EP065: Fellowshipping Digitally, or Biblical Functions of a Digital Church, Part 2

Episode 65 of the Church Digital Podcast, powered by Stadia Church Planting. One of my favorite

podcasts this year was actually part of a three-part podcast series called The Biblical

Functions of a Digital-Only Church. And so pre-COVID, pre-coronavirus, before every church

in America was essentially a digital-only church, we were having a conversation with a lot of online

pastors, several, four or five online pastors, talking about what a digital-only church model

would be. And so episode 50 was that introductory episode where we took a book, Larry Walkermeyer,

Todd Wilson's, The Multiplication Flywheel, and talked about it. The biblical functions of church

as referenced in Acts, as referenced in the Bible, and talked about how these things could be executed

in a virtual, in a digital-only space, where it did not require a physical footprint,

it would only require digital virtual services. Can we do it? You know, it's interesting. We talked

about worship, we talked about teaching, we talked about giving, we talked about some of those easy

ones, what I would call easy ones, in the first episode, and that's episode 50. In this episode,

in episode, well, we're now 65, man, we really started digging into what I thought was going to be a

slam dunk easy one, but we ended up parking on it for a long time. What does fellowship look like in a

digital-only church? Now, what's interesting is the reality of where we are today in church, like,

we are understanding what church looks like. And we're actually feeling the tension because while

the physical church is out there creating all of this content, and we are content beasts at this

point, as churches are getting on five, six, seven times a week, multiple times a day, between

devotionals and sermons and devotional thoughts, sermonettes, all this content worship sets being

generated online, what we're really seeing is that while this content is effective, what we're missing in

this coronavirus season is really communication. It's relationships. It's engaging with people

in a digital way, because there is no other way for us to communicate. And so what does it look like

to fellowship? What you're going to listen to is a conversation that happened way back in probably

February, before the whole COVID thing exploded. This was before even the exponential conference.

We referenced it in the podcast before the exponential conference, early March. And so you're here in

language of what does it look like? And really, the themes that we're talking about are as relevant

today to every church across America, because we're all digital at this point. And we all need to figure

out how to create fellowship digitally, because there is no other way right now other than digitally.

So here we are, episode 65 of the Church Digital Podcast, part two of the conversation of biblical

functions of a digital church. We're bringing into the conversation Jason Morris, Global Innovations

Pastor, Westside Family. Joey Santos, Christ Church, online pastor there. Ian Kirk, Generations Community

Church, is an online pastor. We're bringing in somebody new, Jay Earhart, who is a video game church,

digital church, developing it into a church in a church planning system, Jade Earhart with Love

Clan, and myself, Jeff, with the Church Digital. In an episode that we're just simply calling,

as I said, Biblical Functions of a Digital Church, part two. Parentheses of three, episode three is

coming soon. But right now, part two. Here y'all go.

I interviewed Ed Stetzer on the podcast yesterday, and I was like, nothing's changed. Nothing ever

changes. Ed, what do we have to do to actually, like, change? We know, we know we need to change. We know

the stats are bad, but nothing, like, there's no catalyst. We say, yes, we need to change. We're at

fault. We need to, but we never actually, like, get there. The Big C Church never, never turns the corner.

So anyway, awesome. Hey, I'm excited about the podcast. So Ray bolted on us. God bless him.

Sorry. I appreciate you for giving up a Saturday for doing this. And, you know, and I want to thank

Jade for jumping into filling in some of the holes here a little bit on the podcast. So just to kind

of lay the groundwork and remind, by the way, the new, the podcast, the first interview that we did

for, like, parts one through four or whatever, like, that's out now. It actually did very well. I mean,

I'm not, I'm not surprised. Digital Church is so novel of a concept at this point. I think I'm

getting a lot of traffic just because people are like, ooh, something new. I don't know if they're

for or against. I haven't gotten much hate mail on it. But it's, it's a thing. Not as much as like, you know,

Yeah, not as much as Jade's, uh, Jade's podcast. Um, man, that, that, that's still shooting. I still get

entirely like a lot of, uh, listens. Jade, you're quickly becoming one of the top five off that one,

by the way. And it's probably like, but it's a bunch of people who, it works out. I get hate mail.

Do you pass that along to your guests? I mean, if I got hate, I mean, if you got hate mail on some

of my podcasts, I would want to know. So I can at least respond or something.

No, I get the, I get the hate mail. They, they come, they come to me. They go find me and they

give me the hate mail. And now you, you, the thing you said, you're dumb, big, dumb, stupid.

I'm just asking questions here. You can't fault me for asking questions. It's not my fault. This

guy wants to launch a digital church, reaching video gamers for Christ. What are you thinking?

He's in there prodding. Hey, say something. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks, Jimmy Fallon.

I got to tell you, it's the first time in my life I've been confused for Jimmy Fallon. I kind of like it. It's got a nice feel to it.

Yeah. It's the face. That's exactly what I was going to say.

I couldn't. Okay.

It's like I'm looking at Jimmy Fallon. Yeah.

So remember in context of this, now there's church online, but it's broadcasting the church services online.

And that's physical church ministry. That's happening in virtual or digital spaces.

I really, maybe we can use examples of that, but the, really the core of what I want this conversation,

isn't physical church doing virtual ministry. It's something more in line of what Jade's doing with

the video game stuff, where it's holistically aimed at virtual first that may roll into physical.

So questions like, um, biblically can a church do, and this will probably be the opening question.

Um, what does fellowship look like? What does disciple making look like? What does compassion look like?

Justice. Um, what are these things look like in a, um, in a biblical, from a biblical context in a

digital only or digital first expression of church? Uh, because the exercise we're wrestling with is not,

can it be physical? We know it can be physical, but can a digital church kind of meet that expectation

that the Bible puts forth? Um, and a couple of these, I'm like, I really don't know how that's

going to work. So this might be an interesting conversation. It'll be interesting. See where

we get the last, the last podcast was easy compared to this one, I think. So thanks y'all for coming back.

Any questions on anything else before we, uh, before we get started?

Uh, I do have one question. Cause, uh, I think when you say church, you're not talking about a church

service. You're talking about all of the facets of church, right? Correct. Okay. So let, let me,

let me define that. Um, with a digital church, what, what I'm suggesting is we wipe the slate clean of

expectations and go back to the biblical mandate and as building blocks and then build a model of church.

Um, you know, last time we talked about 20 minutes of war of worship, you know, is, is that, is that

effective? Is that the only way of biblical worship is musical worship? The only way Bible talks about

other things. We talked about the message is the 40 minute sermon, the most effective, do we even need

a sermon? Is there even what could teaching look like? You say, oh yeah, we can go back to like

Paul does and write. And then like everyone's in whoever listened to the podcast heads explode,

but nobody since Jason, you know, hate mail because Jason's, you know, not 26 or 27.

How old are you, Shane?

Whatever. Old enough. I just hope you're old enough nowadays.

Like whatever, whatever you say.

You know, it's, it's like Jason says something entirely controversial and the fact that he's

like bald with a goatee and kids, everybody says, that's awesome.

Jade Earhart says something borderline controversial.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, but it's a podcast.

They can't, they can't even see what he says it.

Oh, they know.

They can't even see him.

Well, they know I could be, I just have a young voice.

Like, that's awesome.

Does that answer that question?

Um, yeah, it does because there was a couple of moments in the last podcast where I was a little

confused as to what we were referring to. And what I like what you're doing is basically

the church service for millennia has been used as the primary tool to get the church work done.

And what you're doing is you're dissecting it and you're saying, okay, what was used before

as a church tool to do church work, the service, we're going to take pieces of that out and we're

going to see if those pieces can be done digitally. Am I, am I following you correctly?

You are right on it.

Whether that means that it ends up looking like a church service or not, it doesn't even matter.

If we are accomplishing the functions of a church, not a church service, of a church, then who cares?

Well, I think it's also about, uh, because of the, how the currently is set up is for the church,

the physical church is without the weekend service, nothing else exists. The church doesn't exist.

Right. So if, if, if, well, it shouldn't be that way.

Exactly. Correct.

But they structure this way. Well, like if, if the, the, the weekend service doesn't happen,

church doesn't exist and how it's currently set up. Right.

Right. Right.

You know, I was, I was talking with DJ Soto a while back and, uh, and he, and he used this phrase. I was

talking about, you know, how Stadia, how the church digital, how I can help them, you know, with,

with doing some digital church, um, and trying to figure out how to reproduce guys like him,

guys like Jade, who are, who are doing this. And, and, and this is, this is what DJ's line was. And,

and I love this. Um, it's, it's time for us to, to stop recreating church in the virtual space,

recreating physical church in the virtual space. And it's time for us to reinvent church for the,

for the virtual space. It's not, it's not, I want to copy this thing. I want to shove this square peg

into a round hole. It's more of, okay, let's go back to the drawing board. You know, let's,

let's look at it and figure it out. And now let's recreate it for, for virtual held to the biblical

standard, but looking different for virtual now. And there's, there's pros and there's cons for this.

I just did a interview, uh, with Ed Stetzer. We rolled it out last week. Ed is not a fan of digital

church. Ed is not a fan of church online. And even, and Ed's, Ed's a fan of Jeff Reed. And I have,

I have a great longstanding relationship with the guy and he was very gracious on the podcast. But,

but even in context of some of the stuff that, that we're talking about now, like it was funny,

Ed even drew the analogy and I totally wouldn't do it, but he drew the analogy to the two Muppets that

are up in like the upper balcony. You know, the, the old guys who are like to get off my lawn type

guys, you know, that's how Ed painted himself that picture. That wasn't me. That was Ed, but he painted

that picture up and there are people like that. The, Hey, before we go radically making changes,

we need to consider all fronts. And to that end, Ed, I agree with you. And that, that's part of what

this conversation is, is as we're starting to, um, question new ways to do church, evaluating how a

digital only expression of church is, let's start dialoguing conversations like this. Let's start

pouring into scripture, finding ways to either agree with the path that we're on, or maybe even to say,

Hey, you know what, this is, we're not going to make it because of this right here.

Um, I don't know that I found the thing that's like that we got to stop yet, but I'm definitely

open to those conversations as we're rolling through this podcast, as well as other conversations,

wrestling with the ecclesiology of a digital church. Um, and thank you, Ed. I love you. You

know that we're, we're, we're good. Todd Wilson. When we talked like it, same thing. It's like,

I don't think I like digital exclusive church. That's different than what you were talking about

earlier. And now I'm not sure if I like, it was the same type of thing. And I mean, once we started

going through all these things and specifically even what you're doing here with all of the,

the list of things. And I, I mean, the reason I brought up, I brought up this book, right? The,

the activating the flywheel, um, or what, I don't know exactly what he uses. He uses the word

activating the flywheel, but it's mobilization of the flywheel. So yeah, the book is actually the

mobilization flywheel. Yeah. Okay. So, but in, but I was, that's what I was using to,

to start the discussion. It's like, look, look at these things. This is the why, right? We're not

putting any what's to these things. This is why we're doing this. Why church exists for these things

that you've specifically mentioned. So are they possible to do in an exclusively online space or not?

You know? And, um, and he was open to that because it's like the terminology that he's

heard before that he understands. And so for a lot of this stuff, it's like breaking down,

uh, the why of why something is. And when I, I just finished the huge study through acts,

right? Uh, six, seven months, like we did one once a week, one chapter. And as I went through it,

I'm really thinking about it specifically about, uh, an exclusively online church.

It really does come down to just the why. And that, that's like almost all of acts, every chapter,

you can see how they're, they're getting into the why of church and the why of everything that

they're doing. Even like when they're cleaning tables and they're like, why are we doing this?

Like we should be out discipling. You know what I mean? And they're like, oh,

because it needs to happen. You know, we're not saying it doesn't need to happen. It's just a what

thing. And here's, here's what we need to do instead. And it's just how, that's how most of church

today feels is like, get back to that. Why? And then focus on what after you'd know exactly why

you want to do it in the first place. So. Yeah. If we could get the entire BC's big C church to

figure out their, why to go back to ask that question, we, the church would be in a far better

spot. And so a lot of that, and it's just really the reason why, you know, as Stadia started talking

to me about, Hey, let's create a, a digital church model. Like to me, the ecclesiology that the

biblical functions, this it's, it's first in, in, in, in paramount. It's, it's the most important

thing. Like, let's not do something that that's off axis. And if we are off axis, man, let's God,

I'm sorry. Like, you know, let's, let's stop that sooner than later and let's not drag people down a

road. They, they shouldn't go down. So let's go ahead and do this. Let's, let's, let's get started

through here. Um, we're continuing on the conversation we did last time with, um, uh,

most of this panel, plus or minus, um, Radio Armis and Jade swapping in, going through the

mobilization flywheel. Now this is a PDF that's created by, uh, Larry Walkenmeyer, Todd Wilson,

hundred page, you know, ebook, pretty, pretty solid here. Uh, exponential conference leadership

network, both, both put this out. Uh, but what I love, and by the way, they're speaking on this

at expo, actually expo will have already happened. So I will edit that entire reference out because

no one will get that or be able to execute on that. They can buy the digital pass.

Maybe. Yeah. You can maybe do the digital pass. So that, that's a thing we, we, okay. So we'll

put the link to the show notes. So here's the funny thing where you just said is that, I don't know

if you realized it, but you were talking about editing what you were saying because they couldn't

attend an event, but the digital pass they could do. I think you're kind of embodying the very

conversation we're having. Yeah. That's a good point. Had I known there was a digital pass,

I would have tied that in to get it out of ignorance. I did not know. Therefore, I don't

feel bad. Uh, but I wasn't taking a judgment as much as highlighting my ignorance. So I'll go ahead

and keep all this in. Cause that'll be great. Um, all right. Digital church, here we go. Here's what

we did. Here's what we covered last time. We covered a worship, teaching prayer, uh, in sacraments,

uh, the communion, the baptism, things like that. And so you can go, I don't want to rehash that

because we got a lot to cover. Episode 50 covers a lot of that on the podcast, but let's go ahead.

And I'm going to go in their order here. Um, so number five out of call it 11, number five is

fellowship. So the question is in a digital only expression of worship, what would fellowship look

like? Now fellowship, we're immediately thanking physical church and the gathering together Sunday

services, whatever that may be fellowship within small group community. In the converse, in context

of this, it's digital only, but let's utilize our knowledge of digital tools to be inventive. I'm not

necessarily driving for any specific model or something as much as asking the question, how

can one fellowship in the biblical context of what fellowship means here, um, through a digital

church, utilizing digital tools. What do y'all think?

Well, the easiest one of course is Facebook. I, you know, we look at our certain digital expression

at our church and our prayer page is actually the most active thing we have. And people are interacting

and praying for each other constantly. And yeah, you know, it's not as if digital fellowship is a new,

I mean, I'm sadly old enough to remember BBS and the Bolton board systems and fellowship happening there.

Honestly, fellowship is the easiest digitally. I think of almost any of it.

That's really interesting. Cause I agree with you and in the whole BBS thing, man, that you just,

you just struck a chord in my heart. Like I remember those days, like, like the, the, uh,

well, the, the 2,400 bod modem, like, uh, you know, before AOL was AOL when it was purely dialing

into some guy's system. And then you'd get the call waiting call to click in and screw up the,

or it was even before call waiting where it was just like busy for hours on end. Cause you're,

you know, downloading some game or talking to some guy in like Istanbul or whatever. Yeah,

I can, I can feel that. Um, but, but here's the thing, like, it's, it's funny where probably the

largest criticism we have, and I'll just take Ed, um, Ed's, Ed's thing of, you know, the,

the Hebrews 10, 25, 28, somewhere in there. Do not, uh, uh, do not abandon the gathering of meeting

together. Some as they are in the habit of doing, uh, you know, Ed's, Ed's famous line,

at least famous to me, uh, this does not include electrons and avatars, you know,

gathering together does not include that. So, uh, which is awesome. And I'm, I'm actually impressed

that he utilized avatars in the right concept, uh, context right there. It was awesome.

But what does that mean for us? Like, like how do we, how does, how does, how does community work?

How does fellowship work virtually that maybe somebody like Ed or maybe outsiders aren't

understanding? Yeah, I would get to kind of the, again, I'm going to, I'm going to say this for

pretty much the whole thing. I like what, why, why fellowship, if you know why you're doing it,

then you can look at what fills that role. Same thing with, with any of these things. Like what,

why is that an important thing? Um, because even if you look at some of the,

like what happens with Pharisees, um, is that they'll, they'll take something that was given

for their benefit. It's something that was given to, to be a benefit to them. And then they,

they do it legalistically just for the purpose of fulfilling the law

and not really thinking about why something is what it is. And, um,

that, that, that is, that scene, that scene throughout, um, the new Testament. And there's

always this, uh, well, why, why are you not supposed to, to eat these things, you know? Um, and, and this

was no, you're, you're, you're looking at this the wrong way. And that, that happens throughout

new Testament as, as Jesus is, uh, really deconstructing what they already know. Um,

and, and, and asking if they've, if they've really thought about those things. So for fellowship,

like acts two 42, uh, they continually devoting themselves to the apostles teaching and fellowship,

uh, to the breaking of bread and prayer and Matthew 18 to, uh, 20, uh, for where two or three are gathered

in my name. Therefore, uh, I'm among them. So what is that? What does that look like, um, for us to gather?

Yeah. Is it, is it gathering the physical location? Um, if it's saying that they're devoting themselves

to the apostles teaching and to fellowship and Jesus is saying that where two or three are gathered in my

name there, I'm among them. Uh, you know, that there, there get, it gets a little hairy, but you,

you really have to wonder, um, what people are thinking if they say that you can't do this online,

you can't gather online because that's what I get is people, I mean, people use these same verses for

why you cannot do online. You have to, you have to realize what people are saying when they say that,

um, the why, the why behind that, um, what some of the stuff Jason was talking about last week,

where it's like when people have, have challenges, uh, and I think Ian, you were talking about it.

We're talking about it with the, with the communion, the people who are like mailing out the communion

and it's okay. It's okay to do communion long distance, as long as the pastor or the church is

the one who's doing the postmark to mail it the appropriate and it's touched. The pastor's touching

it as it goes in the box, like it, which is crazy. Like, okay. Well, I'm crazy. Maybe it's not crazy.

It's unique. Um, but in, in our context, like there would the, the, there are people who would say,

yeah, they're currently six people gathered on zoom, having a conversation about God, um, and, and

trying to do what's best for the church. But God, the Holy Spirit, uh, per Matthew, uh, you know,

Jake's reference, God is not among them because they are not breathing the same air molecules.

They're not in a physical space and God doesn't, doesn't work in this. And so even, you know,

in those situations, you know, drilling in to rehash some of this, Jason was talking about, um,

to get to the specificity of what don't you agree with? Like where, where is the exact challenge of it?

I think that's, that's a great line. What's the most unique place where we've seen it? Cause

fellowships is the easy one. I think really of, of this list, what's the most unique way that we're

seeing fellowship expand? What's something that surprised you, uh, cutting edge, new idea, new

concept, who's doing something new? Oh, I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to like, but I have to,

like what you, when you were talking about DJ Soto, like, I mean, there you go. Like,

I love what he's doing and I'm in his discord a lot. Just, uh, seeing, looking at what's going on.

And I, I joined him for, uh, um, one of the, he had a small group basically. Um, and they were,

they were doing it in VR chat. So, you know, I walked up as my VR avatar, uh, to the robot that was

teaching that night, you know, and I was standing next to a bird and a ramen noodle cup. And, uh,

and we, you know, went through, uh, a verse in Matthew, you know, like it's a, it's a weird thing.

Like I get that it's, I get that it's weird to a lot of people. Um, but yeah, it really does kind of

go deeper than, than just, am I physically in this location? Um, and, and what is that? What,

why is that a thing? Like, why, why does that exist? Um, because if I can, if I can interact with

somebody, um, it honestly, it does, it does hit a certain point where you say, well, then what is

considered gathering if somebody is, um, if somebody's deaf, are they being like taken out of

that then because they can't hear you, you know? Um, is it the physical location? Okay. So if somebody

has a, you know, I don't, I don't want to straw man this, but you, you really do kind of start to limit

things where it's like, what, what is the actual thing that you're trying to do? Is it better to,

to hear somebody and not be able to sense their presence or, you know, I just trying to get my

mind around what you're actually, what you're actually saying when you say these things, um,

that it's, yeah, I'll stop. I've, I've got, there's, here's a kind of a layer that I'm going to get a

little bit ethereal and spiritual for a second, but just hang with me. All right. Um, there is a passage

of scripture where the apostle Paul talks about how he wishes he could be with some of the believers,

but he can't and being in prison. I mean, that's pretty obvious. And so he says that he will be

with them in spirit. Now, what in the world does that mean? Man, I don't know, but I do believe that

God and the Holy Spirit transcends physical space. He created space. He created time.

And anyone that is prayed with anyone else in a chat room, um, feels what I'm talking about,

where it doesn't, distance doesn't matter. Um, you feel the prayers of people

because there is something spiritual and transcendent going on. And just hang with me for a little bit.

If it is true that we are human spirits ministering to each other, using a layer of abstraction,

our physical bodies to make that happen. If you're doing that in the VR space, it's just one more layer

of abstraction. That's all it is. At the end of the day, we have spirits that are ministering to spirits.

And we have the Holy Spirit that's within us ministering and transcending and doing groanings

that can't be entered. There is a mystical aspect of this, that if you limit church to just a physical

proximity, you're missing out on the mystery that is, uh, ministering in the spirit and even fellowship

in the spirit. Um, and I think that there is, if, if we are really eternal souls having a physical

experience right now, then it is not that different to have another type of virtual. And I hesitate to even

use that word because at the end of the day, the spiritual realm is real. It's not virtual.

But if you have real spirits ministering to real spirits, who cares what the intermedium is,

whether it's, if it's physical proximity or a VR chat, who cares? Yeah. Because I am ministering to

another person, another soul, another spirit, whether I'm using physical, um, avatars or digital ones,

I don't know that it really matters. One of the interesting things that I do find about the

scriptures that you shared, Jade, are two things. In the one scripture, um, Jesus says anyone, two or

three are gathered in my name. The, in my name part is what we forget. We get all fixated on the

gathering. When could this be a gathering, what we're doing right now? I think so. In my name,

it doesn't say who are gathered in physical proximity or gathered in the same room. And then you get back

to what I was talking about originally about being with someone in spirit. I think there's something to

that I don't know all of the theological ramifications of that, but if we limit ourselves to just

physical proximity for ministry, we're going to miss out on a lot of ministry that we could potentially do

and using a lot of tools that we could be using. Now I say that, and I have a question that I want to pose

to the group that is in the second passage that you referenced, Jade, in Acts 2. And that is the

breaking of bread, which for a lot of churches, especially in a traditional type of atmosphere,

fellowship and breaking of bread together are kind of one in the same, where I don't think they really

are, but there's something to be said there. When someone sits down and eats a meal with someone,

it feels like, even in a spiritual sense, that something unlocks. And any of you that are familiar

with like the blessed method, or even in the way that Jesus, in his transcended spiritual state,

after being resurrected from the dead, when he broke bread with the disciples, that's when their eyes

were opened, and they realized, oh, this is Jesus. Again, I think there's something to breaking bread with

people and sharing a meal with people that is a little bit more difficult to achieve in the digital

space. And I'm not talking about fellowship, I'm talking about the breaking of bread piece

that many times gets mixed in with fellowship, and can unlock deeper forms of fellowship. And I don't

really have the answer to this. And the breaking of bread piece is what I would love to post to the

group. Has any of you guys shared a meal digitally? Because that seems to be part of the Christian

experience too.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, all of that, like, awesome. I think that's what you're saying is, is so good for

for people that don't think about, especially for people that don't use online regularly,

whoever never thought about communicating with somebody in an online setting that don't see

it as spirits to spirits, as an actual, because, because, yeah, a lot of people don't think about

it that way. But people that are online that use their avatar as the way to communicate with people,

I mean, for them, that feels that that that maybe they're more open in that setting than they would

be even in a physical where they would just shut down. And it's not really, you know, I've seen that

time and time again.

Oh, yeah, me too.

Yeah. So Jason, yeah, I'd ask I asked kind of the same question I'm going to always ask. But like,

what, why? Like, what, what is it about breaking bread that there's a piece there? There's obviously

something like you said, maybe it's going deeper with fellowship, or maybe it's that in sharing

experiences that unlock something? Is it the actual food itself? You know, like, is it the action of

pulling bread apart that unlock, you know what I mean? Like, I mean, I'm guessing not. But my,

but my point is, there is a like, you have to really wonder what it is. Before, because anytime

that we take something, we say this specific thing, for this reason, but if we can't apply a reason to

it, unless, unless it's, it's, I mean, you know, God says, do this thing. And then you don't ask me a

reason why, just do it, then okay, you just do it, you know, and so that there's that balance of,

is this a is this something that is commanded, that he says, pull bread apart, when you're together,

you know, this is a command? Or is it something that he's telling you? Think about why? Why are

you doing this? Why pull bread apart? You know, what is the reason for it? And I, maybe I'm reading

this verse wrong. But my feeling is that there's a there's a why by what is it? What are we actually

doing when we do this? If that makes sense? Yeah, I think what I think there is something primal about

sharing a meal with someone that you just don't, I mean, you just don't do that with people that you

don't care about. And because of that primal nature, I don't know where it comes from. Maybe God put that

within us. I mean, he could have made us where, you know, we could be like plants, and we don't need to

eat at all. But he made us on purpose to have to eat. And to, and he made us with one mouth so that

when we're stuffing our face, we can't really talk. And we have to listen to somebody. I mean, there's

some very basic elemental things where I think God was very intentional in the way that he did it.

And I think one of the only ways that we could approximate that, and by the way, just a

parenthesis, many of the expressions of the, of the prevailing church, don't do this either. Right?

We don't break bread together either. So I think one of the opportunities that we have in the digital

space is to pioneer, maybe a new expression of breaking bread. And I use that as just a metaphor

for sharing a meal. But one of the ways that I've seen it done, and is to just set up a video chat while

you're eating with someone else who's in a video chat while they're eating, and you're seeing their

face, and you're talking with them. And you're, you're not physically sharing your own food. Yeah,

like you are right now. Like you're not physically sharing your own food. And I think there's something

that is helpful in that as well, that if you were to dissect and say, Okay, the, there is a spiritual

discipline of sharing, of being generous with what you have, that is important, that in the digital

space, we need to be intentional about. But I think there's another aspect of just being able to talk to

one another. And if we're eating together, even if it's over a video chat, it feels like something

is different than when we're just talking. Yeah. And I don't know what that is, but it's there.

Well, when you're breaking bread, your defenses are down, right? I mean, it's, it's like the whole

thing. Culturally, why we shake hands is so that our right hands are busy, not holding our guns or

our knives. And so shaking hands is what breaks down the defenses. And Jade, if in the podcast audience

has no idea, but Jade, if you could pass that box of cereal over here, that would be awesome. I would

love. Yeah, he's eating golden grams over there on his side. But there's a, there's a, there's a,

you release those defense mechanisms. There's a lot of intimacy when it comes to sitting around,

drinking coffee, ship breaking bread together, sharing, sharing a meal with that. Honestly,

I feel that defense mechanism is down as a general role over zoom or virtual communications anyway,

because for me, the, the, the webcam and the TV monitor, the, the computer monitor I'm literally

looking at at this moment is that is allows for that intimacy of it. I don't, I don't have to have

my defense mechanisms up talking to Jason Morris. Cause I know Jason Morris is not going to stab me with

his knife. And so like, I can be relaxed in that scenario. Joey, a little sketchy, maybe something

could happen there in time. Only time will tell, but I'm not face to face with him. So once again,

yeah, he knows people. We all know people. Okay. So there's this opportunity we have to, um, to, to

embrace wholeheartedly with that. This is great. I love that that breaking the bread though. Um, sharing that meal virtually

I've done that. Um, honestly, for me, it's been more out of, I'm so busy. I haven't eaten. I think I did it this

week. I literally was like eating leftover dinner from last night when I was in a meeting with somebody on

zoom. I don't know that I went into that moment, you know, thinking, Hey, let me let this be a moment of intimacy.

Um, and the guy I was with probably wouldn't have appreciated the intimacy either, but maybe that's

something that I, you know, need to consider into the future. How do we get more, um, intimate online

without being weird? Cause that's not what I mean, but Jake, did you have something else? Uh,

yeah. Yeah. So like, okay. So my, the reason I ask is because I do, I think that's something,

I think that's something that we should look at. Like it is something we need to figure out is,

is why for those things. And if my, my thought, my gut reaction is the things that you're saying

are, are right. That there is a, um, that you're talking, um, it, a lot of it, I honestly,

I think it's a cultural thing that at the time, the breaking bread would have been kind of a,

the, the time to really talk about things, go throughout the week, have experiences.

Um, for me today, uh, I've, I've said it's, it's difficult for me to imagine what my relationships

with other people would be like if there wasn't video games, you know, like I can't, I don't,

I don't know how other people do it. I mean, maybe they watch Netflix together. Maybe they go to the

movies together, you know, that, and those are, those are experiences. It's difficult at movies.

Cause you can't really talk, uh, to one another. Right. So it's a cool experience. You think about

like, remember that time we went to the movies together. Remember that time that we went, uh,

to the mall together. Okay, cool. Like we can talk at the mall and we can have shared experiences

and so on. But I mean, man, video games are just so great for that because I'm in a voice channel

with a bunch of people. I see them, you know, and we're talking about life while we're running,

you know, down, uh, into battle, you know, or whatever the heck it is. And, uh, that, that

experience, um, I get to know people very, very well. I just went to Japan with a bunch of my friends.

There are nine friends went to Japan together. Uh, four of them I had never met in person.

Uh, we'd only played video games together. And I'll tell you what, those four, I, I know better,

uh, have better connections than the other people that I just had physically that, that I, that were

in my proximity that I went to church with. We're in my small group even because man, I'm hanging out

with these guys six days out of the week or whatever. And these guys that I physically hang out

with, I only saw once or twice a week at small group, you know? So, you know, you touched on

something, Jay, that I think is very important to highlight is just the amount of sheer time that

you're spending with these people. Like if we were to limit fellowship to a one hour a week thing,

we're missing out on so much opportunity where even if we had a one hour and a small group, okay,

three or four hours max for the week, man, you're probably pulling that off in a day with some of

your good friends online. Well, and that's how much, how much closer is your relationships because

of that? And that's actually one of the advantages I see to the digital world is, you know, we look at

scriptures, it's gathering daily, do not give up gathering daily. And I look at our world right now

and it's like, we're always so busy that digital, I think is the way to really garner that fellowship,

which is what Jake was talking about. I mean, it's like, even those half hour, 45 minute conversations

make a big difference. However, you know, one of those statistics, you know, the going back to

Jake's why is one of those statistics of, and at least for me as a father, this is kind of one of

those paramount things is they show that children who eat meals around a table with their parents

have better relation skills, have better interaction skills, have better connection

with their family, which gives them greater stability in life. So that's one of, that's where kind of one of

those big struggles that we're going to have, I think digitally with fellowship. And I, that's,

I think breaking the bread is an analogy or a symbolism of that exact scenario. And I don't,

as much as I want it to, I don't think digital will get all the way there. But a lot of the barriers

that keep us from being intimate will be removed digitally because as Jake said, hey, I know these

four guys really well. And I'm going to guess, Jake, you can, you know, chime in or not, but I'm going to

guess that when you ate with them and spent time with them, it was even deeper because you didn't have

to go through all the surface garbage anymore. Yeah. I mean, I, I think it definitely, it definitely was

a different, there's a different there. There's a, it's not, it's not fully the same. There,

there is something different about meeting physically in a location with somebody. I don't want to,

I don't want to diminish that because I think it's important, you know, like we have bodies for a

reason. But I like the, the, the specific example that I think I got from Todd, but it might've been

actually from Pat, but he said something like, could you get married online?

Yes. Could you never meet your wife ever? And you just only meet online and you're always online

for the rest of your life. Yeah. And that might even be okay, but there's probably something,

uh, you know, and I, I probably don't need to go very much further than that of why for some people,

that would be very, um, not fulfilling for them. Everybody that's married does nods their heads.

All right. Not me. Cause I'm not married. Um, but, but there is something, you know, there's something

different about being in a physical location and being able to hug somebody and, and all that. So,

but the, the, the, the thing that I think that you're hitting on is not even just time,

but if we're looking at physical church, are they are, is the church daily meeting with people in the

church to, to eat for lunch? Like, no, uh, maybe never. Some people after Sunday, they will go

after church to meet and, and do that. You know, I have a group of friends that I go to do that with

sometimes regularly. Um, but it's not like it's, it's, it's, that's why I asked what the, what the

why is because it's okay. That that's something that we should put in there. Then if that, if meeting

physically, I have relationships with people online that our relationships have gotten a lot better.

Um, when we, we met online, talked for like a couple months or whatever, and then we met,

we met in person. And maybe, maybe that's a thing is that physical or online exclusive church could say,

all right, if that's really actually important because there's something different that unlocks

in our relationships online after that, well, then maybe we do every six months, there's a meetup

and you break bread together. You get, it's a big dinner, everybody meets. And then after that,

you go back to online because you can do that daily, you know, but, but every six months,

we're going to do this thing. And I think that's, there's, yeah, there's definitely something to be

said for that. I totally agree. Yeah. And that, that meetup, actually, I, that's something that,

as I'm looking at designing digital churches and working with them, I actually think that meetup's

important. Um, you know, and, and I, I look at, you know, um, uh, Saddleback, uh, Jay Cranda,

Jay's looking at doing, um, the, the meetups with their house churches. He's talking about doing them every,

uh, six to 18 months. I think he's wrestling with that, trying to encourage everybody coming together

and then him coming in, uh, and doing that, even as, as I was producing, um, house churches and

micro locations. Um, there were, there were times where we would fly everybody in who were doing the

micro locations, the Christ Fellowship Miami, just to encourage, to cast vision, to, to work towards that.

Uh, because ultimately you're right. There is something that, that can be, can,

can be gained, can be learned, can be experienced in that, in that physical space. And Jay, I will

forever use the marriage, um, analogy. That is awesome. It was a little weird coming from a single

guy, I got to admit, but I think there's totally a lot of weight in that. So thank you. Thank you for

sharing that. Hey, and this was the easy one. Like this was supposed to be the throwaway. Let's just

move on. And we ended up spending a lot of time on the easy one. So that, that's awesome. All right.

So we're going to wrap with Fellowship. I want to thank these guys for jumping on the podcast. Uh,

uh, Jason Morris, Ian Kirk, Joey Santos, uh, Jade Earhart. Man, you guys are great. By the way,

they did this. They gave a couple hours for this conversation on a Saturday. They were so

passionate about having this conversation about digital church. We've got two of the parts done.

We are going to part three. We're going to publish that here in a little bit. So episode 66

is actually going to be, uh, biblical functions of a digital church. Part three. Look for it here

in a couple of days, but for now, we're going to wrap for the crowd, Jason, Ian, Joey, and, um,

Jade. This is Jeff, the church digital. Thanks for joining us. And we'll see you next time

here on the podcast. Y'all have a day.