EP104: Does the Holy Spirit Move Online?

episode 104 of the church digital podcast powered by stadia church planning jeff here i always love

saying that powered by stadia church planning it's been less than a year here uh and i love

working with stadia church planning i'm going to go into a selfish plug here right up here at the

front stadia is doing a phenomenal amount of resources helping churches like yours established

physical churches understand the physical aspects as well as the digital aspects of of doing

ministry we've adapted this term digital p-h-y-g-i-t-a-l you've heard me say it here on the

show time and time again but if your church is interested in learning how to thrive grow and even

multiply in this mid post-covid season uh doing it physically as well as digitally hey we should

really talk head over to stadia church planting.org slash digital p-h-y-g-i-t-a-l we'll go ahead and put

the link in the show notes too but there's an incredible opportunity for churches like yours to

take that next step not only physically not only digitally but also ultimately towards creating

disciple makers out of your church and multiplying through your church check out stadia church

planning.org slash digital all right hey so let's talk about 104 here i am excited about this episode

greg nettle president of stadia throughout basically this entire covet season he has asked me the same

question time and time again and and honestly like i've been stammering transparently awkwardly maybe i

don't have a good answer to this question here's the question greg nettle asks me jeff how have you

seen the the spirit of god uh tangibly move through online in uh this covet season i would tell a story

here i tell a story there but he kept he would ask the same question over and over again so it's like

hey you know what i need to find better answers because he really wants to know the answer to this so i i would

like start putting on facebook groups i'd start asking like digital pastors i know hey where are

you seeing the the holy spirit tangibly move and uh you know the the digital pastors or or my friends

or volunteers they would tell me stories and oftentimes i'm listening to their stories and i'm like

all right is that really that like this holy spirit moving or is that like just a really good system

that's operating or you know what what's that measuring line between okay that's the holy spirit

moving versus man we're just working really hard or maybe the holy spirit's moving because we're just

working hard and that sort of gets into this circular logic that sometimes i get stuck in this is the

world that i've been in while greg's been asking me hey jeff how have you seen the presence of god

move through online in this season so uh you know have by the way cory deck is is uh episode 99 we

actually had a conversation with him because he answered that question in a way that i wasn't

expecting he said that not 26 people had died in his church in this covid season that's a very powerful

way to see god move through this covid season and so like he was an example of one of these stories

that came out of me just uh aggressively asking this question another example that came out of

me asking this question uh is in the form of alex robinson so alex is a video editor uh here with

stadia church planning uh an incredible creative uh is very involved much into the the marketing in that

creative group here at stadia by the way has done a ton of work helping churches creating content that's

helped churches understand how to thrive grow and multiply through our learning communities and

digital cohorts so you know uh alex man thanks for just being an awesome guy but alex comes in and

sends an email to me based off of me asking this question he's like jeff you know i've been wrestling

with that and he starts to go into this email thread talking about how well you know what he'll he'll

explain it he'll set it up but he really started to like open up the can of worms centered around

okay so we're not seeing it online but are we really seeing it physically or is it just you know

and i'm a live production guy is it just really good live production with a subwoofer and and haze

and i don't want to like unravel the wholeness that is is the holy spirit moving through our large

gatherings as as much as really starting to to question and look at how does the holy spirit move

in context of what we're doing through our digital churches through our online churches through our

digital churches here in covid season in the future and and what he's done in the past and so

schedule this meeting with with alex and about the same time hey why don't why don't we bring in alex's

wife jamie jamie's a digital pastor newly founded in this covid season it's like hey let's make it a

family affair this is the first time we're bringing in a husband and wife on a podcast here at the church

digital took 104 for it to make it happen so we're bringing into the conversation alex and jamie

robinson as well as ray the armis uh digital pastor co-host of course here with the church digital and

myself uh jeff with the church digital and stadia church planning in a conversation essentially just

a question that that i really want answered does this holy spirit does the spirit of god move online

okay everybody here you go uh alex jamie maybe just take a a minute tell us uh individually your

ministry story what what are you doing in ministry today um so i was um uh in campus ministry for a

little while kind of right out of college and um jamie and i had met in college uh we got married very

early on uh while i was doing campus ministry and then so we went to seminary in tennessee and um

while we were there we were involved in youth ministry at a church and worship ministry um have

always been involved in some aspect of worship ministry creative arts ministry um and then while

we're finishing up uh our our uh master's degree um a position became available at the church that

actually jamie grew up in um here where we live now in uh pennsylvania and so it's the first time that

they've ever had a full-time creative arts pastor and so uh long story short uh i was able to um step

into that role and uh so at that point we had three boys they were um 17 months apart 17 months apart

two years old and one year old twins and so life was kind of crazy this crazy whirlwind uh but we've been

here now eight years um last year um i transitioned into a role with stadia church planning as the

uh content marketing coordinator um stepping out of that creative arts pastor role and basically doing

video work for stadia um and jamie during that that same time had um kind of started part-time while the

boys were very young and then just kind of continually i don't like you know she continued to kind of step into

really how god had gifted her in these different areas and like that just kind of kept being affirmed

i guess and so now she has a full-time position and you know it's so it's great we still get to work

together we've always been kind of a ministry team yeah i'm kind of uh um my family's like an early

tech a doctor so i've been kind of playing around on the computer since i was little and like i had an

angel fire website that i learned how to code when i was 13 oh my gosh angel fire

so you had to put your own photos up you know yeah and i talked to too many strangers on the internet

and it's a miracle that i sit here today i will tell you if i'm honest love you here um but you know

just kind of cool to see how god took those things um that i was interested in and opened to learning

and now i get the opportunity to use that which is you know i started kind of back into that world

um with doing a mom podcast with my friend krista and so we did that like while we're staying at home and

then when we moved moved up to pennsylvania um i got involved with doing the social media we went to a

big blogging conference out in new york that was like super inspiring to me back in 2012 um and then

that kind of was the catalyst to the social media stuff i started doing our website and thinking more

critically and so um i kind of shifted into a communications role at the church and then with

covid um and every time they'd ask like what do we need to be thinking about as a church i'm like

thinking about online like so it's such a potential um for ministry and like what i love about online is

like you go from like having limited access to the church family to the church body to now like you

have you can find them like 24 7 through the internet so i think that's really cool so i love

um this new opportunity that i am like kind of just embarking on which is to be the online campus

pastor for our church it's really cool yeah so you've been uh jamie you've been director for

three four months at this point just recently got ordained is my understanding that's that's awesome

i love the fact that your church is is so serious about digital that they're ordaining you and equipping

you and positioning you in the role that that's an exciting movement yeah i feel really excited um just it's a

really cool time at our church we're um in a lot of transition um we've we have a rich history

of ministry and reaching out to the community and so it's really great now um as we move into coming

out of covid um these new areas that were kind of untapped and we just kind of had waiting in the

wings so it's really neat to be a part of our our church right now very cool well hey i'm i'm excited

about this podcast because i actually have no idea how this conversation is going to go it's

it's it's it's a topic that can go many different directions and let's let's just have some fun and

see with it so you know we we've talked and actually we kind of stumbled into a podcast

similar to this topic but completely different i'll get to here in a little bit because i've been

i've been trying to pull threads to really have this conversation and and alex sent me an email

and it was like oh my gosh we this is it we're going to explore this topic right here so

greg nettle president of stadium we've had him here on the podcast he is

he's famous for asking me a line a question every time he sees me and and it's just it's

with regularity the conversation is something close to hey jeff how have you seen the tangible presence

of god move in this covid season and and it's been interesting because i don't always have like a

a solid line towards that and you know i hear like you know churches are doing things and

and but but but the heart of what what greg's like asking for is is like you know at least my

impression of it's like these holy spirit chill type of moments where where you're seeing some

you know some things happen in context of what we're we're doing online and and i'm not saying

it's been absent but i'm saying it's been hard to like really get solid answers towards that and even

to the point of i would go on to facebook groups and and just like ask random like online ministers

hey where are you seeing the tangible presence of the holy spirit moving and this is actually

how we got connected uh with uh episode 99 with the um oh my gosh i'm just blanking on his name

uh the guy who had like 26 people die in his church as a result of covid and uh cory and cory uh is it

was his name and he was telling the story he's like yeah we saw the holy spirit move because 26 people

died and i'm like okay that is totally not the answer that i was expecting that is an incredible podcast

but that's not what i was expecting to come out of out of this question and so uh i i get this email

uh from from alex here and alex is saying hey i i struggle and i'm literally reading here from the

email i struggle with not having the same feeling of transcendence as i do in a large auditorium full

of people when i'm watching a service online i struggle with not having the same feeling of

transcendence uh as i do in a large auditorium full of people and so what's interesting in this

conversation is you've got ray de armis has been a pastor for a long period of time alex you are

literally among other things a video editor i have a history of live production and uh and jamie is

coming into the role new uh fresh perspective on things where you know really i really want to

explore this idea of what we do in the physical realm the chills that transcendence as as you call it

alex is that is that god is is that holy spirit is that something else what's the what's the

biblical record what does it look like biblically what what does that come from is it missing online

is it missing in our services is that a good thing is that a bad thing i don't know and so i just would

love to maybe even explore this this idea of what transcendence is in a online versus physical

standpoint so i just vomited a bunch of words right there that was awesome what are y'all thinking uh you

know what's knee-jerk reactions coming off of this yeah i so my question kind of came out of

um that online completely online experience during covid and then kind of also looking at what other

churches are doing and realizing that there are those moments that we can experience where we have some

emotional response um but it was getting you know kind of getting used to um being the church in a

different way worshiping as a church in a different way um and uh and then kind of along with that

um eugene peterson uh has a book called the pastor and it's like kind of a memoir of his life as a pastor

and he talks about people looking for transcendence or like he calls it god meaning um in three ways

kind of outside of the church and it's like drug sex and rock and roll basically although he uses crowds

instead of rock and roll so he says historically like even in ancient times people would try to find

like god meaning in crowds and so i've always wrestled with that like connected with a somewhat

larger church and being a creative arts pastor and now the worship producer at the church part-time

um you know how how do we we don't want to emotionally manipulate people um but how do we um instead of

looking for like kind of idolizing that that experience that we have as a crowd how how do we use

that to point to what we're at our actual truer longing is for that experience of the presence

of god and and that that feeling that we have together i think is kind of like a sign point

a post pointing toward that crowd gathered around the heavenly throne you know that that um when we

have those experiences in a large group and it may not even be in church it may be um at a sporting

event or like which has been kind of taken away now right too um or a concert um but when we experience

those kind of moments of transcendence rather than just like throwing them out kind of like peterson

does i think they can also point us to that that longing that we have uh for what we're this relationship

that we were created in this place that eventually will be with god um so that's kind of where all that

that came from um you know and kind of thinking through then okay um how how do we how do we have

those kind of moments or okay so andy stanley talks about how we can't make people fall in love with

jesus but we can set up the date um so like how do we set up the date online is kind of i guess what

um that question leads toward toward in my mind it's a great question right because scripture talks

about how we're created holistically in the image of god right so this is kind of where the conversation

turns a little bit theological right and so some pastors and leaders try to decry the emotional side

of church because they want it to be more cerebral they want it to be more of a thought oriented kind of a

thing whereas others really embrace the emotional side to a degree where there's over emphasis on this

right um it's interesting because our lead pastor was recording some bonus content for us and he was

bringing up the verse in first corinthians where he talked about where paul talks about how the jews

seek a sign very emotional right and the greeks look for philosophy very cerebral but we preach

christ crucified which kind of embraces the whole of who we are right and finding that through a digital

medium i think it can be challenging can't it yeah it's a jamie like how are you guys embracing some

of that like where you guys are at because i think that could be pretty tough yeah i think um we're

really just trying to make sure that all of our online interactions are leading relationally um because

i think that's really kind of key and how do we help people to break down these barriers um it never

surprises me you know i'll ask somebody you know how they feel about church online and they'll say oh i

just don't want to be behind a screen um but some of that i think that's preventing them from having

that experience and that transcendence transcendence is their comfort level with the medium so like they're

not super comfortable with online interactions and so you know they'll kind of be more of a spectator

like they see an online service as let me put it on my web browser and we're just going to sit back and

watch it um so for us like we try to model some of that relational aspect because that gets people to

open up the relational aspect of you know hosting church online in a group it gets people to be open

um to build that relationship and to be open to um allowing their relationship with god um to develop

because that's when you start to experience the community when you're willing to be there um i the

thing i keep thinking about whenever someone is like i can't have a real interaction online um i just

looked up the trends of online dating and online we're now in one in ten people um that are like

immediately it's like one in ten uh relationships that are married or long-term commitments are starting

online and as people get younger it's trending upward so i think now it's like 17 is with the younger

generations of like 18 to 29 age range it was from a october 2019 pew research um thing that i looked at

but i'm like man if people can fall in love and meet their future spouse online why can't you fall in love

with god and why can't you experience um the joy and the spirit of god in these moments um so i think

about that and i kind of use that to say hey if you clear some of these barriers you know maybe it's

the technology um you might be able to experience that a little bit better and i have a great example

of um some of a transcendent moment that we got to see somebody had actually filmed it in their living

room um our church is very interactive with the special needs community in our area and so they

um a mom had filmed her adult son um just in worship like and he was standing in his living room

praising lifting his hands and here i'm thinking here's a guy who is is experiencing the spirit of god

because he doesn't have any of the barriers that a lot of us have he's not worried about oh well i'm

thinking about the next thing i have to do or he's not worried about the communication or the the

technology isn't a barrier for him because he's not worried you know he's just not thinking about it

um but he's really open and ready to receive and hear the word of god and experience what god has

for him in that moment so it's really cool to see that video and see this guy just experiencing the

presence of god and then also for his mom you know to be able to sit there with him and just see

how um he's has this relationship with god and is knowing him yeah yeah i love that story and and i'm

sure there are other stories out there like that it's it's the the unfortunate reality i think in in

this covid season that um churches rush to launch their services um and that was like the only thing

they did uh where it's hey let's get our services online okay now we're we're broadcasting our weekend

services we're good for that one hour on sunday um and and by focusing on the services and maybe not

the other things that make a church a church we we started creating this idea of a consumer

where hey let me let me sit back let me sit on the couch let me grab my coffee and and and let me

watch uh as a as a spectator you know from the the outside what what's happening you know we there's

there have been conversations about um you know not engaging not getting involved not leaning in but

instead leaning out into it and so i i think a lot of churches have have struggled in this season which is

partially why i think that we've maybe have have lost a little bit of this because the expectation

isn't there it's oh let me let me watch this content almost at the same level that i i would

watch a you know a netflix series or a mandalorian season two which is incredible by the way but set

that aside i and that's that's almost the sad thing is i may have more i'm going to call myself out

here i may have more expectation over mandalorian season two than i do walking into the one hour

on sunday and and i don't know if that's if that's if that's a me thing i don't know if that's you know

like uh between me and god where i just need need to lean into that but i think there's an opportunity for

us to expect more from that does that does that relate to any of y'all uh yeah i think kind of along

with the the relationship and dating lines that we're talking about in some ways it can feel for people

who are used to if you're not used to worshiping online it can feel almost like being in a long

distance relationship where you know like even when we were dating uh i was living in indiana for a

while as an intern and jamie was interning at a place in kentucky and so we talk on the phone every

night but it's so different you know than like at that point in time um and still is uh you know having

this like long distance relationship versus being face to face and so i think if we can remove as

many of those barriers as possible for people um and also you know so i think it's kind of like to get

to your question i think it's kind of a both and like i think that there's a lot of personal like

individual responsibility that people have in coming to it with that kind of childlike faith

and expectation um but i think there's also a responsibility uh for our churches uh to to

really cast a different vision for what online is and and can be and and and i think that that's a

that's a big deal because so much of what we've done in the past has been so focused on the building

and getting people to the building and you know whole attractional models and so forth that are just

all about what can happen on campus and in a building um and and built language out to to really

you know get people invested in the building and and now we're at this place where we don't have that

and we've built all this vision casting around a building uh we really need to reshape people's

vision for what the church is like just continued like clarity on you know the the revolutionary

uh concept that um that like uh god god wants to dwell in us and when paul talks about um you are the the

the temple of god you know in first corinthians he what at one point he's saying us in the the

individual sense and the next time he says he's talking about you as the church but still as people

like any metaphor that's used for a uh a building in scripture is about the people you know and so

um i don't think we lose anything by going online or having to be the church online but uh i think part

of the grief that we can experience or that we've had people experience is just everything that they've

known and that we've maybe as a church um you know kind of shaped their thinking around a building as

opposed to no you are that building uh that god's you know building into the church i want to dig into

that point a little bit there alex and and jeff jamie you guys chime in as well because you guys have

been on the experiential creation side of it like i i come from more like the pastoral side where we're

focused just on the teaching like yeah we want to talk with the worship leaders about some of the

other stuff but we're focused just on the teaching and even the guest experience and some of that other

stuff but talk about how like the building plays a factor in that you know in modern times we've got

blacked out theaters so all the focus is on this moment we've got kids environments so that the kids

are away or even more traditional churches where it's stained glass windows and things that kind of

point to awe and wonder whereas our homes are built for functionality and family and then especially

in this season we got kids running around in the back and so it doesn't allow for the the environment

doesn't really allow for focus and being in the moment to have that kind of transcendence or am i wrong

well i think one of the things that we need to not be afraid of is kind of blowing up some of our

traditional notions around about when we worship like we online we don't have to worship at nine

o'clock and ten you know if you want to gather with people online yeah but if you really need that

spiritual time maybe that means that you watch at 7 p.m on a sunday night when somebody's there to help

with the kids and you have time to kind of really connect with it um that's i think that's one of

the interesting things that i'm trying to break through is kind of my preconceived notions of how

church should be done and and then kind of taking that to you know the online platform of what does

this mean now that we're digital and we have that 24 7 access and i mean i love that you um mentioned

the temple and some of that like worship um you know moments because i'm thinking about i i feel like

i felt like more of a consumer when i'm in a physical space than i do when i'm in a digital space

and i think that the reason why i would say is that because if this is kind of a rough uh illustration but

i would say like physical worship is very easy to be two-dimensional um unless i'm willing to um to

participate and so like i still have that option of like not really participating and i can sit there

and be observing and critiquing um what's going on um but when i do decide to engage online can be

three-dimensional because you can be more of an active participant in what's happening real time so

like if i decide to participate in the chat or i decide to not just sing the worship songs but i'm

actually like talking about oh this story meant so much to me when we were going through our adoption

like i love this song and be able to test share my testimony um that's an opportunity that i would

never have in a regular physical worship service so i think that kind of is in some ways you get this veil

that's being lifted that's being torn that was there in the physical space because it's just like we

shouldn't talk in church you know and the certain things that are good things that we do um in those

physical spaces but now in this online space there's this third dimension that we can really explore

and open up that will allow people opportunities to worship in ways that they've had to repress or hold

back um in a physical space yeah jay granda talks a lot about that and we've had him on the podcast

here talking about the idea of four pillars uh for for church online and basically it's four

different methods or size groups that you can utilize with online but once we get past just

broadcasting our services online there's a much more richer tapestry that we can utilize to develop

the strategy so things like hey you know what yeah you you can broadcast the services and call that like

a an online a large gathering but there's also an opportunity to gather people in social space like

a 20 20 to 25 people uh you know daniel m calls it i think social space but like that size of a gathering

even uh physically fidgetally digital only there's an opportunity and you can kind of get that feel

sometimes in facebook groups where you're in um it's maybe it's a larger number of people but you can

interact in that social space area in that way uh jay talks about like the opportunity to do even small

groups maybe it's like 10 people six to 10 people uh maybe even as small as like one to three people

engaging if it's more like a core discipleship group or something but now you're you're engaging and

conversing with with people at that uh and jay also talks about like self-directed where maybe it's it's a

platform that's giving you the ability to or you're listening you know ray's earlier analogy of

listening to a song on spotify hill song that just hits you in the right moment in the right way and

you're feeling you know the presence of god moving i think i think as a church we were really driven

towards creating that one method but we weren't necessarily realizing okay there's other methods

there's other ways there's other vehicles um and as much as we really want to engage with the people

within our services we're forgetting there's opportunities to engage outside of the services

to really try to capitalize on the other 167 so um uh ray uh jamie as as you guys are doing digital

ministry are you what does it look like to kind of capitalize on some of those other pillars or some of the

other opportunities of the 167 to really engage with people so for us um really being more keyed into

creating an experience that was really going to connect with people was something that especially

as covid started that we really started keying in more because beforehand we were kind of slapping

our you know live experience together and kind of throwing that up for online we were able to create

unique worship experiences where there was more engagement with the camera um and even going

back a little old school and having a few sundays where we threw a choir that was socially distant

like in the back and you know recording them and mixing it in right and that kind of thing

lended a lot more to it because it gave a lot more of that hill song united type five where there's more

people in the room yeah and you know and for all of us who are kind of musicians and churchill recognizes

so like when the bridge hits and it's supposed to be that moment where it's like all hands up and

you know that the build-ups headed that direction you really felt a lot more of that at home

and so and especially with those songs that you know you're going to connect with like you know

the blessing or here again you know those songs that you that are almost like every worship leader is looking at their list and they're like this is the one this is the one that people are for sure going to capitalize on and so even online

we saw a lot more people posting and sharing the videos of that experience than even of the message

you know because it connected with them in such a big way and big props you know to andy hernandez

and and ben stapley you know on our team who were really keyed in on all right how can we make sure

that this is a real worshipful experience for people at home and then making sure that our chat hosts

we're making we're engaging with people in the same way just like what jamie was talking about in that 3d

experience so that it wasn't just watch it was also participate here and be part of active conversation

so it's not a simple answer in the sense of hey we just put up the broadcast and went with it

it's also okay so on the back end how is it experiential for people as well how are they

receiving it how are they sharing it how how was some of that going on is there a challenge of i mean

matthew 18 i don't want to go biblical here but it's the where two or three are gathered together

it's a church podcast maybe i should go biblical i'll literally call it the church digital podcast

maybe i should actually quote the bible digital you're okay okay uh where two or three are gathered

in in my name um you know and so like i will be there so what how do we how do we justify how do we

rectify how do we explain hey ray you're feeling the the presence of god while you're you're you're

stuck in traffic on the turnpike uh listen and you're jamming out the hill song where that right

song hits you in the right moment when you know the the the spirits got you at the right place but

you're you're you're alone in your car um um some of the more worshipful expressions the the presence

of god that i felt in my own life in this coveted season has been when i've been alone at my desk or

i'm in a zoom with six people scattered across the country um and so how does how do we rectify this

whole two or three gather in my name in in a in a digital context well you know you know what's

interesting about that is sometimes i worry as kind of i think what's already been declared on this

podcast that we share that we chase the group experience a little too much you know um

for better or worse if this is you out there my apologies i love you um you know sometimes i ask

folks whenever they're clamoring man we're gonna go see hillsong live tonight like on the same sunday

as church i'm like guys we're experiencing the same thing that you're looking for there they'll skip

church and they'll run to that concert experience because they believe that they're going to get

church in some kind of way there and i understand the transcendence of singing especially in miami with

other believers across the city there's validity in that but don't forget the context in which we're

at in the local church now that being said because we can't chase the individual side either where

sometimes we try to make christianity a little too individualistic but we can't disregard the individual

side as well and that you know we'll emphasize especially you know hey i come from traditional

southern baptist background we emphasize on that quiet time a whole lot in terms of devotional and

prayer some of that can be worship as well and so i got a little scripture here for you jeff right like

because i knew that this question was coming in john chapter 3 right verse 8 where jesus says

John 3 · chapter mention

the wind blows and referring to the spirit wherever it pleases you hear it sound but you cannot tell

where it comes from or where it's going and so it is with everyone born in the spirit and so

there are times where yeah in a small group or even in a small home gathering watching the service

and the spirit can hit you at the right moment you're overwhelmed and this is what

what happens or there are times in the quiet of our car where much like elijah in the old testament

where hey there was the sound of thunder and rumbling off in the distance but the lord wasn't

there but then a still small voice hits yeah and we're overcome by the presence of god

and we feel him moving in our lives in a very significant way in that moment and so as christians

and this has always been my fear because i because of my background that i just talked about i was kind

of fear treading to the emotional side but i don't want to be so cerebral about it that i ignore it

either because i don't want to ignore god speaking in my life in a real sense yeah just because i'm

wondering and i'm fighting it with what's going on up here yeah and so that that's just for me you know

and uh and you know i don't know uh jamie alex you guys got any thoughts on that that's just that's

just some of the stuff that i've encountered yeah i i like it kind of makes me think too like i love

what you're saying and and the idea of the still small voice you know that it's not in the earthquake

god's not in the fire he's not in the whirlwind but in that still small voice and um i was thinking

about how you know when when paul's writing these letters to these early churches there may be a

number of christians like spread across the whole city but by and large they're in house churches you

know they're they're in small gatherings of people and you know like uh again kind of back to

first corinthians man we're like all in the bible um uh he you know he's they're having this this

crazy kind of back and forth on you know kind of what should happen in the their worship gatherings

and he basically gets to the point where like he really he says in first corinthians 14 he'd much

prefer them to kind of hear the truth of god so that so that if an unbeliever comes into the

to their gathering then uh he says like the secrets of their heart will be laid bare

and they'll fall on their knees exclaiming god is really among you and you know it it doesn't that's

not uh you know he's not talking about walking into this thousand person gathering or whatever he's

talking about coming to somebody's house you know and and taking in the you know the truth of god

and it and it it doing what it does like dividing you know to to join and morrow uh to paraphrase and

and like you know searching out the secrets of our heart and and making us realize that god is at work

um even today and i think that can happen in an online gathering just as easily as it can or not just

even in a like again we're talking about like large gathering kind of thing but i think in all those

different spaces there are ways in which that can happen as well um and and i think that that's so

important to to not lose sight of yeah i think the um authenticity piece and in being willing to be open

to experiencing god and to hear god in no matter what how we're choosing to engage whether we're

physically on a campus whether we're behind a screen whether we're in a small group but just being

willing that god could show up here um you know i i think about times that i've had like the spirit

move and there was one time i was like not a runner i was doing one of those couch to 5k things and

i'm running i'm listening to my worship music and i just like just the spirit of god was just with me

and i just started crying so i like crying and running it was just you know but you know ever since that

moment i think that happened because i was already engaging with god um and talking to him while i was

trying to run or while i was trying to do whatever and so you know i think if we can get these barriers

out of the way and as you know online campus pastors and even church pastors no matter what your role is

if we can make an effort to help people to remove some of these barriers to say god can show up in a zoom

group god can show up on an online um thing god can show up in a facebook group um if we can if we can

help them to see that and clear those barriers away i think it's going to be really cool to see how god

just uses the power of the internet um to explode and i think about like you know what dj soto does for

me that's kind of one of my barriers is the virtual reality i love the idea of it but i know for my

boys that's not going to be a barrier for them like they watched a fortnight dj marshmallow concert and

they're like that was so cool it was awesome you know and they're just jumping up and down but that

was that was an experience for them and so i get excited when i think about what you know dj soto's

doing and all these virtual reality things and even how even in twitch and all the gaming platforms

and how the future is kind of more open to these online relationships online moments um where people can

experience the presence of god i get really excited about that because i know that my kids

are going to look for it there yeah no i was just going to agree with jamie i mean i found that

oftentimes i meet with god while i'm individual when i'm when i'm you know you said running like that's

that for me is like an easy time to just kind of focus in on who god is and kind of shut off

the rest of the world in a world that's so busy but also you know as you were pointing

towards our kids and just kind of how they experience not just content but how content can

really drive you in a specific to an emotion or in a direction and then in community right like

that's powerful in terms of how a lot of that is going to form the future in terms of discipleship and

particularly in worship right because kids aren't just going to want the experience there on sunday

they're going to say what else you got because they're getting it everywhere else right yeah

there's definitely a a challenge i think for the church to to step up holistically to embrace beyond

the um the one hour on sunday to to i just even even virtual reality that to to make the commitment to

get in there dj soto i mean i love the fact that we've said his name like six times in this podcast

um but but but the reality the reality is is the only because i've been in the meetings where i've

had the conversations with church leaders talking about dj soto and and the reality is is the majority

of people don't recognize that the spirit can move in places like virtual reality like that still is is a

is a controversial concept you know the idea of two or three that are gathered is taken in physical

context and they're not recognizing digital community as a community worthy to which really gets interesting

because you know church leaders would say it's not but the people who are like doing virtual reality

or even digital disciples making discipleship are saying okay while you're saying that you were not

allowed that god's not moving in this space we're showing you specific stories and testimonies of how

god is in fact moving in this area even though you're saying it can't happen um which is really interesting

like how how do we quantify hey god's moving in virtual reality even though like major nationally

recognized church leaders are like no that's that's that's not that's not good um anyway it's it's

being a guy that's usually like pushing the the edge of the limits and and and kind of helping those

people on the bleeding edge it's awesome to kind of celebrate and to see those wins and it's exhausting

because you kind of get beat up along the way with that so how how do you how do we reconcile hey like

god's doing stuff in virtual reality god's doing things through digital only church um interpretation of

scripture may lean one way instead of you know maybe addressing it for for the other way what how do we

reconcile that you know scripturally biblically personally yeah i think it's uh at least from my

standpoint i think it's um incarnational theology and that by that i mean you know god chose to take on

human flesh as a first century jewish man um and work through that culture that context um so that

people could know him and come into a relationship with him and he does that same thing constantly and

throughout time like not just through jesus but uh continually um right into the present day like when

when you think about um the way in which we're really kind of translating church into a different context

and i think it's a really incarnational thing to do um and and so like just as an example um like ezra

nehemiah there was like a time where the people again they hadn't heard the word of god like in

forever and so they're like the priests are like reading the word of god and and somebody then is

translating at the same time into the language that they can understand and they actually have this

emotional response they're crying you know they're they're weeping and they're like you know doing the

whole old testament like tear their clothes and you know repent and sackcloth and ashes kind of thing

and um god you know continues to do that throughout time like kind of uh come to people where they're at

in the language that they speak um in the cultural context that they're in um you know even the new

testament is written not in some you know like high style classical greek it's written in the greek

language of the everyday because it's talking to everyday people you know and if god can translate himself

into you know uh that common greek certainly he's going to use zeros and ones and whatever else you

know web uh you know html and you know whatever else to to speak to us today because that's where we're

at um and so i think for us it's kind of finding how how do we get with that how do we how do we go to

where god is working in the common everyday language in common everyday settings whether it's

web vr whatever it is that we're experiencing today i think the uh great commission is really simple

it's go and make disciples not go to some other country or go to some state go to some physical

place it's just to go and so we just need to be looking for these places where people are gathering

and that's where we go and so yeah the real estate's digital right now and that's the technology that

we're dealing with and you know maybe 50 60 years from now lord willing there's a new mode of

communication that's out there maybe it's like holograms or something i don't know like i don't

want to get too sci-fi on you but you know but the call is still to go and make disciples so we've got to

not be resistant and if we don't go who will love all of that is there and i don't i don't know the

answer to this and like i said i'm the i'm the bleeding edge guy is there a line where it's too

far i mean this is the type of thing that i wrestle with um some some of the crazy conversations that

i'm having right now and we'll we'll reconcile it later dj soto is going to come on the podcast and

in december and we're gonna we're gonna have some fun talking about this but you know um

what's what's what's the game called mmo uh game uh final fantasy 14 final fantasy 14 is actually

10 years old it was it was created in 2010 there are still 22 million people who are actively playing

this game online uh not because they want to beat up the the big bad but because that's where their

community and that's where their their friends are and that and i just i look at that and i'm like

there's 22 million people who play a video game because that's where they find community um you know

how can we create church in those communities now the church in those communities and i was i was

actually talking with uh uh an mmo gamer yesterday who's interested in planting that and not in final

fantasy but in another video game and and it's it looks different it's not i you know and i talk

with her about what her church is um and and i'm listening to her i'm like you know you're probably

i don't know that you're going to get like the the the chills i don't know that you're going to get

that from a uh from a church that's in an mmo video game but when i look at the potential of what

you could do in mmo i think that it may look different but i still think it aligns with what

you could do um biblically what we're called to be in the ecclesiology uh that that we're called to be as

the church so anyway it's really fascinating is there i'm just curious because i always like

asking crazy questions is is there a line or is it trust god and see what he does like how do we

proceed forward into things like this where where where is too far that's that's a fascinating thing

right because we're living in an era of video teaching for instance like i i have i i come from

a video teaching church jeff you know your family attends a video teaching church and then alex and

jamie i saw that you guys do multi-site i don't know if that's your primary form of teaching or not

but um but that right there is interesting in terms of hey jeff you communicate to her hey i

don't know if this could happen i remember once upon a time we were saying that with video teaching

hey i don't know how people will respond to this if the guy is not on the stage i don't know if

the message will be conveyed in the same way and yet here we are you know almost 20 years later

right and we've got lots of folks coming to christ and now we got lots of folks coming to christ online

and making you know kind of like what jamie alluded to earlier in terms of relationship decisions like

long-term binding eternal decisions you know in terms of their relationship with jesus

so is it possible that they could experience the emotional there absolutely is there a line uh yeah

but there's a i think there's a line also with in-person experiences too where we can where we

should be careful and we should take caution in terms of how manipulative we can be in terms of a

of a service to lead people down the wrong path in terms of their relationship with jesus

and that's where you know there's a number of different churches that have arisen or even

denominations that have arisen almost based on that right where they've taken people down the wrong

path based on emotion both christian and otherwise right um shoot i don't know if any of you have

seen the documentary on tony robbins but man borderline folks are there uh you know having emotional

experiences but at the same time it's not a christian event and so we have to be careful in terms

of how we're doing that as well alex game any thoughts on that um i was just thinking about

you know especially i'm not much of a gamer other than like i think i stopped with like lego batman

um but you know like i think and i'd love to see these i hope to see them soon um some of these

online gaming i'd like to see how it works because my question would be how do you have a christ-focused

gathering in those spaces um where you are worshiping together because at some point like

when are you worshiping the game or the thing that the commonality that brings you together and when

does that become we're gathered together for jesus like we're gathered together because god's on the

throne um wherever that place is that would be my question um in any space is how do we make sure that

those gatherings are christ-focused um whether they stem out of any other topic or commonality i think

that's cool but it's got to be jesus focused at some point love love that it's got i mean obviously

christ-centered towards it hey uh yes we're running short on time and so let's i want to go ahead and

and wrap the plane uh land the plane wrap up a man mixing totally mixing analogies here not a good

podcast day uh we're crashing the plane at this point i guess because we've had too many

too many mixed drinks um alex jamie uh thank you for uh for jumping on on the podcast here for for

alex for jamie for ray this is jeff at the church digital and stadia church planning thanks for

joining us here on the pod and we'll see you next time here at the show y'all have a good day