EP108: DJ Soto - Virtual Reality, Final Fantasy XIV, and the Church

All right, we got episode 108 of the Church Digital Podcast

powered by Stadia Church Planting.

I'm excited to share this episode with you.

We're bringing in probably one of my favorite

digital-only church planters.

Actually, check that.

We're bringing in one of my favorite

avatar church planters.

Now, that's a new term for it.

We're bringing in DJ Soto.

Let me back up and explain this idea of avatar church.

So we've got three different models of church.

You guys have heard me talk publicly about two.

We've got this idea of the established physical church,

the church that's at every street corner,

the church that's in your community.

It's got a physical street address.

The 99.99% of people attended these churches pre-COVID.

And so like this is the physical church.

Now, I would probably suggest at this point in 2020

that every church should be phygital.

There's a physical footprint

and there's a digital footprint of that church.

That's why Stadia, we use the term phygital,

P-H-Y-G-I-T-A-L.

And so all these churches are phygital.

But I think there's a second model of church.

And the second model of church that I would suggest

is these digital-only church plans.

Now, we've brought some of these people on the podcast.

You've heard from, you know,

Angela Craig, Pursued Church Live,

who's running an Assemblies of God church on Facebook.

We've, even just recently,

we heard from Jay Earhart,

who's running Love Clan,

this video game church through Discord,

as well as through Twitch.

And so like these are digital-only expressions of church.

There's no large gathering in a building.

There's no physical footprint.

They're aimed at digital community

because when they look at digital community,

they see a community that's worthy of a church.

And so they want to insert church into video games,

into Twitch, into Facebook.

And so that's the second model.

The third model here is what my friend with DJ Soto

is doing by creating an avatar church

because he's doing this in virtual reality.

Now, as I've been studying the three models,

the physical slash phygital,

the digital-only avatar,

to be honest,

this virtual reality thing

is completely different than the two.

It's completely different than the digital-only plan.

It's completely different

than what's happening in the physical,

phygital model.

Like what it takes to run,

what it takes to operate,

what it takes to lead.

How do we manage this?

And so it's this completely

different approach to church.

Now, listen,

coming out of this COVID season,

whatever the next normal is,

we need to be multimodal.

There's going to be all sorts of different churches

that are going to be created.

There's all sorts of different ideas

that are out there.

And honestly, there needs to be.

In this season,

there's so many different ideas.

We're all just trying to find our rhythm

and trying to subscribe to one specific plan.

Well, I think COVID accelerated us

away from that idea.

And now coming out of this multimodal,

I think you're going to see,

out of this COVID season,

you're going to see digital churches

do their thing.

You're going to see digital-only church plants

start to rise in popularity.

And I think you're going to see Avatar Church.

I think you're going to see that blow up

in the next couple of years.

And DJ Soto is a pioneer in this area.

And so in this podcast,

we dive in.

What's going on in VR Church?

Where are you growing?

Where are you expanding?

What does multiplication look like?

How are you doing what you're doing?

What does Christmas look like at VR Church?

Some really interesting conversations

centered around virtual reality.

And then I pull a thread a little bit.

And I'm excited about this one.

What is the bleeding edge guy?

Consider bleeding edge.

So DJ's already on the edge

doing this stuff in virtual reality,

creating these Avatar Churches.

What's the crazy idea that DJ's thinking?

And by the way, it's awesome.

It gets into this idea of,

yeah, you know what?

I'll go ahead and tease it.

I'll tell you.

MMO, video games.

How can we use Final Fantasy XIV

to connect people to Christ?

It's a radical concept.

Listen, half of you don't even know

what Final Fantasy XIV is.

The other half are Googling MMO right now.

And when you're realizing what I'm talking about,

you're probably freaking out

because you can't do church in a video game.

Are you kidding me?

Actually, I don't think I am.

I think there's some legs to this.

And we're going to talk about it here in the podcast.

So hey, for the conversation,

I'm bringing in DJ Soto,

lead pastor, virtual reality church,

VR church,

in a conversation that I'm simply calling

virtual reality, Final Fantasy, and the church.

Okay, everybody, here you go.

Having you and even getting to know you

outside of, you know,

through some of the contacts with Stadia,

but tell us here a little bit,

some of the audience that's listening

and tell us about what VR church is.

Maybe they don't know.

Maybe they haven't heard

some of those older episodes.

And so, yeah, like you're doing church

in virtual reality

and somebody's head out there just exploded.

So tell us a little bit,

like what VR church is

and maybe some of the improvements,

some of the expansion that you've done

maybe since the last time we talked.

Yeah, VR church was starting in 2017.

I guess technically 2016

is when we first started holding church services.

But when it transitioned into a community,

that was in 2017.

And I was a pastor at a physical church

for many years.

I felt God called me to do something new.

And what I thought new meant

was physical church plants.

But about that time in 2016,

the Oculus Rift came out.

This is the first consumer level virtual reality.

And VR has been around for a while for,

I don't know,

there's different eras of VR,

but not necessarily to the degree

where you could walk into Best Buy

and go to Amazon and purchase it.

That's a new,

we've never seen that before.

And so in 2016,

when VR was made to the consumer

at a very compelling level,

like an Xbox or a PlayStation or iPhone,

it's very functional

and very user-friendly,

use at home.

We jumped into it

because we're a family of technologists.

And we got into it

and just discovered the metaverse.

You know, people from all over the world

and their avatars,

you know,

in this immersive setting,

walking up to them,

shaking hands,

saying hello,

experiencing these events.

And that's when VR Church started to form

because I saw this unique opportunity

that I thought was extremely compelling

to experience the life of a church

in virtual reality.

So it's in a short,

we launched Virtual Reality Church.

It exists entirely in the metaverse.

We don't have a physical location.

And so at the time,

that was pretty,

you know,

ridiculed or disregarded,

maybe is a better word,

maybe not necessarily ridiculed.

But it's interesting to see now

how the attitude has changed quite a bit

as far as Virtual Reality Church is concerned.

And so,

yeah,

it's been a unique and awesome journey.

We fundamentally,

my wife and I are at the core,

our church planners.

So we've been planning multiple churches

within virtual reality.

So you can think of them like virtual,

or you can think of them like cities.

If you see like New York,

Paris,

Tokyo,

in the same way,

but different in VR,

there's these metaverses.

Altspace,

VRChat,

Rec Room,

Facebook has their own city

that's coming out.

And so we've planted

in all these different cities.

And so fundamentally,

VR Church at its core

is a church planning movement

in virtual reality.

And so we've been doing that.

If we want to borrow

physical church terms,

we have five campuses

or maybe we call them church plans.

We have five church plans.

And across the metaverse,

different time zones,

some for the European,

some for UK,

all English speaking at this point,

but we're working on

an international service as well.

It's been in the back of our mind.

One we've experimented with

and it's just fantastic.

It went really well.

It's just a matter of

getting it integrated

into our systems

and our capacity.

And so, yeah,

that's where we're at.

We went through a big reorganization

this past fall,

big one,

where at the core of that

was when we started VR Church,

we tried to replicate

the physical elements of the church,

the physical structure,

the physical construct.

There's not necessarily

anything wrong with that,

but we're in a different universe.

And so what we felt like

God was leading us to do

was not replicate,

but reimagine.

So we've just been,

we went through

a big reimagination process

this past fall.

And there's a lot of,

you know,

people may wonder

what's that about.

And I think it's just the way

that we approach church.

The,

I don't know,

the attitudes,

or maybe not attitudes,

but the way we express it

has definitely been different

in the metaverse

and the way we deliver sermons.

They're not on stage.

We experience them.

We build these worlds.

So that reimagination

is leading us

to many beautiful things.

And we're still seeking

what that means.

I don't think we've answered

the question we were asking,

what does it mean to reimagine?

I think we've begun

to answer it

and we're starting

to see the fruit of that.

So yeah,

this fall was pretty hectic,

but looking forward to

how we've set things up now

for the future,

I think is this really,

just really going to be

just positive

and exponential.

Well,

I tell you what,

COVID certainly helped

with accelerating

and getting more people

engaged in virtual reality

and more people engaged

with a digital church

and things like that.

And I want to pull a thread here

a little bit

because we were,

you know,

obviously you hinted towards it.

It's a reimagining

that are recreating

in virtual reality.

And I steal that language

a lot from you.

I give you credit

half the time,

I want to tell you,

when I'm talking towards

like planting digital churches.

Example like,

you know,

Jade Earhart,

who's a mutual friend,

actually was on the podcast

just last week.

It was some of the stuff

he's doing with Love Clan.

So like even what Jade's doing

with creating a digital expression

of church,

there's certainly a level

of reimagination

getting into some of the stuff

that he's doing with Twitch

and using that as a front door

to feed into disciple making.

And so there's a level

of reimagining

towards digital churches.

But I haven't really

talked about this much.

There's like this third category

that I would say

where you really get

into avatar

because the jump

between physical

to a digital only expression

of church,

I think is one jump.

But even how avatars operate

as I've been more,

you know,

getting connected

into that culture

and hearing stories

and seeing what's happening,

avatar is a completely

separate thing

than the physical

or even the digital only.

Would you agree with that?

Yeah, yeah, it's different.

And so here's,

and this is where it's tough

to have this conversation.

I was talking about this

with somebody

is that oftentimes

like virtual reality

or let's say digital churches

get pitted against physical.

So we're always trying

to compare the two.

And I'm trying to,

and I'm trying to get away

from that.

I'm trying to get away

that they all,

that maybe,

you know,

especially in COVID,

we've have come

and evolved to the understanding

that they both can exist

and they don't need to say

which one's better,

which one does this better.

We can just do well in physical.

We can do well

in digital and virtual reality.

So that's,

that's just a long way of saying

when I say,

when I talk about avatars

and interactions,

it is a superior experience.

Again,

and the reason I say

when I bring that qualification

is because I don't want it

to sound like it's better

than physical.

It just stands as its own

as a superior experience.

And that's because

you're meeting people

face to face again.

You think of like

just walking up to someone,

seeing them,

you know,

shaking hands,

saying hello.

And it's just that

immersive face to face elements

that I believe

Church Online

is going to evolve into.

Because Church Online

right now is

in a 2D environment.

You know,

we're consuming

a broadcast

and perhaps there's a chat

with interaction,

which is fantastic.

I love that

form of Church Online.

But then Church Online

in the future

is going to evolve

into 3D interactive

virtual reality environments

and perhaps even

augmented reality environments.

And maybe there's

a mix of two

and, you know,

we can throw on terms

like mixed reality

would probably be

a better term.

And so,

I think that people,

when they haven't

experienced VR

and they don't

know much about

the avatars,

they think it's weird

because it is.

When you see like

a 2D image

of your church,

it doesn't seem

that compelling.

But when you're there,

it's completely different.

When you're walking

up to people,

you see Jim

on the other side

of the room,

you see Sue over there,

you want to go talk to her.

It brings back

that serendipitous

interactions

that perhaps

a 2D broadcast

is limited to.

And so,

and so I think

I've talked about that before,

like those avatar interactions.

But one,

some of the things

I haven't talked about

is the sophistication

that these avatars

are being developed.

So right now,

or no,

things have evolved.

There's kind of like

a version two

of avatars happening

in the metaverse

across all of them.

But version one

kind of looked like

the Nintendo Wii's

characters,

not very,

just kind of like

polygon,

you know,

and I think

when you looked at it,

you go,

oh,

that's not very interesting.

Version two

is becoming more expressive

with eyes

and facial interactions.

And then,

what I've seen

some glimpses

of avatars

that look like

photorealistic,

like skin tones,

you know,

just elements

that are just

mind-blowing.

And that's where

we're going.

So sure,

in the early years

of VR,

the avatars

don't seem

that interesting,

but the evolution

and the glimpses

that we've seen,

you're going to have

a photorealistic

image of yourself.

Like this past Sunday,

and this has actually

happened this past Sunday,

President Barack Obama

was at church,

not him himself,

but an avatar

photorealistic

just looked like him

in real person.

I mean,

as close as you can get

at this point in the tech

was at church.

And so it's just

those elements

that make it

all that more immersive.

And then another level

to talk about

is people will say,

well,

what about the tactile

experience?

Like,

you know,

you can't hug people,

you can't,

you know,

shake hands.

But I just ordered

a haptic vest

and that's coming in,

you know,

hopefully before Christmas.

And so that haptic vest

I'm going to put on

is going to create,

like if somebody taps me

on the back,

you know,

I'll be able to,

oh,

someone's,

you know,

right next to me.

And so the technology

is evolving

quickly

and in a way

that's just something

that we can't even,

you know,

kind of,

you know,

measure.

And in the future,

2030,

can you imagine,

you know,

VR is going to be

a little pair of glasses.

You'll have a light

haptic suit on.

You'll shake people's hands

in VR

and you'll feel the feedback

in the haptic environment.

So,

yeah,

it's pretty wild.

Yeah,

there's a lot to say

about avatars.

You're just taking me

all the way

to Ready Player One

right there.

I remember a couple

of those scenes.

That's like,

that's one of my daughter's

favorite movies right there.

Okay.

Hey,

yeah,

I love this idea

of the,

you know,

the virtual reality.

As you said,

it's gotten much easier.

It comes down to the place.

I think the Oculus

instead of,

I think it's the Quest 2

is now the model

that's kind of out

this Christmas

that seems to be like

that was it like

the $199

the hot Christmas gift

to really get into

the entry-level

virtual reality?

Yes,

yes.

I think it's $299

and if people ask

what,

there's many different

headsets being developed.

I mean,

some like these 8K resolution,

you know,

wide,

you know,

field of view.

But fundamentally,

I think there's two leaders

and that's Oculus

and Valve.

And so,

generally speaking

for most people,

I would say,

Oculus Quest 2

that just came out

is the one to get.

It is fantastic.

It is untethered,

which means you don't need

a phone or a computer

to connect to.

You can just use it

wirelessly.

Or you can connect

it to your PC

if you wanted to

for more higher-end

VR experiences.

So,

it's a multi-purpose unit.

It is fantastic.

Rave reviews.

People that were,

like one of my elders

was real reluctant

about it

and then he got it

and he was like,

I was totally wrong.

This thing is amazing.

So,

Oculus Quest 2

for hardcore users,

man,

because there's people

out there

that are like,

man,

I'm a technologist.

I want the best.

I want the most powerful.

And that would be

the Valve Index.

And so,

that was a little more pricier,

I think at $1,000

for the Valve Index.

And you need

a really good computer

to run it.

So,

you have to do

a little system check

on that

to make sure

you can handle VR.

But yeah,

for the Valve Index,

that's another level.

And that's like

full control

of your fingers.

Like,

I'll see people

moving their fingers

in virtual reality.

I was like,

oh,

they have a Valve Index.

And so,

full body motion

as well

is compatible

with the Valve Index.

So,

for me,

I use the Oculus.

So,

generally speaking,

my avatar,

I have head rotation

up and down,

six degrees of freedom.

My hands have

six degrees of freedom.

So,

there is like

a torso,

head,

arm interactions.

But the Valve,

and if you get the,

I forget what they're called,

some like motion points

or something like that.

But you connect them

to different parts

of your body.

And when you see

those people,

you know immediately

their full body

because they're just

so fluid.

Like,

every part of their

leg moves,

their knee bends,

that's what their avatar

does as well.

So,

yeah,

I mean,

we're talking about

like some

groundbreaking technology

that's pretty wild.

And so,

like,

through VR Church,

you're planting

five

churches

essentially

at this point,

it's,

it's,

you know,

I know through

all VR,

you've got one

like in the Americas,

I believe Europe,

I think Asia Pacific,

just like

time slipping,

time zones

to make it

more appropriate

for those areas.

And you're in

Rec Room,

which I think

gets you into

PlayStation VR,

if I'm familiar right.

Like,

what are the different

platforms that you're on?

Yeah,

so,

AltSpace VR

that's owned by

Microsoft,

and they're accessed

by most headsets.

There's VR Chat,

which is,

which is like

Ready Player One.

I mean,

Ready Player One

is here in VR Chat,

but it's still

like the Wild West.

I usually don't,

I usually,

when people want to come

for the first time,

I tell them to go to

AltSpace,

because VR Chat

is definitely

the Wild West of VR.

It's an amazing place,

but just wild.

And then there's Rec Room,

and Rec Room

is interesting.

I think that's the dark horse

of this internet

or this metaverse race.

So,

you think of like,

you know,

the browser wars,

you know,

back in the day,

and was it Netscape

and Google

or Chrome

and,

you know,

all these,

Netscape,

you know,

back in the day.

Yeah,

and then social media,

like,

you know,

Facebook,

Snapchat,

and so there is

this metaverse race.

I don't know

if it's,

anyone's coined

that phrase,

but it's just

my observation

where you have

AltSpace

by Microsoft,

you have VR Chat,

you have Rec Room,

and then Facebook

has their own

called Horizons,

so people might not

even know about

Facebook Horizons,

that's in beta,

that hasn't been

released yet.

So,

you have these

different social media,

for lack of a better word,

social media,

virtual reality platforms,

and so those are the ones

that we are across.

Rec Room

is very interesting

because it's the most

accessible,

like,

it's on the Xbox,

PlayStation,

the Quest,

the VR,

and you can do,

it really is an

incredible platform.

We've been keeping

an eye on that

for sure.

So,

these are the terms

that sound

a little bit

enigma at first,

but in the future,

it's going to be

like Google

or Facebook.

It's just going to be

terms you know,

even though right now

you're like,

AltSpace what?

But later on in the future,

you know,

we'll be using those words

quite a bit.

That's exciting.

And so,

you're planting a church,

I mean,

just like you would,

like a church

in New York City,

you're planting a church

in Rec Room,

and there's

independent teaching,

video teaching,

like what,

and you mentioned earlier

like the world buildings

and stuff like that.

So,

like tell me a little bit

about what an experience

would look like

in virtual reality.

Yeah,

so we started out

like the very early on,

like 2016,

trying video teaching out

just because,

you know,

I was just transitioning

and didn't necessarily

have time to prepare sermons

and so we tried

video teaching.

But it really,

I mean,

you don't go into

the metaverse,

you don't go into

virtual reality

to watch a video.

You go in there

to experience things.

So we quickly

transition into live teaching

and then eventually

world building

where we're creating

these elements of scripture

for people to experience.

Like imagine walking

through the Red Sea

and then we'll recreate that

and walk through it

as a church.

In one sense,

it's almost like a tour

or a ride,

amusement park ride

in one sense

where we don't just sit

in the building,

we're actually out there

moving about

and experiencing things.

And so,

there's elements

that are familiar.

Like if you come

to VR Church this Sunday,

you'll spawn in,

you'll see,

on the front door,

you'll see the building there,

you'll hear music,

you'll see people

milling about.

If you come in,

you know,

there's a countdown going

and then after that,

there's, you know,

announcements,

vision casting,

worship music,

and then we do a sermon.

So, there's definitely

familiar elements.

But where it becomes

unique is when that sermon

starts to kick in

and we leave the building

and we start to go

to these movie sets,

if you will,

to experience VR Church.

And so,

that's where VR shines

because VR represents

the new era

that we're coming into,

which means

the information age

is coming to a close,

but the experience age

is about to begin

and the experience age

is that of VR,

AR,

mixed reality,

and all those things.

And so,

VR Church

reflects

the experience age

where church

is experiential

and tactile.

That's what churches

are going to move into.

And so,

maybe your stage design team

is going to evolve into

by 2030,

let's say,

you know,

who knows what year,

but just for sake of argument,

2030 into a world building team.

They're going to be designing

not just props on stage,

like worlds.

You're going to be building worlds

with your mind,

kind of like in inception

with Leonardo DiCaprio

and Ellen Page

where they're just building.

And so,

in the same way,

church is going to evolve

into that

and church is going to shift,

hopefully,

you know,

I know churches,

we struggle,

you know,

getting into new technologies,

but they're going to shift

into that experience age

and the services

are going to reflect that.

So,

like,

so for you,

is your,

the experience,

maybe even what you're doing

for like Christmas 2020 here,

like,

are you going

overkill

on like red balls

and green balls

and Christmas trees

and ornaments

or are you like

recreating

the Bethlehem

with the star?

Like,

what,

what's the level

of imagination

are you guys bringing

at least today

in 2020

when it comes

to these world buildings?

Yeah,

I mean,

certainly decorations,

but yeah,

fundamentally,

that's where we're going

is recreating Bethlehem.

So,

you know,

I was just working

on the design

a couple weeks ago.

So,

I just write down some notes.

I read the scripture.

I write down some notes.

Usually,

we try to build out

a month ahead.

And so,

I think they're building

even tonight

for Christmas.

And it'll take anywhere

from,

I mean,

four to eight hours.

Just depends.

Our world building

works really quickly

and a lot of great tools

in these metaverses.

So,

I'll jot down some notes.

So,

I said,

all right,

Luke 2 looks like,

you know,

there's a decree.

So,

let's have a building,

like a sign

that says,

you know,

and then I said,

okay,

Mary and Joseph

are on a journey.

Let's create that road.

Let's get a cart,

a donkey,

you know,

all that stuff.

Let's go,

let's get the end.

Let's do,

it says no entry.

And so,

we're creating that tour,

that experience,

or that ride

all the way through

to these epic moments

where we have the angels

in the shepherd's field,

you know,

singing,

you know,

glory to God

in the highest.

And then we have,

certainly we have the manger.

We're going to be able

to walk in the manger

and hang out with,

you know,

the animals

and the

and the nativity scene.

And so,

all that is experienced.

We'll read the scriptures,

we'll experience it.

A lot of what we do

is try to cast,

imagine you're there

because here you are.

We're walking

into Bethlehem right now.

And so,

that's like alt space

or the rec room build team

has their own,

they're going to do

their own thing

and it's going to be

very similar.

They have a lot of unique tools

where they can do

some really epic things.

VR chat,

the one that's like

ready player one,

we'll be doing

some more character oriented

because each of these churches

are very different.

And the VR chat one,

we are going to find characters

like the Mary and Joseph

and the angels

with like wings.

So,

this is more than just like,

you know,

maybe you've gone to

Christmas Cantata

or whatever they call it

where,

you know,

there's an angel costume.

I mean,

this is like,

you know,

like a 10 foot angel

in a VR

with animated wings

and lighting effects.

And so,

yeah,

there's so much

you can do in VR.

The,

you know,

the sky is the limit.

I mean,

you can just,

there's just so much

to think and do

and we just have

a really creative team

and they do an amazing job.

So,

yeah,

we're looking forward

to Christmas.

I think it'll be

a big event.

I think for physical churches,

their biggest Sunday

is Christmas,

but ours tends to be,

even though we'll do

a big Christmas for sure,

ours tends to be

the week after

and,

or the couple weeks after

because everyone

unboxes their VR

and gets it charged up,

discovers VR church

and then,

so we've noticed

the past couple years

that,

you know,

Christmas is good

and good attendance

and then the next couple weeks

are just like,

boom,

there's like a ton of people there.

So,

that'll be fun again to see,

especially with the

Miraculous Quest 2 out.

Yeah,

everybody's,

everybody's breaking out

their new toys.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

How do they,

how do they find you?

They just like,

is like,

how do they,

VRChurch.org,

like how do these people

with these new headsets,

oh,

hey,

look,

here's VR Church.

A couple of different ways.

I mean,

we've had a unique story

that's unusual

just because we've

received a lot of press.

So,

a lot of people

have heard about us,

you know,

maybe through Wired Magazine

or through BBC

or the Today Show

and so,

it's in the back

of their mind

that there is a VR Church

and once they get VR,

they've come.

So,

that's definitely an avenue.

We've had a couple

of collaborations

with some YouTubers

about VR Church

that have reached

like a million

and a half views

or over a million views

and so,

a lot of people

discover us that way

and once they get VR

but,

and then real quick asterisk,

all these platforms

have a 2D mode.

So,

I think people think,

you know,

they can't come to VR Church

unless they get VR

but no,

you can come in

as a download client

on Steam.

If you have Steam,

you just download

Altspace,

VR Chat,

Rec Room

and you can come to VR Church.

You'll be in 2D mode.

It's a different experience

but still very interactive,

still very interesting

and so,

yeah,

they'll discover us,

you know,

through YouTube,

through,

some news articles.

If they discover Altspace,

we're on the calendar

of events

so they'll go

and they'll see,

oh,

there's a VR Church

here on Sunday

and so,

you know,

they'll discover us that way

so there's multiple

different avenues

where people discover us

and it's funny to see,

I mean,

we've been around

technically since 2016

here in 2020

when people discover

like there's a VR Church

that like blows their mind.

You know,

what?

There's a VR Church?

I was like,

yeah,

yeah,

come visit,

you know,

you'll have a good time.

That's crazy

and there's even,

I know personally,

I'm working with a couple

churches that are

wanting to start

a VR campus.

I mean,

they're really wanting

to create

another expression of that.

We recently did a podcast

with Jason Poling.

I know another mutual friend

who's with,

was it Cornerstone Church,

I think,

up in the Pacific Northwest?

I think.

Yeah,

Pastor JPO,

yeah.

and so he's doing,

I'm not in with him

like you evidently,

I don't know,

the JPO thing.

That's what I'm going to tell him.

But yeah,

and so like they're doing

virtual reality,

live services

in physical buildings,

but then also creating

a completely separate

virtual reality experience.

And so like even JPO

evidently has been telling me,

hey,

he's like,

yeah,

I'll preach the service

live in the building

Sunday morning

and then he'll preach

live in virtual reality

Sunday night

and just creating

that completely separate

experience for that.

Let me throw a curveball at you.

I just want one to see.

What are the challenges?

Because I know

you've got a background

of physical.

You were a lead pastor

as I recall, right?

And I know you've done

a lot of video work.

You were a campus pastor,

that's right.

So you're a campus pastor.

Obviously you understand

the mega church,

multi-site model,

the physical church environment.

What challenges

is somebody going to have

that if they're going

from like a physical ministry

to wanting to create

like what JPO did,

creating a separate

virtual reality,

call it a campus.

What challenges

or issues are going to face?

What do they need

to think about

heading into that?

What do they need

to think about?

Yeah, that's a great question.

I think that

they're going to

maybe,

it depends how open

and closed they are.

Like if they make it

really limited,

like only our church members,

which might not be

a bad idea to start

because we're used

to and accustomed

to dealing with trolls,

disruptions.

It's actually,

we don't even think about it.

So there is an element

if you're just getting into it,

you're opening up

your service to,

you know,

everybody,

which, you know,

people in their chat,

you've seen trolls

come in into an internet chat,

you know,

church chat room

and do whatever they do.

And so you're going to see

that in VR as well.

And so I think

just getting prepared

for that mentally,

I don't know

that it's a hurdle

or a challenge.

It's just being prepared.

And there's a lot

of great moderation tools

to deal with that,

to mute,

to block.

And they've been increasing

those tools even more

and more.

So particularly

our alt-based service,

I mean,

it's very moderated,

we can control it

very, very well.

VR chat still has

some work to do.

Anybody from VR chat

is watching.

I love your platform,

but it is,

man,

you got some broken tools there.

Rec room is great too

as well.

And everyone in VR chat

knows that.

It's kind of like

everyone knows

this is glitchy

and has some issues.

But I think

that's one of the main

things I think

and it just is

the next step

for church online

in my brain.

If you have a church online

experience right now,

a virtual reality

campus is a no-brainer.

And that's something

that could be started

immediately.

I mean,

I'm sure maybe you want

to build a team around it

or cast some vision,

but it doesn't need

to be five years from now.

You can get

a small VR team going,

you know,

headsets are only $2.99

and it just makes

complete sense

to take your experience

from a 2D chat interface

into a face-to-face

interaction.

And so,

I'm actually kind of surprised

that we haven't seen

more of that.

JPO is the leader

in the hybrid model

and he's been doing,

they do a phenomenal job,

but man,

I would love to see

some other churches

get involved

in virtual reality,

the campus,

small groups.

I mean,

you name it,

something.

I think it's inevitable.

I think the technology

is inevitable

and hopefully they do.

Hopefully,

I know,

and I'm not talking

about everybody,

but just generically speaking,

the church goes kicking

and screaming

into new technology

and the website,

you know,

internet's evil,

let's not do a website,

oh, social media's evil,

let's not do,

and you know,

we just keep going

down this line

and unfortunately,

that attitude

has really left us,

and again,

I'm speaking generally,

unprepared for COVID,

you know,

there's a scrambling

and this desperation

that's happening

that didn't need

to happen at all.

And so,

in the same way,

I think as we look

into the future

of next generation technologies,

okay,

sure,

it might be years out,

but start experimenting

with it,

start getting some headsets,

get a little crew going,

I mean,

you don't have to announce

or launch anything,

you can just start experimenting

and I think that's key

so that when the time comes,

you're not starting

the conversation,

you've already had it,

you've already experienced it

and you're ready to start,

you know,

integrating it

and so,

I think it's really important.

Yeah,

I mean,

we'll put a link

to the JPO episode

in the show notes,

phenomenal conversation.

I joke with him,

he couldn't spell VR

and seven months later,

he had a VR campus.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's just,

it was seven months,

hey,

this is interesting,

let me dig into it

and some volunteers

were interested

and I think he said

he spent $5,000,

$8,000,

it was under 10

but to create this,

this,

you know,

opportunity to connect

with people,

phenomenal story

and it's like,

he's a 300 person

small church,

like it's not like

it's a multi giga,

this is just a man,

he was like,

hey,

this is a passion,

go for it.

He almost had an easier time

I think than some of the,

some of the larger churches.

Let me bring up a quick point

if you don't mind

and that's,

that speaks to

technological leadership.

That's what,

when we're looking

into these next gen

and man,

man,

maybe not even next gen,

maybe this current

social media live streaming,

maybe just start there.

We need to be looking

for the technological leaders

in our church

and that doesn't necessarily

mean IT.

Just because someone can do,

you know,

set up a server,

amazing and run a network,

does it mean they have

technological vision?

They might,

but I've interacted

with a lot of great IT guys

that don't have that vision

for next generation technologies.

They're great at implementation.

And so,

the reason I say that

is that I don't know

that you would,

you know,

take a quick glance

and see,

don't just say,

all right,

give it to the IT.

You know what I mean?

That may or may not be a thing,

but look for technological leadership.

I think that's their distinction.

And again,

it could be the same,

but,

and so look for that leadership

in it and empower them.

And so I've had,

we have people come to our church

that,

you know,

they've gone to their pastor

and,

you know,

the pastor says,

you know,

how can you help us out here

at our church?

And they're like,

well,

I can do 3D modeling

and I can do this,

I can do that.

And the pastor's like,

oh,

we don't got any of that,

right?

And so you have the people

in the church

with the vision

and the technology

and we just,

you just need the leadership

for it.

And so what surprises people

is that I'm not really

very technical

to the degree of,

I don't know,

Unity or Blender

or all these,

or Maya.

I have other people

do that for me,

but what I do shine in

is in technological leadership,

you know,

passion for the tech,

the capacity

to lead people forward.

And so I think that's,

I think that's powerful.

So it's in the churches,

you know,

so when you think

of current technology

and next generation technology,

it's there, man.

You just got to find it

and encourage it,

empower it.

So if a church was one,

I was totally not even thinking

we were going to have

this conversation,

but it's fun.

Let's just keep

following the rabbit trail.

If a church is one

to start a,

a campus,

I mean,

obviously the world building,

the technology,

get the,

get the headset,

understand the,

you know,

the culture of the people.

There,

there's,

there's challenges.

There's things

we're going to have to overcome

because once again,

it's not recreating

what's done physically,

digitally.

It's re-imagining

the ecclesiology

and doing it,

doing it within virtual reality.

So what are some steps?

What are some challenges?

What are some of the differences

between the physical

and the more,

more practical?

Yeah,

technological,

definitely differences,

but,

but more practical.

How's that,

how's that pastor going to preach

in virtual reality?

What,

what are those small groups

look like?

How,

how do you create community

with,

you know,

virtual reality

where you can't hug people

and they can't afford

the haptic suit?

like,

let's make some practical insight here.

Yeah,

that's some,

that's some good questions.

My,

my,

my brain's running through

a couple of different,

different things.

And so one of the things I think,

and this is not necessarily

a bad thing,

but when you think

about virtual reality,

you're looking for individuals

that are going to dive

into the tech.

So I know some physical church pastors

that are amazing pastors,

kill it,

do an amazing job.

They would be horrible

digital virtual reality pastors.

They couldn't manage

like the tech or whatever.

And so what I think,

the reason I say that,

maybe I'm getting off,

off on your question here,

is just a kind of a thought

I wanted to go on,

is that there are people

that are,

that could be amazing

digital virtual reality pastors

that might not be

good physical pastors.

So it's just kind of

viewing things

through a different lens

to see who those people are.

So to not just look at them

and go,

oh,

they,

they wouldn't be able

to lead a church

of a thousand.

Well,

no,

no,

no,

but they could lead

a thousand digitally,

hands down,

easy.

And so I think

that's an important part,

you know,

just to mention as well.

But,

I think I got off track

on your question.

What was the core

of what you're asking again?

Just what are some,

by the way,

I love that.

Let me back up

to your offshoot.

I have thought,

it's one of the things

with Stadium

where we're evaluating

digital only church planting,

like planters

that want to plant digitally,

a lot of that assessment.

I think in the experiments

so far have showed

that the assessing

for a physical campus pastor

is completely different

than assessing

a digital campus pastor.

or a digital pastor,

physical pastor,

digital pastor,

lead pastor role.

Because the,

the comfortability,

the,

the communication styles,

you're not standing

in front of a stage

speaking in front of thousands.

You're building relationships

with individuals

and it's more,

more stronger

on the disciple making piece.

And I would imagine

that's even amplified

even more so

that you need

to be more relational

in virtual reality

because you're overcoming

that coldness

of the technology.

You really can't be distant

in virtual reality.

You have to lean in

into those relationships

and into those people.

Virtual reality