EP047: Jon Crabtree & Why Churches (Big and Small) need a Mobile App

All right, so episode 47 here at the Church Digital Podcast, we're going to answer a question

that I feel plagues many churches out there today. Is my church mobile app worthwhile?

Now, the fact that you're asking that question, I'm probably going to say right now the answer

is no. And first, before you all freak out, that's not your mobile app's fault. I think

there's an opportunity for many out there in the church to better realize and understand what the

purpose of a mobile app is for. If all we're doing is broadcasting weekend experience, weekend

environment, weekend content through the mobile app, then yeah, there's better ways to do that

or other ways to do that, cheaper ways to do that maybe. But there's another opportunity to do

something larger with mobile app than what I think we're realizing right now. To help us in this

conversation, I'm bringing in John Crabtree. John works with Subsplash, who arguably has more mobile

apps out there than anybody else in the country right now. And John has been with the company a long time

and is used to answering questions from people like you and helping people just like you develop their

ministry through the mobile space. And so we're going to bring John into the conversation, specifically

addressing and answering this one question. Why does your church, big or small, need a mobile app?

Hey, everybody. Here you go. We really consider ourselves at Subsplash, an innovation company.

In 2009, we built out the first ever iPhone app for a church. And so that was kind of the birth of

the innovation mindset and spent several years just around many different services underneath that and

have opened up many others beyond. So you think about not only just the app itself, but what services are

under that, media, notifications, event delivery, Bible reading, those sorts of things. And then beyond

that, giving as well as an element of just the overall engagement piece. And so being an engagement and

innovation company, 11 years in mobile. And, you know, really in 2009, the app store was about a year old.

So we've kind of grown up with them. We were there in its infancy. And we are kind of like the kid down

the street from the app store, the neighbor that we grew up riding bikes together in a way. So if you

can think of that analogy, but yeah, that's so like the iPhones came out, what? Oh, seven, six, oh,

seven. Yeah. And it was all it was all web based for that first year. Like they didn't nobody had app

stores. Nobody had apps. And then opened that up in 08. Wow. Yeah. Everything was Safari based.

And, you know, with media, here was one of the big the big pieces is that there was no mobile

responsiveness in the web at that point. So so everything was coming through Safari. And, you know,

the pastor's head was huge because it didn't actually respond to the phone size. So and so that was one of

the first problems innovatively that that we solved was actually building according to Apple's and and

then later Android's specs around how to present media through an app rather than through a web

browser. What I do for the company is really just I'm an evangelist for obviously for Jesus Christ,

but but ultimately, how can subsplash help you accomplish your goals of reaching more people

and making more and better disciples? So. So, yeah, I'm talking a lot on. Yeah.

So you guys primarily work with churches to figure out how to do this mobile app thing.

Churches and ministries as well. We have a lot of broadcast ministries that are seeing some

incredible success through through our system as well. And but we also have some nonprofits,

some charitable organizations and even some businesses. So, you know, that that's a smaller

subset of who we serve, primarily churches and ministries. So subsplash is a little larger than

some of the others that are out there. Like how many how many churches are you helping on a regular

basis? We now have around 12,000 total total clients and probably 97 percent of those are churches and

ministries. So some sort of services because we we've taken the leap. I mean, we really believe in a

balanced strategy overall mobile first, of course, because if people aren't on a smartphone app,

they're on a smartphone web browser. That's pretty much where they're spending about 80 to 90 percent of

their time total. So we partnered with a guy down in Austin. I think you were once in Austin, Jeff.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And his name is Stephen Testone. And he's really a builder built out a

website, basically provider. So you can build your website through that back in 2006. So he was kind

of in it when Squarespace and Wix started to around that same time. And and so he had that going for

about 11, 12 years. And and then we kind of merged with him and brought him on board the company. And

now he's our I would say our director of product development, I believe is his official title, but

Stephen Testone. So so we offer that side as well. And so there's a whole lot of a whole lot of clients

now that are using a variety of different services that we provide. So so you got mobile apps, you got

you got websites, you know, TV apps, I think I've seen where you guys are doing the Roku and the Apple

TVs and how has development on this gone? What do you see like adoption rate with churches? Like are they

are they all about the mobile? Are they transitioning into mobile and web? Are they adopting the TV apps?

Like, what are you kind of seeing in this? Yeah, this the analogy I like to make here is a lot kind

of like a we're just getting to the Super Bowl, right? So so a lot of football teams talk about a

balanced, you know, a balanced team, a good offense and a good defense and all that. We really think of a

balanced strategy digitally. And so I think this aligns well with what you talk about a lot, Jeff is

there is a whole lot of opportunity in this day and age to reach people on different types of screens

and different types of devices. When you look at the actual usage rates across so com score, their

company that's based on a lot of different places, but their their main hub is in the DC area. And they do

research across 16 different countries worldwide. And they they look who's on actual television,

who's on smartphones, who's on their desktops, or laptop, they combine laptop under the desktop umbrella.

But what they found is pretty remarkable. The UK is some like 86% of total digital time spent on their

smartphone, and specifically inside apps. The other 14% of that time on their smartphone

is in the web browser, like a mobile browser. But then you get to like the US, we're pushing 90%

you get to like Indonesia and Singapore, it's like 96% of the time that they're spending on their phone is in

apps. And now that's a wide range, you know, you're talking 50 to 100 top apps across the world,

driven by multi billion and trillion dollar companies. But what's what's really fascinating about that is that

that the churches that have kind of gone all in with us are seeing some pretty incredible results, like there's a

church in Nashville, probably about six or 7000 people on a weekend. But they have something like in the

last 30 days alone, 26,000 sermon and media plays through all of their different screens. So that's a mobile app.

They have their web embeds on their website that they do through subsplash, they have

their TV apps, a smaller percentage, only about 2% of their total is through the TV. But I think

that reflects really, the switch from the television to the mobile device in this day and age, especially in

the last five years. But they're seeing something like 22,000 app users. And those app users on a

consistent basis have about 33 different impressions per month on their app. So when it comes to the

top churches that are really seeing success, they tend to see like around that. And it's because they're

driving people to where people generally are in this day and age, which is on their phone.

So a lesser amount on tablets, and that's important as well. And then it's still around 25% of total

time is on desktop. And so you got to be able to connect all these things together. So all I had to

say, I think it was a long answer to your question, but a really balanced digital strategy is what we

push in this in this day and age. And I could see totally we're mobile, and then tying in that web,

so it's all within the same ecosystem. Like last night, my wife asked me, what's TikTok?

And being in the mobile space, I said, well, it's kind of hard to explain, but it's literally just a

timeline of videos. So you had your Instagram starting out as a timeline of photos. And now,

but we downloaded it together. And it was really interesting, because we downloaded it not in the

app store, we went to their website. And the very first thing it says is download this on the,

you know, and you click it, and it goes to the app store and downloads it for you. And so it's very

interesting, because there's still a funnel going through the web. But then when they want you to

actually engage, it's in the app. So it's an interesting trend that's happening across kind

of all of the big boys.

Yeah, so let's unpack that, because that's a really fun paradigm. So you're a mobile app guy,

but some stuff lives in web too, right? Like, let's talk this out, because somebody out there

is listening right now, and they're like, yeah, I don't need a mobile app. I've got a mobile website,

that's all I need. What's the balance? Like when you're developing mobile strategy, or when you're

talking to a church, like, what's the stuff they should be doing in mobile app? What's the stuff that

they should be doing in mobile web? Like, where is that that tension as they're helping to develop

this strategy?

Yeah, that's a great point, because there's, there's kind of a wide range of things that

are happening under that question, aren't there? There's, you've got Google who owns google.com

and YouTube, which those two forces combined, along with some others, I know I'm very generalizing

here, but those forces combined really drive where you show up when someone's searching for you

on the web. And so you have to have a really nice mobile first and mobile friendly, not even mobile

friendly anymore, mobile first website. You have to have that. And what, what we see in the church world

really is, it's become more of your signposts in this day and age, and less so your engagement portal.

Your engagement portal will be on the phone, because statistics are saying, if you're between the ages

of 13 and 64, and I know 90% of statistics are made up, but if you're between the ages of 13 and 64,

you're spending no less than 63% of your total four and a half digital hours per day

inside of a smartphone app. The other probably 20, 20 ish percent to 25 is spent in your basically desktop,

laptop, browser environment. And then there's a smaller proportion of tablet apps and tablet web and,

and smartphone web, essentially. The idea being that if you, you've got to make that website to be a really nice signpost for,

for, and that's mobile first. And so that means mobile responsive. That means you're using all of the tags and

SEO functionality that a modern website builder gives you. Uh, but, but then when you really want people to

spend significant time, like study time, let's say Bible reading plan, or maybe lead pastor or the community

pastor or someone at the church, if you're dealing with a very large church, uh, you know, usually they have

someone who's like the teaching pastor. And if that person has developed some sort of 21 day or 40 day

curriculum, you want to drive people to your app for that because you can do audio and video better

through that. You can generally do, you know, note taking cloud-based note taking better through that.

Um, and even interaction, like communication back and forth between the church and that individual.

But, but, but in order to be searched and found, we got to have some really great stuff

on the website too. Specifically information that, that people are generally going to be looking for,

which would be in my mind, who's the leadership? What's your statement of belief? Well, you know,

what's your, what's your theological statement? So to speak, where are you located? That's often the,

one of the very first things. And, and, uh, obviously you want giving and media and,

and events showing up on there too. But if you really want people to go deeper throughout the

week, and you talk a lot about the other 167 hours of the week or 166, whatever it is, right?

Two hours on Sunday. What about the rest? And, and for me, it's, if you're going to give people

significant opportunities to engage and go deeper, that's where the app really comes into play

in our minds. And, and we've seen it, we've seen that engagement and success happen for the clients

that we have. So I love that. Most churches I work with are lucky if they get one hour on Sunday,

if you're getting two hours on Sunday, man, you're, you're preachers preaching a long sermon,

or you really love worship, but no, that, that, that's cool. But that's exactly right. I mean,

and that's, that's really the crux of this, where I think a lot of the negativity that comes around

a mobile app or the desire not to have a mobile app is really a lack of understanding the power

of what a mobile app can be, or a lack of even expectation of what the church is. Most of the

mobile apps that I see and, and just, and I'm not going to make up stats because 90% of stats on the

internet are made up, uh, said, uh, Ronald Reagan on the internet last week. And so as a result of that,

uh, like it's, it, but I, I would say that there's a large percentage of the mobile apps that I see in

the, in the market that churches are using and are basically just a glorified weekend service where I

have, um, I have access to a message. Um, I have the ability to take notes maybe for the message. Well,

I mean, a lot of the stuff with the message, seeing the message, I can see that in a web browser. I

can see that in a church online platform, uh, audio only of the message. Okay, great. I can get that

on a podcast. Like there's other things that we're doing where we can pull this stuff instead of through

the mobile app. And if the, if that's all your expectation is, then, then yeah, you probably don't

need a mobile app, but there's so much more power behind the mobile app. Like you're talking about

reading plans or, or, or a lot of these other things that they get into that 167 hours a week.

That would be other than the one hour on Sunday, which makes for a total of 168, which is great.

But once we start to explore that space, you know, the mobile app, I agree with you. It's,

it starts to have a lot more purpose and some of that stuff, you know, at this time and day where

it's not as easy in a mobile web infrastructure as it is in a mobile app. So like, let me ask you this

question. Just what, what are some things that you've seen that, that, that subsplash is doing

that some churches maybe are looking for, even asking about that really dig into this reaching

people from 167 hours a week, not just the one hour on Sunday. Yeah, that's, that's an awesome

question, Jeff. And we've been spending a lot of time trying to really dig into where people are

right now and why, why they're there. And so we've, we saw that on that same com score research,

it just came out on October 31st last year. And, um, if you go to com score.com, I think it is

something like that. Uh, I can, I can shoot an email over to you, Jeff, but, but basically that,

what's really cool about that is that 93% of social interaction is happening, happening through

a mobile app. And so we spent a really good chunk of 2019 really figuring out when people are

communicating with their church and with people at the church in their small groups, if they're

serving on a weekend, right. If they're in that, or they're in a Bible study, how do we get people

when they go into their app to do something like, oh, I'm going to give today because I was just,

you know, I'm in here. I saw my paycheck dropped. I'm going to set my, my gift or,

or set a recurring gift for the first time or something like that. Uh, then they see, you know,

maybe an announcement that came through because of a notification that pulls them into the app.

Well, what if now you you're going in there and you're able to see all the different groups

you're a part of and it, it functionally becomes your, your check-in for the week, you know,

between Sundays with your small group or your volunteer group. It becomes a source of quick,

easy communication, uh, through our new group communication feature, we call it subsplash

messaging and, uh, just continuing to iterate on that to make it something where you can do,

you know, um, encouragement throughout the week, prayer throughout the week, uh, Bible,

Bible reading plans and really commenting to one another, uh, in that way. But the key is it's

living underneath your banner, your own church's banner. Cause the other thing about the digital,

as you probably know, Jeff, being an expert in the space with the advent of the digital era and,

and just everything that's going on with that, we see a very high uptick in your, uh,

the capacity of people's, um, attention to be focused for, you know, a sustained period of time.

But if they're in the same place that is your, under your banner, um, it's a different thing than

being in a web browser on your church's website, but they can click a tab over and get to something

else. Um, you know, within the app, the only thing they're seeing is your, your content,

your communication opportunities, uh, chances to engage with you. And so I don't know if

necessarily know if that fully answered the question, but, but, uh, messaging communication

is a big component that we're working on. And the other thing that I'm, I'm really excited about,

and, uh, I told you this a couple months ago, but it really came from some conversations you and I had

maybe two, three years ago, um, uh, about, you know, how do we connect databases that churches are using

and use that information to really present a more personalized experience to the end user.

And so we're actually working with Southeast Christian and Google, Kentucky.

And they are on, um, yeah, they're, they're basically working with us around their particular

database system and ours to be able to do things like as simple as, Hey, I'm the database administrator.

I just found out from the group's pastor that this person needs, uh, this particular piece of

information. I'm going to click, you know, send this notification, type it in, click send,

and it's going to show up on the, the Southeast, you know, mobile app on that particular person's

device. Those are the kinds of details that we've really been working on, uh, with them.

And there's, there's more to come, but super exciting, super exciting thing.

Um, it's, that's really exciting.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So giving is a major component, obviously of, of church mobile apps, and there's

a lot of traffic towards that. What value does that add, uh, towards subsplash clients? Like what,

what are some things that you're doing in that space on the giving that can even maybe help engagement?

Yeah. Yeah. When we were talking earlier, Jeff, it's a good point about, um, what we're working

on. And a lot of it just comes down to working in parallel to make sure that there's a lot of

companies out there that might give you a, like a giving app, but, and it's like, go there to make,

to make the gift, but there's nothing really else engagement wise within it. Um, that would stir the

heart because ultimately when you're making an ask for, for a tithe and an offering biblically,

there's a lot that said about that, but, but at the same time as a church and as a church leadership,

every church has a different way of saying that, well, when you couch that action of making a gift

within every other piece of engagement that they could be doing with you, communicating with you,

listening to you, watching you, um, seeing the events that are coming up and registering for them,

um, reading the Bible, those things start to stir the heart, uh, in a way that, um, really nothing else

can. Are they engaged on mission with you? And so that's where that giving engagement piece really

comes in. And so we've been doing a lot of work on, um, you know, just, uh, just prompting people,

allowing them, you know, educating churches to educate their people that, hey, giving online is a great

thing, but there is a cost incurred because of how that whole merchant world works. And so, um,

we've got this solution now that you can cover the fee for it for us so that we get the full extent of

your gift. And so just things like that, where it just fits in with the rest of what you're doing is

engagement. And so as a result of that, we really do see just incredible, like two, two and a half,

three times the average per person giving through subsplash giving for churches because it's couched

in all of their different engagement places and not just the separate action to be taken.

Um, that doesn't have anything to do with anything else you're doing at the church. So.

Very, very cool. There was, I was watching a, um, uh, I'll give, I'll give him credit. Although I

think I had the idea before him, but he'll take it. Bobby Grunwell from, um, you know, Life Church,

the innovations guy over there. I was just, I was the other day I was, was stuck and, um, uh,

I was outside of a government TSA office, which is weird because that's not what you expect to hear on a

podcast, but I'm waiting. And the sign says, we'll be back in 15 minutes at the door and the door is

locked and it was 45 minutes. And I'm still waiting for the person to come back from 15 minute break.

Uh, and so finally they do come back. But while I was waiting, I was watching, uh, Bobby Grunwell was

doing a live stream and basically just, he was, was talking about just stuff that hits the cutting room

floor. It's like, man, I would love to have time to do this, but we never really explored it. But now,

you know, now that XYZ projects are done, we're starting to pick some of this up and,

you know, the live stream audience is like, what are you thinking about cutting? What have you cut?

What have you cut? What are you bringing back? Trying to, you know, get them to say something.

And one of the, what he teased it with was, there's lots of things that we were doing in,

in the church online realm that would be extremely powerful in the physical realm. We just need to

figure out how to do it. And, and, and, and he, and he alluded to this one thing and I'm like,

I have literally said it on this podcast. So I have it recorded on the record that I said it before he said it.

And it comes into this idea of, I would love to see a church. And even if this fits under mobile

app, that's cool. I would love to see a church utilize chat in the physical space. Because we

have this thing where we're like, okay, we need to, we multitasking in a virtual environment,

you're capable to do more because you're staring at whatever. But I think when you're in that physical

environment, you're in that second space anyway. And I think there's an opportunity to utilize that text,

that chat as, as a, a second input in during a, during a message, even specifically to keep people

engaged, to funnel in secondary information, to compliment what the speaker is saying on stage.

And so like, I've been suggesting to people figure out how to make WhatsApp work, figure out how to make

whatever. But like, if there's a chat option underneath, um, you know, subsplash under the mobile apps,

man, I would love to see churches start to explore with that instead of be like, hey, turn the, turn

the phone off and put it away. Your Bible apps already on there, figure out how to engage with

that. You want them doing social media posts in the middle. The trick is really to, to use that,

that mobile app as the window to keep people engaged, uh, during that service time. Any, any thoughts on

that? Absolutely. I think that's something that is so underutilized is just how are we bringing that

technology into the live space as well. And it's something that the engineers, you know, on a, on

that particular team in our, our, uh, company is really looking at is how can this thing be flexible

enough that you could use it almost anywhere because people have their phones with them pretty much

anywhere. And, and, and not only that, but what I love about your podcast and specific Jeff, because

I've listened to so many is just, we are entering an age where the old paradigm of what church is the

model is shifting. And a lot of people are talking about the church, you know, churches closing their

doors, more churches closing their doors than opening them in this day and age. Right. And so, um,

that's not a good thing on the, the life index of, of the church. Right. When you think about it,

um, that's a negative birth rates are not good in, uh, for humans, uh, negative birth church rates are

not good for the areas that they're, they're occurring in. And so if we don't change the model, um, to fit,

you know, where our culture is while retaining the, the core, the core things gospel, you know,

that's central, um, retaining the core message, that's, what's most important. Um, beyond that,

the model is something that, uh, we start, we need to be start being very creative and flexible with.

And so, um, that's awesome. Jeff, I'll give you credit ahead of time. I don't,

I didn't, I didn't know that, but you've got the proof. So whether it's you, Bobby or both, it's like,

I'll, I'll, I'll take him to town toe to toe. Uh, that's okay. He'll probably produce some email from

like 1994. Before there were even like mobile phone. I don't know. Uh, Ronald Reagan probably

said that at some point in the sixties. So we'll give Ronald Reagan credit for it all. Yeah.

That's awesome. Could I add to that too? Cause, um, life church is such a, such an awesome

forward thinking church. Um, and, uh, not every church can be them, right? Most, most churches across

the world are a hundred people or less on a weekend where subsplash really is trying to come in is, um,

we've got an idea of, and it's a bold, hairy, audacious goal, but the, the goal is to equip every

church in some way in our lifetime with whatever tool of ours that, that will solve a problem for

them. And the idea behind that too, is, is just making sure that, um, what I love that life church

does is they make so much of their content and their innovation wide open. And so we, we love

churches who do that and, and, and, you know, and, and not only that ministries as well. And,

and that's, I think a lot of the heart behind us. Yes, we're a company, not a church, but we strive to

kind of be along that same line of how, how can we equip churches of all sizes, um, in this day and

age for that shift? Yeah. So, well, here, here's, here's the reality. And I've, I've said this publicly

before is that we need companies to do the innovation of today. I, I truly believe this. I

don't think as a general rule. Yeah. Life church is the exception. Cool. As a general rule, churches

cannot be innovative. Um, the, the bleeding edge tax that's involved in doing what we're doing,

an individual church cannot do that. I can tell you, I've tried multiple times and I have felt the pain

point of going to that financial director and saying, I need another X number, thousands of dollars

to keep the model going. And then the evil stare that comes back because like the, the organization

today that the church is structured as cannot be innovative. They can't feel that bleeding edge.

Um, the, the, the cost that that's involved in that, the ability for organizations like subsplash to,

to step in, to provide some of that innovation and then spread that out across multiple churches,

uh, is, is, is awesome. And we need more organizations to, to step up and, uh, and, and be a part of it.

One of the other churches that I think are very advanced in the mobile scope is, is this, this idea

of, um, church home. Yes. And, um, and I, I don't think there was subsplash there. They've got their own,

you know, in-house development company and they're, they're actually developing that to, to one day

release it out, I think to others. And they're, they're kind of going in their, in their own

direction. But one of the things that, that I really am intrigued at here is, is this idea of,

of a centralized church model happening in the mobile app. You know, a lot of times with, uh,

with, with church, and we talk a lot about this in the podcast, it's, you know, the mobile app drives

to a, to a, a physical campus, uh, church online is the front door to the physical campus, or it's

maybe a side door to somebody that's already engaged at the physical campus. Uh, but they

really took, um, a church home and, and several others have, have taken a much more aggressive

stance in, okay, we're going to create a, uh, a digital door, a digital ministry opportunity

for us to engage with people who are nowhere near our church, or, or maybe even to the point of like, uh,

uh, Jay Earhart doing, um, discord with love clan or, or some of the others. It's a digital only, uh,

expression of this, that, that there is no, no physical. When you look at the mobile app, maybe

just unpack here for a little bit, like what, what doors open up when you have that mobile app, uh,

connection point with, with people, when you're trying to create not a complimentary thing that feeds

into a physical, but maybe an, an only thing where it's a digital only expression of worship.

And any, any thoughts kind of on that? Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned church home and I'm,

I'm up in the Seattle area and they're in Kirkland right across Lake Washington. So

no more than nine or 10 miles separate. And we have a lot of friends over there that we've had

conversations with about, Hey, how's the strategy going? What have you guys learned in this transition?

Because that was a bold step to take by them. And, and, and for me, uh, always kind of having been just

had a soft spot for innovation and, and people who think different to use the apple phrase from

back in the early, what was it? Late nineties, early two thousands, but really just wanting to figure

out what have you guys learned from there? Because I think thought partnership above all else is,

is really important in the church today around, uh, how do we, how do we advance the

kingdom in this new culture in this new era? So, so all that to say is one of the things I think that

they learned from conversations we have with them is that you, you went that direction and then you

found out that even then people were gathering together physically, whether it was at homes or at

a coffee shop or whatever. And so it became this digital turning into the physical. And I think that,

I think that comes down to, um, there might be some generational differences where even if someone found out about church

home through the app, they probably, if they're of a certain generational persuasion, they still feel

more comfortable meeting face to face and together. And I think, I think there's something to that

because it's the way the church grew up, right? Home churches, physical meetings, very small home

churches and physical meetings, but nonetheless, but I think like you were talking about, um, Jade and, and, um,

love clan. You have people there in gamers who are not comfortable with the face to face, but discord is

where they go for community. Well, we need to, we need to hit them there. So it's just so fascinating

because I don't know if there's a one size fits all strategy, but I think if we're too afraid to take

technological innovation risks, we may not come to those learnings that Jade or church home have found

and be able to get to a place where in the next era, and I'm talking like five, 10, even 20 years down

the road, we're not going to know what to do at that point. If we don't have people out there on the

front lines doing exactly what you're talking about. I'm mid millennial. So I'm, I'm 35 born in the mid

eighties. And, and so I do still remember a time in my elementary school classrooms where there wasn't a

computer yet. And then, you know, third, fourth, fifth grade, they started showing up. And so I'm still

bordering that, that, um, generation where technology, I remember a time with the rotary

phone. We'll just put it like that. Um, but I mean, my, my nephew who's 21, um, you know, he,

he does not ever remember a time where a cell phone wasn't nearby, you know, within arm's reach. Um, so

how are we going to reach people if we don't reach them where they are at this moment? So,

yeah, you know, it's, it's interesting. And this is coming from a guy that used to edit audio with

a razor blade. I literally learned in college how to, how to do that. So, uh, I'm not, I'm past the

millennial. Let's, let's just say it that way. I'm 42. Um, I, I was in, I was almost graduated from

college before I bought my first cell phone, which is funny. Cause my daughter who's like 11 is like,

daddy, everybody else has a cell phone. They're like, well, dang it kid. I didn't. So you're not,

uh, I'm that, I'm that dad. She has an iPad, but not a cell phone. So it's a thing. All right. So,

but here's, here's the thing when it comes to, to Jake, like, and just getting into this,

people have this, this concept and perception and innovation always has, has people that are pro and

con it. And, you know, with this podcast that, that we ran recently with Jake, you know, talked about

this, honestly, like from, from a listener side, I don't talk a lot about stats, but it was the second

largest podcast that we've launched to date. Um, it was just a lot of people really, you know,

caught in on this and, you know, and I'm looking at the stats and I'm like, this is awesome. I'm

celebrating. This is great. I even messaged Jade. I'm like, Hey, congratulations, man. Your podcast

like took off. It's the second largest that, that we've done to date on this.

And then he's just, he gives me like an LOL back on Facebook messenger and then start sending me,

you know, I'm not saying it's hate mail, but it's people who are, who have found him on,

on Facebook and are sending them like, you're not a church and just like starting, you know,

to rip this guy. And, and I'm, I'm like, Jade, I'm so sorry, bro. Like, you know, how, how send them

to me. You don't need to take this. Let me take it. Let me help. Let me, you know, you know,

I started to like, you know, bow up a little bit, you know, dude, I'm 40. Like, you know,

you take your shots at me, not some, some kid that's doing this. That, that, that being said,

there's always this, you know, risk when you do, especially in this. And I think this is one of the

things really in, in church online and digital technologies where you're messing with people's

traditions. And I, and I think that's really why the church is so far behind when it comes to

innovation, because it's somebody's tradition. It's somebody's history. It's somebody's past that

you're now messing with. And while businesses are like, screw the past, I'm, I'm all about making

the money for today. Let's be innovative. Let's be the only people out there that are doing this

thing. You know, the church, the church body really struggles to let go and to focus more on ahead

because so much of the model of today with the attenders and arguably consumers is, you know,

don't move my cheese or to paraphrase the Tom Rainer book, don't move my podium. Like you're not,

you're not allowed to mess with tradition. You're not allowed to move with past. It's almost,

I was on a podcast once and Tom's like, it's like major league baseball where you can't change the way

some rule is because Babe Ruth didn't deal with that in like 1914. And it's like, you know,

it's 2020 now, bro. Like do things different to be more effective. And so a lot of, a lot of what you

guys are doing and I've done, I've, I've loved our conversations and the subsplash conversations

because it's, Hey, you know, this would be really cool. If you could do this for the church,

churches would love this. The church can't afford to do this on their own, but I'm willing to bet if

you pitch this idea at like 15 churches, somebody else is going to love that, you know, and even seeing

some of the stuff you're doing now with the church in Louisville. Um, man, that's, that's just awesome.

That's good stuff. Part, part of what's so exciting about what I do is, um, my dad, actually,

you mentioned Tom Rainer. He studied under Tom Rainer at Southern Seminary, um, and got his PhD in

theology when I was kind of, uh, late middle school through basically, uh, end of high school.

It's when my dad was there. So this is, you can think late nineties, early two thousands and his

whole, uh, work in his PhD was literally the church growth movement and how from, let's say the forties

to the nineties, the church grew. Well, the fact of the matter is, is like my, and my dad keeps talking

about this because he continues to read, you know, books from top thought leaders, but he's like,

what worked in the forties to the nineties, we're in a totally different era in this day and age.

And I think the Lord has brought people up, um, you know, who are very steadfastly devoted to him,

but also he's brought them up with the skills and mindsets of technological innovation,

innovating models, design thinking. How do we design the church for the 21st century? Ultimately,

again, there are ways that in scripture, I think, uh, you know, the Lord has instituted what needs

to happen at church. But the, the question is, can we model it? Can we change the, can we put the

pieces around, move them around to make the model fit more where we are in this day and age? Cause

we're not in the forties to the nineties anymore. So often we're, we're holding onto this idea of this

church growth model, you know, and, and, you know, I, I hadn't heard that it had stopped in

the nineties. I didn't know that was a thing. Uh, but I know that cause I know people are still

clinging to it. I mean, even one of the churches that I work with, I went out multiple churches that

I work with Christmas was rough. Um, and in a lot of churches across America, numbers were down.

And even the fact that I'm saying numbers are down, it's numbers are down when you're looking at the

church service attendance, which is a horrible stat to look at because it doesn't evaluate what your

church is 168 hours a week. It evaluates that one hour on Sunday, which was down in many of the

churches that, that I know. Um, but that's arguably because engagement and attendance over all is down.

Um, and so it's moving away from the church growth model and understanding there has to be something

new and different. Um, one of the churches that I'm working with, and this has nothing to do with

mobile app, but everything to do with the future of the church. So, uh, but one of the churches that,

that, that I'm working with, like it's, it's long and hard conversations towards, uh, discipleship,

disciple, disciple making evangelism, learning how to serve, uh, a community and engage in a

community and move away from creating environments where, where staff and pastors are responsible for

creating environments. And instead moving the staff and the pastors to, I'm responsible for

creating disciple makers and stop doing a checklist where consumers will come in and see a service and

then go out for another two to three weeks before they come back again for another tentpole, a shot of

adrenaline, spiritual adrenaline to get them through. And instead, Hey, let's a staff be responsible for

training people in discipleship. So that they're capable to go out there and train other people and

witness to others and to create that disciple making movement. That's not driven by the one hour on

Sunday. Um, I won't drop a bunch of stats because we've been making fun of stats all days, but there's a ton of

valid stats, not Ronald Reagan from the 60 stats here towards, um, creating disciple making movements and

how that's how people today are looking for spiritual guidance. That's what they're looking for.

Organizational evangelism, uh, is going away quickly. The world does not care what we as a church think.

The world think cares what people think. And it's our job to get our engagers, our listeners, our audience,

um, our members, the Christians who are underneath us to become that new messenger out there.

Yeah. Mobile app is so much a tool towards that. I was going to say that with that, um, what's one of

the questions I often ask executive teams at churches is, do you know how many people are in your

database? You know, whatever, every church has some database of record tracking, you know, who's been

there at least in the past at some point and maybe where they're from and do they have a family and,

you know, is the whole family there and all that. I say, how many people are actually in there?

And, and then I follow up with how many people actually show up on a Sunday?

And oftentimes those numbers are wildly different, wildly hot, much more people in the database,

like five, six, seven, 10 X, as many people in the database as people actually show up on the weekend.

I mean, part of that is like people move to different places, um, and out of the region,

or they, maybe they move churches. You never know what, what happens, but the final question I ask is,

how are you, how are you still communicating with that huge chunk of people that aren't showing up

every Sunday? And this is the way to do it is, but, but then I always, I always say, um, you know,

and, and it makes my managers a little bit, uh, uncomfortable here, but I always tell churches,

don't do a mobile app if you're not going to do it well or right, because you end up shooting

yourself in the foot, you have pretty much one shot at, at like developing that trust. It's really hard

if you do it improperly or incorrectly, I should say. Um, if it's not quality, if it doesn't match

the user experience that they, that they expect of like those top 50 apps that they probably have at

least five to 10 of them on their phone, because we're, again, we're competing with billion and

trillion dollar companies that have some of the best engineers in the world. And so the question

is, does your provider that you're working with on the mobile app, or is the custom company that you,

that you're working with because you decided to go that route, do they have the infrastructure

and support needed for, for it, you know, because you, you probably don't have a fully fleshed out

it team. Like let's say, uh, Microsoft has, or any, any company in the Forbes, uh, 500, uh, fortune 500,

excuse me. Yeah. But, um, but then more importantly, like what is the user experience and what do they

feel if you're just porting in like, um, a web video or, or something like that in as your media

solution, chances are people will just go to that outside media solution instead of your app because

they can do other things there too. Do you really want your people on WhatsApp or Facebook messenger

is like their primary communications point with your church? It's, it's a question there. They're

free platforms. Um, they, they have some good things about them. The question is, is like, do you want

to send people to your platform or to another, another platform? And do you want them spread out

amongst five, six, 10 platforms, you know, for here's for doing payments and finance and giving,

and here's like where you go for media, but actually you go to YouTube or Vimeo for media,

but you go to, um, you know, SoundCloud or, or Apple podcasts or Spotify. And so you're sending them

to all these other places. If you can do it well with a really good user experience, you'll see that

kind of, you know, three, four, five times as many app users. Cause people, even who don't get there

except every three weeks, they'll still have the app and you'll still be able to get to them and

they'll still be able to get to you in those two to three weeks that they miss. So, uh, I had a guy

call me out on Facebook, uh, Joe Radicevich. I'll drop the name because now he writes for the church

digital. He called me out and I was like, be part of the solution. Come on board. Uh, but he,

he called me out for this. He's, he said, Jeff, um, I love the stuff that you're creating and you're

doing. Um, I am, I'm a small town pastor and he, uh, he said at his, the church he's at 55, 66,

under a hundred, sub 100. Uh, and he says to me, not the numbers matter, but in context of where I'm

going, 80% of churches in America are under 200. I think you alluded to that stat earlier. And that

may be a Ronald Reagan stat. I don't know, but I think it's legit. Um, and it's legit. And

so the, I think the average size church in America is 71, 63, that's under 100 once again.

And so it's okay. And so here's my question for you. Talk to that sub 200 person church. Um,

how can they utilize a mobile app? You want to get a mobile app tool in every church in America,

80% or under 200. Why should they be using subsplash? Why should they be using mobile app?

Number of reasons. Uh, and I'll talk about the product in general and, and where it really starts

to match that type of user experience people expect if they go into, you know, um, any of these top

apps, uh, across all of our services, we have a high view of user experience design. And, um, we have a

couple of people who've been in it pretty much since 08, 09. And so when you start putting those,

that kind of expertise in there, um, but, but really it comes down to engagement, like you,

yes, the app. Um, but what does your website look like? Do you have someone on staff who is

proficient in, um, marketing in this day and age and getting, getting just information, not out to the

congregation? Let's not even talk about the, like rest of that small community. Let's just talk about

your congregants. Um, do you have people who are proficient and skilled in this technological age?

And I think where subsplash comes in, uh, as opposed to some of those other mobile app companies is that,

um, when you partner with us, yes, you're getting an app, but we can provide you your website that's

tied in, like we were talking about earlier, um, to, to where, you know, people who move into your

community are going to find you because you're going to hop up the search engine score because your

website gets, um, basically, you know, through, through the, the snap pages by subsplash website

builder, there's just, it's built according to the latest Google search engine rules. So now your

search engine score pops up, you, you start moving up that list. Um, the question is as, as a 200 person

church, do you still need an overall digital strategy? And we actually partner with, with churches not only

to provide a product, but a service of, uh, kind of a client success. Um, there's actually what we call

client success manager who will actually walk along and they've got, they've got a unique experience

because, um, they work in technology or have had a technology or marketing role before, but they've

also worked at a church or ministry. So, um, we have a mutual friend, uh, you know, from one of the churches

that you were at, who's now at subsplash and that's his role. He's been a worship pastor in Miami. He's been

a worship pastor out here in the Seattle area. And he's also worked in technology and marketing. And now he's

helping churches, um, of all different sizes, you know, 200 person church, uh, even up to, to larger

churches, uh, to not only give them a product, but really think about how are you guys doing church

today? And does it match the current era, the current culture? Does it match what people expect?

So, um, so I'd say even beyond the product, uh, the service that is provided, the consulting is a big

piece. Um, so make sure whoever you're working with that you've got good consulting on that, that end,

especially if you're a smaller church, cause you probably don't have as many resources as a larger

church to really get expertise in that way. Um, on the product side, the, there's gotta be something

that differentiates your product from, from a competitive, uh, non church product, right? So

I'll just start with media. Here's, here's an example. Um, the cool thing about YouTube for churches

is the searchability and the fact that Google owns it. So your search engine score,

if you do it right on your website, it's going to make you very visible to people who don't know

about you. The question is, once they know you, do you want them going there? Uh, and, and actually

being in the YouTube environment, because you start getting, they start getting things that they're not

just going to YouTube for you. And so they're getting served up things by YouTube that are,

you know, that, that aren't, that have nothing to do with you as a church. Um, now on the other end,

if you want them to go deeper with you and they're already invested, what's cool about the subsplash

media delivery, um, service is that if you're in the app, you can start on the video, but let's say

you need to hop in the car. You just click switch to audio pulls up right from where you left off,

pop your headphones in or hit car play and boom, you're off and running and still staying engaged.

Um, and so those kinds of things that aren't really available anywhere else,

if your church app doesn't have those, um, it probably won't be as compelling to, to use or utilize.

With Joe, the guy who called me out with the small church, 50, 60 people,

like he's the only pastor is the only staff person. And, uh, and so he speaks technology,

which is why I like him. And I've got, he, I've got him on board with us doing blogging and some

other things, but through the church digital, just continuing to kind of target that sub 200 church.

Uh, but he's the only person like on his staff. And so as vendors reaching out to be able to help

and provide some of that wisdom for, for a small church, you definitely want to find somebody that

speaks to that. And I can tell you with sub slash, just my own, my own personal experience with them

over the years, they are phenomenal with this as I was sitting here. And I want to throw a couple

more things at you. I actually was thinking of a situation that I'm in right now that I'm like,

Hey, there are other churches that are struggling with this. And I don't know that you provide this,

but this would be a great idea that would help churches down the road. What we're looking at here,

uh, with women churches that I'm with is this idea of a discipleship pathway, the whole, like the

process that it takes to become a member or to, you know, learn about the church, to get connected

into groups, uh, purpose-driven church. They call it one-on-one, two-o-one, three-o-one, four-o-one,

like all that mess. Yeah. Um, we're in the process of trying to redo that with our, with, uh,

church that I attend Christ journey here in Miami. And with that, what we're trying to do is flip the

classroom so that we're not watching the, or listening to some guy lecture for an hour in the

thing, but instead we're watching them, you know, on a mobile app or something online. We're taking an

assessment test, which is fed in, and then we're coming in into the classroom, not to listen to a

lecture, but more to ask questions, to model, to, to demo kind of what we've learned. And so to make

it much more interactive instead of just sit and listen, I would think there's probably a way that

you could piece that together with subsplash, but I would love to see something where that was more

structured, uh, with the assessments with, um, video consumption, even, even interactivity, asking

questions through the mobile app. So I'm just sending people to the Christ journey mobile app

in that they're taking the process instead of this hodgepodge different thing. That's all over the

place. That to me would be a big win, uh, within the app thing. So just, just a thought. Yeah.

Stay, stay tuned. There's, there's a lot coming in that direction. So I won't take credit for

that one then because it sounds like you're working on it. That's cool. Well, here's the great thing

about the church right now is I really have seen, you know, uh, across the church, just a, just a new

wave of exciting innovation and people being kind of on similar wavelengths in their thinking. So,

Hey, John, thanks for jumping on the podcast here and, uh, and glad to have you on, uh, where can

people find you or to get connected in subsplash? What's a good next step for them? Yeah, that you

can find me, um, uh, at John at subsplash.com. So you can always email me your thoughts on this. Um,

you know, this episode, even I'm, I'm happy to chat with you. Uh, and yeah, it's subsplash.com is our,

our website. And, um, we're also on all the different, um, places as subsplash. So,

you know, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, you name it. Uh, and, uh, yeah. Awesome. Hey, well,

John, thanks for joining us for, for John. Uh, this is Jeff with the church digital. Thanks for

being here and we'll see you next time at the podcast. Have a good day.