EP024: Ken Schafer & The Challenge of Equipping Using Online Technologies

Hey there, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. My name is Jeff, and I'm excited

to be putting this episode together for you guys. This is episode 24. We've done 24 of these,

and we are not slowing down one bit. If you're absolutely new here with the Church Digital

Podcast, the heart behind this is literally to facilitate a conversation about what church

online can be. All of us across America doing church online, we don't have the answer yet.

We're still trying to figure this out, from the big churches like the Saddleback and the

Elevations down to the small churches that are struggling to put together a broadcast. There's

no clear answer of what church online is, and truthfully, our goal here is to facilitate a

conversation, to talk to some people, to ask some questions, and create a learning environment so

that all of us can learn how to do church online more effectively. We've got a unique episode here

with episode 24. We're bringing in one of my closest friends. His name is Ken Schaefer to

the podcast today. Ken and I used to work together at Christ Fellowship Miami. He was stewardship pastor

at the time and was responsible for a lot of things and utilizing Dave Ramsey and Financial Peace

University in that. And so we're going to be talking a lot about that. And early on in Ken's in my

relationship, because I'm an online guy, I really challenged him to think more about doing some of

his trainings virtually in an online space. And what's fascinating, the reason I wanted to bring Ken

back to the conversation, was the first time I had this conversation with him, Ken honestly looked at me

and said, that's not theologically allowed, you're wrong. And okay, maybe he didn't say the

theological word, but he basically was like, you're wrong, you're stupid. What I love about Ken and

our relationship is I just kept pestering him over and over again, until he changed his mind. And he

started to see the advantage of doing church online. And so really, I just wanted to wrestle with that

conversation here. Okay, here's a guy who used to think against doing community and trainings and

online environments. And now he's more comfortable with that and even uses it more in his current work

space. And I'm going to let him explore it. I don't necessarily need to, to unpack it in detail,

because I don't get away the podcast. So here you go. I've got Ken Schaefer, who actually works with

Dave Ramsey. Now I've got Ray Diarmus, online pastor, Christ Fellowship Miami, and myself, Jeff Reed with

the Church Digital, in a conversation centered around equipping, utilizing online technologies. Here you go.

I got to tell you, I've been looking forward to this conversation, because man, Ken, I love you. And I

really miss spending time with you and having some of these in-depth conversations, like we had at

Christ Fellowship. And one of the things that I love about Ken is that he's never afraid to tell me

that I'm wrong, because he's done that the majority of our relationship, telling me that I'm wrong,

crazy. And in context, some of the, in context of the church online stuff, in the online community,

that's been just an ongoing, a long conversation for someone who's been like, I'm not quite sure how

that works to somebody who has kind of spun it and taken it to a different perspective. And so when

Ken and I were together, and Ray was around down at Christ Fellowship Miami, Ken was doing a lot with

the Dave Ramsey stuff and, and that, and we really wrestled with what that looked like in context

of doing it online and offering it online. And so, hey, Ken, man, just take a moment, just tell us

some of that story, kind of, kind of what that, what that looked like.

Well, you know, I had the job as stewardship pastor there at Christ Fellowship. So my,

my basic mission was to equip people in the area of biblical financial discipline and to give them

vision and tools to achieve what God wants for them in that area. And financial peace

university was a, was a big part of that. It's a nine week course, Dave Ramsey offered by Dave

Ramsey's organization. A lot of churches use that as a building block for their stewardship and

discipleship programs. And we had had hundreds or maybe thousands of people go through that at

Christ Fellowship. And this was when you and I started talking about, well, what does it look

like to do something online? I was never really a fan. I'm probably of all the people that you'll

have on your podcast. I'm probably the least connected online. I, I checked Facebook three

or four times a year. Uh, I, I actually received email summaries of Twitter accounts that I have,

and I, I really don't engage that much digitally for a variety of reasons, but you challenged me.

And your basic challenge was there's, there's people out there you can reach online. You can't reach in

person. And I took that to heart. I piloted a few different ways to do some financial peace

university groups online and actually had some tremendous and surprising success with that.

Um, what I found was that in a, in a mega church environment or really any church environment,

there's physical and logistical constraints that are real. So people might want to engage,

for example, in a small group discipleship environment, but simply can't. Maybe they're

parents with kids. They have conflicts that are really legitimate or perceived. Um, but the small group

environment, the way you had me set it up online actually eliminated almost all of that.

Yeah. Me.

Yeah. You, are you going to ask me what you, what you, you know, what I did?

Cause that'd be the followup question.

Yeah. Describe in detail, like how some of that worked out for folks.

Well, what I realized was so, and I think there's, you go through an evolution in your life, right?

Where when I didn't have, when I wasn't married, I didn't understand the commitments that married

people have. Right. Then I became married. We were 10 years without children. And so I didn't

understand the commitments that people with children had. Then I had children. I'm like, man,

how does anybody do anything right? That's, that's not Sunday morning at nine o'clock for 90 minutes,

because like, that's, that's about it. So what Jeff, what you, what you suggested I do

was actually have people watch the video content for financial peace, uh, ahead of time. And then

we would do like a zoom group, like the format that we're on right now, recording this, we would

do the zoom group and do just the facilitation of the questions online. It's good. Okay. That that's

good by itself. The secret sauce. What I realized was that the time, all of a sudden becomes the time

that you hold the group becomes, uh, inconsequential. So it can be strategic. So we had ours on Wednesday

night at nine 30. And as I was talking about this with people, what I, what I finally came to realize,

like, you're not competing with anything Wednesday night at nine 30, but your kids are in bed. Soccer

practice is done. The only thing you're competing, whatever you recorded to watch on TV later,

that's the only thing it's like, are you going to hit play on game of Thrones, which you shouldn't

be watching anyway, or are you going to engage in a discussion, uh, discipleship discussion,

help you grow your life. Um, so we had the last group I was responsible for. We had, uh, I think

we had six or seven families and it looked kind of like the Brady bunch on the little zoom screen.

You go to that gallery view and you can see everybody, but I, I had, um, I had a stewardess

who was part of this group who one time actually joined the discussion leaving. I saw her on the

jetway of a plane that she was leaving, joining the discussion with her headphones in. I don't even

know what city she was in. I had a guy who worked at the Miami international airport, never met him

in person, had a, had a friend of a friend somewhere in Naples, Florida, join our Miami group.

So we found that by changing up the time, and then we also had families that had kids in bed,

that same, that same, uh, scenario I described. So we found that by time, we, you know, not only

can you time shift your programs, you can time shift your discipleship environments and it worked

great. That's good. So how did this work out as far as, um, making folks feel like they were

not just connected with it, but really engaging in the content? Because I know I've led FPU multiple

times, Ken, and you've helped me out a ton with that. For me, there's always a breakdown in the

group after week three. Like you really start to see like, who's really there? Because that's,

for those of you who are, who are not in tune or you've not let FPU, that's after the budgeting

week. And so a lot of folks tend to freak out after that. And so how did you maintain that kind

of contact and communication, even though your group was online and encouragement?

Well, that's where something happened that I really did not expect because the most common

question in a full disclosure, I actually work for Dave Ramsey now. I'm, I was part of his

organization. So I worked at the Financial Peace University all the time in churches all across

the United States. Uh, although this podcast is not an official, we're not, I'm not the spokesman

for that organization. This is more about the kind of our experience at the church.

Sure. Um, what most churches will ask me, they will assume that because it's a zoom environment

that the personal engagement will be lower. That was my assumption coming in and I was actually

wrong. And I don't know that this would always be the case, but I found, um, I found you've

got that gallery view when you've got six or nine families and they're all in a little box.

It's even better than sitting in a circle. And the reason is because you actually are looking

at everyone all the time. So everyone has to participate. That's good. Nobody gets a pass

and the very, in my work now, I do a lot of work on zoom. And so I'm like, I'm talking to you

gentlemen right now on an iPad, you're about 18 inches away. It's actually much more intimate

in many ways than an in-person meeting. So the group calls itself out. I found the level of

engagement and accountability in the last virtual group I led to be higher than that in many

of the physical groups that I've led.

How so?

Um, I think that convert that basic conversation. I mean, we just stayed in, we stayed in touch

by text throughout the week. I would text me if they couldn't come or whatever. But I,

I think in a circle, a hand, one or two people are always going to dominate the conversation

in a panel. When I'm looking at that, when I've had the gallery view and it's the Brady bunch,

it's much easier. The visual cues make it much easier to know who's not participating and to call

that person out. Um, in addition to what you're just closer, you're looking at everyone all the

time. I can't do that in a circle. I can do it one-on-one or one-on-two, but in a group of,

of 10 families in a circle, I can't do it.

How did it work out in terms of, or did it work out? Cause you said the accountability ramped

up. Was it just you to the group members or was it them to each other as well? Like,

how did that happen? Uh, them to each other. I couldn't really speak to. Uh, I think if that

happens, it probably happens more digitally because they largely had no context. They didn't know each

other. And I would say this is a little bit different financial piece by its nature has a

beginning and an end. I talk about it often being in it. It's a piece of sport kind of

equipping the beginning and an end. My goal is, and that course is to teach you some specific,

uh, some specific principles, habits, behaviors, and then you're going to learn them. And then the

course is done at the end of nine weeks. And that frustrates the snot at a small group pastors and,

and church environments. They say, is it a small group? Is it not a small group? Do we count it?

Do we not count it? And you guys are laughing because we've all, we've all, um, been in that

environment. Uh, the reality is people get helped, um, on an ongoing basis. I think if we were going

to do community, uh, we would probably do it a little bit differently. I have a friend who just

led a financial piece group virtually, like what I just described. And he actually had a group text

going with all the folks in the group. And he found that to be, uh, quite good. And they stayed

engaged throughout the duration. Um, you're always going to have folks drop out of things.

What I found with doing the virtual group, the way we did it, it gives people an easier way

to come online. So thinking about the environment that we, we had at Christ Fellowship or any,

any church, not just, that's the one that three of us share in common. You have, uh, some folks that

are, are attenders and, and really the other folks that make it happen. Well, the folks that make

things happen, like their schedule is pretty well tapped out. They're coming for two certain,

they're serving in a service on the weekend, maybe two, they're participating. They're in a small

group, maybe a men's group as well. And on top of that, you're saying, Hey, look, I want you to

engage in this content. That's going to change your life. All I need is you to pause something else

for nine weeks. Well, they don't want to stop something else. Right. But at nine 30 at night,

they can engage for 30 extra minutes as long as they can do it from their home. Coming to a small

group is hard, right? You've got to drive across town. You've got to worry about your

kids. You've got to dive into the thing. And I'm not saying there's not a place. I have a small

group meeting right now in my house in Franklin, Tennessee, and I love these folks. Um, but there

are seasons of being able to do that. And there are more efficient, there can be more efficient ways

to equip people. Here's a quick trivia question for you. Are you ready? Okay. And you're, you guys are

Florida guys. So if you tour the Thomas Edison home on the West coast of Florida, uh, one time when I

went to her, they said what his favorite invention was and his favorite invention was not what you'd

think. It was the phonograph. And the reason was not what you think when that was invented in the

19th century, Thomas Edison thought about that device as being the democratization of education,

that people would have access to education inexpensively at a distance. And it's taken more than 140 years,

but kind of in our modern world with online education, even in the church with online discipleship,

with some of those ideas, um, those barriers become blurred. And his vision for that is finally

becoming a little bit more of a reality. It's funny because I, I, as, as I've studied history

throughout that, and it's, it's interesting, you point out that that was Edison's perspective.

And I know we're kind of looking at a grander conversation here, but even then I've seen that

over time where a lot of folks look at new technologies and they see that in terms of

sexual birth, but then they try other folks come along and try and restrict that and control that.

So, you know, Edison events, the phonograph, and then, you know, eventually other, you know,

copyright becomes an issue and other folks start to constrict and control. Whereas the internet has

kind of freed a lot of content up and still a lot of folks are worried about, well, how do we control

this, control that? But especially for those of us in the church world, shouldn't we be asking more

how to leverage this for free for the sake of helping folks in terms of engaging in community and not

just the content?

Yeah. How do we release it? I mean, depending on how far back you go in history, movable type was

considered the death of education. The idea that a print that the masses could have books was going

to be an issue and a problem. So I'm all about equipping people and I'm about, I'm about removing their

excuses to be equipped. I want to, I want to meet people where they are. I mean, there's the performance

oriented part of me who I just want to say sacrifice, suck it up and let's get it done. And then the more

pastoral compassionate side of me wants to make it easy and to bring people along somewhere in that

mix is, uh, is the answer.

Okay. Let me shift gears on something because we're, we're, we're talking about the easability of

education in, in this. Um, what, what about the, in context of, of online, the anonymity, the

safeness, the separation, uh, in context of what you're doing with, with FPU. Uh, I can be in an

online group. Uh, I'm not in the physically same space. And so, because I'm not like breathing the

same air, uh, there's oftentimes with online small groups, in my experience, there's a safeness where

people are more open to conversations. They're more transparent because there's not this embarrassment

of I'm in the same space. They can see me blushing and turning red. They're seeing my pixel turn red,

uh, but not necessarily that. And so for me, like an, an online, just in my personal life,

an online small group tends to be more transparent than the physical, because to me, the camera gives

the separation that allows more intimacy. I'm just wondering kind of either, both of you guys,

what your experiences have been in something like that. I'll let you go, right? Cause I talked a lot.

Yeah, no, it's all good. And I, cause I think, and we want to hear more from, from you on the

situation. Um, for me, it's, it's really like what Kevin was talking about. It removes a lot of the

excuses and you really start to find like, who's really in and who's really out seriousness of

community. Um, you know, and especially with, with discipleship, you know, so much of it. And this is

hard in the local church content text, because we want more groups and we want people bought into

groups. And, but then there's folks who are always telling you, Hey, I want to go deeper. I want more.

And so with online discipleship, I found now you remove a lot of the excuses and you start to tell

them, Hey, listen, if you really want to go deeper, if you want to go more, this is the commitment.

Like you don't have to worry about like what Ken said, you worry about putting kids to worry about

this because we're removing all of those excuses. What we do want to know is we want to know that

one, you're engaging with the content and two, that you're ready to have real discussion with it

because we've removed a lot of the other barriers from there, which means that number three,

they're left without excuses. So now we start to get to the nitty gritty if they, especially if

they've not engaged with the first two steps. So that encourages people in the group to call them

out. But then also as a leader, it's our responsibility to step up our game and call them out and

enter into uncomfortable situations of, Hey, uh, in this particular case with Ramsey solutions,

Hey, so why didn't you watch a video this week? You know, we've given you an audio and a video

portion of it. Why didn't you do those things on the side where I've done, uh, online groups where

we've, where we've done scripture reading. Hey, so seriously, like what was the excuse as far as

not engaging with the scripture this week? You could open the Bible app, you could have put it

on audio. And I know that leads to a lot of uncomfortable conversations, but it's those

uncomfortable conversations that leads to growth. Yeah. And I would add that I think, I mean, all,

all three of us have spent our entire lives in a variety of ministry contexts. We each have small

church, large church and medium church experience, right? What all those have in common is that when

people say churches are full of hypocrites, they're largely right. I mean, I'm one. And so there's like

intimacy in a church and transparency in person is difficult. I remember I was with a group of pastors

maybe 15 years ago. It was a small group kind of accountability thing. And they said, how are you

doing? And like seven guys in a row said they were doing great and just kind of painted it, you know,

I'm fine. Right. And then the eighth one, I don't remember how many there were. It's funny. I can't

even remember this guy's name, but he said, actually, he says, I'm struggling. I, I have, I have no

motivation and I will never forget. He would said a couple other things. And then he said, and when I

open up the Bible, it's as dry as dust. Wow. And I said, wow, I've never seen that happen before.

And so like, and, and, and that's, that's hard, right? It's hard to do that. But here's what was

interesting about those pastors. They weren't all in the same church. It was a group of pastors. It was

kind of regional and they were meeting together. I wonder how difficult it would be for that same man

as the pastor. And there's nothing wrong with him. We go through those seasons to have that

conversation with his elders or with his peers. So I think there is, there is some value

in anonymity isn't right, but maybe, maybe distance. And so I've known financial peace

groups just because that's, again, that's my current context where they happen with, with

guys from multiple time zones. I mean, you're just, so it's a lot easier to talk about what

might be right or wrong with my money or my spiritual walk, uh, uh, with people I'm never

likely to meet. Right. I can see tremendous, uh, I can see tremendous power in that. But if

you guys have ever, if you've ever been to, uh, to, uh, to an AA or an NA meeting or anything

like that, the name is Alcoholics, what? Anonymous. Anonymous. Right. Same, same kind of deal that

we're going to, we're going to level set something so we all can recognize that we're struggling.

So to me, it's the right tools, the right place. There's people for whom an online group or any

kind of environment like that would never work. Right. And there's people for whom it's always

the next best step. And that's, what's interesting about financial peace university. Right. I remember,

um, when we first, when Lauren and I first launched our first FPU group, we actually had a visitor

come to small group that night with, with his wife. And so like, it was their first time ever to our

group and they weren't even coming for an FPU group. They were just coming. Cause Hey, we were a

small group and we were, we just happened to be starting FPU that day. And I remember presenting

the information, tell them, Hey, listen, if you want, you can engage, you know, and if not, that's cool.

And, and I remember them clear as day telling me, yeah, we're okay. We don't need this. That's not

for us, whatever. Well, they stayed throughout the group, just engaging in the content. And, and, um,

and then after the fact, about two months down the road, they themselves were asking if they can host

an FPU group at their house. And really what it took was it took time for them to get in that kind

of community where they felt comfortable enough to reveal, uh, their finances and all that. Cause

they weren't going to be open with that from the get go. They weren't just going to let us into their

world like that from the first meeting. But after a while, the wall started to come down and they felt

more ready to engage in community from then on.

Yeah. And, you know, that happens independent of content, right? So if you think about,

if you think about, um, I mean, like men's discipleship content, you know, a group of guys,

they're not going to get together and, and, uh, and share that they're struggling until maybe the

second or third time through that. Right. Right. And that is, um,

just a reality of who we are and where we are in our, in our, in our culture. I don't think that

struggles anything new. So one of Satan's best, uh, Satan's best tactics is to let us think that

we're divided and alone. And when in fact, we're all struggling.

That's true. How do you get, and how do you, how did you advise leaders to get beyond, um,

just kind of the face answers? Cause I imagine a lot of folks, just like you're talking about come

with, Hey, I'm fine at group. A lot of folks are coming with their budget and it's a total lie,

you know, I've never seen that. I don't know what you're talking about.

Uh, I mean, that strategy doesn't change whether it's virtual or in person, right? You're only

going to get out of something what you put into it. And if you're, you know, if you're distorting

your mirror, if you've got a fun house mirror, instead of one that's showing you a real picture,

like you're never going to make progress. So, I mean, and it's, and that's independent of

financial discussions. I mean, that's a conversation I'll have with everybody. Like who you are right now,

is the sum total of decisions you've made and what you've been reading and

kind of your actions. So if you like it, let's keep doing that. And if you don't like it, let's

change. Yeah. How do you help folks balance out when they're leading a group? So, Hey, I got,

I got two types of people in my group. I've got one guy who's got a lot of money and he's a lot in

debt. And I got another guy with a little bit of money and he's a lot in debt for him too. Just

balancing out those two. Cause especially when you're doing online, like you get a variety of

characters, you know, some folks who are business folks on the go and they think that they've got

everything under control with leverage and debt. And then, uh, we're just struggling. They're like,

Hey, look, I'm just getting by with free public internet.

I want to go to the library. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I don't know. And I guess I haven't had that in an

online environment to me. That's really a pastoring question. I want to pastor both of those guys.

Right. So I want to ask them. I always, I mean, I have this, I have a set of stock questions. I ask

people about any situation, financial, otherwise, one of them is what's the biblical principle that

applies to your situation right now. And most of the time people know it. Right. And so then the

question is, okay, well, what do we need to do related to that biblical principle?

Let me ask this because with, with you, with your relationship with Ramsey,

you're working with churches across the country. You're having these conversations, um, about doing

FPU. Um, you either, you know, physically and even virtually in some situations, um, average response,

when you talk about FPU virtually, uh, churches, that's awesome. That's crazy. What is virtual? Like

what, what is, what's the response? What's the temperature out there? Yeah, I would say the

average response is open. Really? And, and, and, and I think, but I think Jeff, I learned that from

you. And so I'm going to, and, and here's what I mean by that. That's the, the challenge to move

content online is something I would probably not have considered, but for our friendship and what you

are trying to help you accomplish. So when I talk to churches about that, I always talk about a both

and I say, we're going to, you know, we're going to help you plan something for, you know, all your

people to go through financial speech university. And then I will ask the question, what about your

online strategy? And then if they have an online pastor and you and I know some of those guys in

common, uh, they'll, they bring that person into the conversation. And if they don't, I'll say, well,

you know, what do you do online? How do you engage? And then I tell them exactly what I told you,

which is, look, if we do it this way, you have an opportunity to pick up people that you won't

otherwise get. And, and then, and they say, tell me more about that. And I tell them the same thing

and I throw in the game of Thrones and they always drop eye contact, you know, they'll also, you know,

once a night there, I guess game of Thrones is off now. I read, I've never watched it. So, um,

you need another analogy, game of Thrones, big little lies, big little lies. Okay. Big little lies.

Okay. Whatever it is. Um, sorry, quick side note. You know, we had, we had a coworker one time

asked me if I'd seen stranger things. And my answer was that what, just cause I, I didn't know it was a

thing, even though as far as I'm concerned, the 1980s are the culmination of our civilization.

I'm saying you would love it.

So all that aside, I, I set, um, I, what I talk about is picking up stragglers. You know, I don't,

I don't want to use this as an exegesis, but I've been giving thought to what does it mean when,

when, um, when Jesus leaves 99 sheep and gets one sheep. And I'm not saying that online what is,

is, is a, is it, is it, is it, is an application of that teaching, but I will say like using whatever

tools we have to reach people that need to be reached for whatever thing it is we're trying

to accomplish in the church, whether it's evangelism, whether it's discipleship, whether

it's community, however it is, you want to draw lines around those boxes, which kind of bead

together. Um, they're, they're kind of into it. And so it's a, no, I'm dealing almost primarily,

almost exclusively with really large churches. That's kind of what I do. So they have a different

set of resources at their disposal. But the hilarious thing is in the last week, like, well,

what do we need to do? Is it something we need from you? Like, no, actually you already have

financial peace and zoom is free. And they go that they said, there's no other spelling. No,

it isn't even our thing. We don't even sell it. We just tell you, give you a vision to do it on

your own. And they say, yeah, that's it. Like, I don't, that's not something we do. We just

want to, we want to create multiple ways for people to access content and groups.

It's amazing.

Five years ago, five years ago, I don't think it would have looked five years ago when it

looked like that. There's no way.

Yeah. I, you know, and I will say this personally, like I've, I've seen just even within the past

two years, um, conversations going from you're crazy. Like when I had these conversations with

pastors and churches, I've literally been told you're crazy 18 months, two years ago. Now I'm

being told you're right. We're just not ready for that. And so I get that. And so then again,

in my context, which is very discreet, I have a beginning and an end. So I'm like, you know what?

You're ready to try nine weeks. Like, just try this. And if you hate it, stop doing it.

Yeah. It's very easy.

Yeah. And that, that's gotta be helpful in the same way that, that in some ways, you know,

financial peace groups have helped launch ongoing communities, you know, ongoing small groups.

Some of these communities are going to continue on and stick, like whether it's for the existing

online pastor or whether it's for somebody who just caught a bug for it. And they're like, Hey,

we just like hanging out with these folks. You know, we're going to keep doing this and we're

going to keep studying the word together or something else. I mean, it's just a continuation of great

community. So let me ask this because you see the big picture and yeah, your context is, is centered

around Ramsey and FPU, which is, which is a nine week. The thing that I've always loved about you,

Ken, is you're open to the honest conversations and you speak your mind. So moving beyond the nine

week window, theoretically, this isn't your Avenue, but I want you to speak into this. What challenges

does the church need to overcome to create a holistically online biblical community that solely

meets through zoom or texting other platform, digital platforms?

Oh, you know, I think that as

that's really a question, right? That's something you want Kurzweil or somebody to,

to kind of throw some mind space at. I know people that pay more attention to that than I do have,

given that a lot of words and a lot of thought. I think this is one of those areas where

where, where change will ultimately become inevitable. And what I mean is society ultimately,

like, like the church will track with that as people communicate, those changes just naturally come.

So I don't know that we, we have a complete idea of what that looks like or what the barriers are,

but if you think about, I mean, and you may have these statistics, like how many workers in an average

week use zoom to connect for something? Like I don't use just zoom and zoom just in communities. I use it

to do my job. Right. Right. So, so it's becoming more and more ubiquitous, which is like my all time

favorite SOT word. I just love that word. So those barriers, those, those, um, as the barriers come

down, it just becomes that much more acceptable and common. So I think maybe the answer is as

community, not church community, but just as community becomes increasingly digital and legitimate

community. I don't mean Instagram influencer, tribe, Facebook, happy pseudo stuff is people

legitimately connect this way. It'll happen. It'll happen more and more. And I don't,

there's folks are, that are always going to be on the front end of that. Like you two,

that'll want to make that happen more quickly. Um, early innovators, adopters, that kind of thing.

I don't, yeah, I don't know. I'm kind of struggling with that answer. It's the same thing I tell pastors,

which is like, just try it. Cause you can, you can undo it. Like you can just stop,

but see, see what value you get. And I think those answers ultimately emerge.

That's good. There's a period in my life where it's very easy for me to meet for a breakfast

meeting at six or 7am in the morning. And I treasured those times of personal community

and Cuban toast. And you know, the whole thing in the cafeteria in Miami, the reality of where I live,

the community that I'm in, the job I do in the stage I'm in life, that meeting today is

basically impossible for me. But digital ones are always possible.

Right. That right there was a hard thing for me to adapt as a, as a campus pastor that I think,

um, like when I was leading a physical location, I was also going through a change of stage in life

and that we just had a baby. And so beforehand I was like, Hey, I'm ready and adaptable for like

6am, 7am meetings, that kind of thing. Where if I would have thought through, and this was a few years

ago. And even though I was super into tech and all this stuff, I didn't think through the concept of,

Hey, this is a great space to leverage for community, for all this stuff. I think it would

have helped me out tremendously. And it also would have freed up the volunteer here just on a regular

basis in the sense of, Hey, like you don't have to, you know, take time out of your work day and show

up to a random Starbucks near you or whatever else. Like we can still meet and have this kind of

community. And it would have provided more time for genuine questions or to dig in a little bit

further.

Mm-hmm. But I mean, again, my own current circumstance, we just recently moved from five

separate buildings in my company into one giant building. It's a huge campus and 800 some 50

something Dave Ramsey employees are all in one place. And do you know what is, is he talked about

that vision? He talked about how creativity was going to be unleashed because we were in one location.

And, and I kind of heard that, but you know, I was not in that. I was not in our new offices two hours

before I was able to have a conversation and make something shorter and better because of the fact

a guy was in my building that was previously in a different one. So it's always going to be a both

ends. We're not, we are, we are analog creatures, not digital creatures. Digital is the tool.

Right. Right. That's good.

Yeah. Love, love that. It's not, and to that, to that point, like church online, a healthy church

online, isn't the abandonment of, of the community. It's, it's the distribution of communities into,

into other areas. And within recent weeks, we've, we did a deep dive, really discovering Church

Anywhere, which is out of First Capital. They're a location, they're doing 16 micro locations,

you know, in a, in a really small town, rural area of, um, Indiana. We just got off an elevation

within the past week as well, talking about their watch parties and about how they're doing

this in a big way. Saddleback is pushing, um, the micro as well. And so like, there's, there's

legitimacy in, in not abandoning the physical space. God causes, God calls us, the Bible calls

us not abandon meeting together. Um, and that, that isn't necessarily what's happening, but

the ability to, to encourage, to strengthen, to disciple, to help others grow utilizing,

uh, the virtual space here, like zoom. Uh, you know, you mentioned a text group earlier. WhatsApp

definitely does that. Uh, we've talked with people, um, uh, Jate, who does the, the video

game. What platform is it? Discord. Um, Ray, we've talked with him in the past. He uses like

a, it's a WhatsApp Discord platform for that. You know, there, there's plenty of opportunities

to, uh, to connect with, with community. One of the things that I love and I, and I heard,

um, play Scroggins over at North Point. I heard him say this at a conference I was at. Um, the

business world looks at the digital disruption as an opportunity. Um, and they see all of the,

the functionalities and the features and the things in the business world adopts this digital

disruption, all this new technology as a way to make what they do better. As a general role,

the church has been more hesitant in that area. It excites me, Ken, that you tell me that,

you know, a lot of the, the larger churches and the mega churches that you're working with

have been pro doing this online and, and FPU may be the on ramping towards changing some

of that culture. Um, that aside though, it's been very difficult, um, in recent years, churches

may be starting to shift and get more on board and may be asking why or how and that. But even

still, like I had a conversation, um, yesterday with the church that was actually going South.

Like they were wanting to shut down their online campus because it restricted and it was taking

away so much from the physical space, which to me, that's the worst thing you could ever

do. But Hey, Hey, let's stop the thing that's working.

Yeah. You know, I'm sorry. I mean, I'm not ostrich head in sand kind of came to mind. I kind

of joked with the guy, but unfortunately some of that, that mentality is still out there.

And so, man, thanks for using your platform with, with Dave Ramsey to try to bring some

awareness to that. And even if it's just for a nine week trial period going through FPU,

man, thanks for helping churches adopt that and start to realize the potential, uh, for education,

education for community and context of using online.

Yeah. Well, this is, I mean, I'm all about discipling people and equipping them. However,

it is that we need to do that, right? Whatever the tool is. So sometimes that'll be in person

back in the day. It might've been a conference call. I've been a part of email list serves

and, and chains going back. I mean, I mean, that'll bring you way back, right? Right. That's an early

nineties thing. And so there's, I mean, the tools change what our, our mission doesn't. And so we want

to, we want to engage in it, but we are. Awesome. Well, Hey, it's been a great podcast. Ray closing

thoughts before we, uh, land the plan here. No, I'm grateful for what Ken has done and how you're,

and how you're encouraging church is to continue to use a digital platforms just to try it out,

to test it out, which is really what all this has been about. For those of you who've been listening

for a while, you know, that none of us have this down. We're all testing things. And so I'm going

to encourage you, you know, even if you don't do online groups, financial peace university is a

great place to start. It's a great structure. And if you've never done FPU, it's changed my life.

It'll change yours. Wow. That was a good plug. I'll take that.

Ken, anything on, on your side, anything to land the plane?

But you know, here's, uh, I'll, I'll, I'll finish where I started, which is I'm probably the least

digitally engaged person, you know, uh, and, and I still have a, I still believe that there's room

for guys like me to access content in a digital or an online environment. And I've helped people

change their lives this way. And when I do that in my life has changed. So there's, um, Paul talked

about being all things to all people. So it all means he might win some. Again, we're not going to

draw a theology of online church, uh, from, from a couple of random verses, but I think there's

something to that idea. Uh, before I say no to something, I always want to say, what if it weren't?

It's good. Amen. So since you're not socially accessible because you don't even know how to

spell Twitter, um, but if somebody wanted to reach out to you, what's, what's a good way or to get in

touch with Ramsey's? Smoke signals. Smoke signals. Yeah. Smoke signals are good. Uh, well, it's a,

it's a pretty good question. Um, so I have an email address, which is Ken.Shafer, DaveRamsey.com. Email is

something that people use before, uh, Instagram and Twitter and Facebook. Um, so Ken.Shafer,

Shafer is S-C-H-A-F-E-R. And that's probably the easiest and fastest way to find me. So we'll,

we'll put that in the show notes, um, as well as a number of articles, why, uh, Ken needs to watch

Stranger Things. If there's anyone on this planet, Ken, that needs to watch Stranger Things, sir, it is

you. Well, maybe I'll check it out. I, you know, I'm, I'm getting, I'm, I'm, I felt pretty good

earlier this year when I finally watched my first episode of the Big Bang Theory about two months

before it went off the air. Apparently there's this new show called The Office also. I might check

that out. Oh, you'll love it. Hurry up. If you have Netflix, it's all going to go soon. It's all

going away. I'm going to speak your language here, Ken. Um, it is a, it is a, if, if you are a fan,

which I know you are Adventure of Bond Buckaroo Bonsai. Yes. The, the stylistic ness of that

in an eighties, the randomness of it exists in Stranger Things. I might have to check it out.

I'll see if I can get it. I do not. Okay. It's not like, you know, what's his name wearing the cowboy

chap. They actually sell it on VHS. Funny enough. I think that exists. Yes. Like I, I just, I cannot

believe you have not gotten into the Stranger Things thing. So, um, we're going to wrap with

it. I'll see what I can do. Awesome. Thank you. So you're so, Hey, this has been the church digital

podcast and not the Stranger Things fan club. That's another podcast that Ray and I will probably

start sometime soon. And, uh, to be that, uh, that speaker. Hey, but this has been a great conversation

on, on church online and creating these biblical communities. Uh, Ken, man, thanks for jumping on this

and just helping us wrestle through this. Um, thank you for always telling me, no, Jeff,

you're stupid, but then listen afterwards and at least being humble enough to say, Hey, you know

what? You may actually be right. Cause that actually is really encouraging. Uh, things. So listen,

a broken watches is right twice a day. So all good. Awesome. Totally insulted right now, but we're

going to take it as a win and I'm going to walk away. So thanks everybody for listening. And we'll see

you next time here at the Church Digital Podcast. Y'all have a good day.