretty sure I downloaded it. I didn't even,

I had an account, but it wasn't even on my phone, you know, like it just, I deleted it because it

wasn't to me, it wasn't a big deal because I'm not in that space, but now recognizing, man, there's

all sorts of, of people that are using this. That is, there are, they do have community there and the

church has an opportunity to create, to be part of that community and to use that community to point

and connect people to Christ is, is a phenomenal, um, phenomenal idea that that's out there. So, um,

Hey DJ, this is the last question that I want to ask where, where is this going? Where is VR going

to be? Look in your, in your, you know, magic glasses, getting your DeLorean, whatever you got

to do. Um, 10 years from now, 20 years from now, VR church. Um, is it, is it just you guys? What

is the other churches look like adopting into it? Who's in that space? Where are we going 20 years

from now? 2040? Yeah. Yeah. I have some thoughts about that and I'm just going to give them to you.

You can take them or leave them because some of them might be a little far out there. But, um,

if we back up just a touch, you think about, excuse me, you think about like churches that were

hesitant to, you know, add a website, you know, at some point in the past, or maybe recently it was,

it was Facebook that they were hesitant to add. Sorry, I got some in my throat there. And, um,

but like in 2019, it would, it'd be ridiculous to think that you, you wouldn't have a website.

You wouldn't have a Facebook. You just wouldn't be, you know, imaginable that that would be a thing.

So fast forward, I don't know if this is two years, five years, 10 years, it's going to be the

same thing with VR and AR. Um, when we thought, you know, this is a, you know, a technology that not

to be regarded, I think churches are going to discover that it's going to be an expected part

of your experience. What are you offering in VR? And particularly for online, like if you're

organization or your, your church adopts an online campus, it's the most logical next step.

Um, it really is. And I know other churches are struggling, you know, with the ecclesiology of

it, but if your church says, yeah, we're, we like online campuses and that's what we're going to do.

Virtual reality is going to be the next step for you. I think it's going to be quite disruptive.

I think it's going to be one of the more disruptive technologies the church has faced in this

digital era, which is still like in the history of the church still very like a much a baby, like

internet and T, uh, you know, computers and technology smartphones. This is just, we're just

barely getting started. And now VR is coming around. And so I think it's going to be super

disruptive. And I think churches are going to, um, are going to have a hard time to know what to do

with it. And so I hope that primarily number one churches plant, or they have a multi-site and one

of their multi-site is a VR campus. I mean, that needs to happen. I hope churches, you know, get into

that. Um, and at least for us, it's like, we're the only church in VR right now. I think there's a

couple of people doing some really good spiritual work, but they maybe wouldn't call themselves a

church. Um, so right now we just need people to come and to help plant churches. It'd be like if

there was only one church in New York, I think I alluded to that earlier. And like, it wouldn't make

sense that that even would be a thing. And, and certainly church planners would go there. And

that's what church planners do. They, they look and see where is the need, where is there a low

amount of churches? And as far as digital and online and virtual reality, the lowest like engaged

is virtual reality. So we do need churches. We do need online ministers to engage that space.

Um, and it's going to be, it's going to be crazy because the technology is only, I mean, this is a,

this is a, you know, it's a big, it's a big device. It's comfortable, but it's not like,

um, you know, you can stick it in your pocket thing, like the thing with, uh, like a smartphone.

Um, so, but it's only going to be a matter of time before these things, like, I don't know,

10, 20 years, who knows where these things just become a pair of glasses and you'll just be in

your pocket, put your glasses on and you're in a fully VR experience. Um, the avatars are going to

look human-like. We're going to be existing in these virtual worlds. We're going to go to school.

We're going to go to work. We're even going to go to church in VR. Um, and I think that's going to be

a big thing coming that maybe, and that's going to be like, you're talking about, um, it was like,

that's might be a generational thing. Um, but certainly like my kids there, they would have

no problem being part of a church. That's like virtual reality. I think that generation is going

to come up and theologically, that's not even going to be on their radar. Um, so I think it's

going to be an interesting future with VR and AR. Um, part of me, it says, it's hard to tell what's

going to happen. The other part of me says, I think this is going to be quite disruptive and,

and, um, and possibly in a really good way. So, um, yeah, the rest of there was, um, a Clay

Scroggins quote, uh, he said at a conference I was at recently, um, you know, the business world

looks at the digital disruption as, as an opportunity. The church, uh, looks at digital disruption

as an obstacle to overcome or an obstacle to run away from. Yeah. And so it'll, it really

will be interesting to see, um, how the technology is adopted. Traditionally, churches don't, um,

they don't adopt technology. Well, it's usually pioneers and innovators, honestly, like yourself

who have jumped into the space and said, you know, I'm claiming this for Christ, even though

everybody else is on the sidelines, uh, ridiculing or saying why you're wrong, um, in that. And so,

man, first off, I just want to thank you for being a pioneer, uh, for jumping, for jumping in this area,

uh, when, when the rest of the world probably isn't as supportive as it could be and, uh, taking some

lumps, uh, through, uh, comedy central, which ended up your, your, your church 400%. God works even on

cable TV these days. So I thought that, Hey Ray, as, as we're landing the plane here, man, in any

thoughts or anything on your end, DJ, I hope we can have you back. I've still got so much more that I

want to learn and listen in and look forward to checking out more through this. Just like Jeff,

I can't wait to get a headset and, and, uh, start diving in and seeing more about what you're doing.

Yeah, that'd be awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I had a great time. Thanks for having me on the podcast. It was

great. We'd love to have you back. Maybe once you get a couple of these multi-sites, uh, launched

here in the other meta versus if I'm using the right word. Yeah, that's right. And, um, I do,

I do want to jump in a couple, uh, um, uh, I'm trying to think of services. I started to say shows.

It's not the right services to just try to get that feel and maybe have a more, um, you know,

open Frank dialogue on it. Yeah. Yeah. I think, man, I think it'd be pleasantly surprised. Yo,

thanks for having me. I had a great time. Awesome. Hey, uh, this is it for the church.digital. We're

going to wrap here and we'll see you next time. Y'all have a good day.