EP070: Ray Hudson & Church Planting, Digital First

All right, we got episode 70, 70 of the Church Digital Podcast powered by Stadia Church Planning.

Jeff here once again, and we got a great episode set up for you.

By the way, this dovetails so well into what episode 69 was.

If you didn't catch episode 69, phenomenal conversation talking about being digital first

in this mid-COVID, going to post-COVID season as we're coming out of this.

What lessons did we learn in this COVID season?

How should we be thinking in the way forward?

What role do buildings play?

What role does digital play?

And this idea of digital first came to a forefront.

So go back, listen to episode 69, Matt Welty from Crossroads Church, Jason Morris from Westside

Family, phenomenal conversation.

But this sets up episode 70 so well, because in this conversation, we've actually got a

church planter, Ray, don't call me Raymond Hudson.

Okay, that's not his name.

Ray Hudson.

He's a church planter, our city center out over in California.

And the guy wasn't even supposed to plant a physical church until September 2020.

And when this COVID thing happened, he didn't wait.

He jumped.

He didn't regret.

He didn't, you know, kick a can and say, okay, what am I supposed to do now?

He jumped and launched early.

And I love the fact that he's going in and impacting a community.

He's trying to reach an area and he's utilizing digital tools and digital technology to impact

the physical location of Berkeley, California in a great way.

And I'm excited about the stuff that he's doing in this season.

But the thing that I love most, and even just in my mind as I'm wrapping around these two

podcasts, 69 and 70, back to back, is we've got a guy here with Ray who's thanking digital

first.

Episode 69, we talked about how it was so important that we, the church, start to thank digital

first.

And when I look at Ray Hudson, episode 70, our city center, here's a guy that is thanking

digital first with his church plant.

Now, what that looks like, some of the stuff that Ray's talking about is crazy exciting.

Some of it's just crazy, crazy.

I'm not sure if it's executable.

You know what?

It all is.

And that's the deal because it's, you've got to think different.

And what Ray is showing here, even in his youngness as being a church planner that's just launching

and just getting out there, is that this stuff is possible.

It just takes a different perspective.

And so churches of any size, large to small, the importance of here, of this podcast, the

importance of this conversation is simple.

Listen to what it is to think different and get a taste of what thinking different looks

like, because you need to take thinking different.

You need to take digital first to your churches.

And what you're going to hear Raymond Hudson doing here in a second, excuse me, sorry, Raymond,

Ray Hudson doing here in a second, is a beautiful expression of how to think digital first in

context of what your church is.

So for this conversation, we are bringing in Raymond, nope, sorry, Ray Hudson, our city center,

lead pastor, church planner out in Berkeley, California.

Emily Diaz, who's project manager with Stadia Church Planning, works with Ray, and she's going

to serve as co-host, of course.

And myself, Jeff, with the Church Digital and Stadia Church Planning in a conversation that

I'm calling Church Planting Digital First.

Okay, everybody.

Here you go.

Yeah.

I'm Raymond Hudson.

I am from the East Coast.

So not Miami, but the East Coast.

And first church I ever was a part of that was a church plant was when I was 17.

So one of my mentors, Dave Crosby, planted community church in the Poconos.

And so I was on that.

That was my first launch team.

I think I was age 17, snot-nosed kid.

He was my youth pastor for a while.

Stories of me turning out lights in the middle of service, you know, all that fun stuff that

you do when you're a young kid.

But yeah, so my story started really at 13, though.

I got saved, filled and called and commissioned to ministry.

I was a basketball player.

So I love basketball, but at age 13, I gave it up because I felt like God told me that

he's calling me to be in ministry.

So that story leads me from the East Coast to Springfield, Missouri, where I went to Central

Bible College and got called to youth ministry.

And so then just through all of that, I got my master's degree, working on my doctorate

right now.

And through all different ministry, led me to the West Coast, where I was the executive

pastor at New Love Church, and one of my main roles was overseeing church planting.

And so I think in that was kind of before that, but really there where I started working in

that kind of passion of planting and multi-site strategy.

I enjoy strategy.

But yeah, I'm no one special, just a heart to go wherever God tells me.

I think that's kind of where we're at, where I just, God, where you want me to go, I'm going

to go.

If I got friends and mentors that tell me, hey, here's some things that you should look

at doing, I do that.

Like even Stadia, I didn't really know Stadia until a friend of mine's, Dan, you know, Dan,

up in Washington, who said, hey, you should go through Stadia.

And I was already like partway through my process already.

So it's just, I really just try to go where God tells me to go and listen to good wisdom.

Like Emily, Emily's great.

So whatever she says to do, I do in most cases.

Not true.

You had your own vision, your own plan.

So talk to us a little bit about your church plant and your place and kind of why, why Berkeley

and what's the vision of City Center Church?

Yeah.

The reason for Berkeley, I think would even stem back to like when I was younger in ministry

and I had someone asked me to do Chi Alpha ministry.

Do you guys know what Chi Alpha is?

It's like a college ministry.

So like the Chi Alpha go to campus.

And so, so they asked me about doing it in Manhattan.

And so at that time, I still don't think there is, but there's, there wasn't an, a Chi Alpha

on NYU campus because it's just how expensive it is, you know, in that area.

So I remember talking to my wife about it.

We're like, yeah, we don't really want to do that.

You know, I'd write.

And at that point in my mind, I thought, man, it would be way better to work at the university.

And this is like young in ministry.

It'd be way better to work at the university and then plant a church or a ministry off of

that because now you're kind of integrated in that culture.

And so I've always joked around with my wife.

And so I say joke and she always says, it's not serious.

Stop talking about it.

Even the planting journey of just saying, man, how cool would it be to, to work at a university

and then plant a church out of it?

And so I would say even, you know, you know, probably at age 24, when, you know, we were

asked about that, even then I was like, man, like, how cool would it be to be in like a

college town and work at a university and plant a thriving church that's in partnership with

the university instead of not, you know, instead of separate.

So, yeah.

So the call of Berkeley is, you know, just an interesting one.

So I've been at, I was at New Life Church for, you know, a little over four years.

And so year one, so probably like a year into being there, there was a guy who planted a

church in Berkeley.

And so he had been there for like seven years and the church was getting ready to really be

done.

And they were moving on to their next season of ministry.

So he's moving on to the, to his, a different season of ministry.

And so he actually asked our church to take over his church in Berkeley.

And so I remember sitting down with my pastor and us talking about it and I was over kind

of our multi-site model of what we were doing.

And we just felt like at this time, it wasn't, you know, the season to go into Berkeley.

So we just said, Hey, you know, that's not, you know, for us.

And so then, you know, kind of the, the progression from that is like two and a half years ago,

almost three, I was sitting at Pete's coffee, which is the best coffee shop.

So hopefully I get some like marketing dollars for marketing Pete's coffee on your podcast.

Um, but I was sitting at Pete's coffee.

Pete, if you're interested, call me directly, uh, numbers listed on the show.

Yeah.

I'll give you a 10% commission off that rate.

Nice.

Nice.

Thank you.

Thank you.

You're so generous.

Um, and, uh, yeah.

And so I was at Pete's coffee about, you know, almost three years ago.

And I felt like God say, you're going to be a part of city center church.

Um, and so I remember as I was sitting out thinking about that and I'm like, God, you know,

what did you say?

So, you know, God speaks and then we all act right.

So we think God speaks.

And so then that must, you know, that means, okay, you know, I'm into new life two years,

I guess it's time for me to leave, you know, or go on.

And it wasn't that, uh, but I remember at that moment was kind of where the first seed

of just like what, you know, uh, some type of a church.

And so fast forward, uh, March last year, uh, me and my wife went to something called

the CMN conference, uh, which is church multiplication at work.

And so at that conference, we felt God say, Hey, um, I'm calling you to plant that.

We have been praying.

I have been praying really for the last two years.

I'm like, God, what is, what is, what's next in the season?

Is it, I'm at, I'm at new life for the next 10 years or, you know, so I had been praying

that, um, and my wife even started feeling like God was saying, Hey, at some point you

guys are going to pastor.

Um, but March last year, so not, you know, a month ago, but March, a year ago, um, we really

went to the conference and a few of our mentors really confirmed it and we felt like God was

saying, you know, Hey, I'm calling you to, to pastor a church.

We didn't know planting, but to pastor.

And so literally I'm at the conference and I text my boss and I say, Hey, uh, pastor Doug,

um, don't know what this means, but I'd like to talk to you.

I feel like God is stirring something in my heart.

And so then two days later, you know, I'm back, me and him meet and I say, Hey, I feel

like God is calling us to pastor at some point, but I don't know what this looks like.

You know, you know, I say all the things so that I don't, you know, I got a family.

So I'm like, Hey, I'm not, I'm not searching for a job right now.

I'm not, no one's called me.

Uh, we just feel this, you know, this God call.

And so then two days later from that, I get a call from a church in Richmond, um, where

the pastor says, Hey, I've called around to six different people all around the country.

And they all sent me back to you to say, man, you might be a great fit for Berkeley.

Um, and so there was a church in need there, you know, so that partnership with that church

didn't necessarily work out.

Um, but what I did do is I, I let them know, Hey, if God's calling me to the city, just like

you guys tell planters all the time, I need to know that God's calling me here.

And if there's a community that he's calling me to, there was a church that was there that

needed revitalization.

I said, man, I don't want to be called to a church and God's calling me to a city.

I want to make sure that, you know, I know God's calling me to a city and wherever, if

it's a church or the people that God's calling me to that it's, it's about reaching lost people.

Like, I don't want to have to go to a church and then for, you know, four years, try to

get them on mission to, um, impact the city.

Like, I want to know that God's calling me to a city.

Then if he's calling me there, where is he telling me to go from there?

So then April, I literally go there every day.

So I lived in, um, Danville, which is about 35 minutes without traffic to Berkeley.

Um, and so I just went and drove the streets of Berkeley every day.

So there's, um, different Pete's coffee shops, uh, in Berkeley.

So I literally drove to every Pete's coffee.

So I, I found out every Pete's coffee, you know, again, like I, I worked with planters,

we helped fund planters.

So I just knew, man, if God's calling me to, to do anything in the city, I need to know

the community, know, get to meet people and then know like we're in the city.

Like a lot of people come to the Bay area and they try to, they say, Hey, I'm called to

San Francisco.

Well, San Francisco is a huge beast.

So it can't be just be that you're called to San Francisco.

So even for Berkeley, you know, I, you know, to be honest, I was like, am I committing

like career suicide to try to go plant a church in the city of Berkeley?

Um, and so, yeah, but just praying, like literally every spot I went.

So going back to the vision question, like every Pete's coffee I went to, I felt like God

gave me a heart for the different communities, you know?

So I started at this, there's a famous area called people's park in the city of Berkeley.

So there's a Pete's coffee right at the corner.

So I went there, prayed, I felt like God say, man, there's a homelessness crisis and, you know,

really the Bay area, but in Berkeley, you know, I want your church to be a, um, a resource

for that.

And so, you know, so I wrote that, I put that in our plan.

And, uh, then I went to downtown Berkeley where the school is and, you know, and so I

remember driving around where the students hang out and just feeling like a burden for

the students that are there, but really feeling like God saying, I'm not calling you to be

a, a, uh, a church for the campus, which a lot of churches that come into Berkeley, they're

a church for the campus.

And I really feel like God say, I want you to be a church for the community.

Um, and you'll impact the campus, but I want you to be a church for the community.

So, so then I went from there and then to North Bray, which you don't know that area,

but North Bray, Gourmet, Ghetto, 4th street.

Like I just went all around Berkeley and I felt like every spot I went, God kept giving

vision for the community.

Um, and so city center church, I kind of vision, I was, um, kind of two parts.

I was, uh, there's a Tilden park area, um, Tilden forest, which is at the top of Berkeley.

And I was driving up there and it was a really foggy day.

So it gets foggy in the city of Berkeley.

Um, and so as I'm driving up there, I feel like God, you know, really before this, I

kept feeling like God saying, I'm calling you to be a beacon of hope, a beacon of hope,

a beacon of hope.

And so I'm driving up there and it's super foggy.

And I felt like God say, um, remember when I kept saying, I'm calling you to be a beacon

of hope.

I'm like, yes, you know, obviously, right.

I'm responding.

Um, and I felt like God stopped me.

So I stopped my car and I look over and he said, what I'm asking you to do is easier than

you think.

Now let's be honest, like to plant a church anywhere and then in the city of Berkeley and

really anywhere, um, it's, it's super difficult, but I felt like God say it's easier than what

you think.

Um, he said, um, think of it as people are just in a fog and they just can't see me.

So all I'm asking you to do is show people me through their fog.

And so, so that's where kind of our vision of just, man, we want to impact the Bay area

and starting in Berkeley, just one community, one family, one person at a time.

Um, and, um, yeah.

And so that's kind of where our vision came in.

Um, even, you know, part of our vision of loving and serving, um, we've just seen, like

I got literally before this podcast, I got off the call, just got off the phone with Aaron,

who's the director of the Berkeley school funds.

And we've just been doing tons of partnerships with them.

We helped them, um, build out.

It's like over 2,800 school kits for needy families and the students in the city of Berkeley.

And, and all the walls that you think would be up are down right now.

Like they're reaching out to us.

They just reached out to us.

We're going to, I'm partnering with echo church to help out eight homeless families right

now.

Um, we're, we can't help out eight homeless families, but our church is going to help out

one homeless family.

And we're going to try to partner with a few other churches to help out the rest.

And so we've just seen what's, what's fascinating here with, with Ray, with even this language

is, and, and, and forgive me.

I, I want to say the word launch.

And every time I say the word launch, uh, somebody corrects me and say, Jeff, we don't

launch churches.

You, you, you, you're, you're starting this thing.

You're making a difference in the community of, of, of where you are.

You're already impacting, working with organizations, 2,800 meals, eight homeless, like you're thrown

out a bunch of stats and numbers here, but you, you, you, you're not even supposed to start

your actual physical location campus gathering stuff until the fall.

So like, how are you a church now when you're not even like in this COVID season, when you're

not even doing, doing the gatherings, what, what you, you started early, you launched digital.

What, walk me through some of, of that, that mentality.

Like what was the need that you saw and why did you think you can solve that utilizing cloud

services and social media?

Like, talk to me about that.

Well, I think too, like for us, like what I've told our team multiple times is we actually

launched back in August for the official end community, like launching that we're doing

with, uh, I think with Stadia through their partnership and CMN and just our different

partners, yes, we had a launch date of September, but I actually never even wanted to put our

launch date on it.

So I took it off and then some said, put it on and some said, take it off.

So, you know, that's all funny.

Um, but like, so back in August, we, I said, one of our vision was we wanted to, we, we felt

like the start of our church was when we started partnering, loving and serving.

Like that was part of the vision of saying, how do we, how do we make it in a city like

Berkeley?

Well, they're about causes they're about serving.

And so we wanted to be a church that loved and served before we launched.

And so even before the, you know, the whole digital launch per se, we were already doing

things, you know, we were already, I felt like we were already being the church.

Um, it's just, there was a title that we were putting on it and to launch successful, we were

going through the right steps, um, to, in order to accomplish what God was calling us to

accomplish, which was a sustainable church.

Um, but so the digital church was, um, you know, and I've been in the reason why we were

able to launch digitally.

Was I had already, and I told Emily this, I had already been dealing in my mind.

Uh, really not being okay.

And so I always say this.

And so it's, so it's in love, but not okay with the M rhythm, but the M rhythm is great.

So not okay because it's not good, but not okay.

Because what I didn't want in my heart was to put on events just to get people's information

because we had already been a church of serving, you know, we had, I think, you know, from August

to, to, uh, January, we had served thousands of people already, um, without anyone for anything.

And so when we, when we launched digital, when everything happened with COVID, it's so weird.

I actually was excited over nervous.

Um, and I don't mean excited for all the difficulties I was excited because one of the things that

I pray all the time is like, God, help me to innovate the expression of the gospel.

Um, and, and, and I want to be at the forefront of stuff, not at the backend.

You know, my wife is always stopping me because I'm an entrepreneur.

I, I have, if you look at my phone, I've got like tons of business ideas.

My wife always rings me in and says, you're called a pastor, not business ideas.

So I say that to say, um, I feel like my heart is always God, wherever you want me to

go, I'll go.

And so one of the things that God said to me at the beginning of this process was be

adaptable.

That's why even being with stadia was being adaptable.

I could have just stuck with my plan and I had it already lined out.

Emily will tell you, I came with a plan lined out, but I felt, but I knew that in order

to accomplish what God wanted, I had to expand my partnerships and be adaptable.

That's what God said.

So when this happened, uh, literally the week of it happening, I thought, I felt like God

say, this is exactly why I called you to plant a church because I don't want you to, I

didn't, I don't want you to shrink back.

I actually want you to run forward in this season and, um, and to pastor, um, people who

are in need.

So your team and to continue to love and serve those who are not on your team.

And so, um, so yeah, I feel like it was just a moment of just feeling like God saying, run

forward, you know, um, as I prayed and thought through, man, I was feeling uneasy about like

what the rhythm was going to look like already.

Um, and then strategy saying, if this goes on through September, um, what is it going to

look like to launch right now?

So it was both strategy.

It was, you know, started with prayer, then strategy.

And so, yeah, it's just, I launched digitally because I, I asked people first, uh, you know,

which was, you know, smart.

And some said, don't do it.

Some said, do it.

Some said, you know, just be smart and how you do it.

Uh, but I just felt like, man, I love to preach.

Uh, I felt like we were, we were set team wise.

Like we had a, we had, we have a great team that had already been going together.

We were already joking about, man, maybe we'll do an Easter pop-up service.

Um, you know, already been talking about that.

So it was literally just a, our, you know, we already are in the community.

Our team's already set.

Um, it's just adapting all of our plans.

Um, and I was like, all right, great.

And, um, yeah, so we just prayed.

I, um, the process of that was prayer.

And then I talked to our board.

Then I talked to some, I had a meeting with Emily that it was like a Thursday or something.

I talked to our leadership team that night.

We had a launch team meeting on March 15th, which was like the week, um, that everything

got shut down.

So we were online with our launch team meeting and then literally in a week.

So from March 15th to the March 22nd, we started an online church and, um, we did our

first team meeting on zoom, which was the 15th.

And then we started services on this 22nd just to do our preview.

So we did three weekends of preview and then, you know, launched Easter weekend.

Right.

I love what you said about how God has called you to be an, an, an innovator of, um, in

expressions of, of the gospel.

That's such a, a beautiful way of, of expressing that.

And also a high calling, right.

Of man being on the forefront, like you said.

So tell us a little bit of how you starting this digital campus, a digital church, how that

is an expression of the gospel for your community.

Um, yeah, I think, um, I think, I think, I think, I think for us, the beginning of the

expression is not looking at the, at our digital service as our service, let's say, or our church.

And more looking at it as a, an awareness, like bringing hope to people who are listening

in.

And the reason why that's, I think is different is because I think what we're seeing right

now, and again, I'm, I hate to, you know, this is my opinion.

Right.

Um, and so, and I'm, I'm still trying this, but what we're seeing right now is churches

are duplicating what they do on Sunday.

Right.

So a bunch of churches are duplicating what they do on Sunday, which is not a bad thing,

but they're duplicating what they do on Sunday.

And so they're trying to get people to watch for an hour or hour and 15 minutes or have

long worship sets and messages that are very, not very long that are long.

Oh, no, you can say very long.

It's okay.

Very long.

Very long.

And so, um, and, and not that that's a bad thing, but I feel like, you know, for a church

that's been going, they're just trying to push through until, uh, you know, everything changes.

And so I think on ours, the innovation that we're trying to do, and we're still adapting

and all of that is to create a space that's easy for an unbeliever to show up to online.

That is just a first step and not the last step.

Like, I feel like a lot of times it's like, okay, we've done church because we have a service

online when for us, it's not that we're more saying, how do we create a message that both

offers hope and then, and then points it to the gospel.

So like, if you were to watch one of our services, I preached for 15 minutes, the first three

weeks, and I went 20, uh, or a little bit less than 20 the last two weeks, but my goal

is 15 to 16 minutes.

And so, you know, just a practical like testimony.

We had a few non-believers who, who jumped on, um, a few of my ones who I texted to say,

Hey, just watch through our service.

Um, who said, man, I wish, you know, we never hear this in church.

I wish the message was longer.

That's from an unbeliever who said that.

Right.

And so, so for us, like even worship, like we're not, we don't do a worship set.

We have like a song potentially that's enhancing the message.

So the question we're asking as a team is like, is there a song that enhances the topic that

we're talking about?

Um, and so, yeah, so I think we're trying to innovate in that way.

We, we do a leaders meeting pre-service and we do an after party after our service.

So we actually have a leaders meeting that's an hour before our service where we're building

our launch team.

Cause I want to be able to tell Emily, Hey, we're continuing to build our launch team.

And we're not building our launch team per se through a service outside of the troops

are helping them, but we're creating an environment for them to invite friends.

But we do a leaders meeting for an hour.

And I say an hour, it's an hour before service.

It goes for like 30, 35 minutes where we're talking engagement online.

We're talking about what our week was like.

We're getting prepped for, for the service block, you know, so that's happening.

And then after service, which is one of the innovative things that we want to do in church

is that we want to create a space.

Like, so I guess I would say what I don't want to do is take what we're doing now and

say, okay, now we're going to do church.

Like it's always been done when we go in person.

Uh, one of our biggest things has always been, how do we rethink church?

And so I'm actually, we're actually looking at how we're doing church right now and saying,

how can we take what we're doing now and duplicate that, or at least take what we're

doing now into a, into a in-person gathering.

So part of that is, you know, maybe not even calling ourselves a church, but we are a church.

So this is so random, but not a, but I'm saying where we create an environment, like

in Berkeley, where it's like, we're having conversations around faith.

And so, because it's a conversation, you know, I may, there may be a, a video teaching

of me and, or a message or conversation that I have for 15 minutes or 20 minutes.

And then our leaders, and this is, I'm still working through this, but our leaders are then

actually leading a, a, a group discussion group afterwards.

Um, and it's not after, but during the service.

So, so it's just, everything looks shorter.

So even our worship still doesn't look like we're having a full worship set.

It looks like we are having a song or two that's engaging the topic that we're talking

about.

Um, and maybe there's smaller spaces that we're looking at, you know, I hate to go all

into it, but you know, those are things that we're thinking about.

So I think in the innovating of what's happening online, I think it's further than that, where

we are saying like, can we create a church that actually looks different?

I think a lot of times when we, when we innovate, what happens in church, we move a few songs

around or we add a video and say whatever.

Um, but like, is there really a church that looks different than any other church outside

of how it's done?

It's done, you know?

Um, and so I think that that's something that we're looking at.

Like our after party, we, you know, it's one of our most engaging times where people actually

can have conversations around what was just discussed.

Um, so I've been talking to some psychologists and stuff and thinking like, how do people learn?

Like people learn from doing, like they hear something and then they do something with it.

And I think a lot of times that doing happens later in the week, which is fine.

Um, but we're like, Hey, what does it look like?

Like another thing, like midweek, like right now we do a midweek small group gathering.

So we call it our city groups.

Um, we don't see that changing.

So, um, moving forward, we may continue to do midweek digitally.

Um, you know, we probably will still have a digital campus that is not just a, um,

a play of what's happening during Sunday.

Um, but it's specific to what that digital campus is.

We may have a campus pastor that doesn't even live in Berkeley, but knows how to facilitate,

um, digitally a church, you know?

So anyway, I'm, I'm rambling right now, but those are all things that we're thinking about

and talking through.

I love, I mean, I love all of this.

The idea of doing the post-service, tying it into a Bible study of sorts.

Do you, you have, I'm just curious, do people jump on zoom?

We don't say Bible study.

We don't say Bible study.

I'm sorry.

That's, that's the uncool word.

Um, but you're, you're after party, keeping it on brand, my fault.

Uh, so you're after party.

Um, but you're, you're tying into the message, reinforcing that.

It's interesting.

Like, and I'm even pulling a thread a little bit on that.

So the average Ted talks 18 minutes.

So like organizations like Ted think it's, it takes 18 minutes to converse something, to

get into your head, to get information into your head.

Um, it's a lot of the pastors and speakers that I'm working with in this season are like,

Hey, we were cutting our messages to 18 minutes and then a seven minute to move the head to

the heart.

And so it's like having that extra seven minutes for the invitation for the application.

You're, you're building off that concept even a little bit here with your message, because

you're saying, Hey, let's do that in group where together we're processing through that

and feeding off of each other.

Your 18 minute Ted talk, your informational message up at the front suddenly gets application

in real time through your after parties where they're starting to figure out as a group,

how to apply this stuff to their lives in, in real time.

Like I, I love that.

And that's, this is an example of, I mean, to your point, you can't do that, um, in, in

a physical church, or at least it's hard to do that, especially in a larger physical, physical

church, but a digital church has different rules.

And if we don't, uh, to borrow words from DJ Soto, VR church, the pastor, if we don't just

try to recreate what we're doing in physical space, and instead of we try to reimagine it

digitally, there's an opportunity for us to do far more effective things in the digital

world than in, than in physical, not to replace the physical, but to reach a different person

in a different way with that.

And, and I think what you're talking about here, Ray, is, is a great example of it.

You said earlier, um, that, that the church wasn't about the one hour on Sunday, by the

way, that was a hugely controversial statement pre COVID.

I think during COVID, I think we're understanding more of that now.

Uh, but pre COVID, like, I'm not saying I got yelled at, but it's, it was a lot of hard

conversations with, with not just pastors, church people, like, cause so much of it was

defined by that one hour on Sunday.

But you said it's not, it's not the service.

It's not even the broadcast of the service.

What is church in this season?

You're a digital church.

You planted a digital thing.

I'm asking you, how are you defining church today?

Yeah.

And, you know, and I hate to clarify because, but I, you know, clarify, I think for me, I

think for me, I'm a digital church right now with tentacles in a physical community.

Right.

So like our digital, sure.

We're a digital church, but our focus community is Berkeley, you know?

And I think I said, one of the things you sent, like, just be like, just because someone

wakes up someone day and says, Hey, I want to start a church.

I think if you're just going to, if you're just going to start a church with a microphone

and a video screen, you're missing out on what the church is, it's doing right.

It's hands and feet.

So I think that that's the beginning portion of that.

And then I also would just clarify to say, I think digital church, I think that there are

things in digital church that can help you to reimagine what's happening in physical church.

And I think that that's what I'm working on in my mind, which is how do I take what's

happening digitally and, and point that to a physical space.

And even if that's a smaller physical space, but multiple small, you know, so, so I would

say that for that.

But so then to your question about, sorry to go off on a tangent, but to your question then

about the church, right?

Like, so the question about, you know, what is the church?

You know, I've, I've said this for a while and I think stadia has helped me so much on

this, which is the one, like, I feel like the conversations around like you're one has

been probably the most defining one for me.

And it, and it led me to one of our vision things, right?

So our vision is one community, one family, one person at a time.

And so what I told our team was our one community right now is Berkeley.

We feel like right now God's calling us to Berkeley.

Our one family right now is the type of person God's calling us to.

So for us, it's unreached families, middle to upper class business leaders, and then also

church people who are, who we can activate to be the church that God's called us to be.

And then one person.

And so what I told them about one person, and this gets to your question about the church

is why are we here?

So I'm posing this question, but giving the answer, like, why are we really here?

And I think that there are things that people can say, multiple reasons of why we're here.

But I think the only reason why we're on this planet is to love God and to help and to love

and serve people so much that they experience God and then fall in love with him also, right?

So then in the midst of that, when I look at what the church is all about, it's about helping

people to utilize their influence to build God's kingdom.

And that does not help happen on Sunday, right?

Because every person that's listening in now or around our world, or every believer, let's

just say for right now, has 40 hours of weeks somewhere, right?

And so if God made them only to impact his kingdom in one hour space, which is the church,

building physical, we're missing it, right?

Because if you look at all the miracles that happened in scripture, most miracles happened

in the marketplace, right?

Most miracles.

And so I just think for me, when I even think about what we're doing online, it's one piece

of what we're doing, but it's more for awareness, you know?

And then you can't even really gauge church online right now anyway.

It's everything I feel like that's happening around it.

So like what church to us right now is three things.

We're doing city gatherings, city groups, and city cares.

So how we love and serve our community is church for us, because we have lost people who are

serving with us.

Like right now, I'm here at a podcast.

I've got one of my ones that went with our team to serve at the school to finish handing

out the bags.

So I think that it's the loving and caring.

I think it's the groups, right?

Like transformative relationships.

So for us, those transformative relationships are happening outside of our service, because

right now you can't have it digitally unless you utilize other tools.

So for us, pre-service, Zoom for, you know, 45 minutes before our service, and then our after

party for people who are not on our team that want to engage with us.

Like we feel like those conversations and relationships are for us what the church is, you know?

I, you know, I've encouraged our team.

So we have a leadership team of 20 people.

And I say, hey, throughout the week, I want you to go through and text and check in with

people on our launch team.

And I'm going to example, I'm going to show you how to do that.

So I do it for our leadership team.

So like today I was on my, you know, I think it was like an hour and a half walk.

And I literally tried to text through everyone on our team, not just the 20 members, but

everyone, and specifically spoke to what their needs were.

So what their things, you know, so not just sending a generic text, you know, but really

trying to reach out.

And so I just think the church is loving God and helping, you know, loving and serving people

so much that they fall in love with God also.

And so, yeah, I think the service though, you know, the thing that we've held up as being

the most important thing, trying to get hundreds of people into a building, which is not that

I don't want to do that.

But actual church, you know, may look a little bit different than that.

I think COVID helps us with that.

And so, you know, for me, I'm working on a model right now, which, you know, I need more

conversation around, but to where, you know, where maybe we are in small spaces around our city

that don't fit tons of people.

But we've got, you know, the other thing that we're looking at is my leadership team,

part of the church is activating them to lead, right?

And they're all great leaders.

And I think a lot of times in church, we just use people to accomplish what we want to accomplish

instead of empowering them to really lead.

And so what if, you know, we're always looking for a leadership pipeline.

I think I have a great leadership pipeline, I think, because I've got 20 leaders right

now who are on our leadership team and in our launch team who imagine if they were campus

pastors over a service, right?

And so each of our little services, let's say it's 50 member services, and they pastored

the 50 that are in that and got them to invite their friends.

And if we had three or four 50 member services, you know what I mean?

So we're just looking at, you know, so I'm going pre, like I'm still working this out in

my head, but the church is not just one service, you know, to your point.

I feel like, love, love, love that.

And by the way, like there's a misnomer and I want to speak to it a little bit.

And it's actually the thing that I love about your story, Ray, how are you utilizing a digital

church to impact the physical area?

You know, I think a lot of times a misconception, and maybe it's like the, it's the DJ Soto's

fault where, hey, I'm doing this VR church thing.

And I've got people from all over the globe coming in, as a matter of fact, he's got three

campuses on three different continents, Asia, Pacific, Europe, and America that is engaging

with hundreds of people in virtual reality doing discipleship with them.

And that's, that's awesome.

And we need more of that, but, but I love what you're specifically doing.

Cause you're like, dude, I want to use this technology to engage with people in my location.

Even things like, um, Patrick, uh, Patrick Holden, what Patrick's doing about how awesome.

I sat, I did a podcast a couple of weeks ago and I'm like, dude, do you want my job, Patrick?

Why don't you do my job?

Why don't you become Stadia director of digital church planning?

And I just want to learn from you in this situation because the stuff that he's doing with Facebook

messenger, connecting with people, cold calling and the results that he's getting, I've made

Patrick stories.

He's one of that, one of our fastest growing podcasts right now, because everybody I talked

to, I'm like, you got to listen to this because he's doing something that we all need to figure

out how to do effectively.

It's, it's a beautiful, beautiful thing, but it's what we're seeing as a digital church

interact physically and you're making a difference in physical where you're trying to love.

What I think I heard you say is that you, you want to love God so much through your church

that other people experience this physically.

And I think that is a great challenge for a, for a church like yours, whether digital or

physical to get through, to break through a consumerism mentality, whether it's a, through

a digital expression or a physical expression, just some guy that's in the board back row,

falling asleep, disconnected to get them to a place where they're loving God, where they're

so on mission for them that they're expressing this stuff out physically.

I just want to challenge you real quick with an idea because there's a church, it's a digital

church.

It's literally just spinning up.

It's existed for a while as a ministry of a church.

It's called Church Anywhere, First Capital Christian Church in Cordon, Indiana.

This one church, less than a thousand people, regular attendance, has spun up 18 micro locations

around their city.

They've discipled, they've grown leaders to be essentially the campus pastors.

And the areas where they're unleashing these, these micro locations, Huntington disease rehab

centers, prisons, orphanages, afterschool daycare centers.

These are not like people who are opening up their homes, although that's an awesome challenge.

But what they've intentionally said is we want to be very missional with our approach.

And so they, in addition to the thousand people who come in the building, when there was a building,

they see an additional 700 people engaging in these micro locations scattered around the

surrounding area, which, by the way, are chosen by the volunteers that are leading it.

They ask the questions of the volunteers, what areas are you passionate about?

And then unleashing them, either to playback video teaching, to do live teaching, maybe it's

live worship, maybe it's canned worship.

It's, it doesn't matter, but this is an example of, of a, and this is, they're spinning it off

into a completely separate digital church because they're recognizing that even the physical

church is, is a limitation, is a lid of it.

And so they're spinning it off separately to allow it to grow even more in this COVID and

post COVID season.

You've, you've got a huge opportunity because you've got a foundation and you understand digital

better than most.

You've got this huge potential to turn that and explode that into small viral locations

where you can impact the city of Berkeley, man, like never before.

And as you're utilizing that, that leadership pipeline, that discipleship pipeline, whatever

the language is, as you grow those people and empower them on, on mission, man, that's going

to be a really cool thing.

I think one of the exciting things about quarantine, right?

And in the midst of being under the cloud of COVID is that it challenges all of us to enter

into the mentality that you already have, right?

Is this innovation, right?

For most of us, it's just out of desperation of like this thing that we're used to doing

each week is now gone.

So we have to come up with something new.

What would you say, Ray, to, you know, you have opened your mind of saying, what is the

different ways and strategies and models that I can utilize for the same purpose of just

spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ?

What would you say to those that are struggling with letting go of what they're used to, of

maybe, maybe a little stuck in the way, the traditional way of church of how to enter

in to being excited about the opportunity for innovation?

Yeah, well, I think I would first say, because I've got friends who, who have churches and

buildings and staff and facilities and healthcare costs, you know, all of those things.

And I think, you know, and that's why I say, I think it's a great opportunity that we're

in right now.

And I feel like God's called us to it because, you know, we don't have all those things.

And I think, I think one of the things that's a hindrance in this season for some churches

is, is you're just trying to make sure you can pay your salaries.

And so my heart goes out to those churches, because that's, that's really hard and really

difficult.

And so I think that it's hard to be innovative when you've got those types of pressures that

are going.

But I also would say, I think that those are the moments you lean in even harder, right?

Like, I think there's a lot of great things that come out of faith.

And so I think it's, you know, so I think I would give encouragement first to just say,

man, God is still God.

God's not surprised, you know, like he's still on the throne.

And I think in the midst of our trials and difficulties, he tells us not to worry, right?

Like Matthew six, where he's saying, Hey, don't worry.

Like I've got it.

So I think to those pastors, it starts as, Hey, God's got it.

He's with you.

He knows what's going on.

He's not surprised.

But then I think the other side of it is, you know, allow, like knowing God makes new

things.

I feel like we, we think that God changes things and he does, but I think that God's a God who

makes new things.

And I think in this season, let's be honest, like insanity is doing the same thing over and

over again and getting the same results, right?

Like there's, there's many churches and Christianity in general in our nation, we've been doing church

the same exact way forever.

And we have had some adaptations, but it's really adaptations to style of music.

It's adaptation to how you preach is that adaptation to size of building or lighting, like those

types of things.

But to the core of like what church is, that's why you have some people that do home church,

right?

You know, and then you have some go mega and micro, like all those things.

But what about the actual, like what you're saying and the consideration of like what people

think?

Like, I just feel like God wants to do something new.

This is not a surprise to God.

And so I think it's just tapping into, man, like being okay with adapting, being, asking

the question of like, what are we doing right now that we've been doing that's not, hasn't

reaped the results that we want.

But I don't think everyone has a mind to innovate.

I think there's, you know, people have, you know, they want to, change is hard for anyone.

I think change is super hard.

And so I think it's, you know, getting in right circles.

I think it's talking with people, reading more, maybe, you know, I don't know.

I don't, I don't, I guess I don't know how to answer it because I, because I, I don't

sometimes like to change.

I just feel like I got a word, a specific word from God, which was be willing to adapt.

And I think that everything I do, I'm always thinking, adapting and then literally my prayer.

So on my list, it says, God helped me to innovate a new expression of the gospel.

I've been praying that for the last like two years.

And so, um, I don't, you know, I don't, I don't, I don't, people just need to spend

a little bit of time with you and it'll rub off.

No, I just, I just think it's just, man, be open to something new.

I think that that's the thing.

Like be open to, to it, not looking the same, be, start with, don't preach for 40 minutes.

I think, you know, I don't, I don't, it may sound bad.

Like, yeah, I think, you know, yeah, I think it's, I think it's the little things like change,

start with little things.

You know, I, that's what I'm saying.

I feel like there's so many, like, I don't know people's circumstance.

There's so many things that people are dealing with.

So I can't answer.

I think, you know, I, I, I, I'm the type of person where I'm like, I don't want to make

a blanket statement that affects thousands of pastors.

I would say in their area of influence that they're in, look at things that they can change

small, you know, I don't know.

Maybe that's a bad answer.

I'm sorry.

No, it's, it's, it's great.

Let me ask this.

Um, so, uh, I, I want you to talk to somebody that's currently planting and is overwhelmed

and overloaded and has no idea how to engage in this COVID season and is afraid of what

life is going to look like post COVID, or maybe even a guy that is thinking about planting,

is thinking about starting and doing something new, but it's not sure, um, what even church

looks like in this, in this new reality and what we're going to be walking into.

I want you to talk to them.

What would you tell them right now?

Yeah.

For someone that's new, I think, cause, cause this is a little bit easier for someone who's

new, who hasn't decided to plant yet plan.

Well, I think, um, I think in this season, um, you know, for us, like we, we had a, we

had a plan.

I had a plan that I felt like God gave me in the midst of adapting it.

So for someone who's wanting to plant right now, know that if you feel the call from God to

plant a church, don't rush it.

I would say number one, like there's no need to rush it.

Um, but know that if God's calling you to plant a church, he's not going to leave you

out and drive.

Like, that's kind of what we start with in our family is like, man, like God knew he's

called us now.

Um, but then on the opposite side, if you're, if you're really getting ready and you haven't

started yet, man, like what better time than now?

If you are ready, if you have, um, trained, if you've had, yeah, I think the experience is

good.

If you've got great mentors, if you have an organization that you're going through, like,

man, why not now?

Like God's, God's in it.

Um, if he's calling you to that, if you've been affirmed by, by organizations to go do

it, don't be fearful, um, because of what's going on right now.

Like God's called you for a reason.

If you stepped out of an executive role or if he stepped out of a church role to do this,

he's not surprised that you did that.

And so I just think that I would move forward.

I think for those who are already planting, um, who are wondering if they should shrink

back or not, I think, I think it's, I think it's a, I think it's a good question to ask

if you're not prepared, you know, if you have, if you don't have the funding for it, maybe

right now, if you haven't built the right, you know, your team, you know, but the, but

the opposite side of that would be don't shrink back.

I think that sometimes we are making decisions based off of fear.

Um, and, and it's really showing us where our faith is, you know, it's like, uh, when

Peter was on the water and, uh, you know, he asked Jesus, Hey, should I walk out?

Planting is like that, you know, go, that's crazy to walk on a, a, a, a C that's crazy,

but he walks out.

Um, and I think the decision to stop is because we're taking our eyes off of Jesus.

And so I think for the planters who are out there who are like, man, like, did I make

the wrong choice?

I mean, if God called you to something, um, it just may be that you have to adapt, adapt

what you're doing.

You know, it may look different.

Um, you know, but you know, so yeah, I think, I think we're in a season of it looking

different.

So I think you have to keep your eyes on Jesus.

You got to pray every day.

I know I started our, our cast with that, but literally I try to pray every morning at

the same time because I need my marching orders in order to live on purpose.

I need God to tell me, am I making the wrong choice?

Am I going the right direction?

What do I need to adapt?

What do I need to change?

And so I think, I think, I think, I think even back to the question of like churches

that need to do this, I think it's just asking the question of how do I adapt in

this season?

Like we just have to continue to adapt and not get comfortable.

I remember, you know, different churches I've worked for where I felt like, man, people

are just comfortable.

We're comfortable.

I remember even when I decided to plant, I, you know, for about a year, I felt like we

were comfortable.

Like, I remember just talking to our teams and saying, man, like, man, if we want people

to invite friends, we need to be doing that.

We need to be out at the coffee shops and we need, you know what I mean?

So it's just, I think it's just like allowing God to get you uncomfortable is not a bad

thing.

Well, it's clear, Ray, that you have not shrunk back.

You're stepping in and you're moving forward and you're innovating and, and we love partnering

with you and we love learning from you.

You are on the forefront of the innovation for the cause of the gospel and we love that.

So what does the future look like for your current digital church?

Where are you going?

What's the plan?

Yeah.

Well, I think number one, we will never have a service.

Like we will never, it's like for digital, we will never, we're live stream.

This is just us.

We will never live stream a in-person service for a digital context.

That's just us.

I feel like, I feel like in-person is completely different than, than digital.

And I just don't, I just don't feel like it works well if you're trying to reach both

people in-person and people online.

So for me, I know for us, Hey, we, we want to make sure that, you know, for us, it looks

like, Hey, we're going to have a digital campus.

So we're always going to have a digital campus of city center church.

Um, I think number two, you know, the future for us is I got to get approval from my management

team and different partners as I'm thinking through vision, but I'll give you a peek into

it.

So, so here's a peek into my vision with realizing that this is just thought right now.

And, um, yeah, no one's holding you to just a couple million people.

Listen, I don't, I, okay.

Number one, and I, and I did this with Emily.

I did a, a off the cup interview with a person.

And I've asked multiple now, non-Christian people in Berkeley.

Do you think church that we're going to be able to gather in large groups, even after

they release it?

And Emily, you were there.

What did she say?

Absolutely not.

Absolutely not.

Um, because one, it's the Bay area, then it's Berkeley.

And even in Berkeley, it's like, Hey, we, we are going to be, we're doing things how we

want to do it.

And because I love the city, cause I'm in it.

I want to, I want to make sure that I'm creating a church that my ones will show up to.

And they realize we don't want to just be your stereotypical church.

We want to rethink what church looks like.

And so what if there was a church, you know, mind you here, this is just my thought, but

imagine if I create, if we could create a church that there were, that only gathered

50 to 60 people.

Now, this is just random thinking, but 50 to 60 people, um, and our, our desires would

be at the city centers of different communities.

And we want to create city center hubs.

That's kind of the, was the future vision.

Um, but in our area, every, every building is small, right?

So Berkeley, you've got small shops.

So what if we could create a church that meets in like a storefront fits, you know, maybe

could fit a hundred people, but for social distancing reasons, we do 50 people, um, that show up to

it.

And we just have multiple services in different parts of our city at storefront areas.

Um, what if we could do that?

And what if it, it wasn't for, you know, 20 minute worship set and, um, some announcements.

And then the guy preaches at you for 30 minutes and then you do, um, worship at the end.

But what if it was really an environment that facilitated conversation over a normal service?

Um, you know, I think for me that, you know, that's what we're looking at.

And so what if it was, you know, maybe it's, it's a, almost like a party in the beginning.

We're all just hanging out.

It's a social, it's almost like a family gathering a little bit.

You can invite your friends to it.

Hey, we're going to have food.

Um, we're going to hang out here for a little bit.

And then there's going to be this guy who's going to talk a little bit about a truth that

we believe is applicable to your life.

And we want to answer the question every week.

How does Jesus help in the midst of what we're going through?

Like does, is Jesus applicable for our daily life and have a short conversation about that

and then move into groups, um, where people can, in a group of three to four or five, engage

around this topic.

Um, and what if there was a church that looked like that in it?

And because I like multi-site, you know, what if it became a model where, you know, during

the week though, the partner, we're partnering with some type of organization or we become,

you know, like a leaser and we've got different community resources and or businesses that are,

that use our space through the week, which it could be sustainable because it's a smaller

space.

Um, and they're really paying enough for the lease.

And then we're just, we just happen to be a gathering of people, you know, Sunday night

or Saturday morning, you know?

So I don't know, I'm rambling, but that's, we're working through that type of a thought

of church.

And we just have multiple of those little hubs around our community.

And it's led by our leadership team over me, except for I'm speaking.

So you've got all these ideas, your entrepreneurial ideas, and your wife's telling you, stop thinking

that way.

She is actually.

Yeah.

So get your wife on here.

We need to, we need to cut that out.

Cause I mean, what you're selling here, more people need to buy, um, conversational approach,

never stream a live service for a digital audience.

Like these are radical concepts that shoot.

I'm not even crazy enough to talk that way now.

And, and, and I, I'm the guy who's been talking crazy for 20 years and, and finally now the world's

catching up in COVID, but you're, you're, you're a couple of years ahead, uh, which is awesome.

It means that you're going to get people that are going to tell you, no, uh, it doesn't

work that way.

And then you're going to prove them wrong.

And you're going to, you're going to be able to celebrate some stories of what's happening.

And slowly people are going to start look at you as a church planner and realize, hey,

wait, there's some validity here to the way this is happening.

What if we did something similar, you know?

And so it's, it's, we're, we use this language.

We just did a podcast on this and, and I made a mistake.

And this is funny.

I reached out to a, uh, uh, crossroads in Cincinnati.

It's a, uh, a giga church, huge 20,000 plus church up there.

And I reached out to the pastor of technology and I was like, Hey, come on a podcast.

I want to talk about how we get back to the building.

Um, and, and I'm the cutting edge guy.

He's the director of technology and Matt Welty.

And he's like, Jeff, your, your approach far from the get go is completely wrong.

Um, we're not going back to the building.

We're implementing physical locations on our new founded digital strategy that's mapping

out towards the future.

And I was like, oh, you're right.

All the preconceived norms are, are off the table.

And so the way that you're re-imagining this, even as you're starting it, others need to

do that as well.

And the more that radical ideas, like some of the stuff you just kind of threw away, uh,

it's like, Hey, these are some things that we're thinking about.

Like, my gosh, I could talk about that for another hour.

Just digging some of it, some of that apart.

Just don't tell my wife that I'm on this podcast.

Well, evidently, like I need, I need to like do some intervention here.

We need Emily to do some like counseling.

We need to encourage this to do more.

This is awesome.

Hey, so this has been a great podcast, Ray.

I am so excited.

Uh, just even what I'm hearing here, uh, with, with the, with the church and how you are looking

at it, you've rushed into the fire.

You're looking at it with fresh eyes, um, and being, um, re-imaginative instead of recreative,

uh, in this season.

So well done, sir.

Well done in this.

Emily, as we're landing the plane here, any closing thoughts?

We just love partnering with you, Ray, as from Stadia's perspective, it's so fun to get

to come alongside to support you.

Also just to learn from you and your innovation and your ideas and be able to, uh, bless up,

right.

And share those with other church planters who are alongside of you planting churches and

who are coming behind you as well.

So we are, we are for you and we are praying for a city center church there in Berkeley.

That's awesome.

I'm, I'm, I'm so excited about what, um, what I've been hearing here.

This is awesome.

Right.

This has happened yet.

Right.

So just to clarify, this is all thought.

So we are encouraging thoughts and if you've, and we're praying for it, for the thought to

be caught by God, that it's part of him.

And, and, and as you're discipling, he is bringing people into your, your path to help that, that

thought become execution.

Yeah.

Hey, funds is always great.

You know, anyone here is something they like, you know, with city center.com, you know,

it wouldn't be a church planting podcast without a financial app.

There you go.

Help me innovate a way to do church.

No.

Awesome.

Hey, so besides the, the plea for money from Ray, Ray, any closing thoughts?

I swore a hand in the plan here.

Yeah, no, I, I just think, man, like we just can't, we can't just think things are going

to go back to normal.

And so I just think if we, if we, if we're thinking that way, that doesn't mean that we

have to change all of our, our, all our, our, our ideas or our strategies, but I do think

we just, we can't think, you know, and I think the good thing for me is I'm not going back

to normal.

I'm starting.

So for me, it's a little bit easier because I'm starting something.

And I think for those who have been going for a while, you know, you just have to think

things can't go exact.

They're not going to go exactly back to the way they were.

And so why not ask God for something crazy new, you know, for their areas?

So, and we can all do it.

It's fun.

Come on.

What, what bet?

Like we are the church.

Do we not serve an innovative God?

Does he not, is he not powerful?

Is he not extreme in thought?

If that's so, then we shouldn't just be doing stuff the same old way.

Like he doesn't do things the same way.

He's a new God.

He does fresh things.

He's consistent, right?

He's the same guy as he was yesterday, but he is a, he does new things.

So new, new wine skins.

Well, well, well said.

Well done there.

Very good.

Hey, so Ray, if people like, uh, want to follow up with you, if they've got, you've got

questions, if they're interested in the church and what you're doing, how can people get

in touch with you or find out more about the church?

So my email is Raymond at our city center.com.

Raymond at our city center.com.

We can start there.

Awesome.

Sounds great.

Hey, so Ray, thanks for jumping on this.

Emily, thanks for, for co-hosting and helping the conversation for, for Ray and Emily.

This is, uh, Jeff at the church digital and stadia church planning.

Uh, thanks for joining us and we'll see you next time here at the podcast.

Y'all have a good day.