EP102: Essential Ecclesiology Enabling Digital Church Planting

All right, everybody, we got episode 102

of the Church Digital Podcast

powered by Stadia Church Planting.

Jeff here, before we get to 102,

I wanna remind you real quick,

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as we've been talking about

how to make your digital ministry,

your digital church, your church online,

your fidgetal church, how to do it better.

Diving in even to the discipleship

in the most recent episode.

And so text us your questions.

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Great stuff.

All right, hey, let's get back to episode 102.

So I'm having a conversation recently

with nice people over at Exponential

talking about digital-only church planting.

By the way, if you're interested in more information

on how to plant a digital-only expression of church

or even what that means,

go swing over to thechurch.digital slash planting.

Thechurch.digital slash planting.

More information is there

and it's even what Stadia is doing.

But in context, I'm talking here to the Exponential people

and they were like,

hey, have you met Ed Love?

And I was like, no, I have not met Ed Love.

Hey, Ed, what do you do?

And he tells me, he's like,

he's the director of church multiplication

with the Wesleyan Church, with the denomination.

And so we start dialoguing here

and I'm discovering that Ed, essentially,

and this is even going back to like 2017,

we talk about it in the podcast,

through the Wesleyan denomination,

basically reworked, revisited their ecclesiology,

their biblical functions,

how they're interpreting scripture

to lead towards how church looks in the future.

They wanted to make it easier

for different models of church to exist.

They revisited the scripture

to see if a digital-only expression of church would work.

They revisited scripture to revisit

whether micro-expressions, micro-churches,

micro-campuses, if those would work.

And so they revisited, they delved into the scripture,

they examined it,

and they came out of it with a essential ecclesiology,

basically a different format function

of how they felt that scripture was leading them

to define church.

So, so often we have this conversation of,

is a digital church really a biblical church?

Is a micro-church really a biblical church?

Is a house church really a biblical church?

And it's fascinating.

The Wesleyans, evidently, under Ed's guidance,

had this conversation like back in 2017,

and it's phenomenal insights from them.

And so realize coming in,

you've got a denomination,

an organization that's reshaping,

maybe not taking away from scripture,

but revisiting the scripture

and reanalyzing it for the world that we're in today.

Great conversation.

I am so excited from a digital-only perspective

that you get to hear it.

So here's where we're bringing in.

We're bringing in Ed Love,

Director of Church Multiplication,

as I said,

for the Wesleyan Church.

And we're bringing in myself,

Jeff,

with the Church Digital

and Stadia Church Planning

in a conversation

that I'm essentially calling

the Essentially Ecclesiology

for Enabling Digital Church Planting.

Okay, everybody.

Here you go.

Well, hey,

maybe just to give us a little definition

and background into who you are,

Ed,

just maybe tell us a little bit

about your day-to-day,

your ministry life now

with the Westlands.

What does ministry look like

for you these days?

Yeah, well,

I serve as the Director

of Church Multiplication,

and that means

I've got responsibilities

over the church planters

and also the church multipliers,

like those sending churches,

the multiplying churches,

and developing both of those realms,

developing the systems

that help churches continue to multiply

and also produce

healthy, thriving new churches.

So that's primarily my focus now.

I've been a church planter,

so I know how that life is,

and I've been a church multiplier,

a church network leader,

and I love seeing the church

just rapidly reproduce and expand.

Yeah, this idea of multiplication

and church planting

and how all that fits together,

man,

it's an exciting time.

It's an exciting opportunity.

We're seeing churches pivot

more and more that way,

and honestly,

Ed,

like you,

I got connected through,

to you,

through the exponential crowd.

We were,

I guess we're speaking

at a conference

or something together,

but a couple of those guys

were telling me

about how you guys,

how the Wesleyan denomination

has been reworking

the ecclesiology

and starting to open up

some of these things,

and it started just

to pique my interest,

especially considering

some digital church,

and we'll get some of that

down the road here

in a little bit,

but maybe just even

to open up,

explain to the audience,

most people have heard me

say the word ecclesiology

a bunch,

but you're more educated

than I am,

so you tell me here,

like ecclesiology,

what essentially

are we talking about

when we use this term

ecclesiology?

Well, ecclesiology

is essentially

the study of the church.

I mean,

that's what we're

talking about here.

It's our view

of the church.

When you hear

the word church,

what are the mental models

that you think about?

And I know

when I was a kid

growing up,

you know,

we had that little saying

in our,

I don't know,

Sunday school class

or something,

you know,

you put your hands together

and you're like,

here's the church,

here's the steeple,

open the doors

and look at all the people,

right?

You know,

it's this fun little thing

we do.

But believe it or not,

that was forming

part of my ecclesiology

because I was getting

a view of the church.

The church happened

within a building

with the steeple

and people

and that was

part of our view.

So everybody's got

a view

of the church

and,

you know,

I think

we go through

different seasons

and epochs

within the church

at large

and we need

to reanalyze

our view

of the church

and so that's

what we're talking

about

when we're talking

ecclesiology,

defining it,

clarifying

what it is

in our current

cultural context.

Wow,

so you guys are,

I mean,

it's safe to say

you're redefining

what church is,

you're reshaping it

like is there

with a biblical context

like what,

so as you're revisiting

what this church is,

kind of what are

the checkpoints

that you're looking at

and comparing it to?

What role does

scripture play in this?

Well,

scripture is a huge part

because,

and I hesitate

to even use the word

redefine

because what we're

trying to do

is go back

more to the

original definition.

If that's what you mean

by redefining

is we're just going

back to the original,

closer to the original

definition.

That has been

our pursuit

and our goal,

I think,

you know,

it's helpful,

it's always helpful,

you know,

it's like making a copy,

making a copy

of a copy

of a copy

of a copy

and then eventually

you're like,

and I'm sure

this is a little fuzzy,

what is this?

And so you got to go back

to the original,

copy the original

and so

I think that's been

more of our focus

and scripture

obviously

is

the

guiding framework

for that

and

understanding

what Jesus

really wanted

the church

to be

and

let's

start there.

Were there

symptoms within

the

Wesleyan denomination?

Like,

what caused

this revisit?

What was

maybe the

motive

that

started this,

hey,

let's revisit,

let's go back

to the original?

What were the symptoms

you were seeing

within

maybe

the existing

ecclesiology

that started

this movement?

Yeah,

so in the

Wesleyan church,

it's a denomination,

right?

I mean,

it's a well-established

denomination

and

it's

done its

thing,

it's organized

well

and

by

most

measurements

in the

denominational

world,

like,

it is a

healthy

denomination,

like,

it's actually

not experiencing

great decline

but it's

also not

experiencing,

you know,

the level

of

movement

and

multiplication

that our

heart

really

desires

and what

we feel

like God

is calling

us to be.

So,

I think

there was

a little

bit of

this holy

discontent,

you know,

I mean,

going back

just three,

four years,

there was a

change in

a lot of

leadership

and that's

when I

started my

role,

got invited

into that

and so,

you know,

I think

that was

a lot

of it

was just

kind of

just this

holy

discontent,

just feeling

like there's

got to be

more,

you know,

is our goal

just being

a healthy

denomination

and kind

of surviving

the denominational

era,

making it

or,

you know,

are we really

going to be

open to what

the Holy Spirit

wants for us

and see the

church unleashed

and so,

I think

that was

the,

that was

kind of

the marker

for us

was just,

you know,

we just

kind of

had to

put a

stake in

the ground

and just

say,

hey,

we want

to be

a multiplying

movement,

so what

does that

look like

for us?

And that

starts a

whole,

another

series of

questions,

right?

Yeah,

it was funny,

just last

week here

on the

podcast,

we had

Jim Tomberlin

on and

in Jim's

Multi-Site

Solutions,

I think he's

with Unstuck

Group now,

he's chief

of staff at

Christ Fellowship

Miami,

a church

that I used

to be on

staff with

and he

dropped this

phrase,

and Jim's

great at

these one-liner

mic drop

things,

that's just

the world

that he

lives in,

but he said,

he's like,

the goal of the

church is not

to grow as

big as

possible,

the goal of

the church

is to grow

big enough

so that it

can multiply

and then

grow big

enough so

that it

can multiply

again,

and so

there's this

intentionality

that comes

towards

multiplication

even from

the beginning,

and it

sounds like

with this,

with the

pivot that

you hate

to use the

word pivot,

everybody says

pivot,

but with

this change

in the

ecclesiology,

it feels

like you

guys are

making an

intentional

shift more

towards

this idea

of

multiplication.

Now,

when I look

at it as

well,

it feels

like there's

a lot of

different

opportunities

for different

types of

churches to

maybe pop

up,

more micro,

more digital

expressions,

which is

something obviously

we talk a lot

about here.

Was there

intentionality

towards these

different models?

Were you

seeing an

opportunity to

expand there

within the

denomination?

Absolutely.

And that

was a big

part of

why we

had to

push that

conversation

ahead.

You can

imagine

having the

we call

it essential

ecclesiology.

Some use

the term

minimal

ecclesiology.

Having that

conversation

at a

denominational

level is

not easy.

There's a lot

of people

that feel

like they

got a

say in

that.

We

actually did

in our

process of

defining that

we did

involve a

lot of

layers of

people,

professors,

denominational

leaders,

district

leaders,

local

pastors.

We had

a diverse

group going

after it,

which was

helpful.

But I

think for

us,

we were

recognizing

that our

apostolic

multipliers,

our leaders

that were

really going

after it

and had

that kingdom

vision,

they were

dreaming

about

church

in

new

ways

already.

So it's

kind of

like we're

responding to

what's already

going on in

the field

and wanting

to make

sure as a

denomination,

we want to

make sure

we're clearing

the path for

our multipliers

and apostolic

leaders,

not creating

more confusion

and clutter

that they have

to wade

through.

And so

I think

it was in

our

discernment,

we just

recognized

we've got

to have

this

conversation,

we've got

to nail

it down.

We actually

had an

event that

we pulled

together about

three years

ago, we

called it

Unleashed.

And it

wasn't like

a conference,

it turned

out to be

more of

like an

upper room

prayer

experience is

what it

was.

But we

just kind

of invited

the apostolic

leaders that

we knew

of in

our tribe

and said,

hey,

we want

to have

this

conversation

and we

want to

experience a

greater measure

of unity

as a church

and focus

around this

idea.

And so we

need you to

come together,

we need to

have this

meeting,

kind of a

coming to

moment,

a Holy

Spirit moment

where we

move this

mission forward.

And so that's

where it

actually began

and we

got the

sense of

like as

we unleashed

our leaders,

like they

were thinking

at a whole

other level.

You know,

they were

thinking very

creatively,

all kinds of

different church

planning models

and even a

little pushback

on like even

the current

traditional

model,

right?

I mean,

it was just

kind of like,

yeah,

we've done

that and

we really

don't see

the fruit

that we

would like

to see,

would have

liked to

see.

And so we

got to make

room for

some more

models.

And so that's

what really

sparked the

conversation.

And so in

a way it

was,

you know,

I'm a

proactive

leader,

so I like

to think

that we

were proactive,

but I think

our leaders

in the field

were the ones

actually pushing

it forward.

And then it

was the

denomination

levels just

kind of

responding and

saying,

hey,

we want to

clear the path

for you.

And if our

definition of

church is

holding you

back for some

reason,

or if we've

got some

systematic

things that

are holding

you back,

we want to

work at

those.

We need to

know what

they are

and then

work at

them so

that your

path is

free to

go.

And so

that's been

really cool

to see,

you know,

all kinds

of new

things happening

and leaders

feeling more

freedom.

That gives

you more

opportunities,

I think,

to,

I don't

want to

use the

word

reshape

because

you're

falling

back on

that

original,

but you're

able to

shape things

almost like

clay to

make it

look

different.

And so

you can

take this,

I love

your phrasing

of

essentially

ecclesiology.

You know,

minimal feels

like,

oh yeah,

we're cutting

stuff out

and it's

less than,

but you're

really with

this word

essential,

like there

are things

that may

not be

part of

the

essential.

Here's

the core

of what

we're

trying to

establish.

And if

you're able

to do

more or

your model

has stronger,

you know,

has more

strengths in

this area

and another

has strengths

in another

area,

it's not

good or

it's not

bad.

It's just

we need to

really get

established on

what this

core is,

on what the

essential piece

of it.

And so this

is really

exciting.

You know,

even when I

looked at it,

and we'll

put information

here in the

show notes

so that you

can kind of

see their

finding as

well.

But the

essential

ecclesiology,

I think,

comes down

to discipleship,

mission,

and community.

So these

are the

three foundations

that you

are considering

part of your

essential

ecclesiology.

Is there,

and I'm just

curious,

Ed,

overarching view,

was there a

reason why

you went with

those three?

What didn't

make the cut?

Like,

just give me

a brief

synopsis on

that particular

finding.

Oh,

I think we

were just,

we recognized

like,

we wanted

to come

across as

simple,

but it

needed to

be strong

and legitimate

and credible.

And so

I think that's

why,

you know,

we needed

these three

kind of

broader

categories.

Some people

use,

you know,

up,

in,

and out.

I mean,

that's a

simple way

of phrasing

it.

But,

you know,

to be able

to just

have those

three categories

there is really

helpful for leaders

to think through,

you know,

what does

it look like

in each of

those categories?

And then,

I mean,

we ended up

creating this

evaluative

document,

which is really

just nine

questions,

like,

that you would

ask your

new church

that you're

starting,

you would ask

those questions

about your

church,

evaluate it,

have a plan

for those,

you know,

be able to

answer those

questions,

and have

a plan

in place

for it,

and then

there's a lot

of freedom

in that,

though,

you know,

so,

and what we

also recognize

is some

of the things

that we're

starting,

they don't

need to

begin,

in the early

stage,

they don't

need to

begin with

a,

you know,

full set

of criteria,

they may

work towards

that,

and at

some point

in the course

of,

you know,

their

ministry run,

they,

a leader

who's overseeing

that should

be able to

ask them,

like,

hey,

what you're

doing is a

little bit

more than

just an

outreach effort

of our

church or

our network,

I think this

is actually a

church,

let's have

this conversation,

you know,

so it's

allowing leaders

to have the

freedom and

space to do

some new

things without

having to

define it

specifically as

an official

established

church,

right,

and be

able to

work toward

that is

really helpful.

That's what

I think is

unleashing the

movement where

we're seeing,

you know,

the Wesleyan

church,

right,

we trace our

roots back to

John Wesley,

you know,

Francis Asbury,

the lay-led

Wesleyan

revivals,

I mean,

that's like

our heritage,

and yet,

it's like,

where's that

at,

you know,

like,

where are

the movement

makers,

like,

John Wesley

was great,

and Francis

Asbury,

but they're

not the

ones that

actually did

the work

of the

movement.

I mean,

they did

their part

in establishing

and sending

and creating

that culture,

but they

had hundreds

and thousands

of,

you know,

lay-led

leaders being

unleashed all

over,

starting these,

you know,

these movements

in all kinds

of places

and pockets

in the world,

and so,

you know,

we wonder,

where's that

at,

you know,

and where's

that lay

movement,

and so,

could our

definition of

church actually

be holding

those people

back,

because it's

too high of

a bar,

and so,

we gotta recognize

that there are

these pioneering

leaders that

are in our

churches,

just sitting

there,

and they're

probably a

little bit

bored with,

you know,

just the

normal operations

of church,

so,

it's like,

how do we

engage them

and then

empower them

for the

movement,

and they

might start

doing something

if they're

empowered,

and it may

turn into

a church,

and that's

what we're

seeing,

I love it,

and that

just gets

me really

excited,

so.

This is

beautiful,

when you

re-addressed

this,

you took

into mindset,

priesthood of

all believers,

how do we

get this

into lay

people,

like,

I love

that,

that is so

beautiful,

I'm just

curious,

because sometimes

I have this

conversation

with churches

and with

denominational

leaders,

national

leaders,

and some

people love

this idea

of priesthood

believers,

and I'm

not gonna

lie,

we talk

about it

on the

show,

some

people are

not a

fan of

this

priesthood

of believers

idea,

I'm just

curious,

within the

denomination,

within the

leadership,

was there

pushback

towards releasing

some of this

control,

towards this

shift in

ecclesiology to

make it easier

for lay

people to

address?

oh, sure,

there's

pushback.

It wouldn't

be leadership

if there's

not pushback,

but I

think the

majority of

people are

excited about

that,

want to lean

into it.

I think the

hesitancies

just come

with being

concerned about

what are we

doing for

future generations

and how do

you engage

young people

and kids?

You've got

all these

practical

issues you're

working through,

but by

and large,

people are

really excited

about being

a movement

again and

leaning into

it.

It's a great

conversation.

I noticed

it does

take a lot

of time.

Just like

anything in

denominational

work, it

takes 10

times longer

than what

you thought

it would

take.

It's been

at least

three years

now and

we're seeing

the culture

finally really

changing.

You're talking

about a

complete culture

shift.

That doesn't

happen overnight.

It doesn't

happen with

one conference

or speaker

or message.

It takes

a lot of

time and

a lot of

different

arenas

that you

have to

have these

types of

conversations

in.

Everywhere I

go, I

am way more

encouraged and

supported than

not.

It's a

good space

to be in

and good

conversations

are happening

at all

different levels

and super

excited.

Even in our

universities,

we've got

five Westland

universities and

seminaries.

We've got a

seminary,

Wesley Seminary,

and I

teach a

little bit

for them.

We've had

these

conversations

there and

it's like,

wow,

full support

across the

board.

They're

leaning in

and doing

their part

to serve

the movement.

It's really

exciting.

My understanding

off what you

just said,

and I didn't

realize this,

this is a

three-year-old

process?

You started

this 2017,

2018?

Yeah.

Wow,

I didn't

realize that.

By doing

the three

years,

at this

point,

it's part

of culture

at this

point.

I would

imagine

where people

have adopted

this,

it's part

of the

DNA of

what you

guys are

doing.

It's not

really an

add-on

at this

point.

It's

getting,

yeah,

I can see

that.

What's cool

for me to

watch is

I hear

other

leaders

in their

own

spaces,

or we've

got a

couple groups

of leaders

pulling off

their own

conference

and things.

They're

actually

speaking the

same values

in their

settings on

their own.

It's not

like I

didn't tell

them to

say those

things or

do those

things.

That's when

you start

knowing that

the culture

is really

changing.

You've

made some

progress.

We've

still got a

long ways

to go.

Don't get

me wrong.

There's

more and

more ground

being taken

every day.

It's

exciting

watching people

lean in.

That is

very exciting

with somebody

owning a

piece of

this and

reproducing,

replicating it

even in

their own.

You're

talking about

leadership.

That's when

you know

you're being

effective,

when somebody

else is

picking up

your mantle

and carrying

it.

Let's

unpack.

I had a

couple

questions

here.

The

essential

ecclesiology

comes down

to discipleship

towards mission

and towards

community.

Here on the

podcast,

we talk a lot

about digital

only expressions

of church.

The idea

of an

essential

ecclesiology

and digital

space.

We talk

about this

with planters

who are

wrestling with

the same

sort of

stuff.

It's really

exciting for

me to

see a

denomination

three years

years ago

being

forward

thinking

enough

to try

to make

this

easier.

Whether

digital

was in

your

mindset

in

2017,

whatever,

the adjustment

with this

is very

helpful

towards moving

towards a

digital

expression

of church.

I wanted

to get

your opinion

on something

because for

me,

discipleship

in digital

space,

this is

going to

become my

mantra

for

2021.

The

church,

COVID,

we made

massive

hurdles

towards

getting

churches

online,

doing

broadcasting

services,

things like

this.

The pain

point for

many churches

has been

this idea

of discipleship.

I use the

phrase

disciple

making.

You can

plug in

whatever your

language here,

but it's

this idea

of

discipling,

growing

someone to

the place

where they

can grow

someone else.

Great

commission

moving forward

towards that.

At least

in my

opinion.

When I'm

talking about

discipleship

and digital

discipleship,

do you

have or

have you

experienced

within the

denomination

churches

that are

doing or

planters

that are

doing

disciple

making

discipleship

well

in digital

space?

Are there

challenges

that you're

seeing where

that may

not happen

digitally?

What's your

opinion on

this idea

of discipleship

digitally?

I personally

love it.

I think

it's part

of the

future.

I think

we're

seeing more

and more

now

leaning into

that and

figuring it

out.

I think

COVID

just sped

up the

process by

probably 10

years.

Every church

leader is

basically forced

to figure it

out,

whereas before

it would

probably be

a choice.

I want to

do this

or I'll

just keep

doing what

I'm doing.

Now everyone

is forced

into it.

We've seen

some great

things coming

out of that

and I'm

watching some

great

leadership

development

start

happening.

it's been

really neat

even

watching

leaders

doing

different

studies

and

whatnot

all on

digital

platforms

and

they're

getting

their

message

across

to a lot

more

people.

I think

of it as

much more

than just

broadcasting

a service

or teaching

but it's

the actual

engagement

that's where

discipleship

actually

I think

is

legitimized

in those

environments

and you

could probably

make a case

like there's

actually more

discipling

and

potentially more

disciple making

happening

in a digital

context

versus physical

sometimes.

you could

say

there's a lot

of interaction

and

learning

relationship

there's some

things that the

physical space

is still great

for

but

if you use

it right

but oftentimes

it's

you know

in church

life

I mean

it's

kind of

a

come

see what

we got

and sit

and watch

it

and

where the

digital space

really just

forces you

to interact

I mean

yeah

that

that becomes

more and more

the go-to

like let's

dig in

let's go

somewhere

together

definitely

and I just

want to publicly

say I did

not prompt

nor script

him to say

any of what

he just said

and you

don't know

but

oh no

that check's

gonna bounce

my friend

I hate to

tell you that

wow

but

but that

just I

continually

say things

like that

and sometimes

people are

like yes

that's incredible

yes I agree

and some people

are like you're

crazy

but it's

amazing to me

how much

this

bifurcated

how many

people

would

or it's just

50-50

it's divided

normally when I speak

on digital

church planting

like I'll ask

up front

who thinks

this is a great

idea