EP087: Stories & Strategy of a Digital-Only Expression of Church

Episode 87 of the Church Digital Podcast, powered by Stadia Church Planning.

Jeff Reed here.

Hey, yeah, so audio, video looks a little different than it typically does.

I'm actually on vacation.

I'm at Vero Beach, Florida.

I'm in a hotel room.

I'm so passionate about digital-only churches.

Let's pause the vacation.

Let's come in and let's have a conversation talking about digital-only churches here for the podcast.

So here we are.

We're doing a podcast on vacation from Vero Beach, Florida.

Behind the curtain, there's literally like, you know, outside and sun and skies, and it's awesome.

But once again, it's COVID season, so I'm stuck inside staring at the walls of a room, even though it's sunny and beautiful outside, because Florida is the hotspot of whatever.

Awesome.

Great stuff.

Hey, so let's talk about digital-only churches.

I put together a panel.

By the way, Stadia is doing digital-only expressions of church.

We're helping church planners figure out how to plant a church digitally.

And that's our mission.

That's our vision.

That's our goal.

I'm not saying it's my job title, but it's literally my job title, Director of Digital-Only Church Planting.

And so let's figure out how Stadia can help people like you maybe plant a digital-only expression of church.

We're starting some cohorts in September 2020.

And we're looking for people maybe like you who are asking some questions.

Hey, what's a digital-only church?

We're looking for people like you to step up, to come in here, to learn how to plant a church only in digital-only space, not digital first that may one day grow into a physical environment.

No, we're looking for people who want to do church to reach a digital community with the gospel in digital community to the end game of doing discipleship within the digital community.

No physical footprint required.

Some of you out there are saying right now, hey, Jeff, that's crazy.

Yeah, you know what?

You're right.

It is crazy.

But there have been people that have been doing this for years.

And this is the panel we're bringing into the conversation because, hey, I want you to meet these crazy people who are actually doing this and to hear the stories of what crazy people sound like when they tell stories of the life change they're seeing when they do crazy stuff like plant a church in digital-only space.

So for this conversation, we're bringing in three digital-only church planters.

We're bringing in Jade Earhart.

Jade is no stranger to the podcast.

He may actually hold the record right now for most times that he's been a guest on the podcast.

We'll have to do the map.

He, the map there, he runs a church called Love Clan in Discord.

His target is really video gamers.

And he's using video games to connect with, engage, and just lead to Christ and disciple people in digital space.

We're also bringing back Angela Craig.

Angela, we did a podcast with her just recently.

She is passionate about Facebook.

And it's actually, I think, Assemblies of God, like their first social media church.

It's not like there's a lot of other social media churches.

But she's been in Assemblies of God Church, Pursuit Church Live, on Facebook for a number of years.

So we'll include links to their show notes and the show notes, links to their churches for you to check out.

We're also bringing somebody new into the podcast.

We're bringing Alina in.

And Alina is part of the volunteer leadership of VR Church.

Now, DJ Soto, we've done lots of conversations with them, good friends, and love the stuff that he is doing for the kingdom and virtual reality.

And I was like, hey, DJ, come on this podcast.

And DJ's like, I can't, man.

I'm going to be on vacation, so am I, but he's more sabbatical.

And so I wanted to give him a space.

I think he's up in the mountains somewhere where he doesn't have Wi-Fi, because that's where a digital-only person really vacations where there's no Wi-Fi.

Good for you, DJ.

But I asked the next best thing, hey, DJ, give me somebody else.

Who's your best person to kind of speak into this?

And he said, you got to talk to Alina.

And so for this conversation, we're bringing in Alina from VR Church.

We're bringing in Jay from Love Plan.

We're bringing in Angela from Pursuit Church Live.

Myself with the church digital, as well as Stadia Church Planning, to really have a conversation centered around the stories and the vision of a digital-only church.

And that's what you're getting, the stories, the vision, the strategies of a digital-only expression of church.

Okay, everybody, here you go.

Alina, maybe just even to kick us off, you want to maybe introduce yourself, talk about how you got connected with VR Church, kind of what that relationship is.

And just tell us a little bit about that.

Tell us your ministry story.

Wow, great story.

It's so long.

I'm going to try and shorten it up.

I have a illness.

I've been ill for about 10 years.

I have a temperature problem.

My vascular system, my neurological vascular system doesn't work, which makes me unable to go outside because if it gets, the temperature increases, I burn, temperature goes down a little bit.

I lose circulation.

And that left me confined at my house for about seven years until just me and my husband and my cats, pretty isolated, quarantine for seven years pretty much, until I discovered virtual, yeah.

And went into all space, didn't know what to expect.

I saw there was a church there.

I thought that was crazy.

That was my first reaction.

That's crazy.

So I had to go check it out.

And when I did, I just, I, in that moment, I knew that this was it.

And I, I had no experience, no anything.

I just knew that I had to jump in and do whatever I humanly could to make sure that this, whatever I could do to make it grow, make it flourish, make it stay, make it, yeah.

So I just started volunteering where I could, started taking some seminary things, just so I could better.

I didn't even realize I was going to be a pastor.

I was just, like, trying to, my life groups, my everything, so I was going to be a little bit better.

And, yeah, over a few years, I just ended up becoming a pastor for Toronto Church.

And it's now pretty much, it's all voluntary, voluntary.

It's, you know, there's not a whole lot of financial support yet, as probably most of you know, but the online digital type ministry.

But, so, yeah, so I bombed here, and it's, it's been, there's no words, wow.

I can't believe it, but my sick self, that is still isolated to my home, that is still in horrific pain on a regular basis,

I am happier now than I ever was, ever.

Like, it's most, I can't cry, because they put mascara on, you know, and then the whole video thing.

But, yes, yes, it's just, like, insane.

And so, yeah, Pastor Soto and I, maybe about a year ago, just decided that I'm on board, 100%,

and so we're going to not just do it now, but for however many years I have left in me, just continue, just continue.

And we're just going to keep growing, and we already have another platform coming up, and the whole church is ran by volunteers.

And there's so many of them, I use trap.

Everybody's giving up a good time.

Yeah, I love that, Alina.

I love your heart, kind of, as I hear, you know, you're a volunteer, you're serving, you're contributing outside of a paying job.

You're right, a lot of these digital-only churches, the majority of them, have little, you know, funding,

and are very much leaning on that volunteer structure in place to do ministry.

And, you know, these are one of the things, and we'll get to later, about how maybe the physical church model and a digital-only expression of church,

there's some differences kind of in the midst of that.

But even just to open up to the group here, like, where did the idea of doing a digital-only church come from?

Like, you know, DJ, obviously, was doing his virtual reality, but Jay, Angela, like, what did, at the beginning, what did this look like?

What did a digital-only church look like?

What was the genesis kind of concept here?

Six or seven years ago, I started doing groups on Facebook for women in leadership,

and they were through the Assembly of God, and the initial idea was to serve the women of the churches,

so raise up leaders in the churches.

And what I found was 40% of our groups, in most cases, were women that were not in the church.

They were women who loved Jesus or were interested in faith, wanted to pursue purpose.

They knew that they had a purpose, didn't know what it was, but they had been disconnected from church.

Either they were hurt, they couldn't go, they couldn't get there on Sundays,

maybe they had chronic illness, or they were a single mom, or there was a list of things that were keeping people from church.

And then I thought, well, doing some research, as you all know, speaking in the choir,

over 60% of Americans won't attend a church.

And that was really my heartbeat, was because I'm an includer and a connector,

and I want everybody to know that they matter.

And so I asked our network what they thought of me trying a digital platform.

And so they were like, well, go for it.

At the time, they didn't approve it nationally from the national office.

But I just was like, well, I'm going to do this anyway.

So that's how we got started.

And that was our motivation, was just people that couldn't go to church or didn't want to go to church.

So you're seeing like 60% of people, you quoted the stat, won't engage at a physical location,

are not interested in coming to the building.

I've heard similar stats coming out of LifeWay.

And so like for you, the genesis of creating Pursue Church Live was this idea of, well, if I can't get them to the building,

let me utilize these digital tools to engage with them, you know, at least in social media or in the digital space and do church then.

Now, you started, Angela, you started in Bible study by doing that online.

And like, at what point did it go from a Bible study to a church?

Like, how did the idea grow and morph from just doing the online Bible studies to, you know, maybe where you are today?

Kind of walk me through that.

Trial and error.

When we first started in 2017, we tried every platform.

We tried streaming to our website.

We tried Instagram.

We tried WhatsApp.

We tried Facebook.

And to be successful, I knew I needed to focus in one place.

And Facebook right now has 2.65 billion people coming to the doors now in COVID.

And so that was the easiest free platform.

Like, Lena, we are all volunteers as well.

And so I just figured, well, we're going to start there because Facebook will share what we're doing for free.

And we have the biggest audience.

And I didn't have one specific person that I was targeting at the time.

I know you're supposed to do that.

But I was just really open to including everyone.

And I, you know, I looked at the early church and they met in homes.

They came together wherever they could come together.

Not even in homes, but wherever they could come together, they came together.

And now we come together online.

So that's how we started.

It's beautiful.

Can I just add when you said about, you know, whether it be because they were hurt elsewhere or they just couldn't physically and how important that it was that this is available to everyone.

This is such a huge drive and motivation for me as well.

We have people all the time that come in that say whether they maybe have been hurt in the past.

And they're just too afraid to go into a physical church.

And what if they have the same experience where online they can pop in?

They don't like it.

They can, you know, if it's not for them, they could just discreetly leave.

They don't have to get up and walk out.

So it's so much easier for them to just check it out.

Connecting people from all around the world.

It's pretty awesome.

You know, DJ's told me stats, something like 80 to 85% of people, I don't want to misquote, so if you know the real thing, let me know.

But DJ's talked about VR church, 80 to 85% are people who are lost or atheists coming in, agnostics coming in to just experience it.

Like even the putting on of the goggles, taking them off, like that's the exit plan.

If they're not comfortable, if they don't, you know, agree with what's happening, it's not like they're a captive audience and stuck in a location.

But even just to explore, to experiment, they're seeing that in that digital-only realm with the virtual reality.

What is it like, Alina, doing ministry in an environment?

First off, do you see that, like having that large of lostness being experienced in the VR services?

And what is it like to kind of do ministry in that type of environment?

It's exciting is what it is, because there's a difference, I guess.

And they're both wonderful, but there's a difference between, you know, nurturing and feeding someone that already has their faith.

There's something extra exciting about bringing new people to the Lord.

And it's happened so frequently.

I've even had like people that came in with the intent to troll.

I just found out what trolling was a few years ago.

Anyway, they tend to come in and make a disaster.

And they actually did.

And then they came back the following Sunday, because even though they came to me, they still hear it.

They still receive it in there somewhere.

There's still a little plant, you know, seed there.

And I've actually had people, there's someone that volunteers now, that came back to me a couple of weeks later, waited till after all of the after-service prayers, then 30 minutes he waited there.

And I'm like, can I pray for you?

Because this is what we're doing at the moment.

And he's like, no, it's okay.

I just really want to apologize for my actions a couple of weeks ago.

And he was trolling.

And he just told me his story.

And he was just devastated, so much loss, so much grief in this small amount of time.

And he just needed to get out.

And I just said, I am totally understanding.

Let's pray.

And we did pray.

He now serves at volunteer church.

He still now serves at VR church.

And there's just like, wow, that is a really incredible thing to not just see once in a blue moon, but to see all the time.

That's awesome.

Hey, you know, lots of, it's interesting.

85%, you know, that's a very high number.

60% don't want to set foot in a building.

And so when we look at the people who are doing digital only, one of the biggest differences between, I won't say one of, but one of, it's not the only, but one of, is this idea of it's much more open to lost people or people who are cold to Christ.

Maybe we should say it that way.

Where they're not warm to it.

It's not a church experience necessarily for the 99s, the people who are warm to Christ.

But it's more focused off after going after that, that evangelism component.

What are some, what are some other things that when we look at a difference between a digital only church and a physical church experience, you know, I know, Angela, Jade, you guys have had experience in that physical space as well.

What, what, what is the difference between a digital only expression of church and maybe a physical church?

What, what should some of us that are more comfortable in the physical realm, what should we be looking for as a difference in a digital only expression?

Um, sure.

Yeah.

I mean, I think a lot of the, um, so like even just thinking about the last question kind of leads into this one.

Where, where, where, where did the, the reason for an online only church come from, uh, for us, it's mostly by accident.

Um, you know, it was just that, that it, uh, it was the plan to start a physical church.

You know, our church is specifically for gamers.

So we do have kind of a targeted audience, maybe the less of not to not be inclusive, but more, it's sort of like, um, you know, that you, you have people that have a specific need, uh, and if they're not being heard, you know, like a lot of the Activision or Activision, that's actually activation stuff that is happening right now.

Um, activist type level where we're saying this minority group is not being heard and it's not that we're saying we're not including everybody in it.

It's just this group needs to be heard right now.

And so, um, I saw that, you know, with, uh, with gamers, it was, um, a group of people that felt like they had been hurt by the church at large, um, rather intentionally or not, um, or everybody did that or not.

And so they were currently online.

And so my, my thought was, this is what I can do right now.

Um, I, I, if I had the capacity, if I had the money, the ability, I would have started a physical church.

Um, but because I didn't, and because I did have the ability via discord, um, and Facebook and other means, I was able to connect with people online.

And so, uh, I think it's sort of the creativity comes out of, um, a, uh, a smaller, um, see, see, what is it?

There's something like, uh, I don't know the exact word, but it's something like having, having the confines of something creates creativity or something like that.

I can't remember the exact quote, but, but basically not, not having unlimited resources, usually you become creative, I guess, out of that.

And so we kind of had to, um, so people were online and, um, and, and, and so I say one of the main things from the, that, that we learned from that is that that's where people are throughout the week.

So with the physical, you're really, you're creating a space, um, like if even something like Starbucks or whatever, you're, you're going to have to try to get people to that place.

If they don't know it exists, then they can't get to it.

If they don't have a physical location, like if it's within 30, you know, I wouldn't drive 30 miles for a Starbucks, you know?

Um, so there, there's a, there's a gap where like, and I also don't want to, I don't want to assume, uh, you know, I like Angela, you're giving stats that, that are from America.

But, uh, Alina, if I remember right, are you, is there, where, where are you from?

I'm from Washington state, so U.S.

Okay.

So you're from U.S.

Um, but like there, I know there's lots of people in VR church that, um, are from all over the world and the same is true for love clan and Angela, you know, with your ministry, I don't know how, how that works too.

But I mean, we have people in our, in our team that are not from the U S I mean, like it's a decent majority of them.

Um, people that have, were from America that ended up moving to Korea, you know, people that live now in China, um, people that are from, from the UK.

So yeah, I mean, there's a pretty, pretty actually widespread, uh, group.

And so the, the online to versus physical mostly is just space that I can connect with people from all around the world.

Um, and you know, I can read versus like go into all nations a lot more, more literally than maybe somebody that just says, well, we're looking at this state, you know, we're looking at this city.

Um, and, and, and we're really more looking at like, how do we, what, what does it look like for us to have multiple languages?

Um, you know, like, I mean, the, the, the, it, it kind of comes off when it, when it turns into online because you just, you can hit, you can hit people from everywhere.

And, um, also your, your time restraints are just so different.

You know, I'm not looking at Sunday, uh, like that's just another day.

When you have people that are willing to be on at all points in time, mostly because if I was to say, you know, even somebody that lives 30 minutes away, if I want to go meet that person, there's still a lot that goes into us meeting versus if there's a group of people online and you just hop on and say, Hey, who's around right now?

Um, I mean, that, that's just so quick that, uh, it, it, it's a lot of the same reasons that we, we use Facebook.

Like I have a minute right now.

Uh, and so I can, I can hop in and that's just really, it's difficult.

Like people's have said Sunday is a hard time, uh, to meet, but I think it's also, um, just that you have more time, more opportunities to catch people throughout the week.

And, and, and that does, again, you know, you read stuff like acts that they're meeting daily.

You read that more literally when you're doing online, um, versus like a church might say, well, you know, I mean, it has a different context and whatever.

And, and for us, it is a different context.

It's just, yeah.

I was just going to say, there's so much in there, um, that I wanted to say, agree and go, wow.

Yes.

Um, but one of those things was about that, uh, ease of meeting and the fact that it's throughout the week.

It's not just one hour of Sunday, let's see you next week, but there's this fluid, um, every day, every day there, there's people who are active in some way.

Um, and what I love is even just yesterday, um, uh, Pastor Wilco was, I had something to share and he lives in, um, the Netherlands and just that quickly, he's like, oh, if you have a moment, it's a whole new project I'm working on.

And instantly, boom, I put on my thing, put on his thing.

Two minutes later, we are walking through this incredible world.

Um, and it's just that easy, you know, that, you know, my drive, the hobby limits is global.

Yeah, it was, it was interesting for me as, as Stadia is doing these digital only church plant cohorts.

I didn't anticipate like having the global connection that we've had, like, and when we weren't even really broadcasting or promoting this stuff, even, it was really internal, maybe a couple of web pages.

And we suddenly started getting Google hits from, um, and actually having conversations with planners in countries like South Africa, uh, Kenya, uh, Indonesia, uh, Philippines.

Like, I'm literally like having a very hard time trying to get face to face with somebody literally on the other side of the planet because it's, the meeting can only happen at eight or 9 a.m.

Or he's way late or I'm way early.

I was having a conversation with, with the guy in South Africa.

I don't know, maybe like six or seven o'clock.

It was after, it was at the end of my time in Eastern and I'm having the conversation and literally in the middle of this, I'm like, what time is it right now where you are?

And he's like, oh, it's 1 a.m.

I'm like, why are we talking right now at 1 a.m.?

There's got to be a better time for you.

And he's like, oh, I'm up anyway.

It's okay.

Not a big deal.

Now we all need to sleep.

And I'm not advocating for that.

Um, although I do it, do it all the time, but we suddenly are seeing how we are able to get reach with an idea.

But even in context of this reach spreading, which I think is really the heart of, of a digital church, it's not just this reach of a, of a one-way communication,

but it's this idea of an engagement, building relationships in this two-way conversation.

So, um, I would love this.

Tell me some ministry stories.

I want to dig in here a little bit.

Like, tell me, um, tell me the greatest experience, the greatest story.

Tell me one of the wins of your churches digitally.

I'm a story guy.

Stories go a far way in kind of showing the ministry that's happening in digital only.

So, so tell me a story of what's happening at y'all's respective churches online.

Well, I know what they're all thinking.

They're all thinking, where, which one do I start with?

Right?

That's what I was thinking.

Like, every day is amazing.

Like, that is, as far as storytelling.

And that is the biggest difference that I see in traditional church, church, I say traditional church with four walls, and digital ministry, is it is building daily relationships.

And our local churches, which I'm an era leader for our district here, and our pastors, their biggest question is, how do I get people into church?

Well, that's even harder right now.

And then, uh, the second is, how do I get them connected to God and other people?

Well, in the digital space, you have that opportunity from this to go big to small pretty quick just by engaging people in relationship.

So, uh, just yesterday I was selling a couch on a Facebook group, and the woman drove from about hour and 45 minutes away.

And the first thing she said to me was, we have common people on Facebook as friends.

And I was like, really?

Who's that?

Well, as they turned out, she had gone to, um, like, grade school, a Christian grade school.

And then she'd been in a church that was, um, she categorized it as cultic, like, as a cult.

I don't know if it was or was not.

But, uh, and then she could not express her sexuality, um, because she's gay.

And so she was basically shunned from the church and her family.

And she said, now, I still love Jesus.

I'm still interested in faith, but I have nowhere to go.

Like, I have nowhere to go.

And so I got to have a conversation with her about, well, I totally understand where you're at.

That's why I started doing this thing three years ago.

So I could connect her online.

Whereas if I had an in-person space, I couldn't necessarily invite her.

I mean, I could invite her, but she's not going to come, you know, drive two hours or almost two hours

to come on a Sunday necessarily.

So, and that's just one story, um, of how easily you can connect, uh, with people and invite them in.

Selena, you're way too excited.

Tell me, okay, give me, give me two, give me three.

Um, there is a good dear friend of mine now for about seven months.

Um, I, I found her, I, I hadn't seen her around the church or, and then one time I was looking

in our prayer channel and discord, um, she was asking for prayer because she was in a horrible

accident.

Um, she was in the hospital or, uh, she wasn't even sure she's going to walk again.

She was alone.

She didn't have anybody with her.

Um, and, and to boot, she couldn't speak, um, because she couldn't speak.

That was not within her capabilities.

And she's, um, asked for prayer.

And I, of course, prayed for her.

Um, I reached out to her, um, I sent her, I didn't even know her.

I just like, just saw this in her thing.

I said, flowers and a little something.

Um, and we had just become such good friends and she's like almost everywhere.

Cause we have these, you know, life groups and, and hangouts and services and Bible studies.

And she's like almost everywhere.

Um, she's home now.

She's not like, she's taken like three or four steps.

She's not still walking, walking, but, um, just seeing this difference, this her, that

I, this quiet, like hurt little bird almost lonely hurt little bird watching her grow and

prides and watching her grow.

And it's just been beautiful.

And just the fact that this can be done, um, and this never would have been done had it

not been online.

Like she, how's she gonna, um, um, a physical church door from her hospital bed.

And now she's like super encouraging of everybody else.

It's infectious.

You know, that the, the, the, my favorite thing is, um, filling the Lord feeling so much love

that overflows, that it spills out without you even trying.

Watch this every day, everybody filling each other with so much love that it just pours out.

And, um, watching, like it's, it's, it's good that we're growing, but it's also sad that we're

growing because like, I can't connect like I like to with as many people.

There's not enough time in the day.

Um, but it sure is beautiful watching them, um, um, one another, encourage each other and

real, real, um, relationships with Christ and real, real relationships with each other.

Um, and there's like a, so many incredible, I, okay, last one.

And then, oh, so a couple of weeks ago, um, after, uh, VR chat service, um, this gentleman

asked for prayer.

He asked for prayer because he, um, had no access.

He said he was able somehow to access computer, but normally wouldn't.

Um, and that where he lives in the world, um, you can't, Christ can't do that.

And he says, this has been my first connection, my first ability to even be in any sort of fellowship

in so long.

And I did cry.

And I don't know how long it's going to be until I can do this again.

And just stories like that.

And they happen a lot.

And I got to stop talking now.

Well, it's powerful because you start to, you see an opportunity of where digital is starting

to reach a type of person that, that really you weren't possibly reaching within the physical

building.

Like the, the stories are even Alina yourself with your, with your health conditions.

You weren't, you're not able to be in the physical space.

And so, you know, we're, we're talking about, you know, is, is the, is the digital only model

of church for, for everyone.

And I don't know 2020 where we are now.

I don't know that I would say the entire world is going to fit into a digital only church, but

I think we have an opportunity to reach somebody in ways that the physical building can't.

And I also would say that trends are leaning more that way almost in this COVID season, every

day, every week, every month seems to be going more and more as it's just getting more and

more difficult for physical buildings to, to really be, be utilized again.

And even like seeing how, you know, for example, Jade here has, has been diving in and, and

utilizing these digital tools to disciple, to grow, to challenge people, to create other

disciples.

Some of this evangelism to disciple making movement that, that he's been able to create, man, like

it's exciting.

So Jade, I mean, I want to hear some of these stories, like what's happening in your world

through, through love plans.

Sure.

Um, yeah, no, we just started.

So I, I just started streaming, um, doing like pretty regularly.

Uh, I hadn't, I, a bunch of stuff happened.

My main streaming platform ended, um, Mixer used to be a thing and now it's not.

So now I switched over to Twitch, uh, which is the primary, it's what most gamers use when

they're live streaming.

Um, if you're a church planner, you probably have, I don't know, maybe you've never even heard

of Twitch.

It was like, what is it?

It's a, yeah.

Um, that doesn't sound like life church, you know, I thought life church was number one,

you know?

Um, but yeah, it is.

So go ahead and say it, but where are you on Twitch?

Let's, let's go ahead and call it out.

We'll link to it in the show.

Okay.

Uh, it's Jate live.

That's just my, I'm just doing like just me.

I'm just playing games and, um, I have my story in the description.

Um, and we try to connect with people.

And, uh, so that's just, I'm trying to think of like current things, whatever's the, you know,

right, right, right in front of us.

Um, and so that's, for me, I, I quit my job at the church that I was working at.

Uh, so I could give love clan a little bit more of my time and I've been doing freelance

as like a way to, uh, supplement that.

So that's kind of my, what I'm doing now.

And, um, yeah, it's so my, my thought when I'm, where I want to kind of think it through

is, um, I don't, there's a, a side of this where it's a church planner could look at this

and go, yeah, it really makes sense.

Um, that they would reach people that otherwise couldn't be reached, you know, or otherwise

couldn't be, uh, go, wouldn't go to a normal church or whatever.

Um, but I think that can seem very like dismissive.

Like it's really good that they're reaching those people cause somebody should.

And so I'm going to keep doing my physical thing.

Um, and so I know you've talked to Jeff a lot about like fidgetal and like the, you know,

an idea of like having a digital and a physical.

And, um, so what I've, what I've kind of seen in some of my thoughts is like, okay, well,

what are ways that during the week you can talk to people that maybe they, maybe they would go to your church.

Maybe they wouldn't, but it's just your, what are you doing during the week?

Um, and so I've seen a decent number of pastors that have started doing this even where they're

like, Oh, I was already playing Fortnite with my kids.

I might as well stream it, you know?

Um, and it's just this other opportunity, uh, to talk to people, you know, during the week,

during the week you get to hear the stuff that other people are dealing with.

Um, you're really rubbing shoulders with people more often.

Um, you know, when I think of, of a story just from the, the gaming thing, uh, I was in a game and, um, I did something nice.

There's like some, some, you know, I won't get into why it was nice, uh, because it gets very gamey, but I basically, you know, had a choice to make.

And I decided to let this other person take the win essentially.

So, uh, and, and they were like, they were not on their mic before that, but then afterwards they were like, Hey, uh, you got to meet my brother.

He loves when people are nice in games and it was just this like weird, like, what?

I got to meet your brother.

But he was just like, no one's ever nice in this game.

You got, my brother's got, he's going to love you.

You got to, you got to meet them.

So then I was like, Oh, okay, well, you know, Hey, here's my, you know, information.

I'm actually live streaming.

And like, here's my discord.

And he joined in there.

You know, there's like, there's a way to connect with people.

Um, and I've talked about this on other stuff, but the, the idea for us is kind of step cuts where we're saying like, what's, what's the next step?

And we want to try to get people moving down this pathway.

And so, um, for, for me, a lot of this is how do I, like, if I, if I was to walk into Walmart, it's really difficult for me to talk to somebody and have another conversation with that person.

And so in gaming, it's the same thing.

I mean, it is difficult, but I have the opportunity to talk to somebody.

And that's the first step I don't usually get in Walmart, especially now.

Now, but even before now, it's still, it still was weird.

If you don't think it's weird for you to talk to people in Walmart, you're probably weird.

And I love that about you, but you are weird.

So, uh, that's that for, for me, that's like, okay, I have an opportunity to talk to somebody in gaming.

Um, and, and so our, um, like I was live streaming and I was playing a game.

Somebody joined, uh, and said, Hey, uh, so we, so we are, we do our things kind of differently for us.

We have a small group or whatever, like a group of people that we discuss and we play video games while we're going through the Bible.

So we'll take a chapter of the Bible and we'll go through it while we're playing video games.

Um, and since people have something in front of them to do that they would have already actively done, the timeframe doesn't really matter as much.

It's not like, yeah, we really got to be home soon.

You know, it's like, well, I'm already home and I'm eating food right now while I'm playing games.

So we can go ahead and talk about this.

And so it leads to the discussion.

So, um, those have usually we, it takes about four hours for us to go through a chapter.

Um, because we're like, well, this is a really interesting thing.

I hadn't thought about, let's talk about it.

And we're willing to like really dive into those things.

So, um, and we're live streaming it while we do that.

So people have joined the chat that have asked questions that, you know, they were like, hey, one person that comes to mind, one person said, hey, um, it's really cool.

You're talking about this Jesus stuff, but, uh, I'm still really struggling with the whole hell and damnation stuff.

So could, you know, what do you think about that?

And, um, you know, that from that experience, I I've kind of started saying that church planners and pastors sometimes answer questions people aren't asking.

Um, where it's like, let's, let's read through this verse and like, oh, this is a really easy softball thing that my, you know, non-Christian friends will like.

And, you know, it, it, it's sort of like, that's not even the question that they're necessarily asking.

And that when we're in our mind, we've already made decisions on things.

And when I'm streaming and I'm, I know that I have atheist friends that are watching, um, one of my mods is an atheist and he's, but we have awesome conversations back and forth because he like grew up in the church and he got kind of, you know, burned where, you know, by it.

And, and so we have really good conversations where he's like, yeah, you know, I guess I just hadn't thought about this way.

Or it's really cool to hear people talking about it this way.

That's not how I was used to it, you know?

Um, and so I'm, I will read a verse and I'll say, I'll, I'll hear it and I'll hear it like I'm talking to him.

Cause I am, I mean, virtually I'm, I'm talking to him.

He's in the chat and I'll realize, oh man, like, you know, this verse really doesn't make sense if I don't explain this word.

Like the, this holiness is just a Christian word.

Like it doesn't actually mean a whole lot to somebody else.

So, um, other than in video games, it's like an ability, you know, where you cast light on people and it like makes them radiant or something.

So it's like, how do you, um, I think a lot of the stories come from that, um, just like the opportunity to speak into, um, people's lives who otherwise might have gone to a church.

But, um, you know, like you said, Alina, where it's a very easy off ramp.

And I've said multiple times, that's the best and worst thing about online is that it's such an easy on ramp for people, but it's also such just as easy of an off ramp.

And I have people that, I mean, I've prayed for that have said that they are contemplating suicide and, um, I don't know where they went.

I mean, they, they've just disappeared and that's horrifying to me.

Um, it's, it keeps me up at night.

Um, but at the same time, like I have had conversations with people who never, it's not like you said, um, trolls, you know, we've had plenty of, some of our strongest member are people that came purposefully to, um, derail conversations and so on.

And then they stay because they're like, well, I mean, I don't know, just like something's a little different.

And, and then they, you know, so we've kind of said, it's like a church patrols that that's definitely a thing.

Um, yeah, I don't know.

I, I have, I have stories.

I think I've already shared another podcast that I don't, I don't really want to share again, just because they're long, but, but those are the conversations that do happen.

I mean, it, it really does to a lot of what you hit it on with, with all that really comes down to relationships, uh, a relationship with a troll is, is not shut up, go away.

It's an opportunity to engage at a new level and take some of that, that passion that was maybe initially set towards, you know, embarrassing you revert it and actually change it into a passion to grow and to change because there's something different about who we are and how we, we respond to them.

And even going back to the earlier thing of through online ministry, I tell you, like I learned this lesson early on, if you really want to engage with people online, it's better to ask questions than make statements.

The more that you can get other people talking, the more likely that you are to be able to speak into their life.

If you are actually just speaking at them one way, that's not engaging.

That's actually almost online at a posture of condescending where you're speaking down to them instead of allowing them to engage and speak into the conversation.

Yeah. And, and not that it's bad because it's, it's biblical, but that is, um, what a church service is.

You know, it's like, come, come watch me, you know, speak, you know, it, they might, there, there's an interactive portion.

There definitely is with worship. There's, um, time afterwards that you can ask questions, you can meet and so on.

But if, if there's somebody that's sitting down and they immediately have something on their mind that's like, well, I don't really care what you say because I don't like hell.

Um, that's something that we should like address right away.

And they, they're willing to have that conversation. Then let's have it.

Uh, and, and I just, I don't know how we get to that stage.

Usually people have one thing that they don't, they don't need two things to keep them from going to church.

One's enough, you know? Uh, and, and so for me, it's like kind of being open is like a, um, a dartboard of like, Hey, how's it going guys?

I'm a Christian and I play video games. Like, let's talk. And, and, and they're, they're not afraid to throw it out, you know, of like, well, I mean, what, what, what could it hurt?

You know, I'm going to really stump them with this one. Like hell sucks. Doesn't it? You know, it's like, yeah, I mean, I think I've thought about that before.

Like it, it, it kind of does. Let's talk about like why it's necessary, you know? Um, and that, that, that is something that I think a lot of people, um, when they think of how do I get people to church, a lot of it is like, well, if they could only hear what I had to say, then that, then they would just really change their mind.

And usually it's like, people need to be heard before they can move on and they can't be heard if they're just sitting in the chairs. So instead we get an opportunity to be like, I hear you. Like, I, I understand what you're saying and you're not wrong. It's just, let me say like where I coming from, because I have a different perspective than, than you, even though I've thought through the same things that you're thinking through and I've dealt with them. Like I've had to pray through a lot of these same problems.

Um, and so I, I, I think I, I, it just, that's, it's just different. It's different, but it's in a good way where I'm, we're having more open discussion. And that's what small group really should be is an open discussion point for people. But, um, it's rare. I think that people are going to come to your small group before they come to your church. And how will they even know it? Like our church is even promoting their small groups before they're promoting their church.

If I'm doing a Facebook ad, it's not so I can promote my small group. And, and for obvious reasons, lots of different reasons. So it's, it's looking at it in a different way.

Um, for, to be honest, that's one of the lessons that I've learned, um, through doing online ministry in recent years, people will, and I, and I've heard it. I've asked so many online pastors, it's guys who are really doing ministries in the space. You know, Jade, I know I've had this conversation with you. People will connect to community, uh, oftentimes online before they connect to Christ. And actually, I think that's almost a precursor to the, to the, to the physical world as well. I think coming out of this COVID season, I don't want to be like the drop the mic guy.

But I think that's where as a church, I think that's where we need to go is that we need to be more likely to, you know, utilize our people to engaging in community towards it. And that's where I think the idea of a digital only expression that really is engaging people relationally in community.

And through those relationships talking about Christ that like from, from a one-on-one perspective or one to a few perspective, as opposed to, you know, a man standing on a pole on a stage behind a pulpit, exuding a spiritual gift for hundreds or thousands to see those.

Those, I mean, if we're really honest with ourselves, that model was struggling pre-COVID. Now COVID's happening and we, we long, there's the small piece of us that wants to get back to that.

But as a church, there's more to what makes up a church, a church in that one hour on Sunday.

And what I love is that all of you in context of your digital churches are working towards this idea of creating the community component, really, before we even start diving into this idea of, of actually doing a church service.

The church service almost is secondary a little bit to, to what an actual church, digital only expression of, of church is, you know, all of you are shaking your heads.

Yes. And someone listening to the podcast or watching this on YouTube had just exploded because like, you don't say that in physical buildings, but in digital environments, we, we see that time and time again.

Let me ask, you know, Angela, Alina, what, what other lessons, observations, like, what are you, what are you learning maybe about ministry by doing it digitally that maybe is different than, than what we're seeing in the physical space?

Are there any other things that kind of jump out at you guys?

I think what Jake was saying really is, um, the way I see it from like a leader, leadership perspective is that in the traditional wall church, we have a top down and in digital space, people that are called digital, digital ministry or digital evangelist or whatever you want to call yourself.

Um, they're looking at it from the perspective of bottom up and creating liminal spaces that are transformational that are creating holding environments where people could come and be safe and really seen.

And we learned this from our African friends, like they have, they have a total relational way of leadership where the most important thing is to be seen and then work together towards a goal.

So like, I think intuitively those that are, are, are, are called to digital ministry are seeing this kind of reversed followership as far as we as leaders are learning with and from people that are following.

And, and so that's incredibly important to me.

It's, um, some people aren't going to like that structure, uh, but that is the way of Jesus being that, you know, that servant leader.

Uh, the other thing that I wanted to add to the conversation was as far as, um, a fidgetal church and what would be valuable to see and is not seen unless you do it is that there's so many people within your church.

Like sometimes whether it's a small army or a large army of people like, uh, uh, Alina who can't serve, um, who have found themselves in a place.

And that I would say that that's my team was built on that people that love Jesus that could no longer serve for, because of a physical reason.

And I write that, that was one of the stories I was going to share from my book that I wrote at COVID.

Um, and I can share that later, but, um, it's, was of a, um, one of our team leaders, she's in charge of our prayer room on Facebook and her name's Anastina.

And she, um, she just wrote this beautiful blog.

And so I said, can I share it in my book?

Because this is just such a description, um, of what, um, leaders can see is we have what nine or 10% of the people in the church actually volunteering.

And you have a whole bunch of people in your church right now that are online many, many hours that need a purpose and where God gave them a purpose and they have a story to tell.

So that's my encouragement, um, and I have lots of stories of that, um, as far as, uh, doing both in person and digital.

That's beautiful.

Just that, um, the purpose as someone who is that person, um, and not just a random purpose, but such an amazing and beautiful and couldn't be more important purpose.

And, um, absolutely through digital ministry, we are able to share that.

And so many people, I can have a list, I don't have a list, so I can't name names anyway, but super long list of people that otherwise could never have served in other circumstances are able to serve.

And the other thing that I think is so cool, and I don't know any percentages and I'm not going to pretend to, but, um, it, at least in my experience and then from listening to, to, to all of you, it sounds like it's similar for you as well.

Um, where the physical church, yes, there are groups that, you know, do a Bible study or this or that, but a mass majority, it's a Sunday service and, and then next Sunday.

But I feel that this online digital ministry is because of the ease of just, you're just there like so easily.

I think that we have a lot higher percentage, um, at least in my experience, uh, people who are engaging throughout the week, um, and, and not just Sunday.

And sometimes like four or five days a week, there's, I don't know, one and 20 people that you just see four or five days a week.

And, um, it's, yeah, I think that there's a community is, um, to me, it's stronger even, and people go, you can't have real relationships online.

I'm like, whoa, it feels like we have deeper, more relationships, um, from my experience.

Yeah, I know lots of pastors will have, you know, conversations with me, the relationships online, don't abandon gathering together.

You know, that's the, the, the challenge out of, out of Hebrews and, um, you know, the, the, the biblical model of church cannot be done in, in digital space.

And, and I, you know, I've actually, and Jade's helped me with some of those conversations.

We've spent a lot of time, um, hours digging into, okay, what is the biblical foundation of, of, of a, of a church?

Like, what is the Bible called the church to be?

And, and, and can you do that digitally?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

So maybe the corporate worship and the teaching in the physical environment, when you do that

digitally, it doesn't actually work.

But oftentimes I think even the, the, the current model of a physical church, um, is, is just it.

It's a model, you know, mega church, giga church.

Those are really popular in Korea, micro location, you know, under a mud hut or under a palm tree,

like three or four people gathering that's bringing revival in India to say that one model is better

than another is, is, is I don't, I don't have that ability.

Like that, that's not my call.

It's, it's, it's, it's God's, um, you know, for, for us, for, for stadia and, and, and knowing y'all

in your heart, it's, Hey, let's go back to the Bible.

Let's, let's see what the Bible calls us to do.

And let's figure out how to make that, make that happen.

And as we look at Acts 2, we see a lot of the relational components come out in that where

we're engaging with people's lives through, through prayer.

We're, we're giving back into the community and helping with ways with that there's, there's

teaching, there's worship, there's all of these things.

There's, there's being spirit led and being moved through that.

Um, but, and this is the standard that we, um, are, are holding ourselves to even in the

digital only expression.

Let's figure out how to do these things, um, so that we can utilize this platform to maybe

engage with people in a way that's not being done in our physical environments.

And I just want to, you know, I want to hats off to all you guys, all three of you, the two

ladies, excuse me, and Jake, uh, who are, um, doing a great work here, uh, experimenting, digging

in, asking questions, trying things.

Well, you know, the rest of the world's like, you're crazy.

You want to do a church in virtual reality?

That's, that's, that's not real.

You're abandoning, getting gathering together.

You know, I, I, I literally, I had, I had a pastor tell me I was, I was sinning because

he had such a theological concern with, with even doing this digital only expression.

Um, and, you know, he's currently broadcasting his church services online.

Thank you, COVID.

So I don't, I don't know really, you know, how much of it's really a theological concern

versus in an opinion, especially in this COVID season.

Uh, but there's, there's a lot of good that's being done in these environments and there's

lots of stories of lives that are being changed and disciples that are being trained and released

into disciple making environments out of doing the work that you guys are doing to help the

churches, to help become the church that, that you all are.

So, so thank you very much for doing this.

Hey, we're going to, we're going to, we're going to wrap here a little bit.

Um, but let, let me ask this question and we'll see where this goes.

The best piece of advice that, that you can get, because Stadia, we're doing digital only

expressions of church.

I've got planners that, that want to be the next VR church that, that are excited to dive

into video gaming and everything that's involved there.

And so I, I want you to give me one single piece of advice that the digital only planters

that, that are listening, that they can hear, that they can process, that, that they can

own.

Um, Jay, why don't you go first?

Um, I would say best piece of advice for somebody that's considering would be to, um, honestly,

to take a large portion of time and pray about it and to have other people praying for you.

Because our, like, like I said, it wasn't by, it wasn't on, on purpose.

It wasn't like I said, Oh, we're going to start a digital church.

We, I just was open to anything and said, God, anything, anywhere you want.

And, um, we had a group that, uh, my small group that prayed for six months for me to have

God say something for me to do.

And, um, it, the plan was not for a digital only church.

It wasn't for a church for gamers.

Um, I wish I could say I was smart enough to plan for COVID.

Um, it, it was a hundred percent just prayed anything, anywhere in the world.

And, um, it, I remember where I was that I felt like God is as clearly as I've ever heard

him speak said, what about a game church?

And, you know, and I've, I've shared that before, but that's, that's essentially what

all of this came from was every day waking up and saying, okay, God, like today, what

does it look like to move forward?

And whatever that is, you know, um, cause I, I'm not smart enough to know it.

I can, I can put my skills.

I believe that, you know, Ephesians 2 10, that we were his workmanship created in Christ

Jesus for good works that he prepared in advance that we might do.

So I believe he prepared me in advance to do this good work.

Um, but that's still something he prepares, you know?

And so if God is prepared for you to do a digital church, um, he'll already have given

you skills and talents that have led you in this direction.

Like, thank you for, for thinking that way, but pray, like just pray and see what God will

do because at the end of the day, it's still Jesus's church.

Like he is going to fund your church.

He's going to give you the skills for, to do this church.

And so, I mean, I, I, I'd love to show you like how we're doing it, but I think ultimately,

um, if, if God's not in it, then that's really going to be your first, you know, that'll be

the biggest downfall.

And so I, you know, if I really had to give one, it sounds like a cop-out, but just pray

about it.

Like you really need to.

Yeah.

Don't cop out.

Um, Alina, what, what piece of advice would you have?

It would be, uh, if you're doing a digital only church, don't try and copy the physical

church.

Use, use your, use your, you know, your assets.

What do you have in this, in this environment that, that you don't have there that could

be used?

Um, so don't try and duplicate it.

Be nimble and, and, and use what you have instead of struggling to try and something else.

Be open to the Lord because people show you what it is.

Like, even if it takes time, like you said, it will just be like a process, but kind of

almost like you're on the ride.

Um, yeah.

So, remember.

I cannot tell you how many churches, even with church online, it's not even digital only

churches, but church online, how many churches are struggling with that?

This idea that we're just going to copy what we're doing in the physical space digitally.

And, and why is that not working?

That should work.

It worked physically.

Why doesn't it work digitally?

And it rarely, if ever does.

So that, that's a great piece of advice there.

Angela, um, any, uh, as we're landing the plane here, what, what piece of advice can, can you,

can you give to a potential digital only church planner?

Listen to these wise people for sure, uh, they know what they're talking about.

I would say have conversations with people that have been doing digital ministry.

So you, in this video, you see digital ministry expressed in different ways, but the, the bottom

line difference between these ministries and a traditional church is we're not building a

personal platform with our name on it.

Um, and we are building a space for people to come and to learn about Jesus every day.

And the more, and that's hard work.

And so most people, when they get into this and they're actually doing the work of discipleship,

which is super messy because it involves people just like me with a bunch of stuff, um, then,

you know, you want to quit.

So you do need to pray and you do need to realize that this looks nothing like what you think it

does until you're doing it.

I would say come and apprentice at one of our churches.

And that is a great way to see if you're, you know, if you, if it's really for you and

God will lead you to the right place out of that because you're being obedient and you're

called and then read what people are writing about, uh, online church, digital church.

I wrote a book that's tiny, but at the beginning of COVID, because there was so many people, uh,

so many of our pastors that were calling me and saying, how do I do this?

And I wanted them to know it's different.

It's not, um, just doing what you do in person online.

There's like a whole different way of doing this and being successful and making Jesus a

center of social media.

Um, and then of course, know that the Holy Spirit works.

He's working in your life so that you can share the gospel, but he's also working in the person's

life on the other side.

And so he's calling them to come.

And so you never have to worry about having enough people to, to, um, to disciple and to

love.

Uh, where Dave was talking about the prayer and that if it's funds you need, you know,

you'll supply that.

Um, like you said, it's the other side as well.

Um, the people, he will send them.

Um, you need help.

He will, people will step up.

Um, it's beautiful to see.

And I watch it every day, you know, so that's it.

That's, that's awesome.

Hey, um, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and Jake, uh, this has been, this has been awesome.

I've, I've, I've loved this time.

Um, Angela, if somebody wanted to pick up your book, uh, where, where, where do they do that?

Oh, uh, it's on Amazon backwards, online Jesus.

See, it's really, it really is.

It's like a, um, doesn't even have a spine.

It's so small.

It doesn't even have writing on the spine.

Couldn't even do that.

But it's, it's a, you know, overnight read.

It's about our story, but also how to build community disciple and care online.

So, uh, that's on Amazon, Kindle.

Uh, you can go to my website.

Yeah, it's all over.

Thank you.

Well, yeah, no problem.

We'll, we'll throw links in the, in the show notes to that.

And, um, and so it is a good read.

I read it, uh, whenever I had you on the last part, it was a couple of weeks ago.

When I, time flies, I have no idea.

I don't even know what day it is today.

Um, but, uh, we'll definitely, uh, you know, check out that book, dive, dive into it.

Stadia is as well.

Stadia is doing some digital only cohorts.

Uh, and so as you're praying through this, as, as Jay recommended, if you are interested

in dialoguing and digging deeper into what this idea of a digital only expression of church

would be and how maybe it fits within your, your, your model, um, you know, feel free to,

to, to dig in, have some conversations with us.

Check out stadia church planning.org slash, uh, digital D I G I T A L, uh, or hit me up

directly through social media, my contact infos in the show notes as well.

Would love to dialogue, uh, with you towards us if you're interested in it.

Um, it's literally my job to help replicate Jates, uh, Alina's and Angela's and others that

are out there that, that are doing this work, uh, for the kingdom and digital space.

So, uh, if you're thinking that way or have questions or want to dialogue, uh, feel free

to, to reach out and let's have that conversation.

But for each of you, like I said earlier, thanks for experimenting.

Thanks for, you know, jumping in this season and doing this, um, you know, maybe over the

past three years, plus or minus where there wasn't a lot of, um, support where there wasn't

a lot of look for it, where people kind of thought that you were crazy in the midst of

it.

And even now in the midst of COVID, some people probably still do think, think you're

crazy.

Uh, but there's the proofs in the, in the pudding or the proofs in the fruit or something awkward

that I should say there.

But the proof is really in these stories that, that you're, that you're telling of how you're

seeing the life change.

You're seeing people engage.

You're seeing people start to ask questions that they weren't asking before.

And so, um, you know, thankful so much for y'all's contributions into the kingdom digitally.

Uh, and, and on top of that, I'll be continuing to be praying that God moves through, uh, through

VR church, through love plan, through pursuit church life, uh, as well as the other churches

that are doing his job physically, his kingdom, uh, physically as, as well as digitally.

So thank you for being here, uh, for Jay, for Alina, for Angela, this is Jeff with the

church digital.

Thanks y'all for being here and, uh, we'll see you the next time here on the podcast.

Y'all have a good day.