EP080: Angela Craig & Planting a Digital-Only Church on Facebook

Episode 80 of the Church Digital Podcast, powered, once again, powered by Stadia Church Planning.

Jeff here, we've got a great episode, but before we get there,

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Dive into it.

All right.

Here we are with this episode.

And this one, it's close to home.

I loved seeing this happen.

We're bringing in Angela Craig to the conversation.

Now, pre-COVID, Angela Craig wasn't even on my radar.

And I said that on the show and I'm a little embarrassed once I kind of heard who she was that I didn't know about her.

Because Angela, for the past three years, has been running a digital-only church on Facebook.

Yeah, it's Pursuit Church Live.

And as a matter of fact, it was like the first social media church of the Assemblies of God denomination.

I don't know if there's a lot of other social media churches or if the Assemblies of God denomination is doing more, but that's her deal.

It's the first Assemblies of God church on social media.

And so she's been doing it for three years.

Some fascinating stories.

She's hitting 43 countries, 45 languages.

And so it's really, really interesting how she's been able to not only get this huge reach, but by utilizing the Facebook platform, she's getting some really solid engagement.

And where it's getting into this relational approach that we talk about so much with church online, and even now with this digital-only expression of church.

Now, some of you out there are saying right now, wait, digital-only as in not in the physical space?

Yeah, that was really controversial pre-COVID.

We're all doing it.

Maybe as we go back to the buildings, there's going to be this mix, this hybrid, this digital approach of physical and digital.

But I love pioneers like what we see out of Angela here, who even three years ago were pushing all in on this idea of digital-only.

And through Stadia, we are looking to launch more of these digital-only churches.

So as some of you guys are listening to this and you're saying, hey, this is a really interesting idea.

Hey, I might be interested in doing something like that.

I want to hear from you.

So do me a favor.

Let's reach out.

Let's connect.

Jeff at thechurch.digital.

Check out the show notes and the podcast.

There's a ton of different ways to get in touch with me.

But at the end of the day, we, Stadia, want to help people like Angela figure this out.

God bless Angela.

Three years ago, she didn't have the help.

She didn't have the guidance.

We want to be the guidance at Stadia.

So if you're interested, let's have that conversation.

Angela, hats off to the lady here for following her calling, for doing the thing when the rest

of the world thought she was crazy, and for being able to sit back and watch how her faithfulness

has reaped rewards as a result of it.

God, thank you for doing something through this ministry of Pursuit Church Live that Angela's

created here on Facebook.

So here we are in the conversation for Angela's story.

That's not the name of the podcast.

I think that's the name of a movie, right?

Is that a movie?

No.

All right.

So here we're bringing it into the conversation.

Angela Craig, lead pastor, Pursuit Church Live.

Myself, Jeff with the Church Digital and director of digital church planting for Stadia Church

Planting in a conversation that I'm calling Planning a Digital Church on Social Media.

Okay, everybody, here you go.

Officially, my title was ordained minister with the Assembly of God, and I became an ordained

minister probably 11 years ago.

I was working for Northwest Ministry Network, which is basically, if you are familiar with

Assembly of God, they are a training office for, I'm in the state of Washington, and so we

have 320 churches, Assembly of God churches, and so we're responsible for training, equipping,

strengthening, encouraging pastors and leaders of those churches.

So I did that for 10 years, and I actually started Facebook groups with credentialed women about

six years ago, and that is how I, that was kind of the start of digital ministry for me.

So you started the Facebook and was doing the groups with that, and so how did that lead?

So you're doing Facebook groups, but now with Pursuit Church Live, you're doing like a more

tangible church, like maybe describe how you started with the church.

Yeah, so as a director at the Northwest Ministry Network, I was, think of me like as a leadership

coach and encourager, and so these Facebook groups I started for women who knew they were

called to ministry, but didn't know how to get started.

But what I found out in that experiment was that about 40% of the women who were coming into

the groups through Facebook didn't have a church that they would call their home church, and

I love people, and I'm always wanting to include everybody, and I saw this whole category of

people who wouldn't go to church or couldn't go to church or didn't have a church, but really

wanted to know Jesus, were interested in exploring faith, interested in exploring purpose, and wanted

to be a part of this group, and so strangers became friends with authentic relationship, and

we were able to disciple every day, not just on Sundays for half an hour.

At the same time, I was also working and volunteering in my own local church and felt the frustration

of seeing people leave, seeing people not be able to attend, and wondering like how, that was the

biggest question we were asking at our church, and I think most churches, how do we get people

to come to church?

And so we had to figure out how to bring church to them, and I really see that modeled in the

life of Jesus.

He went to people, and he went where the people were, and this was kind of my light bulb,

aha, is the people are on Facebook.

So that's how we started.

In 2017, I asked our superintendent of our network, who was in charge of church planting

at the time, I said, I want to try this digital-only church, and he said, go for it.

Now, that took, in June of 2017, it took until May to actually be approved as the first social

media church of assembly of God by the national office, because, you know, how do you, there's no

walls, how do you count people? There's all these, all these things that happen when you do digital

church. So that's how we got started, 2017.

That's awesome. So the first assemblies of God social media church. So, I mean, there's a couple

questions, even with that statement, and I want the audience to understand, like, what a digital

church is in this context. So you mentioned 10,000 people, Facebook only running that platform,

seeing the algorithms, reaching 45 countries, international reach very quickly in the grand

scheme of things. What are the offerings, not money standpoint, as much as, like, what does a

physical church do? What does it look like? Services, groups, like, what's the life of a digital church

there with Pursuit Church Live?

Well, that has actually morphed over time, and one of the big things I tell people about digital

ministry is that you have to get outside the church box. So working in a church, I had ideas about what

church looked like, but people online that don't know Jesus or have left church don't necessarily need

online church to look like church. What they need is someone to really get to know them.

So what we do, you might look online and be like, well, what are they doing exactly? We're making Jesus

a center of social media. That's the hook. Like, we're tailoring it to things that are relevant to

people today. So we have to adapt. Before COVID, we were adapting, meaning we would change what we were

doing about every four to six weeks. And that we've tried a sermon series like a regular church in the

past. And that was effective, but not as effective as what we're doing now. So during COVID, we'll change in

24 hours, depending on what people are needing. Like, you have to be really in touch with your demographic

of what they're needing in the moment, and then address those things. And that's the great thing

about being on social media, is that you can follow, okay, God, what do your people need to know you

now? What can we do to introduce them to faith, and then to build them in their faith? And so being online,

we can build community, we can disciple, and we can care for people much more than what it looks like

if you were just to go to Proceed Church Live on Facebook and look at the outside. There's a whole

lot more going on behind the scenes of how we do that. Yeah. And you guys, like all the community,

all that for you is centered on that Facebook platform. That's what you're using pretty much

exclusively to really do the ministry. Well, and financially, it's free.

Can't beat that. No, you can't beat that. It's great. It's a good financial model.

What was the AOG's kind of response? How difficult was it at the denominational level

to maybe rattle some cages? Because like, the idea of a social media in itself is controversial

individually, working with a denomination like AOG probably provided some challenges as well.

So like, what was that conversation like as you're trying to figure out

how to do a social media church to get some of that approval and help from organizations?

That's a good question. I think for me, I just moved forward as without the approval of the national

office. I figured if they were going to approve it, great. But when God calls you, you have to be

obedient, right? And so I figured I'm doing this. And if they don't approve me, I'm still doing this.

If they do approve me, I'm still doing this. And so eventually they, with the advocacy of my network

and my superintendent, who was a big fan of this idea, because he is all about reaching everyone

for Jesus without boundaries. He doesn't have mental boundaries about it. So at the time he was

like, let's plant churches in, you know, if you work at Boeing or at Microsoft, let's plant churches

in the lunchroom. So let's have small groups. And so he was all about reaching people where you could

reach them or where your influence was. So he was a huge advocate for me and our church structure.

And so, and also AG is a huge mission organization. And so I think in the end, they saw this as

church, our church, Pursuit Church Live, as a mission organization, because we were able

to reach into every corner of the world through social media. And, and so that's how we got approved.

But the other part is like, what is a social media church? So social media, Facebook, you know,

obviously you've, you've, you've got the networks. What, what, how, how are you using those networks?

What, what does it look like? And even what makes you a church, quote unquote, on these social media

networks?

That's a great question. When we started, we tried everything. So we tried streaming, we tried

YouTube, we tried Instagram, WhatsApp. I developed, I learned how to develop an app. Like I created an

app. If you've seen Church Home, their app, that's my dream app. But also to have a good amount of money

to do that. If you haven't, check it out because it's, it's a great, it's a great tool to put Jesus

in people's hands every day. And so what I found was then we couldn't really do anything well because

we were so diverse. And we, and also when we were streaming to our website, which many churches still

do, all the traffic was coming from Facebook. So when you look at Facebook has 2.6 billion people

a month. And right now they're spending about a little under an hour, I think 58 minutes or something

a day. And I couldn't pass up that opportunity. And so we had enough traffic. We were in 45 countries

and 43 languages after the first year that that was plenty of people to disciple. So we could have gone

wider, but we wanted to go deeper. We wanted our roots to go deeper. And so we decided that that

was going to be our platform, Facebook. And we do dabble in other things, but that is where we train

leaders. Like on Instagram, I have a leader who we're training and she's, she's an up and coming

20 something who is doing live video and learning how to disciple online through that,

through that opportunity on Instagram. But, but Facebook is our main platform.

Now I'm going to back up a little bit because you just surprised me. One year in 45 countries,

43 languages. Unpack that. Cause we, we talk about how, you know, physical, their strengths,

digital, their strengths, their strengths and weaknesses with the both within a year,

you're essentially hitting 45 nations and, and 43 languages. Ain't no way you're doing that

in the physical space. So, so tell me what that looks like digitally.

Surprising. Since I didn't know anything about Facebook algorithms, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't

know anything. All I knew is that God was calling me to reach people that were spiritually homeless,

people that didn't have a place they could call their home, people that needed to be seen. And

people are on Facebook on social media to be seen. And we all know that. And so, um, and I love to make

people know their lives matter. And so I didn't know that it would be like that 10,000 people and 45

countries and 43 languages. And that's really small actually in the big picture. Um, but that was all

due to Facebook algorithms for free. I didn't do any promoting. And, and so that's, there is power in,

in, for the local church, for the, the digital minister who wants to plant just a digital only

church, uh, which I hope more people will do. There's so much potential, untapped potential in

what we can do reaching every corner, uh, for, for Jesus. And it just makes the Bible come alive.

When those words, you read those words on the page of, of scripture saying that we should go

to every corner of the world. So, um, when you do digital ministry, I think your eyes are open to

the bigger picture of how you can reach so many people. So you've been doing this three years,

you started 2017. So like three years, bad math, probably 18, 19, 20, right? Somewhere close to

three years now. Three years, this, actually this month. Awesome. So, I mean, three years in,

there's gotta be some great stories. Um, like tell us some examples,

tell us some, some stories of, of, of life change or what's coming out of Pursuit Church Life.

So I do, I have more stories than we have time for, which is just amazing. And I remember the first

time I realized how important Pursuit Church Life could be was the September after we had started.

So we were just a couple of months in, I had no idea what we were doing. We were just dabbling in

everything. My husband and I, and our youngest son went on a, on a camping trip for my birthday and we did a

kayaking trip. And on this trip, we met a woman named Debbie and she'd been living in this kind of rural

area. Uh, no churches, no community. She was taking care of a friend who was disabled and she'd been there

18 months without any community outside this friend. And so we got talking, you know, in this four hour

journey, uh, uh, just about her life, where she was from. And, and she asked what I did. And I told

her that I had just started this, um, this online church. And, um, at the end I asked if I could pray

with her, if I, if I could give her my car, you know, my phone number and, and I would love to get

her connected to our community at the time. I was like, cause you could do it on Facebook. And it was,

um, in that moment I realized if I was pastoring a local church in the Seattle area where I'm from,

she never could have attended that church. And there wasn't a church in the little town that

she was in. Uh, and so this, my eyes were really opened like to the power of this. Well,

fast forward, Debbie, um, not long after that, I followed up with a text and she started coming to

pursue church life, attending online. And then we did a lot of talking. She joined one of our groups

and, uh, she gave her life to Christ. And then she moved, when she moved home, now she's serving

in her local church. So that's the other piece of this is so often people are, uh, disenfranchised

from the church for some reason. And then they come into this very safe and authentic online community

and then are planted back in, in person community. And so I just heard from Debbie, I don't know,

maybe six weeks ago, just about the stuff that she's doing in her local church and how her, I mean,

her life has drastically changed. I was like, wow. Okay. This is the power of it. That's just one,

one story. Um, globally, I never would have thought when I started this, that we would have a worship

leader who I would never meet going live on Facebook to lead worship from Uganda. I mean,

that was not in my mind that was in God's mind, but that was not in my mind. And so to be able to

build bridges with other, um, countries and, uh, people of different social and economical backgrounds

and, and race and gender and, uh, age or disability. I mean, it's just bringing this global community of

people together to follow Christ is, is like, is so powerful, uh, and, and so rewarding that those are

the things that make you stay with it because you know, it's God's plan to do this. Um, and then the last

story I'm going to tell you as about one of our team leaders, Dee, and she's a amazing human being.

She lives in Colorado and I met her online. Um, I did kind of this, usually when you church plant,

you recruit a team first, but since I didn't digital ministry churches were not around when I did this,

I did it backwards. So I basically started and then did my recruiting by identifying people online who

were engaged, who, um, who had said they were all in at Pursuit Church Live. And Dee was one of those

people. And, and, uh, she has MS, can't leave her home, uh, can't attend her local church. And she's,

uh, within a few months was leading our E team. And she's just an absolute fabulous encourager of

encouragers. And now she, we're starting a school, um, well, a ministry school in partnership with

Northwest University, where I teach here in the Kirkland area. And, uh, and so she's going to go

and get another degree. She's already got three degrees, but she's going to get a ministry degree

and become a credentialed minister. And she's starting an online, uh, micro community through

Pursuit Church Live, which is something we're doing now. And so that in, you know, three years,

that's incredible to me, like the potential of what we could do, uh, especially when we're partnered

together, like, um, especially with like you, knowing you, Jeff, I mean, that's just makes it so

much easier when we do it together. So you're, you're getting into, uh, a school. You, so you're a

teacher and you're connecting, so you're providing online education. Uh, you've got, uh, somebody who's

launching a micro location out of your digital only, like you're seeing a lot of opportunities for

greater understanding, development, leadership, pipeline. Um, you know, even to person, we talk a

lot in the show about online to offline, the gospel we learn in the online world. It has to affect our

offline relationships and what you're describing with Dede, where now she's, excuse me, D of where

she's going. And now she's creating a watch party, a micro location, like a house church type of thing.

That's awesome. Was that in the roadmap? Was that her idea? Was that something you've

organizationally wanted to do? What's kind of the genesis of the micro location?

Well, I don't know how God talks to you, but I remember before we start the spring, before we

planted Pursuit Church Live and I was standing in the kitchen in front of the microwave,

probably making another cup of coffee. Anybody who likes coffee. And I just heard God say,

you know, Pursuit Paris, Pursuit Seattle, Pursuit. And he was just naming off places

in the world. I was like, okay, God, whatever you go right for it. I just want to do this one thing

right here and see what happens. And so this is the year that now we're actually,

we have our feet underneath us. And so we're moving forward. And the groups that I thought

he was showing me were in person. And the three groups we have starting are all online digital

churches, small, well, I don't know that they'll be small, but they're, they're,

there'll be micro groups through, through Pursuit Church Live. Two of them are topical,

like they're addressing a specific demographic. So D, her demographic, her group is moving mountains.

And she wants to talk to people that have any kind of disability or people with chronic illness

groups and help them to know faith and to walk, you know, to, to grow in their faith.

Gary, he already has an in-person group of people that are part of a retirement community. But then

when everything went online, he started doing online for his church and realized how many people were

left out because they were online, but they're very isolated and alone. And so now he's starting a

micro community for people of mature age, we like to call it. And, and so he's going to do that. And

then Nadine and her husband, Roger, they are, they feel called to their local town in Pueblo,

Colorado. And so they're starting kind of a, I love Pueblo Facebook group to resource people in areas

of drug addiction and gang related activity and homelessness. And so that we're just going,

where the need is really. And I think that's important to be really adaptable and flexible

as far as digital ministry is concerned. We need everybody in it.

You know, and what, what I love here is you're empowering other people to do ministry. You're

doing, you're empowering these people in Pueblo, Colorado and, and others to, to, to do ministry.

It's, it's not watch this and process this content. It's, let me give you the tools. Let me give you

the opportunity to reach your circle of influence, whether in Pueblo, Colorado or, or anywhere, or

even, I would imagine even utilizing the Facebook platform as well. From a technical standpoint,

I don't want to die here, but it's, it's a really smart platform to use because you're able to get

people's profile information out of Facebook so easy as opposed to broadcasting services on,

on CHOP or church online platform or things like this, where you'll get tens of thousands of people

viewing, but only a couple of people are actually filling out the connection cards. Facebook gives

you that information more readily available. So that's, that's awesome.

Yeah. I was just going to say things that are behind the scene with that is how I can message

anybody who likes a post. And I spent a lot of time doing that. And so if you're doing digital

ministry, if that's not your strength, like for instance, streaming really professional, I won't

say excellent, but professional content was not my thing. Like I'm not, I'm not a camera person. I'm not

a tech person, although I've become definitely more techie, but I am more of a relational person. And so

for me, just being able to know people that God sees them that, and that starts with us as Christians

seeing people, um, that's where it started. So the whole, yeah, Facebook and being able to reach out

to people is really, really important. I love the fact that you just said you, you reply via Facebook

Messenger when people like posts. To me, it's like, if we're going to, if we're going to say something on

social media and if people like it, that's like the invitation to start the conversation. That's not

the end game. That's not, Hey, I got 187 likes on this post. What'd you do with that? Like, how is

that helping getting, building that relationship, engage and have some conversations? We've talked with

several, uh, people lately. Patrick's a church planner, um, in Columbus, Ohio and Patrick, it doesn't even

live in Columbus. And he's using Facebook Messenger and Facebook groups to connect with people

that he doesn't even know. And basically start to talk to him about being as on part of his core team.

And basically through like Facebook Messenger, he's recruited 40 to 50 leaders in Columbus when

he doesn't even live in the state. He's doing it all interstate. I think he's in Michigan.

And so incredible opportunities to reach and build relationships digitally.

That's really encouraging. And honestly, I've never met, well, until we had our first

in-person Pursuit Church Live gathering this past October, I had not met any of my team except for

two. And I had at the time, I don't know, 44 people. So that it does change the way you look at

building teams. I also would encourage people not, I mean, to think outside the box, as far as

during the summer, I had two, my first summer had two interns that had not gone to church growing up,

had never read the Bible. And they interned in my office and, and both of them, um, gave their life

to Christ and now are doing young life or, you know, and one's going to college this year and the other

one is going to be a senior in college. I just remember sitting like right here where my desk is,

one of them sitting across from me and I'm having her make graphics, uh, and find Bible verses on the

topics we were doing. And, and, and she pulled up some really great scriptures. I'm like, who taught you

the Bible? And she said, well, you did, you taught me the Bible. And I was like, this was two weeks in,

I taught her, all I did was teach her how to find answers in the Bible. And I was like, okay,

when I worked in, at a church building, I never did this much discipleship. I spent 90% of my time

working on the program. And then an hour on Sundays, talking to people in the lobby,

an hour on Wednesdays leading women's Bible study. It, there is no comparison. There's absolutely no

comparison. And I'm not saying that you can't do, uh, 90% of stuff that is not discipleship online.

You absolutely can. And I'm trying to help pastors now, uh, realize that we need to invest our time

wisely if the world is going to know Jesus. And that's not always going to be in, you know,

just these incredible flashy videos, um, and, and excellent content. I mean, I love excellent

content. I love professional looking content. I love all of that, but people honestly just want

to know that you care about them. So true. And the, the challenge though, with Facebook and like,

I'll just, I'll put on my detractor hat because I've had this conversation enough in my life.

Yeah. Jeff, you don't know these people, like the fact that you have 44 leaders and you had only met

two of them, but you considered them a leader and was engaging and was involved in their, in their

lives. You mentioned the words authentic community. I don't know, maybe 10 minutes ago, like in some

people's minds, you cannot do authentic community in digital space, in digital community, all the

authentic stuff that happens in the physical building. Digital community is shallow. Have you ever hung

out on Twitter, Facebook? Like people are abandoning, uh, because of all the, the, the cultural tensions

in life. And somehow in the midst of, of this social media distaste, uh, you've managed to carve out

relational ministry, authentic relationships, uh, empowering others to, to reach out via these same

networks. Like what were the challenges? How, how did you overcome that? How, how, some of these people

that, that are questioning this, how, how would you respond to that?

Well, I, I think I, I have a calling I have to follow. And if people don't understand, I, I want

to invite them in if they were to join our team and, and to be able to see like how we talk to each

other throughout the day. We Marco Polo each other. We, uh, if anybody doesn't know what that is, it's,

I love it because you can record a video anytime and then you can watch it. So it's not like sending up a

zoom. So we created all these ways to keep in touch with each other. Um, but really the nice thing about

social media is that it's much more vulnerable than in person because you have kind of this anonymity

and you can always run away if you get embarrassed. And so when you have that vulnerability with other

people, that's what's the, the kickstart to authentic relationships. So you're vulnerable

and you share, and then, um, and then you see that people can be trusted with your life and with your

thoughts and honoring and respectful and, and that you have their confidence and, and you can see

people's heart for God in, in their words and in their videos. It's, it builds relationship much

faster than in person. I have built relationships in the three years, much faster than I ever did working

at my network position for 10 because we worked, you know, and we were close, you know, I thought,

but not like, not like this, not, not in the same way because you don't spend as much time together.

Even when you're working in the same office, you know, you're behind a closed door or you only meet

for a meeting. Uh, but this is sharing life together online. And I think that's what social media does is,

is to, um, build community that way. That's the goal of it to build meaningful community.

And so we have the same goal. Yeah. You know, I use the phrase, uh, in online and social media,

it's better to ask questions than make statements and the vulnerability piece. I mean, that's even a

one up on that. It's, um, be vulnerable and allow others, uh, to dialogue to you and maybe even through

you. And as a result of that, you know, understanding comes into play in a, in a greater way. And that's

where, that's where I think true conversations come in and online instead of us, you know, shouting at

each other, um, listening to each other and through the, through the vulnerability, through the

patients, um, getting into true conversation. That's, that's awesome. Well, and that's one way you've,

you've overcome some obstacles of, of trying to figure out what have been some of the challenges

you've had to work through and doing probably one of the first digital churches in America.

Well, and I'm all, I'm always asking people, Hey, if you had a digital church, please tell me,

cause I want to know you going first isn't always the easiest, but I'm super glad that I did the

obstacle. The biggest, the biggest gift is Facebook. The biggest obstacle is Facebook. And the reason why

is because their algorithms, they're constantly doing improvements. Uh, you have to really, uh,

have a fluid personality of being able to go with the flow as far as working in Facebook.

So the biggest gift, like I said, they have two, over 2.6 billion people coming every, uh, every

month. Um, but then, you know, if, if you've been doing online and maybe with your church or as a

volunteer or as an online pastor, you know, like Easter for our churches, all the churches across the

board were like, wow, we just had, you know, 5,000 people and we had, you know, 120 comments. And,

and then, you know, two weeks later, I just had 12 people and one comment.

I'm quitting. And I, I've been through it enough that I know that it will change as fast as,

you know, your ups and downs. It's very much like that, but I have to keep my mind focused on the

mission of who we are reaching. And just because it goes down, I'm, I still have a lot of people

that I can invest time in. And so do you, even on, if someone's listening, you just have a personal

platform. You have a lot of people you can invest time in. And sometimes that's the hardest part,

you know, is to keep your mental toughness and your adaptability skills as a leader, uh, to understand

that we can just wait a little while, um, and keep making Jesus the center of social media,

and then it will change. So for instance, since Easter, our numbers have been way down and we had

to really make a difference. So let's say two weeks ago, I was doing videos, uh, that had 12 views.

And then this week, all of a sudden we have 72,000 people walk, watching a three minute prayer video.

And you're like, what just happened here? The Facebook, you know, opened up God bless Facebook,

let everybody in. Uh, but that's, that just happens. And, and so the, the, the 12 people are important and the

72,000 people are important. And, and so I don't use that as a gauge of success because there's

always somebody that we can be, uh, discipling someone we could be caring for and someone we

can be building community with. So, um, through, you know, all the means that Facebook gives us.

Yeah. It's, it's interesting even, and I think you'll appreciate this. Do you, do you read

Kerry Newhoff or listen to a bunch of his stuff? Yeah. Maybe a month ago, uh, May, he was doing

a, um, it was an analog versus digital comparison. And so it was one of his articles. He had like

seven or 10 kind of falling under one column was analog. And it was like the old way of thinking

the old paradigm. And then the digital was the new way of thinking the new paradigm. And so he had

buzzwords kind of underneath there and all of them were good. Um, but like one of the last ones in,

in his gathering under analog was, was the word global and under digital was the word local

and pastors kind of reached out and put them in Facebook group, the article on Facebook groups.

And they were questioning and even some of the cohorts and trainings that I'm doing. They're

like, Jeff, that's wrong. That's a typo. You got it backwards. We're much more global now before

because the internet reach is, is so global. And I was like, no, you're missing the point of,

of what Carrie's saying. It's, it's, it's, it's a local, it's an individual ministry now with,

with online and the ability for us to empower people, to mobilize people, to reach their

local areas, their local circle of influence, the people that are immediately connected to them.

It's not, Hey, and I love the fact that you're 2017 reaching 45 countries. That's, that's awesome.

I'm more excited about the individuals that you are now unleashing in different areas, um, in Colorado

and other places, because there's an opportunity to multiply off of that in a great way. And so whether

it's the, whether it's the 12 or the 72, you get 72,000, you get to this place of, man, if we can,

if we can keep building those individual relationships now to multiply. I mean, that's really, I think,

where you see the gospel start to create a movement, um, physically or even digitally, uh, in the season.

So that's awesome. Do you have any idea why the video was 72,000? I'm just putting on my technical

hat. Sorry. That's a really stark, like distant difference between 12 and 72 K.

Well, it wasn't quite 12. It's probably more like 12,000, probably 12 people that watched live.

Okay.

And then 12,000 people over. And then, but this was literally 72,000 that watched live.

So that's what I'm saying. I have over three years tried to find the answers to that,

trying to change around, like, was it a donate button or was it the time of day or was it the

length of video or was it that we had captions or was it what I was wearing or the way my hair was or,

or, you know, what caught their attention behind me or, or for the other, I'm not the only person

that speaks at that's one thing I'm big about is just having a lot of different people. But really,

I think a lot of it does just have to do with what Facebook is doing at the time. I know that

they were heavily promoting churches on Easter and on Christmas, Christmas Eve, uh, any kind of

religious holiday, they will promote churches. I know that. Um, and that's probably why we saw such a,

a large uptake.

So talk to me about what's next for, for Pursuit Church. Where, where are you guys going? Where,

where does this look like? Where is the digital only church here? Where is it growing to?

I think I mentioned quite a few of these things before, but we are starting, I work at Northwest

University and Northwest University has an online school. And so we're doing partnership to bring

education to the world. And so we're offering, uh, two associates degrees and, uh, six bachelor degrees

online through Pursuit. And so the biggest thing that we get requests for is education because of the

demographics we serve. And this is a very small drop in that bucket of helping people to make education

affordable and also to train up ministers. So basically the structure will be, uh, that they'll

go to school online and then have an academic coach and do an apprenticeship through, uh, our church or

through their local church or through depending on what their degree is. That's the great thing about

digital is you can plug a lot more people in because we have more categories and then, than just

children, youth, uh, women or men. And so that's, that's a big thing. We're, we're working on our,

what we call the digital plus, um, planting church planting where we're creating these micro communities.

And so we're testing that. And then of course, uh, online Jesus, because I was a coach for,

for pastors before, I'm still incredibly passionate about that. And so helping churches to, uh, build

community and disciple and care online and, and, you know, and I want them to be able to sustain

doing online church. And I know that's really challenging for people right now to figure out

a way to simplify, to make it fluid and to build a team to do that. So that's, that's on my heart as

well. Yeah. So, I mean, talk a little bit about that because I don't think you you've talked about

online Jesus yet. Um, am I understanding right in the midst of this COVID season, you decided to write

and publish a book? Is that how this played out? Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, it's, um, it is a readable

in a, see how thin it is here. Um, readable in a day or an evening. I think several people have said,

I read that last night, which is exactly what I wanted it to be. Uh, when COVID hit pre COVID

after COVID and Jeff, you understand this, uh, churches were really questioning is digital

ministry. Is that, or is online church? Is that real community? That was the big question. Is it real

community? Then we didn't have a choice to find out whether it was or wasn't. And I'm just so thankful.

It's what I've been praying for is for churches to have an online presence. Uh, because I really think

there's a lot of power for the local church, especially, uh, to stay connected with the people

that come to their church and then to invite others in that would be, um, using Facebook as like the

yellow pages. And it's easy to invite a friend to look at, you know, Hey, check out my church

Facebook page. Anyways. Um, so yes, in 38 days, I wrote this because I was getting asked so much

and I needed to duplicate myself. So this is really just online. Jesus is our story. And you can get that

on Amazon if it's helpful to you. Uh, but I think you'll be surprised. I go through the three, um,

you know, disciplines of building community and discipling and caring for people online and how

to build care teams. And there's a lot of tricks and tips and ideas in there, uh, for you. And then,

uh, I have a website you can go to for free resources too, which is onlinejesus.info. So.

Honestly, like the, within this COVID season, you, you really, you hit the radar for me and it was

on the, I don't remember exactly what the topic was, but there were several, um, within the, the

online digital online practitioners willing to, it's, it's, you know, that, that group, that church

online group, online ministry group. Um, you know, I saw your name pop up on helping some churches

cause man, those first couple of weeks in March were crazy. So many people asking and just, it was

like, you know, I think collective, all of us, we were working 20 plus hours at some point, just

trying to help as many as, as at least in my camp we could. And, um, and I remember looking and I was

seeing like Angela Craig and I'm like, I don't know who that is. And just watching some of the feedback

you were giving, I'm like, that's really good. Like she's, I don't know who that is, but she's

intelligent. She's smart. She's responding well with that. I love how she handled that.

And, uh, it was funny a couple of times, sometimes I'll like jump on afterwards and just kind of help

firm up some things. And this is probably going to sound the ego. I really don't mean it that way.

But when you responded, I'm like, yeah, I don't need to worry about that. She's, she's got it covered.

She'll, she'll keep tapped in. And so, you know, a lot of the, the, the, and with the book, a lot of

these resources and guidance, you're able to help physical churches even wrestle within the season of how to

better understand Facebook and online has truly been awesome. I've loved seeing the church grow

through this and even getting some awareness of what you're doing with, with pursuit church

has been awesome. Really, really, really good. Well, let me ask this because, because I'm, you know,

I mean, literally my job with Stadia as director of digital church planting, my job is to literally

carbon copy you. So you, you wrote this into a book form, which I love, and I'm going to get the book,

buy it and, and, and read it. But the, the, the challenge is also, in addition to, you know,

carbon copying yourself into a book, I want to figure out like, what's the formula? How do I get

people to start to understand Facebook, YouTube, virtual reality, video games, understand some of

these digital platforms differently and start to look at some of the relationships that could be built in

the same way that you have, obviously with, with Facebook. Somebody wants to get started in, in doing

a digital church. Walk me through a couple of their first steps. How would you, if you were doing it

today, knowing what you know, how would you start a digital church 2020 mid post COVID?

Draw, draw every idea you have about what church looks like. Then talk to Jeff, because when I did

this there, I was making it up as I went along. And it was really important to be flexible, to have an

adaptive leadership style. And also just practicing intellectual humility, like saying, I don't have the

answers because you're not going to have the, if you want to have all the answers before you start, you're

not going to start. So I would start with number one, connecting with people that are already doing

this. And maybe it's, maybe it's not just digital only, but I would say the best thing you could do

is to audit an online, a church that's doing online that you like their style. Cause every style is

different. You could volunteer or apprentice at Fursuit Church Live and be part of the team and just

be looking like, that's what we're doing now is anybody who has church staff that they can't,

they can't train up. I'm inviting them to just come and be on our team. So the person can learn

and then take that back to their church or do it themselves. Cause that's important that we work

together, recognizing like what group of people, what demographic is God calling you to? Cause you could

hone into that just by what platform you pick. So Facebook might not be the platform for the people

that you're supposed to serve, but there's, there are lots of platforms you can explore. So, you know,

find, find people that are doing like-minded people. And you're in such a great spot right now,

if you're starting, because when Jeff and I started, we didn't know each other. And we were saying how great

it would be to know one another, um, at that point to know we weren't crazy for having these ideas.

And, um, so know your demographic, uh, find the right platform, creating a care team. And I write

this in the book too, but, uh, we did ours backwards. And I actually think for a digital ministry, this is an

okay way to do it, uh, because you don't know who your people are until you start. And so for me,

I was looking for people that were already engaged and, and obviously called to our specific church.

Now for you, it post COVID or during COVID right now, um, you have more people in your site,

in your site line because churches have been doing online, uh, platforms now for about three months.

So there's going to be more interest for you to bring like-minded people onto your team. So I would

say, start having coffee conversations with people. Uh, and that doesn't have to be, you don't have to

know them in person. They could just people, people that you have met online. So I think that's just the

basic stuff. I really just remember to always put people before your program. I think that's what's

made Pursuit Church Live successful is that we focused, um, you know, 90% of our attention on

building relationships, not on producing, you know, flashy content. And there's a place for

flashy content. I'm not saying there isn't, maybe that's what you're called to. It just wasn't my

gift set. So know how God has created you and then surround yourself with people that are different

than you. So if you're an entrepreneur or you're a shepherd or you're an administrator or you're a

creator, then you're going to need other people on your team, um, that compliment that strength and, um, you

can find them out there. God will provide them. I'm sure he always does. When he calls us, he provides

what we need.

I mean, content's important and we talk a lot about it on the show, but it doesn't stop at the content.

The content needs to lead to community. Um, otherwise, you know, we had talked James 1, 22, all the time

where it's not, don't just be hearers of the word, you know, in this case online, do what it says in the

real world. And so we need that, that physical execution. We need that, that community for us to,

to exude. If, if all we are is, um, if the only place that we show our spiritual gifts are the fruits

of the spirit in, uh, in virtual space, it doesn't show up in our real life. What are we? Like if,

if I, if I'm a Christian in a Facebook group, but I, I, I'm a jerk to my wife and I yell at my kids all

the time. I mean, I don't know that I'm really showing the, the, the level of, of Christ that I

should be even in the physical realm. And so the challenge for a digital church is don't just be

content, be content in a virtual environment, a digital environment that causes action physically.

And so you're seeing that with, with the, the online groups, with the relationships, with the, the, the

coffees, with having these face-to-face conversations, even, even digitally, but you're also seeing that

in the micro locations and a number of the other things that you guys are working on. I'm, I'm so

encouraged, uh, by it. And I, I even just want, want to speak to that because there's a season of our

churches, uh, our, we're doing digital, they're moving back. Honestly, today, as I'm doing this

recording, I've had three conversations with, with digital, potential digital church planters who are

considering digital church planting because the physical church where they work isn't interested

in doing online ministry. And so they're looking at potentially planting a digital church as a solution,

uh, as a stopgap to, to get into do things digitally because their current employer, the current church

isn't interested, which is, which is fine. Some churches aren't called to the digital ministry.

Hopefully some, some will be. If, if that's you, like be encouraged. There are others out there

like you who are, who are struggling, who are trying to figure this out. He's trying to figure out

that balance. Um, and, and honestly, I was, I was offlining, um, earlier here with Angela where man,

2017 was a rough year for me because I felt like I was alone. We talked about it here on the podcast

before, uh, and, and knowing I didn't know it at the time, but there's people like Angela who was

already working through some of this stuff and, and trying to figure it out, but being a front runner

here in this digital only. So don't be discouraged. There are others out there. Um, jump in some

Facebook groups, meet some people, have conversations through, you know, the stadia church planning

Facebook group, the church.digital slash FB will include the links to it, that online digital

church practitioners, whatever it's called. They keep changing the name on me, that group. Um,

you know, there, there's, there's plenty of opportunities to meet people in the dialogue.

Nobody's got the, nobody's got the complete answers yet. We don't, we don't have the final

solution. We're all figuring this out together. And so jump in those conversations and let's,

let's work through this in one piece. I have been so encouraged by this, um, Angela, I had,

had no idea like you were out there and, and moving down this road. So thank you for what

you're doing through pursue church. Um, and some of the lessons that, that you're learning, um, man,

just as we're landing the plane, um, any closing thoughts, anything just to kind of wrap up?

I would just say that, um, digital ministry is like canoeing a mountain. I don't know if you've

heard of that book, but I highly recommend it. And, and so listen to the call of God on your life.

Surround yourself with people that will support you. You have two right here in this podcast

that would be happy to help you and move you forward. And, and then know that God has something,

something really incredible for you. And it's going to look different than what I'm doing. And, um,

that's the beauty of God's kingdom. So I say, um, bring it on, like don't hold back. And if you're

working with another church that it's not, you know, that's not part of their, uh, ethos or their

mission, that is okay. And you can start a group online on your own. Totally do it. Just do it and test

it. And, uh, don't be afraid to stick both feet on feet in because, uh, Jesus will catch you.

That's awesome. Well, Hey, so we're, we're going to, we're going to wrap on that. I've, I've,

I've loved this. Hey, Angela, um, if somebody wants to get in touch with you, uh, maybe they've got

questions on Pursuit Church or even Pursuit Church, how do they find information about you or the church?

You can go to Pursuit Church Live on Facebook and message me. I'm there quite a bit. Uh, you can

email me through our website, Pursuit, um, Pursuit Church Live or, uh, onlinejesus.info. I have all

sorts of ways. So definitely get in touch. I'm happy to help.

Typical online minister all over the place on every platform. That's awesome. Well, Hey, so,

so we're going to wrap, um, very much. Thank you for this, Angela. Appreciate you, uh, jumping on,

uh, for Angela. This is Jeff at the church, digital and stadia church planning. Thanks for

jumping on this podcast with us and we'll see you next time here at the show. Y'all have a good day.