EP111: Futurist Churches & The Virtual Reality Multisite Campus

Episode 111, 111 of the Church Digital Podcast, powered by Stadia Church Planning. Jeff here.

Hey, with 111, we're going to experiment with the new format. This is going to be interesting. I like this.

We're going to feature something new here on this podcast. Through Stadia, we've got a group of churches that I specifically work with.

We call them the Futurist Churches. These are the innovative group, the churches that want to try something different, that are well in the stretch of the limits.

Yeah, they're recognizing that their mission and their vision doesn't need to change, but the strategy, it needs to.

It needs to adapt. It needs to evolve. We need to do different things to be effective, not only for the future, but honestly, thank you very much, COVID.

We need to do something different to be effective today.

And so these are the conversations that I get to work with, with the Stadia Futurist Churches.

And it's one of these Futurist Churches that I even want to feature today.

So the first time that I met a lead pastor, Josh Amstutz, in a Zoom conversation pre-COVID, Josh is lead pastor at Lakeland Church, a church up in Wisconsin.

First time I met him, I'll be honest, he told me he wanted to launch a VR campus out of his church.

I was kind of taken aback, in shock, maybe speechless for a little while.

It was the first time I had a lead pastor not only say, but spell VR.

Like I never actually had the experience of a church, DJ Soto aside, actually saying VR.

And so I was really intrigued by this, started asking questions.

And the more that I really kind of understood Josh, I started to understand his passion to do something in this area.

Now, maybe he didn't understand the technical aspects of it, but he was open and he was willing to explore more of it.

And so I loved having these conversations with Josh and the team with Lakeland, starting to help them figure out what it looks like to do a virtual reality campus spun off of the physical church.

The conversations just continued to grow and started casting ideas.

And then I was like, hey, you know what the next step we need to do?

We need to get you together with Jason Poling.

Now, some of you guys may remember from an earlier podcast, Jason is one of these guys that's done it.

He has spun off his smaller church, a physical church, not only broadcasting services digitally, but he's also doing Avatar Church.

He's doing virtual reality church.

So I've got a guy here, a friend to contact from Cornerstone Church up in the Pacific Northwest.

Jason's doing this.

Man, let's get these guys together and let them dialogue and learn from each other.

Let Josh and the Lakeland team ask questions, drill into some of the insight that Jason has from the experience of it.

And the best part of this, as Josh and his team and Jason talked, I actually didn't say very much because there was so much wisdom being passed directly from it that I just got to sit back and not even facilitate,

but watch and learn myself as we're hearing from the guy who's actually done it, answering the questions of the people who want to do it.

And so it's a phenomenal conversation here involving one of Stadia's futurist churches, getting them connected into this idea of how to be more aggressive with this strategy by doing something new, something that they already wanted to do.

So for the conversation, we're bringing in Josh Amstutz and some of the other Lakeland team into the conversation.

We're bringing in Jason Poling, lead pastor over at Cornerstone Church up in the Pacific Northwest.

Of course, myself, Jeff, with the Church Digital and Stadia Church Planning in a conversation that I'm calling the Futurists and the Virtual Reality Campus.

Okay, everybody.

Here you go.

No, so I was on a big staff in Iowa, and I know how – it's funny because sometimes when you have a big staff, obviously you can do a lot more.

But I did find that we ended up talking a lot more than we actually got stuff done because it's harder to get things done when you have such a huge committee.

And so I'm at a smaller church now, and so that's probably the only reason why we've gone faster is, you know, it's just me and another pastor.

And, you know, we've got a staff pretty much part-time.

Everyone's part-time except for me and the other – so anyway, you can get – you probably can, you know, just move forward on some things more quickly.

So that's the only reason why we probably got in the game quick is not as many committees to go through.

But so I've been in the big church and the small church, so I understand the pros and cons of both.

But it's really – getting into the VR ministry, it's really surprisingly simple and cheap.

That's the beauty of virtual reality is you can have a whole other – you don't even have to have – imagine that.

You don't have to have a building stewardship campaign.

You don't have – I mean, you can build another church for almost free and have people start coming instantly and preach the gospel to them and develop community.

It's crazy.

So, you know, that's why it's neat that, you know, large churches, small churches, in-between churches, everyone can do it.

It really isn't hard.

I mean, honestly, for me, it was just getting a headset and diving in.

Pastor DJ, so you probably – I mean, Jeff's friends with him.

You probably know him.

So I connected with DJ.

I went to his church when I first got my headset, and I was like – you know, I was hooked.

And at that point, it's just a matter of learning the platform you want to launch on because there's several different – or probably three or four, like, major platforms that you probably would be interested in launching a church campus.

Figure out which one you want to start with.

Figure out the – how that works.

You know, just like learning a new video game, learning how it works, and then basically just start doing it faithfully.

You know, that's the key is launch it and just keep showing up every week.

Eventually, word will spread.

People start popping in.

They'll see the event, and you're there.

So I don't want to make it so simple that it sounds ridiculous, but it really – you know, there was a lot of other pieces and details in terms of learning the software and how to upload, you know, our video for worship, how to – you know, how to – you know, crowd management is a little different because, you know, you have to mute people.

So how do you do that sensitively because there can be trolls.

You're not going to have that as much in an in-real-life church, or maybe you do.

I don't know if you get wild-haired prophets, self-proclaimed prophets coming in the middle of your sermons, but that does happen in VR.

So you got to mute people sometimes.

So just stuff like that.

Or if you're really adventurous, maybe you want them to, you know, the wild-haired prophets, interrupt your sermon.

Can we break it down maybe into some portions of like – yeah.

Let's talk a little – I would love to get your insights on, first off, technology platforms, so the technical side of things.

Like what would you recommend?

What have you learned?

What have you liked?

What have you kind of also perhaps explored and you didn't like it for whatever reason?

Yeah.

So we can kind of like – we can address that as one thing.

Then a second thing that I would love for you to address is what have you learned about how to best run a service?

Like is there a pared-down version of what you do from Sunday versus in the VR experience?

And then the third thing that I would love for you to touch on would be what's the staffing time commitment and people necessary to make this thing happen for the long haul?

So does that make sense?

I just broke – I just created our agenda.

That was awesome, man.

You're good.

Yeah, I appreciate that, Josh.

So first one, technology.

So you've got to determine – although I didn't even think through this because I didn't know what – I didn't really know what I was doing.

I'll be honest.

I just jumped in.

So now I know a little bit more.

I can help you guys perhaps in determining where you – like what target audience perhaps that you want to reach.

I just jumped into Altspace because I knew DJ was there.

And I was like, well, maybe I can do it there because he's doing it really is what I did.

But there are multiple other platforms I wasn't even aware of at the time that all have their distinctive pros and cons.

So, you know, Altspace is probably the most tame in terms of – and maybe the easiest perhaps to get into.

And so I do recommend Altspace because, you know, it's kind of a nice entry point.

Maybe you branch out from there.

We're thinking about branching out to some other platforms.

But it is – I've found probably a little bit older crowd.

But, of course, everyone there is pretty tech savvy.

So it's an older crowd with a lot of techy kind of qualities about them.

Because VR is still pretty – it's taking shape and capturing the culture.

But it's still a small segment of the population.

But it will grow.

I really believe that.

So you're going to see – there are some young people in Altspace, but you're probably looking in, you know – although, I mean, we just baptized – actually, we just baptized Sunday two new believers.

And they're both in their 20s.

So there's 20s.

But then we also see people in the 50s and 60s.

You see all the gamut.

So that's kind of cool in terms of a diversity audience.

But if you go into a place like VRChat, that's going to be mostly your millennials, Gen Zers.

And it's a little bit more Wild West.

It's a little – you really want to have people that are okay with just getting hammered by trolls and people that there is no respect whatsoever for church at all.

They're just going to come at you.

But the mission field is super ripe there.

In fact, one of my good friends, Pastor Brock in Michigan, he goes on there regularly and does evangelism, just goes into pubs.

And it's amazing the hunger that these folks have for the gospel.

But they're hardcore.

I mean, they will – you've got to send in your Pauls.

You don't want to send in your – maybe Barnabas isn't ready for this.

Or Timothy.

Timothy.

Don't send Timothy into VRChat yet.

And it's harder to start a church there because the platform is just a little bit more wonky.

You just need a little bit more skill in developing worlds.

So there's some labor there.

Rec Room is kind of the dark horse.

DJ and I were talking about how we think that's going to really become maybe the dominant player.

Because they're investing a lot more resources in Rec Room as a group than the other platforms, seems like.

And they're – because they're everywhere.

I mean, you can get them on the Sony PlayStation VR.

You can get them on all the headsets.

You can get them on your 2D, PC, Mac, as well as your phones now.

I think you can do it on your mobile.

So they're just going all in.

And it's actually – if you're really – maybe you've got some – your youth pastor wants to be involved because it's a younger crowd.

I mean, you've really got a lot of middle schoolers, teenagers.

I mean, there's other people that are older, but that's kind of the sweet spot for Rec Room.

So you really can reach the young people quick.

And it's a little more tame.

VR Chat, again, why it's Wild West is people can be as scantily clad as they desire to be with their avatars.

So you might be preaching a sermon, and who knows?

Who knows what's going to walk in on the service and distract everyone?

I know it's a cartoon, but still, it can be weird there.

All space in Rec Room, you're not going to have that kind of craziness.

So those are the main – there's another one called Sansar, which – or Sansar, which none of us use.

I've jumped in.

It's pretty well developed.

They come from the developer that did Second Life back in, you know, what, 15, 20 years ago.

They're doing that as their VR platform.

That's an open – I mean, if you're looking for a place where there's probably no church – I don't know, Jeff.

I don't know how much you've looked, Jeffrey, into the – I don't think there's anybody there.

So that's a place where there's nothing, a wide-open mission field.

But I don't know much about Sansar.

So the three biggies are VR Chat, Altspace, and Rec Room.

And you're going to reach – it's kind of like Altspace is the Facebook of VR, VR Chats, probably like the Snapchat.

And I don't know, maybe – or TikTok and maybe Rec Room is the Snapchat.

I don't know.

You can tell the difference, like the crowd.

The Facebook crowd, your grandma might be on there.

But she's not going to be on Snapchat or TikTok, probably.

So it depends on who you want to reach.

So technology, though, you know, getting stuff – your video uploaded to each platform.

It's hard to really go into detail there because each platform has its own mechanisms by which you upload that stuff.

And if you get into it, we'd be happy to – I've got a director of operations.

She's just amazing, does a great job, and she knows all of that, the ins and outs of that.

So if you get started, we can talk again and say, here's how you upload a video.

Here's how you put your sermon notes.

You can put them up there where nobody sees them, but you can see them.

There's all kinds of little details like that that each platform is going to have their own, you know, way to do it.

So I'm trying to think of that answers.

Any other tech questions, though?

I'm trying to think.

Those are the platforms, but I didn't really answer your tech.

What else did you ask her, Josh, about technology and how to get started?

I think that's actually really helpful to just – and so then with that, though, obviously, once you pick your platform,

then you're just going to have to be, you know, obviously, develop your world or develop your church through, you know, that's ideal for that platform.

And also, yeah, and Altspace is going to have some standard rooms that you can use.

So right now, we're developing a world, but we've been using for seven months just the standard room, one of the standard rooms, and it works fine.

VR chat, I think that you have to build your own world.

So that's the labor there of somebody that knows how to do the design.

And you really have to know Unity, which is a type of – or there's another one that they use, Unreal Engine, I think.

But I think Unity is the one that they use to develop games, and you'd have to have somebody that knows how to do that.

Rec Room is very simple.

Again, they put so much kind of WYSIWYG type stuff in there that you could probably in a few hours develop a church room for yourself.

So Rec Room is pretty cool in that way.

But Altspace, they have standard templates.

Also, in terms of events, Altspace is going to be more clear to the general population who gets on what's happening when.

VR chat is a little unclear.

It advertises and highlights worlds when you come in, but I don't recall it really showing events.

So you have to develop your following, right?

You have to go in there and start meeting people and connecting and friending.

That's what Brock does.

And then he has a church service because he knows all these people who he's friended.

And then Rec Room, I think, is the same way.

But you can do it.

I mean, again, the mission field is ripe.

So that's not even an obstacle to me.

Don't view that as, oh, my gosh, we're not going to have our event highlighted.

No, if you go into a pub and you start talking to people, they'll friend you.

And before you know it, you've got a congregation.

So that's not a worry there.

So the second question, let's see if I can remember.

Technology and then what was the second question, Josh?

You got it written down.

Yeah, sir.

I wrote it down.

Service kind of set up.

What is the – how would you design a service or church differently in that setting?

Yeah, so I – to keep things simple because we are, you know, in terms of resources, I mean, we're a smaller church.

I was like, man, I just got to replicate what I'm doing already.

I don't want to write another sermon, do it differently.

We already got our worship team and we've got that video.

Let's just keep it real streamlined.

And other people do it differently.

DJ's only on VR.

I think Brock – I don't know what he does if he changes his sermon at all.

Actually, Brock has more of a conversational apologetic, so I think he does a different sermon for his church in Michigan.

But for me, I basically – same sermon.

How long is it?

My sermons are probably too long.

Like yesterday, it was 45 minutes, 45 to 50.

I probably shoot 45.

And here's the thing.

I thought, you know, this – I was like, man, I probably – before I got into VR, I was like, man, I probably should cut that back because these are gamers.

They don't want to sit there and listen.

And I just – I don't know which one of you preach.

Maybe all of you do.

But it's like a lot of work.

Once you write the thing, you're like, it's so much work to go back and cut it.

You're just like, forget it.

I'm going to bed.

So I decided I'm just going to preach what I do because it would be easier on my schedule.

And I'm shocked.

People, they're hungry for truth.

They'll sit there and listen for 45 minutes straight on mute and just – it's amazing.

And they really are – it just shows you that they're ready to hear the gospel.

So I wouldn't worry about that at all.

I mean, if your sermons are short, great.

Keep them that way.

Just do what you do.

With your worship, do you do a full – I mean, you play your full worship set and people sing along?

No, we only – the worship is the hardest part.

That's the one change that you're going to have for the most part because you can do everything else.

You can have a welcome team, welcome as they spawn into the facility.

Hey, good to have you here.

And you can have all this stuff.

You can basically just take everything you do, IRL, in real life and pretty much do the same thing in VR.

The only difference is your sacraments.

And I don't know what – what's your tradition?

Are you guys non-denom or what are you?

So I don't know what your views are on communion and baptism, but we're more Zwinglian, you know, symbolic.

So for us, it's easy.

Like if my – you know.

So Brock, he's a Lutheran, and so he's like, I can't do baptism or communion.

So it's just different on your tradition.

So for me, I can replicate all that in the VR except for the one thing is worship.

That is because the lag time – we actually one time opened up everybody's mic to sing, and it was like that old – I'm old.

I don't know how old you are.

The Saturday Night Live skit where you had Frankenstein and, you know, the guys singing Christmas carols.

Remember that?

Anybody remember that?

Love it?

And no?

Yeah.

It just sounded so bad.

Like only God in his grace could appreciate that worship.

It was so bad.

So we just, you know, mute it.

So you can't have corporate worship in that way.

So you have to mute it, and then you got to show a video because you could have – we're working on getting our worship director get in there live, and he's done it a couple times, but there's some setup with software and et cetera where he can go in there and actually play.

They have, you know, they have like talent open mic nights in all space, and it sounds really good.

So you can have a live worship set if you want.

You can have just a video of a downloaded worship.

You can get Elevation worship on your screen, whatever.

Or if you want to do your own, we do our own worship and put it up there.

But we just do one song because, you know, it seems odd since nobody's singing to go too long with the worship.

But that's the thing I wish we could – that's the one thing I do miss.

But we tell them, hey, go ahead and sing your heart out.

You're on mute.

God loves it.

So that's the only change that I do.

Everything else is exactly almost the same as I do in real life.

Does that help at all?

Yeah, it is.

That's really helpful.

When you finish a service, do you – I mean, do you have a prayer team there?

Do you, like, walk down off the stage and say, I'll be down front and I'll be – I'd love to meet with you?

So I do – I always do a Q&A at the end, which, again, is striking because they stay for an hour, over an hour in there.

And then they stay for – it's like another hour.

They'll end up being there asking questions.

And, you know, we have a small church.

I mean, it's probably like 25 to 35 any given Sunday.

But they're staying there and they're asking – so we have Q&A.

And they ask me all kinds.

You can imagine the gamut of questions.

Sometimes, you know, you wonder if they're trolling.

But most of them are pretty sincere.

So we do that.

And then we go to a prayer world that one of our members has designed.

And they go and pray or fellowship or what have you.

See, you can – sky's the limit, man.

You can go play VR paintball after church if you want.

You can go to a, you know, VR restaurant and act like you're eating.

I don't know.

So breaking bread together.

Yeah, you can do whatever you want there.

But we do Q&A for a while.

And, again, this is a very unreached people group.

They're either mostly never been to church or de-churched.

Like we've got a bunch of people that have had bad exposure to church and have been so wounded at an early age that they – decades, you know, they're just barely putting their feet in the water with VR church, right?

Because they're like, okay, this is – you know, if they are a cult, I can get out of here quick, you know?

So you get a lot of people that have a lot of questions.

So the Q&A time is pretty special to me.

That's kind of how you do your setup, your service.

Yeah.

I love that.

All right, last one.

So probably we'll spend maybe the most time here.

But what's the – like before you launch it, what's your time commitment?

Well, like really at the end of the day, how many people are in this thing?

How often do you need to be back in this thing, following up with people, connecting with this?

And then I even want to get into are there like ideal personalities?

So I know you're preaching this thing.

Does it – would you – would it be better to have a VR campus pastor in your – I don't know.

Just those type of things.

And an apologist or an evangelist versus like someone who likes to debate?

So the last question, I mean, that's – you know, I think there's so many obviously gifts that the church needs.

So I mean maybe all of them.

If you can – if you have them, if you have the resources, they may do different – maybe the preacher isn't one of those.

Maybe he's – or maybe he's just one of those gifts.

I mean because the thing is like if you see the different guys that are involved in VR ministry right now – and by the way, we've got a VR ministry network.

If you guys are interested in joining on Discord, Pastor DJ, Pastor Brock, myself, Pastor Benek, I think he – he doesn't really come that much, but he's down in Florida.

And then Jay Earhart, who does a – sort of an online Twitch Discord gaming church.

And they're all – so everybody's different.

So I'm kind of like – you know, I went to Southern Seminary.

I'm, you know, Baptist growing up.

I'm EFCA now.

But I'm pretty – you know, I'm pretty traditional, believe it or not, even though I'm in VR.

Just the way I was trained, the way I grew up.

So I'm pretty much just a standard preacher.

You know, I just do the message.

DJ is probably more of a conversational, just kind of walking through the text style.

Brock is like an apologist.

So – and that works well.

So – and then Jay is really relational.

Just a relational guy.

A very caring guy.

So you've got the gamut of guys that are doing it.

And each one of us are having a lot of fruit.

So honestly, I would – you know, you put the word out and say who's interested.

See who pipes up from the volunteer resources that you have.

And, of course, your staff.

You'd figure that out as well.

And just roll with that.

And God's going to use each one.

So we've got – from our In Real Life Church, my director of operations comes.

A couple of the teens kind of got us started.

They're kind of – they're a little flaky, so they're kind of in and out.

But they got us started.

And then we got a guy who's in his 60s who does some teaching small group.

We have a small group on Wednesday night.

He's going to lead an experiencing God thing because that meant a lot to him years ago.

And then – I'm trying to think of who else.

But anyway, we got this gamut of – oh, we got another guy who's in the Air Force.

He's in his late 20s, and he helps out.

And as far as personality there, the older guy, he's a little more extroverted and teaching-oriented.

But the rest of them are kind of a little bit more introverted, which is great.

You got to consider why are people on VR ministry, VR church, instead of going to a church.

Well, either they've been wounded or some of them are unable to leave their homes.

They have some disabilities, what have you.

Some of them are socially anxious.

There's a lot of social anxiety and social awkwardness that – not everybody.

But, you know, they just – going to a church is very terrifying in physical life.

And then a lot of them, you know, there's a lot of geeky things going on.

I'm a geek.

So they will love to talk about VR and the headset and games.

You know, you could get on that for a long time.

So you don't need the typical, you know, I don't know, all the big-name guys, you know, Stephen Furtick, Judah Smith, you know, cool-looking, you know, just normal, just down-to-earth, maybe even shy.

It doesn't matter as long as they're able to have some conversations.

So it's really who do you have and just throw them at it, and God's going to weave the relationships.

And I've seen that.

I've seen different connections and relationships forge.

So, yeah, I don't know if that – I wouldn't worry too much about that piece, I guess.

Authenticity, that's a big one.

We all know that, right?

That's a huge – I mean, that's the kind of lingua franca now.

But you don't want somebody going in there just being a, you know, the preacher, you know.

They really want authentic connections and relationships.

So I don't – you know, if I just preach and I head it out, that would be weird.

But I stick around and talk to them.

I go to the – try to go to the small group as much as I can.

And then this leads to the next point, discord.

So that's how we stay connected.

I don't get on VR that much.

You know, some of them are on a lot, but I just don't have time.

So I might get on for the two hours on Sunday and then the one hour on Wednesday night.

And then occasionally, like this week, I met up with someone who was wanting to talk about the faith and learn more.

So I met up with them for an hour.

But I rarely get on.

So discord for me is like our – where they can throughout the week ask questions and talk and chat.

And that's – I like that personally.

I can go quick with that.

So you want to have a – you probably want to have a discord server or something like that.

Are you guys familiar with discord?

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Yeah, in the millennial 20-something gaming VR world, discord is the platform.

Yeah.

I know in the church world, it's not.

But if you really want to connect with those people, it's on discord.

Yeah.

That's like the 168-hour, 167-hour-a-week engagement.

Yeah.

Aside from what you're getting in a couple hours a week in VR.

And that's honestly – yeah, Jeff, that's a good point.

Yeah, that's what makes VR really amazing or any digital ministry is I feel like I've actually – that's crazy.

Not only have I had more gospel conversations in the last six months than I've – sadly that I've had in my entire 13-year ministry.

Like just because it's so much.

I mean it's just so right.

But I've also had some even deeper connections in terms of what they share.

Not that I've got really close relationships here in the church and the one in Iowa.

But you do in real-life ministry, yeah, it's all Sunday and you do that a few hours.

And you don't really – you might go to coffee with some of your kids.

You know what I mean?

Like it's just different.

Like they're just more open and you're dialoguing 167 hours a week.

You never know what's going to come up.

And it's really fascinating how for all the critique of it being virtual, oh, that's not real.

You hear that out there.

It's actually more real than in real life.

Bizarre.

I didn't believe that until I got into it.

When you get into it, you'll see what I mean.

I don't know if you have any thoughts on that or questions, but yeah.

That's really good, man.

I just appreciate you being able to break down even like telling us how many hours you spend in there is helpful.

Because I was just wondering like do you have to go back every day?

Or do people only enter in during your event?

For us, yes, because it's just an event.

Now, once we create the world, they can come in and enjoy it.

In our world, actually, we're creating a lot of cool things like we'll have a prayer area, but we've got a Stations of the Cross.

So I'm – you know, I actually – I know that's Catholic and stuff, but I personally think it's very helpful the way – if you do it, you know, a certain way.

And so we've got stations, virtual Stations of the Cross for them to have, you know, that experience.

A prayer labyrinth, again, I'm getting all weird on you.

That's cool.

So you can go do that virtually.

Campfire, they can hang out.

We're going to have our VR Counseling Center.

So we do VR biblical counseling.

I'm a big biblical counseling guy.

Like I'm just – huge part of my life in ministry.

And so we're doing that in VR as well.

We've got VR counselors.

So they'll be able to meet in facilities on the thing.

So we're going to create a museum that kind of – call it the Kingdom Museum that kind of – I don't know how much you guys are into biblical theology, kind of seeing the –

the timeline of the kingdom in Scripture.

So we're going to, like, have these areas where they can go and experience – you know, that's the vision is they go to – they go to the museum, they see the one kingdom era, and they can actually spawn into it and go into a world that deals with, you know, the perfect kingdom, right?

When it was first created in paradise, right, Adam and Eve, and they can actually experience that in some fashion and learn a little bit of Scripture and what God's doing in that.

And then they go to different other kingdoms, right, fallen kingdom, et cetera.

So that's the thing you can do, just sharing all that because in VR, for pretty cheap, you can do a whole lot of cool things that people will want to hang out in and actually learn from because it's so tangible, visual.

It's just a different way of – it's every youth pastor's dream, right?

It's like, how can I make this clear?

So, yeah.

Hey, Jason.

When you move from an event to the world, how will that change in your staffing?

Will that be 24-7?

Will you have people in there all the time at different places within your world?

No.

So the world is just open, and people can go visit as much as they like, and we hope that they'll have some – there'll be places where you can see, hey, if you have any questions or if you'd like to talk, you know, click here, whatever.

And just like you do with your website, they'll click there, I need counseling, boom, and then it'll get to your staff.

But nobody has to be, like, on the website at that point.

Same thing in the world.

There will be maybe special times.

With, like, counseling, for example, we'll have – scheduled, so they'll meet in there with their counselor.

But, no, you don't have – no one has to be in there all the time.

I mean, that would be cool, I suppose, if you had, you know, Allspace or Microsoft, who owns Allspace, they'll have somebody staffed in their main world, which is called Campfire World, so they can answer questions.

So that would be really legit if – we don't have that resourcing.

So that's a great idea, though.

Wow.

And by the way, the director of operations, Nicole, she puts a lot of – a lot more time in than I do.

So there are other hours required of your staff.

So, you know, I'm the lucky one that I just go in for a few hours.

She goes in there and uploads all the stuff.

And so there's – and she's actually learning some design stuff.

So there are some more hours that would be devoted to that person.

So you really need a key digital coordinator, whatever you want to call that role.

Yeah, what do you guess she's putting in?

She's probably – you know how staff – the good staff, right, they'll do a lot more volunteer hours on top of their – you know, she's probably putting way more hours than I realize.

I'm guessing it's probably got to be – I mean, once you get it down to a science, it gets easier.

But she's got to be putting in a few hours every week just to get the stuff in there.

And then if she's doing some design stuff, I mean – yeah, once you start getting in – if you have a person that's doing all your design, you know, that's more work, you know.

But you can get down to a science and probably five hours a week, you know, you could probably put together a – like DJ, he has an interact for his sermons.

They'll start in one building, do the worship and announcements.

Then they'll all walk over to an interactive space.

And he's got some builders that will every week or every series change it up so it reflects the topic of the series.

Yeah, I saw that.

So, yeah, that might take – that will take some, you know, five to ten hours probably each series change.

It's kind of like your creative arts team that sets up your stage with different backdrops.

So – and volunteers, you know, if you find the right – if you've got a good pool of volunteers and some techie people, some young people that might – they might just do it for free, you know.

They'll be like, man, I'd love to do that.

How much of the world building that you did, how much of it was in-house where you were training volunteers or staff to create that versus contract outside?

Because I know DJ's got some contacts.

Like, what does that look like or what will that look like for you guys?

So, yeah, we did find that it was a little challenging, you know, because it's a specialized thing.

There's not that many people that are in VR and doing design.

And so we actually had a tough time trying to find even someone to pay to do it.

Not that they're not out there.

And I didn't maybe look as hard as I should, but – because we were doing fine.

We were like, hey, you know, we got this room.

It's great.

It's not fancy.

But once we started wanting to build, we actually, by God's grace, we had a guy who's in our church who does design.

He like – he's learning it, but he's pretty good at it.

And so he's doing it pro bono for us right now.

But at some point, you know, I'd maybe like to either bring him on staff or pay him a little bit because, you know, he's doing work for us.

But that just – that was for us.

We just happened to have a guy that was in our church.

I think DJ maybe had the same thing where he had some guys that were really good designers that came to his church.

And then he maybe brought them on staff or I don't know if he pays them.

I don't know how that works.

You could ask DJ.

But it is a little challenging maybe to find somebody at first.

But once you start developing contacts, then before you know it, this designer knows these guys.

And so – and I've got some connections too that – like VRChat, I got a guy.

I don't know, Jeff, do you know the architect by any chance down in El Salvador?

A little bit.

I've talked with him on Discord.

Yes, but he's a really, really gifted designer.

If you wanted to do something pretty nice, I can connect you to him.

And he's pretty reasonable pricing, so.

Jason, when you say designer, what's the backdrop of that?

Meaning, where do they come from?

Are they people that have been designing in other places, Minecraft, whatever that is, Roblox, stuff like that, or designing from the marketplace?

What's their background that leads them into designing worlds for those?

You know, some of them just – they learn it, you know, they're just self-taught.

Some of them may have some background in, you know, a lot of times game design.

So the architect, he's actually developing his own game, a pretty amazing MMO, but he's doing that.

I don't know.

I think he's got a – I think his degree is in computer science.

Okay.

Design.

So that's a guy who's got some skill.

And then there's a bunch of other people that are just kind of learning.

Unity is the big platform for design.

And then you upload it into Allspace, VRChat, what have you.

And so there's a lot of people that are now learning that self-taught.

But they can be very good.

So the one thing you want to be careful of – this is something to log away.

I know I'm giving too many details perhaps, but don't – you don't want your world to be so nice that it gets kind of wonky and it's hard to – what will happen is places like Allspace for sure will not then feature your world because your world's too intense, too heavy on the data.

So you want to figure out how to keep it under a certain limit, but yet still be a decent world.

So there's some worlds that are really awesome, like unbelievable – a lot of Allspace is cartoonish because it keeps it at a lower level.

And it's just a particular art form that they decided to go with.

VRChat's more anime art form.

But there's still some, like, real – like, the art form that some people in Unity design look real.

Like, it actually looks like the world.

And you can upload that in Allspace, but that world will never be featured.

So it's going to be harder for you to be noticed.

And so for churches, yeah, this doesn't make sense to make a really nice world, and then no one knows you're there.

So just be careful of that when you get a designer.

Because some designers are like, I want to make – I want to paint the Sistine Chapel.

And you're like, no, that's not what we want.

Now, with your church, like your VR church, you said you got 25, 30 people or whatever.

Is it the same, 25, 30 people?

Or is it always new?

So we have a core – there's probably a core of maybe – I'm trying to think here.

Maybe 15 to 20, I would say, are, like, regulars.

So they're like the core community.

And then you get – and then some Sundays it might just be 20 people at the core.

And then sometimes you get 40.

And so I – 25 to 35 is kind of that general.

But, yeah, there's – there are a lot of new people that come in.

And so they stay the whole service.

Some don't come back.

And then maybe because I preach 45 minutes.

I don't know.

But some of them, you know, you've got to consider where a lot of these people, they're like never been to church.

But so there's – it's a lot of – it's definitely – when I first started, I thought of it more as a street ministry.

Like I'm going out on the street and I'm just preaching the gospel.

If somebody stops and listens, yes.

I was hoping for one person just to come and listen.

And because, you know, if you're on the streets of my hometown or probably yours, if I go out on the street corner downtown and preach for 45 minutes and one person stops for five minutes and I'm like, hallelujah, you know, like Jesus is coming, you know.

Because no one listens to you on the street.

But, man, I went into VR and people just come in.

And so, yeah, you're going to get a big portion, not a majority, but you're going to get a portion of people that are just going to come in, hear the gospel one time, and then some of them will come back.

It's like Mars Hill, right?

A small minority will come back.

A few of them might talk – a number of people have – sometimes they'll dabble and come back, but sometimes they'll just say, hey, can I talk to you offline?

Usually it's the atheists who are, like, ready to just, you know.

But those are fine.

I enjoy that.

You know, I have an apologetic, nice conversation.

So you'll get some of those.

And then you'll get probably some in Mars Hill who just think you're a total idiot.

Like, this was – for them, this is hilarious that a church is in VR and they're watching and they're going to tell their friends, you know, why they're smoking pie.

Like, can you believe, you know, they got this stupid church?

So you're going to get a mix.

But, yeah, you all – every Sunday – and DJ would probably say the same thing.

You're going to have, like, new people that have never heard the gospel that are going to come.

It's unlike your in-real-life church.

I know you get visitors, but honestly, in real life, a lot of our visitors, they're probably hopping from different churches.

They've already – there's very rare where you get, like, just fresh, never churched, right?

I mean, you got a bigger church, so you might get more than we do.

But in VR, every Sunday, every Sunday.

So it's super – you can hear that I'm excited.

It's exciting for ministers, right?

You're like, this is why I got into this job.

I was wondering about how do you preach – this is just kind of a, like, practical question.

Do you memorize your whole message?

No, no.

So how do you preach with VR on and address your notes?

So you can do that.

You can upload the notes.

But all of the first – when we first got into it – and this is why I would love to help you,

because if you can avoid the pain that we went through, where I was, like –

we were trying to get it uploaded, and it was breaking down.

And there's some – when you get in there, you will find that every Sunday –

I don't know if it's, like, technological demons or what, but something goes wrong.

We've been doing it for seven months, and every Sunday, something different goes wrong.

So just get used to that.

So at the very beginning, my notes wouldn't show up.

So I'm like – I got my manuscript here on my table in my office, and I'm like, you know,

for 45 minutes, you know, staring like this at my notes.

I want to help you avoid that.

So we'll help you get your notes on the screen where you can see them.

Jason, I feel like we would put this in the pocket of reaching, that, like, everybody we're going after,

maybe everyone that's a part of our volunteer teams in the future, like,

that they'd be people that we don't see on the weekend.

Is that accurate in your mind?

Like, would you confirm that?

Like, everyone we're going after, all the teams we're building are probably people we've never met and are outside of our area.

Yeah, I mean, definitely.

We do have some of our In Real Life folks that come, and I think there was, like, one person in our city who was coming because of COVID,

and her church was shut down.

So anyway, but that's unusual.

Usually it's all over the world, right?

All over the country and all over the world.

In fact, one of the guys that got saved and got baptized is from Estonia, former Soviet Union.

And, you know, and I always like to try to connect them to a local fellowship, and I try to help them find a good church when they're ready.

So you've got to consider, again, some of them are de-churched, and they're just traumatized by church.

And this is just a rehabilitation period.

And some of them live in Estonia, where there just really aren't a lot of gospel, good gospel church options.

So this, you know, could be the best option for them to be on VR.

So, but, yeah, you're right, to get to a mentality where you – it really is a shift for people.

Like, people typically, when they critique VR church or any digital ministry, they did that with livestream until COVID hit, is, oh, that's not real.

Like, it's not real fellowship.

It's not real accountability.

It's not real discipleship.

And I have totally seen that to be blunt.

Those are just – those are the typical historical church responses anytime there's something new, right?

We just get all – you know, our panties in a bundle, and I don't know why we do that.

And we start to eat our own, you know.

We get critical of the other person who's doing – you know, it's like I just preach in Luke 9, you know, and they're casting out demons in your name.

But they're not with us, you know.

Stop them.

So, it's – it's – it – they're real people.

They have real issues.

They are really seeking Jesus.

They – they, you know, I think – I think it's probably even more – like I said, more of a – it feels more of a real ministry sometimes.

Like, you're actually going deeper with them.

And some would say, oh, the avatar.

You know, they got an avatar.

They're not showing their face.

They got a different name, screen name.

And, you know, that – at first, I thought that was a problem.

But the reality is, what is – what's in a name?

Like, what is a name?

Like, my name, Jason Poling, is just a legal name that, you know, back in the day, I might have been Jason's son of Ron, you know.

So, the name's – so, it's your identity.

When you're in VR, that name, it's your identity in that community.

Like, and you don't want to, like – now, you could be a troll who changes, you know, ads on, whatever, every week.

You can't change your name that often, but you could add a new account and come in troll.

But once you get a name and you're a sincere seeker, that's your identity.

Like, that's how you're known.

And you live out that identity.

So, to me, that whole idea of, like, well, that's not their real name.

They're hiding behind something.

I just think those are straw men.

You know, these people are real people that are asking real questions and getting really saved.

So, and then discipleship.

Actually, church discipline, which no one likes to talk about, is sometimes easier to do in VR.

Like, on Discord, if somebody's being – you know, we've had – we actually kicked a guy.

So, we excommunicated a guy from Discord.

Because – and we – I ministered to – I said, hey, bro, you can't be saying that kind of stuff.

Like, that's not godly.

If you don't be a part of this fellowship, like, you can't say those things to people.

So, we gave them warning, warning, almost followed Matthew 18.

And, you know, we have elders at our church and pastors that come in and preach and stuff and know the guys.

And so, finally, I kicked them.

So, there's excommunication.

How often, you know, do we actually do real church discipline in real life churches?

It's super hard, right?

I don't know about you guys.

Maybe you guys are like, every week we excommunicate.

But, anyway, I know that's a tough discussion.

But people talk about discipleship.

That's part of discipleship is helping people know that this is how Christians live.

We want to help you live that way.

But if you're choosing not to and you keep defiling the community, like, you can't do that.

And so, there's repercussions.

And we'd be happy to – after we – and I'm talking to him now trying to help him see what he was doing because he wants to come back in.

So, that's discipleship.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, that's good.

So, yeah, we don't see him.

The guy lives in – I think he lives in, like, New Jersey.

So, I'll probably never see him.

But I'm having real scriptural accountability discussions with this guy.

But what a Christian is supposed to be like.

What's the impact upon – so, you've got your three hours, you know, that you're in VR.

Then you've got Discord.

And you're talking about discipling a guy who's in New Jersey who's just being a bonehead and ruining your Discord.

You know, so, my wonder – and you said you're on that, like, all, you know, all week long.

So, how much of your time doing discipleship happened – how much time is that over a week?

So, three hours on VR, but add up all the other time that you're investing in.

I don't know.

I mean, because – so, there is a personality type that – I mean, that's when you ask about personality types.

You probably do need – if someone's going to be doing the Discord – I mean, ideally, it would be great if you had a Discord pastor.

Like, that was just their whole job.

That would be great.

But for us, we're not there yet.

So, you have to have a personality that can multitask quickly.

Like, by God's grace, I'm just – I mean, you can see it's not just the caffeine.

I'm just a really hyper guy.

And so, I just – I'm quick.

I type really, really, really crazy fast.

I don't know – I took a class in high school back when they taught it on the typewriters, and I just got really good at it.

So, I can move quickly, respond quickly, and move on.

So, that does – so, yes, if you put somebody in there that's maybe a little slower on the typing, a slower processor – I'm a verbal processor.

So, I can just quickly respond.

And that can be bad.

But in this particular case, it's actually helpful because I can move on more quickly.

If you've got someone who's too slow on the – right?

They're just a process.

That will eat up their time dramatically.

So, I don't think I spend probably – if you add up all the times I'm responding – a few hours a week.

So, and to me, that's a willing – for me, it's a willing – it's a good sacrifice.

But I still have to minister to my in-real-life congregation too, so I've got to be careful.

But it's a personality and skill set.

So, just put in your person who's the most hyper, the most quick to respond, but yet hopefully not going to be a jerk.

And I don't know.

Is that – I wish I could help you there.

That is helpful, though.

Because, Stephen, you hear you say, yeah, I'd probably put in another few hours.

It still is.

It's time.

Still time.

I would love to have a digital pastor.

That's probably – we actually put some – we just voted on our budget on Sunday, and we actually have some money set aside because I think we like to – you know, where I can come in and just be on a teaching team.

We have a teaching team, but even more sporadic and have, like, that campus pastor who's just a digital shepherd.

Whole nine yards.

That would be pretty legit.

Richard, Jeff, Jason, you got any other questions?

I'm curious about building teams a little bit, Jason.

So, you know, people come into VR.

They're excited about what you're doing.

Hey, how can I help out?

I've heard both ways in the digital world.

Either our vetting goes way up on that if they're speaking on our behalf, or we're going to make that bottom shelf and they're going to come in.

What have you learned in VR?

If someone's championing or, you know, joining a volunteer team, representing you, what would your advice be on vetting?

Yeah.

So, you know, it depends on the role.

I mean, same thing with in real life.

So my counselors, I mean, I, like, hardcore vet them.

I mean, there's a lot of stuff that goes into that.

You know, my teaching team is primarily the pastors and elders, and so that's, you know, that's already – that one's easier.

So I don't just let anybody preach or teach.

Let's see.

So, you know, a welcome team, you know, that's obviously a little easier.

And really, we don't just immediately ask somebody to be on that.

We, you know, they've got to show some consistency of coming.

And we talk quite a bit in the VR, so you get to know kind of their personality.

There's one guy that comes, and he's pretty surly.

Like, he's got his real persnickety perspectives.

And I'm like, no, it's not a – no, no.

Because there's a lot of different people.

There's some people that have some gender identity, gender dysphoria type stuff.

And a guy like that, you know, nah.

So you just got to be careful.

But as far as, like, getting their doctrine all sound to be on a welcome team, I'm not too concerned about that.

There's not that – I mean, there's a prayer team.

That's more concerning.

But it's not like we've got – it's not a megachurch, right?

So, like, me and Nicole is my director of operations.

Tom, who teaches, and he's in real life, and I trust him.

Like, we can handle all that.

So that one's almost like it just was easy.

But, yeah, I guess it depends on scalability.

Like, if your VR church becomes, like, a megachurch, and I don't know if it's even possible because of the limitations on how many people can be in a facility at one time digitally.

I think there's some hard limits.

We've not come up against those limits.

I think we have an 80-limit capacity.

So we're half of that.

So we're fine.

DJ's a little bigger, but I think that he was able to figure out a replication situation.

These are details that if it gets to that, we can talk to you more, and DJ would be more helpful, where he can actually mirror the world, and people can be in another world but see him.

Kind of weird, but you're not going to have, you know, yeah, your volunteer teams aren't going to, you're not going to need as many volunteers as I'm guessing you guys probably have at a sizable church in real life.

So, but vetting, yeah, it just depends on the role, on how intense I vet them.

But, yeah, I'm pretty, I'm a little bit, probably a little loose, maybe too much on definitely a lot of entry level.

I'm kind of like, well, if they totally blow it up, we'll have to clean up the, you know, clean up the mess.

But I'm putting them in roles that I don't think that's going to, you're not going to blow up the church.

Yeah, that's good.

That's helpful.

Thanks.

Yeah.

Can I ask you, this is a little, a totally different, really, question, but in regards to VR, you've probably heard of people who are doing, or like NBA,

who will sell their seats along the, along the, you know, front row and everyone, you know, you have a hundred people who reserve that seat and watch the game.

Is, is there a VR platform where you can do that as well, where you can put a 360 camera in the front row of your church during a 9 a.m.

and people can go VR and watch your church from the front row?

So, there is, you can do that.

Now, the, the platform is currently in the VR.

They don't, it's not really wired for that.

Those, the ones that I mentioned, you can show, no, I actually, I actually take that back.

You could, I know still photography, you definitely can do a 360.

I have not seen anybody do a video, a live video 360.

I'm guessing it's possible, but there are still some limitations on all the platforms.

So, I don't know about that.

But I do want to.

Live church 2021.

The, the gears installed, COVID just slowed down execution.

They're going to start, life church.

Life church is doing that.

They're, they're going to start executing that in, in, in the future.

Now, but they will have, they probably are going to have their own.

They're not going to be on all space or VR chat with that.

It's probably going to be their own thing.

Coupled with that, one of the rollouts, I'm probably not allowed to say this,

but even CHOP, church online platform, they're rolling out to encompass a virtual reality, photo, video type of thing.

So, and by, by doing that, you know, you're going to get, you're going to get your church 99.

And, and, and I think that's really the difference between the, the photo, video, VR, and getting into like all VR.

The photo, video is going to help you get your 99.

The avatar world that Jason lives in is going to get you a whole other person.

It's going to get you more to those, those ones.

So it really does come down.

Life church, I don't know that their priority is to get down to that one level of what kind of the world that, that Jason's describing.

It's coming in 2021, whether or not that's the right thing for you and, and, and how you're trying to, to do ministry, you know, is, is up in the air.

But you will have options there next year.

Are you guys really talking more like AR stuff now at this point?

Well, AR, it would be a little bit different and, and really cool.

Like that's, I would love to, I would love to do that.

Like that's, that's a goal.

I saw Jeffrey, Jeff, you have a comment on that?

Cause AR is, it's a little bit different.

Yeah.

So augmented reality is I'm, I'm wearing glasses that are inserting information data layered in front of the world.

So I'm looking at a road.

I'm physically seeing the road turn right in the GPS.

The arrow is telling me to turn right.

There's two different types of virtual reality.

One is going to be more cartoon avatar vector based where it's the drawings of avatars in these, in these made up elaborate worlds.

The second one is more in line with like, okay, I'm going to put a 360 camera in the room and we're going to allow people to see that camera.

And so, I mean, the, the, uh, illustration of basketball, I've seen churches do this where they put it in the, in the, you know, row five.

So you're seeing in between people.

And as the audience member looks around, they're experiencing everything that's happening in that, in that venue.

Um, the early traction on that has been that that's more getting people that are already engaged into the church and giving them a, a unique experience.

Um, those types of experiences are not as thick in the community as necessarily the avatar world.

It's more of, let me come, my daughter the other day, she watched, um, uh, Russian Bolshoi, whatever, the Russian ballerina crew do, um, Nutcracker.

Uh, to create experience.

My daughter is not engaging in community and is not looking to have long conversations.

She just wanted to go see the show.

And so that's really what you're going to get with this photo video realism type of, uh, VR.

That's good.

That's good summary.

Yeah.

Eight.

One thing that we're thinking with AR and I don't know when, when this will come or how I just depends on the technology.

Technology is there, but it's just a matter of figuring out how to merge that within real life.

Because so we were, uh, one of the things that's distinctive about us is that we've got our in real life congregation and this VR campus and they're actually, we, we consider them together.

And so for the, the baptisms we had, so we had our, uh, our annual business meeting at the same time in the afternoon as we have our VR, uh, church campus service.

So we actually showed, we, we show, um, we stream our services on Twitch.

And so we displayed the Twitch feed of the baptisms in our in real life congregation.

And so they actually got to, you know, see me up there in VR baptizing these two new brothers and, and actually we caught some footage.

Somebody caught some, it was really cool.

You're watching this, uh, this screen with the, uh, the Twitch feed.

And then you hear all these people clapping from the in real life church.

So right now that's where that's about as augmented as we can get.

Uh, but that's cool to me.

And I would love to get to a point where it's possible that the two congregations can be at the same time and somehow interface with one another.

So, uh, you could actually, if you had, if you had the technology and you had the glasses, again, all that's, there's, there's a cost part of that, but they could see an avatar, somebody that's part of their congregation in the VR right next to them, sitting next to them, augmented, sort of like Pokemon, Pokemon go, uh, and vice versa.

So then there'll also be a camera where the, uh, the VR person can, can recognize that he's sitting next to an in real life brother and sister.

So anyway, those are kind of dreams.

I think that could happen.

I don't know, Jeff, you, you would know better if that's even a possibility, but.

Let's see how 5G goes and then the developers will have fun after that.

Hope that's been helpful.

I don't know if I get any answers to your questions, but.

Good.

You, you answered a ton.

I, I appreciate all of this.

From.

Yeah.

Thanks guys.

Any help you ever, if you ever just want to chat again, or if you have questions, you can email me, discord me, PM me, whatever, DM me.

Are you guys, anybody on discord?

I'm just curious.

Okay.

Yeah.

We'd love for you to join the virtual ministry group server and also our cornerstone server.

You can kind of, you know, see what's going on there.

So.

Thank you, Jeff, for setting this up.

Jason.

Thanks, Jeff.

Appreciate it guys.

Yeah.

My, my pleasure.

I'm sure there'll be more conversations going on, but there's certainly a lot for you guys to process with today.

Jason, man, thanks for jumping in once again.

Love, love what you're, love what you're doing.

Keep, keep pushing.

Even yesterday I was, I was speaking to, uh, exponential, um, or a conference for exponential was talking about what you guys are doing out of, at a cornerstone.

So phenomenal.

Keep, keep doing it.

And, uh, we'll keep singing praises and hopefully changing some culture.

So, Hey, Josh, Richard, uh, Jason, man, I feel like I haven't seen you in a while.

Hope, hope things are going good.

Uh, Jeff, always good to, to catch up with you on.

If there's anything else y'all need, just let me know.