EP109: Multiplying Churches Until There’s No Place Left

Episode 109 of the Church Digital Podcast, powered by Stadia Church Planning.

Can you believe this is the last podcast of 2020?

We did 66 the Church Digital Podcast.

Many more beta shows, many more other streams, but 66 episodes of the Church Digital.

As we helped churches move towards online, even in this COVID season,

massive steps were taken by churches in those early March, April, May days.

And it's exciting to see the church where we are today in ministry.

But the challenge of 2020 was to get churches to recognize digital.

The challenge, and they did in many parts, 60, 70% of churches are now doing something digital

in context of online services.

2021, I think the challenge is, and mark my words, this is going to be the theme of the

Church Digital in 2021.

It's not the services, it's disciple-making, it's empowering, it's digital discipleship,

it's online engagement pathways, and what it looks like, what that discipleship process is

to make that disciple-maker at the end.

This, this is the lesson of 2021, and I'm looking forward to taking some of those steps

with you, listening audience out there, and collectively learning of what other churches

are doing and how we can be effective in this new culture that COVID has entered us into.

Okay, so here's where we are with today's episode.

We brought some guys together from No Place Left.

Now, No Place Left is a, is an organic organization that really believes kind of in an organic church.

They, you know, these are the guys that are, they're training individuals to go be the church

out in the community.

Like, I've done church services under palm trees.

I've, I've gone walking around malls and sharing faith and praying for people.

It's, it's much more not, not come and see, not going to the building, but it's, it's, it's

organic, meaning it's out there.

It is literally in the, in the communities.

Now, it's a physical type of ministry.

They're, they're kind of wrestling with the digital stuff as, as long as well as the rest

of us, really.

But some of the lessons, some of their definitions, some of their biblical ecclesiology of how they

define church.

Well, it's, it's, it's, it's incredible.

Really, really, really solid stuff.

And so while we're having these conversations, trying to figure out what church is in 2020

and maybe how we need to not adjust the biblical mandate of church, but reinterpret our, our

opinions of what church is to something that works better in this ecclesiology, in this current

culture or state that we're in.

Well, I thought this would be a great conversation to have.

So here's what we're doing.

We're bringing in myself, Jeff, with the Church Digital and Stadia Church Planning, along with

some of the guys from No Place Left in a conversation that, that I'm, I'm simply calling, taking the

gospel out until there's no place left.

Okay, everybody, here you go.

Tell me about like doing this, this church everywhere.

Like, let's just set, set the foundation in the physical realm.

So, so just talk physically, we'll get to the digital later.

What is No Place Left?

How does it integrate in with doing this idea of church everywhere?

You know, I know that it's very strong in the priesthood of believers.

So maybe explain some of that ideology up front of what No Place Left is doing to help church

be everywhere.

You know, it reminds me, Francis Chan at one point talked about Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons and saying,

there's no way you read from Genesis to Revelation and get to the end and be like, that's it.

Satan was Jesus' brother.

Or, or Jesus was the Archangel Gabriel, you know, and I got to believe the same way about church.

You know, with a person with no preconceptions of what church is, no one would just pick up the New Testament,

read Matthew, Mark, John, Acts, the epistles, all the way through Revelation,

and come to the model that we see pervasive among the Western context today.

No, when we look at a basic ecclesiology from the scriptures, we see that it operates more like a family

than an organization or a corporation.

And I think of it in my own life.

You know, I've got grandparents who invest in me through parents who,

I work for my parents for a living.

I'm a co-vocational church planner.

So I'm a travel agent and event planner, and I work for my parents' businesses.

I do that.

But they're not only investing in me financially, but also spiritually.

We gather as a church in my parents' house on Thursday nights.

And I, myself, I'm married and I have two daughters, and I'm investing in my daughters.

And, you know, when I look at, you know, the crazy pastor who,

on the day that I was supposed to marry my bride, got up.

I have no experience of being a husband.

I have no responsibility or confidence, confidence.

I do have commitment, though.

I'm going to commit to be the husband of my now wife.

And on that day, he said, you are now Mr. and Mrs. Carter Cox.

And that came with all the rights, privileges, and responsibilities of being a brand new family,

even though I had no previous experience at that.

Why is it, you know, that this is the model of family from Genesis to Revelation,

from Adam and Eve in the garden, be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth?

We see this same model throughout the Gospels, Acts, and Epistles that churches operate like a family.

But for some reason, we have put in all these structures and systems

that prevent releasing that responsibility to the next generation to become church, become a new family, you know.

So, you know, we talk a lot about the two-church vision, you know.

We're, in a way, in a church or in a family being poured into,

and we're out trying to start a family or start a church that we're investing in.

And I see that very similarly generationally from third to fourth generation in a biological family

that I'm invested in through my grandparents and parents.

And I'm also investing in my wife and my children.

And we're never really separate.

Yeah, we gather at different times, but we're still the Cox family, generationally speaking.

And so I can't figure out, I can't quite figure out why that we can't embrace that same model

with the same authority and responsibility in the church as we've embraced in the family.

And some people will say, oh, well, these are different times, you know.

The message stays the same, but the methods change.

Well, we've still embraced the method of Adam and Eve in the garden, right?

Of husband and wife and bearing kids.

We haven't changed that method much.

That stayed the same.

But for some reason, we've come so far away from what I think we would see as church in the New Testament,

which is more like a family, and we've turned it more into a corporation, an organization,

something that needs a 501c3 attached to it, where money can flow in and out with certain tax exemptions.

And I just wonder what would happen if that went away.

You know, what would church be?

Would it look more like family?

I've got to believe that it would.

So, I guess that, you know, to summarize, I think when we look at a biblical ecclesiology,

it looks a lot more like family than it does like a corporation.

Well, hey, I mean, Lynn, let's even just start there, right?

So, I mean, you're using words like childlike faith in a simple pathway.

And I know through No Place Left, let's talk a little about this.

If you've got the church circle, Acts 2, 36 through 47, the 9, 10, 11, it's 11, right?

The 11 items that are listed there that are part of the church.

On video, he's shaking his head yes or no.

I don't know, maybe we'll get an answer out of them.

But we'll include the link in the show notes.

You can download it and pull it off of there.

But, you know, it's a very simple model, just even pulling off the Acts 2 scripture, of what a church is.

And so, talk to me a little bit about how you're utilizing the church circle,

how you're enabling others to be the church out and about,

and kind of what No Place Left, how you guys are doing this in the real world today from a practical standpoint.

Do you mind if I just share my screen real briefly?

Yeah, go for it.

We'll include a link in the show notes as well for this, so those guys listen on audio.

But share it. Let's see it.

All right, great.

And I'll be sure and be descriptive in the audio.

This is one of the websites we use to give people at least the content in some simple Google slideshows

on how to understand these tools for being a disciple, making disciples, being a church, planting churches.

And you just mentioned the church circle.

And like you said, there's some versions of nine, some versions of 12.

And I'll model the version that has 12 for you right here.

But just, you ask, you know, what does that look like?

For me, whenever I see someone become a believer or they're interested to be discipled,

this is normally the first thing I will take them through just to kind of cast a big vision for where we're going.

And it starts normally with just telling the story.

So I'll tell them to draw a circle on their paper, draw three lines down and two across.

And I'll say, you know, in Acts 2, the Holy Spirit came upon the believers just as Jesus promised.

And Peter proclaimed that this Jesus, in verse 36, whom you crucified, God has made both Lord and Christ.

So he proclaimed the gospel to them.

And it says that the people were cut to the heart.

And they said, what should we do?

And he says, you need to repent of your sin.

You need to be baptized.

And you too, not only receive forgiveness of sin, but you receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And he said, this isn't just for you, but it's also for your children and everyone who is far off.

And he continued just saying, come on, guys, repent, believe, be baptized.

Repent, believe, be baptized.

And it says 3,000 people that day who had heard the gospel, repented of their sin, believed in Jesus, and received the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And it says that 3,000 began devoting themselves to the apostles' teachings, so the word of God, to the breaking of, or to the fellowship.

So they're loving one another just as Jesus commanded, to the breaking of bread and to the prayers.

And it said that they were in awe of what God was doing.

He was doing many wonders and signs through the apostles.

It said that they were being radically generous through selling possessions and giving to any who had need.

They were meeting together, not only in the temple courts, but also in house to house, worshiping God, eating together, having favor with the community.

And it said that the Lord was adding to their number day by day, those who were being saved.

And so when I look at all of these things, Jeff, I don't see anything different than what Jesus commanded, right?

I mean, even going back to the top left section here where we illustrate the gospel, Jesus comes onto the scene in Mark 1 saying, repent and believe in the gospel.

We see, obviously, repentance all throughout, but Jesus saying that that's how we bear fruit, is bear fruit in keeping with repentance.

In John chapter 3, we see Jesus right after the conversation with Nicodemus baptizing disciples.

John 3 · chapter mention

But then in John chapter 4, right before the woman at the well store, we see Jesus releasing that to his disciples saying, baptize them.

John 4 · chapter mention

And then obviously, Matthew 28, 19, Jesus saying, baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Jesus, obviously, all throughout John 14, John 16, Luke 12 talks about the Holy Spirit.

The importance of the Holy Spirit is our empowerment for being his witness.

He's our teacher into all truth.

He's our advocate.

He's our comforter.

Obviously, the disciples received that, and every believer since then by faith when they became a believer.

And so we look at that top tier of those four characteristics, the gospel, repentance, baptism, our identification with Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

And we say, this is our identity as a believer.

You know, I, Carter Cox, identify as a believer because I believe the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

I've repented of my sin.

I've identified with Christ, death, burial, and resurrection through the waters of baptism.

But also daily, I walk and am filled with the power and the presence of the Holy Spirit.

And so we see that kind of that top row as our identity.

The middle row we see is like our daily disciplines.

So daily, I want to be committed to the word of God.

Jesus said, man doesn't live by bread alone, but every word from the mouth of God.

So I'm committing myself to listen and respond to God's word.

Jesus said, they will know you are my disciples by the way that you love one another.

So I'm committing daily, not only to love believers around me, but love the lost.

Jesus didn't say, if you break bread, do it in remembrance of me.

He said, when you break bread, anytime you do this, do it in remembrance of me.

Take the cup, which is representative of his blood.

Do this in remembrance of me.

He just didn't say when you pray, or if you pray, but when you pray.

You know, pray like this.

You know, Heavenly Father, hallowed be your name.

Your kingdom come.

So all these disciplines of being devoted to the word of God, loving one another, breaking bread, and praying are just daily rhythms.

Acts 2 42 rhythms of both a disciple individually, and I believe a family of believers of the church.

And then that third row down there, those four icons, we call the outflow.

So a life that is identified with Jesus and living under the disciplines of Jesus will outflow the same works of Jesus.

And Jesus says that right in John 14.

He says, anyone who believes in me, not only will he do the same works that I am doing, but even greater works than these.

In John, or 1 John 2, I think it's 6, he says, anyone who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way as Jesus walks.

1 Corinthians 11.1, Paul says, imitate me as I am imitating Christ.

And so when we look at the outflow of our lives, it looks a lot like Jesus, right?

A lot of people say, oh, I'm filled with the Spirit.

I'm Spirit-led.

I'm Holy Spirit-led, this and that.

I'm like, who is the most Holy Spirit-filled and led person on the planet?

Well, the Son of God.

So is our life looking more like Jesus each day?

And we see that in that third row.

You know, Jesus does the miraculous to us.

You know, every time someone repents and believes in the gospel, that's a miraculous act of God.

You know, I should be deaf in both ears, but as an infant, my parents laid hands on me and prayed and fasted all night.

I had a double-ear infection at about five days old, and I went back to the hospital the next day, and I could hear perfectly.

That's miraculous.

You know, that kind of blew up my parents' little Southern Baptist box.

I actually attempted to commit suicide back in 2009 when I was very far from God, and I woke up in the hospital.

The doctor told me I'm dead.

So these things Jesus does, whether it's salvation or a miraculous sign and wonder, we see these things God does in our life that we can't explain.

And as we walk in him, you know, I believe we will begin to taste and see that he is good in those ways.

The next one, generosity.

You know, Jesus said, give to those who ask, you know, even your enemies.

And so, again, we see that in Acts 2.

They're just obeying the command of Christ, selling their property and possessions, giving to those who are in need.

Think of the woman at the well when Jesus talks about worshipers.

The Father is seeking and drawing those who will worship him in spirit and truth.

He says to Satan, worship the Lord your God and serve him only.

And then finally, you know, the little multiplication error.

Jesus is the one who said, as the Father sent me, so I send you.

You know, go and make disciples.

Be my witnesses from Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, to the end of the earth.

And so, you know, this is the outflow of a life of a believer.

You know, one who walks with the Lord and sees his works, one who is generous, one who is a worshiper, one who is a disciple maker.

And when I look at this church waffle, you know, I have two seminary degrees, but I could not have articulated what church is in a simple, biblical, reproducing way after both those seminary degrees.

It took me running into some missionaries from overseas who took me through Acts 2, 36, 247 and said, you know, is this church, you know, not only is it church, but is it obeying the commands of Christ as Jesus commanded us to teach in Matthew 28?

And I looked at it and I was like, that's it, that's right.

You know, and it, a lot of times we think that more knowledge, you know, equals depth.

But what I've come to understand with anything in life is it's not necessarily more knowledge, but it's more experience through practicing these things over and over again.

You know, it's like spiral learning.

You know, we continue to drill down these things.

And a lot of times as Western thinkers, we try to turn something into a curriculum that we conquer.

But the thing about the commands of Christ or these 12 practices, we'll never conquer them, right?

They conquer us and continue to conquer us day by day.

And so in a way, this is what I'll show people, Jeff, whenever I sit down with a new believer or a person who wants to be discipled.

And I say, why don't we learn what each one of these things is?

Why don't we have a simple story from the Gospels and Acts to explain to anybody what this is in real life?

And we'll continue to meet together, not only for 12 weeks, but as long as the Lord allows, continuing to drill down into each of these things.

And in a way, we kind of use this as our discovery Bible study tool, too, because after we ask the simple questions about a passage, you know, what does it say about God?

What does it say about people?

What's a sin to avoid, a promise to believe, example to follow or command to obey?

We'll ask the people in our gathering or one-on-one, where do you see church in this passage?

You know, where do you see the gospel or repentance?

Where do you see the Holy Spirit or the Word of God, the one and others?

Where do you see prayer or the miraculous?

Where do you see generosity or multiplication?

You know, we'll ask them, because I really believe if their hermeneutic is the commands of Christ and church from Acts 2, they'll be able to see that in everything Jesus did with his disciples.

They'll be able to see that through everything Paul was writing to the churches, the new churches throughout the epistles.

And hopefully, I really believe if this generation can know Acts 2, 36 through 47, Acts 2, 36 through 47, as good as the last generation knew John 3, 16, I think we'll start to see more churches planted.

But we're going to have to know and believe and be released into all the rights, privileges, and responsibilities of living that out in order to see that take place.

So, I'll shut up, but yeah.

No, I love that.

If the generation would learn Acts 2, as well as the previous learn John 3, 16, yeah, we would live in a different world.

It's an incredible challenge.

Hey, let me ask this.

By simplifying it, I love the fact that you were like, yeah, I've got the seminary degrees, I have the knowledge, but it wasn't until a couple of missionaries, you know, showed me the thing.

I had a similar experience myself the first time I sat down with Steve at a, actually, Ricky Bailey, as well as another guy.

But sat down with these guys that took out a three-by-five card and started drawing on it, and my mouth hit the table.

Tell me, when you simplify it, it scales, right?

Because now it's easier to process.

It's easier to reproduce.

Not that you're taking away from the Bible necessarily and the truth, but you're making so that it's easier to reproduce.

Maybe talk a little bit about that tension because the goal is you're trying to get people to teach this, to teach other people, to teach other people.

There's generations here in context with that, but it's not, is it the full, fully functioning?

Is it part?

Are we talking minimal ecclesiology here?

Like, what is that tension maybe that you're feeling as you're trying to help this movement reproduce, but maybe not at the full function of what people today, you know, I'm doing air quotes here for the audience, what the audience today expects?

Yeah, man, it's funny, especially in the whole church planning movement and disciple-making movement world, that there's like this constant battle from a lot of the seminaries and theology professors and people I look up to and different blogs, that they pit knowledge and obedience versus one another.

And, you know, I don't see that those things are mutually exclusive, you know, I think you need both.

But, you know, in any discipline in life, you always start with the foundation.

And I love the illustration of fishing, you know, when I first learned to fish, a guy put a pole in my hand.

I didn't know what kind of pole it was.

I didn't know what pound test was on the line.

I didn't know about a leader or braid.

I didn't know about, you know, a circle hook knot versus, you know, a slip knot versus all these different knots.

I didn't know the difference between the live bait or the lures.

He just put a pole in my hand and he said, here's the basic motion.

You know, I want you to pitch this live bait over by that dock and keep some tension on the line.

And so I did, you know, and eventually I caught a fish.

I caught my first snook there in South Florida with, it wasn't with Steve, but it was with another guy.

And Steve knows all what I'm talking about.

But eventually I began to learn the difference between, you know, a really, they would call a light rod or a medium rod or a heavy rod or, you know, a 1500 size reel or 2500 or a 5000 size reel.

And the different knots, the different pounds for the different sizes, the hooks, the different tides, the different moon phases.

I mean, there's a thousand different things to go into being a really good fisherman.

But at the end of the day, somebody had to put a pole in my hand and show me the basic motion of casting.

And, you know, not much has changed when I go fishing.

I still pick up a pole.

I still put a bait on or a lure.

I still cast.

I have a little bit more knowledge about what's going on.

But that same basic motion, whether my pole has become more expensive, which it has, or less expensive, or it, but that foundational bustle memory, the foundational knowledge of what it looks like to fish has not changed.

It's just grown through experience.

And I think a lot of times, you know, how we treat discipleship is we say, well, if you read all of these books about fishing, you know, and you can talk about the different moon phases and the tides and the different baits and the different, you know, seasonal runs of the different fish.

And if you can know all of that, then you're a good fisherman.

But Steve would tell you here, that's not the truth.

There's an experience factor.

There's a practicing of that knowledge every time.

You know, if I stop tying knots, I forget how to tie those knots.

You know, my knot from my leader to my braid, my knot from my leader to my hook, and the different types of knots.

If I stop tying those, if I didn't tie them hundreds of times, then, you know, I think that, you know, I wouldn't know how to do it regardless of how many books I read.

But I think with Christianity, we think the opposite.

We think however much information I can have about the scriptures equals the depth of my discipleship.

And, you know, when I look at that church waffle that I just showed you, I really look at the starting point as just putting a fishing pole in somebody's hands.

This is the basic of church.

You're going to learn and drill down in each one of these concepts, these commands of Christ for the rest of your life.

But here's the pole.

You know, cast it over by that dog.

See if you get a fish.

And so that's kind of, I guess, how I see it.

What's it like to give, I mean, my son's nine, and he's itching to fish.

I live in Miami.

I'm honest.

I'm too busy.

I haven't taken my son to fish.

Like, you can send me the hate mail, judge me.

That's awesome.

Feel free to.

But he, I'm serious.

He longs to fish.

I've even tried to, like, get him connected with my father, his grandfather, who likes fishing a little more than I do and trying to get him to.

But what's it like?

Like, is there fear when you're giving somebody an opportunity?

Obviously, let's get away from the fishing analogy.

Somebody who's new in the faith.

You know, that childlike faith that you mentioned.

Like, is there a point where they can do this?

They can't?

Is it too soon to give somebody an option to do this?

Like, just speak to me a little bit about that.

I would quote a friend of mine, T. Mark Green, that says, most people are educated above their obedience.

And what Mark has meant by that is we've made that shift that we think that if we give people enough information, they will become obedient instead of modeling and giving the practical experience of it.

So do most people mess up?

Well, I'll give you the first testimony of taking my son to go share the gospel.

And the first house, he walked up.

And Carter remembers this.

And Callaway walked with me and said, Dad, you're going to help, right?

And I'm like, yeah.

So do you want me to model it first?

So I modeled it completely for him in the first one.

And the person didn't accept Christ.

The second one, Callaway led and started the conversation.

And when he got to a point where he didn't feel comfortable, I chimed in and helped him out.

The third one, Callaway walks up, initiates the conversation, explains the gospel fully, and makes an invitation for that person to follow Jesus.

And they accept Christ right there, the same person that he'd shared with.

And it's on a walk that we were following Carter on.

And my son walked away with the expectation, oh, I'll just do this.

This is how you go share the gospel.

And it became natural.

And there are many times where he didn't do everything correctly, but out of obedience, he gained experience that informed better than just having the knowledge of, okay, this is how you do this.

And the funny thing is true when we talk about practical fishing.

By the experience of it, you gain a depth of knowledge that can't be replaced or explained.

You don't value it as much.

So I think that that component of accountability to practically being obedient to what God has called us to do and fanning the flames of that, which leads us back to that waffle for the church circle.

Is there anything in there that we would withhold from believers to say, hey, can they do this?

Will we allow a disciple to grow?

Start off being messy and not complete and probably not fully informed and experienced.

But have that grow and mature.

And could we all wrestle with it?

We need maturity in that.

Like Carter says, we don't master these things.

They master us.

So even in my world of learning to love one another, I may realize I don't love to the depth that I need to, that I'm selfish and there's things that I need to root out.

So I think there's a humility in that.

And that when we get back again to that simple faith, that childlike faith, can we allow things to be messy, but it's worth the experience to go through and to really depend on God through those moments.

That God can take our messiness.

He can take our few fish and loaves and feed many.

He can take our mistakes and our messiness and do great things, and we expect that from God.

Well, let's dive into the messiness a little bit, at least in context of, man, I'd love to hear some stories.

Because what you're literally describing is you're teaching, call them lay people, the average Joe, the biblical definition of the Bible and then of the church from Acts 2, and then you're releasing them out to go tell people to go be the church, to do the commands of Christ, to do the Bible circle, the 9, 11, 12, however many it is in the training.

To be that within their circle of influence.

From just a physical standpoint, what are some of these stories that you're seeing happen in this season?

I wouldn't promote this if it hadn't radically changed my own family's life.

And so, long story short for me, I grew up in the traditional church, a legacy church.

I had a grandfather who was on staff at a megachurch here in Oklahoma City.

And then he was a president of the International Mission Board.

And so, I grew up with this idea of legacy church and organization and denominations.

Oh, and I came back from Florida after spending time with Steve and Troy.

My wife and I, Hannah, we walked into my parents' home in 2017, January, and we said, hey, we're doing church.

Thursday night, we're doing church.

You're in and you're out.

And my parents were like, okay.

You know, and mind you, you know, they're both believers, but they've grown up in a very traditional model.

And I remember that first night, we took the Lord's Supper.

You know, we had juice.

We had bread.

We passed it around.

I thought my mom, my mom, my mom thought that a lightning bolt was going to come out of the ceiling and strike her dead.

You know, because that's how nervous she was, you know, to take the Lord's Supper out of like an organized church setting.

But over the last three years that the church has been meeting my parents' house, we have seen two of my brothers come into the kingdom.

Two of my brothers completely come off of drugs.

One was addicted to an amphetamine.

The other was addicted to pills.

Walked a brother through a divorce.

We've seen 20 plus people enter the kingdom through relationships of friends and family of my siblings.

My dad has embraced the simplicity of it so much and said, I can do this, that he started a church on Fridays at a paint manufacturing company that he owns here in the city.

And he gives the employees an hour and a half lunch on Fridays and they have the option to leave and go take an hour and have lunch somewhere else or go home.

Or they can be provided with lunch and they gather at his church and, you know, do a Bible study in the three thirds.

And my dad believes that this Thursday night, Fountains Family Church is the name of it.

And then Friday at lunch at his work, they call it his church or HIS church.

He believes it's church.

You know, it's not church JV or, you know, just a small group or a life group or missional community.

Because he sees and has been discipled or, I guess, modeled from us that all church is is obeying the commands of Christ and community.

And, you know, loving God, loving people, making disciples as community, as family.

That's what that's what church is.

And he believes that that it's now spread from not only my dad, but to a guy named Darren at my dad's work, who is a former guy's 20 years in the pen, is now taking it to three other prisons here in Oklahoma.

And it's multiplying cell churches, literally, you know, churches in cells throughout the state of Oklahoma in these maximum security prisons.

And when I look at that, I see life transformation in my life, my family's life.

We look forward to Thursday nights with our family in church because, you know, we're ready to hear from the Lord, hear from one another, leave encouraged to obey Jesus.

And it is messy, you know, like I said, you know, two brothers on drugs, one brother walked through a divorce, walking through siblings who are not able to have children.

And now they are pregnant, you know, like different aspects of what it looks like.

As messy as family is, is as messy as church should be, because church is family, right?

And if church isn't messy, I many times wonder if it really is church.

Because if our own biological family units that God has set us up in get pretty heated sometimes,

and then the bride or the family of Christ doesn't, it makes me wonder if we're actually communicating, you know,

if we're actually getting, being accountable to one another.

So, Steve, you have anything to add?

Or go for it.

No, I'm just curious before we go to Steve.

How many times did it take your mom to do communion there in the house before she was comfortable?

You know, last week she led it.

So, it was really awesome.

Yeah, I know.

You know, it took a few times.

Even what's crazy is my granddad, who is a megachurch pastor, and like I said,

one of the presidents of the International Mission Board, he now gathers with us in church on Thursday nights.

And he sees it just as much as church as anything else.

And it took some time.

But I think, you know, like you said, you know,

someone's scared to get behind the wheel of the car for the first time until they do it a few times.

And then you become comfortable.

And, you know, it doesn't take long.

It just takes consistency.

Steve, just any stories.

Give me, I could sit around and listen to an old man story from you all day long.

We were talking about that out there before the podcast started.

Come on, man.

Give me one story.

Old man story, Steve.

Old man story, Steve.

So, as far as the church being represented everywhere, we're not only supporting leaders that are having churches in homes,

but in their businesses.

Have you heard from Carter?

We have church.

I mean, sunny South Florida.

I mean, we're just blessed.

We can have church on the beach.

We've got church on the park.

And so, we have these gatherings of believers that call their community their family.

And they depend on them for accountability and love and care.

And that's even happening online.

And for Miami, that's been really key for us because it solves a problem of having to get across town in the evening.

And we can get online and really care for each other.

And one thing that's happening there, we use a model called three-thirds to orchestrate and structure our gatherings.

But during that time, there's loving accountability where we separate into individual groups.

And one-on-one, we care for one another.

We pray deeply for one another.

And so, there's such intimate moments there that I honestly don't think could be reproduced in a physical setting as well.

And even as we're sharing communion online and each taking the elements, there's a depth.

But one thing that shocked us, and I'll share this story.

When we first started, we started with a peer group of leaders who had experienced three-thirds before.

And when COVID started, we went online into Zoom.

It's continued for 16 weeks now.

And the first couple of weeks, we started, you know, talking about how we're going to give because it's a command to be generous.

And we talked about how generosity is demanded.

It's robbed of its joy.

So, we only want to give not out of compulsion, but out of joy.

And we went through the scriptures together for that.

And we started talking about needs.

And this was a time where there were some definite needs for people and needs within our own body.

And one of the first needs was a young man going to college.

And he shared with us, and I won't use his name because I love him.

He shared his need.

And he shared that he just, the college meal service was down and he wasn't able to go get food.

And he didn't have any way to go get that.

So, the church rallied together and made sure he had everything that he needed, so much that he was able to share on his dorm floor and feed some others.

That's awesome.

But it sparked a movement of generosity.

And I was impressed that that was the catalyst with which these leaders gathered together in a digital environment and called a church.

It was because they were given the opportunity to give and to meet each other's needs.

And that just didn't stop with one.

It stopped later on giving the boldness to go, hey, we've got this need.

We've got this need.

We know about this need.

So, we met the need of a young couple who were going through some financial hard times.

The church rallied around and met the full need.

This is a church that doesn't have the infrastructure to support, only just a digital platform,

who co-lead together as peers, as brothers and sisters in Christ, and treat each other in that way,

all taking responsibility for all of those elements which Carter had laid out.

This is our responsibility to help co-lead in this and to lead others to do this as well.

But really to obligate one another in love, to care for one another.

So, we've got testimony and testimony of God doing amazing things through that.

And even people having the opportunity where they thought, I could not do this.

I'm not an outspoken person.

They're given the opportunity to lead, and sometimes messy, but we learn from our mistakes.

Right.

As we do that, we become more confident, and we become more bold, and we get to see God affirm

that this is what we should be doing all along.

And that's one thing that I would want to emphasize.

There's a lot of things that you could get comfortable with doing that are negative.

And we want to fan the flames of leading people to be even more obedient and more open to be used

by God in a positive way and becoming comfortable with that.

Either way, you're going to experience some lack of comfort.

It's better to choose for yourself that pathway which is obedient.

I want to become more obedient because it's life-giving.

It's not that it's easy.

The storms still come.

But God gives us that reassurance by His Holy Spirit and by the community that this is what

we should be doing.

And so when people see lives change, and I'll give you a quick story.

This past week, one of the campus pastors had a training and trained his sister-in-law, and

she's not one that likes to pray out loud and, you know, wouldn't be really bold in sharing

with her faith.

She immediately went from that to praying boldly and then sharing her faith and leading another

family member to follow Christ.

Come on.

And after that, this person who's a, you know, he's a passionate believer in God.

He's a faithful follower.

He's doing the work.

But if you would see the zeal in him now, the family member that was far from God, that we all

love, that was on our relationship map, that we've all been praying for, God used the least

likely to show himself strong and good to do it.

And after that, like, you can't turn people away.

From being more obedient to God.

They've committed in their mind, I'm going to see this because God has given affirmation.

I'm going to do this work.

And that's where we start to really depend on him with that childlike faith.

God, you're going to do your work.

Your gospel is going to have an effect on people's hearts and minds, and it's going to lead them

to trust in you.

I just need to be obedient to share it.

I don't need to be eloquent in my speech.

I don't need to be handsome or compelling in that way.

I can just be sinful, faithful, hopeful, and loving towards someone else, knowing that

you are the truth and you bring life.

And as we do that, we gather together in a family with the same faith, that if we gather

together, you know, you'd ask pastors, you know, they'll quote that scripture for you,

where two or three are gathered.

He is with us.

Well, if he is with us, is this not the body of Christ?

Is this simply just not the body of Christ?

How would you exclude?

And I would also, just so that we're fair-minded, as we talk about the messiness of church,

you look at the epistles.

You know, these churches are not completely healthy.

There's things to be corrected in them.

And there's things that need to change.

And yet, God still calls them church.

Jesus still calls them church.

And Paul still calls them church, where he addresses them.

And they're given the opportunity to correct.

And so, I would encourage that as well, as we're having online experience and practical

experience in other areas of what can a church gathering be.

Making it more simple and just looking at the practicality, where could we become obedient

followers?

And what does the church characteristically have to have?

I think the simple rubric of Acts 2.36 helps.

You've mentioned, and Steve, even just in the conversation here, you've used the word loving

accountability, I don't know, maybe half a dozen times.

Is that the role of the church in this equation?

And maybe the term church, we're even like mixing it up.

But like, who is providing the loving accountability?

Is it a person to a person?

Is it the organizational church to the ones that they're discipling and unleashing?

Like, what does loving accountability look like?

Because accountability, to me, it always seems to be a thing that's missing from disciple-making

movements where we train, but there's really not that accountability piece to make sure that

it actually gets from our head to our heart to our hands.

We get it in here, but then the follow-through is not there.

So talk a little bit about what accountability looks like or what it should look like in the

church today.

Well, I think it's the basic DNA of discipleship, because if it doesn't come out of love, then

it lacks the substance that hearts are changed by.

Grace and mercy and love are what changes hearts.

That's what we experience from the Father.

And that's the power that he uses to change our hearts.

If you ask what church is, and most people will say it's a place of worship, it's a place

where I come.

And if you look at the alternatives in this world, there's people that can go get all of

those things which they say the church is.

A good organization with good leadership, with, you know, a rock and band, lasers, spokes

machine, and all of those things.

Not picking on those, but it is a certain amount of entertainment.

And so compared to entertainment of this world, the church would be hard-pressed to be more

entertaining.

But what we can capitalize on is the deep, loving relationship, an intimate, authentic relationship.

So you've got a world that's crying out to be authentic, where most people are hiding behind

moral, you know, moral mask, knowing that there's things in their lives that shouldn't be that way.

And there's a freedom with going to a brother and sister as a peer and allowing yourself to say,

hey, I know that this is a problem.

We need to address it.

And not being shamed, but loved and cared for.

But loved and cared for in a way like, I don't want this in your life any longer.

So having a community that you can be vulnerable in, that you don't have to present a falseness

in order to be accepted, that you can be genuine in who you are and to be accepted, that's where

the body of Christ is going to excel.

Because we all start off that we are all sinners saved by grace.

We are fickle beings who are easily turned.

We are in constant need of grace and mercy.

And if we create that community that's restorative, then I know others will flock to it because

in our nature, we're looking for that.

And it's what God has designed in us.

It's only what you find through the forgiveness of Christ.

And the love that you experience, you're reflecting back to others.

But it's asking the hard questions.

And part of that is being vetted out.

Are you being obedient to what you believe God has called you to do?

So if you believe God has called you to share the gospel and to make disciples,

and he explicitly asked us to do that, it is only going to be life-giving for you to act on that.

So now I want to know what can I do to help you?

Can I model it for you?

Can I assist it?

Can I watch you do it and then give you insight if I'm a little bit further along in the process?

And is there a moment that you legitimately need someone to say, you've got it.

Go.

Now teach somebody else to do it.

And knowing in the teaching of it and sharing of it that we actually learn more.

You have to teach somebody to fish.

You drill down on those elements.

So that loving accountability comes as a peer.

It comes as a surrender first to Christ and vulnerability there.

But then realizing that his body is the place where you do that.

And we encourage, there are moments where we have to encourage ladies be with ladies and guys be with guys.

Because there's issues that we deal with on a moral biblical standard that we have to do that.

But in general, we can hold each other accountable.

And I'm grateful for my sisters in Christ who do the same.

We call out, you should be a little bit more kind in that.

You need to be more gentle in your leading.

And I firmly, I need that.

If they're not there, then I'm prone to error.

And I need to listen to them.

So I don't know if that answers your question.

There's a lot more stories than that one.

No, I love it.

But accountability to me, as I look at what the church is today,

and everybody who's listening to this podcast is connected to the church in some way.

They're either on staffs or pastors or volunteers.

And so I don't want to defame the church.

But through the podcast, it's been, here's an opportunity to pivot.

Here's an opportunity to think about it differently.

Here's an opportunity for us to realize that maybe COVID was a gift.

And if we can take advantage of the lessons that we're learning in this season,

maybe there's an opportunity for us to make tomorrow better than what today is.

And the church in itself, I don't want to roll out all the stats.

Pre-COVID, things weren't going well.

And now as mid-COVID, we're trying to get back to the buildings,

thinking that's going to be the resurrection of the church.

We just have to get back to the building.

It really wasn't working right when COVID came.

So I don't know that that's going to be the solution to all of the problems.

There's something that we've been talking about.

I want to pitch this at you guys.

I don't know if it, we'll just see how this goes.

But the idea, it's called church as platform.

And it has actually nothing to do with technology, but it's like a technology platform.

But it's more based around this idea of, well, you know, let's take like Airbnb.

Airbnb does not own a hotel anywhere in the world.

They don't deal with that.

They don't own the property.

They don't have concierge service.

They don't have cleaning crews.

They don't pay any property taxes.

All they do is allow others to.

They provide resources.

They provide a platform.

And if my next door neighbor wants to rent out his spare bedroom and turn it into a thing,

he can do that through Airbnb, no problem.

What's been interesting as a result in this season, Airbnb currently makes more revenue than the top five hotel chains in the world combined.

Because they've crowdsourced the work.

Airbnb is not building luxury hotels.

Airbnb is not building, you know, Motel 6s.

No offense, Motel 6 people.

They're just built.

They're empowering others to do that.

And so this idea of church as platform for me, and I'm always the extreme guy, is what if the church actually stopped doing church services?

And instead of trying to create the mega production or the simple production, instead of gathering people in a building to do church,

we did things like this where we trained people to be the church and didn't actually preach sermons from a stage as much as God in people's lives and lived the church

and held that church circle standard out for others.

Now, in my world, I'm even crazy enough to be like and do it in digital as well as physical.

That may be another conversation.

We're running out of time.

But at least in this idea of reproducing church, getting out of the building and empowering people with the gospel, with the trainings, holding them accountable towards that.

What do ideas like this church as platform, what does this do for you?

Is that, that's awesome?

That's horrible.

What's the challenge?

What's the issue?

What am I not thinking of?

I definitely, about the Airbnb stat, believe that.

I'm in the travel industry and even myself, my wife and I, we're going on a vacation and we're not booking a hotel or booking an Airbnb.

Even though I could get a commission from a hotel, I can't from Airbnb, but I still book Airbnb because it's cheaper.

And I'm getting more bang for my buck.

But no, I love that, man.

I think that's how the Bride of Christ should operate.

I still, at the very bottom of my soul, when I look at what the problem is with the church, why it can't be a platform like that, is because there has to be some type of money in and money out, you know, through an organization.

And I'm not saying that organizations are bad or the 501c3s are bad or anything like that.

But if you create something like that, it has to sustain itself.

It has to.

And if we empower people, just like Steve said a second ago, even on the giving, my wife and I, we give 100% now through PayPal, Venmo, and Cash App.

Even we have support-raised missionaries that we give to on a regular basis.

And we could give through E3 Partners or Big Life or the IMB or EastWest or Beyond or GlobalGates or any of those.

But we've chosen to give via Cash App and Venmo because we're trying to model something that if, and I pray it doesn't happen, but if it should happen, that these organizations collapse in on themselves.

And there's no more nonprofits that are able to get a tax break because they're proclaiming a message that's against the culture.

Will people still be generous?

Will we still be able to fully fund missionaries?

Well, as for me and my house, I will.

I will give to these brothers who are called by God whether I get a tax break or not, you know, because I believe in them and they've had an impact in my life.

I think that's one small, you know, hurdle that believers are going to have to overcome if they really want to see church as a platform.

Do I have to only give to the building, the brand, the organization, or can I give open-handedly as I see a need?

You know, do I have to share the gospel by inviting my friend to an event and let my pastor, or can I do it as I'm going?

You know, do I have to take the Lord's Supper, you know, once a month in this building from this pastor facilitating it?

Or can I do it over a meal with my family and my friends who are believers who are committed together as a church?

All these different things that have been fenced in in the organization are going to have to become released into the home in order for the church to be a platform, you know?

Yep.

Which is what Airbnb has done perfectly.

They're saying they set standards on what can and can't be done.

And then they obviously elevate people to, you know, superhost if people have met those standards.

And, you know, I think that the church, if we're going to, which, you know, I know we haven't talked about this a ton, but seeing no place left, you know, see Jesus being worshipped among every tribe, tongue, language, and nation, we're going to have to have church as a platform.

Digitally, whether it's in a building or a home or under a tree or on the internet, what's it going to take to finish Jesus' mission that he's given us?

And I would say, Jeff, your analogy points out, and you could look back at some of these examples like with Kodak inventing the first digital camera, but holding on to it because they were about film production.

Their question really isn't a matter of structure, it's more is it, are you adaptive?

Can the church exist in any environment?

And so we're, I feel like as a Western mindset church, we're more able to say, hey, this will work in Asia, this will work in Africa, you know, this will work, you know, in the Middle East.

And you have to be adaptive and culturally relevant, and you have to be adaptive and culturally relevant.

This will work in Latin America.

But can we do a model of church that is biblically sound, but adaptive to any circumstance and still healthy?

And I think that that's where you start the model.

And then the platform becomes your plumb bob for what health is, which is a biblical standard.

So if you were to ask me, I think that returning to, you know, just being a biblicist, which for some is a negative word.

But the truth of the matter is, if you go back to the roots and make it as simple, you see that God is not a mean God.

He calls us to this task to multiply his image across the earth, that it would fill the earth, giving him glory, and then the end will come.

And we're all looking for that moment.

That's the best for all of creation, when God redeems everything.

But to be adaptive in every circumstance, you have to have such a simple ecclesiology of what church is, that it can be adaptive in every circumstance and be available for every faithful follower of Jesus to do.

And it can't be so complex, it narrows the gap of who can be obedient.

And that may be where we're, you know, as people that believe in No Place Left and want to follow that movement, we are giving freedom broadly to what some looks reckless.

But we see it as obedient and allowing people to mature.

They won't get good at it unless we give them a chance to do it, and then making that commitment to walk with them and disciple them as they do it.

It looks too simple and too reckless to call this church when it does complete what we see biblically as the nature of the body of Christ and the character of what it should be.

So I agree with your concept of being a platform.

But I would also ask that you consider the premise, it's really about being adaptive in all circumstance.

Because as Carter's pointed out, even in your model for Airbnb, I mean, there may be a time, and we see that in California even this week,

that they are turning off electric and water to places that are having large gatherings, including people who are renting Airbnbs.

So how can we still, how can our brothers and sisters gather in their faith and do this in a real way, in a tangible way that continues encouraging and building up the saints for the work of ministry, that we could see this task completed?

God in every generation and in every obstacle has given a way to do that.

And if we seek him, he will show himself faithful.

And I'm confident in that.

In the midst of COVID, I believe he's pushing us out to our oikos and to our family and our friends that we would share faithfully there first.

That's right.

And I believe during this time that he is making people so isolated that they're starving for that natural relationship.

And the churches, they answer to that.

Genuine, real, authentic, vulnerable places that you can't have with the multitude.

You can only have with a few.

And when you do that, it creates a depth that cannot be reproduced.

And that's only in the church, in a place of redemption and love and not scorn and pain, toxic and manipulative.

I pray that that's what's being reproduced.

Well, I tell you what, our buildings were losing influence long before COVID came.

And so seeing where we are, and maybe it was gasoline on the flame causing us to pivot to more of a digital or a drive up.

To me, I've been encouraged at some level within the first March, April.

I'll be honest.

I was impressed.

Church, I was impressed.

Many of you were pivoting and trying different things.

And for a stretcher, it's like, hey, this is cool.

A bunch of these churches are now going online.

Small groups are moving online.

Let's figure out discipleship online.

Let's figure out evangelism.

Let's start focusing not on our 99, but on our ones.

Let's start disciple-making movements.

And really, that's kind of right where it's stopped.

We got the services going.

We got the, you know, we got physical small groups.

A lot of them moved online.

Then Easter came.

And it's like all the momentum, all the wind out of the sails just dropped.

Call it digital fatigue.

I don't know that it's digital's fault.

I think it's more of a lack of physical just to kind of have that counterbalance.

But we really got to this place of, man, I really just want to go back to the way that

it was.

I just want to go back to the way that it was.

Meanwhile, you know, in the season, we've talked with Stadia and as we talked with church

planners and churches.

Really, it's like we've lost that evangelism.

We've lost that view of the one of this season because it's been all about trying to go back

to that environment for the 99 or creating that online service experience that works for

the 99 and really struggles to connect with the one.

And I guess that's the thing that I really love about this idea of church everywhere and

what you guys are doing through No Place Left because the model scales.

You don't need the giga church environment.

You don't need the million-dollar building.

You don't need a bunch of professional people executing a performance.

You need individuals with a passion that are being obedient to Christ and taking in those

steps.

And I've seen what that looks like even at a personal level as people begin to have those

conversations and begin to do these things at an individual level outside of the building.

You know, it's funny within Stadia, you know, churches, they really struggle.

And one of the guys that I work with told a bunch of pastors once, hey, if you don't know

what the next step you're supposed to take is, take the step that gives you the most options

because you don't know what tomorrow holds.

Just take the step that can be flexible that you can adjust with.

I cannot think of a bad step that's going to come out of, hey, we should teach our people how to share their faith.

Hey, we should teach our people how to evangelize, how to disciple someone, how to get them to the place where they can be a disciple maker and unleash them.

We should teach our people to hold themselves to the spiritual standard where they can lead communion, where they can baptize somebody.

You know, it's funny, even just to wrap up, we were talking about, you know, the struggle of finances.

I was in Colorado.

I was in an Uber driving from Colorado.

I don't even remember what city I was in.

I just was earlier this year and it's COVID brain gone.

But this Uber driver's driving me down a street.

There's a giga church over here on the left.

I don't remember the name of the church.

Don't email me.

It's a giga church, massive building, looks luxurious on the outside.

It's the comment from the Uber driver.

That F-bombing church right there, they're throwing away so much of the F-bombing money from this community.

Look how much they care about what they're doing.

They don't give a piece of blank about me.

Literally the language coming out of this guy.

He doesn't know that I'm a pastor.

He doesn't know anything of who I am.

He's just really, truly showing himself.

And sometimes I feel like we've invested all these things into these buildings that aren't having the effectiveness.

Meanwhile, we have forgotten what it means to even empower people in the least bit to be effective in reaching our Uber driver.

That building is not going to reach an Uber driver, at least that Uber driver.

An individual conversation from a friend where the friend is the value that carries over.

That's going to go a much farther way.

And I'm all for street evangelism and that, but reaching out to the circle of influence in a big way is how we're going to impact a lot of people.

And we've forgotten that because it's hard to hold people accountable and it's hard to hold to that standard.

So I love this conversation.

I love you guys.

I love No Place Left and what you all are doing.

Just even here as we're landing the plane.

Hey, Steve, any closing thoughts?

I would encourage pastors that are considering this and being a full-time position that both Carter and I have on staffs at churches of various sizes, large and small.

You always look for what are those practical steps.

As we talk about these concepts, there needs to be some handholds of what to do.

And so I would encourage every pastor, just consider creating an experimental zone.

Because I know that when we try new things, there's probably that sense of, you know, what is the cost that we're going to pay for this?

Is this going to, you know, totally, you know, destroy my church if we try to do things?

And I would encourage them that as they consider and hear us talking about getting people to share the gospel and make disciples, that one, probably not everyone that you would want to do it will do it.

Because most Christians aren't sharing their faith.

But there are faithful few that are ready that God is stirring in their heart to do it.

And they're going to be messy.

And the woman at the well was not fully sanctified when she went back and brought people to Jesus.

The Mark V demoniac was probably really intimidating.

He was, you know, when he goes back to the Decapolis and shares.

So take a risk on a few and create an experimental place and look for a simple, biblical, reproducible path that you not only can teach others, but they can teach someone else and that it would multiply.

And No Place Left has free tools.

And glad to walk you through that process.

There are others.

But I would say risk in these moments where you've got some bandwidth to really step out in faith, of doing something new outside of your paradigm, a vision of what church is, and really explore biblically.

Where do you land on, you know, can the average person who accepts Christ and follows him as a disciple, a believer, be a disciple-making disciple?

And if those disciples gather together, can that be a healthy representation of the body of Christ, I mean, I've seen that, I mean, in real time, how churches brought that on and has wrestled with transitioning to some of this mentality and experimented kind of in a sandbox and starting to roll it out more and more as they're more comfortable with it.

I mean, I would love churches kind of wrestling with this mentality, this shift away from, hey, let's invite somebody to watch a service.

I mean, I've literally had a pastor tell me, tell the church, hey, you do your job.

You bring them to church.

I'll do my job.

I'll witness to them.

And that's a little cringeworthy, you know, because I don't remember seeing that in the Bible.

But that's another podcast.

Hey, Carter, as we're wrapping up here, any closing thoughts or anything on your side?

I mean, Jeff, I really appreciate what all your work that you're doing into getting the word out and all the people that are following you and being encouraged by you.

Just really appreciate you, bro.

We need more guys like you pushing people to return to the scripture in simplicity to see everybody reach from our neighborhood to the nation.

So I really appreciate you.

And, you know, I think the only three thoughts that came to my mind, and I'll say them really quick, is one, if you're a pastor out there and you're not, and you're married and you have children and you're not discipling and pouring into your wife and your children as much as you are energy into the organization that you're leading, then you have no business leading that church.

There's too many marriages and families that are destroyed on the altar of trying to maintain a legacy church or any church, for that matter.

Our first calling as followers of Jesus who are married is to our husband and our wife and then next to our children.

And so if whatever you're doing is not leading to a healthy family, then you don't need to be doing it.

And something needs to change.

The second thought is that if your church out there is creating more needs than it's meeting, then something needs to be changed as well.

When it comes to finances in the New Testament, we see that everywhere the church was, all the needs were met.

But it seems like today when a church comes into a community like your story, Jeff, it creates more needs than it meets.

You know, it sucks money from the community.

In a way, it almost becomes a second mortgage for its members.

And nobody needs a church that creates needs.

The world needs a church that is going to meet needs, both of its members and the lost.

If there are people in need in our churches that don't have an easy access to find wisdom and resources to meet that need,

then something's wrong with our churches.

And the final thing I'd say is how many people on a daily basis are hearing the gospel from mouth to ear

from the members of the church that you're leading?

If the pastor was to drop dead today, how many of its members would get the gospel out the very next day,

mouth to ear, how many people in the city would hear?

There's got to be an urgency about our congregations on getting the gospel from mouth to ear

or from text, from phone to phone, from Facebook to Facebook, Instagram to Instagram.

There's got to be a confidence, a competence, and a commitment and an urgency to do that more than just the pastor.

You know, we see that in Acts 4.

When the believers prayed, they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and boldly all believers proclaim the word of God.

And we've got to return to that.

If our church, if the only person who's proclaiming the gospel is the pastor on Sunday morning and it's not the members,

there's something drastically wrong with that church.

So those would be the three things, man.

Healthy church needs is to beget healthy families, meet needs, and get the gospel from mouth to ear from our neighborhoods to the nation.

So I appreciate you, Jeff.

Yeah, I'm totally going to steal that line.

If a church is creating more needs than it's meeting, it's got a problem.

That's solid truth there.

Carter, I'll give you credit.

At least the first two times after that, I'm probably just going to steal it.

Hey, just give the New Testament, the Holy Spirit, credit.

That's where it came from.

It's all about God.

Maybe paraphrase somewhere along the way or reinterpret it depending upon which direction you're leaning there.

Hey, listen, this has been a great conversation.

Thanks for the time here.

For Steve, I'm going to call him Scuba.

I haven't called him Scuba the entire show.

For Scuba, that's a long conversation another day.

For Scuba, for Carter, this is Jeff with The Church Digital.

Thanks for jumping on the podcast here.

And we'll see you next time here on the show.

Y'all have a good day.