EP122: Millennials, Evangelism & Digital Church

Hey, we're going to get you to that podcast in one second, but before we get there, I,

Jeff Reed, the Church Digital, Stadia Church Planning, I wanted to have a conversation with

you, churches that are out there. One of the greatest things I arguably think that I've done

in my life, other than married and kids, okay, that aside, one of the greatest ministry things

I've ever done is this idea of the fidgetal learning communities that we are offering

through Stadia Church Planning. We want to help you. We want to help your church learn to thrive,

grow, and multiply fidgetally, physically, as well as digitally. We've seen about 200 churches go

through this already, and it's been a phenomenal result of it. Culture is changing within these

churches. They're understanding what it is to thrive. They're understanding how to grow people,

how to grow their church, even in the midst of this COVID, not COVID, wherever we are in the season,

and they're even starting to understand what it means to multiply in fidgetal space. There's no secret

sauce to doing a digital strategy. There's no secret sauce to doing a fidgetal strategy. There's no

secret sauce to making your church thrive, grow, and multiply. It takes work. I'm not going to lie,

but through the framework, through the questions, through the learning communities,

we connect you with churches. We give you some content. We coach you along the way to help you

make the decisions that you need to make so that your church's strategy can thrive, grow, and multiply

your church along the way. This is a great opportunity for your church. We would love to have you be a part

of it. For more information, check out stadiachurchplanning.org slash fidgetal.

Stadiachurchplanning.org slash fidgetal. P-H-Y-G-I-T-A-L. All right. Hey, that's it. We're

going to get you back to that episode right now. All right. I'm going to be up front here. I've been

convicted in my life here as it comes to this podcast. You see, we bring all sorts of people on

this all the time, all sorts of guest lists. Very rarely in my life have I actually ever been told

no. Most people, the majority by far, when I invite somebody onto the podcast, they're willing

to come. But what's interesting is we've really never delved into millennials or even Gen Z,

maybe a couple. There's a couple of them around, the Jates, the Daniel Ahrens. But I've really been

convicted recently to say, hey, well, let's bring some younger voices. Let's bring some different

perspectives in here. There are some things that happened in 2020 when it comes to the millennials.

We've talked about the digital evangelism report coming out of Barna a lot. We're also, Barna has

done some research towards 50% of millennials are now saying that the word evangelism is bad and don't

recognize how to do evangelism within the church. And this is a problem. This is definitely a problem

that we should be addressing. And rather than me being the 43-year-old church staffer and pastor

that I am, I don't know that I want to solve that problem or more accurately, I don't know that I

can solve that problem. So for me, I want to start to bring in some voices. Maybe that can speak some

wisdom into this and learn, take a posture, create an atmosphere for learning here. And so first off in

this conversation, I'm bringing in Clavan Pavilion. Now Clavan is Canadian. Like this is an incredible

conversation. I'm bringing in a millennial from Canada who works as a communications manager at an

Anglican church. So we are going Anglican here learning about and talking about church online. Like

this is crazy. Clavan published an article. You can find it in the show notes, but centered around these

digital campfires, these ways that we can create and connect in community digitally. An excellent article.

Number three, we'll get to it in the podcast. Number three challenged me as a person. Hey, these are

things that we need to do better. So it's a great article to dive into. And Clavan's got a great

perspective. We talk about our article, which is good. We also dive into this idea of, okay, I don't know

that you can speak for your generation, Clavan, but what does evangelism look like for you? What are you

comfortable with? How can we get you on mission? What does that even mean? And so this is the heart

of this conversation. Yeah, we're talking digital church, church online. We're talking digital community,

digital discipleship, but really the heart of this gets down to this idea of millennials, evangelism,

and church online. So we're bringing in Clavan once again from Canada, as well as Ray D'Armas,

a digital pastor at Christ Fellowship Miami in a conversation that I'm calling once again,

millennials, evangelism and church online. Okay, everybody, here you go.

Yeah. So my name is Clavan Prevalon. I'm 26 and I'm up here in Toronto. I'm currently the

communications manager at St. Paul's Bloor Street, which is an Anglican church. And how I kind of,

I've kind of got here is, you know, I grew up Christian. I went to a Catholic school. I was

confirmed in a grade eight. And then, yeah, I went to Catholic high school as well. And then, you know,

I went to university and, you know, I think in university, everyone kind of wanders away. But then

when I was finishing university, I took the alpha course and it was the second time I took the alpha

course. The first time I took it was actually before I got confirmed in grade eight. And so now

when I was taking it the second time after university, this was in 2017, I just remember,

you know, just, you know, wanting to, you know, get back into, you know, my faith and wanting to just

really like connect with Jesus. And I remember praying, you know, Jesus, like, I just, I really want you

to be my friend and I was, you know, learning about the Holy spirit. And so it was just, it was,

it was a really good, I think, way to refresh my faith. And so I had done in university, I studied

communications. I fell in love with communications and I always tell people that I think God had a

sense of humor because I was applying for jobs and I was hearing back from different, from different

jobs. But I, I feel like God was like, okay, you like communication so much, come and do it for me.

So I, I applied for this, I applied for this communications coordinator job at St. Paul's and

I heard back from them and it was kind of a funny story too, because they had, they had contacted me

and they were like, how did you hear about this job? And I was like, I just applied through LinkedIn.

And they said, Oh, cause you know, we took the job posting down like over a month ago. And I was

like, well, I, I applied. And so I had the interview and I was hired and I started, uh, November 1st,

2017. And then a month and a half later, I was promoted to communications manager. And since then,

um, I've been working at St. Paul's and I do communications. So, um, I've kind of led St. Paul's

through, um, a website rebrand, a website redesign. Um, you know, they didn't have Instagram when I

started, so launched an Instagram account. Um, and so I oversee, you know, email, social media, uh,

just all things communications. And I'm a team of one. So, um, it's, it's, it's going to be difficult,

but that's kind of where I am right now. And even though I work in Anglican church,

I go to a Baptist church. So I raised Catholic, work in Anglican church, go to a Baptist church.

So kind of all over. Um, but I think in like the time that I've been working at St. Paul's,

I've just really developed like a heart and a passion for like social media and like using it for like

discipleship and digital ministry. And I always just think that like the church has the best message

in the world. And like, you know, the fact that, you know, there's all these cool platforms and just,

you can use those to, to, to connect with people and connect them to Jesus, but connect them to also

with each other. Um, and I just get excited about that, about digital discipleship and online ministry.

And so, um, that's kind of, yeah, my story.

That's awesome. I love this. I love the idea of, um, social media with an Anglican church. Honestly,

I think this may be the first Anglican we've had on the podcast. I'm Ray. I'm just going back through.

I don't, I can't think of, of any others that, that may have been, maybe, maybe I have no idea

actually what Stephen Fogg is. So that may be the answer over there, but kind of love your heart and

some of the story behind you now getting into, uh, up in, in Toronto where, where you live and doing

ministry up in that area. So, uh, Clavan, I ran into you, at least in, in, in social media,

in, in, in a Facebook group, uh, you posted an article and we'll put it in the show notes here,

um, talking about our digital campfires, part of your church's strategy. And, and to me,

it caught my eye cause I'm like, what's a digital campfire. And then as I was reading in and digging

into kind of what your approach is and kind of the intentionality that, that you're bringing in

towards a digital ministry, it was, was kind of, uh, eyeopening for me at, at someone at such a

young age had so much clarity towards us. So, uh, and by the way, we didn't, I don't think you said

this year, 26, 26. Yeah. So do you, by the way, before we get to the article, do you consider

yourself a, cause that's right on the line, right? Between millennial and Gen Z.

Gen Z, Gen Z, Gen Z, yeah. Um, yeah. It's funny cause sometimes I'm like, oh, that's very,

like I'll do something or think something. I'm like, it's very Gen Z of me. And other times I'm like,

oh no, like I'm a millennial. I think I generally lump myself in with millennials,

but I'm definitely, I'm like one of the, like the youngest millennials I'd say. Yeah.

Good, good to know. Okay. So let's talk. It's funny. We'll come back to the whole millennial

thing here in a little bit. I'm always interested in talking with a millennial and trying to understand

their worldview, their, their perspective that better on some, I'm actually like, uh, the oldest

scale on the millennial. And I'm like, I don't consider myself a millennial at all. So we'd love

to kind of understand more of that, but let's talk here about, about some of the, uh, the,

the article. So like explain to the, the audience and refresh my memory here. Um, a digital campfire,

like what, what do you specifically mean in context when you're talking about a digital campfire?

Yeah. So, um, the term digital campfire, I have to make sure I say it is not a term that I coined.

Um, I read an article about a year ago, um, and it was by Sarah Wilson. She's the one that came up

with the term and she introduced this. Yeah. She was talking about the future of social media

and how she's noticing that the future of social media is heading towards the digital campfires

and digital campfires are essentially, uh, these smaller, intimate, more spaces where people,

especially younger audiences are connecting. And so, you know, she should be essentially what she was

saying is we're moving away from these perfectly curated profiles and these public facing posts.

And people are having conversations and connecting over shared interests within these digital campfires.

And she identifies, uh, three categories of digital campfires. So they are, um, private messaging,

micro communities and shared experiences. And so I read this article, uh, a year ago and I was like,

wow, I was like, yes. Like I was just like, immediately I was like, yes, like this, this is spot on. I,

I was reflecting on my own social media use and my, and my friend's social media use. And I was just like,

yeah, like this, this, this is definitely where social media is heading. Um, and so that, you know,

I kind of had this article in the back of my head all throughout 2020 and, and seeing,

you know, then the pandemic came and seeing, you know, how churches had to pivot to, to go online and

doing ministry online, um, and just kind of noting, you know, what looks like that's, that's,

that's a great idea. And noticing what really wasn't really working well. Um, and so again,

thinking about all that and then get to the end of 2020. And I think it was part frustration,

but also part feeling inspired. And then I was like, yeah, wait, the church,

the church can be and create digital campfires like for worship and for community and for

discipleship. Um, and so that's where the, where the article was kind of born out of, um,

just to hopefully inspire and encourage anyone reading it, you know, just of, of new ways to,

I think, approach online church. That's really good. Yeah. Um, I've seen how private messaging,

especially, uh, for countries that can't have full digital access to the gospel.

Are they've been leveraging this for, so for instance, at my church, there's a gentleman

who's Pakistani back in his home country. They can't, they can't openly share the gospel digitally,

but they've been on telegram for years because it's completely encrypted. And so they've been

leveraging that for the sake of sharing verses and sharing encouragement, or even just, you know,

sermons online, et cetera. How have you seen private messaging kind of take off, you know,

here in the free world, but also just as a way to engage people missionally?

Yeah. Um, uh, I know I'm, I'm also kind of inspired by, I think, New Spring Church in South

Carolina. Um, I know that they have, you know, they, I was checking out their website the other

day and they, you know, they say, you know, you can text, I think, Bible to like a number and they

are, they send a devotional at 6am every morning. And I think that's fantastic. Right. Um, you know,

people wake up in the morning, first thing they reach for is their phone and they're seeing,

you know, a word from the pastor. They're, they're seeing a Bible verse. Um, and so, you know, we're,

we're all on our phones, um, and there's, you know, the email inbox and that's, that is still,

I think a great way to reach people. But, um, I think with private messaging, you know, a lot of the

conversations are taking place in Instagram DMs and in WhatsApp, as you mentioned, um, and in

messenger. And so it's like, okay, well, how do you meet people there in a way that's not

intrusive in a way that's not spammy, but in a way that you can kind of, yeah, encourage people.

And it's not about, you know, sharing, you know, there's a woman's event is happening, you know,

this Sunday, but also just like, you know, here's an encouraging word. Here's a thought. Here's,

um, you know, uh, uh, a point from maybe the sermon on Sunday. Um, I think that's a way that

I think at least here in North America, I think that's an interesting avenue for the church to

kind of explore. Yeah. I love the idea here with the campfires and you alluded to it earlier where

it's your, we're, we're moving away this technology piece and COVID kind of fast-tracked it. I think

we're moving away from a lot of this, this polished, this, this professional, this kind of perfection

in social media and we're moving much more towards a, a, a relational, a conversation,

a much more two-way engaging dialoguing. Uh, I mean, I, I hate to say the word real and authentic,

but I don't, I don't, I'm, I'm losing words, uh, except for that. Like I'm kind of adopting a

millennial language here. Can't we just be authentic here? But the heart of it is, is that is becoming

far more effective in social media with connecting with people than some of the stuff that we were

even doing maybe 18 to 18 months, two years ago. And I was reading some articles this week too,

talking about either the VP of Facebook messenger was talking about trends for 2021. And one of the

trends, um, they highlighted was this, this, this approach of conversational marketing. And I think

there was a stat that like, um, I tweeted, I tweeted it on my Twitter, but many people started messaging

brands last year because people want to be able to, you know, to, to ask questions and, you know,

get the information they need. And they're also expecting it kind of like not real time, but they're

kind of expecting a response, you know, kind of quickly. And so I think we're going to continue to

see that. And so I think, you know, it, whether the word's authentic, I like the word, you know,

just human, I think, I think, um, people are just craving connection. People are just craving,

you know, to be seen and to be heard and to be known. And I think social media with, with all the

different features that are emerging, I think it's, it's moving towards the direction of, of, of

authentic, as you said, a two-way kind of connection. It's conversational. Um, and I think that's really

exciting. And I, even with Twitter, I think this week they announced, um, that they're going to be

launching a communities feature and you look at fleets and you look at, um, uh, I think that they

have a super follow feature that they're going to be introducing. And it's really just Twitter trying

to make more, make it more of an intimate platform, Twitter spaces as well. They're trying to make it

more of an intimate platform where people can connect and you, you, whether it's through voice

or whether it's through, you know, just, you know, tweets that you can put out that maybe not as

polished on your main feed. But I think we're seeing a lot of social media platforms are just

trying to encourage and foster connection. So as a church, like, what are some practical steps that

we could take to help, you know, get the fire stoked? How can we start a digital plot or a digital

campfire? A digital campfire or just, uh, um, private messaging? Well, I mean, a digital campfire.

Yeah. So, um, in the article, I kind of outlined three ways you can kind of approach it. I don't think,

I mean, I, I, I hoped I made it clear was that, you know, I think it definitely takes prayer and

discernment of what would work in your church community. And I think that maybe that's the

first place to start is, you know, knowing who your church community is and your church demographics,

because if you're a church that, you know what, your members don't have smartphones, I don't know,

it's possible. Then maybe texting doesn't work for you or, you know, maybe that maybe WhatsApp

doesn't work for you. So I think starting from a place of prayer and starting from who is your

community. Um, and then also your resources. So, you know, a lot of, sure, there are a lot of small

churches and you have to kind of look at your staff resources and financial resources and kind of say,

okay, what can we do? And so, uh, with private messaging, you know, I know that there's, um,

there's pastors line, I believe it's a service call there's text in church. So that's something

that you could maybe look into and sign up for. And, you know, um, you, I think many churches do this

where, you know, if you're new here, texts, you know, new to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And

that's a way you can kind of, you know, uh, you know, connect with people who are new to your church,

or even if it's whether with whatever giving platform you have, maybe it's having that text

to give. And it's not just people texting, you know, whatever amount, but then hopefully you can

respond back and say, you know, thank you. Um, you know, personalize their name, let them know how

their contribution is making a difference. So that's kind of another, another way they can do

that. Um, and I think in private messaging, some other examples I give is yeah, using WhatsApp groups,

um, you know, or what's, what's that broadcast messages to send out a devotional or send out,

uh, you know, a Bible verse of the day, just something small. Um, again, that's not spammy,

that's not, um, you know, just adding more noise to people's life, but something that adds value,

something that is just, I think, speaking into their lives. Um, so I think that's, that's kind

of some, some specific ways for private messaging, uh, for micro communities. Um, I know, I think when,

when you talk about micro communities, everyone thinks Facebook groups and Facebook groups of course

are huge. Again, I read an article, um, uh, this week that was saying that, uh, 1.8, I believe it's

1.8 billion people use Facebook groups, um, every month and more than, uh, half of the people who are

on Facebook are a member of at least five groups. So Facebook groups are huge, but, um, I think

thinking beyond that, and I think thinking maybe beyond say like your small group ministry, but

like, what are other ways you can build little communities? So some practical ways, um, I kind

of, you know, maybe it's a podcast. You can definitely build community around podcasts like this

one or, um, uh, some other, uh, micro communities, um, my church. So what they launched is an

intergenerational ministry and that's it. That's where, um, they invite older women, older women.

So like in their, I guess you could say forties and up, um, to, and they like younger women as well

to kind of come together. And I attended one of them. This was me about two years ago. Um, and this

was in person, but they actually just re recently launched it online. So on zoom, you have older

women and younger women connecting and they're able to, you know, look at the Bible and just

kind of, you know, talk about issues that women have to deal with. And I think that's, that's

beautiful and that's really special. And that's a way that you can build a community with women

and young women in your church. Um, but some other, other examples, I think that I mentioned

is you version, I think is fantastic. I use them a big fan of it. And the fact that you can

do group devotionals is super awesome. Um, and, uh, I think you can have up to 150 people

in one at one at a time. So, um, yeah, that's great. I think there's a church in Winnipeg

called Oasis church of Winnipeg, Canada, um, Oasis church. And I think they do, um, each

week, I believe they have a different devotional and invite people to, to join in that. So that's

pretty awesome. Um, and then messenger rooms, um, Facebook launched rooms during, uh, the pandemic

and, um, you know, you could use that as a virtual lobby before, after your service, you can use that

as a prayer room, you know, if you want to even just, you know, try a 24, a 20, 24 hour prayer room

and just have it open and people can join. And the great thing about, I think, uh, Facebook rooms

is you don't need a Facebook account to join. So, um, I think that's pretty awesome. Um, and then book

clubs, I just saw connexus church. Um, they, I think in the last week or so connexus church here in

Canada, they, uh, are starting a book club and I believe it's probably gonna be over zoom, but I'm

sure you could also do it on Instagram live or Facebook live. And, um, yeah, you can, uh, launch

a book club and, you know, you can look at, you know, Christian books or business books, depending

on again, your audience and what they would be, uh, appeal, uh, would be appealing to them. Um, so those

are some micro communities ideas, but I think that's the one I'm actually most excited about just

because I think small groups are great. And Jeff, I think you posted that article, uh, this

week about the call of duty and talking about, yeah. And I definitely agreed with the fact

that I think the idea of joining a small group of eight to 12 people is super intimidating.

And I think about, okay, now if someone's online during a pandemic and they're joining an online

group, like how, how intimidating is that? Like you're joining a group of eight to 12 people

who are strangers. You're not even like physically, you know, in their presence. And so, um, you know,

just, just smaller communities of maybe like, you know, two to six, I think, I think that's,

that is where discipleship and connection can happen. Um, and so, yeah, so those are the micro

communities and then shared experiences, practical ways, I think to foster shared experiences. Well,

I think, you know, you have the Sunday service and that is, you know, your biggest shared experience.

And I said in the article, uh, your Sunday service is your bonfire, you know, everyone gathers around

that, but the digital campfires are really what you do throughout the week. And those are just as

important. And so what does that look like? Well, I think in a, in a sassy version of the article

that I read one draft of it, you know, I talk about how, you know, the church talks about doing life

together. And so like, what does that mean now in, in, in 2021 online, what does it mean to do life

together? What, what, what spaces and what digital experiences can you create so that, um, that people can,

can gather and they can, um, gather around shared meaning and they can feel like they belong and

it's authentic and it's engaging. It doesn't necessarily have to be the Sunday service.

I think the Sunday service should have those components, but, you know, some practical ways

that maybe like churches can do that is, um, I think I put forth the idea of, you know, maybe it's a

baking class and proceeds from the baking class go towards a local food bank. Maybe it's having a virtual

prayer and praise night where, you know, you and other churches in your city gather together to have

a virtual, you know, prayer and praise night on zoom and you pray for your city and, you know, you have,

you know, you read the Bible or, you know, you have invite speakers and just, I think, I think the

opportunities for shared experiences are kind of endless. Um, and, um, I've even seen HTV church,

I believe in London. I'm a big fan of, um, you, if you want to talk about even reaching young adults,

right? So on their YouTube channel, um, they did a live stream called healthy conversations. It was a

series. And I thought it was pretty cool because what it is, is that I think it's about a 40 minute

stream. And for the first 20 minutes, it's like, you know, young adults doing a workout together.

And then after that, the same people who are doing the workout, they go and they sit around a table

and have a conversation. It's about the mind or the heart or strength. And I'm just like, yeah,

like, you know, I think sometimes people think, or I don't know if people think this, but, you know,

I think sometimes it's like, okay, it has to be, you know, church and Bible related. But I think

doing life together is about how, how, yes, you can grow spiritually, but how you can have fun

together, how you can go through hard things together, um, and just allow people again to

connect to Jesus, but also connect to each other. So I think that's kind of an overview of just

practical ways of how churches can kind of create digital campfires. Okay. But I still want to read

the sassy version of the article. Yeah, there was a sassy version. I think, as I said, it was a little

bit of it was born out of frustration, I think, because I think it's hard because I think with the

pandemic, so many churches had to pivot online and that was really hard to do. And a lot of churches,

I think, took what they were doing in person and tried to do that online. And I don't think that

works. I think when you're online, you're in a whole different ball game. And with YouTube, like,

you know, you see what vloggers are doing, you see what popular YouTube channels are doing,

the format of their videos. And you can't tell me then that, you know, doing an hour long sermon

is you can't do the same thing online. So it's hard now because, you know, we're approaching a year.

And I think a lot of churches, as I said, I think a lot of churches, you know, they did what they had

to do and they took what they were doing in person and brought it online. But now it's like we're at a

year. It's like, you got to look if that's working. And I don't think it is. I think you have to adapt

to the format, you have to adapt to your audience. And, and yeah, and just I hope the digital campfires

kind of encourages people to kind of start thinking about how you do online church to do it differently.

Yeah, for me, and one of the things that I've always noticed is these digital campfire communities,

number one, I think a lot more people are part of them and don't even realize it.

Um, but, but number two, the intimacy that it's, that it's experienced there. I just don't think

a lot of folks are recognizing kind of what you're talking about, because I've seen this in my own

small group where we've, we've got our in-person meeting or right now we're on zoom, but we used

to be in person. Right. But our WhatsApp chat is much more dynamic than sometimes what happens in

group because, you know, people are more prone to share there. Yeah.

And so I see a lot more of that. And when I see that, I'm like, that's kind of the bigger win

than what I see happening once a week in group, because even if it's something as simple as memes

being shared, like on a regular basis or whatever else, at least you're sharing part of your life,

something that you find funny or something else. And I just wonder if a lot more people are part of

those digital campfires and not even recognizing it at church.

I think they are. And as I said, the stat with Facebook groups, I think everyone's a part of

Facebook groups. And that is a great way to build community and to, uh, to disciple people and give

them a space to share prayer requests and, and just connect with each other. And I think what was

interesting about the report that I read, um, recently is that they said that I think some of

the strongest groups are connected because, uh, they're connected to a local community. They're

connected geographically. So let's say you have like a group that's like, I don't know,

women in finance, but it's women in finance Toronto because they're, you know, there's that,

there's that geographic part that links them. Apparently though that, that strengthens the

bond of the group. And so I'm like, well, churches are, you know, there, there's some churches and

there are digital churches as well, but the churches that do have, you know, physical location

in your city. Yeah. You can, you can connect people. You can, you can, you know, as I said,

you can disciple people, you can provide spaces for worship. I think there's just a huge, I think,

yeah, Facebook groups definitely underutilized when it comes to, to, to connecting with people.

Yeah. I think some of the challenge that, that you're bringing out here in churches, like we know,

hey, let's create community together. But what you're highlighting are opportunities for that

community to be defined digitally. Hey, let's, let's consider that YouVersion Bible reading plan

that a hundred of us are going through or 10 of us are going through or our workplace is going through.

Let's consider that a step towards community. And a lot of churches probably wouldn't go to that

extreme of, of wanting it or wouldn't necessarily see value in, you know, a WhatsApp group to allude

to what Ray was saying with having memes that, that are kind of posted there, doing life together,

kind of creating that community and then building upon it. A lot of churches, at least down here in the

U S would probably push back that and say, no, we've got some standards, uh, that are at a different

level. But I love your heart, uh, towards this of, Hey, let's recognize that a digital community is a

digital community. Um, which really to the places. And the thing that really challenged me of, of your

three was your view of shared experiences and having that be what, one of the campfires I'm listening.

And I've said this publicly coming as a guy who's created tens of thousands of church worship services in

his lifetime. Um, I, the idea of online worship services for me, it's, is kind of fading physical, digital.

Like it just, honestly, it doesn't have the spark for me that it did once. Um, maybe, maybe God's doing

something in my life. Maybe I need to awaken myself and realize there is a purpose in the large gathering.

Still, I'm, I'm just being like transparent and honest here. Right. So, and even like what we even

see in context of, of Barna, 80% of people, uh, 80% of people that are cold to Christ that are not

Christians are not interested in your physical or digital service. And so for me, this idea of a

shared experience that maybe is not within the structure of the typical weekend service to me is

interesting because now we're looking at maybe forgive somebody's going to freak out when I say

this and I'm sorry, but maybe we're throwing away the old model of, of what the weekend service look

like. And maybe we're coming back with a new model, a new way of how this could operate. Uh, and so some

of the freedom to kind of explore and do something in here, I think is beautiful. Like I'm even looking at

some of your examples and once again, okay. So like some of the stuff that I'm saying, okay, Jeff,

where are you doing communion? We can figure that out. But what I'm more suggesting is there,

maybe there's opportunities for us to engage in large gatherings, uh, a multi-day fasting or prayer

challenge with down downloadable journal, uh, a virtual small groups retreat with worship music,

guest speakers, prayer nights is what you talked about. Um, you know, even things, and this is maybe

extreme and this is, okay, I'm not calling this a church service, but hold a virtual cooking or

baking class with donations going towards a food bank or shelter. Like these are options

for us to gather people together in, in a social space and relationally connect with people.

I have seen some churches partake in this, just maybe not as intentionally as, as what

we would have thought. But for instance, um, just here in Miami, I know that the Voo church,

uh, they, they've got like a completely downloadable Bible study journal that they encourage their

church to go along with them, you know, throughout the year. And then their groups have been meeting

online. And in some of these channels, I've got friends that have been part of that. CF,

Jeff, you may remember like a while back we did a downloadable fasting journal. We encouraged our

folks, Hey, look, we're going to be doing a 45 day fast. And, you know, you can download this

journal here on our website at cfmiami.org slash fast. And, and it gave them like clear instructions

on how to do that. And so those are some encouraging things that I think we can take, uh, some of the,

the future things that I think that you're calling on as far as like expanding, uh, you know,

the digital campfires that we take part in to go into interest to me are some of the most fascinating

because, you know, you talk about like doing, uh, a bake show thing, uh, for, for Jeff and I, it might

be, Hey, look, WandaVision's finale is tonight. We're going to be doing a talk about it here.

Come join us. And things like that, that are, you know, geeky and nerdy to some, but to us,

it's pretty awesome. Might be the kind of campfire that draws a few people to come and see.

I think, um, one of the other examples I mentioned was, um, again, HTV church, they have,

they launched a Twitch channel for their youth. And I believe most of the streams so far have just

been like, I, it's probably, it's probably their youth pastors, um, but just playing video games and

just, you know, inviting people to come in and chat. And I think that's fantastic, especially because

I'm like, you know, Twitch, Twitch is a platform where younger people are. So yeah, I think,

I think Jeff, you kind of touched on it that maybe, you know, things outside of the Sunday

service are really kind of, uh, uh, I think it's the term low barrier. Yeah. A low barrier way for

people to maybe get introduced to the church or just introduced to people and, and, and people who

are real and people who are being authentic. Um, and so I, I think that the idea of shared experiences

is, is really exciting because you are gathering people hopefully around a shared interest or a shared

purpose. Um, and when I talk about shared purpose, um, I think about, uh, the, the power of moments by

Chip and Dan Heath. It's a book that I really love. And he talks about, um, you know, yeah,

shared experiences, how it's kind of hard to gather people around a shared passion, but it's easier to

kind of, uh, gather people around a shared purpose that people can take ownership of a mission. They can

then go away and they can do their part. And so, um, I'm like, again, again, the church has a great

mission. That's probably the best mission. And so what are ways that you can connect people around

that, but also in a way that's not always like churchy, I guess, in a way, again, it's about doing

life together. And so the hard parts, the fun parts, you know, the learning parts, the growing parts.

Yeah. Where, how can you make spaces that are authentic, that are engaging? Um, I think that's

kind of the question and the challenge. Let me, let me shift gears. Cause I, cause I think that's a

really interesting point that, that we can cross over on. So shared purpose, like you're, you're a

millennial, you're, you're, you're 26. I just Googled, I couldn't remember what the report was,

but Barna did a publication at some point within 2020 that said 50% of, uh, millennials don't agree

with evangelism. Like the idea of, of that. Um, I'm not necessarily asking you to speak for your

entire, um, you know, whatever the term there is. It's what, what is the label for, for like that age

for your generation, our generation, for all of us, for all of us, speak, speak for everybody,

all the millennials, Ray, Ray's a millennial as well. Like you're, you're on a little on the older

side. I'm not, I'm a millennial. Um, my wife is a reluctant millennial. Like she wants to be Gen X so

bad and they keep like revoking her card. It's a dangerous thing going on here.

But, um, there, there's an interesting point here because like we're being told, Hey, uh, evangelism,

at least within your generation is, is a bad thing. Um, but what, what I'm hearing for you is

being on purpose is the thing that you're looking for. And it's actually a thing that I hear within

that millennial generation, getting people on purpose is really the challenge. So like,

talk to me a little bit, even if it's just like your, your perspective, maybe not your generation

or generation, if you can comfortable speaking to at least what you see, um, like as, as a millennial,

what's your view really, when it gets down to the heart of, of evangelism?

Okay. My view, cause I'm hesitant to speak on my, my generation, but my view is, or what I've

learned and I'm learning is that evangelism isn't a choice. Like when you're called to be a disciple

of Jesus, it, it's, it is sharing your faith. Um, and I know I've said this to my leadership too,

where, you know, as with the great commission, I believe, you know, Jesus doesn't call us to,

you know, get more views or get more subscribers. No, he calls us to make disciples. And, and so,

you know, it's not, it's not something optional. It's something that, you know, if you're uncomfortable

with doing, it's something you, if you want to grow in your faith, it's something that you have to,

you know, slowly get comfortable with doing. Um, I think sometimes the hesitation that comes from

evangelism and witness is I think we've just evolved into a culture of not wanting to offend people

and not wanting to make someone uncomfortable. And, and unfortunately, because of that, it's like,

well, you're afraid that if, you know, if you text your friend and say, Hey, you know, would you want

to check out the church service? The person's going to think, Oh, they're trying to convert me. And like,

and so you kind of have that fear, I think, but I wonder if the solution to that is, you know,

it's baby steps with, in terms of shape and sharing your faith and, you know, letting people know that,

Hey, sharing your faith might be, um, you know, I think in you version, they have the, uh, the verse

of the day. Maybe you just share that to your Instagram story and you share that and you just

share that every day and you, you know, or maybe it's, you know, you, you ask on Snapchat, Hey,

does anyone have any prayer requests? And you might not hear back from anyone, but I think there are

little small ways. And I think the word evangelism can seem like this big, scary word. I think,

especially in Toronto, um, you know, you might think it's the person holding the sign that says,

you know, repent, but it's really, I think the small ways of sharing your faith. And then the

other thing with evangelism is I'm huge about relationship and people ask me quite a few times,

like, how do you reach millennials? And I'm like, it's about relationship. It's about, you know,

I know that you care for me. I know that you want to connect with me. I know that you're going to

accept me as I am, but also, you know, speak the truth and love to me. It's about making those

relationships. And so sometimes I think the best way to share your faith is just, you know,

following Jesus and obeying his commands and being compassionate, being kind. Um,

that's also a way of evangelism is, is truly living out your faith. Um, and so I think,

I feel like from my personal experiences that under, like that hasn't been educated,

that hasn't been maybe preached on, that hasn't been made clear. And so that's why evangelism is

now this big, scary word, or sometimes has these negative connotations to it because people don't

understand maybe that it's really, it can be really simple. And also like the Holy, the Holy Spirit,

it's huge. Like that you can't, like the Holy Spirit will help you, you know, know what to say

in that moment. And so, you know, you're not doing on your own strength. You're not doing on your own

wisdom is that, you know, God is with you, you know, through it all and he will prepare you and help

you say the right thing. So I guess that's my, my nutshell on evangelism, but yeah, relationship,

I think is huge. Um, and I think if I could tell a short story, uh, a personal experience is that,

um, I think it was, um, after I graduated university, I, um, I wanted to do some running.

So I, uh, I don't know if you guys have the running room in, in the United States. Uh,

the running room is kind of like this place you can go buy running shoes and gear, but they also

offer learn to run programs. And so I was like, okay, I'm going to sign up for this learn to run

program, this 5k program. And so I went by myself and I went the first day and, you know,

there was no one there my age, but I could see people who loved running. I could see people whose

lives were changed by running. Like they talked about how much, you know, running helped them.

I could see people who, who had made, you know, great friends through running. And these are people

who are like my mom's age. So like that's for my mom on blast, but like, you know, in their forties

and fifties. And so, um, you know, I went through the program and I missed a couple of weeks. Nobody

really noticed, you know, people were signing up for races at the end, but no one really kind of

held me accountable. And I didn't really end up enjoying the experience. And it was afterwards,

I was like, this is the experience I think for a lot of millennials at church, they go to church

and they see people who love Jesus. They see people whose lives have been changed by Jesus. They see

people who have made great relationships, you know, either through connect groups or serving and they

see that, but you know, they go and they, they're just a number or they go and they're just, you know,

they sit in the back seat and no one's keeping them accountable. No one's connecting with them,

or maybe they fill out a connect card and they just, they fall off or they drop off some of the

way. And it's just really about relationship. I can't even say that enough. It's, it's, it's about

relationship. I think that for my running room experience, if, you know, I had someone either the same age

as me, if I had someone, you know, keeping me accountable when I wasn't there, if I had someone

who really cared about my running progress, then maybe the experience would have turned out

differently. And same thing with the church. If I go into a church and I know that, you know, people

care about me and people care about my spiritual growth and people want to connect with me and get

to know me, that's definitely going to, going to change, change my experience, I think of church.

Yeah. I just even want to add to that running, um, analogy. I, I, in, in my thirties, uh, I used to

run and it's funny. I turned 40 and my entire body fell apart within 48 hours of my birthday. It's,

it's like teeth falling out. Knees are destroyed. Oh yeah. It's like that, man. When 40, 40 was 39 to

40 was a massive jump. But in my thirties, I was, I was, I was a runner. I was running half marathons,

uh, was very active athletically in that space. You just look at me at now at 43, you wouldn't think

that. But in, in my thirties, like there were, I would run a hundred plus miles a month. And for me,

kind of tying it back to these, these digital campfires, uh, I, I used the, the Nike plus app at that

time. And, and I had a community of people that were scattered across the country, not even within

my own city that were encouraging me. Matt Mahaffey, his wife, Janie is, is one of my coworkers now at

Stadia. Matt Mahaffey was a pastor at a church, maybe in Pittsburgh at the time I was in Austin,

Texas. And we had a competition to see who could hit a hundred miles in a month first. And, and we were

dogging each other. And there were mornings that I'm getting out of bed at five 30 in the morning

because it's Austin, July, where it gets to 110 temperature outside in the afternoon. And I want

to run before the sun comes up and I'm doing this because I want to show it to that guy, Matt Mahaffey,

who is a friend of mine, but on the other side of the country and the, the community that's possible

in digital space that, that influence. Um, but now if, even if we look at it within that and realize,

hey, if we want to be effective with evangelism, it has to be done through relational. It's, it's,

it's interesting. Uh, but that same Barna, 40% of people who are not, Barna report December,

2020 digital evangelism, 40% of people that are cold to Christ. They do not have relationship with

Christ. If they have spiritual questions, they're going to go to friends who they think can answer

spiritual questions. They're going to go to the friends that they see leading a spiritual life and

ask them questions of it. Now that's an opportunity. Hey friends, you need to be ready to have some of

these conversations with people. Don't, don't be fearful. What's interesting within that same Barna

report, 90% of the people that did have those conversations with friends reported back that it

went well. It was not the train wreck. It was not like, oh dear God, I hate Jesus now because that

person who thought she was a Christian didn't know how to answer those questions. She did know how to

answer those questions. Maybe she needs to learn how to answer them better, but the, the relationship

component is, is being effective where it's happening. We as a church, we just need to be ready to embrace

that maybe even more in this season. It sounds like from, from your generation, uh, Clavan, it's,

it's a, it's a necessity for us. Yeah. It's, it's, it's about relationship. It really is. Um,

and I think, I think that's interweaved, I think through, through, through all three types of digital

campfires, whether it's private messaging, you know, again, it's not about, you know, necessarily one

way communication, but is there a way that you can kind of, you know, you know, have that back and

forth conversation and build relationship. The same thing with micro communities is, is creating spaces

where people can gather around, whether it be their neighborhood. Cause I said, um, there are some

churches that launch Facebook groups and their neighborhood specific. So like, you know, we have

different neighborhoods in Toronto. So you would have a Facebook group for each kind of different

neighborhood. Um, you know, that's an opportunity again, to build relationship, um, and then shared

experiences, you know, again, providing, uh, uh, whether it be something, you know,

like a spiritually or something fun or social, you know, again, where people can build relationship

and get, get beyond like, you know, just kind of the surface level, you know, the, the,

I don't want to say shallow, but like get beyond, you know, the, the surface level, small talk,

that's the word I'm looking for. It's good to be on the small talk and really just like,

yeah, get to know people. Um, that's, I think a church, a church that can, that can build

relationships with people. Um, I think that's, that's a church that, that will be a growing

church. I don't know. That's maybe my opinion, but yeah.

What are you thinking over there, Ray?

This is interesting. I just had a conversation with my friend who's also a millennial this

morning. And, uh, and he's, you know, he's, he's an average church attender online and,

you know, he's a millennial as well. And we were talking about this and he was telling

me about the guilt that he feels in terms of imposing his belief system on somebody else.

And that's why he's afraid to evangelize. And I think part of the reason is we were kind

of unearthing this discussion is we kind of taught people that evangelism is more about

apologetics than sharing something that's benefiting you. Right. And sharing something that's like

changed your life in a good way. So for instance, when all of us got a smartphone, we had no problem

telling somebody about the joy of their, of the smartphone. And man, how much easier my life

is, or how much more distracted I am, or Hey, look at these YouTube videos, or look at

these, you know, these funny clips. We had no problem sharing that because we were talking

about something that benefited us, even if they didn't want to hear it. Ah, stop talking

about that. Oh, I've heard enough about that phone. But for some reason, when it comes to

faith, all of a sudden that falls under the guise of, well, we don't discuss politics and

we don't discuss religion because those are taboo because we feel like it's more about defense

than it is about sharing something that's actually changing our life for the better. And I, you

know, in terms of relationship, I think in a lot of ways, you know, relationship, even

where relationship exists, I still feel like people are afraid to share their faith because

they feel like it's more about defense or proving the other person wrong and not necessarily just

about sharing something that's changed their life. And I think that's something that maybe

Clevenie could speak into. Like, are there better ways that we can just talk about, Hey, look,

this is what Jesus did for me. I think given your situation, if you would consider following

him, look at what he could do for you too. Yeah. I think that's powerful. I, sometimes I'm a little

bit hesitant at that approach just because, um, as someone who like strives to like be empathetic,

it's like, you know, you do, you do want to, you know, if someone's going through a difficult time

in their life, you do want to be able to sit with them in that moment and to, you know, just like,

you know, not, you know, just be like, I don't know how helpful it is to kind of be like Jesus

solves everything as much as I, as I believe that. Oh yeah. I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't know

if it's, if it's, so again, I think the, the leading, I want to leave room for the Holy spirit

because I think, I think in that moment, whatever it is, I think that's most helpful. I think you will

be equipped to say, to say what that person needs to hear. Yeah. Is there, are there different ways?

Yeah. I don't know. I think, yeah, I think it could be beneficial to kind of be like, yeah,

this is how God is working in my life. But I, I don't know. I'm trying to think like I had a

conversation with my best friend right now and I said, Hey, do you want to hear how God is working

in my life right now? Like I just, I don't, yeah. How would that go? And maybe, maybe that's the

thing. Maybe I'm overthinking it. Maybe I just need to just, just, just say it and just go from

there. But, well, and that's where I think the campfire can kind of be, can kind of be a thing

because right in the campfire, people don't just bring their interests together, but they bring

their problems. And Hey, listen, I'm going through a hard time in my relationship. I'm going through

this. Well, and that's where that introduces the thought process of, listen, how can I pray for you?

As opposed to the fear of, well, I don't necessarily want to push my belief system, even though I know

it's kind of what you need right now. Um, and you know, and so that's where I know that a lot of us

kind of wrestle with that tension of, Hey, we live in a pluralistic society. We all want to like

encourage people to have their beliefs, but at the same time, as a Christian, we really do believe

that we have the answer. Yeah. I got to believe if, if we as Christians, if we lived our lives by the

beatitudes at this point, I think the world would see us in a completely different light. And I think

that would solve a lot of our problems. If you know, I'm trying to my desperate right now to even try to

remember all of them, but blessed are the poor in spirit. Blessed are they that mourn, uh, blessed are

the meek, blessed are the humble, blessed, you know, and it's just all of, of that. Um, if we presented

our lives, our conversations in such a way where it's not, Hey, Jesus solves all your problems,

let's go. But it's, it's, it's, it's more of, uh, I can relate to you. I've gone through the same

things. This is what's helped me. And in meekness, I believe it can help you. Can I explain, can I show,

can I share? No. Okay. Um, I'm, I'm here to help. Once again, I'm, I'm meek. I'm here to help you in

this situation. Let me help you how I can. Um, and that's where I think that maybe some things got

lost historically. Um, and it's not even like, I don't want to even make this about the millennials

thing. I think that we, as, as generations we've, we've screwed up. Uh, we've, we've pushed too hard.

We've, we've stated too loudly. We created the cancel culture before the social media, Twitter was

even around. And as a result of us, us Christians, um, yeah, 2021 is hard. Uh, congratulations. We

made it hard. Uh, and, and so unfortunately it's generations like yours that are going to maybe pay

a little bit as a result of, and it's going to be a struggle to kind of work through, but we, as a

church, we've got to work it through because the church, honestly, over 2000 years has faced probably

larger challenges than the ones that's before us right now. Uh, and God's found a way to get it

through. So God's going to get us through this as well. All right. Um, awesome. Any, any, I like,

I'm kind of landing the plane here, but would love to keep going. Any, any closing thoughts,

any ideas, uh, Ray, just as we're processing all this, what are you thinking right now?

Well, you know, it's funny as you were talking about the Beatitudes, one of them is not

blessed are they who dunk on the other person. And, and so we got to get away from that style of

evangelism, right? Of man, I'm going to come in here with a hot take. That's going to rock everybody.

Hey, but consider maybe blessed are they who spark conversation around a digital campfire

in order for the sake of reaching somebody else for Jesus or for the sake of discipling

somebody else. And so, you know, I think it's wonderful that you're sparking these ideas and

these conversations within the church, because we need more of that. And not necessarily like

you're saying in service hours, but really just more in private conversations that can also

take place digitally that help people understand and how to get through life, especially in a time

where we're, we're connected, but we're disconnected and we feel so far away.

Clavan, as we're, thank you for jumping on this. This has been a great conversation.

Just landing the plane here. Any, any closing thoughts from, from you?

Uh, I think my closing thoughts is just the same of my closing thoughts in the article and that

people just want, especially online, they want to be seen. They want to be known. They want to be

heard. They want to be valued. They want to, they want to belong. And again, you know, as I say,

like the solution, yes, Jesus. But again, you know, it's, it's thinking through as a church is

like, how can we meet people where they are and, and, and connect with them, um, and relate to them

and build relationships so that they do feel seen. They do feel heard. They do feel known. They feel

valued. Um, I think that's, that's the church being a church. That's the church being the light of the

online world. As I said, is, is meeting that need or pointing, pointing people towards Jesus who

ultimately meets that need.

Yeah. Amen. So many of our problems are solved by posture, uh, and within the church. I, I do believe

that in 2021 and I've, I've loved this conversation, uh, with it. We're going to, Ray, we're going to

have to bring some more millennials on. Like we, we do, we do the old guys. Well, in my, my, my phone

book, my, my little black book of contacts has, has some guys who are dated maybe a little bit. We need

to bring, bring in some, some young blood here. So love this conversation and looking forward to,

uh, some more, uh, happening. So, Hey, uh, Clavan, once again, thank you for, for jumping on here.

Uh, for Ray, for Clavan, this is Jeff with the church digital and stadia church planning. Thanks

for jumping on the podcast and, uh, we'll see you on the next show. Y'all have a good day.