EP051: Ed Stetzer & Defining a Successful Church

Hey, this is Jeff with The Church Digital. We're going to get started with the episode here in just a minute, but before we get there, we all know Stadia, the organization that's been powering The Church.Digital.

Well, guess what? Stadia is opening up some learning communities. We've been doing this for a while now. We've got about 70 churches that are actually part of these learning communities.

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I'm a podcast operator. I understand this. It's not going to change your church.

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All right, everybody.

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast powered by Stadia Church Planning.

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All right.

Episode 51 here of the Church Digital Podcast.

This has been the most fun I've recorded of any podcast to date.

We were laughing hysterically.

And it actually took a lot of editing to assemble this whole conversation together.

It was so much fun.

And I didn't feel like letting you all listen to like 15 minutes of laugh track going through this podcast.

Ed Stetzer is on the podcast.

Now, Ed is a man.

I would call him a mentor.

It was funny.

I actually ripped him at one point on Twitter for him assuming the mentor role.

But the man's been a mentor in my life and a huge inspiration behind what I'm doing here with the Church Digital.

Now, he doesn't always agree on the technology piece and the church online.

And so we dig into that even a little bit here in the podcast.

But when it comes to discipleship, when it comes to multiplication, when it comes to understanding the culture of who we are here in the Western Church and digging into the research that he's done through Lifeway and a number of different other resources and organizations that he's working with and influencing.

Man, I can't think of a better person to come on the podcast here and to really talk about where the church of today is and how we need to get from where we are to where we need to be.

How we get unstuck.

Because, listen, we all look around.

We all feel the tension.

We all see the decline.

We see what's coming.

We can acknowledge that it's there.

Nobody's fighting that.

But how do we get unstuck?

How do we get the lead out?

This is really the conversation that we had with Ed Stetzer.

Now, I can dig in here and we can talk about, like, I mean, I could spend an entire episode, an entire podcast episode talking about this man's resume, the churches that he's spoken at, the books that he's written, the articles, the blogs, the conferences that he's been able to speak into,

and the influence he's had all across of America, the American church, and even the international church today.

Instead, man, I really just want to get out of the way at this point.

And I'm bringing in Ed Stetzer from the Billy Graham Center of Evangelism, from Moody Church, and a number of other sources.

I'm also bringing in Ray Diarmus, online pastor, digital pastor, excuse me, at Christ Fellowship Miami, and myself, Jeff, with the Church of Digital,

in a conversation that I am calling, Defining a Successful Church.

Okay, everybody, here you go.

I think the first message I ever produced for you when you were teaching over at Christ Fellowship was, like, 2011.

Yeah, dude, I was there for, like, six years as teaching pastor, yeah.

Yeah, and so it was a lot of fun.

And I remember you dropped a line.

And this is a thing that I really want to kind of, like, park on a little bit here, because the heart of church today, I think, I think is missing some things.

And I want to, whether we get to the online context and church online and the digital context of this, but really, like, the core of it is this deal.

And you said this line in a sermon, and it stuck with me for years.

When you build churches like theaters, don't be surprised when people act like showgoers.

And when you said it in a sermon on stage in front of 1,000-plus people at Christ Fellowship Miami, their Palmetto Bay campus, it literally, like, hit me like a ton of bricks over the head.

I was just curious.

Like, what's the context?

Where were you to kind of come up with that?

It was funny.

Like, I tried to Google that quote.

I don't see it a lot.

Like, and Google hasn't found it, so, like, not a lot of people are blogging or talking about it.

But it's such a powerful quote.

I'm just curious, kind of, like, what's the story behind how you came up with that?

Well, you know, when you kind of look at and begin to ask questions about what's causing a consumer-driven mentality in churches, which a lot of people bemoan and lament.

You know, I got 50 books on a shelf right over there about, you know, how bad it is because we're a consumer-driven church.

But then you don't acknowledge that there are some things that have an unintended impact and that might create that consumer-driven church.

And one of them is, again, when you build churches like theaters, don't be surprised when people act like showgoers.

Because we're actually trained to be – I mean, I go to a show, go to downtown Chicago.

We're trained to be passive spectators.

That's our job.

That's why these wonderful people on stage are doing great things.

And then we walk into a church.

It's like a theater.

We kind of revert to that's our job.

Look at all these people in the front doing great things.

And so we get to be the beneficiary of their gifts, the teaching gifts and the worship leader's gifts, maybe a video or something.

But we're not using our gifts.

We're passive spectators rather than active participants in the mission of God.

Now, that's not the only thing in that message.

And, by the way, blessed that you remember a message from that long ago.

But also, too, it talked about a little bit like the clergy-laity distinction, right?

So I'm clergy.

I'm ordained as clergy.

That elevates me to in people's minds.

You know, then they're lay people.

What do they do?

They just lay around all the time.

And so the language, you know, reverend or doctor or pastor, the language teaches people that their role is sometimes more to pay, pray, and stay out of the way.

And the real ministry is done by the ordained clergy in the front of a stage.

And they see themselves, regular Christians see themselves as sort of objects of the ministry.

They're ministered to rather than partners in the ministry that we minister together.

I think it's a real huge thing.

I spoke at Wheaton Chapel just recently about this topic is that there is a sense that we have created in many, many places,

a consumer-driven, customer-service-friendly church.

We do things well.

If you like the music, you like the preaching, you like our children's ministry, you like our student ministry, you'll stay.

And then what you end up with is a whole lot of people not on mission but who are kind of just, you know,

going to float down a lazy river with other Christians in a right temperature for them and their customer service needs are being met.

And that's my concern and where that quote came from.

One of the ways that we unintentionally teach people to be passive spectators is the way we build our churches.

Now, to be fair, you know, come up to me and you say, well, Ed, you know, you're talking about Christ Fellowship.

You know, that's a thousand seat plus auditorium.

But, you know, if you have 50 people, are you going to put them all in circles?

Are you going to, are you, how are you going to not create rows, right?

That would theater like rows.

And I don't really have the answer.

I just wanted to complain about the current situation.

So I'm like a good church member.

I just bring you my problem.

But what I would say is, I don't know that you can change it.

I don't know there's another way for a large church to meet.

I mean, I guess you could just eliminate a large church, but I don't know there's a place that they could meet that would cause them not to be passive spectators.

But it doesn't mean that you can't be aware of it and work to overcome it.

And, you know, we talk about helping people.

Listen, we need you to move from those rows to sitting in circles.

You know, we have to help people to move out of that passive spectator Christianity.

But the passivity leads us to this place of consumerism, right?

Where we're now, we're just tentpolling our spirituality to that one hour on Sunday, where we're getting our fix week to week.

Lifeway, I mean, I'm not sure if you were involved with Lifeway at the time, but even Lifeway is showing that more and more people are not engaging or talking about spiritual things, even outside of the church.

It's all centered around, okay, I'm a Christian for this one hour.

I'm consuming, exuding this a little bit with Christian friends.

But outside, when it comes to Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, it's not part of their lives.

I think that's pretty common where what happens is there's a Sunday practice doesn't become a daily process.

And this is, you know, Paul writes in, where is that?

Philippians 2, that you obey not only my presence, but also my absence.

So when Paul was there, they were walking like Jesus, and he commends them.

When I'm not there, you're walking like Jesus.

And that's not true for a lot of people, but they've got to see that daily process of spiritual formation.

Eugene Peterson called it a, you know, this long process, you know, and long obedience in the same direction.

And I think when we walk that way, and we're blessed to walk that way, God honors it.

We grow.

But I think, again, what happens is that people are generally born again.

That's key to preface to all this.

Sometimes just get stuck in their own moment where they're not on mission.

And that's part of what we're talking about here.

How do we get on mission?

How do we help people to hear the words of Jesus as the Father has sent me?

Even so, send I you to respond like Isaiah did.

Here I am, Lord, send me.

So there's a lot of passages that point to this.

The challenges, the modern practices don't always look like the ancient passages.

Acts talks a lot about being day to day with the believers.

And so they were gathering to the daily.

They were encouraging, is that possible in context of today's Western culture church?

I mean, we're barely not even getting weekly at this point.

When you look at, I had a church tell me the other week that even among their givers, their high-level givers, they're attending 0.8 times a month.

So even people who are giving regularly to this particular church, they can't even get once a month for them.

Like, how did we get here?

And is there a possibility and an option to turn the corner?

Well, I mean, culture changed.

So, and we're experiencing something that really nobody in history, except the very rich, have experienced in the past.

So, the very rich, that English, the Englishman, you know, my experience in a Downton Abbey moment where they, you know, the rich, the nobility sort of go off to their cottage up the mountain or something.

And people would go away for the weekend.

And that's a stunning thing.

Rich people did that.

So, you know, Jeff, when you were a kid, back those many decades ago.

Many, many.

Many, many.

People didn't go away for the weekend.

And your, you and your parents, in all likelihood, did not go because the whole infrastructure wasn't there to support it.

There wasn't a, you know, every, at every highway stop, there wasn't a courtyard or a, you know, a Holiday Inn or whatever, Hampton.

I mean, so think about how, or Hilton, think of all these names.

So, 50 years ago, none of those things, none of those things were available.

Therefore, the people didn't have the process to do it.

Now, they have the process to do so and they're taking advantage of it.

So, people go away for the weekend pretty regularly.

It's kind of a normal thing.

Yeah.

So, how then do we respond to that?

Well, I think one of the ways responding is, for example, we're actually, and it's a strange thing, but we're actually now taking like a children's ministry.

And we say, before we'd say, hey, would you teach children's ministry?

Now we're like, hey, would you and your friend rotate in the children's ministry?

So, there's two people to do one person's role.

So, I think we do want to sort of work towards where there's a sense that people value this.

I wish that more people not only valued it so much that they went to church when they were in town,

but they actually planned their time out of town around the valuable connection that the local church is there as well.

So, I mean, I think there's just, we have to call people to a different way of living.

And this is very countercultural because right now we live in a time when everybody does what is autonomously helpful to, you know, individually kind of driven by what they want to do.

And I think the call of God is something more.

Yeah.

Ed, are these idols to be preached against?

Like, is this something that we need to be directly addressing from the pulpit and just kind of engaging with people and saying, hey, listen, I face the same challenges, like as a minister of the gospel, like, but this is what scripture says.

This is where there is value in the coming together and community.

You know, I'm struggling with the answer.

I mean, it's a great question.

I would say that people getting away for the weekend is not necessarily idolatrous, but I would say that if you're driven by leisure to the place where you're not obeying the scripture, that that's problematic.

And the call of God is something different and better than that.

So, yeah, I think there are idolatrous parts to it.

I would just be careful, you know, to not call out the fact that you're going to see your parents for the weekend is idolatrous.

But I can certainly say that this leisure society that distances you from the people of God that you should be in relationship with, yes, I think there's idols that need to be preached about, called down, and addressed in my own heart, too.

Yeah, because there's something to comparison culture that we're living in the midst of where not only are we seeing this on a regular basis from some of our friends, but then we're inundated with it on a regular basis when I look at my phone.

So now I've got a social feed of nothing but people who seem to live on vacation convincing me that I, too, need to live on vacation, that I am not truly living life unless I am living on vacation.

And then, of course, then there's advertisements and everything else that come along with it to convince me of the same thing.

Yeah, and there is a multibillion-dollar industry that's working to get you to engage in these things.

It only works if we're going to these places.

And so when we don't, then ultimately there's a failure of the socioeconomic model.

So, yeah, so I would say one of the ways the church should be countercultural today is by specifically and intentionally helping and encouraging people towards greater biblical community where they're in each other's lives.

And in doing so, life on life, you know, iron sharpens iron, that, again, it's cliche almost, they're living life together, and there's priorities that are there.

I noticed that one time I was, there was this church in, we were in, we were in a different place where we live now, and there was this church, I guess we won't say a name, doesn't matter.

But there was a couple in the church that had, were thinking about moving, and I just had a conversation with them that said, well, but we've made an 18-month commitment to our small group to journey in life together, so we're not going to move until an 18-month commitment is done.

And I was like, that's not generally what I hear.

I mean, people are like, whatever, I'm going to take a new job, but they made a commitment of covenant, and they wanted to stick to it.

So I think that that kind of approach can be helpful, and I think we need more of it, and less of that consumer-driven Christianity.

It's funny, because even as you say that, both Jeff and I are kind of in awe as we hear that, because that's rare even within the church.

That's not just countercultural to our environments outside of the church.

If I were to go up at the pulpit and deliver that message, a lot of people would feel convicted and say, wow, I've never known such a strong commitment to,

or something like that, that's not my wife, or that's not my children.

Yeah, no, I agree.

And I think that's not dissimilar to maybe what that first-century church looked like.

They loved each other this much.

You know, I'm also doing research now on the Jesus People Movement, and man, people were very much like that in the Jesus People Movement.

And it seems that God uses that kind of time when people are in deep, deep relationship to really be at work in special and unique ways, and I love that.

How do you engage in that kind of vulnerability and even commitment when churches even?

We try to encourage small groups to break up and to start new groups and this kind of thing for the sake of getting more and more people connected.

Yeah, and that's a tricky thing, because we're sort of, most of us have open small groups where we want to multiply them.

And so, you know, what this church does is they do these 18-month commitments.

People come in and kind of go out.

And so I would say you're going to have to say to people to make that commitment that we want to be in some sort of biblical community,

maybe with people, the same people, but new people may be coming in and being part of that journey.

But the more you build towards that, the more that you, particularly that multiplying idea of small groups, which I love,

the more you build towards that, the sometimes you're working against the strength of that biblical community.

So that sometimes leads people to maybe a third place.

You know, I've got church, worship Sunday, weekend worship, and then I've got, you know, multiplying small groups.

And then we have kind of some sorts of community.

I think you can do it in multiplying small groups because, you know, most groups that multiply,

there's still a core of three or four families that may multiply, you know, singles, families, you know, blended families, older couples, whatever.

So they become the group that's in deep community, and then they multiply ultimately from there.

At the heart of multiplication, somebody's catching a vision that's larger maybe than what they realize.

On top of that, it's maybe even larger than what the church is.

I just was having a conversation before we got on this podcast.

I was talking to an online pastor where their church has developed a number of micro locations, smaller locations around.

But essentially, where they've started to reach into is juvenile detention centers.

Right.

And so they are, because of the passion of a couple individuals with their church to reach out into juvenile detention centers,

this church now has five of these micro locations where they are seeing, I think he said, two to three hundred juveniles,

you know, teenagers, 10 to 18, getting baptized over a couple years as a result of the church's ministry in this area.

The church didn't go in saying, hey, I want to create juvenile detention centers.

It was, there are a couple people who are passionate about it and work through the church to allow it to happen.

What's the role of the church to create?

And we talk about multiplication.

We talk about non-consumers.

We talk about being on mission.

Like, these are all phrases that we've said.

What's the church's role in empowering that to happen?

How do we get people to understand personal mission and how the church can support it, influence it, and benefit from it?

Yeah, great question.

Because I think that, you know, when we talk about people finding their mission, the verse that comes to mind is that Ephesians passage.

You know, that God has given apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers to equip God's people.

So, the role, most people listening or watching are in the category of pastor, teacher.

The role of that church leader and staff, I think, is primarily driven by the Ephesians passage.

As a matter of fact, if you were on my team, Jeff, I guess we've served together.

You weren't necessarily on my team.

I would actually not evaluate you annually.

Well, in your case, I would evaluate you daily.

But I would not evaluate you annually.

I mean, when I evaluated you annually, it would be on who have you equipped to, you know, we work together at Christ Fellowship.

You know, who have you raised up that's now part of the media ministry or something else?

So, with a few exceptions, and your job can be very technical, so that could be an exception.

But for almost all staff roles in a church, their primary evaluation would be built around how have you raised up others for roles and tasks in the life of the local church.

And if the answer is, I haven't, unless there's, you know, like, there might be some specific things.

You might be our trauma counselor, and that's not something we're going to pass on to just everybody.

So, then, your question is how?

And I think, ultimately, it's not really rocket science.

There are processes.

I mean, we can, you know, Rick Warren's baseball diamond, right?

So, how do we get to people where they, you know, 401 was discovering my mission?

And so, I think that involves helping them know their gifting, their wiring, their maybe past life experiences, all that point to what can and should we do with the gifts God has given us, as each one has received a special gift, 1 Peter 4.10.

Then, last part of your question is, I mean, that doesn't always benefit the church local.

It benefits the church global or church universal.

So, I often say that your gifts can lead you to minister in your church, through your church, or beyond your church.

So, in your church is, you're teaching small groups, you're working with the children, you're working in the media ministry, whatever else it may be.

That's in.

Through your church is, you know, your church has a partnership with this, you know, orphanage ministry, or it's maybe partnered with the good folks that you and I do work with, with Wellspring, you know, maybe their counseling alliance.

And so, you're partnering through your church.

It's a church-related thing.

And sometimes, it's just beyond your church.

Where, not in a sense that you've moved beyond, you're better than your church, but your church isn't involved in this, but you have a passion for orphan care, through and around this particular theme, in this particular place.

And your church, you know, and it's not a bad thing that your church isn't doing every ministry that's out there, but you're using your gifts.

So, in, through, or beyond are key things, all of which glorify the Lord, honor the Lord.

And when you're beyond, you still, obviously, you want to be connected through your local church, under its care and love, but in, through, and beyond are ways I think those gifts are used.

You know, what's funny is we started this conversation talking about the man on stage speaking, exuding his spiritual gift to the people in the room.

And that's how today I would suggest that the average church deems whether it's successful or not.

How many, you know, we talk about butts in seats and nickel and noses, we use that phrasing a lot.

But what you're just talking about isn't, like, the butts in the seats number, but how we're motivating those people to understand the personal mission and getting out, whether it benefits the church directly or indirectly the big C church.

Yeah, so, and it's, it's, it's tricky because you don't want to fall back on cliches, but if you're not measuring your seating capacity, you are measuring your sending capacity.

And so, I think that that's not just a cliche.

That's a really essential part of understanding the mission and the calling that God has on each and every person.

So, I heard you speak last year, 2019, Exponential.

I was in the room and-

Are you going to, like, go back to all of my past speaking engagements and say-

I am, man.

This was wrong.

Ed Stetzer has been hugely influential in my life.

Wow.

I love the fact that I can have this conversation with you.

That's so moving to me.

I appreciate that.

I love you, too.

And I'm disappointed you're not going to be at 2020.

I just was looking at the guest list last night, figuring out what's going on.

You're not going to be there.

Life goes on.

So, I saw you speak at Exponential 2019.

I was way up at the upper balcony of First Baptist Orlando.

And you heard, basically, you said this phrase.

You were like, I spoke 2018 here at conference, Exponential Conference.

I'm speaking again, 12 months later, 2019.

What's changed?

What has changed between 2018 to 2019?

2018, I said we had to do this.

The church has to change.

2019, I'm here again.

And I'm asking the question, did it actually change?

Or are we where we are?

Do you remember saying that?

I don't want to take you out of context.

Does that sound like you?

That basically kind of said we were going to, yeah.

No, I think one of the things that we talked about was, you know, everyone's like talking

about let's make a movement.

Let's do things differently.

Let's change the world.

And then I came back the next year and said, we're saying the same thing.

And it's like, you know, Francis Frank Chan's giving the same message.

And he's like, I just need more.

And there's Francis Chan doing that.

And Dave Ferguson's, you know, telling us we got to multiply.

And what I would say is, I mean, they're all, I mean, I don't disagree with any of it.

And, but there is a certain sense that I think that maybe it's, maybe it's just the speakers

of these events, but I'm growing frustrated in calling for this change that would lead to

a movement that everyone seems to amen.

But then we go back home to our churches and kind of revert to the same patterns.

And, you know, we can't revert to the same patterns.

We've got to engage all God's people in mission.

We've got to see multiplication become the norm, not the exception.

So, and I, and, you know, Dave and Francis, friends, all good.

Just pick those two because I have a good Francis Chan imitation.

But now I'm sure people got a really good, that's their imitation.

But so I wasn't, you know, mad or angry.

I'm just saying we can't keep having a cheerleader meeting every, every year.

And I'm for exponential, right?

I love what they're doing, but we can't keep having a cheerleader meeting every year.

And not move the ball down the field.

That's a sports metaphor, by the way.

I don't use those a lot, but we've got to move the ball down the field.

Now, to be fair, in 2019, there was some data released that actually said we have moved

the ball down the field some in multiplication.

But it's, you know, it's still not, it's not the kind of movement we want to see.

And I'm just desperate for a movement of God that's going to transform our communities

for the gospel and ultimately go around the world.

Yeah.

So, like, the follow-up to the question, and I love Expo as well.

And don't, totally not speaking.

Yeah, we love everybody.

Yeah, it's great.

Awesome.

Everybody, group hug.

Yeah.

How do we get the lead out?

Like, in some efforts, I feel like we're stuck.

Yeah.

We're actually seeing it declining in some areas.

And you've got some stats that say maybe we're moving there.

Maybe that's the catalyst to go.

But, like, church-wide, movement-wide, I think we're a big C church.

We're not making the changes we should, or at least it doesn't feel that way.

Yeah, I would say there are some exemplars and outliers.

And we would say we're seeing that here.

But, yeah, I think what you said is fair to say.

I mean, there is a huge cultural inertia towards a lower commitment in church and life.

There's a huge tendency that people have to that.

And what happens is when new people come to your church, they end up becoming like most

people come to your church.

So if, you know, 80% of your church is not engaged and involved, and 20% is doing 80%

of the work, you've all heard that principle before, what's the chance that a new person

is going to be engaged and involved?

Probably about 20% because they tend to be shaped and followed by the norm.

So I think if pastors would make the hard decisions, and maybe even the beginning church

planners would make the hard decision to not build a customer service,

consumer-driven ministry.

And again, I don't think most pastors are getting up in the morning saying, man, if I could just

be a consumer-driven ministry.

But they are saying, what can we do to better reach people?

And as they say that, they reach people.

And most people are Christians who are reached, and they come to our church because we maybe

ask the question, what can we do better to reach people?

So our church is better musically or better organizationally.

And so we attract people who are customers and consumers of the kind of worship we like

and the kind of ministries we provide.

And then we're like, shocked, shocked, Pearl Clutchin shocked that the church that we grew

actually has more customers than it does co-laborers in the gospel.

So I would say, and I'm not against growth, I'm not against big churches.

I'm for all that.

What I would say is we need to just make sure we don't end up with a room full of kind of

knowledgeable consumers of the religious goods and services that are distributed in the way

that they want and demand, or else they're going to go from our Walmart to somebody else's

target down the street.

Is there a need, Ed, because my father and I have been lamenting this as we've kind of seen the rise

of small groups and the need for small groups, but is there a need for Sunday school to kind of

make a re-emergence to help educate Christians as to how to evangelize, how to help bring somebody

else up alongside them?

Because there's a lot of that that I grew up in a Sunday school environment, Jeff did, you may have as

well, where that was just kind of the norm in terms of understanding some of those things.

And now, small groups, unintentionally, for the sake of community, but for the sake of,

hey, look, we're going to give you a DVD or we're going to give you right now media, you

hit play, you ask a few questions, and then you kind of roll.

Does it do the job of challenging people, or is there a place where we need just more education

on this front?

That's a good question.

If I had my preference, yes, I would love to see another time devoted to deeper study of

the Word of God, where celebration, worship, you know, care and community and

small groups and some sort of input of content that helps me be grounded in the Word of God,

like a Sunday school or something like that.

But the reality is, is most churches have moved away from that and people, churches have moved

away from that because people have moved away from that.

It's not, you know, one is related to the other.

And so I would say, if that's the case, it's not that they're asking us, it's not that we

get to choose or anything like that.

It's ultimately, at the end of the day, we're called to develop a people and there are certain

biblical teachings and commands we want to follow to do that.

One of them is they might learn the Word of God.

However, not however, in addition, there are structures and within which we work and cultures

within which we work.

So I'm a believer that you need a third time.

And so for me, it might be, you know, Bible study on Saturday morning.

It might be something else to go deeper because I think it's cost us a lot, maybe more than

we expected.

It's cost us a lot to move away from things like a Sunday school model, which again, it's

easy to mock because, you know, some of it was a little goofy, but I mean, there are millions

upon millions upon millions of people.

I didn't grow up in church like you did, but, and I'm so thankful you did.

But so many millions of people have been just transformed by the ongoing engagement, the

Word of God.

So I want a third time.

I do.

I want a third time beyond church and small group.

And I think that's key.

Is it Sunday morning?

I don't know.

If that will work, I'm for it.

I'm for anything where God's people will get more, more engaged in God's Word.

We've got so much that's that we've got so much content.

We're almost inundated with content nowadays in terms of Christian content.

Okay.

I actually think I'm a little different place than you are, Ray.

And that's okay.

Cause we love each other.

We're friends.

I think that the community is going to be mainly through the care groups, through the

cell groups, through the home groups, through the house groups.

So I'm talking about celebrative worship gathered together, talking about small groups,

meeting in homes.

And then I'm talking about what you call like a Sunday school, which is more content driven.

So I wouldn't have small groups in a church and an alternative small group expression in

Sunday school.

I think Sunday schools could be small groups, but then they're, they're also going to be

dealing with pastoral care and prayer and things of that sort.

I'm looking, I'm looking for one place for deeper discipleship, deeper Bible study as

well.

So I think what you're saying certainly could be true.

The third place could be community as well.

I tend to think that most of the community focus happens in what could be a two hour gathering

in a home where I'm only going to get people for an hour on Sunday before church.

And so I'd want that to be more, maybe even a large group or teaching, you know, large groups,

Bible study, that kind of stuff.

So maybe we may be in a little different place, but that's certainly okay.

I want to hone in a little bit because you said the word discipleship and that means a

hundred different things to a hundred different people.

So just paint for me because I'm curious and we talk a lot about discipleship in the, in

the podcast.

So like what, when you say discipleship in a discipleship group, contextually, what does

that look like?

What are you literally describing?

Okay.

Just so I'm not talking about small group, which I think, I think every church has a robust

community of small groups that are connected together.

Key for the church, pastoral care, Bible study, prayer for one another, and more.

And, you know, that's kind of become the norm.

You know, most churches sort of have that.

What I'm talking about is I think there needs to be a third time, a third place where, and

let me just say too, that, that discipleship is taking place in the worship service.

Discipleship is taking place in the small groups, raise rightful concern for a greater

sense of community.

That's going to take place.

And in my strange view, that's going to take place with the small group community.

But then part of the discipleship, so I wouldn't use that term.

These are not like the discipleship classes.

I think that's actually historically what some denominations did.

There was Sunday school, and then there was the discipleship program, which was some other

time.

So let's, let's jettison the structural ideas for the conversation.

I'm not saying jettison them if they're working, but jettison those kind of preconceived

notions.

So I'm talking about a place for celebration.

That's your weekend worship service.

Care, community.

That's your small group life throughout the church.

And content, someplace where you engage the word of God more deeply, maybe through biblical

teaching, maybe through a discipleship course that you're taking.

That is a deeper experience than biblically.

And the small groups are a deeper experience relationally.

And then the celebration is just kind of the gathered process of the church together.

And people might have different views.

And I, and I, this is not one, I don't think there's like second opinions.

chapter four, verse 11 says you should do this.

But, but, but I do think that to me, the thing that I'm missing in a lot of churches

is the thing that Ray brought up is where is that deeper place for community?

And what happens, I think is people who go to a church that's very celebrative on its

worship service simultaneously, that has good small groups that are community people in

that church office are say, well, where do I get the Bible deeper?

And then what happens is they come to the pastor and say, I just like some deeper teaching.

And then the pastor sees that as a threat and, you know, and then it's like, well, I'm

just, you know, we want to reach everybody.

No, give people a third place where they can take it deeper and know and love the Lord and

grow in knowledge of his word.

And I wouldn't do that as a replacement.

I would say that, man, as long as you're in worship and as long as you're in community,

man, we'd love to have you go with a deeper experience of the word of God.

Yeah, quite literally, I'm living that exact conversation with the church that I'm working

with down here where they've got, they've got people that are,

the services are very evangelical minded and the pastor's leading that way.

Small groups is reaching a type of people, but then there's, there's that next level person

that's trying to figure out how to be challenged.

They haven't understood the call of personal mission in their life.

They haven't understood at this point, we're on spiritual food and we should be feeding ourselves.

They're not looking for that, that challenging opponent.

They've not been reached.

They've just really been kind of trained within that community, but not grown to the place

of being a multiplier.

And so we've been trying to, to work through and figure out like, how do we, how do we grow

people?

How do we train people?

How do we help people understand the multiplication process that at this point, like we need to,

we need to feed you at that upper level, but to the point where now you can feed yourself

and then turn around as the Bible calls us to and start feeding others.

And so really that's, that's the, that's the call of personal mission in that, by the way,

and getting kind of ed to reaffirm you, I've, I've had several conversations and we're even

considering bringing back a, a Wednesday night thing and bringing that.

And that would, that would do that.

And I, we do see some churches, it's really surprising churches saying we need a third

time and it might go deeper with our kids as well.

And so, um, I, so I'd like that.

I, what I would say is I don't want to counter, you know, I think what happened was, um, you

know, the, the churches, you know, Wesleyan, somebody's a God, Baptist, whatever.

I mean, they had Sunday school, Sunday morning, something Sunday night.

And then usually a Bible study before Sunday night, that Wednesday night, they had like

a deacons or elders meeting on Tuesday and a women's fellowship meeting on Thursday and

a men's breakfast on Saturday.

And it just, it was the all consuming rally.

You couldn't meet your, you couldn't even know your unchurched neighbors because you're

busy driving past them to church.

So I think the pendulum swung.

I'd like to see it come back a little bit more.

And, uh, yeah, so I'm kind of an advocate for that, um, for that third, for that third

option, for that third option.

I think that third option, am I, am I, you know, I'm a pastor, so it's all C's celebration,

care, content.

Yeah.

I want that deeper biblical content.

I don't think the place for that is completely Sunday morning.

I, you know, I generally teach through books of the Bible.

Um, and so you're getting content there.

Not all these places have content, but this is the one where it's, you maybe you're memorizing

scripture, you know, my Donna, my wife just texted me.

She's off to her precept Bible study group.

So that's, I mean, the women right now in our church are exercising that as kind of that

third place for content.

Now I, I've, I've preached there.

So should I be like, well, Donna, didn't you get enough content from your husband on

Sunday morning?

And the answer she would say is that's the most amazing content ever.

However, a lesser content to be received can be received on whatever day this recording

this is on.

So yeah, so I do think that and, and I like, I like the, and so like one of the reasons

the gospel project, you know, we've seen it go from, you know, five years ago we started

went from zero users to 1.7 million weekly users of a gospel project resource in their

hand on a Sunday is because it's become a third place for some people.

Like people use small groups on, on Wednesday and it's, they're, we're putting the cookies

a little higher on the shelf.

Let's go a little deeper into the, the Bible.

And I think that has good, that produces good, strong believers.

What do you think of structures that churches would leverage for that third place that are

outside, almost parachurch?

Like I'm thinking of BSF, Bible study fellowship.

Yeah.

That give people that deeper access to content.

But at the same time, don't cost the church more resources.

Yeah, no, that's a good question.

I think actually I said, Donna was doing precept, but maybe a Bible study fellowship.

I should know more, shouldn't I?

I just know she loves Jesus.

She goes to a Bible study today.

But I don't, I don't have a difficulty with being outside of the church.

I think that most churches may be too small to be able to sustain that kind of thing.

But what happens is like, you know, sometimes it requires, you know, BSF is, is a men and

women, right?

BSF is men and women, I think.

Well, it's, there's a men's section.

There's a women's section.

They do their Bible study separately.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

How about that?

Okay.

So what I would say is, I think it would be good if churches also saw the value for

that content, but I'm for any place where people are studying the Bible in an orthodox

way more rather than less.

So I'm, I think that's great.

I sat with you once in, in Pastor Rick's office at Christ Fails for Miami, we were casually

talking about, and you used the, used the phrase, and we talked about the, it's Romans

or Hebrews, forgive me, I'm blanking on it, but the, don't abandon the gathering together.

Hebrews, chapter 10, verse 25.

Hebrews 10:25

Thank you.

And so what I would love to hear, cause I know you're not, and you've been public about this

and so in a context as online pastor, Tom, we were having the conversation and you said

the phrase and it's, it's stuck with me.

It's, um, uh, and that doesn't include avatars.

And so what I would love to hear, cause I know you're not, and you've been public about

this with some of your writing, uh, and in conversations with me, and I'm, I'm an online

pastor, digital guy, live in that world.

You perceive challenges and issues in context of what, um, uh, of a church online, a digital

church, things like this.

And, and, and I respect you respect that entirely, but I would love just being a guy who sees

ministry happening in those areas.

What are some of the challenges that you're seeing?

What are some of the issues when you look at the digital scope, when you look at church

online, I see an opportunity to connect with somebody seven days a week.

Actually, that leans closer to a biblical model of church.

You see some things that's at a different viewpoint.

And I would love to you maybe to speak to our audience.

Our audience has leadership that sees the digital world like you.

So how can we, what are the issues we need to speak to?

So wrongly sees it like me.

So wrongly.

Um, and cause I know, I, I think, I think I even remember that there in that conversation,

there was, um, actually some push back and forth with you and me.

Um, and I think that's good.

So, so let me say first, you want to talk about the concerns, but I want to say first,

let me talk about the areas that I want to affirm.

Um, I think that, that online church is a great opportunity for people to engage in community

and can really be a tool to use what you talked about, that greater sense of community day

by day.

Uh, cause far people, far more people are engaging in Facebook.

And if you have a robust community there, or, you know, sometimes even an internal church

community, like, um, you know, church community builder, or maybe there's resources you particularly

recommend where you've got, you know, chat rooms and online conversation.

And yeah, so I, I actually think that in 2020, if you have the resources to do so, you'd be

pretty like irresponsible not to engage in a, and you're in larger churches and have more

resources than this, in a robust online engagement that, that really creates community that can

be seven days a week.

So, so I don't want the, I think my concerns would be when it does encourage people to not

be in church.

Now, what we found is by and large is it actually doesn't do that.

So there, as a whole, there are some people who does do it too, I'm sure.

Uh, and there's some people who can never go to church.

I mean, so I know we'll get notes from someone who's homebound or whatever it may be and praise

God for that.

So, so one concern I would have is that person who, um, sort of is moving away from community

and sees online church as a replacement of that.

And I, I don't think that electrons and avatars should replace, replace feet and faces as the

primary way that people interact with one another.

And let me just say that we are now 10 years into online church and I don't think it has.

Um, so one of the things you, when you were running our online church kind of world, you

did encourage people to come to be a part of the community.

Now, again, are there places and spaces where that's not possible?

Yes.

Here's the deal.

We may be, depending on when you release this podcast, we may be in the middle of a global

pandemic.

Uh, my daughter was one of the first four people in Tennessee.

They were at a youth camp in Georgia where some kid from Florida had swine flu.

So they all came back from the youth camp with this flood of swine flu, including my daughter.

And the church that had the camp, it's called Long Hollow.

You have friends who are on staff there now.

Uh, but they, we shut down church.

So we said, nope, do not come.

Don't come.

You guys, we got to stop the spread.

Now it didn't work, uh, ironically.

And everyone in, you know, would eventually get swine flu, but it, but it's mortality rate

greatly was less than the first reports, which is good.

But so we're, we may be the place where the only way we're having this kind of community

is online church.

So, so again, so many positive things that, but at the same time, part of my challenge is

I live in a world where I go to a conference and everybody is just a hundred percent in

favor of every single new idea.

And it's just, this is the great, you know, I write in outreach magazine and outreach magazine

is a wonderful magazine.

You should get it, subscribe to it, but everything's a great new idea in outreach magazine and everything's

a great new idea at exponential and everything's a great.

And, and what I would say is I'm not sitting around saying, well, let me tell you, I'm up

on the balcony of the Muppets and I got some thoughts I want to say.

Um, but what I, what I do want people to hear is there are unintended side effects.

And if online church moves people out of community, then it's not helping.

It's actually hurting.

Do we have a lot of evidence that's done that?

No.

Would I, for example, uh, a mutual friend of ours did the first online baptism and would

I encourage widespread online baptisms?

No, I want people to get together in their community.

Now you could say, if I were your shoes, I would say that, you know, they, the people literally

watched the baptism.

The first online baptism was, I believe in Pensacola and it broadcast from South Florida.

Um, it was one person at a home, but they broadcast it in front of the church.

So it is certainly the public profession, but I just want people to, to the degree they can

to work against sometimes the trends and to say, we want personal community as much as

we can have it.

And then online church becomes a tool that even enhances that and, you know, provides for

times we can't be together and more.

So how far the divide, how far apart are we, Jeffrey?

You know, I would look at, I would look at online community.

I would look at church online and I would say that if an attender is only exhibiting their

Christian traits, if they're only exuding the fruits of the spirit in the virtual relationship

they have, and that is not getting into the physical world, then they're a consumer.

They are the same type of person that's sitting that one hour on Sunday in the building and

not living on personal mission for Christ throughout the week.

And so that, that's, that's the philosophy.

And we talk a lot about it in church online circles about the online to offline, where the

gospel that we learn in the off, in the online world virtually affects our offline, our physical

world relationships.

And so the challenge of church online is not to, um, broadcast the services and be a replacement

for a physical church.

I would suggest that the challenge really of church online is to distribute discipleship and

empower people to be the church where they are physically and to start to exude some of those

things in a physical realm.

The problem is, is that the vision of what church online can be is lost at the same level

and forgive me for overstating, but where the average church today doesn't understand a

lot of the things that we talked about.

They don't understand your three C's.

They don't understand multiplication.

Uh, what they understand is we got to get as many people in here on Sunday because we're

defining the success of our church off the butts in the seats and the nickels in the noses

and not off of, Ed, it's the, one of my favorite things you've said today, this idea of a

successfulness of a church is its ability to have people multiply themselves.

Um, and so that actually is the exact same line that I would look at with church online.

The problem is, is that the average church in America doesn't have that vision, much less

for church online.

They don't even have it for themselves.

Right.

And so there's an opportunity, you know, the more that I talk about church online, the

more that I just ended up talking about church because the culture that's being propagated

out of the church, well, church online is just a mirror of it.

It's, it's a force magnifier, uh, towards that.

And so we have an opportunity, I think, to change culture that not only is going to help

the church online, but it's going to help the physical church as well.

I, I, I, I don't think there's a lot of daylight between us.

Um, cause I, what I would say is if I, if I were to be having a conversation with Joe church

member or, you know, Joe pastor, whatever.

Um, what I would say is what Jeffrey's talking about, you need all in all on all over your

church because that's where people are.

And that's the means of communication they're needing.

I mean, we used to have telephone prayer chains.

I mean, I don't know how old you have to be to know, Ray, do you remember telephone prayer

trains?

Totally do.

Yeah.

I don't know how old you got to be to remember that.

So, so, and imagine, you know, how bad it is too, cause you call somebody, it's like,

it's literally like that bad game of telephone where you call somebody and by the time it's

done, you know, so-and-so has grown a third.

Arm and it's the craziest thing.

Yep.

Everyone has cancer.

That's exactly, exactly.

So, um, so I think we're, so, so count Ed Stetzer among the people who say what Jeffrey's

talking about is, is right, important.

And, uh, and, and, and as you described it there just fits very similar.

So I'm far more pro, but in everything I'd like to acknowledge that the breathless embrace

of every new idea doesn't always think through what could be the negative consequences of it.

And I think I started saying that during the seeker movement in the, in the nineties.

And, you know, I guess that gave me a reputation for just saying, Hey, let's think about this.

Cause again, but I'm pro this, like, so in the mid nineties, you know, I'm wearing a Hawaiian shirt,

you know, I'm walking around, I want to be Rick Warren Jr.

And so I'm all in, but I'm like, Hey, there are some consequences.

I might not, yeah, I lived in Erie, Pennsylvania, planting a church.

Maybe an Hawaiian shirt isn't the answer to gospel work in Erie, Pennsylvania.

But, you know, I think we have to ask those questions.

So let's have concerns, but let's also seize the opportunity that online, online community provides for us.

I actually don't see, I don't see any, any separation between what either of you were saying.

And maybe it's because, you know, both of you are so engaged and far along off in the process.

And like you said, that it's been 10 years.

So now we've had opportunity to evaluate and take a look and, and kind of consider.

And it's, you know, it's what, it's what you were talking about, where our people are both in physical environments and in digital environments.

Digital is a great opportunity to engage them and to show them more spiritual content, but even create that kind of community and foster that community.

And Jeff, you're a hundred percent right that we could be creating consumers just as well in digital environments as we do in physical environments.

And that's something that churches in general, like Jeff, you and I have discussed this before, like our strategy online and in-person needs to be the same.

And we have to make sure and emphasize that, whether it's consistently or on an ongoing basis with our people, just in terms of, hey, look, whether it's two or three environments, you should be taking part in all of these things.

And then, Ed, to your point, and we've seen this, small groups, even if they take place online, are enhanced even more by meeting in physical spaces.

They really are.

And, you know, Jeff's mom leads a small group with, with people who are separated by time zones.

Two small groups, two small groups, two small groups.

That's right.

And, and, you know, her relationship was enhanced even more.

She and her husband were on vacation in Puerto Rico and went to go stay at one, one of the women that are in her small group.

They went to go stay at her house and they had to know their husband and spent time with her.

That's only growing and building that community.

And if I were to ask Linda, hey, look, this physical, you know, this physical meetups enhance your online relationship, she would say a hundred percent.

Yes.

Yeah, no, that's good.

That's good.

So, so press on in good deeds and don't be, don't feel like Ed Stetser's back there saying, I got some concerns, you kids.

I just, again, I'm, I guess, you know, I'm a professor.

I'm supposed to ask those questions.

And so, and I think that sharpens us too.

I think that some of the people who may be criticized, I used the example earlier of the seeker movement in the nineties.

I mean, I learned from, and I'm like, yeah, you know, that is kind of a valid criticism, but don't miss on all the amazing, I mean, people are coming to Jesus and, and I think people are engaged in the culture.

So don't miss all of that.

But yeah, there's some things we need to think about and be careful about too.

Awesome.

Well, Hey, uh, we're, we're going to land the plane and I, I really appreciate your time.

I know you're very busy with doing life, the things that you are.

Um, and man, I have loved having you on this podcast and even just spending more time with you.

You're going to be speaking down here in Miami, April 2nd, um, with, uh, with Wellspring Counseling Center doing a, uh, a thing where Wellspring is, is literally addressing a lot of the stigma centered around mental health.

And so in Miami, we're going to be over at a Wayside Baptist church.

You can go to wellspringmiami.org for more information on that.

And so Wellspring is just, I mean, it's whole, there's all kinds of like centers and people working all over South Florida.

So if you're in any place and you just want to make it down for the gathering, it would be worth your time.

And what's the webpage they'd find that?

Yeah, it's wellspringmiami.org.

We're going to be broadcasting it online.

So if you hit me up on Deerfeg or follow, uh, Wellspring Miami on social media, you can find more information there.

And, uh, I get to hang out with, with my friend Ed and produce another event.

Small tip on Ed.

Um, when he's on stage, he normally has an iPad with him that he has all his notes in, but he's also texting the production director when anything goes wrong in the room to make sure that he knows that Ed knows that something went wrong in the room.

So, uh, I know sometimes I might text and say, Hey, do we have that verse wrong or the lights burn?

I don't even know.

I don't know what I've texted about.

What, what, what, what it's next about?

Oh, it's been awesome.

My favorite one was, um, uh, I was, I was camera directing and Ed, Ed texted me.

He's, he's like, you forgot to start the clock that would let Ed know how long he had to.

Oh, that's true.

Yeah.

It's like, you forgot to start, start the clock.

And I said, I texted him back while camera directing.

No, I didn't.

It's running fine.

And he's like, no, really, it's not working.

And I leaned over to the guy and I was like, did you remember to start the clock?

Literally sitting next to me.

Did you remember to start the clock?

And the guy's like, oh crap, I forgot.

And he pressed it.

So like, Ed is just constantly engaging in this stuff and it is so, it is, I don't, they'll

also make it sound like I wrote a sentence.

I think I probably wrote clock.

Clock.

And then you're like, it's working fine.

And I said, no, no, it's not like, yes, I was, I was doing a sermon at that time, but

it wasn't like, dear Jeff, I'd like to point out to you that the chronometer that is appropriate

completion time for my sermon.

Anyway, you get the point.

I thought you were going to start live tweeting now, live tweeting while you're preaching.

Like, that's like the next level.

Oh my goodness.

That's awesome.

Well, hey, Ed, thank you for jumping on the podcast for Ray, for Ed, this is Jeff with the

Church Digital.

Thanks for jumping on this one and we'll see you next time on the podcast.

Y'all have a good day.