EP116: Collin Jones & Owning Your Platform

Hey, we're going to get you to that podcast in one second, but before we get there, I, Jeff Reed, the Church Digital, Stadia Church Planning, I wanted to have a conversation with you, churches that are out there.

One of the greatest things I arguably think that I've done in my life, other than married and kids, okay, that aside, one of the greatest ministry things I've ever done is this idea of the fidgetal learning communities that we are offering through Stadia Church Planning.

We want to help you, we want to help your church learn to thrive, grow, and multiply fidgetally, physically, as well as digitally.

We've seen about 200 churches go through this already, and it's been a phenomenal result of it.

Culture is changing within these churches.

They're understanding what it is to thrive.

They're understanding how to grow people, how to grow their church, even in the midst of this COVID, not COVID, wherever we are in the season.

And they're even starting to understand what it means to multiply in fidgetal space.

There's no secret sauce to doing a digital strategy.

There's no secret sauce to doing a fidgetal strategy.

There's no secret sauce to making your church thrive, grow, and multiply.

It takes work.

I'm not going to lie.

But through the framework, through the questions, through the learning communities, we connect you with churches.

We give you some content.

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For more information, check out stadiachurchplanning.org slash fidgetal.

Stadiachurchplanning.org slash fidgetal.

P-H-Y-G-I-T-A-L.

All right.

Hey, that's it.

We're going to get you back to that episode right now.

All right, church.

This is going to be an interesting conversation today.

We're going to get into DeLoreans.

We're going to be very future-minded.

We're going to be looking at what's to come.

Hey, Jeff here with the Church at Digital Podcast.

Once again, it's powered by Stadia Church Planting.

Love working with this organization.

Just celebrated my one-year anniversary just recently, and it has been awesome helping churches and church plants go fidgetal, plant digital-only expressions of church.

We're going to be talking more about that in the coming weeks, but love what's happening and the innovation that we're seeing out of Stadia here today, and I love what's coming down the road.

Hey, so speaking of coming down the road, let's pivot here, and let's talk about this episode.

Here's where we are, church.

Just if we really look at the reality of the situation, we are creating strategies in real time for our churches to digital ministry effectively.

And we're utilizing it on borrowed platforms like YouTube, on borrowed platforms like Facebook, like most of social media.

Now, I'm saying borrowed, and what I essentially mean by that is, church, we don't own the property that we're doing the ministry on, at least in the digital perspective.

We don't own YouTube.

We don't control YouTube.

We don't control Facebook.

It's interesting, with Facebook, everything's with an algorithm.

So we even post something up there, and the people who are following us may or may not see it based upon how the algorithm behaves.

And it's interesting, in this COVID season, even paralleling it a little bit here, the physical multi-site churches, physical multi-site churches.

I was at a church that actually launched a multi-site church two, three, four months before COVID hit.

And then when COVID swept through, the landlord that we were renting the property from for that multi-site to exist, he ripped up the lease and said, it's no longer valid.

You're not welcome here.

It was the right decision, mind you.

But what was interesting was, we didn't have, the church didn't have a choice in that situation.

We no longer have the option, the opportunity to do ministry in that space.

And my fear is, church, and hear me, I don't want to be like the controversial guy.

I'm not trying to like be all prophetic or anything like that, gloom and doom.

But I think there's a time coming when we, the church, we're not going to be able to do the ministry on the Facebooks, on YouTube maybe even.

And I think there's an importance here, really, if we are looking future-minded at where, at least where I think culture is going and how it intersects with, you know, the church.

I think it's important that we own our platforms, or at least that we have understanding towards owning those platforms.

And so where we're broadcasting to, where we're connecting with, it's great that we're able to utilize the Facebooks and the YouTubes.

And I don't want to give away the conversation, but I think it's important that we have some other hurdles.

We have some other options in place.

Otherwise, that mad dash of March 2020, when everybody's trying to figure out how to broadcast online, I really think that's coming again.

When we're trying to figure out how to broadcast online, when the Facebooks and the YouTubes and some of those other organizations, you know, won't let us broadcast on their platforms.

Now, I get it. I probably sound like a religious nutjob, a zealot, you know, some of those things.

And honestly, if you know me, hopefully, you know I'm not.

My track record, I think, would speak to that.

But I think it's still something that we should be looking at and aware of and planning for how to overcome these.

And so this is what the conversation is.

We're bringing in Colin Jones, who's president and CEO of Resi, used to be living as one.

And so Colin has been a great friend and supporter of the Church Digital over the years.

And when I'm thinking about, hey, how do we own our platform, Colin's the first guy that came to mind, just because that's the heart of how he's building and designing his company, Resi.

We're also bringing in Ray DeArmis, digital pastor over at Christ Fellowship Miami, and co-host once again.

Jeff with the Church Digital, myself, and Stadia Church Planning.

In a conversation that I'm simply calling, owning your platform.

Okay, everybody.

Here you go.

You know, even just kind of to open up, you've transitioned from living as one to Resi.

Maybe why?

How has that transition gone?

You know, what has it been like kind of transitioning the company, the marketing, all that shifting over towards the different approach?

Yeah, it's been great.

You know, we had a lot of credibility issues when we're just like a faith-branded company.

That now are removed, which is great because we have the world's best video engineers, but that wasn't seen in the front because most times, faith companies, they really don't spend enough on engineering, right?

Because they don't have the resources.

And Resi has always been someone, you know, we're the only mainstreaming writer that hasn't gone down during Corona because we have all of these insane, you know, developers and standards that we set with that because of our mission, right?

So our mission is very much the same.

It's the John 17.

We're, you know, we're doing communications worldwide, right?

With millions and millions and millions of viewers.

We're now the largest streamer to Facebook and by Watchmen, it's a church online platform and all of those things.

And so now it's about stewarding the audience.

And so like our main mission was to unite the global church.

It still is today.

We just believe the best way to do that is by having a lot of corporate customers as well.

However, the kind of the heart of the company hasn't changed at all.

And so, yeah, it's only been a good thing.

I think, you know, the people kind of expected it and were like, this probably should have happened 10 years ago or two years ago.

And which Jeff has been telling me that we should probably do that, you know, for a long time too.

Living as one definitely felt like that dating service, right?

You know, it's like this completely, oh, you do video streams.

Oh, that's nice.

And I actually, and I want to give testimony here and Colin hasn't paid me to say this.

We, on a side, I help some churches here in South Florida area figure out how to do broadcasting, the technical aspects.

And I've got guys that kind of serve along with me, just serving the church.

And so there's one particular church that maybe eight, nine months ago in the middle of COVID season asked for a video upgrade.

And so we went in there, helped them with the technical aspects and designed the system for them.

But one of the things that we did, we wanted to upgrade them from the system they were using to living as one.

Like, I don't think it was resi at the point.

It was the living as one system, same thing.

And they were like, no, we want to cut budget.

We're okay with what we have.

And true testimony here.

I specifically said to the lead pastor, you will come back around in six months and you will say, hey, yeah, we do want to go ahead and get the resi in here.

And so it was funny.

It was almost five, six months later, that church did call back around and said, hey, we do want to upgrade.

We have had failures.

And so the product stability of what's coming out of resi is phenomenal.

So super excited of what they're doing and the friendship that we've had with Colin over the years.

Because it's right, like, man, the stability of it has been phenomenal in this season where lots of other systems are failing and crashing under the weight of just all the traffic of the church season.

Like, the investment of resi has been solid.

All right, so commercial over.

Let's segue into this.

So, like, a lot of my concern here with the conversation, I'm trying to even figure out how to start this.

But when I look at the potential of what we're, at least what we're currently doing with Church Online, I get this feeling that we're utilizing a lot of borrowed platforms.

Platforms that we don't necessarily have control over.

And this may be a good thing.

In some contexts, it may be a bad thing.

And this is really one to explore.

Like, we're broadcasting on Facebook.

But, you know, and Ray struggles with this all the time.

The lead communicator wants to show some sort of a movie clip or a clip of a music video that Facebook's going to, you know, say, the DRM's going to say, no, you don't have the ability to do that.

And it's cut.

He's blacklisted.

And if he does it too many times, he's, like, not allowed to go on.

The funny thing is, like, Ray and Ray's leadership, they want to pay for the rights to do it.

It's not like they don't want to pay for it.

There's just, there's no option too.

And you can say same things about YouTube.

I think YouTube's more insert commercials friendly as opposed to the other.

But both of them kind of control what's happening.

Even in context of who has accessibility to watch it, the algorithms may or may not be fighting against you.

And really, we, the church, we've lost control over a lot of these things.

And so, man, I'm even struggling a little bit as I see churches who have pivoted.

Like, we went from 10% to, like, 70% of churches are broadcasting online now.

But we're doing so on platforms that we don't control.

I mean, what are some other kind of negativity?

What are some struggles, challenges with broadcasting our services on these borrowed platforms?

But yeah, and the question really is twofold.

You know, you've got your own audience to steward, right?

And you've got, you know, obviously, you're a church already and you have people that are attending, right?

For the majority of people listening.

And you're sending them to these platforms, right?

And so then there's that.

And then there's also the standpoint of the growth story.

There's all these people that you want to reach that are on the internet, right?

A lot of them are on social media.

A lot of them are Googling.

A lot of them, you know, there's all of these kind of different destinations, right?

And so when we, I think more so the question becomes, what is our strategy for long-term retention and growth, right?

And then how do we let, you know, how these platforms see the world and how we see the world and how do we interact with that and make strategic decisions out of that?

So I think there's a lot to that question.

Like the first one is, you know, I think we've had a ton of questions from it since, you know, Parler got taken down, right?

And it wasn't about the politics of it or anything like that.

It was, I think, kind of eye-opening and like, whoa, we could be taken down, right?

Like where we built our entire audience from, in the snap of a finger, we could have zero, right?

Because it's not, we don't own it.

It's not our platform.

And it's not even the social media.

It's, you know, AWS.

So like the, which is like why Parler is still not up today, right?

And so they don't even have an app store.

It was the app stores, it was the CDN, you know, it was the, which CDN is Content Delivery

Network, it's who actually posts their content.

So there's, there's wires and servers behind all of this stuff that we're doing today.

And there's only a few of those providers in the world that house most of the data going

through the internet.

AWS being probably the biggest one, or definitely the biggest one, they took them down as well.

So it wasn't only, you know, Google and, you know, all of those, you know, Android

and then, you know, Apple, but it was also the CDN providers behind that.

And I think some Russian companies, which is awkward.

But so if we think about, you know, Facebook, YouTube, those are, you know, Instagram, where

do people stream their messages and where's content from?

What we always have encouraged churches to do is build your own experience online, right?

With things like church online platform and, you know, Resi powering that because Resi is

a faith company.

We're actually going multi-clied now because of this problem, right?

Of like, well, we won't, if a CDN takes us down, it won't affect us.

Who cares?

And so, however, like streams still to the social medias, obviously there's a ton of benefit

from that.

Just try to transfer your audience to something that you own.

And you have the two competing ideas that me and Ray and Jeff talked about earlier, which

is probably a good thing that the next one is like, you know, do you want to own your

own audience or do you want to reach people?

And I think there's a way to do both really well, but that's kind of the fight here of,

you know, normally you have the triangle of you can only pick two.

This is like, you know, you have two, you can probably do a hybrid of them, but that's

the rub is like, Hey, I want to be on YouTube.

I want to be where all the people are.

I want to be on Facebook.

I want to be on Instagram where all the people are, right?

I need to grow.

But where do you sustain your audience?

And I think that can be different.

That's very helpful, Colin.

Now, a quick question for both of you.

Is this something new or has this always been the case?

You know what I'm saying?

With utilizing somebody else's platform.

Because I, you know, for, for my aunts and uncles and for family members that are new

to tech that, you know, they're all in an uproar and they're like, Hey, you know, we

feel like this is wrong.

And I'm like, welcome to me.

It doesn't feel so new.

So give me some of your perspectives on this in terms of how platforms use the user term

agreements, you know, against their own users in some ways.

Sure.

Yeah.

And you really have to think about, you know, you have the user agreements and you have what

their, you know, PR, right?

So if you're a social media company, if you're a CDN, the way that you think about the world

is whatever makes me the most money for my shareholders long-term, right?

And so no matter what mission statement that they have, that's what it is, right?

And so if you think about it from a Facebook, YouTube, Vimeo, any streaming company provider

out there, you've got to ask the question, first of all, what is their motivation high

level, right?

And it's to make the most money over the long period of time, right?

For all of those organizations, right?

And then you've got to ask, will it ever be at odds with what I'm doing, right?

And so with Facebook and YouTube, if Parler asked that question, right?

Or any of those other kind of Google, et cetera, basically what Facebook and YouTube decided

was that we will make less, we will make more money over time because of the PR problems

by taking them down, right?

And there's also some safety and all that, that I don't, you know, no arguing about, right?

That they argued for.

But essentially, that's what these platforms are asking the question of every day.

Is do I make more money by, you know, how they make money is driven by public perception,

right?

And public usage.

And so do I have more customers that I would gain or keep from taking these people down than

I would lose from taking them down, right?

And that's the question that they're asking.

And so I think like, and then you have the user agreements that back that up, right?

Basically, the way that the user agreements are written, people can take you down for anything.

Anything they deem hateful, it's very subjective.

It's the same way with, you know, Facebook's user agreement, Vimeo's, you know, any different

company.

It's very scary to read that stuff because there's no assurance, no assurances, right?

Zero.

It's basically, you know, that problem that we talked to, if they think that for some reason

they can make more money by taking it down, they will.

And, and the user agreements are their support to that.

And yeah, are very scary to read.

We've had a lot of people, you know, comment on the user agreements and the different things

that, you know, we, nobody ever reads them anymore.

And what you're agreeing to is quite big.

And you had an experience, you know, that you just talked about is in person.

But, you know, we're, the user agreement saved your, your world, right?

And so they're, they're actually pretty important things.

Yeah.

That's absolutely, that's absolutely the case.

So for those of you who don't know, I was, Colin and I were having a conversation before

we started recording the podcast.

And we were, we were kind of talking about how this kind of thing happened.

I, before I became the online pastor at Christ Fellowship, I launched a physical campus and

we rented a government owned building and, you know, we were going through the manager.

We didn't think anything of it until the local municipal government got wind of the fact

that a church was meeting in one of their facilities and, and they didn't like that.

And so it's not that they were trying to toss us, but they turned down other religious

organizations for some of their other facilities.

And so they wanted to revisit our deal.

And if it weren't for the manager of that particular facility, we might have been gone.

Our campus, which is still meeting there, by the way, might have been gone.

And we have a very unique deal that says, and it's in the, it's in the fine print of the

con of the contract that only Christ Fellowship can rent from this particular facility as a

result of all this.

Because we were grandfathered in by God's grace and God's grace alone, because it would have

been very easy and they would have been within their right.

We don't own the facility.

It's their facility, but because it's a very public facility, much in the same way as YouTube

and Facebook are very public platforms.

It enabled us to reach a bunch of people that we normally wouldn't reach having, being inside

a church building that's separate.

You know, we're talking about a theater that's there on a very public avenue, a very public

street in the midst of Miami.

And so it enabled us evangelistically to reach people that we would have never reached before,

but at the same time, because it's not owned, because it wasn't property of Christ Fellowship,

we would have been subject to whatever the owner deems of us.

Right.

Exactly.

And the government was saying, hey, wait, it's not worth the risk.

The gain of this however many thousand dollars a month is not worth the risk of the public

perception.

So then they came back to you and said, hey, you got to get out of here.

And then the contract saved you.

Right.

Absolutely.

And I think, you know, you have people on different sides of the issue.

I think that, you know, the thing that got it, you know, you have Christians that, you

know, would say that, you know, there was no hate speech going on and therefore they shouldn't

have been taken down.

Right.

And then you have Christians that say there was hate speech going on.

That's why they took them down.

I shouldn't be worried about censorship.

And then you have, you know, non-believers say these crazy Christians, you know, they were

doing some crazy stuff and then they, you know, why would they be worried about

that?

And it really turns them off.

Right.

And so I think it's a divisive issue in our world of this censorship deal.

And, you know, I think in general, you know, you have the churches that you like, don't

care about censorship at all, care about reaching people, which I think is a really good thing.

And they probably should care a little bit more about censorship.

And then you have just because, you know, we want to keep their audience over time.

Right.

Make sure that they never have potential to do that because of maybe what Christianity on

the other side does.

Right.

Because it's still the same Christianity as the world perceives it.

And then we have people on the other side of the boat that, you know, are, you know,

scared that, you know, what they could potentially say or do or whatever could be construed as

hateful or, you know, whatever it's written in their master user agreement that they would

actually be taken down at some point.

Right.

And I think you have those two kind of buckets.

And so, yeah, Jeff, we'd love to get your perspective as you're thinking on online.

Obviously, you have, you know, tons of different churches that you relate with, and you're helping

them do content online and so many different platforms.

Right.

And so kind of what point of the organization do you think like, hey, I'm planning to diversify

my platforms or like, you know, obviously for a big church, that's obvious.

Right.

But for a smaller one that's starting, you know, what would you say in like diversification

of platforms or how to manage their audience?

Yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't think it's time to abandon ship on the, on the rented platforms

and hear me like the, the Facebook has a huge win utilizing it, but it's understanding the

purpose of that platform and maybe utilizing it in a different way.

Broadcasting a 70 minute service on Facebook is probably not going to get you the, the end

game result of, of getting your, getting in front of ones, getting in front of people who

are, are called to Christ having that shareable product, um, which is, I think the strength

of, of what Facebook could be.

And so, um, utilizing it for its strengths, uh, I think what would be a plus now you're,

you're 99, uh, the people who are loyal to your church right now, they are watching the

services on Facebook.

Um, but now like in, in Ray's situation where he's trying to show a clip of, of a video,

or maybe we're concerned about censorship or, or getting removed from those platforms down

the road and not being able to communicate with our 99, which was similar to what was happening

March, 2020, where churches were afraid they weren't going to be able to effectively communicate

with the 99, you know, it's, let's have a separate platform that we control more aggressively that,

that does that.

And, and so that's where I look at like what, what Rezzy is offering, linking in with the

church online platform.

And we're seeing some other solutions other than church online come up.

Alter Live is an incredible resource that, that we've been, Stadia, we've been working more

closely with and doing some experiments with, you know, I know Colin and the Rezzy guys have

been working, uh, with them as well.

And so there are opportunities here, I think to, to own your digital house, so to speak,

where you control what's happening there.

Um, you know, and, and the good thing about like, uh, church online platform, the good thing

about Alter Live is, is that those platforms are more designed to get people connected into

discipleship, get people connected into, into ministry, get people connected into whatever

the next step is for the church.

And so it's utilizing Facebook for its strength of, of evangelism, of getting out in front of

people, but not letting Facebook be the only thing.

Like for me, when, when a church says, the only thing I do is broadcast on Facebook, I'm

fearful for them because for me, they're putting all the eggs into that one basket.

Assuming that Facebook as the big tech organization is going to play fair and maybe they will for

a season, but there's a day where they're not, there's a day where something's going to

change, whether it's nefarious or they're just doing what they think is best for their

organization.

And because we don't have any control over that platform, we, the church is going to be

stuck.

And I would much rather, you know, okay.

Yeah.

So I'm using Facebook for, uh, evangelism purposes for getting content in front of others.

I would rather just have to adjust that small part of my strategy.

Okay.

I need to figure out a better way to do evangelism.

By the way, there are better ways to do evangelism digitally.

I just need to figure out that little piece better instead of, oh my gosh, I'm back at

square one.

It's back like February, 2020, where I have no digital infrastructure because Facebook took

it all away from me.

So that, I mean, that's the heart is sort of this like diversification in this season

and trying to figure out how to get, um, the different platforms to work towards the

strategy.

What do you guys think about that?

Yeah.

And I'm happy to share what some of our customers are doing that I think is really effective.

And Ray talked about this earlier.

Is this, is this a new problem, right?

Is this, is this because censorship and the stuff, or is this problem always been there

for other reasons, right?

And like, you know, you should diversify your platforms or everything else.

It's just like, you know, investment strategy.

You want to diversify all over Proverbs, right?

Diversify.

Don't keep eggs in one basket.

We get a lot of pushback from the really small churches that are just streaming OBS to Facebook

or doing so, even though they have hardly any viewers compared to their church size, um,

from like the 70 bucks a month that it costs, you know, to have your own stream on church

online platform or altar live or your website or any of those other platforms, you know,

brush fire, um, all great platforms and altar lives a great one too.

And, um, when you think about that, you know, like how much do you spend in the in-person

environment to have people come to your own building, right?

Like you're not sending them to a Chick-fil-A on a Sunday morning when, you know, um, if,

or I should say McDonald's, I shouldn't use that because they're closed on Sundays where

they can kick you out anytime, um, or for just because that, you know, something happened,

right?

Like you're sending them to a place that you want to control the experience of, right?

And so I think we talked about, you know, the censorship stuff and the worries of Facebook

and YouTube taking it down.

However, we haven't talked about what's most beneficial strategically, right?

And so like what we've always communicated to people to do is say Facebook and YouTube are really

great, but their, their, um, whole monetization platform is built on keeping people on their

platform after your service.

And they know, you guys have all watched, you know, the social dilemma that they have

to change your attention very frequently to keep you on the platform, right?

And so you're sending people to Facebook, you're sending people to YouTube, they're getting

a ton of negative distractions, right?

They're getting a ton of people commenting on their Facebook group, people commenting on

this, people liking X, people watching these videos, um, scrolling, same thing with YouTube,

all of these other videos, right?

There's links everywhere for other stuff.

There's a search bar that doesn't have your church's content in it at all, right?

It's got everything else because they know in order to make more money, they've got to keep

you on their platform long-term.

And they know that they have to change on Facebook.

They have to change your attention every 15 to two minutes, right?

15 seconds to two minutes.

They've got to change it, change it, change it.

So you keep giving, building the minutes, you know, and YouTube's the same way, it's longer.

But if you look at average watch times across the platform, and this has been true 10 years

ago, right?

Facebook, you know, I've never seen higher than like three minutes for a church, right?

It's like people are watching for a minute on average.

So someone will say like, hey, I've got 15,000 people viewing.

Yeah, but they each watched, you know, a minute.

So how do you measure?

That's great for marketing, but those people aren't attending your service, right?

And then YouTube's the same story, right?

It has a little bit average higher watch time.

It's got typically between 10 and 20 minutes, which is pretty, which is a long time.

But on your page, like if you do altar live or church online platform, your website, it's

45 plus, right?

They're watching like 80% of the service.

So if you can convert those people from those different audiences, Instagram, Facebook,

YouTube to that, that's the one.

So we have a lot of churches that stream the first however long of the message to Facebook

and they cut off, say watch my site or YouTube.

So they get the benefit, right?

Or they have their pastor record something on Instagram live saying, hey, we're streaming live

right now here, you know, please share this with other people.

So they get the sharing benefit.

Same thing with Facebook and YouTube, but watch on my site, right?

Like come to our thing where we have, you know, and you can join community groups.

You can talk with people.

You can, you know, that way they have positive distractions like giving, join a community

group.

Things that will actually impact their life for the better rather than, you know, their

aunt's commenting on their photo or, you know, the YouTube video that they're interested

in.

Right?

I think there's an opportunity here to even revisit what that outward facing video, you're

right.

Like have the pastor doing that Facebook thing where I'm not worried about DRM.

I'm not worried about, and I can play to the strengths of the platform like, like you're

alluding to where, hey, people are only going to watch 30 seconds of this video.

Let's make the 30 seconds of the video work.

I'm working with the strengths of the platform and using that front door to onboard them into

the service wherever it's at.

And if that's the approach, now I can have numerous, like dozens of frontward facing onboarding

opportunities.

Hey, let's, I mean, this is crazy.

I've been spending some time the past couple of weeks working with Clubhouse.

Let's figure out how to turn Clubhouse into a front door to onboard people into a church

service.

I have no idea how to do that.

I'm just talking out loud, but there's an opportunity as new things open up, don't look

at, start thinking above the funnel, maybe approach here.

Don't look at the church service as the top of the funnel digitally.

Let's try to figure out how to work above there, connect with people, and then drive them into

the church service that's on your digital platform, on your property, as opposed to borrowed from

somebody else where you don't control it.

Yeah, there's lots of things here, right?

So first, as a side note, like Jeff talked about DRM.

What we started doing is we started cutting movie clips altogether and inserting a slide

of the clip and just like explaining it for our audience so that we don't get taken off

of a platform.

So for those of you churches that are still suffering through, man, we want to do at the

movies or our pastor is just adamant about, you know, putting a clip in or whatever else,

talk to him about the possibility of just inserting a slide so that your live audience can still

enjoy the clip, but that your online audience, it's not as bad.

It's not as good.

I'm going to start off there.

It's not on your website too.

So you can have different streams, you know, where you're streaming it to the website, but

so you can say, hey, watch on the website if you want to see the clip.

That's exactly right.

But the other thing, and I think Colin alluded to this really well, is you have to play to

the platform's strengths.

You really have to understand what the platform is good at.

And then from there, allow that to drive people from content.

We've talked about this a lot on this show.

Go from content to community.

Like it can't just be about engaging with the content.

So, you know, if it is Facebook, you know, and YouTube is your video server, then leverage

YouTube video chapters.

They're there.

You can take like a small clip of the message.

Elevation does this really well with their swipe up feature.

You can do this with Facebook and just have a link right there in the video and say,

hey, click here for the full message.

And it'll take them right to the same spot to pick up where they left off on in the midst

of the message.

And they can continue from there to the end.

They don't need your introductory story.

They don't need your illustration.

They were already, you know, wrapped into whatever point you were making with that one clip.

And that's a good way to use one platform to link to another platform to just kind of

absorb them in.

Or even better, if you're doing what Colin and Jeff were talking about, drive them to

your archive.

Get them to binge.

Get, you know, we binge watch so much content now.

Just give them the full series right there and say, yeah, this is part of chapter two of

this series.

Keep going.

Keep watching this stuff.

You're already here.

Leverage that to your capability as much as possible to try and draw them in.

Because every platform has its own individual strength, but they're not really meant to be

a do-all.

Are they, Colin?

Or am I overthinking this?

Oh, yeah.

And I think there's also...

Yeah, exactly what you said.

I 100% agree with.

There's also the demographics of the different platforms, right?

And so there's not only exactly what you said, which is every platform has a purpose.

Like if you think about, you know, everyone's going to watch your sermon on a minute.

You know, that's a scary thought for most pastors, right?

Because at any minute that they could come in, they're like, wow, they could really misconstrue

something that I said and then never come back, right?

And be turned off from Christ Fellowship or Life.Church or whatever it is, right?

That's a scary thought.

And so like to put your whole service, you know, on platforms where people only watch

for a minute or 15 minutes or whatever, that's a big risk too, right?

It's not necessarily an acquisition strategy, right?

Like if you want to acquire more, you know, people, which is evangelism, but in marketing

terms, if you want to acquire more views, right, which is people that don't know Christ,

people that are struggling or whatever, right?

Is that the best strategy?

Demographically, it's true too, you know, Facebook, hardly any young people are going

to watch your live stream on Facebook, right?

Hardly any males are going to watch your stream on Facebook, right?

On YouTube, hardly any females are going to watch your stream.

It's mostly male, right?

And so, you know, churches normally have this, hey, I'm going to try to trend towards this

audience, right?

And so that's why YouTube has been so popular amongst the biggest churches is not only do they

have a lot of viewership and people that come to watch content like that.

But the same thing is true is like, hey, you know, that's only reaching a certain demographic

with exactly what, you know, Ray and Jeff both alluded to is the platforms have a purpose,

right?

So YouTube is much better at the five to 10 minute clip on an exact topic, right?

So what if you did that and then said, learn more about it on my website?

We're live right now, right?

We're streaming live, right?

And so like, if you can have your pastor kind of record these, you know, wherever the biggest

audience is, and for those things to trend and go big, and there are some exceptions.

So I should say that like, you know, like people have been really successful doing campus specific

or kind of group specific Facebook groups, or, you know, like the biggest churches like

Bethel and Red Rocks and Elevation and Hillsong do great on YouTube because then they can trend,

right?

So an argument for them, say, I'm going to send my congregation to there so that they

can trend so that I'll get hundreds of thousands of views, right?

Where I really only get 50,000 or whatever.

But you really have to be a certain size to do that.

And the question still comes with that is like, what's your long term strategy?

Sure, those people, hundreds of thousands of people are watching on YouTube.

How does that impact your funnel, right?

So what are you funneling them towards?

You probably don't want to just funnel them to more YouTube videos because they're not going

to be watching your content at all, right?

It's so many negative distractions.

So, yeah, I totally agree with both of what you guys said and demographics of the part

two.

Yeah.

By the way, let me just totally do another commercial here.

Like, this is all the stuff that we impact in Stadia's digital learning communities.

Developing that funnel, understanding the platforms.

And so if you're listening to this, forgive the commercial, and we'll return to regular programming

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or I think I know what they're talking about, I need help taking these steps.

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Commercial over.

Let's get back to where we were.

I would love to add to that commercial.

We've had churches that have gone through that, that have taken their audience from crazy

different numbers.

And a lot of them start using Resi as well and part of that process because they are using

something crappy right now that's not helping them on the digital perspective.

But I mean, that program is so helpful.

And Jeff has been doing online church for so long that if you're struggling with this or

want to get more viewers online, want to impact more people, I'd absolutely recommend it.

We've seen awesome results from our customers.

Awesome.

Love that.

Having that strategy is so important though, especially moving forward.

And this is not even, and listen, I can have the conversation fighting for a digital only

expression of church that does not have a physical footprint.

And if you've listened to the podcast, you've heard me have that conversation.

I'm not having that conversation today.

If you are in the physical building, it is so important for you to even have that digital

strategy moving forward and wrestle with some of this stuff, have understanding of what

the platforms are.

And if you are, if you are the digital guy in a church that's surrounded by physical minded

people, fight, cheer on, celebrate, don't give this up because it's so important moving

forward.

Let them see, let them understand.

I know I personally, I'm telling my own story here.

There have been seasons where I've been discouraged, where I've been frustrated, where I've been

angry, where maybe I internalized it a little too much.

But you need to continue on because what you are trying to do is so vital for the future of

the church.

Continue on in that struggle with helping them understand.

Maybe fight's not the right word.

I may take back the word fight, but don't give up that struggle.

Ray, you like that word fight.

What do you, I mean, listen, we've talked about this.

CF is not a digital first church by any stretch, you know, and with my time there, with Ray

times there, I don't want to call out CF on that, but what do you think in here?

Well, I mean, we're trying to get more in that direction, right?

And so, you know, the thought of hybrid church, I think has a lot of people inspired or physical

church, as we call it on this show, is kind of where a lot of folks want to go.

But it's so hard to break the paradigm of what happens in the room is what matters most.

And it's funny because I've heard stories, and you've heard stories, Jeff, of, you know,

of how Charles Stanley's church understood what happens in those cameras impacts more

people than what happens in the room.

And this is before the age of the internet, because they were doing TV ministry and they

were understanding, oh, wait a minute, we have the greatest possibility for reaching people

for Jesus just by looking into that camera.

And so it's funny how that doesn't even have to be a new thing.

It's just, it's so hard because we invest so much in our physical structures and our physical

buildings, and they cost a lot more, right?

And Colin, talk about that, like the cost of what happens in the room versus what happens

digitally and how churches struggle through that.

Why is that such a tough tension to break?

Yeah, we're actually, so we did a digital campaign at our church where we raised money just

for digital.

And it was so funny because, and we had to put like a physical component in it.

And, you know, like we would, we had this really awesome volunteer at our church who probably

works 20 hours a week.

And he was, he's all these Fortune 500, he owns all the digital at all these Fortune 500

companies, worked with the biggest companies in the world, helping them reach people online,

right?

And who, how do we help the digital age, right?

How do we take advantage of it?

And he asked our pastors, he was like, hey, if I told you, you know, hey, we're going

to, I need $2 million to do this building, to do this campus.

And in, you know, three years, we're going to have 800 people in it, right?

Then, you know, would you do that?

And I'm like, absolutely, that'd be amazing.

And he was like, you know, if I, if I, okay, then told you, hey, I'm going to spend a million

dollars, then we're going to have 800 more people viewing online every week.

Would you do that?

And they were like, you know, and it's, it's, you know, the money difference that you think

about putting online, just because of the paradigms that we have around it, are, you know, dollar

for dollar, like online is exponentially, right, has a much higher return than a physical campus,

right?

But because we have the paradigms, and it's kind of funny, because I remember sitting in

so many, I don't know how many sessions we've done together, Jeff, with different things,

but like each one before Corona, you know, obviously, these are all before Corona, I haven't

done any in-person sessions since Corona.

And, and we would have people on every topic, like really fight against us with the online

thing, especially fighting against Jeff, because I was just the tech guy.

And Jeff was the guy.

Yeah, I'm the pastor.

Everybody wants to fight Jeff.

Step off.

Come on, man.

Yeah, about, you know, theology online, why you shouldn't do it and what.

And then now no one does that, right?

I haven't had a conversation fighting someone theologically online forever.

I hope and pray that, you know, these churches that have gone online have seen the benefit

reaching people online and will not just stop doing it, right?

I don't think we'll have a lot of that.

I think that's only pretty archaic organizations.

You know, I think for most people it was, hey, we knew that this was probably a thing that

we needed to do and we need to go in there.

And Jeff is looking at me skeptically.

But I really, really hope we don't have many of those.

Yeah, I honestly, I think the next battlefield, I mean, you're right.

The churches who were fighting pre-COVID, I mean, I've told the story before where a pastor,

a friend of mine here in South Florida told me November, December 2019, Jeff, you are sinning

by helping people broadcast services online.

You are taking people out of the Bride of Christ, the church.

That was the conversation 2019, December.

March 2020, hey, Jeff, we're really in trouble over here.

Can you help us figure out how to stream?

Like that, it's a four-month sway.

COVID doesn't change theology.

Now, the conversation that I hear and that I'm literally like nationally recognized speakers

have had me on their podcasts and have derailed me over this one point.

Hey, yeah, digital is appropriate for now, for a season, but we need to get back.

And so I think there's a subculture at some point.

I don't know what percentage because I am seeing so many churches are learning lessons in this

season.

And so I'm not saying it's going to, the pendulum is going to swing back to the way that

it was February, 2020, but there's a percentage that are saying, hey, and I don't even know

that I want to die on this hill today, but like there's a percentage that's saying, hey,

we want to go back to February, 2020.

We want to go back to the way that it was and not acknowledge that digital piece.

We have Zoom fatigue.

We don't understand what digital discipleship actually means.

Digital is only for consuming a product and that's not what the church is.

And rather than building a disciple making vehicle in digital space, we just want to go back

and do it all in physical.

Ray's laughing at me just at the thought here.

I'm laughing only because, and we've quoted Ed Stetzer on this before in our podcast where

we build our churches like theaters on Sunday morning.

And so the reality is, is that whether we're showing up live for content consumption or whether

it's happening in our homes, if it's content consumption, it's just content consumption versus

being the body of Christ, right?

Which go to Acts 2, go to, you know, all of Paul's letters involve so much more than just

merely sitting around and listening to a guy talk for 30 to 45 minutes or two hours, depending

on your denomination, right?

So that's where we've got to, we kind of have to, you know, readjust our doxology and

our theology in terms of what does it actually mean to be part of the body of Christ and

the practice of it, you know?

And, and what does it mean to be a practicing believer in terms of community with that?

Because technology, you know, in my, at least, you know, what it's done for us during this

COVID season.

And when I say us, I don't just mean Christ fellowship, I mean, even in terms of my own

family, because I'm sure like many of you guys, you haven't been able to get together

physically with a lot of your family, but that doesn't change the fact that I, that I love

them.

I care about them and I still long to gather physically with them.

But if this is the best option I have, and, you know, even though, uh, you know, in many

cases I can regather with my parents and with my sister and my brother-in-law, um, physically

and we do, this is how we interact throughout the week often because this is our way

of keeping up with each other.

It's not just a family dinner once, once a week or once a month kind of thing.

We keep up with each other through technological means.

And then when we can gather physically, we do so.

Yeah.

And it's really, you know, you would think that we would learn to not go the way of the

Dota bird after all of the blockbuster stories, right?

Of, Hey, let's focus on stores, which is what we're doing right now.

Focusing, you know, or what that subculture is doing.

And I do agree.

I think it's a much smaller percentage than like we think, you know, cause a lot of people are

really invested in this.

You can't just screen, you know, I think the churches that haven't invested in it or just

screaming from a phone or doing a video and posting on the website are probably the ones

that, you know, are not seeing much fruit from it.

And then it's easy for them because they were very reluctant anyways.

And then now they're not seeing fruit from it.

So it's going to be easy for them to go back, right?

To the physical.

But I really do.

I mean, if you can ever be as sure as anything, I'm really sure that it'll go the way of the

blockbuster, right?

You will, you know, hang on to that store strategy and there'll be one left in Alaska, right?

And the problem is, is your church will get older and older and older, right?

And then it'll be hard.

Everybody that you want to reach is on the online space, right?

When we can't ignore the online space, it's the digital, it's a new frontier, right?

And it will always be, and it'll transform every day, right?

Things are changing and it's scary because of that, right?

And we get that, but it's our job as believers, you know, to reach people that haven't come.

And, and really you're asking your congregation, you know, a really hard thing to do too.

If you're telling them that they need to come every week, you know, people used to come to

church 3.4 times a month, it was 3.8.

Now they come 1.4 or whatever.

And it's like, you know, it's, it's not bad people, right?

It's the soccer mom that has to choose whether her kid's going to play soccer or not, right?

Or go to church on Sunday when like she volunteers during the week, goes to community group.

Like why is the theater on a Sunday important when she's experiencing community and doing all

that?

She'll watch online during her kid's soccer practice, right?

So like, why is that wrong?

And the, and coming together as believers, like in the, that was never, you know, I don't

think Jesus ever said that we can't come over the internet, right?

And it's like the, and I get that people, you know, it's being together and what you define

that as, but I really hope that people continue and whatever expression, it doesn't have to

be an online, you know, whatever it is, that we don't ignore digital, right?

And we don't go in the way of the blockbuster or the door or whatever, and that we actually

think about how Jesus would express, you know, church in this culture.

Yeah.

The other thing that I know that a lot of churches are afraid of is the comparing and

contrasting between, oh, but they can watch any church online on a given Sunday morning.

And when I think of that, I think of the whole Popeye's versus Chick-fil-A thing that happened

a couple of years ago.

Oh, Popeye's is coming out with the sandwich.

Oh, it might be better than Chick-fil-A's.

That lasted about two weeks.

And then all my friends were running back to Chick-fil-A because they were like, dude,

they ran out of the sandwiches.

The lines were too long.

The service was terrible.

I can't believe this.

I went running back to Chick-fil-A as fast as possible.

It didn't matter how the Popeye's sandwich tasted because I wanted the full experience

that I got somewhere else.

And so the question becomes now, church, is it just about your sermon content or is there

something greater that keeps your people locked in, that keeps them coming back, that makes

them feel like they're part of a family?

And so it can't just be about that good content.

Yeah, agreed.

And I think that's even more of an argument to own your own platform doing agree, right?

Not only for the censorship of the street, but if you're able to influence people's experience

on your site or something like that, or even if it's your communication directors on Facebook

or whatever, right?

If you're able to shepherd, wrap community...

Church Online Platform always says community around content, right?

How do we wrap that?

And Jeff always talks about discipleship, right?

How do we disciple people online?

How do we add community and discipleship from online?

And that's a very digital strategy.

It's a very...

You're just taking what you do online and you're putting it in person.

And there's nothing really that scary about that, right?

We're not going all the way that Jeff's saying, we should have online only triggers.

I agree, but we're not...

That scares those people that are online only, which you know, because you don't want to

die on that hill today.

But what really we're saying is digital people that have fought...

And if you're at your organization, at the ones that's like, yeah, I get this, right?

Which is probably the people listening to this podcast because the other people have stopped

listening a long time ago, is do things to influence the digital impact of your church.

So some of what our customers do that are pretty cool is they put up...

There's a stage display or whatever, whatever you normally do for lyrics, put another $100

TV up there, $200 TV or whatever you want, right?

And have it be the analytics for the online screen that's watching live.

And put that in the green room too.

It's very easy.

You can get that from the Resi platform.

You can get that from YouTube.

You can get that from Facebook, right?

And we update ours every 60 seconds.

So when the pastor is up there, when there's not that many people in the room today, right?

They can say, hey, you know, I'm impacting people all over the world who are watching right now, right?

And they're in the room, you know, spiritually, just like they are here, right?

They're listening to the service.

They're praying through it.

They're being impacted, right?

They're praying on their own.

They're texting their friends during services to watch it, right?

And we did that in our green room and on our stage display.

And that really helped leadership and worship kind of see it, right?

And see like, hey, wow, there's like, you know, each one of these like little dots is a person.

Like there's a lot more of those than that are in the room.

And like each one of those dots is like hearing, right?

And like our pastor will pray over them before he walks out and do things like that, which is just the cool thing to do.

So anything you can do to kind of put digital in front of leadership and say this is the impact, right?

Like stories are always helpful, but data and not just giving them data after the service, but like letting them pray over it, right?

Like it's live and, you know, experiencing it like they would pray over the room, right?

And yeah, I think there's probably other things that we could add there that help right now when the digital person is winning.

He's the pastor.

I mean, he's the strategic team.

He's the, you know, he's doing everything right now.

And then in a couple months or a few months, however long, the balance of power will change.

So how do we convince people of digital today, right?

Yeah.

I never thought of me about putting that, the analytics, like public, you know, on an agreement or something like that's a great idea.

Hey, I want to challenge Rezzy.

If anybody can figure this out, you can figure this out.

I want the Microsoft engineered NBA Orlando LED TV wall.

Like when they had, you could be the fan in the stands watching the game happen like in real time.

The fan cast.

Is that what they called it?

Yeah, that's what they called it.

I want that in church, bro.

Colin, you got to figure it out.

Like I'm told they had $300 million worth of engineers working on that project.

I'm well in the bed to take you guys, what, maybe a week or two to engineer that level.

Yeah.

I mean, we'll definitely do it in the future.

There's, you know, VR will gain a lot more traction, right?

And, you know, and that those type of platforms and we'll do it.

We tend to not do leading edge things, but like until the technology is scalable.

And today the technology is not very scalable, but it will be in the future.

And that'll definitely be one of the ways that we consume church, right?

Is, you know, hey, I can talk to the person next to me.

And there's already examples of VR churches today.

And that'll trend just on browsers, right?

Not, you know, it's a VR deal.

So like we'll do that.

I'm going to connect.

I'm going to connect you and Stephanie over at Alter Live.

And so you guys are going to, we're going to start talking Rezzy and Alter Live coming up with the solution.

Because I want to virtually see the people watching at home.

I want to stand from the stage.

I just, I think, I just think that's so beautiful to be able to show that, to be able to have that represented, I think would be awesome.

Go ahead, Ray.

Well, to give credit to a church across town, the VU did that a lot during the pandemic.

And they leveraged Zoom rooms and they put them on TVs out there.

Like they had like a spacious, spaced audience live.

But then they also had TVs around the room with the Zoom screens full blown up.

And they had the people in there.

And then the people who were watching on Zoom were watching, you know, the lead pastor, Rich.

And they were seeing each other live, like in the moment as well.

And that was just an exceptional way to kind of get people in the moment.

And so, you know, they would, they had, you know, the ability, they had a link that would go live, you know, so that you could enter into the Zoom room.

They obviously had moderators at the time, making sure everything was kosher and making sure everything was okay.

But that was actually, and I got to give them a lot of credit because the tech didn't exist.

Like Jeff, you were saying, you were talking about FanCast.

So they like leveraged what little bits of tech and they merged them together and they made that kind of thing happen.

Just really cool to see VU Church do that kind of thing to keep that live feel.

But at the same time, this whole, within this whole digital space.

And so props to them, man.

Good stuff.

And they did it without $300 million worth of engineers.

They didn't pay the big bucks for that.

Colin, take you a weekend, man.

Come up with something.

Well, what they did there, and they're a Resi customer.

So they streamed out their normal stream just like any other church.

And then they did, you know, the Zoom rooms of people that can see and talk in a physical space and they're watching.

Even though it's slightly off of what they're watching, it doesn't matter because people are still interacting with it, right?

So it's pretty cool.

And they're saying, yeah, I think anytime you can do anything like that, you know, leadership wise, it just helps bridge the gap of understanding.

Right?

Like we have, you know, most of our pastors today didn't grow up on their phones, right?

They didn't.

And it's a challenge.

And yeah.

Hey, so we're going to wrap.

We're going to land a plane.

This has been a great conversation.

Love this.

Hey, out there, own your platform.

Own your audience.

I love that.

And develop strategies for the different platforms that you're on.

The Facebook strategy is maybe different than the YouTube, which is different than the Twitter.

Figure out what you're going to do with Clubhouse and the TikToks.

Oh my gosh.

If we could figure out, this is for me, this is the thing that I'm wrestling with today.

Twitch.

How can we connect Twitch, this idea of streaming?

Not a church service.

I don't want to stream a church service in Twitch, but use it as an onboarding device to get people connected in.

I think there's an opportunity there.

I'm exploring and we're going to have some podcast conversations about that soon.

But love this idea of owning the audience and really not dependent upon some of the CDNs and that for the distribution of this.

So, hey, let's just land a plane here.

Ray, what are you thinking as we're wrapping up?

Yeah, as we talk about, you know, and kind of circle back to where we're at earlier in the conversation, as we talk about using other folks' platforms, I know that a lot of churches, especially right now, are probably scared.

They're like, man, I think I need to run away from some of these platforms because I'm afraid of how it's going to be impacted or whatever else.

But let me just remind you, you know, go back to the New Testament.

Paul stood up on public steps, preached, and yeah, he got tossed.

He got canceled.

He got, you know, a whole bunch of stuff, but it didn't stop him.

He would just keep getting right back up there and preaching as well.

And so don't be afraid to engage with these platforms however long as we can, you know, and if that's ever taken away from us, that's okay.

But don't let that be your only place.

Kind of like what Colin and Jeff were alluding to.

Make sure you got a great sermon archive on your website.

Make sure that you've got a strong website presence.

Doesn't, you know, you don't have to use one of the big boys.

You can use something easy like Squarespace or Wix, but no matter what, make sure and point people back towards that community and point them back to where they can find out more about your church.

That's the bigger deal.

Don't host it with YouTube because that's the same thing.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah.

A lot of people have a sermon archive on their website, but it's YouTube.

So people watch one video.

No, that's good, Colin, before you go on with that.

And I think this is kind of an important thing, you know, with the internet.

Nothing is ever truly free in the sense of cost, right?

And so we need to just kind of understand that too as a church that, wait, oh, Facebook's free.

YouTube's free.

Yeah.

So us, but it could eventually cost us something in the sense that they can decide whether or not they want to host our content for free.

And that's how some of that works.

And the reason why it's free is because they're making millions off of the viewers that you're sending them.

And so isn't it a better picture for you to have more giving dollars from the people that you're sending them, right?

Like if you do it on your thing, you'll have more giving, more retention, more people over time, right?

So if you own your platform, right, you're giving it to them.

They're there, they're listening to ads, paying for stuff or whatever, right?

I'm staying on those platforms viewing.

So yeah, I totally agree.

And those viewers are worth something to you too.

Not only for the kingdom, but also for the giving and the things that make your church sustainable, right?

The more viewer hours that you get, the more giving that you have, right?

The more people in community groups that you have, et cetera.

And so I think we hear free exactly like you're right.

And we're saying, okay, let's, I'm all in on free, right?

Who's not?

It's great.

But then we don't think about the costs and Facebook and YouTube are very smart at defining

free and how to make money off of free and churches should be as well, right?

And so yeah, in closing, I think we've already said it.

Really thankful for Jeff and Ray's leadership in this space and all the things that you guys

are doing to provide churches content.

It's extremely helpful and we'll, it'll be a really interesting time as we go back to,

you know, the, the hybrid types of services and hopefully everybody keeps.

Awesome.

Love it.

Hey, it's always great hanging out with, with, with Colin.

Um, and, and looking forward to more conversations like this in the future church, uh, just be

aware that what we're unintentionally doing may have consequences down the road.

I love this.

Like not, nothing is free.

These giant tech companies didn't get to be giant tech companies by giving away free services.

Uh, and so as a result, there are things that will cost and, and I'm not even talking dollars

and cents necessarily here.

Uh, and so there are challenges in some of this that, that will likely be an issue in the

future.

So, um, know that, develop that strategy, be aware of some of this going in because the

massive stress ball that was March, 2020, uh, can very easily happen again.

Uh, should seasons shift, should people shift, should situations shift, which they're likely

to do in culture today.

So be aware, be thinking about this and start to develop a plan that's maybe not so dependent

upon these free platforms.

Your, your lifeblood should not be on a free thing.

Work and develop.

There are options to kind of get you more, more stable, more secure for the road ahead, not

to mention better strategies for it.

So, uh, happy to help through that.

Hit me up on social media.

If you guys have direct questions, you can text me at 484-324-8724 or comment on anything

on social media and glad to help.

So, hey, Ray, thanks for jumping on this call.

And once again, thanks for coming in as well and, and, and taking the time.

So for Ray, for Colin, this is Jeff with the Church Digital and Stadia Church Planning.

Thanks for joining us today.

And we'll see you next time here at the pod.

Y'all have a good day.