EP117: The New Digital Pastor

Hey, we're going to get you to that podcast in one second, but before we get there, I, Jeff Reed, the Church Digital, Stadia Church Planning, I wanted to have a conversation with you, churches that are out there.

One of the greatest things I arguably think that I've done in my life, other than married and kids, okay, that aside, one of the greatest ministry things I've ever done is this idea of the fidgetal learning communities that we are offering through Stadia Church Planning.

We want to help you, we want to help your church learn to thrive, grow, and multiply fidgetally, physically, as well as digitally.

We've seen about 200 churches go through this already, and it's been a phenomenal result of it.

Culture is changing within these churches.

They're understanding what it is to thrive.

They're understanding how to grow people, how to grow their church, even in the midst of this COVID, not COVID, wherever we are in the season.

And they're even starting to understand what it means to multiply in fidgetal space.

There's no secret sauce to doing a digital strategy.

There's no secret sauce to doing a fidgetal strategy.

There's no secret sauce to making your church thrive, grow, and multiply.

It takes work.

I'm not going to lie.

But through the framework, through the questions, through the learning communities, we connect you with churches.

We give you some content.

We coach you along the way to help you make the decisions that you need to make so that your church's strategy can thrive, grow, and multiply your church along the way.

This is a great opportunity for your church.

We would love to have you be a part of it.

For more information, check out stadiacchurchplanning.org slash fidgetal.

stadiacchurchplanning.org slash fidgetal.

P-H-Y-G-I-T-A-L.

All right.

Hey, that's it.

We're going to get you back to that episode right now.

If there's one thing that we can agree on here in 2021 is there's more digital pastors running around doing ministry today in February 2021 than there was a year ago in February 2020.

Hey, this is Jeff with The Church Digital, powered by Stated Church Planning.

It's great to be here.

Love y'all jumping into this conversation here.

Look, it's a reality.

In this season, moving towards more of a digital ministry, churches are understanding, hey, we need someone to lead us in this area, in this digital area.

We need someone to champion this idea of digital ministry among the rest of our staffs.

We need someone to pastor, to care for, to shepherd people in digital space.

And why not hire, why not position, why not transition someone into this, call it a digital pastor, digital champion role?

And so we're seeing that happen in massive ways.

Now, what does this mean?

How are they doing?

What were they before?

How is that transition going?

What are the challenges?

What are the issues?

As we're moving more and more maybe past COVID or seeing maybe the light at the end of the tunnel, I don't want to jinx this thing.

The reality is, is even where we are in today's culture, here in February 2021, maybe 30% to 50% of pre-COVID attendance has made it back into the building.

For most churches, it seems the majority of the audience, pre-COVID audience, is still watching and engaging digitally.

And so even as we're trying to transition all our energy and all our attentions back to the building in an effort to get people back into the physical space that today's church seems to be comfortable with,

unfortunately, the reality is we still need to care for it.

We still need to pay attention because the majority of our audience, the majority of the people that need to be connected to our church are in digital space.

And having that digital pastor, digital champion is as important today, February 2021, and into the future.

It's more important maybe even than it was in the past.

So here's what I wanted to do.

I really want to dig into this idea.

We're bringing in three digital pastors, three people who, 12 months ago, they were not doing anything in this digital pastor role.

They were campus pastors.

They were guest services.

They were next generation people.

They were different roles.

But in this COVID season, they've had to transition into a digital pastor.

What are the challenges?

What are the issues?

What are the struggles that you're facing with?

How's leadership working?

How's volunteer recruiting?

How's casting vision?

Hey, if you're new in online ministry or you're thinking about getting into online ministry, this is an incredible conversation because you're hearing it from three successful digital pastors learning as they're going, trying to figure it out.

And you're learning insights from them.

So here's who we're bringing into the conversation.

Rob Schmidgel, who's the digital pastor at National Community Church in Washington, D.C.

Tyler Volkers, who's the digital pastor over at Ridge Community Church up in Wisconsin.

And Christian Vanderhovel.

Christian, I'm pretty sure that's how I say your last name.

I can't even read my own handwriting.

And that's the bad thing about friends on social media is sometimes you don't know how to pronounce their last names.

Sorry, Christian, who's with Cornerstone Church up in San Francisco in the California area.

But here's where we are.

We're literally asking these guys, what are your struggles?

What have you overcome?

Who's been your best friend in this situation?

Who within ministry is running with you?

What departments get it?

What departments don't?

How do you work through that?

A lot of the tensions that's involved in this physical digital COVID season that we're in.

So we got Rob, we got Tyler, we got Christian.

You got myself, Jeff, with the Church Digital and Stadia Church Planning in a conversation that I'm calling Becoming That Digital Pastor.

Okay, everybody, here you go.

Yeah, I'm Tyler Volkers at the Ridge Community Church in the Milwaukee area.

And I was serving as our family ministry director, our next-gen pastor, as well as dabbling as an executive pastor at our youngest location before I became our digital pastor in the middle of 2020.

Well, my name is Christian Vanden Heuvel, and I serve as the church online pastor right now at my church in the California, San Francisco, East Bay area.

Before that, I was a guest services director, however, I've been at my church for 20 years on staff, full-time, and I've played just about every other role.

From children's ministry director, from children's ministry director to multi-site director to campus pastor to all sorts, everything and everything in between.

So, but pivoted to church online only a couple days before Christmas of last year.

So, I'm really new at this, you guys.

I don't know what I'm doing.

I'm taking notes.

That's what I'm doing.

I'm Rob Schmidgall.

I'm at National Community Church in Washington, D.C. area.

And I was a campus pastor at one of our campuses.

When we shifted, I just volunteered to help out with the online transition and then ended up being invited into the online pastor role.

And so, I've been dual role really until the end of the year and just January, really full-time transition to online pastor.

That's awesome.

There's so many stories like each of yours that I've heard in this COVID season where maybe pre-COVID, January, February 2020, operating in one level.

Christian, I think, was guest services as an example.

And, hey, you're doing this guest services thing, and then all of a sudden COVID happens and churches are trying to pivot.

They're trying to adjust to a digital framework and starting to put guys moving pastors, moving staff people, moving volunteers even from a physical role into a digital where maybe some of those areas weren't really defined for the church.

Honestly, I've heard this story hundreds of times in the season, and honestly, really want to do a podcast to feature some guys that are on this walk, that are really struggling with some of these things, that are overcoming challenges, that are seeing successes, and start to tell some of their stories.

It's because there's so many people out there that are operating, let's call it maybe outside of their comfort zone or maybe outside of what they themselves are used to in context of ministry.

And so I wanted to bring Tyler, Christian, and Rob together.

Interestingly, I think it's three different time zones across the country, different sizes, different types of churches.

But all of them are developing a digital strategy, and all of them have equipped people, these three, to be a pastor in this digital space.

So it's going to be a dialogue.

It's going to be open-ended and kind of looking forward to the question.

And I want to learn some things, maybe even organizationally, how the churches are shifting, what are the challenges of today.

For many of you out there, this is an opportunity to relate, to connect with people that are going through some of the same challenges you are.

So, hey, there's the pivot, right?

We don't need to shy away from that.

We don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

There was an issue that happened March 2020, and churches went radical.

Churches adjusted, and you guys are in new positions as a result.

So I'm just curious, maybe from an overarching view, to start the conversation, what was that pivot like?

What was it like going from your different roles?

It happened.

Now the church is adjusting digital, and you guys are now moving into a completely different context.

So what were you feeling?

What was that pivot, that transition like for you all?

I'll start off just because I feel like it was so providential from our perspective.

We launched Church Online by using the Church Online platform that Life.Church provides YouTube.

We've been broadcasting sort of for the last, what, 10 years?

But now going, how do we engage the people that are on the other side of the camera?

We started that in September of 2019, and I was given 10%, 20%, 10% really, of my role as guest services director.

Say, hey, can you also oversee the team there and help people feel comfortable, whoever's on the other side, and maybe find out more about them.

So I started that engagement in September of 2019, started an online-only community group in January of 2020.

And so when March rolled around, all of a sudden, we went from five, six campuses, we went to one campus, only the digital campus.

And that was, it felt very providential.

We felt ready.

We felt prepared.

We were able to hang on and be able to keep doing the things that we've been doing without missing any weeks, without missing any opportunities.

So it was insane.

And I, you know, probably like all of you, there were weeks when there was just no day off because it was just constant, constant work and going all the way through Easter.

But it was a crazy pivot, and now pivoting to, hold up, are we going to keep doing this, like, forever?

Are we always going to do that?

That's our next challenge.

Hey, Jeff, for me, we describe February 2020 as a church as really the sweet spot for ministry.

I mean, things were, God was moving in the ridge.

We saw, I mean, a lot of people coming, a lot of people engaging.

We were very happy with the steps that others were taking.

I was, I called myself in the sweet spot, the most optimal role for me.

I was serving as our next-gen pastor.

I've been doing that for several years.

I've been on staff for the ridge for about 11 years at this point, started in student ministry and just continued to watch the ridge, just continue to grow and evolve over the years.

And then I was helping out one of our youngest campus as the executive pastor, thinking, hey, you know, God's got me on this growth trajectory.

You know, what is God doing, you know, in me and in the ridge?

Felt really, really good about it.

We were doing digital ministries led by a phenomenal volunteer team.

And so we had something off the ground where we were starting to engage with people digitally.

We even signed on to be a futurist group with Stadia to know and say we know one of our next hills to take is digital ministry in terms of leadership, resources, strategy.

But I remember March 15th was the day, and we were actually getting ready to teach later that Thursday night for the 14th or whatever that day was.

And they said, Tyler, we can't have any large group, like, get services at all right now.

And I scheduled to teach that weekend.

And so they threw me in the empty auditorium and said, here's a camera, go.

And we broadcast it.

I'm like, I have no idea what's going on and did not realize that that was going to be the case for several months.

And then during a little bit of the pandemic, I sit on our lead team.

My lead pastor just texted me, Jeff, actually some podcast episodes of yours.

And he just said, hey, I want you to just listen to these and let me know what you think about them.

And I said, okay, I'll do that.

So I was listening to a few of them and thought, wow, this is really interesting.

This is really kind of cool.

And then Jeff, with his relationship with you, got me in touch with you and just began to talk about, well, what does it mean to move into the role of a digital pastor?

So we were committed to saying, let's increase our leadership, let's increase our resources, let's increase our strategy.

I just never thought I was going to be the guy to be asked to do it.

But I fell in love with what I saw could be the opportunity to be a part of that and said, okay, let's begin to figure this out.

I've been trying to figure it out.

But thankfully, I've had great resources to help us kind of navigate these new waters.

Yeah, for us, pre-COVID, we were throwing all our sermons up on YouTube.

That was pretty much our online presence.

Obviously, we had our website.

But then we had been dreaming and talking about, you know, starting an online campus or community.

But we had probably a two-year trajectory that we were on.

And this obviously sped that up.

So I think our first couple of weeks, we threw it up on Facebook.

And I think by Easter, we were, we had jumped, you know, we got chopped and started going that route.

And so I think from the beginning for us, we knew, hey, this is just pushing us into our future.

It's just kind of pushing us there faster than we thought.

And for us, I think right out of the gate, we were like, this is where we've, we were supposed to be.

We should have been here.

Now we're here and we're not leaving.

And so it's been exciting, but we're just, we're just grabbing stuff.

We're throwing stuff at the wall.

We're just hanging on.

I mean, this train is running and yeah, we're just barely hanging on.

But it's been amazing.

It's been amazing.

And I'm pretty excited about what opportunities are out there.

It's limitless for sure.

That's great.

Rob, I've, I've told you this story.

My, my mother who's, who's been on the podcast leads two or three online small groups.

She loves national community church, loves every time Mark releases a book, Mark Batterson, she's reading it.

She's given the copy to me already highlighted and marked up.

I guess it's kind of pun there.

Mark marked up, sorry, moving on.

And, and, and it's honest to God, this is, this is, this is a true story.

Mom's in my house, some like Wednesday night or Thursday night, um, and, uh, in the COVID season.

And, uh, she, she looks at me and she says, Hey, does national community church, they do anything online?

I like, I never hear about them.

And I'm like, I don't, I don't think so.

I like, I, I honestly, that's, I've, they've never kind of popped up on my radar.

Maybe I should look into it and something like that was Thursday night.

And as God is my witness Friday, um, you messaged me on Facebook or whatever it was just out of the blue, starting to ask them questions.

And I'm like, Hey mom, they're, they're, they're figuring it out.

The good news they're coming.

They're going to get there soon.

But it's been exciting, honestly, you know, for me kind of sitting in the seat that I'm in, seeing so many churches pivot and, and adjust in the season.

A Christian, you know, I mean, you, you said something in, in your, when you were talking about how, yeah, you're, you're working through how to get on.

Maybe some of the question for you now is some of the, the, the, what's coming up in the horizon is, um, are we going to do this forever?

And I'm just curious, like, have you guys, has your church has leadership, have they answered that question yet?

Are you convinced and set that this is, I mean, I don't think there's a wrong answer to this, but are you doing it in the future?

Is that in the long-term plans?

Is it, no, we're not interested.

It's just a stop gap.

Is it, we're kind of experimenting and still figuring it out.

Where are each of you kind of in that long-term digital process?

Of course, though, we are definitely at the throw the spaghetti against the wall.

I'll see what sticks kind of thing.

Rob, what you said is exactly right.

We're just trying to figure it out because, um, you know, we're, we are also running online church a little bit like a physical location with attendance numbers.

Is that what we're measuring?

Are we measuring eyeballs?

Are we measuring seats and butts?

Are we, what are we doing?

Are we, how do you measure engagement?

How do you measure a next step?

How do you measure growth?

How do you measure connection?

And I think there's, we're going to have to be doing that in a different way than we do in physical location.

So pretty excited about that.

But like you said at the beginning, uh, Jeff, uh, like there's, there's all these new ways to engage with people.

We've, we started, uh, we opened up a discord server for people to chat throughout the week.

Um, I'm, I'm opening up rooms on clubhouse every once in a while, virtual cafes, uh, everything and anything.

Not necessarily to get our message out as much as, as it is to get people to come and find and connect with us on whatever device and whatever space and whatever time zone or whatever, um, time of day that they can.

I think that's where discipleship happens.

So, uh, I'm here for, for, yeah, I'm here for answers as well.

We would say as long as, uh, we're able to connect with people and connect, uh, with our ones, um, we're, we're going to be in this.

And, uh, we, we keep looking back at the research that, uh, I think Barna put out before COVID and said 60% of unchurched people were unwilling to, uh, go to a physical in-person, in-person church service.

Um, and that was before COVID.

So, I mean, you can just assume that that number is just, just way, way up.

But also according to Barna research, I mean, they're willing to check out, uh, church online, um, you know, if a friend sends them a link or invites them to, uh, not just a service, but maybe there's other, you know, we've, we've been talking a lot about platform content.

Can we put out that's shareable that, that are 99, um, and share with their one.

And so our, our conviction is, uh, digital is just like the building.

And if it works to gather people and to help them find and follow Jesus, we're in, um, and for whatever reason, um, it doesn't, okay.

Then we'll, we'll look to the next thing.

But right now our gut tells us this is what's going to connect with people and, uh, and it's going to help them find and follow Jesus.

Now, our big question is, well, how do you leverage both the physical and the digital and create a seamless integration, uh, to allow others to experience both and still, um, take steps in their faith journey, which is what we've been working on.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, I mean, I said, we're here to stay for sure.

Um, it is, it is just, it's, it's not the wild, wild west.

I wouldn't call it that, um, it's just, it's like this massive open field and you're trying to figure out like, where, where are we supposed to go?

Right.

There's so many opportunities and it's been so overwhelming in that regard.

Um, so we've really had to just decide like, what can we just do?

What can we do now?

Um, don't let the, the vastness of this opportunity keep us from doing something today.

Um, and so that's really been the challenge for us is, is just to keep trying something, trying different things.

Um, and, and learning from each other has been a huge thing.

I mean, getting in with you guys, Jeff, and with Stadia and with some of those huddles and then, um, just talking to other pastors.

Um, man, I just encourage any, any online pastors or volunteers that are out there, reach out to other guys that are doing this or, or women that are leading in this field.

Um, and, um, man, people are making themselves available.

We're all sharing ideas and, and that's the beauty of this.

I feel like in a lot of ways, we know this, right?

The world has shrunk.

Well, it has from a relational standpoint, um, for ministers too, and volunteers, like we, the way that we have opportunity to connect and learn from each other, inspire each other, encourage each other, share little ideas.

Um, it's, um, it's awesome.

So yeah, it's overwhelming, but it's also, um, the little victories that we're pulling off, you know, here and there are just, they're, they're huge wins.

Yeah, I didn't intentionally, and I'm completely transparent.

I didn't intentionally group this, but as I'm now looking at the screen, Tyler is involved in Stadia's futurist group.

And so we've been working with, uh, with, uh, the Ridge, uh, as well as some others in, in deep ways.

Uh, Rob with national community, you, you were part of the digital learning communities, you know, a shorter stint.

And it's probably, I think it's a 10 week and Stadia is onboarding even churches in 2021 and taking them through digital learning communities.

Christian's part of the Stadia Facebook group where we're connecting people together and doing this.

Back when I was doing online ministry in 20, and I've talked about this on the podcast, 2015, you know, 2016, 17, um, I felt alone, honest to God, uh, because there wasn't these shared community spaces.

There wasn't an opportunity to, to dialogue.

Um, and when you talk to the guys like who were pioneering the Steven back in, in 2010s, the Crandas, the, uh, Neil Smith, uh, you know, those guys, uh, they'll tell you Greg Atkinson, um, they'll tell you that man, it was alone.

There was a tight group.

I think there were five, uh, guys across the country that were really championing digital at that time and seeing how everything has shifted.

And now there's so much opportunity for training, for education, for, for resources, for, for guidance.

And, and I'm not even Stadia, but outside of that, uh, is, is beautiful.

See commercial, if you do want to connect with Stadia, let us know, happy to do that.

Uh, now that aside, uh, it's, it's really fun to help guys like you wrestle through some of this stuff to overcome it, uh, to, to see kind of, uh, even from a long-term strategy point to even some of the stuff day to day routines that some of the, some of those kind of struggles, what, which kind of gets me to what, what are you working on right now?

Like what's the, what's the, what's, what's the project?

What's, what's the issue?

I mean, we mentioned, I think Tyler, you mentioned like the physical and digital, uh, figuring out that relationship.

Um, is it the day-to-day stuff that, that you're really spending your time working on?

Is it more of the long-term stuff?

Like what are you physically, what's, what's taking up your time today?

Jeff, uh, what we've been working on is, uh, trying to really implement that, that quote unquote, digital strategy that we we've been talking about.

And, and, uh, how, how does the, how do we take our digital or our discipleship process, would you rather, and connect with our ones to help move them to ultimately a place where they're, they're multiplying and helping other people find and follow Jesus.

And so with, with us, um, we, we've been doing some really hard work and big vision work over the last several months, uh, where we went and we redefined our institutional one, which we spent a lot of time with intentional churches and Doug parks and those guys.

So, uh, that's where a lot of that language comes from.

Uh, but what, what was so freeing for us was when we landed on, no, we, we really want to connect with the 33 year old unchurched male and, uh, his family, whatever relationship that he may have and kids.

And that allowed us to really then say, okay, let's design our strategy to speak to that person.

Would they connect with our service?

So we spent a lot of time looking at our weekly service and saying, really what we've been doing in the auditorium is really designed for the auditorium.

And that's great.

And that's an awesome experience for what's going on in there.

Uh, but to just stream that, or even just stream parts of it, that's not necessarily the best digital experience for that man in his living room, um, or watching on a screen.

And so, uh, we, we then pivoted to customizing, uh, we did some experiments, um, and now we're, we're doing a longer experiment where we're, you know, we're going to take our weekly service and just create a uniquely designed in-person and a uniquely, uniquely designed.

Uh, digital, uh, digital, uh, service.

Uh, so what does that mean?

A couple of examples are teaching pastor for that week is giving the same message online as well as in person, but, uh, online he's speaking or she's speaking in a room similar to this right to the camera, speaking everything to, you know, just thinking through how they're consuming that.

Whereas then in person, it's going to be different, but the same calls to action are going to be, uh, the exact same, uh, music we're playing with and trying to figure out how to best engage with that because our analytics tell us starting off with 20 minutes on a weekly service of music that they don't know.

They don't know they're going to drop off on that and, uh, um, it's hard and that's a hard truth, but it's just what we see.

Um, and so that that's some of the steps we've taken.

And, but with that, that's just a piece of the bigger picture of what we've really been working on is our digital pathway and our in-person pathway to say, okay.

Can every call to action that we would have, if you're going to take a significant step in your faith journey, how can we make that, uh, um, in a way that can happen both in person as well as online.

And so, for example, if they make a decision to follow Jesus and they let us know about it, they get the same follow-up steps again, move them into our discipleship pathway, which, uh, for us is, um, they, they get the first steps kind of sent back to them to their phone.

And then we invite them into either a rooted experience.

It's in person or, or online, which then funnels them into our discipleship model, which can happen in person or online as well.

And, and have it be seamless where they can bounce back and forth, whether it's attend in person for services and go into a group online, um, and serve however.

That's a hard thing to tackle.

Uh, how about some of, some of the other, uh, others, uh, Christian, Rob, what, what are you experiencing here?

What are you working on right now?

Uh, which one?

One of the things am I working on?

I think probably the biggest thing is that vision piece.

Um, you know, cause some churches are wrestling with, okay, so do we believe that, uh, you can land in our digital community and that that's, that's a, that's a final landing spot, right?

Versus are we just, uh, reaching people and then plugging them into local churches.

And so wrestling with that.

And then, well, what do you do in the meantime?

Somebody may not immediately do that.

And so really trying to say, you know, you know, you think about like our vision as churches, it's all built around gathering.

Everything drives towards gathering.

We're not gathering, right?

We're not together.

And so while that has been a challenge, it has been incredibly, um, good for us because it's stripped away something that was good, but was also, um, how do you, how do I say this?

I think it was also weakening some of the other areas, I think of, of what our vision was for people, because our vision, uh, a lot of times brought, you know, was about, you're going to fulfill your vision in our gathering.

And there's an importance to that, but there's also a side of, of a vision for a person that is very individual and that is specific to them and is specific to how are you living right?

In your COVID circle or your own personal life.

I think one of our, one of our, um, sayings that we kind of came discovered in this season was, was this saying that, uh, the only ceiling on your intimacy with God and impact on the world is your daily spiritual disciplines.

And so we started leaning in on that and saying, how are we equipping people in their daily spiritual disciplines?

And then really a lot of our digital effort was, was around that.

Then it began to move to, okay, beyond that, like if we're reaching people that maybe don't, uh, know the Lord, what, and they get into their spiritual disciplines.

Now what's next, right?

And so leaning into more of a missional mindset for that person, how are they living on mission?

And then that, the beauty of that is I think this is going to better inform us as we start to gather again, um, for what we're doing to, uh, invest in people.

Cause we're still not gathering.

I don't know how you guys are, but we're, since we went offline last March, we are still have not gathered.

And, um, DC has, has rules and restrictions that has prevented us from being able to gather again.

And so, um, it's been a challenge, but it's, it's really helped us to focus in.

So I, that's kind of a broad nebulous answer to this, but I mean, I think it's just what we're working on

is what is our vision for every single person long-term, not just to get from A to B, but to get from A to Z.

And how are we, uh, setting people up to be able to do that when you're setting them up in the digital space,

that's so much more intentional.

It has to be, if you're not, you know, here, go here, here, here, then here, then here.

We were, we're a very organic church.

And so that's how we did church.

That's how we do life.

We're organic.

Um, but there's just not a ton of organicness in the digital space.

So it's been good for us in that regard.

And that's kind of where we're, we're really leaning in right now.

I give you props even on, on focusing on the strategy piece up front.

If you get the strategy, uh, excuse me, if you get the vision piece up front, you get the vision

settled, everything else falls into play.

You have clarity putting together the rest of the puzzle.

It's where you don't have that vision.

You don't have that finish line set.

You find yourself moving in one direction.

Then all of a sudden you talk about how, you know, the, the finish line shifts, uh, you know,

somebody moved the cheese, so to speak.

And now you're working over here.

Now you're working over here, kind of moving through, but you don't have that clarity of

vision to make sure that everything's aligning from the get go.

So what, what an important piece really to nail that vision right from the beginning.

How about you, Christian?

What are you working on?

Uh, same as Rob really looking at the strategy and the vision for our church.

Um, I, I'm hoping that we as a church and I'm, I'm saying that for Cornerstone, but I'm also

saying that for big C church that we take this pandemic and this big pause button as an opportunity

and not a, uh, not something negative, but as an, as just an opportunity to say, what are

we working on, um, we, our strategy to be really honest in this East Bay of California was not

working.

We were hitting, you know, 10,000 people in seats, whatever, but that was so far, we were

able to measure about 3% of the people around us.

And I'm thinking Rob, it's probably similar to you.

3% of people that live in our East Bay area attend church of any kind of any kind.

And so 97% of people were able to ignore us or found, find us completely irrelevant.

So we're trying to figure out what do we, what are we doing going forward?

We have not been in the building since March.

Um, some outdoor services, tiny little ones in all five of our physical locations.

And, uh, we're going, what, what are we doing with those buildings?

What are we going to use them for?

How is it going to fit?

I like what you said, Tyler.

I think we're looking at something similar to say, are we producing, for lack of a better

word, content just for online going forward, as well as live iterations of the expressions

of church?

Are we, uh, going to go less of a consumeristic individualistic type of, uh, goosebump, uh,

expression or a, um, you know, a lot of smoke machine type stuff and going to more of a synagogue

type thing where it, there's some teaching, but there's a lot of discussion.

Uh, the room is full of tables instead of, uh, chairs and bleachers.

And so that's, that's the level of rethinking we're doing and strategizing we're doing.

And it's, uh, it's upending.

It's upending a lot, uh, because our whole economic model is, was built around people coming.

We still passed bags at quarterstone at every location.

Um, so how are we going to, what are people expecting?

And, but we're focusing also a lot on the 97% who just don't know and don't care.

97% is that like the, the, the lost percentage in, in the San Francisco area where you are?

Yeah.

3% of the population goes to church and we're calling church, uh, Catholic church.

Uh, we'll take the, uh, synagogues.

We'll take the, any kind of religion.

Uh, it's, it's about three to 4%.

And so that's, we're not, we're not, it's a big mission field.

Absolutely.

It's amazing.

Yeah, it's, that, that's a great part of the great thing, but it's also overwhelming and

also kind of sobering realizing that we weren't really doing that great.

What has, I'm curious, what, what has like staff support, you know, there, there are churches

where that have reorg where there's now a large percentage of staff that are helping in the

digital space, uh, because there was, there was nowhere there and there's no physical services.

So we've got all these people sitting around, not doing something.

Let's do it digital.

There are churches where that's not happened and it's been more volunteer support.

There are churches where volunteer support's not available because of COVID and there's

fear of, of like serving in physical space or lackadaisicalness, even serving online.

And it's the lone guy taking the hill by himself, you know, it's kind of set an ego aside here,

but tell me like what, what, what does support look like for you?

You're evolving into these digital pastors who's running alongside you or you at the end of the

dock by yourself, getting ready to jump in the water.

I'll jump into that because we, we have started regathering our in-person since the summer and,

uh, we, we've, our staff has been awesome, uh, full, uh, very flexible, uh, individual.

I mean, I mean, we, we've reword several times and I don't think we're, we're completely done

obviously going to, Hey, you're digital only to now you're in-person, um, and as well as

having digital.

And I think what we found just like, uh, many, many churches and other research, I think we've

all heard.

I mean, the bridge was not immune, uh, to the percentages of those coming back in person

where, uh, we realized, Oh, we are very overstaffed for those who are attending in-person and very

understaffed for those who are just committed to, um, a digital setting.

And so what we just said, uh, is, uh, two things.

One, let's begin to, uh, reallocate, uh, some staff again to what, what does it mean to serve

on digital?

And so, uh, um, I, I mean, I have a couple of other staff individuals that are committing

just being specifically, uh, working to create content and build relationships and develop

others.

Uh, but the second, and I think this is more significant.

I think this is where many churches are going to go is it's on us to continue to lead all

of our staff people, uh, to think about both and to serve both.

I love, uh, what, um, uh, Crossroads in Ohio has said is that they're not campus pastors,

they're, they're community pastors.

And so you're going to focus on both.

And so what we're beginning to kind of think about and begin to dream up and start rolling

out as another, um, another reorg, so to speak, but I think this one's going to stick

more for the next three to five years, uh, where you're going to see a few specialists

thinking about in-person only, and then maybe a few specialists thinking about digital only.

Uh, but the majority of staff is going to have to shift just like all of us and all of our

lead pastors and anyone's teaching like, well, how do you serve, uh, both?

And I think it was a Groeschel that said it great.

Hey, we're going to go all in on physical and we're going to go all in on digital.

And everyone's going to think about both a little bit more moving out.

I think that's what we're going to land on over the next few months.

I mean, I'm, I'm technically the only, I mean, you know, we have our IT guy and stuff like

that, but, um, as far as ministry in the digital space, I'm the only one that's a hundred percent

focused on that. And then everybody else is, I mean, since we're still fully digital, everybody

has to write like small groups, you gotta reinvent that in the digital space. Um, some of our

campus pastors are leading other, you know, efforts of community gathering in the digital space. And

so I think those things are all gonna, gonna stick. Um, but yeah, it it's, everybody's got their hand

in, in the pot in a good way. Um, and then, so part of my role then is, is that also that digital

champion, right. Of just how am I encouraging, how am I helping them to dream and then supporting

them as much as them supporting me. Um, but yeah, we're, I mean, you know, it's a digital first world

and, and that's not going to change. So I think we all have to think that way. Um, and our team's

been doing a good job at that. We haven't gathered again, so I don't know if things are going to

change when we do, but according to Tyler, we'll still be okay. Cause only maybe what I'm curious

how many, what's your attendance percentage Tyler? Yeah, that's a great question. When, uh, we were

able to start regathering back in July. And at that point it was probably about 30% started coming back

now, uh, now end of January, we're seeing an uptick of, um, closer to about

it's the percentages are about the same. We're, we're seeing more starting to come back, but the

good news is, and this is where I think we're doing everything right. Our online isn't dipping,

which to me shows by grace of God, we're connecting with new people. And so, uh, so how we measure

online and, and all of that, like that, that's still growing, but our in-person is growing.

I'd say we're probably closer to 40, maybe 45% of where we were at, uh, before, um, a year ago.

And so when you go all in, we're actually up a year ago, but in-person is, um, still around that,

that 45% is what we're seeing. Yeah. It's, it seems like 30% seems to be the average of,

of where we're at today. I talked with the pastor the other day who was in Phoenix. I want to say

Arizona area who was more 20 to 25%. So there's some below that, that there are some, uh, above in

that. And, and it's awesome. But when I, when, uh, when I talk to churches and like, I asked two

questions, I'm like, Hey, what's, what's the percentage of people that, that are, that are,

that are watching online versus in the room. And it's usually like a 70, 30, 80, 20 ratio. And then

the follow-up question is like, how much, what's the percentage of ratio that's going towards your

end service, your end building services versus like your online ministry. And, and without a doubt,

it's, it's always, yeah, 90, 95, a hundred percent of, of 98% of our effort goes towards

the building and like the, the, the service, the online ministry, not even just the services,

the discipleship piece of it is often kind of been lost in the shuffle. And that's what's

encouraging to me hearing, you know, some of you guys, you're wrestling with the long-term

vision. It's not just the stop gap. You're, you're wrestling with, with how to do these things,

uh, digitally. That's an encouragement to me because that's, you're developing a full functioning

digital church that's complimenting, that's working alongside what's happening in physical

space, whether it's kind of omni-channel where it's, you know, carbon copy, you can dance back

and forth between the two, like Tyler was alluding to, or something that's self-sufficient,

self-sustaining, that it's reaching just a different type of person than, than the physical

building can. Like, these are all things that churches like yours are, are wrestling through,

uh, with this. So, well, let me ask, you know, just even as we're talking here about, um, you

know, some of, some of the struggles that we're overcoming and that churches are overcoming,

what's, uh, either give me one or two, both. I don't care. Uh, what's your biggest, what's

the thing that you bringing you the most joy? What's bringing you the most joy in doing ministry

online? Uh, maybe what's the biggest challenge that, that you're facing? Like, what are the ups and

downs of, of where you guys are on a regular basis? I think, uh, some of, some of the biggest

joys are seeing, uh, people who previously were not connected or not being discipled, uh,

being very connected. I, I hear the line, something along the line of, I feel more connected to my

church now than I have in the past all the time. Uh, it's probably because of the small

group that they're in or whatever, but this thing, this screen here allows for so much transparency.

It allows for people to open up in a way because maybe because they can close this laptop or turn

off their screen or whatever, um, that it allows people to, to, to be really open and really

transparent. I love seeing people with, um, significant disabilities, whether physical

or otherwise getting involved in church where they could not, would not feel comfortable,

um, or able to go to a physical building. Now say I, I can, and I am, and I, um, you know,

there's, there's one gentleman, uh, who has some sort of disability. And when he started

attending a small group, he was in the corner. You, the lights were off. You could see barely one eye

when he had his camera on to now seeing his face and he is engaged. And, and it's the first time in

the long time that he's had contact with other people. So that type of stuff fires me up. And, uh,

I love seeing, um, other pastors in our church take, uh, full, um, uh, make use of the 167 hours

outside of holding a microphone. I love that. And there is a lot of work to be done there because

there's a lot of people who just want, they feel like that's ministry. I'm holding a microphone

and eyes on our, are, are on me. And, uh, so those are some of my wins, man. I, uh, one of the things

I'm most excited about is our, we started, uh, a seven 14 AM prayer meeting, um, on zoom. And, um,

we ended up having 101 prayer meetings last year. We gather every Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,

101 prayer meetings. We took the number of people that attended, multiplied it by the time spent.

And we prayed for what would have, what would equal out to a hundred and 800, 854 days.

Oh my gosh.

Prayer over two years of ongoing prayer that happened because of this. We've done prayer

meetings in the past. We do 40 days of prayer, you know, every year to kick off the year,

30 days, or we do Lent prayer. We'd never come close to the amount of people that can show up at

7 14 for prayer. And you know what, if they got to, we usually go till 7 45, eight o'clock. If you got

to cut out at, at seven 40, that's fine. You know? Um, but those kinds of things, you know,

we've started, we started, uh, uh, a daily five minute podcast. We call it NCC daily. And we've

created text groups around these things where, Hey, everybody listened to it on your own, drop a text

when you do in your little group, um, little things like that, you know, being two weeks ago,

being on the, on the, you know, on zoom with someone in Berlin, Germany talking about, um,

you know, about their life and just kind of coaching them through that. And then the week

before that, talking to someone down in Argentina, um, crazy on the flip side of, and I'll say this,

this is kind of what you were alluding to Christian, the rich are getting richer spiritually. The people

who are putting in the effort in this season are growing exponentially. It's amazing. But what has

been so hard for me is connecting with people who I know love the Lord with all their heart,

but they'll say, I haven't watched church in three months. I just can't get into it. And I mean,

I get it. Right. Um, and thank God we're connecting. Cause they're like, I need, you know,

I need some, I need, I need some encouragement. I need to be held accountable. I need you to,

you know, but man, that, and there are so many people who I'll reach out and just connect. And they're

like, Oh yeah, I haven't watched in a month. You know, I haven't watched in six, six months. I mean,

Oh, that's hard. That's the stuff that just, it, it kills you, man. But, and it's not that they

haven't walked away from faith. They're not, you know, they're just, it just, they don't connect that

way. And so trying to lean into how are we, how are we building that, you know, keeping that connected

community together, even if you're not going to watch online, that's fine. But how are we engaging

and how are we connecting? And anyways, that's just being kind of real vulnerable. I mean, it's really

hard. Yeah, I can, I can relate. I can understand. Thank you for the, some of the, the transparency

there. It's funny. We, we, we talk about how in digital churches, you reach a different type of

person through digital methods. And, and you're, you're seeing that in the season. You're right.

You're able to connect the people that are hungry, that can work this model. Like there's no limit to

what they can do by, by engaging through it. But the sad reality is without the physical model

working, there's a percentage that's not, that's not going to be able to connect as well. And I don't

know if necessarily, you know, some people are like, it, it draws a generational line. You know,

an older generation is not going to, I don't, I don't believe that. I don't think it's, it's

generational. You know, I would actually, second time my mom was mentioned on the podcast. You're

welcome, mom. I mean, she's 73. Like I said, she's leading, she's leading two small

groups right now. And she's like trying to figure out how to ramp up and do a third.

And, and it's not, and it's not old lady. She's doing it. She's like doing it with, with

younger women doing like mentoring type relationships and, and just really, really rich into it. So,

but there's, there are people, there are ways to engage into it. You just got to figure out,

I guess, how to get there, how to connect with it.

Well, our prayer meeting is, is definitely a higher age demographic. We're, I'm seeing a lot more

people like my, you know, my mom, the same it's, she loves it. Right. Cause it's hard to get out,

to walk from the car all the way into the church and then, you know, getting back out. So she loves,

loves this. Um, but yeah, you know, you know, it's also been, um, significantly, which demographic

has significantly grown is our singles. They feel way more, um, engaged. They don't feel quite as,

uh, marginalized, you know, in a, in a physical church setting where it's about families and kids

and all that. So.

Well, cool. Um, I, Rob, I want to unpack not today, but that prayer thing, I, I'm, we're going to have

another conversation. We'll, we'll, we'll dig into that. Like, I'm really intrigued. Like my first

question is, do people show up in their pajamas? Like I want the honest, we'll ask that off air.

We'll tease that for, for a later time.

It's called video off.

Okay. I got you now.

I'm sipping that coffee. I'm eating my bagel.

Probably 20% at max have their video on video off button. What's been the biggest surprise? Um,

you know, it's some of you, Tyler was, was leaning this way. I think pre COVID, uh, Christian,

you've been all over the map, uh, doing in your ministry career, Rob, you were a campus pastor,

as I recall, kind of pivoted as, as a result of this. So some of you, you know, definitely lots

of rich ministry career, not, not much on the digital side. What, what surprised you in this?

You're like, Oh, I didn't see that coming. I didn't expect that.

Uh, I'll, I'll jump in and kind of tail end off the previous question with the joy of the anytime,

anywhere, any place, which has led to that surprise. Cause you guys are talking about the different

generations, different stages of life, experiencing that, you know, from a personal standpoint, like,

um, Jeff, I'll mention my mom as well. My family lives outside, uh, out of state and there's,

they're in a spot that there's not many churches like the Ridge there. And my wife and I were like,

Hey, at some point we go plant there, you know, because, but this has allowed us to connect with

them. And we're seeing family members take steps. My, my wife's had family members that

kids are never had an experience like we're able to provide. And now they're doing that in their homes

to, uh, to see that. So I think for the surprises just in a really pleasant way of this really is

anytime, anywhere, any place, people are taking steps to follow you. So I get a message on Tuesday

morning from, Hey, I saw you guys talk about depression. I want to talk about that. And they're

jumping in and, uh, it's been really cool, but Jeff, the other, the other big surprise I, and I just want

to share, uh, just a kind of a note of gratitude for me. I was very pleasantly surprised when you said,

uh, at first to me, he's like, Hey, this is a tight knit community. And just the opportunity that you

and the names that you mentioned, Ray, Ben, um, all of those guys, guys that you've had on this

podcast before and how open-handed you have been and saying, Hey, we're not, we're going to do

whatever we can to lead our churches, but not just our churches. We're going to help all these other

churches across the nation and the world figure this out and help them get going. And I think many

people are following Jesus as a result of that. And so that was just really cool where anytime text

message or whatnot, I mean, you guys are saying, Hey, we'll help you. We'll, we'll get this figured

out. And no question was too small. No question was too big. And, uh, in other areas of ministry,

it's not as open-handed like that. And so that was a very, very cool, um,

thing to hear. And so thank you, Jeff. And thank you to, um, the original guys who, who allowed this,

I think to probably be an easier transition for us than maybe what it would have been otherwise.

I'll tell you a lot of that's grounded, uh, over years and decades of ministry life being told

you're crazy. And so when, when somebody comes along who thinks the exact same way you are,

and is asking the questions that you were asking, I don't know, five, six, seven years ago. Yeah.

You want to help that guy because you're not, you're not crazy. Like I, I've not told the story

before, but I remember walking into a, uh, a digital conference that was out in California,

down in a Disneyland, downtown Disney. And, uh, walked into this, it was a tech church technology

conference. And literally I was shocked. There were a thousand people who were asking the same

questions that I was. This is back in my staff life. And this is when I really realized, wow,

there's like people out there like me who are needing help, who are asking these questions

and just don't have the, the, the database of names that the history, the connections to get

some of these answers. So yeah, definitely love, uh, what's happening there. So how about the other

two, uh, Christian, Rob, what do you guys think in, in context of maybe some surprises in this ministry

shift? I love the, uh, friendships that have formed between volunteers, uh,

from all over the West coast, from different countries that are now serving with us. And it's,

it's the, I mean, you know, you know, that solid friendships can form online. Uh, but to see

that happen and see the people come, uh, alongside each other during difficult times and hop on the

phone or on a zoom, um, after just a chat turns a certain way was really, uh, really fun. And the

other surprise was how many people start their journey with Jesus based on, uh, you know,

watching something on their computer or mobile device and getting a chance to baptize them and

start. It's been, it was one of those aspirational things that you start when you talk about church

online, like, Oh, we can, you know, we can, and people will, you know, accept Christ. And to see

that actually happen because they were sent a link teenagers, um, all, all ages, it has been really

surprising and very, very cool. Yeah. I think on the positive surprises, I'm, I'm echoing what these

guys are saying about just the openness of, of the community to, to be available. Um, on the, the,

uh, maybe more difficult surprise that I didn't see coming was, was how difficult it, it is to minister

to, to kids. At least it has been for us. Um, I mean, we're doing all the videos and, um, you know,

but like kids being able to engage with the teacher we're trying on, on zoom, we're doing small groups

with kids and, but it's just, it's been harder than I anticipated. You know, I figured, Hey, we just

make a cool video and kids and parents will love it. Um, but I think parents are really feeling the loss

of, of, of that, those other voices into their kids lives. Um, and so that's been a real surprise

kind of to me that, that it's, it's so difficult to figure out. So we're still again, throwing spaghetti

against the wall, trying to, to get it, but, uh, that's been a tough surprise.

Rob, yeah, we, we've had that similar surprise as well. And I wonder just kind of thinking as a former

next gen guy, um, all that staff is trying to pivot real hard to get, you know, the videos up and the

videos up. And, uh, I was talking with our kids team the other day and I'm like, you know, just use an

orange, for example. And I think you guys are an orange church as well. Uh, Hey, their goal is never to

put a video out in front of a kid. Um, the goal, the strategy really is, well, how do you get a small

group leader and a parent partnering together, uh, to influence a kid? And so maybe it's not the

goal. Maybe it's not the goal to get the video out. Maybe the goal is, well, how do we leverage

these digital tools to partner with a parent and to partner with a small group and just introduce

each other? Maybe it's not YouTube. I, I don't know. I mean, we're starting to just try to hit the

groundwork going too, because that was the area I noticed that was obviously the easiest when you

start regathering in person to push digital to the side again. Cause now you're like, now we got to,

do small groups and CDC protocols and all of this stuff. And, and it was the easiest to kind of

start walking away. And I'm like, hold on, hold on guys. Let's, you know, let's start kind of

gathering around and let's start rethinking this because, um, cause you're right. And it can feel

lonely, um, but not offering that. Yeah. For me, kids was the, um, my surprise of, of COVID. Um,

I'm, I'm church ass. I remember I was doing a webinar and, and one of like, um, kids is not

even on my radar. Um, and, and I, I've done kids ministry online back in like 2017. So like,

it wasn't, but it wasn't, it's, it just wasn't urgent, you know, in the grand scheme of my life,

uh, in pre kind of as COVID was starting up. And I remember that question came across

in a, in a webinar I was leading and I saw it and it kind of like blew it off. And then like

three more people asked the same question, kind of upvoted it in the thing. And it's like,

oh, I guess I'm going to have to address this one and gave some, some fluff answer. They didn't like

it in just four months. What do we do with the kids? What do we do with the kids? What do we do

with the kids? It's, it's just been that, that repeating pattern. Uh, I love churches that are

experimenting with it. I think the, I don't know that there's a really good lesson here. I don't think

there's a solid answer. There's no secret sauce, but it's don't it's, you have to think

different than what you're doing in the current space. Like, you know, I'll throw like the, uh,

and, and this, this may be crazy and, and I'm, I'm kind of crazy, but like the, uh, Robloxian

Christians, uh, Daniel Aaron's been on the podcast. It's actually the most listened podcast by the

church digital, uh, Daniel Aaron talking about the Robloxian Christian church that he started when he

was 11 years old and just recently handed it off to somebody else because it was weird for a 20 year

old to be in Roblox. And now like some 16 year old girl is running this, this church that has impacted

a last, last count I heard was like somewhere around 60,000 people over the span of, of nine

years. Ridiculous. But it's not, Hey, let's, let's do like this physical church service, do it, do it

digitally. It's a completely separate thing. And so like the people that I've seen be successful

are like that, uh, there are churches that are now doing like established churches. Bayside in

California is, is one of them trying to get connected with, but they've got a Robloxian

campus and their kids ministry is run by kids and students. And that's happening, um, in, in that

environment or, you know, the guys who, who's the, the YouTube crew that does all the, like the

basketball, like 50 miles away. You know, it's, it's the goofy stuff on, on YouTube. Uh, Tyler

Sansom does this stuff where he's, um, they utilize YouTube to connect with the kids or

with adults or different things, not preaching the gospel in the content, but using it to

develop relationship through the social media network of YouTube and then connecting them

to the church through that relationship where you said, Jeff, where you said like, it's

about relationships. I think that we've got, it's all about relationship. When Tyler just

said, thank you so much for sharing everything that you had. When, when, when first we were

locked in, we were, uh, some people around me were nervous that everybody was just going

to watch Mark Patterson or Andy Stanley or Jeff or whoever, you know, um, Groschel. And, and

that's not the case. That's people are still wanting to connect with us because we have a relationship.

And so we have to be in all these space. We have to be in world blocks. We have to be on

Facebook. We have to be in YouTube. It's driving us crazy to think that we're have to be on

TikTok as a church. My gosh, do we have to, and all of it to have that relationship. And how do we

multiply that? How do we not kill ourselves? And by, by spreading ourselves too thin. But I think

it's been so surprising too, to me, um, like Tyler, what you said that everybody's so open

to go, come see what we do, do what we do, use what we have. And, and it doesn't mean that we're

all going to the, to that one spot, to that one preacher, to that one experience. We actually see

even more iterations, um, get created. And I think the interesting challenge for churches like yours,

I would say this, I think the next step for you, and it's interesting, I'm going to build

Christian on that example right there. I got to get my church on TikTok. I don't know anything

about TikTok. What's this clubhouse thing? My gosh, they come out with new parlor was a thing and

then it went away. Okay. It's good. Now it's bad. I got, since you're coming out with so much new

stuff, how am I supposed to keep up at some level? And I haven't seen a lot of churches do this,

but I think this is the challenge. At some point you've got to let go of being the ones to go and

do your voice on those platforms. What I mean by that is find three strong Christians that understand

what it is to make a disciple in your church and invite them to go tackle TikTok. Invite someone

else to develop your strategy for, for clubhouse. Okay. Maybe stay away from parlor. I don't even

know if it's up yet, but back up yet. I don't know political hate mail, please, but find ways to

empower others to go be that voice. You're there. There's so many opportunities digitally. And this

is the thing. I don't think the church is really grasped yet. We are a lid in the digital space

because it's so easy to do instead of us, our institutional voice building off of Tyler and his

content with intentional churches. Instead of our institutional voice being the one that everybody

hears, which by the way, they don't care about our institutional voices. Individuals have the power.

Let's get individuals out there. Let's, I'm more interested in four. Oh yeah. I'm more interested

in four digital disciples getting into TikTok than North National Community Church getting into TikTok.

Mark Batterson. Okay. Maybe Mark Batterson doing a 60 second TikTok dance. I would be interested in

that. Make that happen. We're not happening. Okay. But get some digital missionaries out there. Get

somebody who understands that culture to do it and empower these individuals to do something. There'll

be more, and then funnel it into your digital church, whatever that looks like. That, that to me would

be the goal. What do you guys think about that? Yeah. We're, that's our thought right now where we're

also looking at equipping kind of like the micro movement as well. Like, Hey, you know, how do we

equip people to, you know, gather their neighborhoods and do this? Well, we can take that same training.

This is our thought process is do that same thing for individuals to wherever they're at online and

then invest in their ones online as them as an individual. We have a lady who attends our church

who has done very, very well with some social network marketing company. If I said the company,

you would be very familiar with it, I think. And, and she just told me, she's like, if people want

that brand, they can just go on that website and buy the brand. I have to get them to trust me as an

individual before that, that brand. And she's just done an incredible job with that. And so I think the

next challenge of what we're working on, Jeff, you're, you're dead on is how do we equip our 99,

those who, who call the Ridge their home, but call themselves followers of Jesus to connect with

their ones relationally and invest in them. Not just in, at the gym or at the schools or in their

neighborhoods, which they need to do, but in, in their own online community that they are. So if they're

going into their local community, Facebook groups and building relationships, their school or

with, you know, running or whatever, you know, like to develop relationships there, we give them the

tools to then begin to interact and, and help them follow Jesus and do their own things there. Yeah,

I agree. 50, 50 year old lead pastors should not be dancing on TikTok. I don't think that would be a

great idea at all. But if we take those opportunities to say, no, here's how you as students or

20 somethings to do this, um, in a way that builds genuine relationships, I think, I think can help

just continue to grow God's kingdom. I don't know how much of a, of a, of a conversation is this for

you and your church or with leaders, but I think we have to stop moving away from making all these

online iterations of church, just the way to funnel them to come into one of our rooms and have some

sort of worship experience. It's great. That's a great goal. But I think if we change it to say,

no, we are just using all these tools to help you create meaningful discipleship relationships

in person or not, we're going to help disciple you. And that ultimately is going to lead to in-person

change for you and your community. But I'm not sure if that's going to be in big auditoriums all the

time, or as an ultimate goal. I would think the pendulum is shifting. Um, I think that you're,

you're going to see more comfortability in that digital space right now. There's still,

we want to drive people to, to the building. Um, the building itself is under turmoil. Um,

honestly, you're, you're ones, you're people who are called to Christ Christian, the 97s that are in,

uh, San Francisco. I think they're going to treat the church like they would a movie theater.

If, if they are comfortable enough to go into a movie theater, a strange building,

sit in a chair for two hours and watch, okay, not an Avengers movie, just watch some random movie.

If they can do that, I think there's still a chance for the church. If we can't even get them to shell

out 15 bucks to go sit and watch a popcorn flick. Uh, I, I don't think we're going to see evangelism

happen. Now there may be other things that can happen in the building, but I don't think that the

evangelistic part of, of our church strategy is going to exist in that building on, on the one hour on

Sunday. Hey, just as we're, as we're wrapping up here, this has been an awesome conversation. Let's

is, is online ministry like for, for you personally, church, you know, they're figuring out some of the

long-term vision, what this looks like. I'm just curious for you, like, is, is this your, your whole

hog? You're in this, is this, you know, you're not sure long-term if this is online or, or if it's

physical kind of what's your temperature at this point, you know, February, 2021, what does it look

like for you long-term? Is this, is this the long-term or you're still working that through?

Let me, let me see what my GameStop stock is at right now.

Well played. Well played.

Yeah, man, I'm in it, dude. This, this is phenomenal. I love just the opportunity that's

out here. Um, I love, you know, the people that are in this space and it, it, there's no,

there is no age limit. There are limits with someone's age on what they'll do, but there's

no limit to any age being involved at some level in this space. And so it's just, it really is

exciting. And I'm, I'm, I just, man, I just have to keep myself focused because I can, there's so

many potential, right? Like we were talking about so many things we could do. So I'm trying to be like

focus. Um, yes, yes. A hundred percent. This is, this is the future. This is now.

I want to echo everything Rob just said. And, and I want to say that field that you talked about at

the beginning, Rob, like it's just a vast open field, uh, that's just ripe for harvesting. I'm

so in that. And if I could do this for the rest of my ministry career, I think it'd be a huge win,

uh, because there's so much to be discovered. There's so much to be developed so much to be found

out that, um, sign me up, sign me up.

Love it. You know, Jeff, I'm laughing because a year ago, I had no idea what like an online campus

pastor or digital pastor was. And, and here we are, you know, kind of going through the transition.

I think, uh, for, for me, the joke around me, as long as I've been on staff at the Ridge for,

you know, last 11 years, I've just been wired in a way to, uh, just kind of come into something

that's been started, build it up, build systems, implement a strategy, and then find the next

person, hand it off and go and do that. I don't know if that's the case for online. I think online,

uh, there's a lot of ground to cover. There's a lot of work yet to be done. And it's probably going

to, um, do this. I can say the Ridge is definitely in on this long, long term. And I'm planning on,

uh, like I mentioned earlier, all of us have to continue to think about this more and more.

So I think so. Um, I just, uh, as my job description changes about every two to three years,

who knows, uh, what that, what that could mean, but, um, we're committed as a church where we always

say, Hey, um, as long as it's helping people, we're going to do it. And we, we think digital

is doing that right now. Hey, you're every two to three years. I mean, there were parts of my

ministry career where it was every two to three months. I had a different role. I think Christian

can probably agree with that. It sounds like with his history, but, uh, that's, that's awesome.

I, and I've loved, I loved seeing each of your churches, uh, work through this and, and, uh,

each of you individually kind of, kind of grow and develop in ministry. And so looking forward to

more conversations, uh, in, in the days, weeks and months ahead, because what's COVID's a marathon.

I feel like we said that 10 months ago, COVID's a marathon. And, and we're, I think we're on mile

10 of what is still a long road ahead of us here. So looking forward to, um, honestly,

be in that water guy, uh, next to the barrel at, at mile marker, 11.4 saying, Oh, you just got another

15 miles. You're fine. Keep going. You're good. You're good. You got it. Keep going. It's pretty

much where I am at this point. Keep going. You're good. Hey, this has been a great time as we're

landing the plane. Uh, any, any closing thoughts? Um, Christian, anything from you wrapping up?

No, I just, I hope we can continue this, uh, close knit community, even if it, when it grows,

that we keep ourselves available to help one another out. There's so many questions that

you, you, Jeff and Jay, like just problems you've already solved. And it's super helpful for those

of us who were just getting started. So I hope we can keep that going and, um, and that we can,

yeah, keep our, keep our, um, our phones, uh, right next to our, our, us ourselves to, uh, to answer the

call. Awesome. That's exact. Keep, keep the thumbs on the, on the, on the keyboard. Just, just keep,

could you imagine doing this without the Apple iPhone? I just, I want to, sometimes I rip Apple

on the show a little too much maybe, but like without internet, without the iPhone, I could not

imagine the church dealing with the pandemic in this, in this season. Like I think God brings

opportunities in and amongst everything. And I think I would say helping for our, for our churches

with Slack, if we made the move to Slack about two years ago, I don't know if we would have survived

without Slack. So if you're not using Slack as an organization, when everybody's in different,

uh, physical locations, it is, it's a lifesaver. Yeah. I, I would, I would echo that Slack's a big

win. Rob, Tyler, any, any closing thoughts here as we're wrapping up? I just, uh, keep going.

Everyone's doing great. I mean, we're trying new things and just stay agile and lead with vision.

I think, uh, as we continue to try new things and see new things, you're going to face opposition.

You're going to face pushback. Um, but remembering the why and the why is what we try, you know,

it's just continually with vision and, uh, you'll keep doing great. Awesome. Well, well said Rob.

I think I would leave everybody with, if they have any questions, reach out to Tyler or Christian and

they'll help you out. Um, no, thanks Jeff, just for creating this space, man. And for,

for being the crazy weirdo who thought about doing this five years ago or 10 years ago,

whenever you were doing it. And, um, yeah, just so thankful for, for just the,

the circle of people that you've pulled together to, to make available for people. So, um,

Hey man, keep trying everybody. We're going to, we're, we're making a difference. We're going to

make a difference and just want to encourage everyone to keep plugging away, man, and, and,

and stick with it. So thanks, Jeff.

That's awesome. Hey, so we're going to wrap on this once again. Thank you to, to Tyler, Christian

and Rob for jumping on, on, on the podcast here. Great time dealing, talking with this panel,

um, towards, you know, what's next and, and seeing them, them grow and develop their,

their churches and them themselves as, as digital and online pastors. So we're going to wrap

and, uh, we will be talking about this, uh, I'm sure again, and continuing here on the podcast,

but for Tyler, Christian, for Rob, this is Jeff with the church, digital stadia church planting.

Thanks again for joining us here on, on the pod. And we'll see you next time here at the show.

Y'all have a good day.