EP094: The Challenge of Church Discipline in Digital Spaces

Episode 94 of the Church Digital Podcast, once again, powered by Stadia Church Planning.

Jeff here.

This was a really enjoyable, fun, this is probably one of the more deeper conversations

we've had here on the podcast.

You see, I don't know, maybe a couple weeks ago, I got asked to speak at a webinar, and

you know, they give you a list of questions, hey, there are the things we want to talk

about, so be prepared to answer this.

And one of the questions that I got for this particular event was, how do you discipline

someone in digital-only church?

And so, my knee-jerk reaction was, okay, like, it's not discipline, I mean, discipleship,

but when I kind of pulled the thread on a little bit, what they really meant was discipline,

like, not discipling someone, but like, there's sin in a church member's life, and the pastor

needs to speak into it.

What does that look like in digital-only space?

Phenomenal question, by the way.

Love the fact that we, the church, are now starting to wrestle with this idea of digital

church, even to the level of, how do we discipline someone in that space?

And so, like, I had a preconceived notion that I was like, hey, let me, this is probably

the answer I want to say.

But I paused, and I said, hey, let's do this instead.

I want to ask three church planters, three digital-only church planters, three digital

churches that have been existing for multiple years, and are all thriving and healthy, how

do they handle this idea of discipline within their digital-only expression of church?

And so, we opened up this Facebook thread, and we had such a phenomenal conversation within

Facebook Messenger that I decided, hey, we're going to make a podcast out of this.

And so, we invited them on the podcast so that you, listening audience out there, can listen

while we try to figure out how to do church discipline in a digital-only space.

So, here's who we're bringing to the conversation.

DJ Soto, not a stranger here to the podcast, been on quite a bit.

Lead pastor, VR church, three to four, five different virtual reality churches that are

existing, different continents, different platforms, phenomenal ministry happening there.

Angela Craig, Pursuit Church Live, the first social media church in the Assemblies of God

denomination, maybe all of them.

I don't know, a lot of, like, churches, and especially the reach that she's getting with

this, and she talks some about her church as well.

And we're also bringing in Jade Earhart.

Also, once again, no stranger here to the podcast.

Jade is with LoveClan, this video game church.

She's doing a lot of stuff on Twitch, a lot of stuff on Discord.

Some phenomenal, gifted, digitally-minded people that are seeing success within their church,

and God is continuing to bless their ministry.

And we asked all three of them, how do you discipline people within your digital-only expression

of church?

And I got to tell you, I love the responses.

I love this conversation.

Not a lot of tech, but it is going to apply.

Honestly, the heart of this is going to apply to the physical church as well as the digital

church and any digital-only expressions of church.

So I promise you, there's going to be stuff you're going to take away from this.

So DJ, by the way, DJ is in virtual reality.

So if you want to see DJ have this conversation in VR, swing over to my YouTube channel,

YouTube slash TheChurchDigital.

Over there, you can see it in YouTube, him interacting with his avatar.

Angela Craig from Pursuit Church.

Jade Earhart from LoveClan.

And myself, Jeff, with TheChurchDigital.

In a conversation that I'm calling Church Discipline in Digital Spaces.

Okay, everybody, here you go.

Maybe even just to kind of start the conversation out here, initial thoughts, when you guys look

at or when you think about church discipline, when you think about that accountability piece,

what are the immediate thoughts in context of your respective churches that kind of jump

out at you?

You know, when you ask that question, I'm thinking about how I did church when I worked

in a physical church.

And this, I'm not going to say this is every church, but typically church discipline went

like this.

So I'll give you the example of a husband has an affair.

And they come to the pastor's church office.

And as a pastor, you, you know, talk to them about the sin.

You talk to them about counseling, reconciliation.

And typically what would happen if one person wasn't into the, to whatever you were suggesting

as far as reconciliation process of counseling, then they would, one or two would leave the

church.

And then as a pastor, you're like, well, I've done all I can.

So look, my conscious is clean.

I need the, I need the emoji, like, but I think if we, and we've had previous conversations

about this is what does church discipline look like in a traditional church right now in four

walls?

And that was something that was disturbing to me because from the beginning of the Bible

to the end, God is talking about reconciliation with him and with others.

And so how can we do that better?

Well, it starts with the relationship.

Yeah, no, I agree with that.

And, you know, think about when Jesus and the woman caught in the act of adultery, you know,

he, she was restored in the moment, you know, go and send no more.

That's like a, you can kind of zoom in on that story and really pull out some ideas of spiritual

church discipline, but not to get sidetracked.

I do think that doctrine needs to be reviewed because more often than not, at least from

my perspective, I've seen church discipline be abused.

Spiritual abuse is a real thing.

Even here in 2020, I was, I saw a story where elders have gone beyond what scripture has guided

them to do in reconciliation and have really controlled people with fear and manipulation

and going beyond the mutual submission from a person in the church and their leadership.

And so, you know, I don't want to get sidetracked, but I feel like that needs to be looked at

because I just don't know personally if I've seen a good example of church discipline.

And as a matter of fact, when people bring that word up, it's like a red flag and just

kind of like immediately puts me on alert that they're, when someone brings that up, that

they have want to have control over people and not everybody.

I'm sure people have, have done it well, but it certainly is a red flag.

But I think in the Facebook thread that we were having before, I love that idea of reconciliation

rather than discipline.

I don't know, discipline just sounds so like final and like there's just an attitude behind

it where reconciliation, at least for me, maybe it's just semantics.

The spirit of that word represents what Christ does to restore and renew and to bring back.

And I think you see that expression with Paul to the Corinthian church who had some really

jacked up things going on there, but he was like, you know, well, that's interesting.

You know, I just thought of that.

Like Paul enacted, if you want to use the word church discipline with the church at Corinth.

And how did he do that?

Through a letter.

And he was hoping that letter, which would be, you know, interacted, interacted asynchronously,

if you will, would have an effect.

So that he, when he goes there to visit them in person, it had already been taken care of.

So that's like an example of before Facebook and virtual reality and discord, you know,

the church or spiritual reconciliation was happening via letters and I'm sure face to face.

And so that hasn't changed.

Like to think that church discipline and I'm going to retire that word for my, for me during

this conversation, uh, spiritual reconciliation, um, to think that that can't happen, um, you

know, on Facebook, um, in VR, when the first examples we've seen was done through letters,

I think you might, we might be missing that.

So, um, yeah, anyway, so those are my thoughts about, about spiritual reconciliation and a VR

church.

We, if I think about it, we do it quite a bit, but it's in the spirit of encouragement,

you know, uh, we're humans or humans, things are going to happen.

Attitudes are going to flare up.

Um, there is that passage, I think it's in Philippians where Paul was talking to two women

and saying, Hey, settle your, your disagreements, get that figured out.

And so even whether it's physical or, or social media or virtual reality, we've, um, we've

have had conversations.

And like Angela was saying, it's about relationships, conversations, um, discipleship, and, um, that

can be done in, in over the telephone.

It can be done through a letter.

It can be done face to face and with avatar to avatar.

And so the idea that you can't have that expression of Christianity in these digital

environments, um, I think is a miss to think that way.

So that's excellent.

I want to pull Jay into this because he had some really great examples of relationship.

And I think maybe for those that are listening that possibly aren't doing digital church might

wonder how that happens online, as far as building those deep one-on-one relationships.

And, and what DJ was saying from first Corinthians in chapter five, apostle Paul calls us to the

ministry of reconciliation.

And all those letters are written through the lens of love.

And so the example I gave earlier of the husband and the wife that come and the husband has an

affair.

Now that husband just sat in church on Sunday mornings, maybe once a month or twice a month

for 30 minutes, he had no relationship with anybody.

And so that's really where we need to examine, whether we have in-person or online, we need

to examine where that miss is, where that hole is, why people leave church when they fall

into sin, because we all do sin.

So Jade, share some of your experiences.

Um, no, that's a good example.

Actually, that was when I had written down first Corinthians five, that that's like, um, you

know, that they are associating with this, with this person.

Um, it's sexual immorality is like a highly rampant.

Um, and in that culture and that there's, um, that's a, I think what's important to note

is that's a very extreme case, you know, like that's a person who is sleeping with their

father's wife, you know, and it even says that's a, there's something even the pagans

don't tolerate, you know?

And, and, and yet you guys are associating with this.

Um, and so you, you need this to not be something that you associate with, you know, and that

you hand this person over, uh, to the destruction of their flesh.

If, if that's something that they are non, um, they're non-repentant of, you know?

Uh, and I think that's a, there's a, there's a very big difference between somebody who's

struggling with something and somebody who is non-repentant of something.

Uh, and I think a lot of times where we cross the line is if, um, if we're, you know, trying

to, um, if we notice somebody is sinning and then we, therefore we're like, well, they continue

to sin with this.

And so I guess we're going to just, you know, whatever that there's a big difference between

that and just saying, yeah, I, I'm non-repentant of this and I don't care at all.

I think that's, that's first and foremost.

The second thing is like Matthew 18, um, where there's, uh, the, probably the biggest example,

but if somebody sins against you, then you go to them one-on-one.

Um, and, and what I, what I think is, um, interesting here is, I mean, that, that pretty clearly says

if somebody sins against you, you know, um, this is a sin that happens directly to you.

So then you go to that person one-on-one and if they're not willing to hear you, basically

again, unrepentant, um, then you go with somebody else just to make sure that it's not just you

that's hearing these things.

And if you go with somebody else and they're still non-repentant, then you go before the church.

And that's, I mean, that's like, that's the case where it leads.

It's very clear.

It says, here's the path that leads to essentially excommunication.

Um, but it's really based on the, on the idea of unrepentance.

Um, so in, in both of those cases, it's somebody who has a pattern of sin, um, that doesn't show

struggle or acknowledgement of it.

And so then it leads to, this is the stead, you know, this, this stage that we get to.

Um, I just think that's important to note because I think that's really where the heart of,

in my opinion, that's probably where the heart of people would come from.

If they were from a modern church background, not knowing online church, not thinking at

all about, uh, that these are verses that they would probably come to mind.

It would be like, let's, well, let's talk about these things.

So let's get them out in the open.

Um, what we've mentioned in chat before this, uh, and what I think is worth just bringing up

again, um, any of these things are just as important online as they are in person.

And, uh, a lot of the times they're done just as poorly in person as they are done online.

So if, if there's anything that you're looking at and you're like, wow, man, I, you know,

that's a really great point.

Um, you know, yeah, let's do that.

Let's, let's, before we look at the, the online church and say the online church is, is not doing

this effectively, it's a good chance that we're also not doing it effectively, uh, in a, in a

physical church.

Uh, and so those are not things that we need to, you know, condemn an online church for

or whatever, but, um, that we need to, as a group, as a collective church, we need to all

look at and say, how can we do this effectively?

Um, and so with that, with that side, yeah, let's move forward and like, let's discuss ways that we

can, as a local church and as an online church, as a body of believers, how can we work towards a

better, um, capital C church?

And, um, I, I, I, I think it's actually kind of funny, um, and maybe not coincidental that we did start

off by accidentally thinking, oh yeah, he's talking about discipleship, um, not discipline.

And, uh, you know, that's, it's important and, um, and kind of, it's funny because it's like, yeah,

that's almost the answer to a lot of our, a lot of our woes, right? Like, uh, discipline, um, comes,

comes as a step in discipleship, like it, as it should, um, it's the, it's the continual teaching

of, of people. And I actually really like the idea of, okay, yeah, you, you want to discipline

somebody. Um, okay, well then you should have lots of steps that lead up to that. Even biblically,

it shows an example and says, this is the steps that you take. And that's what I think of when I

think of discipleship is you're leading people down a journey, uh, to being closer in a direction

towards Jesus. And, um, that, that does not mean, uh, if I was, you, you would be out of your mind.

There's no church that thinks, yes, let's start a church in Vegas. And the first day that people

walk through the door, we say, yeah, tell us everything. And then we're going to, you know,

we're going to really slam in India because, you know, that's what the Bible says. You'd be like,

well, no, I mean, there's a lot of steps that take before they get up to that point. Exactly. And so we

need to have, we need to have discipleship because we need to have a relationship with somebody,

not because it makes it easier for us to say, oh yeah, you know, we can just really slam it into

you, but because we don't care as much about, um, slamming it into somebody as we do about this

person's eternal lasting relationship with Jesus. And it's just natural human that if you're to just

slam somebody into that, well, you're judging somebody, you know, am I going to judge those

outside of the church or am I going to judge those inside the church?

There's a, there's a, a, a mistake, a mystique there. There's a, an image sometimes that we're,

we're, we're using the church discipline, or even we're, we're doing the discipleship as a way of,

of controlling people, uh, of, of getting people to do what we want them to do. And I'm not even

making this about digital. I, I think it's physical. I think it's, it's maybe just a perception. Maybe

it's American church. Maybe it's outside. I can't speak outside as well as in the U S but you know,

if what we're talking about here, it's at the, at the church leadership level, it's, it's really,

it's not about control. Is it what, what is it really when you get to the heart of it? What's it

about? I think that there's a big hole in, in traditional church, at least the ones that I've

worked in and, and I'm an era leader in our network of 340 churches. So like a pastor, two pastors,

and we've gotten into a totally different discipleship model of Sunday morning and small,

small groups are fantastic. But my mentor, Don Ross, um, taught me something that really has worked.

And this is how he transformed his, um, his, his, his, he's the author of turnaround church for pastors.

And he transformed his church by doing a one-on-one

discipleship model. And that, so we've taken that on and that's really where the hard work is. And I,

I see that in each of my friends ministries here online that are here in this podcast is that we are

really one-on-one with people and, and it's tough and it's tiring. And so if I'm to say to a pastor

that's in a church right now, you need to do all the things you're doing for your church and disciple

people one-on-one like Jesus, um, did like the apostles did. Um, we set it up so that when someone

comes in, they walk with another person who's already mentoring someone else. And so they learn that

way. And it's, it's that daily connection that we have the opportunity to do online and digitally

that we don't in, in church and especially in a pandemic right now. So, um, that's how we're doing

it and seeing an incredible amount of fruit. And I will give some examples later, but I want to hear

from everybody else.

Oh, I was just going to mention, like, I want to, I actually do want to hear an example from you,

but, um, no, just like what Angela is saying and a point that's worth making, uh, is that we,

we often see that people say, well, you know, this person's been coming because there is a timeframe.

I do believe there, there is a certain timeframe at which things need to be said. Uh, and

especially, uh, this person, when I'm thinking about in my head, the example of Paul saying,

well, we know that this person has this, that's happening. They are sleeping with their, uh,

father's wife or whatever, you know? I mean, this is like extreme example, but for Paul to have heard

it means that it not, I mean, he doesn't have Facebook. It's not like he logged in that day

and somebody said, Hey, by the way, you know, it's like it, it was heard. It was known amongst

the congregation. It was then spread all the way to him who threw somebody else. And he had time to

write a letter that then got, you know, like this is a longstanding thing. So there is something about

time that happens in this. Um, and with online, we, rather than in a physical church where we can say,

well, uh, yeah, you have Sunday morning and then you go home and then you're, you know, I don't see

you again until the next Sunday. I might see you again on a small group. Definitely not everybody,

you know, and that this is, this is a big difference from online. Um, and why I think

that we really do need to have some hybrid where we're meeting in, in, uh, online, if you're only

meeting local, because you just have more opportunities to meet. Uh, and, and I don't

really care how you do it. If it's like, Oh, we're going to do a go live on Facebook,

Facebook, or we're going to do a zoom meeting or whatever this is, but you need some way to meet

throughout the week because that's just coin in the idea that you're like actually having your

conversations weekly that you're having are more during the week that you're having all things in

common. You can't have that. If you're just having an hour on Sunday. Hold on. I'm back. I want to back

up. I want to back up. Jake, you're, you're 28, 27. I've had this conversation with you. I'm sorry.

Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. I don't remember. You're, you're telling me, uh, and, and, and let me

just play devil's advocate here. Cause, cause somebody out there is saying it right now. You're

telling me that you think that we should be physical church should be meeting more online

because that way they're going to grow closer together. If they're meeting more online, instead

of just meeting physically unpack that logic for you. In my brain, uh, we all meet online. Of course,

we're going to meet online. It's, it's the complete opposite where it's like, it's just weird that we

meet, you know, in person every week. I don't meet all my friends on person every week. I've

moved all over the United States and there's no way that I would be able to meet with my

friends. Most of my friends that I meet with regularly, I've never lived within three States

of them. I mean, uh, we just met online and we've been hanging out online and then, you know,

we went to Japan together. You know, I don't know how many, I, it's almost like, like, and

it wasn't that weird. I met them for the first time and I was like, Oh, here you go.

Which like DJ, it's like, Oh, I'm meeting your, your physical avatar. That's cool. I'd like,

you know, we usually just chat online and it's great to actually meet you in person. And, um,

and people are like, wasn't I just, didn't I just transform your relationship with them? And like,

no, I mean, not really. It was cool that I got to hang out with them in Japan, but, um,

what really transformed our relationship was, uh, years of hanging out, uh, in a discord call,

which is for the don't know. It's basically like what we're doing right now in a zoom meeting,

just not always with video, sometimes just with chat and, um, and, and getting to unpack kind of

the things that get that make them tick and the way that they think and, uh, like hanging out with

them. Just, just, I don't know, like just hanging out and it doesn't have to be in person, but I'm

actually getting to know them better. Um, and from that there, when I meet them in person,

it's like, I, we just pick off where we left off last when we were chatting online and our

relationship is, I know them way better. Like when we, when they order something, I could have

probably ordered for them. You know, I don't know how many people in your church you can order

their meal for, but I already know what they like and what they don't like. And they, they're,

they're actively looking for a place that's vegetarian for me because they know that's what I,

you know, it's just these thoughts. Like I see something and I go, Oh, you're going to love this

and I'm going to buy this for you. And, and, and it's just something, it's just different. I don't

know. That's you. How can you get that if you only have an hour on Sunday? And I hate having to

use that so often, but it's just that it's just the logic is like, let's just go to, we're going

to go to church where we do our sermon. And then you think that somehow, first of all, they don't

even know you. They know the Bible, which is amazing. They should absolutely know the Bible,

but that's the meeting in the court temples. There's, you're completely throwing out that

they met in their homes daily. You know, if you're not eating meals with them, then how

are you getting to know them? They don't know you. They just know the Bible, which is not

bad. They need to know the Bible, but they also need to know you because you're the one

that's going to have to tell them, Hey, this is what the Bible says. And if you want to do

discipline correctly, you have to do discipleship correctly. And if you're not doing discipleship

correctly, then you're, you know, you have no relationship with them. And if you have no

relationship with them, then you have no right to tell them anything because all you're telling

them is what's already been written in the Bible, which is absolutely fine. They need to follow

that, but they're not going to hear it from the Bible. They, or else they would have already done

it. They need to hear it from you. And that's why you have to disciple. It's why the Bible says very

clearly go and make disciples and teach them, right? Teach them to follow all that I've commanded you.

How are you going to teach them to follow all that they've commanded you if you don't have a

relationship with them? It's, I, it, then we might as, you know what, we can all just quit. We can all,

none of, we don't need, we don't need sermons. We just have YouTube and it'll just literally be the

Bible project. And it'll just be there telling you, you know, here's what the Bible says. And we,

we, none of us need to exist because we're just, you know, another voice that's spitting what the

Bible says. Like they don't need that. They need, they need a pastor who actually cares about them.

They need somebody that's going to be there for them when they get sick. That's going to actually

go to their house. And that's just not going to happen. You know, it's, it's all the points that

they make that they say, yeah, you need somebody that, how is online going to work if somebody can't

go to your, you know, your, your hospital when you're sick. And it's like, yeah, somebody needs to

do that. We, you have to have that, but that's the same problem that we have in a local

church as we have in an online church. So if we're not doing, if we're not both looking at each other

and saying, Hey, like these people are doing community really, really well, but maybe they're

not having the Bible as, you know, like they're, they're not doing discipline well. Well, you're

not doing relationship well. And so you really need to think about how do you do your relationship

better? We all need to learn from each other, but it's not going to happen unless it's with the

view of discipleship, which all of us are not doing very well.

Yeah. One thought, one thought I had off, uh, what Jay was saying was, um, you know,

some of my leaders, not even just people in the church, many of my leaders, I never met

physically for like a year or two. Um, after we first met in the digital sphere and they're

leaders, they're active, they're, um, part of the church. And so it's when you meet them,

it's just a moment of, Oh, here's what you look like. Or, you know, maybe we've seen their

picture in social medias and, Oh, this is how tall is how short you're whatever. And within

seconds, you're just picking up where you left off. You know, you were, we're old buddies,

we're old friends. Um, and so I think that's something that's significant. And I think when

you look back at scripture and you see like in the book of Acts, it was the day to day meeting,

breaking of bread and prayers. And, and so that was in that tight local city town construct.

And so as time has gone by in this modern society, we're stretched out transportation and all

that. And so in this context, in this construct, it makes sense to meet once on a Sunday, maybe

once on a small group, but the glue to replicate that house, that daily experience can be the

digital sphere. That social media discord is fantastic. Uh, virtual reality, man, that's

what makes, that's like the glue of it all, I think. And to not use that or to dismiss that,

I think is to remove the glue to remove the mirroring, um, that, uh, you know, new Testament

church experience of day to day, uh, just saying hello. I mean, it doesn't have to be this like 10

hour a day thing, but man, five minutes chatting on discord, you know, man, you're just connecting.

You're just, um, it's just so powerful. So, um, I think the day to day of that early church

experience can be fulfilled through digital tools. I absolutely agree. That was awesome.

Preach it, Jay. I'm telling you, that was just great. I'm thinking about in church, if we were,

you know, if people come to your church and the average church is 50 to 75 now, and you were to

actually, um, physically connect with that person, each person that walked through those doors, that's

what we do. Uh, we're able to do on Facebook and we have a team of people that basically anybody who

comes, um, through the doors, we, we connect with them on messenger. And so this has been the best

way. So we have messenger mentors is what we call it. And so they're one-on-one, um, connecting with

people, sending them a message. How can we pray for you? How can we get you connected? What are you

interested in? Uh, and, and it's incredibly powerful. And so the example I can tell just from

in the middle of the night, last night in one of our messenger groups, we try to keep them, you know,

10 to 20 people, um, to make, you know, the church smaller than, and it's a daily, it's that daily

getting, um, God's word. We're talking, we're going through the new Testament a year. So we post

from that. Um, but just to wake up and see, because there's people from all over the world,

uh, the body of Christ taking care of each other. So we have someone, um, I'll call him Joey. Um,

he has not been sleeping at night. And so I am asleep while he is messaging this group and people from all

around the world that are in his group in Africa, in Mexico are, are messaging back, you know, we're

praying for you. We've got you. And he is so desperate. I mean, this isn't just a, an not

sleeping problem. This is a, I think I'm going to take drugs to sleep. I think I don't trust God

because I don't hear him answering my prayers. I, you know, where is he? I've been praying for weeks

and I can't sleep. And, and so to have other people, um, besides me in the group that are

ministering to him, that he's built relationship with them where he could be honest. He could say,

I think I'm going back to the way of drugs that I was at before I came to pursuit, um, that they

could be there. And then we could speak into that. That's if someone just goes to church on Sunday,

who are they talking to? And so that's the power of what we have, um, to be able to press in

to that. We have to have relationship first for them to trust us, that we can tell them the Bible

is true and God wants your life to be whole. That's why we have these, um, the discipline or the,

you know, as you might say, but it's all about record, um, reconciliation, you know, to relationship

with God and other people. And so it's really a privilege to be called to digital ministry. And I do

agree that churches that are in person should be using it, um, daily. It's awesome. So thanks guys.

That's awesome. I was having a conversation, um, recently where, um, I was talking about this idea

of, of being relational, building relationships and sure. And this, this, this part of the conversation

goes digital as, as well as the church on lines and churches that are going digital. Uh, the, the person

says to me, Jeff, what kind of relationships can you really have with the person? All they are is a red

number on a screen. And it was this illusion of, Hey, you know, they're just, they're just a stat

in church online platform, or it's a, it's a plus one on, on a, on a Facebook feed. But Angela,

a lot of the stuff that I hear you talking about is, I mean, one-on-one discipleship, uh, multiple

continents, uh, you know, this, this, uh, messenger mentors, which I'm going to reference that. I love

that idea. Uh, the, the power of that's very cool. It there, there's talk to me a little bit

about that. We're hearing little bits of it, but the, the practicalness of these relationships,

how, how they're developed, how you're getting the volunteer leaders. All of you are very strong

in your churches, your digital churches, utilizing these volunteers to do this. Like, talk to me

about some of these relationships. Tell me some more of these stories where these are not just

plus ones that are showing up in a web browser, where these are actually people who have names

that are, that are involved within, within your church. Uh, DJ, why don't you go first?

Before I talk about the practice, I just, let me just touch on like, when someone says,

can you have relationships, can you do discipleship? I feel like maybe they don't know what the tools

that are out there. There is a zillion things that you could pick from. You know, we're talking

about Facebook, Discord, Marco Polo, Telegram, you know, there's, there's like a zillion video

chats, you know, chat, you know, apps, voice chat, you just name it. You just go on the app store

and there's so many ways to connect. Um, and so I think for people to kind of get into it and try it,

especially if you're doubting, I don't know if I can do this, try it out, you know,

create a little experimental life group or a small group and see what it's like. I think

you'll be pleasantly surprised, like, especially if you, you pick the right tool. Um, and even if

you, uh, just experiment for a little bit, I think it's just going to just show breakthrough

and you're going to say you're closer, uh, than you were before. And, um, I think I was talking,

let's see, I think it was a, from Dallas, uh, theological seminary. Um, one guy there who's

kind of dabbling in VR was trying to convince, um, some of his, uh, seminary teachers to get into,

like, digital teaching, trying to encourage that. A lot of said, no, this has to be done online.

And then, well, COVID happened. And so they was, they were forced to. And one of the professors

is like, I'm closer to my students I've ever been. I feel like I know them more than in the,

in the physical class. And for us, we're like, yes, you know, um, yes, we know. And so I think

if we could just like package that little story up and spread that around to those who are really

doubtful about, um, you know, digital discipleship experience, you know, reconciliation, all of this

stuff. Um, I think they would be just a surprise, but yeah, so I'm just thinking of the tools and

technology to dive into, but, um, from a practical way, you know, we're not reinventing the wheel.

It still goes back to that conversations, uh, face-to-face hellos and how are yous and let's

journey together and life is tough. And, um, so it's nothing that like, I think at VR church,

we're not doing anything different than what's been done for a millennia, just relationships

and connections and discipleship. So, uh, there isn't like a, what's the, there's not like a secret

sauce, you know, it's just, um, old fashioned to one degree in a new form. So you mix those two

and you have what we're doing. Anyone else have a good story, a practical application?

I would, um, piggyback on Jade, uh, when he was talking about going to Japan with people he met

online and how they knew each other. And I didn't know, I think I only knew two of my team member

and the first team members in the first two years, I'd only known and met them, maybe actually three.

And, and so the first in-person that we had a year ago in October, it was as if a big family

was coming together and we had always known each other and they had been in my house. They had,

you know, via video. Uh, but I think I always, um, tell pastors that if, if they want to check it

out, they can come and just be part of what we do at Pursuit. I have yet to have anybody take me up on

that. But, but I think it does, when you're in it, you can, um, you can really explore all the things

like DJ was saying. We use Marco Polo a lot. I mean, there's, um, there's so such incredible

opportunity to build relationships with people and they just, everybody, including me, I mean,

has the human need to be seen, to be recognized. And, um, social media, digital spaces have given us

that place to see people like God sees them and to pull out the best in them and to love them right

where they're at, not how they should be. And, uh, that is really the draw for people, at least at

our church. And I know from the stories I've heard, um, so, and so many stories of people that couldn't

get connected to a local church or, or left church because they were hurt or, um, have chronic illness.

There's lots of, lots of reasons people don't go to church anymore. And this is a way to help them

be seen by God, be seen by us and be pulled in, you know, cause they have such a great purpose

and God has a plan for them. So that's been, it's been, it's blowing my mind. Um, again,

I just feel so privileged to be part of this group and, um, thank you for hosting.

That's awesome. I, yeah, I question just even to, to build on that, Angela, I'm curious because

we even mentioned earlier, this idea of, um, you know, reconciliation, and I even want to talk

about how that works in, in, in the digital space and what that, what that restoration process

looks like. But even before we get there, I'm curious, rough percentages, like describe what you

guys are seeing in a digital church in context of, uh, de-churched, unchurched, you know, so maybe

people that are, are burned and turned off of, of the typical model of a physical church using it

that way. Uh, maybe unchurched, not at all, uh, comfortable, not versed in it at all. Maybe the

digital expression of church is really the first time they've, they've been to church. Where are you

at DJ? Oh man, that's, um, that's like most of who come to VR churches, those who maybe I don't

identify with faith. I, I'm surprised, well, maybe not surprised, but it's fascinating to hear someone

say, I've never been to church before. I hear that several times a month and it's amazing. It's

beautiful. I love that hearing that moment. They're in church, never been to a church before. So it's

not like a de-churched thing where they used to go as a kid and now they don't. They've never stepped,

put in a church. It's wild. And so, um, I think it back to when VR church was first planted.

I think for a good two to three months, there was no other Christians. It was just,

you know, a room full of like, you know, atheists, agnostics, you know, people just kind of seeking

spiritually. And I think that shaped how we, how I preach and how we teach, but it also is indicative

of what's happening today. I, I mean, you walk into our, to virtual reality church and there's no doubt,

you know, people that are atheists and agnostic are walking around hanging out and people ask me

all the time. Well, maybe not all the time, but they just ask me, you know, why is an atheist come

to VR church? And I think people are still just curious about spirituality. They're curious about

faith. Um, and they just want to have a conversation about it. And that'd be tough to do, like walk up to

a church and, you know, start drumming up conversation about atheism and evolution or, you know,

creationism, whatever. And, uh, they're able to do that in these digital environments. And, um,

if you've cultivated an inclusive attitude, uh, towards these conversations and not resistant,

like, uh-oh, um, then you, it really provides opportunity for breakthrough for people. You

realize, oh, you know, we can have these conversations and it's not threatening and it's, it's very

beautiful. So anyways, to, to what you're saying, man, it's, it's all I see is what you've described

people who are unchurched, de-churched, and have never been to church before. And it, that is

the norm, uh, not the exception. Yeah. I mean, same. I, it's, most of the people that I speak

to, um, they really aren't turned off to learning about the Bible and they're not even turned off

to the idea of Jesus. They, they actually like the idea of that somebody loves them, a God loves

them and wants to see them reconciled. Uh, that's not like, I don't, I, it's kind of mind blowing

that we're like, why would they ever, why would they not? I mean, like, that's a, that's completely

our own narrative that we think that for some reason that they would not want that. Uh, they

do what they don't want is they don't want church culture. Like they, the ones that have grown up in

church and that, and then left, they left for a reason. Like, and most of the time it's not because

Jesus loves them and wants, you know, to see them reconciled. And most of the time, it's not even that

the Bible says there's a list of things that you should or shouldn't do. Uh, if you ask them, most of

the time it's like, well, I tried church and it was really judgmental. Like, okay. You know, I tried

church and, um, I just fell, I got, I fell into the cracks, you know, I, I tried church, but it was

like, what was the point? I, it was just telling me what the Bible said. So I still believe what the

Bible says, but I just don't go to church anymore. I mean, like I hear these all the time. This is the

same thing over and over again. And, um, you know, I actually really like whenever I can talk to

somebody who hasn't been to church because then there's not this barrier that I have to get past at the

beginning of it, you know? Uh, so I, instead I can just be like, here's what the Bible says. Like,

let's talk about that and let's have a relationship and let's move further into that. Um, so yeah, like,

uh, yeah, I, I, I even where, where I'm at now, I'm fine. If people just want to say like, oh, well,

you know what you're doing is, um, is missionary work. That's fine. Whatever. If you don't want to

call a church, I don't even care anymore. But what, yeah, I, I spent a lot of my time live streaming now,

right now. That's what I'm doing, right? I quit my job working at a church so that I could

really take this very seriously. And so I've been live streaming like 17 hours a day, something like

that. Um, you know, every other day, sometimes every day, the last three days, it's been at least 17

hours. Uh, and so I spent a lot of time essentially playing video games and talking to a camera. It's

kind of what we're doing right now, but imagine how much time I can have. You know, you can say it's a

number, but I see their names. I see when they're chatting, you know, that's who I'm talking to.

And if I'm, if I'm a lot, if I'm live for 17 hours, this person is going to see every way that I

interact. When I'm in a game, they're going to see the way that I interact with people, you know, and

they're going to see that it's something different. So first and foremost, I got to cultivate that my

life has to reflect God's. If, if my life is not becoming more and more like Jesus, then I am not going

to have anything to share with anybody because they're going to, they're going to look at my

life and go, well, you look like everybody else. And they're going to continue on. But I regularly

get people in the game that are like, wow, like I've never met somebody so nice. I don't know why

you're so nice. Right? Like, and, and, and I have to like, that's not something that just happens.

You have to actively say, well, this is how Jesus is. This is how I see in the Bible I'm supposed to be.

So that's how I'm going to be. Like, I'm going to let it continue to transform my mind. You're like,

I'm going to, I'm going to let it actually affect the way that I act. And people are going to see

that. And through the acting of how my life is seeing me regularly in front of a camera, the way

that I respond to people, the way that I talk to people, then it's like, okay, now I'm, I'm going

to, I'm going to listen to what you have to say. You know, I've seen it. You know, and that it,

we see that time and time again in, in, in Jesus, where it's, they, they go and they

question him and they're like, well, you know, we've seen, we've seen it. We've seen the way

that he's acted. We see the things that he says. Um, and so through that, he gets a following

that's more like people are, yeah, like, sure. Everything that he's doing is, you know, create,

and then he'll say something after he's met with them for a while. And then they're like,

whoa, Hey, that's too much. And then kind of, it's kind of like ebb and flow of the water.

And I kind of feel like that when I, where I'm live streaming, I'm just chatting with people.

People are way on top of it. They're feeling it. And then I'm like, all right, then I'm going to

give you a little bit more, you know, like, this is a little bit, maybe too much for you. And people

are kind of like, whoa, we just started talking about God. I'm really not ready for that. I just

kind of, you know, wanted to hang out with a nice person. And they're like, Hey, well, you know,

you don't get one without the other. Cause I wouldn't be a naturally nice person if it wasn't for

God working in my life. And the, you know, I'd be selfish if it wasn't for, for this and so on.

And some hear it and some don't, you know? And so when I think about this kind of

relationship, Evan flow, you know, some people are like, yeah, amen, right up, right off the top,

you know, because they're already in it and they already understand, but then other people don't.

And like, if you don't have that tension, um, then you're probably doing the revolving door thing

where you found a bunch of people that came from the church down the street and they just really

like your worship better. And so, you know, that, I don't know how many times you've pulled your

church, but you know, if you don't have people that are actually, you know,

you know, I was just thinking, you know, I know, I know, you're not looking for like, you know,

validation as a church, but just, let me just throw in my two cents as an observer. I've observed

your discord that you've merged with the community with, with Twitch or vice versa, whatever that,

that whole experience and what you've done there, um, is at a shepherding level that most, uh,

pastors would not get to. And I'm not trying to put, you know, us versus them and I'm not trying to

pit. But if we're going to say your thing is just a side little nothing, or, you know, it's cute what

you're doing over there. No, it's significant. The shepherding of the pastoring that you're doing is

more pastoring than most pastors do. And again, I'm not trying to start a, you know, confrontation,

but, um, I think people need to see that, you know, when they like Jeff, when they question you,

like, I don't know about this, you know, it's just a dot man experience love clan on, on Twitch,

then on discord. And you see the shepherding, there's no doubt. There's a powerful

ministry there. It's a church. It's like the gathering of believers and, and the word is

being ministered. And so, um, it's just powerful. Um, and I think everyone should, should experience

it before they, uh, dismiss it as, as insignificant. Yeah. And you're seeing fruit from that DJ.

Exactly. Right. And so one of the reasons why I love having conversations with, with planners

like, like you three, because we're, we're seeing the fruit of the labor come in through these

relationships and, and it's, and it's growing and it's multiplying and, and, uh, you know,

the challenge of Jade and, and we, you and I, we've had this conversation already. It's, it's,

we need more Jates. We need more DJs. We, we need more Angela's out there doing this. And so I'm,

I'm curious. I don't want to ask the question, like you, the mentality of, of Jade, which you said

earlier, Hey, like, um, I'm, I'm playing video games. I'm a nice guy. Um, but the nice guys

because of Jesus and I'm going to share, and I'm going to talk about that. And so like, I'm going

to be, you know, digital missionary, whatever, whatever the language is I'm, I'm using my circle

of influence, um, digitally to connect people to Christ. And through that getting engaged in,

in this idea of a digital only church, my question would be is how easy, how difficult,

what are the challenges to kind of reproduce that? Like carbon copy, Jates, DJs, Angela's,

as you're working with your leadership teams, a lot of these people, you don't know in physical

space. You've not, Angela, I think you made the mention earlier. It was a year or so before you

met a lot of the people that, that you've been working with. Um, so like, are there inerrant

challenges in growing and discipling people to that level that they're actually able to

lead at the level that, that you yourself are leading?

I can speak to that. And I think everyone would probably say the same thing as it goes back

to the relationship that we build every day that we are, um, digital space has a much more

vulnerable approach as far as, uh, we are in each other's lives. There's, I remember the first time I

met, um, one of our team members, she did, um, interpreting for the deaf community. And I met her,

I was at a conference in Las Vegas and she happened to be in a, in a conference at Las Vegas. And so we

met up and we're having coffee and like five minutes in the conversation. I was like, well, I don't really have

anything else to say because you know, everything like we've been talking online up until we met in

person. So I think actually you have a much better view into someone's spiritual life, into their

relationship with Christ, um, into their, you know, everything that they're doing, then you do if

someone's just coming to your church once or twice a week, um, in person, because you are building that

daily relationship with them. And, and so I don't have any, any hesitation when putting people in

place. I think that could be a whole nother, um, a whole nother podcast or conversation would be about

keeping teams safe because we do a lot of work around that, um, keeping teams and the people they serve

safe because that happens in the church as well. Um, but really it does have to do with that building,

um, of relationship with leads to trust and vulnerability and authenticity. And, um, that

way we can, um, definitely put people into leadership spots a lot quicker because they're growing faster.

They're transforming faster because they're in the word they're in community every single day,

not just a couple of times a month. Here, here's the thing. And this may bleed over into the physical

space, people who are doing church, church online as well. And really the first place that I heard

this was out of Jay Cranda, online pastor over at Saddleback, a friend here on the podcast. He says,

people in, in, in physical space, maybe this is pre COVID. I don't know how COVID is really going to

change this, but in physical space, uh, people would often connect to Christ before they would connect

to community. Uh, but with church online services, Jay would, would say that they found that people,

Saddleback, people were connecting to community before they were getting connected to, to Christ.

Uh, and, and, and oftentimes when, when I had the conversations with, with online pastors,

um, and digital pastors, it's, it's that common theme where people are looking for that community,

that relationship piece, um, in, in the community space before they were really give the credibility

for the conversation about Christ. I'm just curious, digital only churches, virtual reality,

Facebook video games, you know, everything that you guys are doing. Um, would you agree to that

community before Christ, uh, mentality with the people? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That's

like, I don't, we haven't done official surveys or whatever, just by observation, like 90% of that

is certainly just connecting with the community and just journeying along and, uh, people kicking the

tires of this whole Christ thing. You know, what is this all about? And, and seeing if it's the real

deal. Right. And so, uh, that is a, that's a powerful statement. I, I, I believe that's true

for us. And we've seen that we've seen even just recently in atheists, um, uh, come to Christ within

the past couple of weeks. And, but he's been with us for like six to eight months, um, just hanging

around, even volunteering and, and being a part of the community. Um, and then, um, you know, he's

always said, ah, I'm an atheist. I'll help out, but I'm an atheist. You know what I mean? I was like,

yeah, that's cool, man. Just come hang out and do your thing, you know? And so, um, there was a

couple of weeks ago where he sat down and he goes, I think this, this faith in Christ thing

is real for me. Um, and so that, yeah, I don't know what else to say about that. Then a hundred

percent in green. We've seen that a hundred percent.

Yeah. And actually I think I, um, sorry. Yeah. I also like, I cultivate that. Like, so when

I think about a, um, a local church, it makes sense that people would go there for Christ

before they would go for a community, because if I'm looking for community and I'm an atheist,

I mean, I, I go to a bar. I'm not like, oh man, I'm going to go find community. Let's go

to church today. Like that's, it's not like, that's not the mental thought. And I, sometimes

I think we just kind of like, like, why, why would they, why, why would they go to a church

for community that you wouldn't like, if you were an atheist, you want to go to a church

for community. You don't, you don't go, well, I'm really bored on a Wednesday. Maybe I'll

go to the local mosque and like, uh, see how they're hanging out. You know, like you don't

do that. And you, and why, because that's just not, it's weird and it, and it is weird.

So I think that's the same thing with, for, for me is like, yeah. And those are the people

that I'm not trying to reach. Like, I'm not trying to reach the already church because

they already have a church. It's not like I'm trying to say, let's just pull people out

of churches. I don't want revolving door. And now you're online and you were a local

church. And like, those are the people I'm trying to reach. Like I'm trying to reach

people who are looking for community because they don't have one, you know, and like, okay,

let's, let's talk to those people. So that's, that's kind of actually why I think about, I'm

okay with if people are like, let's, they don't want to call it a church, whatever. That actually

helps my cause because, um, my goal is to reach people, um, not to build a church. Like, like,

and if that happens and that we build a church and everybody looks at it and goes, wow, that's

a church from the outside and people from the, from online are going, well, I'm just

looking for a community. I'm fine. Then I'll call it a community. I don't call them small

groups. I call them community groups because I'm like, yeah, it's a small community of people

and you hang out. And if you say small group, they're like, I don't know what that is. You

know? So a lot of it I think is, um, yes, it's, it's people that are looking for community,

but you got to find ways to, to kind of how, how to, how do you connect with people first?

Um, and then this is where that is. So for me, it's like, yeah, I'm playing video games,

you know, that, that just happened to be the thing for me because I'm trying to find a group

of people that are not already reached. Right. Um, and that happens, that is the same thing.

It's like, well, yeah, let's go. Let's, this isn't working. Let's go to the Gentiles.

You know? I mean, it's kind of a similar thing where I'm just, Hey, like, this is the group

of people that needs it. And so that's the group of people that I'm going for. And just like

Paul, I'm going to kind of tailor my message. And like, you know, when I go into the, uh,

what is it? The eropagus, you know, like I'm going to, I'm going to change the way I say

things. I'm going to be like, well, you know, I see you guys are very, um, spiritual, you

know, you guys are very wisdom, you know, based, you guys have statues and you guys are obviously

trying to figure this thing out. Um, but you have this one that's to the unknown God. So,

Hey, I actually happen to know that God. Would you like me to tell you about him? You

know, and he's, that's, he would never give that speech to, um, the apostles, you know,

why? Because it's just, it's not, it's not the way that you communicate with them. And

so it's going to look different. Like the way that I communicate with people online in an

online space for gamers that I know are non-Christians, it's going to look different, but it's the same

message. It's not like I'm going to change the message, but I'm going to give them stuff. Um,

that's for the stage that they're at, you know, uh, and I, how am I going to know the

stage that they're at if I don't have a relationship, you know? And so that's, it all

comes full circle, but that that's where it is for me.

I think one, one thought I think is interesting is when you think of unreached people groups,

oftentimes we, um, define that through geography, like, you know, Africa, China. Um, and by the

way, that's still true, but in this new digital era, um, there is the most, the largest unreached

people group is the gaming community. And I think that if the church kind of framed it from that

perspective, it was like, like as an evangelical America, we wouldn't, we wouldn't be okay with

unreached people groups, you know, massive. We would do something about it, you know, funding

missionaries. We would kind of do that. And if we start to think of unreached people groups

from the perspective of the digital sphere, virtual reality, we realized, man, there's

whole continents, so to speak, that are not being reached and it's just not on our radar. So we

needed to think of it in that way. Um, and, um, you know, what Jade's doing is powerful. What

Angela's doing is, is, is, is so compelling and it's very powerful. And just one quick

story. I don't know. I just wanted to, this is just happening in real time. And I think

it's interesting. So, um, you know, I'm playing this video game called rust and, you know, it's

like a base builder type of thing. And, um, you know, a lot of killing and running around

and trying to get loot and, you know, making friends. And so this building a base, this guy

came up to me and he says, Hey, I need an ally. So we've just been hunkering down the

past and Saturday yesterday. He goes, Hey, are you, uh, you do VR? Cause he would see

my profile picture. I was like, yeah. He goes, uh, have you been to VR chat? I was

like, yes. As a matter of fact, I have a church in VR chat. And so I invited him to church and

I think he's going to come. And, um, it's just amazing to see like how these things are

connected. And, um, it's just, I don't know, I guess I get stuck on when people are really

resistant to the idea of a video game church and Facebook and virtual reality when there's

such compelling ministry going on. So, yeah, I love that idea of looking at digital community

as unreached people groups. We've been using that language through Stadia a lot lately and

writing blogs on it. Angela, I, my, my ears perked up when you said the thing about death

and that, that your church is, is doing a thing about death, which is also the, the ASL,

American sign language, one of the largest unreached people groups currently, uh, in America. And so

the fact that through a digital church, you're able to connect those people to do it through

that community, into that community, even though they're dispersed all across the country. Like

I've, I've always wanted to see churches care more for, for that community because they're often

just forgotten. And, and I think that's one of the things that, that are exciting to me is that

we've got, we've got an opportunity to, through digital means to easily connect and reach into

people, uh, that are often forgotten or, or discarded. And I've always said this, a digital

only expression of church is going to reach a different type of person that's coming into the

physical building. It's, it's not, at least in 2020, I don't believe this. I don't think a digital

expression of church is going to replace a physical church. Now, physical churches may be drying up.

And even just today at a conversation with a, with a church, she's like, yeah, I no longer have a

building. Uh, can I, can I possibly do this digitally? Can you help? Like there's all sorts

of people, all sorts of churches. Uh, Barna just said recently, 20% of churches are going to shut

down over the next 18 months. So, you know, you're going to see different expressions of church

kind of open up, but I love this passion, uh, through digital church to reach people that don't normally

get reached through the typical normal, normal church methods. So this has been a great conversation.

I, I, I love the fact that it all comes back to this relationship place. And even though perception is,

is that the technology will not allow for the relationships to be built time and time again,

when we have conversations with people who are utilizing the technology,

we're seeing that relationships are the forefront of these digital, uh, expressions of, of, of church

and missionaries and, and, and all this stuff that, that you guys are doing. So this has been,

this has been a great conversation. We're going to, we're going to wrap up land, land the plane here.

Um, you know, obviously all sorts of contact info. And if people want to get connected to your

specific ministries and online, uh, through love clan, uh, through pursuit church live through VR

church, we'll include all that in the show notes and, and things like that. But just to land the plane

here, any closing thoughts, DJ, as we're wrapping up, what, what are you thinking?

Um, just one, uh, thought I had was I had a friend a couple of years ago who said, DJ,

I think in the next 10 years, you're going to see more digital church plants than you see physical

church plants. And this was a couple of years ago. And I agreed with him. I totally thought,

yeah, that's true. But I didn't know how that would happen. It just seemed implausible that that

would catch on. And here in this COVID era, um, you know, we're at the brink of a church planning

movement like we've never seen before. That's going to start in the digital sphere. It's really going to be

empowering. And, um, I think it's just going to spread the gospel far and wide.

And, um, I think we just need to get out, get out of the way, let people lead,

let people start these things. And it's not that we don't have these conversations,

theology, theology and ecclesiology, you know, that's great. But at the end of the day, man, let's,

let's get moving forward with this digital vision, this virtual reality vision,

and let's keep things moving.

Awesome. Uh, Angela, as we're wrapping up in any closing thoughts on your side?

Similar to DJ. Our model at First State Church Live is digital plus. We want people to be in person,

but I, I think DJ is right, is that right now we have this incredible opportunity to do digital,

digital first. And for the local church, there's a lot of power in that because when you're able to

go back into in person, you will recognize that you have created this incredible relational bond,

on a daily basis of discipleship. And so I think that's the emerging, um, digital model that I see

coming is that people will be so excited to be together or to start an in-person group in person,

wherever they're at, whether that's, you know, in China or Uganda, because you'll connect with all

sorts of people, right? Dallas, Washington. Um, and so I think church will transform into something,

um, powerful, more meaningful because God has a plan for his church. And, uh, I absolutely believe,

like, we can be people that bring, uh, the kingdom of God into digital ministry.

Why wouldn't we do that? Why wouldn't we do that? That's just powerful. Um, so I'll be cheering for

anybody who's moving forward and just so happy to be part of the conversation.

That's awesome. And you guys have been great. Um, uh, what path finders, uh, way pavers,

whatever the language pioneers say that in this space. Love it. Uh, Jay, uh, you're,

you're bobbing your head up and down. What, what are you thinking as we're wrapping up?

Uh, I don't know. I think at this point, most of what needs to be said has already been said,

but, um, just to remember that a lot of the things that whenever you're looking at online church,

any criticism you give obviously needs to first be looked at local. Um, and the same old advice

is true that, you know, look, let's look at solutions rather than just providing, um, problems.

And a lot of the times what we want to do is just shout from the sidelines. Um, and that is, um,

kind of ironically, you know, we're, we're kind of like, well, I want to discipline this church.

That's not, you know, doing the way that I think that they should be doing. And the reality is that's,

Paul does that. I mean, he, he does write letters to other churches and says, Hey, you guys,

you know, um, you're doing this wrong and you need to get your act together.

And he gives very specific things that they can do that. This is how they can change.

Um, even though he doesn't know all the information about that. And so I, I do want to hear when I hear

something from a local church and I've thought I've spent a lot of time. I spent years in a local

church really thinking through like, okay, if we're going to do this in a digital space,

what does that look like? What does it need to change? Um, how can it be better? How can it,

you know, how can we affect, um, lives in a way that we wouldn't be able to do through the local.

And so, um, yeah, I, it honestly, I'm going to, I'm, it's going to go both ways. Like we need to

see things that we're not doing in a local church and we need to see things that we're doing in an

online church that need to take notes from the local church. Um, but the reality is that we are all

the church, like at the body of believers is the church, not this, you know, well, this is a group

of people and this is a group of people like all of us together, collectively all have the same

goal. We all have the thing that we want to see happen. Our people moving closer towards the

relationship with Jesus and to further the relationship with Jesus so that they can continue

to grow the kingdom. We all have that same goal. And that's, so it's not like one versus the other

online versus, you know, local church or whatever. And if the online church is able to do some things

better than the physical church and the physical church is able to do some things better than the

online church, that doesn't mean one of us is doing something incorrect. That just means that we have

different, you know, one is the hand and one's the feet and we have just different, um, expressions of

how we're going to do this together. And the reality is that as long as Christ is the head of our church,

then we're going to continue to move in the same direction. And that doesn't need to be at,

you know, like this against each other. Um, it means that we can really, let's look at how we can

effectively help each other do that better. Uh, and, and if the church is divided, then, you know,

the house is divided and that's, that's not going to stand. That's not going to help. So let's continue

to encourage each other and to move in a direction that sees even reconciliation from what we've seen

in the past where people say, well, I feel very judged by the church. Okay. Well, that's something

that we need to, we need to actually talk about. Let's, let's work through that. Um, so that we

don't have those same mistakes happen when we go into online. Uh, so yeah, I, I, I just, I, I very much

am as somebody that has worked at multiple churches and, um, is, I still attend a local church. I care

about the local church and I also care about online church and I want to see that succeed too. I don't

know. I just feel like, um, I don't understand the tension. Uh, it doesn't make sense to me, but I do

want to speak to it because I know it's there. And so, you know, let's talk about it. But, um, I would just

challenge anybody that has that kind of tension. Like why, why do we feel that if Christ is still

the head of what we're doing? Um, and we're just going forward with what we feel called doing. Um,

then let's, then let's kind of do like the church did there where we say, well, I mean, test it and

see, you know, the, the Holy spirit is on these people. And so I, we can't deny what God's doing.

And I've seen God work in the online church, so I can't deny that it's, that it's, that God is in it,

you know? So yeah, just to, that's all I would say experience too. You would need,

you have to experience it. You know, there's some things, um, just like that. They had their

theology and they said, well, they're not circumcised and so on. And it's like, hey,

I don't know what to say other than that the Holy spirit's on these people. And so it's,

God is in it. And so I don't, I can't like, are you going to fight against God? You know?

And if you are, then it's not going to stand. God, God's going to do what he's going to do

regardless. And so just let it happen, you know? Uh, and that's what I'd say with online,

you know, and there, there's a lot of preconceived notions. There's a lot of, um,

uh, misunderstandings or not even just recognizing digital culture. A lot of it, you know, I don't,

I hesitate to even say this. A lot of the, the questions really come out of, of ignorance of

what's possible with, with the technology and not understanding the relational aspect of it.

You know, just every, every conversation I have is all centered around, but you don't know who these

people are. And it's like, but you can, you just need to invest the time into it. We, we beat that

up. So I don't want to revisit it. But, uh, Angela, uh, Jate, uh, DJ, man, thanks for jumping on this,

podcast. It's a great conversation. I will forever have DJ and VR, his image burned in my head. Uh,

love it. And looking forward to do more conversations with him on the podcast and VR. So for Jate,

for Angela, for DJ, this is Jeff at the church, digital and Stadia church planning. Thanks for

being here. Once again, we'll see you next time on the show. Y'all have a good day.