EP106: Liberty University & the Academia of Online Ministry

Hey, we got episode 106 of the Church Digital Podcast, powered by State of Church Planning.

Jeff here.

Hey, I'm on vacation.

I don't know if you can tell.

I'm literally sitting here in Disney Hollywood studios, people walking by.

It's awesome.

Great, great time.

Rise of the Resistance, Star Wars, best Disney experience I've ever been on.

Phenomenal stuff.

Hey, listen, let's talk about episode 106 here.

Great conversation.

We're really starting to get into some of the theological implications of Church Online.

Brought in Professor Steve Lowe into the conversation.

Now, Professor Steve, Professor Lowe, excuse me, Liberty is starting up an online track where you can get a, eventually, your master's, your MDiv, with an emphasis in online ministry.

Really fascinating.

There are a lot of seminaries out there that are doing that.

So we talk about it here with Professor Lowe on the podcast.

Why don't schools see this?

And what is Liberty doing to really get into that space?

Into the conversation as well, we're bringing Dan Tebow.

Dan is a seminary student, one of these seminary students that are on this track to do online ministry.

And so we have this conversation.

Bring Ray DeArmis, of course, into the conversation.

Phenomenal, phenomenal show.

So episode 106, digging into the future of the theology of Church Online.

Okay, everybody, here you go.

Tell me what's happening at Liberty.

Let's start there.

Tell me what's happening at Liberty and how you guys are creating now training online ministers.

You would think that the pandemic would have put the kibosh on enrollments, but it really hasn't.

Our enrollments have gone up during this time period.

We're at our largest enrollment for online students in the history of the institution.

We're at 105,000 online students, and we have 15,000 students on campus.

So the online portion of the university has continued to grow and expand, which includes the School of Divinity.

We probably have, oh, if not the largest, maybe the second largest footprint in terms of student enrollment for online than any of the other colleges or schools in the university.

We have about 18, and we have about 18 total of those.

So we've been doing this for quite a while.

We have gotten into the online portion probably within the last 10 years or so.

We have been using the Blackboard platform as our learning management system.

We are in the process of migrating to Canvas, which is a lot of work for everybody in the institution that's involved in online learning.

I'm a combination of jobs there.

I have administrative responsibilities.

I have teaching responsibilities.

I have dissertation guidance responsibilities and course creation, including the cognate that we have for digital church ministry.

So it's a hybrid kind of environment where most of us are working both on campus and online.

I teach this semester.

We have four courses on campus and four courses online.

So that's kind of typical of how things go.

And the combination of those keeps us kind of agile as we go through the semester, keep us on our toes.

We've learned over the years doing online education that it's easy to do it poorly.

It takes a lot of work and dedication and money to do it well.

And you have to have an ongoing professional development piece where you're constantly working with your faculty,

with your subject matter experts, with the staff that helps create the online environments and make them look nice and pretty and attractive and easy to use.

So all of that takes a great team effort to be able to pull that off.

And one of the great things about Liberty is that they dedicate a great deal of their resources to that.

In fact, I just had today at noon, I spent 30 minutes in a webinar for online faculty where we were kind of given some best practices in regard to grading and feedback and how to do that better.

So we get those at least once a month.

And so we're constantly trying to improve what we're doing.

Well, I tell you, even that ratio, it's not the conversation I wanted to have, but 15,000 students physically and 105,000 students online.

You know, in online church, we talk about how digital scales, how you have an opportunity to reach and engage and develop people spiritually.

And at least in academic circles, Liberty is showing that where you're reaching, I'm guessing the people are across the country and around the world that you're now doing this with in digital space.

How long have you guys been running this program or any sort of online courses there at Liberty?

Well, right from the beginning in 1971, when Dr. Falwell started.

They had the online in 1971?

Well, they didn't have online, but they had distance education.

They did correspondence education.

So they were doing it right off the bat.

In fact, they were using cassette tapes.

I think it was their first foray.

And then VCH tapes, videotapes, and then eventually CD-ROMs.

And then when the internet got up and running and things became more technologically available and workable, then they went online about, oh, probably 10 or 15 years ago.

Very cool.

I will say this, Liberty was one of the few schools that actually offered me financial aid to come to the school.

I was not a good football player, but I was a football player.

And Liberty was like the only school, Florida State, which I would never be a no.

But Liberty was like one of the few schools.

It was like, hey, here's a bunch of money to come play football for us.

And of course, I said no.

Well, look at us today.

8-0 ranked pretty high.

Yeah, I mean, my Horned Frogs are normally better than this year, but honestly, they've had a bad decade.

So the 2020s, hopefully, we'll be looking better for them down the road.

And of course, go Gaines.

I'm in Miami.

I have to say that.

Well, hey, and I cannot wait to have this conversation because my experience with seminary coming out of 2000.

I graduated 1999 from TCU, as I mentioned, and just, I was in Fort Worth, Texas, and there was a seminary down the road, Southern Baptist, you know, Southwestern's right there in the town.

And a lot of my friends were going that way.

And I've always been this, like, technological guide.

The first online Bible study I taught was in the year 2000.

And the more that I, just back then, that I looked at what seminaries were doing, the more that I was like, you know, I can't, what I feel called to do, I'm not seeing the seminaries doing.

And so I don't know that it's, like, worth me doing this and going into these schools.

And which is why I'm so excited 20 years later, when in the course of all of these webinars and speaking and all this stuff that I've been doing as a result of COVID, I get an invitation from Liberty University to speak for online ministry.

And there's a cognate that I don't even know that I really understand what a cognate is, but there's now education that's happening here.

And so, you know, love the fact that we get to bring you on, sir, and we're bringing on Dan Tebow as well, one of the students of Liberty University that's in the middle of this.

So, man, Dan, even just to open up with you, tell me your story of how you chose Liberty, how you got involved in this online ministry.

Was this like, what's your online ministry story?

How'd you get started into this?

So, for me, Liberty was one of those schools that I'd always heard about when I was in the military as being military friendly.

And that's kind of what turned me on to Liberty.

And when I got out of the active duty Air Force back in 2016, I had the post-9-11 GI Bill sitting there.

And I was fortunate enough when I was active duty to get my first master's degree through tuition assistance.

But I had these benefits.

I'm like, these are just sitting here.

I can't transfer my family because I'm already out of the service.

So, what am I going to do with them?

And it had been on my heart for a while to pursue some type of Bible college or seminary just to enrich my own walk with God.

And as I started praying about it and Liberty popped up one day, I think it was in a Facebook feed of all things, you know, advertising.

And so, I clicked on it and from there, I started looking through.

And out of all the seminaries I looked at online, they just made it the easiest to understand the process and to apply.

And honestly, just the benefits for not just military, but then also first responders.

I work in law enforcement.

And so, those things right there were, you know, no-brainers for me.

And so, I went ahead and applied and was able to get selected and approved to go to the Master of Divinity program.

And there are a lot of cognates, which are basically concentrations within the degree program.

I mean, there's several different ones.

The first was, I'll do apologetics.

And after, you know, taking the Apologetics 500, I'm like, I don't want to go that route for the long run.

And I checked out a couple others and looked at Biblical Languages, which was a 90-hour program.

And literally, over the summer, Liberty pushed out this, you know, this section on the website of new programs.

I'm like, what new programs do we got?

And sure enough, there was, you know, Church Ministry for the Digital Age.

I'm like, no way.

Like, that's awesome because of the fact, with me being a military guy, I value, you know, the face-to-face communication,

whether it's Zoom or FaceTime or whatever it is, being traveling a lot and understanding the importance of using technology to stay connected.

And just seeing that.

And then I could go on a long story.

My best friend is actually in South Carolina, Charleston area.

And we have only met in person twice, but we've been best friends for over a decade.

And it was just through the grace of God meeting on a Fellowship of Christian Athletics forum through the endurance.

We did ultra running.

And I met him there in 2011.

And it just started, you know, kind of like a pen pal almost.

But it was through email and forums.

And he's become my greatest mentor.

And so it's just for me personally, I've seen the value of technology and using it to build intentional relationships.

And so when Liberty pushed out the Cognit, I was like, that's a no-brainer for me.

I signed up and, you know, it was funny when I signed up and got started with Dr. Lowe.

I looked at the class roster and I was like, I'm the only one in here right now.

What's going on with that?

But it's just because it's so new.

And I'm hoping and praying that through this podcast that it just gets the word out that, you know, Liberty has something out there that no other seminary has.

And this is the time to jump on it because it's the leading edge of what God's able to do with the kingdom through technology.

Yeah, well, let's talk a little bit about that.

Like there's not a lot of other seminaries that are doing this.

I don't know that I've heard anybody.

Honestly, there may be one or two.

But how did Liberty get to this place?

Online, digital, pre-COVID, very controversial idea.

Even mid-COVID, you know, there are still people that want to get back to February 2020.

Let's just reset and go back to the way that we were as quick as possible.

And so Liberty, you know, is kind of being a little bleeding edge here and saying, hey, we want to acknowledge this whole online ministry thing.

We want to start to train our people.

We want to help reproduce that.

Steve, sir, what was that process?

What did that look like for Liberty to come to this realization?

Well, you have to be ready for an endurance run when you do these at Liberty because it is a really protracted process.

They have a lot of hoops that you have to jump through.

So we started working on this a year ago.

And what prompted it was my thinking that really got carved out for me when I was at Michigan State University as a student studying under Ted Ward there,

who served at that institution for 30 years as a Christian, cranked out a lot of students over the years.

And one of the things he taught us in curriculum courses was curriculum is not something that you're doing now.

A good curriculum is one that's forward facing.

It's preparing students for the future, not for the present.

And as I looked at the landscape of what we were doing in the School of Divinity, everything that we were doing was geared towards preparing students for brick and mortar church ministry of one form or another,

either in an existing church or church planting or something of that sort.

And nothing at all was offered in regard to preparing students for digital church ministry, which I knew was out there and a vibrant part of many institutions and many churches,

but wasn't on our radar screen at all.

So I began with my wife, Mary, putting this program together, going through the process of getting it approved and creating a cognate that we hope will eventually enlarge over the years and become an entire degree program itself.

So we've kind of built into the way in which we have structured it around four kind of skills that we want students to develop, an opportunity for those to grow.

We have four courses now, one each for each of those skill areas, and eventually we hope to expand those into other areas, including areas of digital discipleship, digital evangelism, and things of that nature.

Awesome. First, Dan, thank you for serving in our military. Just especially wanted to highlight that, man. Just grateful for you, man. Thank you.

Dr. Lowe, those four areas, man, can you please share with us what those are? Because I think this is fascinating. Can you dive in a little bit deeper and share those with us?

Yeah, digital theology is one area that we have, digital formation, and then digital community, and then finally digital strategies.

So we have a course for each one of those right now. The course that Dan took last term was the foundational course.

It's a course on the theology of networks, having students think through the biblical and theological basis for doing online digital ministry.

And then the course he's taking now from my wife, Mary Lowe, is on spiritual formation.

And then he's also, I think, taking another one from me on ministry practice.

That is kind of the basic skills of how you set up a digital ministry.

So they're designed to give students basic skills so that once they graduate from us,

they could step into a ministry somewhere and not have to be brought up to speed by the church.

They would already have some skills in place.

Most importantly, they would have a good biblical theological reason, rationale for doing this kind of ministry and be able to defend that if they need to from both scripture and from theology, the history of the church.

That's wonderful.

Dan, what kind of books does Dr. Lowe have you reading in digital theology, man?

I'm curious, man.

Seminary guys, we're book collectors, bro.

So I want to hear what's going on.

Right?

Should I start with the one that both Dr. Lowe's wrote together?

No.

I would, yeah.

That's Ecologies of Faith, which I actually, I sent him an email yesterday.

I was like, man, chapter five is where it's all at.

Because, you know, the argument for digital ministry is, you know, so many folks, as we know, are like, well, we have to have face-to-face interaction, which to an extent, yes, we do.

The digital ministry is not going to replace physical gatherings and connections.

But why not bridge the gap, especially with 2020 teaching us the impact of the, you know, global pandemic and everything else that's been going on in our country.

And so to get back to the rest of the books, you know, there's some other ones out there.

The Social Media Gospel, The Ecologies of Faith, I mentioned that one.

What's the other one?

The Virtual Body of Christ.

Yeah.

That was last course, if I'm right.

So, I mean, it's just, there's a wealth of knowledge out there of independent folks that have dug into the topic, but nobody's spearheaded it yet.

And that's what I'm thankful for Liberty doing with this program is we have structure to it to where now we can, how, what does this look like as a program?

How do we actually take these ideas and these experiences people are having amidst, you know, global pandemic again?

And how do we leverage those things for moving ahead?

And, I mean, there's just so many opportunities with that, you know, just taking the simple basis of understanding that when we look at the early disciples, they were scattered.

And in that, in and of itself, you know, they were immediately starting ministry, going out and getting the job done through the Great Commission.

And we, as a church, especially a Western church, have become so comfortable with our traditions of, you know, meeting in a building and having small groups and programs within that to where we miss the opportunities to go out.

And just digital ministry is kind of holding our feet to the fire as a church of, hey, there's a job to do.

Let's go be, you know, proactive in that instead of reactive and trying to get folks to come to us.

We need to go to them.

And so, I mean, there's all kinds of avenues we could go with that.

But there's just so far, you know, I'm now, I finished one course of the Cognitant.

I'm in the other two.

I'll take the next one after Christmas.

And I've been beyond motivated in the past, you know, eight weeks, 10 weeks at this point.

I'm four semesters into my Master of Divinity.

I'll have two semesters left.

But this chunk has been golden because of the fact that, like I said, for my own story, having traveling so much and been to different areas and having to leverage technology to stay connected with people.

And then the relationships I've dealt with my buddy Adam and stuff like that.

It's one of those things that I'm now being given tools that I can build a community that's decentralized.

And they have basically a base camp to come to, get trained, get equipped, have fellowship, and then replicate, you know, basic discipleship, replicate it in their own networks where they're at.

And it's really a launching arm for the church.

And so that's just kind of some basic thoughts on it.

But I don't know how far you want to go with that.

I don't want to take the whole conversation.

Beautiful.

Dan, just tell me, even coming out of this, like, so you got one year left.

What's next?

What does ministry look like?

You're doing that, that digital Cognitant.

Like, how are you going to apply this when you're walking away with a degree?

Certainly.

So for me, I've been very fortunate to kind of experience two different realms of digital ministry.

I serve my local church here at Be Hope Church in Beaver Creek, Ohio.

And, you know, they have, you know, they're basic.

They're a very well-rounded church for the local community.

But they've been streaming their service now for, I want to say, four or five years.

And so within the past two years, the online campus pastor came up to me and goes,

Hey, I think if you're really good at the social media thing, you're going to help me build this thing.

And it was about the same time that I started at Liberty.

And so as I'm trying to figure this out, how do we build a Facebook group?

How do we, you know, leverage that to meet the needs of the congregation?

How do we go beyond a Sunday morning or a Sunday afternoon?

And, you know, I think it's DJ is our campus pastor.

He always says, I think it's 167 or 176 hours of the week.

What are you going to do with that outside of Sunday?

And so that's where, when it comes to taking a physical church and launching into digital ministry,

we have such an opportunity to continue to grow and to invest in the people throughout the week,

where it's too easy just to, you know, get into our routines and become lukewarm through the week,

which is the worst thing we can do in our walk.

And so having that opportunity to build that Facebook group and go from literally two people to,

I think we were at 560 now, just two years later.

And there's meaningful conversation that happens in there throughout the week.

We get people sharing their testimonies, sharing prayer requests, praise reports,

reaching out for extra help in the community.

And I mean, that in itself, you know, especially when we've got social distancing and everything going on,

we have, we still have that connection.

We have those meaningful interactions.

And that's just something in a group.

You're still having folks that are now communicating one-on-one,

whether it's FaceTime or Zoom or anything like that.

So there's so many different tenets that you can use digital ministry

to completely bolster up and reinforce your physical church.

And there's so many things that I would tell a traditional physical campus or pastor of,

hey, take this and let it grow what you're doing.

You know, it's not going to replace it.

Don't be afraid of it.

It's there for you.

And so that's kind of my one exposure to digital ministry.

But then the other part of it is something I've been starting called Servant Warrior.

And that's basically a digital ministry, more or less,

that I've decided to finally take the leap of faith and jump into.

And that's where I'm fortunate to have Professor, you know,

Lowe and his wife to go through and encourage me to step out into that.

And what I've done basically is, for me, I'm a guy who works in law enforcement.

And guys don't like to talk one-on-one in the first place.

They're always the hardest to get to open up to each other.

But then you add into that type A personality of military law enforcement,

it's even worse.

You know, everyone wants to joke and have fun,

but nobody wants to be real with one another.

And so it's an interesting group of individuals to really start to crack that egg

and start to drain it out and be real and transparent and support one another

in the walk of life, especially this year for law enforcement.

It's been very unique.

And so what I've done with that is it started on Facebook,

just reaching out to guys that I knew personally of,

hey, I know you're, you know, either one,

have faith and are trying to strengthen that through this year,

or you are questioning faith.

Let me start a conversation with you and work through that.

Or just people that are looking for the answer of where do they find rest and restoration and peace.

And so there's a lot of different opportunities to evangelize and discipleship in that.

And so I started with a small group.

And through that small group,

we've now grown to about 34 guys that are pretty active and talking.

And actually within the past couple of weeks,

kind of shifted my model a little bit.

And, you know, I'm basically testing it out as I go

to where it started as a small, small group on Facebook.

I had the basic Instagram, the Facebook page, you know,

kind of the run of the mill basic, you know,

tenants that you would have in a digital brand.

But as I was looking at that, you get this push,

especially in the podcasting world, to try to reach out and get everybody.

You want to impact everybody.

You want to influence everybody, which is good for a podcast.

But if you're trying to build community

and you're trying to build intentionality,

that's going to be transformational,

you need something a little bit more focused and in depth.

And so I decided to shut down the Instagram

and migrate the Facebook page.

And actually by your recommendation,

after talking to different platforms that were out there,

I moved them over to Discord.

And Discord has been an amazing platform for this group of guys.

It is basically, I call it a chat room on steroids.

And it reminds me of the old AOL type messenger environment

where, you know, you can get in there

and just have direct conversations.

But they've went through and being a gamer community

that started it, they had a lot of video and audio.

And so we've had, just last week,

I had a video voice call with four guys in the group.

One of them was in Peru.

One was in Japan.

One was in South Carolina.

And I'm here in Ohio.

And we got to have an actual conversation

and talk about their walks and what they were struggling with.

And it just, it blew my mind when I hung up.

I'm like, here I am literally talking to someone

on the other world, you know, the other side of the world,

someone south of the equator,

and then someone here in the States.

But we're developing relationships

that there's just general conversation going on.

And you can't have that when you're confined

to a brick and mortar building.

You know, if someone, the guy that's in Japan

is actually a former ROTC cadet that I trained.

He's working and doing some really cool things overseas.

And, you know, being able to take that relationship

that I had in person and invest time into it

through digital media and digital ministry,

he still has that connection.

And it's just been very awesome to see.

So that's just kind of my exposure to how things are going

for the opportunities in digital ministry.

And for me, when I finished this program, this degree,

I was actually talking to Mary Lowe yesterday evening

about opportunities.

And basically she turned my attention

to the Doctor of Education for Christian Leadership

and looking at my background and everything,

it's something I'm gonna be praying over

for the next few months to see if that's the route to go.

And basically it's, you know, taking leadership principles,

applying to the Christian walk,

but then also doing research dedicated to

what do we do to lead the digital church?

And so there's a lot of opportunities there

that honestly I'm getting pretty excited about thinking about.

So that's something that I think I will pursue after this.

And then definitely whether the Lord says

before I retire from law enforcement or after,

I do foresee some type of full-time ministry

in my future for sure.

Dr. Lowe, you've done a very good job training him.

They're, you know, just even listening to him talk.

You know, so often you get a young guy, new guy,

he's touting all this money, I need all this gear,

I need all this structure, you know, give me the studio.

Everything he just said was free.

You know, maybe you're paying five bucks a month for Discord

if you want like all the features

that you probably don't even need.

And so, you know, even what I love here,

and even Dan, just to hear you say,

yeah, I was doing this and we pivoted, we changed.

I started exploring some other ideas

and we went a different direction.

We'd learned something and we adjusted from it.

And so like, this is beautiful.

I just had a gentleman reach out to me yesterday

that he was like,

hey, I'm glad we made the move from Facebook

because Facebook, he just didn't, he didn't feel safe.

And if you don't feel safe having a conversation,

then why are we going to stay there?

And he was like, Discord, I feel like is private

and he works in law enforcement.

And he was like, you know, I feel like I can connect here.

And I mean, he was sharing some photos from his job

and, you know, telling me what he did

and, you know, me having a law enforcement background,

it was a nice mutual connection.

But just hearing that he didn't feel safe

and having a good spot in Facebook,

just for different reasons,

it's to me as a leader in any type of environment,

especially in ministry,

we need to reach people where they are,

which many folks will think,

okay, well, that means cast a big net,

you know, go for the whole ocean.

But at the same time, it's not about just fishing,

it's about then investing in that time.

And so it's just one of those things

that you've got to,

you got to target it right

and don't be afraid to change.

Dr. Lowe, what does strategy look like?

One of your four classes is strategy.

How are you training people

towards having a digital strategy?

That's not an easy thing to do,

especially, you know,

they may have understanding

that may come in completely cold.

So how do we educate future pastors

to have a digital strategy?

Well, one of the things we try to help students do,

especially in that first course,

but really throughout the entire

Cognate itself,

and I would say throughout the entire

degree program that we put students in,

but especially in this area

that we're talking about,

we kind of zoom out

and then we zoom in

to give them perspective.

So in the zooming out phase of things,

we're trying to give them

the big picture overview

of how God has created the world.

It is an interconnected world.

That's part of the creational design

that's there from the very beginning.

And that feature of interconnectedness

touches all levels of our existence

as human beings.

It's at a quantum level,

physical level,

creational level,

social level,

certainly physical,

and we would argue spiritually as well.

And so part of what it means

from the wisdom literature

of the Old Testament

to have the fear of the Lord

is to recognize that order

and that arrangement

and that intelligence

that's organizing the world

in which God has made

and cooperating with the way

in which God has designed

that world to function.

And part of that

has to do with this reality

that God has made things

to function and to grow

in a certain kind of way

that's consistent with that.

And that's kind of where

our discussion of spiritual formation

comes into play

because we recognize

that what we see

in the spiritual realm

in terms of how we grow

as Christians

is really part of a larger reality

of how things grow

and everything that God has made.

That's the reason why

in both the Old Testament

and the New Testament,

especially in the parables of Jesus

and in the writings

of the Apostle Paul,

they always point us back to nature

and have us look at

some feature of natural growth

to illustrate a feature

of spiritual growth

in the kingdom

or in the church

or in the individual Christian.

And all of that,

we argue,

is part of the way

in which God

has designed things to function.

It's an ecological reality.

It's where we get that language.

And so we try to bring that to bear

in terms of how we teach students

to read the scriptures,

that there is this pattern

that's there in the word of God

that where it all hangs together

and makes sense

and there's cogency there.

There's a beauty to its unity.

And so we try to help students

see that from Genesis to Revelation,

to see the missional movement of God

from the opening chapters of Genesis

to the closing chapter

of the book of Revelation.

And if there is purpose

and design in all of this,

and what we have to do

as God's people,

especially as we're preparing

for ministry,

is to understand that reality

and figure out

where we plug into it.

And part of that reality

that we see from scripture

is that when the New Testament

talks about the church,

it always talks about it

in the combination

of the church gathered

and the church scattered.

The book of Acts

is built that way.

The first seven chapters

of the book of Acts

describes the church

gathered in Jerusalem.

The beginning in chapter 8

through 28,

there the focus changes

and we see the church

scattered around the globe.

And that combination

of the church gathered

and scattered

is the true nature

of the church.

We've only emphasized

one half of it

up to this point in history,

but now because of realities

that confront us,

we're being forced

to think more deeply

about this

and to go back

to our biblical roots

and to examine things

a little more closely

and to recognize

that we missed something

all these years

because we are so focused

on one idea

of what the church is like

or where church took place.

But now we're beginning

to see a more global perspective

and I think it's that

that we help our students

see and to understand.

Dr. Lowe,

I couldn't agree more.

This is fascinating

because for a long time

the church has focused

more on the church gathered.

This degree does much

to legitimize

from a global church perspective

our views

on digital and online ministry.

Talk to me about,

because, you know,

obviously in order

to pursue this,

you're thinking about

down the road too

in terms of what

this is going to do.

How do you see

something like this

having an impact

on Western church,

how we view online ministry,

its legitimacy?

Because this opens up

to me a lot of doors

for this.

And so how do you foresee

this making an impact?

Well, there's kind of

an ancient future

connection to it,

I think.

When you go back

to the book of Genesis

and you look at

the way in which

Abraham,

Isaac,

and Jacob

carried out

their understanding

of the mission of God

that was established

in Genesis chapter 12,

Genesis 12 · chapter mention

what you see them doing

is building altars

at strategic locations

in the land of promise.

In fact,

all of the altars

that the patriarchs built

are on one single

north-south roadway

that had the potential

of not only reaching

the inhabitants

of the land,

but the inhabitants

of the world.

Because all the nations

of the world

who wanted to do commerce

around the world

with Egypt and Assyria,

they all passed through there.

So Israel was strategically

located by God purposely

so that she could carry out

her mission

to the nations of the world.

Well, I think we have today

a technological altar

that we can plant anywhere.

And through those

building of altars

on the internet,

we have the potential

of reaching the same audience,

the nations of the world.

That mission hasn't changed.

It hasn't been rescinded.

We're just using

new methodologies

for doing it.

They built physical altars.

We're going to build

digital altars,

but we're really doing

the very same kind of thing.

We're being consistent

with what God

has called us to do.

That was beautiful.

Can people audit your class?

Can I just like hang out,

be like the Zoom

like fly on the wall?

Like that was,

oh my gosh.

Where were you 20 years ago?

I would totally

would have done this.

This is great.

Let me ask this question.

I don't even know

if I can ask that question.

That was just incredible.

All right.

So I did a webinar.

I think it was one of the times

that I spoke at Liberty.

Honestly,

and I don't mean this ego,

like I've spoken so many times

in the past eight months.

I don't even like remember

half the time

if I've done it or not.

But I spoke at a seminary

or a university

and there was a student,

seminary student

in the thing.

And one of the questions

that popped up,

and honestly,

it kind of stuck with me.

The question was basically,

yeah,

I'm almost done

with my degree.

And like all this digital stuff

is now happening,

COVID to reality.

Do I need to just like start over?

Do I need to just give up

all this physical training

and shift over

to a digital mindset?

Now,

I'm curious kind of

what your response is

because what I hear

is not digital for digital,

but I really feel

what I'm hearing,

it sounds like

it's more of a dispersed mindset,

not necessarily digital technology,

but more disciple making

and empowering

and priesthood of all believers.

Like what is this tension

that we're living in

and of doing digital ministry

versus maybe just doing

the biblical ministry

that God called us to

in digital space?

Like talk to me a little bit

about this here,

Dr. Lowe.

Well,

last spring,

I did an interview

with Christianity Today,

Mark Gallaty,

their editor-in-chief

at the time.

And one of the things

I said in that interview

was that we're doing

church ministry

in a digital age,

but we're using

an analog model

to do it.

And what I meant

by that was that

in many cases,

our theology

has not caught up

with the technology.

We have theological

and biblical ideas

and concepts

of the church,

let's say for instance,

that are,

whether we realize it

or not,

are tied to place.

When in reality,

when Paul talks

about the church,

he talks about

being tied

to a person.

Place is irrelevant

for him.

It was relevant

for Judaism.

It was relevant

for Second Temple Judaism

out of which he came.

But he had

a revolutionary encounter

with the Lord

on the road to Damascus.

And that encounter

with the Lord

changed his perspective

from wanting

to inherit

a place

in the land

to wanting

to inherit

a relationship

in Christ.

And so that relationship

in Christ

became the dominant

thinking that Paul had

and the core

of that

was his understanding

of the church

as the body

of Christ.

And his idea

of the church

was global,

cosmic

in its thinking

and in its perception.

He saw

the body

of Christ

as the basis

for the interconnectedness

of all the

beautiful members

that make up

that body.

We are all

connected to Christ

as the head

and all of our

spiritual nutrients

flow from him

but they flow

through

other members

of the body

of Christ.

And it's the combination

of flowing from

and flowing through

that makes possible

the growth

of the body

regardless

of where

you have it

manifested physically

or digitally.

It doesn't make

any difference

because in the spirit

Christians are always

present

and never absent.

And that theological

truth needs to govern

how we look at

digital and

physical church ministry.

Dr. Lowe,

just out of curiosity

because I know

Jeff talked a little bit

about the digital strategy.

For me,

one of the weaknesses

coming out of seminary

was so much strategy

was weighed in

what was

in terms of times past,

what had succeeded

in times past.

How are you guys

keeping an eye on

pushing your students

towards looking

towards the future

and staying adaptable

within a digital

strategy?

Well,

we don't have

to do much.

I think

you got a good

example of it

here in Dan

in terms of

what he is like

coming into our

program.

We don't have

to do a whole

lot of retooling

there because

the Lord has

already been

working in his

heart.

He's already

been shaped

in terms of

his current

ministry and

all we have

to do is

kind of do

some nudging

here and there

and that's

basically it

because we

have a different

student clientele

today than

we've had

in the past.

I see the

difference

dramatically

before me

every day

either on

campus or

online.

It's a

different group

of students

than what

we've had

in the past

and they're

aware of

these digital

realities.

They live a

blended existence

already and they

understand the

relationship between

the two and

so it's a lot

easier with the

contemporary

audiences that we

have in most of

our classes

at the

university to

be able to

make the case

for that because

they're already

doing those kinds

of things.

It's not every

day that you

have a student

like Dan who's

taking your

class and he

actually takes

what you're

teaching him and

uses that to

build an online

ministry.

So those are

the kinds of

things that

happen when you

have the ability

to work with

students who are

already in the

process of being

formed.

That's the reason

why we have this

ecological frame of

reference.

We recognize that

we are not the

only place where

students are going

to be impacted

and transformed

through the

educational experience

they have with

us.

We recognize that

they're connected

and interconnected

to a variety of

ecological environments

that are all

having an impact

and influence on

their thinking,

on their behavior,

on their ministry

skills, and all of

that.

So we're a part

of it, but we're

not the whole thing.

Is the average

student, and Dan

may be the

unicorn, I don't

know.

I mean that in a

good way, Dan,

not that you're

pink and have a

horn on your

head.

Does the

average student

walk in, 2020,

COVID screwed

everything up.

Like, the typical

model of church

has exploded, at

least what I'm

seeing from

Stadia Church

Planning.

People now want

to launch, they

want to launch

big churches, they

want to launch

microsite churches,

they want to

launch digital

churches.

Like, the model,

which means some

of the strategy

really that you

want to coach

through has

changed because

at this point

there's so many

bifurcated ideas

of what church

is that I

could see where

it would be

hard to train

people because

how you do

things digitally

or how you do

things in micro

or how you do

things in launch

large or how

you become a

physical missionary

or a digital

missionary, like

there's a lot

of different

specialties in

these areas.

Do seminary

students, when

they come in

cold, like

freshman year,

first year I

should say, do

they know what

they want to

do?

Do they not

know?

Like, is there a

strong calling or

is it more like

on average, what

are you feeling?

Maybe for both

you guys, what

are you seeing

coming out?

What are the

seminary students

looking to do or

do they even

know yet?

I'll talk from

a professor

perspective and

what I have

seen, especially

over the last

five years, is

that the

most of the

students who

are coming

in have a

pretty clear

idea of what

it is they're

going to get

out of the

seminary

experience.

They already

have a pretty

clear picture of

where they're

going to head

after they

graduate, and

they're actually

involved in

doing things

right now.

I had a

student the

other day who

got up and

gave a report

in class talking

about her

online youth

ministry that

she's conducting

so that she

meets twice a

week with this

group of young

people, and

she has a

whole design

in place that

she created

herself that

she goes

through.

She has

certain things

she does in

one session,

certain things

she does in

another, and

she has a

really clear

idea of what

she's trying to

accomplish and

how to do it.

So what we're

doing for her

is tweaking all

of this and

giving her some

additional tools

and insights to

kind of enlarge

her already

present toolkit

doing something

she was already

doing when she

came to us.

So that's

kind of the

rule these

days rather

than the

exception as

it was in

the past.

What are you

seeing, Dan?

So I mean,

for me, when I

started, I didn't

necessarily know

where it was

going to go.

I actually

switched probably

three or four

different cognates

before this one

came up.

I mean, clearly

God knew it was

coming and it

was all part of

the plan, but

me, I'm trying

to figure it

out along the

way, right, as

we all do.

But it was

just one of

those things

that I knew

for me, God

was pulling me

towards seminary.

It had been

something before I

got out of the

military, I was

like, you know,

this is something

that started to

really work on

me and there's

a lot of

questions and I

remember having

conversations with

friends that were

in ministry and

never felt the

definite call yet.

But with the

start of everything,

it's been a

no-brainer that

yes, there's a

call there and

how that's going

to manifest is

still to be

determined, but

I'm definitely

along for the

ride and

whatnot.

I'm going

back earlier

to a couple

of questions

that were asked

really for the

student during

the webinar and

I was nodding

my head yes

when you mentioned

it because I

remember watching

that webinar and

that question

coming in and

you were like,

well, how do I

answer that?

Because so many

folks are, you

know, they're

like, well, do I

leave physical to

go to digital?

But really, I

would almost be

of the argument

of, you know,

physical has its

place.

I mentioned that

earlier, it's not

going to be

replaced.

But instead of

what I would

challenge folks to

do is instead

of starting

with physical,

because we

already know what

that looks like,

instead of

starting with

physical, start

with the digital

and see how

digital can

create physical.

And that's

where we go

from that

scattered mindset

to going out

and building

the church.

Because before

you know it,

if you invest

in digital,

you're going to

find physical

growing.

And something

that I had the

exposure of

experiencing, I

was part of the

CrossFit community

and functional

fitness when I

was in military.

And there's a

ministry out there

called FaithRx.

The RX is

prescription, you

know, doing a

workout as

prescribed.

So they

used the

FaithRx method

and Jim

Konzelman and

Becky Konzelman,

she passed

recently, but

they started

this ministry

up where, you

know, they

were basically

putting more

or less house

churches inside

CrossFit gyms.

And they were

serving folks

where they were

at and building

community.

And it's

turned into a

digital community

where they have

basically chapters

or cells all

over the United

States that meet

in gyms and

they have local

ministry leaders,

but they all

come back to

the website for

devotional content

and networking

and forums and

social media.

And it's just

one of those

things that by

launching through

digital, you

extend your reach,

you allow yourself

to have different

base camps started

up in different

areas.

And it goes

back to my

second point to

go back earlier

is if we focus

training and

methodology to

the spiritual

disciplines found

in Acts 2 42

and just get the

church back to

what the church

was created to

be in unity,

we can then at

that point go

through and start

equipping folks

to move.

And that's just

kind of my

thought process.

And through

that you see

that digital

ministry actually

wrote this an

assignment this week

is digital

ministry is in

essence the

spiritual body.

It's a

manifestation of

the Holy Spirit.

You know, by

going through and

letting the spirit

move within us

individually and

then moving

through digital

platforms, you're

seeing God show

up and make

a ways.

I mean, you

know, then we

go back to, you

know, the

printing press did

that when we

started having

print Bibles.

Oh, this is now

the new printing

press.

And for me, it's

like I want on

this train.

I want to see

where it's going,

you know, and

that's just one of

those things that I

would encourage

anyone listening to

this, that if

there's questions,

reach out, ask

the questions, but

don't hesitate to

take that step of

faith because digital

ministry is clearly

where God is

leading his church

into the current

age.

So we're going to

go ahead and call

the ushers forward,

Oregonist, if you

would mind playing

M68.

Let's do it back to him.

That was beautiful.

Dan, you got a

solid head on your

shoulders.

You're going to do

fine in this online

ministry thing.

Dr. Lowe, you can

take full credit, I'm

sure.

Hey, this is beautiful.

I've got ecologies of

faith in a digital age

open in Amazon.

I will click the

little Kindle link

here in a minute and

type in my credit

card information.

If only to be able to

read, maybe I can't

attend a Liberty

class, but at least I

can expound on the

digital theological

challenges that we

have today in book

form.

So thank you very

much for that.

Hey, Ray, as we're

landing the plane here,

any closing thoughts

on your side?

Yeah, I love this on

so many different

levels.

You know, to Jeff's

point, I do wish that

there was an aspect of

this that existed, you

know, even as I was

going through seminary

because in times past

and this is kind of the

unfortunate thing, it

seemed like the church

and was, and even in

this case, you know,

was a little bit

behind in terms of,

man, we could have

been here already, but

sometimes like we get

in our own way and

thinking, oh man, but

but not yet because we

want to hold on to our

traditions and got to

give a lot of credit

to you, Dr. Lowe and

to you, Dan, for for

really just kind of

plowing through and

saying, no, there

there is complete

legitimacy to this and

this is how we're going

to reach the future of

the church.

And so for those folks

out there who are still

wondering, well, do I

need to build a good

base theology?

Do I need the

education?

The answer is yes,

you still do.

I was talking to

somebody today.

We got their seminary

education recently, but

they went through the

route of working for a

church first and they

wish that they had

gotten the education

first.

And so there is still

validity with seminary

education, with getting

that first as a ground

basis for why you do

what you do.

And in this case, understanding

why you're doing online

church from a spiritual

perspective, helping to

nurse some of those

things, will serve you

over the long haul.

You can hear it in Dan.

You can hear how it's

firing up his fuel as

to, man, I see God's

called me to this.

I understand it from a

scriptural perspective and

now I'm being released to

do ministry.

There is complete

validity to this and so go

for it.

Awesome.

Hey, Ray, I went ahead

and bought you a copy

too.

You're going to get an

email from Amazon about

that.

Amazon saved my credit

card.

Who knew your two

copies are good.

Hey, Dan, just as we're

wrapping up the plan here

briefly, any closing

thoughts?

To reiterate what I just

said, you know, it's one

of those things that it's

the time to embrace the

change.

I mean, God's moving in

crazy ways within our

country alone.

I mean, there's so much

that's going on that the

ground is ripe for

getting out there and

exploring digital media and

digital ministry and how

you can use that to reach

people.

People are looking for an

answer and don't

miss the opportunity to

deliver it to them

through their desktop,

through their mobile

device.

Those are all tools.

We can't miss that.

Amen.

And you were very well

spoken on the previous

one, so well done.

Dr. Lowe, wrapping up

the plane, what are you

thinking about this?

Well, I was struck by

Dan's comments about

comparing what we're

going through now to

the printing press and

its impact on not just

world culture, but the

church as well.

And Martin Luther took

advantage of that

technology.

He understood its

potential.

And so what we need

today, I think, is

again, another

reformational theological

support for the

technology.

We've got the

technology.

Now, are we doing our

biblical theological

piece to go with it

and combine it to be

able to get the kind of

results that Martin

Luther got from his

ministry back in the

1500s?

So I think we're on the

cusp here, maybe, of a

new reformation that's

going to broaden out our

thinking a little bit

more and provide a new

open door for the

church.

We don't need to have

95 theses nailed to the

Wittenberg church door,

but we may need to have

them nailed to the

internet in some fashion

so that we begin to

recognize that this is a

sacred space, too, that

God has created, and we

need to use it for his

honor and for his

glory.

Yeah, I've used that

analogy with the theses

nailed to the door

before, and people have

looked at me like I was

crazy.

So the fact that I now

have a theologically

trained person with

doctor in front of him

saying the same thing,

I have never been

happier than I am.

Okay, maybe not that

much, but it's a very

comforting day here.

So, gentlemen, Dr.

We're less crazy today,

Jeff.

We are less crazy today.

We have, there's

credibility here, or at

least this guy's as crazy

as we are.

I don't know which, but

it's awesome.

Well, gentlemen, thank

you very much for jumping

on the show.

There's a lot of people

on the screen here for

Ray, for Dr.

Lowe, for Dan.

By the way, we'll put

information on Liberty.

We'll get some information

from these guys, links in

the show notes about how

to get connected into the

Cognate.

Social media or their

contact information will be

on there as well.

We'll include some links

to the book here,

Ecclesiologies of Faith

in the Digital Age.

I just invested in two

copies, so looking forward

to reading that.

But we're going to wrap.

So, for Ray, for Dr.

Lowe, for Dan, this is

Jeff at the Church

Digital and Stadia

Church Planning.

Thanks for joining us

again here at the podcast,

and we'll see you next

time.

Y'all have a good day.