EP049: Aaron McClung & The Why of Personal Mission

Episode 48 of the Church Digital Podcast. Jeff Reed here once again, and I'm excited for this

podcast, at least as excited as I can be, considering I am very, very sick. Yeah, it's

been a rough, it feels like it's been a rough 2020, just the entire house seems to be individually

getting sick one after another, after another. But I've had my stretch a little bit this week,

and I've been coughing a little bit, actually a lot a bit. I may have lost a lung somewhere

around this week. So if you, in fact, if you do have a spare lung, feel free to hit me up on social

media, DeerFeg, I'm on all the platforms, and let me know that you have a spare lung, and we're going

to figure out how to, I can get it, because I'm probably going to need it the rate that I'm going.

So, but we have an awesome podcast for you. So here's where we are. We're pausing from technology,

we're pausing from a Church Online talk with this podcast in particular, because, well,

technology is the means to the end. It's not the end. The end in our situation is gospel. And a lot

of the gospel is getting people to understand who they are in Christ. And so to have this conversation,

we're going to a technology guy who's kind of being pastoral, because, hey, technology guys can be

pastoral too, right? Like, that's a thing. We talk about that all the time. It's okay for a technology

guy to be pastoral. So here on the podcast, we're bringing in a good friend of mine and a guy that I've

enjoyed working with in the past. His name is Aaron McClung. He runs a company literally called AM. And

they are a digital company. They do a lot of website design, graphic design, branding, marketing, like the

whole gamut. And this particular company, like I've worked with a number of church staffing, multiple

projects over the years. I consider them friends. I treat them like family. And when I work with them,

I treat them like a staff member. They are that closely integrated into my life and my projects. I

could not imagine doing church ministry without them. And I don't, I honestly don't know that I could

give a better testimony to them than that, as this podcast is not about the tech. It is all, it is all,

it is all about the individual. You see, there's a thing here with the discipleship. And really,

this is the core that I believe will help church online be effective. It's not the new church platform.

It's not the new tool. It's not the new toy. It's not another feature. It's understanding that our job

is to help people understand personal mission. And what's interesting is Aaron has really kind of

figured out that even more than just church online or even church attenders, churches, organizations,

businesses, like there's a lot of people out there that don't understand the why for themselves on an

individual level or even the why for themselves as a business. And so Aaron, you know, who has guy who

has been starting to, well, you know what, I'm not even going to tell the story because I want Aaron

to. So here's what I want you to do. Listen to this podcast. We're not talking tech. We don't need to

talk tech. The podcast you need to hear is the one you're about to hear right now. So you got Aaron

McClung, president and CEO of AM and myself, Jeff in the church digital in a podcast episode that I am

calling the why of personal mission. Okay, everybody. Here you go. Yeah. So my name is Aaron McClung.

I live in Hearst, Texas, currently. I grew up in Oklahoma. I grew up going to Baptist churches and

spent a lot of time in that world. And God called me and saved me from age of five at a BBS. And so

ever since then, I've been just trying to follow him and in the ways that a child can all the way up

through growing up and just always felt a sense that God has just called me to serve him. And I didn't

always know what that looked like. I didn't have the typical pastoral personality, as you'll probably

find out shortly. But wasn't always the guy lighting up the room, if I could say it that way. But I

always felt like really strongly that I wanted to serve the Lord. And so going through college, I

decided to, there was a ability in design and graphic design and creativity. And so I felt like that was

something I needed to do. And I started to look into that and realize that I was gifted in that and had

ability to help people understand concepts visually that are easier said in pictures than in words

sometimes. And so as I explore that, I realized that that was exactly what I was supposed to be doing

and got through college and went to immediately started working at a church as a graphic designer.

And so not in that long after that, I opened up my own business doing that helping ministries and

churches and businesses, as well just, you know, get the message out with clarity, and creatively as

possible. And so that's what we've done for now over 20 years.

Yeah. So what year what year did you launch your the the agency? Or what year were you on staff? Kind of

like, put that in context? Yeah. So in 1998, I started doing any freelance work in college for some

ministries, worship leaders, things like mostly like CD covers, things like that was a lot of that

like Disciple Now, curriculum covers, things like that. So yeah, and then I worked at First Baptist

Ulus from 1999 to 2001 here in the DFW area. So and then started awesome.

Yeah, I was doing 19 actually 2000 99 I graduated from college and right out of college I started a web

design company called eBeliever. And I was actually in Fort Worth, you were on the Dallas side. So we were

like literally contemporaries in the same, you know, territory. And obviously, a am you guys have been far

more successful than my little business was. But it's just like those those days of web design and

graphic design, man, those those were rough days. I don't know if you ever gone back like 20 years ago,

kind of look back at the old work. And it was, I mean, I can remember talking to a pastor and I was my

company eBeliever was doing web design for churches. And I distinctly remember this, I was talking with a

pastor in Arlington, Texas. And the pastor looked at me, the year was 2000. And he's like, why would I pay

you money to build me a website when my 10 year old son can do it for free in Microsoft front page.

And I was like, well, if you're happy with what your 10 year old son can generate in Microsoft front

page, then you and I really don't need to talk. And but that was man, like, remember when like flash was

cool. Like that was like that flash opening. And then you'd have to have the flash navigation. And

like that was like the best thing ever. We've come a long way since then, man.

Yeah, things have changed quite a bit. But the it was always fun to do the flash websites. There was

just like, as a creative, it was like this open canvas that you could do all this amazing things

with and you had no accountability to whether it had to work on a mobile phone or any of that kind

of stuff. So things have definitely changed. But yeah, it's been yeah, it was just the only thing

you had to worry about was the desktop experience. There was no mobile phones. There was nothing. It

was just just give me the desktop. That was that was easy. Things have I guess have gotten a little

more complicated since responsive and you know, Apple decided to boycott, you know, flash and all that

fun stuff. One of the things and I love am and we were I was talking about this with with Aaron

and off air like I just I've managed to really utilize this this company a lot and I've seen

them come into very bad situations where websites were failing and code was crashing left and right

and have really kind of depended on this company to get us out of bad situations. And so as much as I

can like an endorse a company without endorsing actually, it's my podcast so I can do whatever I want.

You know, I just I really love working with these guys and seeing the heart for ministry that they

have beyond even just the website. It's it's more of they really have a heart for doing what's best

for the ministry, the church, the experience that the least in context of me that I've ever worked

with them on. And it's really it's this this heart that I wanted to bring Aaron in to really

dive into it because their their companies pivoted a little bit, I guess would be the word. I don't

know if pivots the right word, but there there was a there was a change in philosophy that at least

that I've I've seen from the outside over the past year or so. And I really wanted Aaron just to kind

of talk about this because I'm excited about how this impacts individuals and how it can help

organizations and churches achieve much higher clarity. And so Aaron, man, why don't you just

talk a little bit and tell us a little bit about this overflow, kind of what it is and then how you

as an organization, how you got to this place where you realized you needed to pivot.

So we have a new we call a signature process that we call it overflow. And so the idea is that your

brand or your culture, your organization should communicate your story basically out of the

overflow of your heart, like Jesus was talking about, for people, it's like out of overflow of

your heart, your mouth will speak, but we believe your brand will speak from that. And if you can speak

from the core of why you exist, what's your call to what's your unique story, that that's going to be

the meaningful connection point that people are looking for. And that's how they make decisions

on what they buy or buy into. And so that's, that's the general idea of it, of the backstory

and the name, but what it is, it's basically a branding process starts with discovery sessions up at

the front of it and really digs into the core existence of why the organization is there, whether

it's a business or a church, there's an origin story and there's, there's leaders there that chose to

be there. They're leading the organization and they typically have a vision that God has called

them to. And so it's, it's uncovering that it's clarifying it. It's using our agency skills, but

also trying to, to get to the place where it's articulated clearly and well, and all the story

that you're having as an organization, all channels, all, all, you know, every opportunity that you can

communicate is going through the filter of what that core purpose is. And it's, it's smarter,

it's trying to be smarter than just talking about what's in house, but really the why.

And so that, cause there's science behind that. There's the millennial generations changing,

everything's changing about the way people buy into everything. And so they want meaning and they

want impact. They want to know that they're buying into a story that they can put their time and their

dollars into, and it's going to making lives better. And so that's the story. We've got to go in and find

out what is unique about that company, that organization, and then build a story around it. And so I had to go

through the same thing. So, uh, doing this agency life for over 20 years, we're on our 22nd year now,

I think, um, depending on how you do the math, but that's, we, the first deck, two decades of that

was just doing good work. Like that was the bar for what success was. It's like, uh, I didn't have a

vision. I didn't know having this great business model plan in place. I was just trying to do good

work with what brought us and be fair to our employees. To me, that was enough. That was

enough to make me want to do it and, and, uh, do a good job. And, um, however, about a couple of

years ago, God began to change the conversation with me to something else. And so it was like,

where are we going with this? I started to see that the industry is changing. It wasn't, you know,

like you said, it's always, you know, there's always some cheaper, faster way to do websites or

whatever. And so it was, that may have grown us, but that wasn't clearly wasn't going to,

you know, that could be the thing to take us to the next round of the next 20 years. And so

I started to wonder what the answer was. And so for the first time ever, I was like, well,

where is this going and what do I need to do? And I really didn't even think about asking God about

it, to be honest with me, first of my whole life, but I didn't really know to take my business to him

in that way. And so I always knew he was kind of watching out for me and trying to take care of me

because he cares about me, but never had the kind of relationship to where I was asking specific

questions and expecting him to lead me. And so that had to happen through those couple of years.

And so as I, as I dug more into that, I started to realize he does have a purpose for me. He has

a gift to me for a very specific thing. He does want the business to be his, and I'm just a steward of

it. And that I can reach people through it. And that there's way more meaning to be shared and to

be attracting our team to, and digging it. Like I said, I wasn't, I never saw myself as pastoral,

so I didn't really even try, honestly. But the more I dug into that, the more I realized that,

no, that God wants me to help impact our staff in meaningful ways. But there was, they needed a

story to connect to, for that to be meaningful. And so went through a whole bunch of that. But like I

said, I had to start with me. And then once I did that, and I started, God gave me a specific vision

on how to do this agency thing differently. I had to dig into how to do that. You know, months later,

there's now a literal process for it. It's got a name, it's got steps. And we're doing that every

day. And it's made a world of different work. So let me, let me pick in, and I don't want to get

overly personal, but I'm just curious, because, you know, I get asked all the time, you know,

Jeff, are you pastoral? Do you consider yourself a pastor? And I kind of, kind of just put my arms

up in the air and it's, I don't know, do you consider me pastoral? Like, but you're, you're

a tech guy. Like what, what, how do you, how do you leverage tech with, with being pastoral? And I'm

like, cause I work with tech to be pastoral with people who are in community. So I, I'm just curious

because you're, you're asking and you're saying things about helping people realize, and we'll unpack more

about this, but there's this tension of, you're not, you don't consider yourself pastoral. Why

is it just in your personal journey? Well, it's been the thing that you're like, I don't consider

myself pastoral because of this.

Well, I'm highly introverted. So it's like, I'm always the quietest person in the room. I'm not

usually the one to kind of lighten up the room and making everybody feel comfortable. It's like,

I'm usually just trying to hide and not be noticed. And so, but here I am running a business

with 20 plus employees and they're all looking to me for vision and they want to be inspired

to work. And so, and they should be, and they should show up to work every day with something

where they know that something, a life is being changed and they need to know how they're doing

that. Cause that's what we're designed to do. We're designed to, you know, connect with

others because that's what the image, the imprint of God in us is, you know, his, that's what

he does. And so, um, that meaning that we're all looking for, they're, they're looking for

it from their workplace. And that's, that's something that's changing, I think. And so, um,

I didn't, I didn't recognize, uh, that I, I guess, you know, you go through spiritual gifts

tests, you do things like that, try to figure out, you know, God, I know you've got a ministry

purpose for me. Um, and, uh, I, I know the general callings of making, uh, disciples and,

uh, helping other people applies to me, but you know, how do I do it? And so, um, how

do I do it at work? How do I shepherd this team? And I never realized that I could do

that. And so the more I've gotten to understand myself and do, do self-assessments, do things

like that, the more, uh, tried new things, the more confident I get. And now I do realize

I can impact people. And it's, uh, it's just like a different world here in our company,

even just our, in our, in our company, it's just like everybody's, we now have processes

where everyone in the company understands how to under what their purpose is, like literal

processes. And so that's changed everything for us, helping people, you know, feel valued.

So, yeah, I, I think the defining the why it was funny, you made an off comment about blaming

the millennials, or maybe you just said because of the millennials, I would kind of blame them

a little bit, but honestly, like for me and I'm 42 and I've had this conversation in context

of the podcast as well. Like it, I almost feel like I went through a midlife crisis a couple

of years ago where it was, all right, so I've been doing this thing, you know, to, to your

point, you were using the language, um, you're doing the work. And, and, and a couple of years

ago, I really just came to this place of, why am I doing this? Like, what's the, what's

the overall purpose behind this? And is the way that I'm doing it, is it, is it the most

effective? Now for me, my, my, my end game, my goal was, was discipling people and helping

people understand God's purpose. Uh, and, and for whatever reason, I really feel like

my, my calling has been in that, in that digital scope. And so this midlife crisis that I was

on made me pause and kind of evaluate, okay, do I, am I, am I called to do it this way?

Is this the best way what I'm doing it? Are there other ways to make that happen? And

that really started wrestling with my, my overall purpose. And as a result of that, honestly,

in my track record over the past couple of years of show, God, God took me down a road

that, that I didn't necessarily want to go down. And all of a sudden I'm being connected

because he's in control. It's not me and my wishes that I'm getting, being connected

into relationships and in purposes and, and connections that, that I've never dreamed that

I would be a part of doing things for the kingdom that I never imagined even six months

ago, how things have pivoted and changed so quickly. But it's amazing when, when God's

in control of that. And so it's exciting to me because through your organization, through

AM, man, you're, you're literally helping people, you're helping organizations, you're

helping churches like wrestle with some of this stuff. What, what stories are you, are you

hearing? What stories are you seeing as you're helping churches wrestle with their, with their

purpose, with their why?

Well, it's, it's a, it's funny because we talk about the why of a church and almost all

people think, well, aren't, don't all churches have the same why? Like, aren't we all on the

great commission and doing those kinds of things? And so it's a great question. Um, I think

I typically, or I'm like, well, do you have, I mean, why are you at that church? Like, right?

What is God, what's the vision and what's the calling he's called you to? And as if we,

if there's not a unique calling in a, in a local body, then, um, why don't we just shut

the doors and go to the one down the street? So obviously we know there's a unique thing

there, but the church hasn't necessarily done a lot of work in trying to figure out what's

unique about it or what, uh, what is it, what are people, and on top of that, what, what

do people, why do they make decisions today and how, how has that changed? And so, um, what

are, like you said, the millennial generation, the ones after that, what are they looking for

and how are they making decisions? And the church has to wrestle with that, um, and make sure

that their branding and marketing is telling that story well. So we are seeing that, um, we

do dig into these processes and what we're finding is that they get really excited when we

get into helping them uncover what that's going, what that is. It's like, it's really

fuzzy for churches. It's that to begin with, it's like, you know, they're skeptical maybe

that there is something unique to say about them, but man, there is. And so you start to

help them uncover that. It's just like, I've seen so much joy and just like clarity. It's

like, ah, because a lot of times they work with consultants that, uh, you know, you might

hire a consultant to help you figure out what your value statements are, your purpose statements,

those kinds of things, but they're typically not creative agencies. And so the, um, I actually

don't know of any other ones that are doing what we're doing, but there's not, there's

not one that's can do both at the same time. And so that, that means it makes it hard for

like a typical consultant. It's hard for them to visualize it and bring it to life and show

a church or any organization what it looks like. They can speak into, they get to what it is,

what, how do you word it maybe, um, what's important, but having a creative agency come in

and just like do all of that with all the skills that we have at the same time and visualize

it. And they see all of it at the same moment. It's just like eyeopening for them and encouraging

and exciting. And it just infuses energy into the whole organization.

Yeah. You know, I can tell you being a guy that's worked with creative agencies, being a

guy that has run a creative department, uh, a couple of times in a church, like I understand

the, the, the joy of working with an organization that has clarity. I understand that. I don't

know that I've experienced it a lot because a lot of times you don't, you don't have that

clarity. Um, one of the things that I love about this story is you're taking the time, not

just to create the graphics, to create the ad campaign, to create the, the, the movement

that whether it works or not, I don't care, man. I'm just, I'm just, you know, cash in

the, the, the invoice to check when it comes in, you're helping the organization get its

ducks in a row by discovering it's, it's messaging by discovering how to be clear, uh, by, by helping

it understand its why and its purpose. And from there breaking it down, uh, a lot of times,

honestly, uh, especially dealing with consultants and I am one that's cool. I can say this. Uh,

a lot of times it's, it's, we need to solve, we need to solve the problem, but the big picture

like that's, that's not, that's not in my scope. You're not, you're not paying me for

that. Uh, the holistic view of coming in of, of what you're doing through overflow of helping

people understand their, their why helping the organization with clarity, understand what

its purpose is. Now that's so much easier to market and so much more effective because you're

able to do that with clarity instead of promising X and really delivering Y, which makes for,

you know, unhappiness on, on the backside. Why is clarity? And we, you and I have both

experienced this. Honestly, there are people with church staffs out there that have experienced

this. So this isn't a hard question. We all know this. Churches often struggle with clarity.

Um, the, the, the finish line is constantly moving. The target is, is constantly shifting.

Um, organizations are trying its best to reach people. The, the, the goal is high reaching

people for Christ. But as a result of that, it shifts, it moves on, on a regular basis as

we're trying to be more effective. Why do we struggle with that clarity piece in a church

environment? What's, what's the overarching issue maybe culturally that, that we need to address?

Is there a common thread as you're working with churches? What are you exploring? What are you

seeing?

Well, well, there's the obvious kind of the busyness of the church cycle and the, the focus on keeping

the machine running. And does anybody actually have time to stop and breathe and think about,

is this actually working? That's rare. And so I think a lot of times when we go into a church

and start asking these questions, it's like, we all get to pause at least for a day or two

and sit in these questions with each other and, um, decide if, you know, what is the answer to the

questions? What are we focused on? Cause there's not usually scheduled time to stop the machine for

enough time to get on the same page together and remember, you know, what we're called to. And it's,

that's just the pace of it, the, the, the, just the grind of it. And so, um, for us, it's, it's amazing

what a few simple questions can do to bring clarity for an entire organization. And so it has to start

at the top. The, the, the leadership has to be on board that I can't push this, this rock upstream. I

don't think that's really how this is designed. So that's why it's critical that we get buy-in from the

top of the organization because we need them to, we, we don't know how long we're going to be

involved, right? We have to know, we have to give tools and give clarity and ability to articulate,

but it has to be from the pulpit to the email, to everything. And in between of every channel,

it's got to be lined up if it's going to work the way we want in that, uh, the clarity is all about

focus. Like if you can get your purpose figured out and you can get your why cleaned up, then it's all,

it's like providing you a filter for staying, you know, keeping from getting distracted all the time

with all this stuff. And so if you can't, if you can define that and say, okay, this is why,

why we're here. This is what this church is called to. This is maybe our three-year plan or one-year

plan, whatever. Um, and this is how we're going to get there. Then it should bring like the ability

to say no to a lot of things. I've seen a lot of people struggle with that. Like they don't,

yeah, don't have anything to say, you know, no to this. And because it's, you know, it's scary to say,

you know, in a place where you're, everybody's kind of looking to you to be like, you know, to serve

them. And so, um, that's a lot of tension in that statement, but, uh, uh, we've seen those

conversations, the processes, just getting everybody in the room together at this right time. Um, God

can show up and, um, get some things off their chest that they just haven't had the ability to do.

So, yeah, it is, it is hard organizationally to say no, you know, especially the, the cause is great

to the, to the, to the Romans. I'm a Roman, to the Jew, the Jew, to a Greek, I'm a Greek. And so we

have that. Um, but, but the larger purpose is, is that if we're everything to everyone, then from a

messaging standpoint, we're really nothing to no one, you know, and, and we, we lose the overarching

purpose of the organization. And somehow by simplifying it down, uh, we find that we're

more organizationally structured. There's clearer purpose behind it. We're more structured towards

achieving that goal. But what's interesting is when we play, when an individual church plays its part,

what it really does, I believe is it opens up for other churches to play their part rather than,

Hey, you know, I live in Miami, arguably Miami has 98% lostness. Um, like their stats are,

even if you were to assume the best stat, it's still like 85% lossless. Like it's, it's crazy. Um,

how, how little church has a purpose here. And for any one organization to say, I want to be a part of

reaching the millions of people, like I'm going to tackle it all. It's ridiculous. There's no way to,

we have to organizationally work together towards doing that. And churches often struggle with that

because of, for whatever reason, they want to own the larger piece instead of realizing that

maybe it's more effective for us to own a smaller piece of that. One of the things that, that, that you,

you stated on your website, and I really want to unpack this because you are, um, a self-diagnosed

introvert. I am a self-diagnosed introvert as well. People are like, well, Jeff, you're so

extroverted. No, no. My extrovertedness is my defense mechanism that covers up how actually

introverted I am. And even having conversations like this on the, on zoom are just exploding

my brain right now. So, but you said something, um, on the website that, that I want to, I want to,

I'll get your take on this. Cause this is good. His business is relationships. His being God,

God's business is relationships. God is after a relationship. How does that imply and fit in to

like what you're doing through overflow? How does that relationship component come into play at 2020?

Well, that's typically a conversation I'm having with business owners. Um, they, they tend to think

of their business as a separate thing from their faith. And so my, my desire to tell that to them,

and this would apply to church leaders as well, but the idea is that it's not your business, right?

It's God's. And just like, just like you have to get saved, your business sometimes kind of have to

get saved too. And so give it to him, let him run it. Just like your life, all the stuff we hear in

sermons about transferring ownership of who we are and what our dreams are applies to business leaders

too. And applies to their business. And so if you let God run your business, then he, it's about him.

It's his vision and his vision. We know it's going to be about other people. And so his business is

relationships. That's like, that's the, the, you know, the business he's building is the kingdom.

And so, uh, to use your business, uh, if it's going, if you're going to give it to him,

then your business then becomes all about relationships too. And so, um, most business owners

are trying to survive. They're trying to get the bottom line built up. Um, I guess you could argue

that the churches maybe are, are focused on outcomes as well. But, uh, basically if you're

going to give your business to him and let him run it, then it's going to, you're going to have to

remember that, uh, the, the thing you're growing is other people. And so how do you do that through

your business? So that's, that's the idea there.

So, you know, I'm listening to the guys, EO fire, um, Gary Vaynerchuk. I'm listening to some

of these business guys and they, from a digital standpoint, they challenge me. And sometimes,

honestly, I look outside of the church world to be challenged, um, to find some digital guidance

and direction of what the future is. And it's interesting me to kind of filter that, um, through,

uh, through a spiritual lens, but, but you're asking secular businesses, you're asking business

owners to really like release the, the business to God. And so like, let's, let's just be very

practical at that point because somebody out there is like, wait, what you want me to do

what with my business? That's, that's, that's separate from my one hour on Sunday when I attend

church over here. So explain to me what it is and why I should give up my business, my, my workplace,

why, why that's God's business. What, what does that even look like?

I can tell you practically what it, what it looks like for me and how we talk about it with our

business owners. So, um, like I said earlier, like I ran the business for 20 years separately in my

head, trying to be obedient to general things, the general callings of God through some mentoring

and some discipleship in this area by other Christian business leaders. They kind of enlightened

me of what, that the Bible has much to say about business. It has much to say about running a business.

Where does vision come from? What does God want for, for my life? Well, if my life is mostly spent at

work time-wise, math-wise, um, then that's got to line up too, right? Uh, then this idea of that he

can run it better than I can. Cause I, again, I spent 20 years, um, doing well and probably too

comfortable staying where I was and then trying to figure out what's next. I needed, I needed, I don't

have this entrepreneurial thing that I see in a lot of business owners. And so I need like God to say

what's next. And so if I start, if I believe that he cares about me and this business is, is just a

vehicle for our relationship, that's what changed my perspective. It's like, he wants to guide me and

he knows my heart is in the business and my time. And it says, you know, where our treasure is, which

where our heart is. And so if he wants to reach me, it's probably going to likely be through the

business. And so why not, why not trust him with it and to let him lead it. And then I start to do

that. And I started asking specific questions that I never asked before. I practically like, okay,

God, what is the vision for my business? Is it a, is it yours? Have I, have we made that clear?

Are we good? You know, if we, have I turned this over to you and you start to pray through that and

you, you know, God begins to speak because God is always speaking. You look for confirmations

through scripture, through others, uh, through the Holy spirit. You're, you're asking God specific

questions like, God, what's the vision? Okay. I'm waiting. And then I'm getting answers. And so,

um, and you get more confident the more you do that. And before you know, you're asking God,

should I hire this person? Should I take this step? Is this what you want the business to do?

Is this how you want to use this money? If it's your business, I'm stewarding it and I

must hear from you. And so before I know it, my dependence on God and my relationship with

him is so different and so improved. Um, and it's like night and day from the first 20 years.

And so it's just like, and it's working because apparently God knows what's going on. And so

that's the crazy practical side of, there's a spiritual side, there's a tactical side, but they

are both, they chase to the father as well. They are as much as I can, uh, give him leadership

and ownership of the business. Then I haven't, I've just been blown away by it. And my relationship

with him is truly that walking in the cool of the day kind of thing that he, he was after

the whole time. And so I pulled up a stat as you were talking, and this is something, this

is Lifeway research. This is 2019. This is last year. They ran a research. We'll link to

it in the show notes. So you guys have, have it. 51% of people, um, who are Christians, spiritual

matters do not tend to come up as a normal part of my daily conversations with other

Christians. So the majority of people, it's 51%. Um, it's not, it's not existing one out

at one out of two. That's not even like, you know, to the point of I'm willing to give up

my business. It's almost to the level of, yeah, like I'm not even talking about God outside

of the one hour on Sunday. And so like what you're describing is, is really going to be

a foreign concept to people where, uh, you know, there, there, there's this, uh, I'm presenting,

you know, people define worship as the literal 20 minute block of musical noise that comes off

of the stage for that one hour on Sunday. Scripture tells us that we're present our bodies as a

living sacrifice, holy and cleansing to God. This is our spiritual act of worship. And it's, and it's

more than just, you know, the, the low rumblings of that bass guitar coming through the subs, which is

so glorious to hear, but it's really more of who we are as a Christian and what our life entails

entirely. And so you're dropping this knowledge on some people and it's probably, you know, exploding

some brains a little bit, uh, which is awesome. I, I, you know, I loved a little emoji of the exploding

head guy. What are people's responses when you, when you talk through this, are they appreciative?

Are they pushing away? Like what's the range of emotions people are hearing as, as you're kind of

coaching them through this idea of, of giving of their, of their business, of all they are to God and

letting God be central of, of their, their work, their home, their family, everything.

Well, obviously Christian business leaders are the ones that are mostly being challenged with

this. Like if you're, if you're on that, you're not on the, you know, if you're not in a relationship

with Christ, you're just going to be like bouncing that off. But the ones that are Christian and

they're hearing it, they're being like, they're kind of blown away because they've never heard

anybody put that together like that. Like, cause I'm, I'm a, uh, I'm a teacher. I'm a learner.

Right. And so I don't come with just fuzzy stuff. I've got a framework and I put it in an order

and I show it to them and say, yes, here's your relationship with God. And I walk it through.

It's from vision to, uh, your wine, your purpose and your, your mission statement and, uh, your

execution and how you're going to get there and how you're going to achieve that vision

and then how you're going to engage and empower your team to get there. So it's a framework that

I'm putting in front of a very, uh, technical and, uh, built off of similar business thinking

models, right? Business operational models, but just putting God at the beginning of it and

saying, this is actually all about him. And so when I walk them through it, it makes total sense to them.

And they've never seen it laid out that way. And then we start talking about overflow specifically

is just a little piece of that. Right. And so we're actually trying to create an entire culture

around this purpose that's in you. Um, and when you do that, you're actually building a purpose

around God because he's the one that put the purpose there. And so, um, to what degree they

want to share that or lead that story from a gospel standpoint, or it's kind of up to them.

Um, they're usually their reaction is, wow. I never knew that there was a logical linear flow

to understand this. And so it kind of makes sense to them because business owners want actionable,

tactical steps to follow. Um, and so, you know, make it easy for me. And so having those conversations

a lot, that's where my, my gifting comes. That's like the clarity and creativity combining. It's kind

of coming up with this kind of unique flavor to it. It's just stuff I've done myself. It's just,

I've gone, God gives me what I need and then I'm sharing it with other people. So, uh, but that

rate, the response has been great. Yeah. I'm, I'm literally sitting here trying to think of the next

question. And my question was going to be, okay, so I own a shake shack. What is giving God my shake

shack? What is that actually gonna, gonna look like? What, how is that going to affect my business?

And as I'm sitting here waiting for you to finish, and I was going to ask the question,

the first thing that pops in my head is Chick-fil-A and how that, that is, as a business,

like how is, how does, you know, giving God my business, how does that affect my messaging?

How does that affect who I am? How does that affect my culture? And, and, and arguably there's

others, and I'd love to hear some other examples, but, you know, Chick-fil-A as an organization,

um, has been very vocal in standing up for, you know, who they are and, and who they are not.

And as, and as diverse as they are, man, it's good chicken, man, that place is, is always busy.

And they've managed to stay in good favor, still holding to their, to the morals and ethics

of, of what, you know, that, that family has instilled years ago. What are some other examples?

Shake Shack's a bad example, but, but what else you got?

Yeah. Okay. Well, I'll give you some of our client examples. So there's one client that's an egg roll

manufacturer, a based company. They, it's a second generation, 30 year old plus egg roll manufacturer

here in DFW. We have these conversations like, okay, let's figure out why, why you do this. And so we dig

into that. And at the end of it, it's basically, we've got to come up with the taglines and the stuff

you're talking about messaging that drives this story home. And so, um, we dug into it and said,

okay, what is meaningful? It's happening here. Well, it's, it's an immigrant family that came

over from Vietnam with nothing back in the sixties, running from all kinds of terrible things in that

country. They come to the U S with nothing, chasing the American dream. The mom of the couple is

basically trying to figure out how to, to run the company with, uh, and she's basically got $40 in

her pocket and she got this crazy story of how she's landed here and how to get, uh, her family and

going and surviving in this country. And so these are the people that started this and they're

Christians. And so now it's, uh, 30 years later, this, the daughter is now the CEO of the company.

And, um, we basically have a minority owned faith-based women led company. And so you can

see, I'm already got things that are starting to pop of what I can drive a meaningful story around.

Sure. Um, from there, long story short, um, the tagline has gone from things like, uh,

you know, I'll just, you know, just more generic things around, you know, honest food and things like

that, making, you know, quality products to our new tagline is made to love. And so I've been,

you know, the, the people, we care about our people, we care about our customers and we feel

like, you know, they are made. Those are, those are words that are Christians can identify with

those words that someone is made to love and that the food is made to love. And so we now have this

conversation changing, starting piece for all communications. And they can tell a, you know,

10 second, you know, simple surface level story about their, where the quality of their girls and how our

people are made to love. And, um, we want our food to be as well. And, or you can go really deep into

the culture of, you know, how they hire people and how they attract people and, um, how they honor

people, um, in that same tagline. And so it's like, that's the kind of thing I want. I want to give

everybody a meaningful conversation starter. And then we build a beautiful brand around it visually,

uh, all the creative assets. And so the entire organization now has these conversations the same

way now. And they're all, the starting points are the same. It's super consistent. Uh, it's just like

the ownership, they have exactly what they need to tell their story in any context. And it's,

it's working, attracting people to the organization in every way. So how do people

and organizations, how do they, how do they work with you? What's the process to get started?

Um, well, the beginning conversation would be making sure there's a fit there. Like, uh,

where are you at? What do you, what do you, do you have a conversation that you're trying to change?

Uh, typically people come in, uh, with the pain point, right? And so, you know, are we willing to go to

this brand story and revamp it and then reply it to all the channels? And so, uh, to get started,

it's having an honest conversation about where you are, what you're, what can we affect? What can

we impact? And then deciding if overflow is the right choice for you. Um, sometimes we need to go

deeper. And so it might be, well, I don't know what my purpose is. I don't know where I start and I'm

a leader. We might have to have some conversations around a purpose discovery process where we help you

figure that out. And then we just start applying it to the company and help you, uh, you know, build from

there. And so it's, there's a couple of different starting places, uh, typical starting places

overflow. And we work on that and that scope and then decide once we've built it, how far do we

want to take it right now and keep going from there? What's the, and so we've talked about

businesses. We've, we've talked about churches. I mean, I really feel like even if you take the

business out of this, if you, even if you take like the, the, the church out of this, I feel like

there's a challenge for the, for the individual where there's an opportunity, I mean, baked

in a little bit of this and I don't want to like overstate, but there's like a, there's

like a discipleship. There's like a personal mission kind of challenge in this where, where

we as individuals really need to, as, as individual Christians today, we need to wrestle with some

of the, some of the why on this and maybe recognizing, uh, some of what the personal

mission of our life is and why God's has us where we are in our workplace, maybe not as the boss,

but maybe as a, just a general worker, why God has us in our, in our community, in the home that we

live or why God has us with our kids involved in the stuff that they're involved in. Like how can

you, mate, do you ever wrestle with this? Like how does this overflow maybe apply down to an individual

level? We start with that conversation a lot. So we, like I said, we have a, we have a purpose

discovery process that all of our team goes through and you dig into your spiritual gifts, your

personality profile, um, your strengths in general areas. Like what, what, you know, why do you, you know,

what do people say you're great at? And cause we're trying to show them that God is putting exactly

in them what he wants them to do with their lives. And so most people, most people don't even know what

their purpose is. I, there's a stat that says only 10% of people know what their purpose is,

which is, it's way too valuable to be sitting there dormant. And it's way too much focus and

clarity to know what your lane is like, God, you created me to do this thing. And so when Jeff

needs something and it's mine, I'm up, you know, do I recognize the skills and gifts he's called me

to? And am I operating in that when I see your need? Cause that's going to show me that what God is

asking me to do. And I'm going to see the biggest fruit in you when I do that, instead of trying to be

somebody I'm not, if I can be aware of myself more, then it's going to, it can change lives.

And it's, it's putting confidence in people that they never, they never had. And so when people

know themselves and they know what God is calling them to, it's just like, it resonates so much

stronger and deeply when you operate in it. And sadly, most people just have no awareness of any of

that. That's what we're about with individuals for sure.

It's, it's so important. And I literally had coffee this week, uh, with someone who's wrestling with

this. This is a person who's been on staff for a number of years, a church staff. And, um, I've

literally brought up the calling piece and they were like, you know, I'm not, I'm not sure what I'm

called to. And, and, and, and it's this, this gross reality of, and it gross isn't even the right

word, but it's, it's the stark reality of, of people that, that are living lives without realizing what

God has them for. And maybe they haven't understood it at a personal level to achieve their, their own

clarity, or they're so busy, you know, to your point, organizations are often so busy. They don't

have time to ask the wise. Maybe they're so busy, busy living out the lives and the identities that

they've kind of stumbled into on their own to put money on the table, food on the table, um, and things

like that without stopping and realizing, wait, what does God have for me in that situation?

And oftentimes to do that, to have, you know, God be head of your, your organization and have that be

the wire to have God be head of, of yourself. Like there, there's a humility in that where you have

to release control. When we look at the Beatitudes, um, blessed is, are the meek or the poor in spirit,

are they that mourn, um, you know, Matthew four and five, it's not a overly controlling,

demanding power type a person that that's, that's blessed in those situations. It's blessed are the

people who are humble, arguably who are teachable by God and shapeable by the, the path of the spirit

who are in tune to, to where he's leading. And that's dripping all over this. The ability to

stop and to ask the organization, why do you exist? Allows God the opportunity to drive instead of you

forcing will upon that situation. And, and whether, you know, I, I said this, uh, once in a blog, if,

if, if, if you are responsible for your victories in life, then you're responsible for the losses.

And so every, when you get, Hey, good for you, but the failures are all over you. Um, if the, if you,

if you're not responsible for the victories, if you allow God to own the victory, then God owns the

failure, uh, because he's driving through that and allowing you to grow through that process.

I would much rather give God the victories and allow God to cover my, uh, my failures than for

me to be solely responsible for that. Giving God control is, is so much clearer. And, and Aaron,

I love your, your, your path and even just the courage to organizationally pivot 20 years into

developing an agency and realizing, Hey, I'm, we're asking the wrong question. And they're not ready

to answer the question. What's best for the, for themselves. We need to change the organization

away from just a creative agency to an agency that's helping organizations answer the questions

they really should answer. And then once it's answered, then yeah, we can definitely be the

creative aspect, but there's so much value in what you're doing beyond just that ad campaign or that

website or that social media look. So, man, thank you for your, your diligence and your patience.

Um, with that, cause I'm sure that's a hard thing to get a 20 year organization to kind of

turn like that, but it's awesome to see how God is using you in this process. So man, as we're landing

the plane, any last thoughts? No, I appreciate your time. It's your, you're definitely hitting on some of

the, the high points and the, it's reminding me of some of the, just the challenges it's been to get

there. And it's, it takes a lot of faith and vulnerability and courage and just willingness to

uh, do things that you're not, I'm not like, I've done so many things in the last two years that I'm

was never comfortable or never thought I was capable of. Um, but it's been completely

praying through it, asking God to, you know, I'm going to trust you that I know you're bringing these

opportunities. Um, and I think this is going to work. And then you start to build on it and it keeps

working and it's like, yes, this is God and is working and changing lives. And I'm just excited

to be part of it at this point. So the thing I love about this entirely is that you are, you have

literally put yourself through the same test and you've redefined yourself through this, why that

you are asking other people to go through and you yourselves are a living testimony of, of, of how

you've gone through this process. So man, thank you for being just diligent and faithful in that.

And, uh, we're going to be looking excitedly to see how God continues to do things through

AM agency. So, hey, uh, we're going to wrap right here. This has been a great podcast. Looking

forward to what's next, uh, for Aaron. Uh, this is Jeff with the church digital. We'll see you next

time here on the podcast. Y'all have a good day.