EP126: Jared & Angie Hughes and the Co-vocational Approach to a Digital Only Church

All right, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

Once again, it's powered by Stadia Church Planting.

We're talking digital-only expression of church,

by the way, and I love what I'm doing,

what I get to do with Stadia

in helping people plant digital-only

to start digital-only expressions of church,

to help them start churches literally without walls.

And so this is a phenomenal aspect of my life right now.

I love it, and I love this conversation

because I get to talk with digital-only planters,

people that are starting and that are running

arguably probably one of the most successful

digital-only churches in the Western Hemisphere.

So we're talking today with Jared and Angie Hughes.

So they, honestly, they were not even on my radar pre-COVID,

didn't know who they were,

like in the context of digital ministry.

And so when they pop up here with Hope City Church

in this COVID season quickly,

I kind of wondered, where'd you come from?

What's your story?

What's your background?

How did I not know who you were?

And it's not egotistical on my part.

I just really love talking with people

and love hearing the stories of digital church

and online ministry,

and they were not on my radar.

And I quickly discovered why in this conversation,

because they didn't start digital ministry.

They were novices,

even walking into the beginning of this COVID season.

So in this COVID season,

instead of trying to push back to the physical building,

they actually gave up.

They passed over a building

that a denomination was going to give them

because they saw more potential in discipleship

and disciple-making done in digital space.

That's right.

So they gave up a building

that somebody was going to give them

because they wanted to focus on digital ministry.

Beautiful, beautiful story.

And some of the successes that they've seen,

some of the opportunities they've had to even merge,

Angela Craig's Pursuit Church Live

in this 2021 year

has actually merged with Hope City.

Angela's obviously great friends with the podcast,

been on lots,

but as a lead pastor,

is transitioning into a different role,

more towards equipping planters as well.

And so she is giving literally Hope City a church.

She's literally giving them her church,

Pursuit Church Live.

Hope City has become nothing

in the beginning of COVID season

all the way to a giga church,

arguably within 15 months.

What does that look like within the church?

How does that look within leaders?

By the way, the leaders themselves,

Jared and Angie,

they're not even full-time pastors with the church.

They've opted to go bivocational

where they have outside jobs.

What are they doing?

Why are they doing this?

What's the mindset

behind not going fully into the ministry

and instead diversifying

and doing multiple things

in addition to arguably

the largest digital-only church

in the Western hemisphere?

So this is a really fascinating conversation

that we're digging into here.

Once again, we're bringing myself,

Jeff with the Church Digital,

as well as Jared and Angie Hughes,

the lead pastors,

the co-lead pastors

of probably the largest digital-only church

in the Western hemisphere,

Hope City Church,

in a conversation that I'm simply calling

the co-vocational approach

to a digital-only church.

Okay, everybody, here you go.

We went to the Highlands Church Conference,

Pastor Chris Hodges,

and God spoke to us,

spoke to me when we were there

and said,

I called you to lead

and you're not doing it.

And so we came back.

I came back from that.

We resigned at Timberlake

as the campus pastor

with the plan of just going back

into lead pastor work.

And it was incredible what happened.

You know, Ben Sigmund,

you know,

he said,

yeah, it's crazy.

Yeah, he helped us

along the campus church.

Timberlake Church was an amazing God thing

because he was like,

you know,

why don't we do this?

Why don't I give you

the location there in Bothell?

We'll give you all the gear,

all the stuff,

launch it as your new church,

become part of the,

you know,

the Free Methodist Church

PNWC conference.

And so we did.

So October,

or January 2018,

we relaunched that campus

as Campus Church.

And pretty much by that,

yeah,

2018, right?

Yep.

So January 2018,

we,

Canvas Church emerged.

And then we felt like

we were just getting

into the groove

of church planting

when COVID hit,

which a lot of us

kind of put in the same exact.

Yeah, so, yeah.

So, you know,

like Craig Whitney.

So it's so great

with Craig Whitney.

Man,

that guy challenged us so much.

It was,

he asked,

he asked me one question was,

Jared,

what's it,

what's a disciple?

When you think of a disciple,

what's a disciple?

It sounds like something

Craig would say.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I didn't like it too much.

Anyways,

no, I did,

but it was really challenging

because, you know,

you sit back and you think,

and he goes,

besides somebody

that reads their Bible and prays.

Okay, yeah.

Because what's a disciple?

If somebody said,

what's a disciple of Canvas Church?

And that really led us

on this path,

I think,

where we're at today.

It was a massively great question.

We laughed,

got angry

and,

but it makes you think like,

what are you trying to produce?

What are you trying to,

what's it trying to look like?

You know,

for us,

you know,

the background that we have

in ministry,

you know,

we know a lot,

we just know a lot of people

as well as you do,

a lot of movers and shakers

in the kingdom of God.

And,

you know,

we've been around the block

a few times.

And for us,

the,

if we can edit this out

if we want to,

it's fine.

But I think the blow up

and show up model

is done,

you know.

Not everybody,

I had someone tell me once,

unless you,

unless you can raise

$300,000 to $500,000

don't even plan a church,

just go join someone's team.

And to me,

that's,

you know,

if I can raise $500,000,

I'm probably not going to

plan a church,

to be honest with you.

I'll probably do something different.

I just think

if there's so many

called people,

if that is the narrative

that's out there,

that you have to have

the ability to raise

hundreds and thousands

of dollars,

your network has to be

so significant

and so massive

that you can actually

go ask so many people,

you're so well connected,

you're probably

not planting a church,

you know.

And so,

maybe you are,

that's a few

and far between.

Most likely,

those that can raise

$300,000 to $500,000

to plan a church

are part,

probably have some

mega movement,

which is wonderful,

that's not bad,

we were part of a mega movement.

They're probably

well known somehow

socially media already.

They have a good

following of people.

That's not the norm.

That's not the everyday person.

You know,

Hope City Church,

our tagline is

Hope City Church

is about bringing hope

to everyday people.

There's a lot of pastors,

a lot of people

who are called by God

who are just everyday people

who do not have

the ability

to raise millions of dollars

or hundreds of thousands

of dollars.

And if that's all

the narrative

they're hearing,

though,

the only story

they're hearing is that,

then,

and with the thought

of,

you know,

if you can't do that,

don't start a church,

then they're probably

sitting on teams

they're not supposed to be.

So if you're starting,

if you're sitting on a team

but God has called you

to lead

and you're sitting on a team,

then you're being

disobedient to God.

So what's the worst part?

The worst part is

being disobedient to God.

There's lots of people

that I know personally

that God has called them

and I know that God's called them.

It's clear to lead.

But they like being on a team

of thousands of people

or hundreds of people

and they're worried about,

you know,

what if my church

is only 50 people?

You know,

but you're not,

you're not doing

what God has called you to do.

And that,

and that's,

to me,

is the big,

the biggest

travesty

with some of the,

the church planting

or the,

the,

some things we've seen

in America.

If it's working,

then why would we have,

why do we have so much

decline in the church

in America?

Well,

I think,

you know,

I think too,

Craig,

Craig did,

he asked us so many questions

that challenged just,

a lot of stuff is out of,

I'm talking about

as Craig,

so we'll blame Craig.

Yeah,

out of the thing,

you know,

out of just like,

okay,

what is church?

What does church really look like?

You know,

how do,

how do we,

you know,

how do we,

you know,

pivot if we have to pivot?

You know,

what's success?

What's not success?

And what does success look like

to us?

And so,

out of those questions,

when,

when COVID hit last year,

it honestly,

what,

how he asked us those questions

and got us to think

outside of the box.

And then our kids

who work in the tech industry

that were like,

mom and dad,

you guys need to have

a social media presence

before we start,

you know,

planting an in-person church.

And so,

we looked at those things

and I remember our first Sunday

that we,

nobody can meet

and we did

online church

as Canvas Church

and afterwards,

we're like,

oh,

wow.

Yeah.

This,

this isn't anything

like what we thought

digital ministry

looked like

and,

that's a good,

that's a,

yeah,

that's a great point.

Wait,

wait,

wait a second.

Are you,

are you saying that you,

not even,

like in the beginning

of COVID season,

you were not even thinking

digital only?

No.

So,

in this COVID season,

you've managed to launch

a digital only church

and,

and merge with

Pursue Church Live,

arguably the largest

digital only church

in the United States.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Holy cow.

Well,

and we did it,

honestly,

there was no mental pivot

until last fall.

Yeah.

So we did this

thinking we're,

I mean.

So,

so what happened was,

so we launched

our church in Bothell

and then it shut down.

We were meeting at a school,

typical church.

Yeah.

So no schools were open.

No schools were open.

So we were,

we were in the process

of,

of just,

you know,

we just got,

started getting our feet

underneath us.

COVID happened.

Yeah.

And so we,

we like,

what are we,

what are we going to do?

You know,

we probably have,

you know,

400 people

following us on,

as far as Canvas Church.

Yeah.

On social media.

On social media.

Yeah.

And we just started

broadcasting from our apartment.

Yeah.

And with our iPhones

and we're like,

man,

this is great,

you know?

And so doing that

and then,

you know,

engagement and stuff

that began to happen

even on that first Sunday

to us was awesome.

So that started in March

and then by September,

Yeah.

October,

we've grown from 400

to over 2000 people.

And we're,

we're like probably September

and we're in the process

of,

you know,

talking with our,

with our superintendent,

superintendent,

Michael Forney,

who's amazing leader.

If people don't know

who Michael Forney is

and peanut,

I'm going to blow this guy up.

That's a guy

that people need to talk to.

I'm going to tell you right now.

That man knows what he's,

not only is he intelligent,

not only is he educated,

which is intelligent,

he is tapped into the Holy Spirit.

I tell you right now,

that guy is somebody

that people need,

need to know.

Amazing,

amazing,

amazing leader.

And so,

Yeah.

Well,

no,

and I was going to say,

I mean,

and he challenged us,

you know,

I feel like Craig and Michael

in these last three years,

honestly had gotten us

to think outside

of the traditional church box.

And which I feel like

More so than anybody else,

I think.

Yeah.

And we were,

I mean,

I would say traditional church people,

even when COVID hit,

but when COVID hit

and we began to see

what could happen.

And I'd say fall of last year,

we began to have a discussion

because we had the potential

of actually being given a building

and we could go back

into a building once,

you know,

COVID was over

or,

you know,

possibly,

you know,

continue to stay in this space.

So last end of summer,

beginning of fall,

Jared and I began to talk about

just,

you know,

the relationships

that we're building online,

the discipleship

that is happening

is greater for us

than it has been

in the last 10 years of ministry.

And so that for us

was a pivotal point.

like the personal engagement,

you know,

the personal like connection

that we were just noticing,

like,

again,

not really understanding

what was going on.

Yeah.

Angie and Angela Craig

met in August.

No,

I think it was like September,

October.

Yeah.

October.

The same time that everything

is just going to go.

Yeah.

You know,

they kind of connected.

Michael introduced them

and they connected.

Hope City Church

was growing digitally.

In October,

November of last year,

we had to make a decision

whether to,

there's a building

within our conference

that we were offered

that we could,

we could have,

you know,

just get back to normal church

when church came back.

Debt-free building,

property,

right in downtown Bothell,

beautiful place.

You know,

everything that you would think of

as a pastor,

like,

yeah,

of course.

And Michael asked us a question

and he said,

I'm 98%.

The building's yours.

The property's yours.

You know,

I mean,

he goes,

do you think

that if you guys

went back

back to typical church,

which is not bad,

you know,

traditional church,

is it going to hinder

what God is doing

through you right now?

And Jeff,

I sat in that chair

eating Mexican food,

sat back and went,

hmm,

let me think on this.

We went home,

we talked,

we prayed,

talked to our team

and I'm like,

I think we're going to do what,

I mean,

every pastor in the world,

their goal,

unfortunately,

is to get a building.

Or a bigger building.

Yeah,

or a bigger building.

Pastors,

listen,

if you're watching,

that should not be your goal.

Listening,

that should not be your goal.

Your goal should not be

to get a bigger building

or a building.

That should not be the goal

of the ministry.

The goal of the ministry

is to reach people

who don't know Jesus

who are lost for eternity.

That's the goal.

Now,

buildings are not bad.

We owned a building,

had a building,

sold a building,

gave a building away,

turned down a building

and property

that's worth millions of dollars.

Not because we figured

some things out.

It's just,

you have to hear

from the Holy Spirit.

If the Holy Spirit

is telling you

to get a building,

get a building.

But if it's just

the traditional route

of ministry,

then don't do it.

Well,

and that's what I love about,

you know,

even go back to Craig

and Michael,

they challenge us

to get outside of the box.

Think outside of the box

and then in that

you can allow

the Holy Spirit

to direct you

and I feel like

that's really where

2020 led us.

For sure,

for sure.

And so we came back

and we did the,

we did,

I think,

I have some friends

of mine

who are like,

you're nuts.

Well,

they've already

taught you're nuts

anyway.

For years.

So we turned it down

and we decided

we're,

and not just us,

our team.

Yeah.

We decided

that we're going

to go fully digital

and

in January 2021,

we relaunched

Canvas Church

as Hope City Church.

Hope City.

And that's where

Hope City came out of.

You know,

Hope City Church

was launched

in January 2021.

In February,

Angela Craig

reached out to us.

Yeah,

the end of February.

End of February

and asked

if we would,

if we would consider

being one of the

four or five candidates,

four candidates

to take over

Pursuit Church Live.

And so,

Which came completely

out of the book.

Out of the book.

Yeah,

we were like,

Yeah,

I'm just like,

what?

You know,

by that time,

you know,

Angela was mentoring us,

giving us good pointers.

I mean,

just everything you think

about was like,

you know,

read her book 17 times

and Nona Jones

and other people,

of course.

And so by that,

you know,

by January this year,

we're fully like,

God is leading us.

This is where we're going

to go.

Yeah.

And when she reached

out to us

and this,

the momentum

of that

and this,

I think the great

like understand,

yeah,

you know,

to be,

we're like,

sure,

I mean,

okay,

you know,

what does that even mean?

No one really knows

at the time.

So we went through

that process

and to go through

that process

with the Assemblies

of God

and with her board

and with her board,

her board

after we met

with them

unanimously like,

this is the couple

to take over

Pursuit Church Live,

met with the Assemblies team,

they approved it.

Yes,

this is the couple for it.

To us,

it's overwhelming,

you know,

to think that

that God would,

not only that God

would choose us,

that Pastor Angela

would,

you know,

even consider us

to be,

you know,

you know,

we were,

we're the only candidates

that weren't Assemblies,

you know,

and,

and we'd only been in,

honestly,

we'd only been in

digital ministry

since March of 2020.

So,

I mean,

we're novices.

We don't,

we're just kind of

figuring it out

and trying things

that maybe nobody else would

because we have no idea

what we're doing.

Yeah,

it's great.

We have no idea

what we're doing.

So it's awesome.

You know,

well,

it's,

it's amazing

to me here.

It's amazing

that it's like

you weren't,

when the rest of,

the majority of churches

are trying to get back

to February 2020,

let's get back

to that physical space.

Let's,

let's,

let's put pressure.

Let's drive everybody

towards it.

You're,

you're one of the few

that,

that I've heard

that is a hundred percent

sold the opposite direction.

It's like this,

this,

this digital thing

is incredible.

This online ministry,

there's so much potential.

There's so much more,

more power for,

uh,

discipleship and intimacy

and some of this stuff.

And,

and God rewards you

with like a giga church

worth of people

handed to you

on,

on a silver platter.

Like this is,

I,

I had,

it was funny.

Like I questioned myself,

honestly,

I'm like,

how have I never heard

of these people?

When Angela mentioned

your name for me

a couple of times,

it was just like,

I was like,

I've never heard of them.

And it's,

well,

it's because you weren't around.

You weren't doing anything

in this digital space.

This is,

I mean,

I,

I'm literally,

I'm totally taken aback.

I was not expecting that,

uh,

in this conversation.

It's beautiful to see

how God's moved

in this with you all.

It's wonderful.

Jeff is like,

you know,

not,

we're so sold on this.

You know,

the more that we study,

the more we realize,

you know,

um,

you're going to know

more of these stats

than probably more than not.

And you'll share it.

If you do,

I'll be like,

okay,

we'll add that.

You know,

um,

the fascinating thing is

out of a period of my life

about five years ago,

I was struggling deep,

struggling deep with anxiety

and,

uh,

panic attacks.

And I started,

I started an online game

just to do something

to get my mind off of

ministry.

I,

for the most part,

I mean,

what in life.

And I started playing

this online game

and to look back at that,

some of these guys,

five years,

I'm still playing,

five years later,

we're very close friends.

I mean,

we,

some of us,

we've never met.

We've never met in person.

We probably never will meet.

They're all over the world.

Some of these men,

some of these guys and gals,

I have,

pastored them through their

loss of their mom,

their dads,

um,

divorces,

um,

as close as,

as anything else.

And to look at that,

to think that that right there

was a moment the Holy Spirit

was using

to prepare,

to change my mindset,

our mindset.

This is what I've learned

now,

now being digital pastors,

you know,

um,

since March of what?

2020.

Yeah,

2020.

Like,

yeah,

just a year.

This,

this is what I,

this is what I've learned.

And,

you know,

Angela's helped us with this as well.

And we know this to be true.

There's hundreds of,

thousands of people

possibly watching you

that you don't know.

You have no idea.

There's no way

and the algorithms,

the way Facebook and Instagram

and YouTube do things,

you know,

um,

you're not going to know.

But when they connect with you,

they connect

and it's an instantaneous,

it's,

it's a fast connection

because they know you,

they've watched you.

They,

they,

they think they know you.

We've seen this all over the world

in,

in just the,

you know,

I don't have to use the word secular

and church interchange.

I don't have to use,

it's just where the,

we're people,

right?

And so

when they connect with you,

it's real,

it's fast

and it's now

and it's,

so we teach our team.

So our process on our,

on our,

on our,

on our,

on our Sunday mornings

or anything we're doing

during the week,

if somebody is liking

what we like

or it's doing

any,

any like or heart,

whatever,

any engagement

we require,

we,

we ask our team,

require our team.

It's mandatory

that we are engaging

back with them

because that's a person

that's saying,

hey,

do you see me?

I'm here,

you know,

we instantly engage

with them

and we reach out to them

and we pray for them.

We invite them

at the same time,

at the same time,

going back to

some things

that Craig helped us with.

I think for years,

us pastors

have spent too much time

trying to drag people

through a process

they don't want

to be dragged through.

A disciple

is a person

biblically

that wants

to follow.

there's something

going on

on the inside

of them.

They want

to be,

they want

to mimic.

So we have

to get back

to the understanding

of the Jewish

culture

and what,

and how

Jesus,

the moment,

how he is

leading in those

spaces.

He wasn't trying

to force people

to do something

they didn't want

to do.

They wanted

to do it.

And so I think

for probably

the last decade,

a couple decades,

we have these

great terms

of next steps

and your next

right step

and this and that

and trying to get

people,

if you have

somebody volunteering

at your church

and they're saying

hi to somebody

at the door,

we think they're

a disciple.

They could be,

but they're probably

not.

They're just

a good person

that wants to,

and it doesn't

mean they don't

love Jesus,

they're just

volunteering.

We're not

called to create

volunteers.

We're called

to create

disciples.

And the

disciple,

what a disciple

is,

has been already,

Jesus is the one

that says what

a disciple is.

A person that

denies themselves,

take up the cross

and follows Jesus,

follows him.

So I think

what we're

discovering is

digitally,

we put the

pressure on the

people to make,

to decide to

follow.

Well,

and we see,

you know,

we're seeing,

right?

Well,

and we're seeing

people that,

you know,

maybe we're watching

and actually

stories of people

that I was watching

you for months,

never engaged,

never liked,

never did anything,

then all of a sudden

they are,

but then they're

the ones that are

actually engaging

with other people

and inviting people

into the conversation.

And that's what

we have seen,

you know,

people inviting,

people bringing

people along with

them in the

digital space

way more than

we ever could

to bring people

inside of a church

building with walls.

It's easier

to invite someone

where they can

see from a distance,

maybe not feel

overly,

you know,

pushed back on

and then they can,

you know,

maybe tip their,

you know,

dip their toe in

and then jump in

and that's what

we're really seeing.

Yeah,

I think this,

I think the digital space

is not going away.

Yeah.

The virtual world

is here to stay.

Yeah.

You know,

and we need to realize

this as a church.

Going back in person,

now look,

don't get me wrong,

I love going,

I love worship.

I love being around

people.

I love that whole

atmosphere,

but honestly,

I think,

do we love the

atmosphere and be,

again,

atmosphere?

Do we really,

are we really engaging

with each other

or we just want a fix

of that feeling

of what it's like

to be around a bunch

of people engaged

in a certain thing?

I think that's more

of the thing

than anything else.

Again,

being raised in an

environment,

mega environment

where,

you know,

you have the best

of the best all the time

no matter what you do.

You know,

are we really

discipling people?

Are we really engaged

in their lives?

These are questions

we have to ask ourselves

as a church,

as a church globally.

If

we're declining

in America,

reaching people

and discipling people,

we have to stop

and ask ourselves,

why?

Why do we see

platform,

the biggest ministries

of the nation,

the biggest this,

the biggest that,

but we're declining.

So we have to,

either we're not declining

and that's just

a bunch of propaganda

or we are declining

and yet why do we

only hear from people

who have the churches

of thousands

and thousands

and thousands

and thousands?

Okay,

so why are we declining?

How do we change

that momentum?

I think what God

is showing us

in a number of ways,

number one,

the virtual,

again,

the virtual world

is not,

it's not going to,

it's not going to go away.

We're going to see

more digital churches

or we're going

to see more of it.

We're not going

to see less of that

and that's going

to go,

that's going

to confront

our vocational

ministry life,

I think.

Yeah,

yeah.

Let me,

let me ask this

because I'm curious.

You,

within the past

18 months,

your canvas church

has become

physical,

COVID,

digital,

and now

you inserted,

I don't know,

thousands of people

into this equation,

you know,

and I've heard

Angela Craig

talk about the stats,

51% outside

of the United States,

49 languages,

48 countries,

like it's just

as ridiculous

some of the exposure

that she's been able

to get

and the connections

and the relationships

and the church

that she's developed

entirely on Facebook.

Who's keeping up

with this?

like how are you

getting the canvas

people

bought into

a digital

process,

into a,

it sounds like

a new discipleship,

disciple-making

centric environment,

like are they

drinking from

the fire hose?

Are they keeping up?

Are they,

I'm out of here,

I want to go find

the physical building?

What's been some

of those environments

because you guys

have transitioned heavily.

Dude,

that's a great question.

Let me answer it

this way.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

No,

no,

yes,

it may be.

I think our,

our core team

completely bought it.

Yeah,

we did.

We made the decision

together.

It wasn't just

Jared and I

saying,

this is what

we're going to do.

We all went

on this journey

together.

So it's been

literally an open

conversation.

And so that's

been helpful

that we've actually,

and I feel like

the first time

in our life

as senior pastors,

we've,

we have a team

that we're doing

something together

versus we're making

the decision

decisions and,

you know.

Which goes into a,

it goes into a,

to a bigger conversation.

You know,

it's again,

the co-vocational role.

We've been co-vocational

for three years.

Not,

not just when we

started a campus church.

We,

we,

we saw,

when we transitioned

Timberlake Bothell campus,

we know,

we saw the money

coming in,

the money,

you know,

being spent

and said,

that's not going

to work.

you know,

what's good

about having

a multi-campus church,

you know,

when one campus

is struggling,

you know,

the rest kind of

help it along,

you know,

and when you're

seeing a 50% help

and you're taking over

and you realize

most of these people

are going to leave

because they're part

of a different church

and we're not

the same way,

we both decided

let's get back

our feet back

into ministry,

into the secular world,

secular again,

back into,

to the work world.

because there's no way,

it's not going

to be sustainable.

So that's a,

that's a whole

other conversation

of,

you know,

what it's going,

what it really looks like.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I would say

in the last six weeks,

once it's become solidified,

now,

you know,

I mean,

people now

that churches

are going back

into in-person

and they share

there's no wrong

with that.

People in our church

and I think

what we're seeing

is families

that have children

want,

who are church people,

church people,

not in a bad way,

I don't want to do that.

Church people

who have friends

and family,

you know,

they have kids,

they want to be in-person.

That's not bad.

That's great.

I understand that.

They want,

they want to build

community with other people.

What's the best way

to build in-person community

is be in-person,

you know.

Over the last six weeks,

we've lost $4,000

a month in giving.

Well,

and it's,

you know,

and there's a lot

of different factors.

I think,

you know,

there's,

we need to have,

multiple things.

In-person is obviously

huge.

I mean,

we're people,

people,

we need to be around people.

And I think with families,

especially with COVID

and kids,

you know,

doing school from home

and virtually,

they,

they're social things

and they're social implications

that are taking place now

on our kids,

which is causing,

you know,

more anxieties

and stresses

and those kind of things.

So I think,

you know,

families is harder

to stay online only.

And so we have had

some people

in Canvas Church,

you know,

the transition to,

yeah,

they want to go back

to in-person

and,

or this transition

is a little bit

too hard for them.

I mean,

I feel like

in any transition,

you,

you know,

people join with you

and then people move

on to something else.

So,

yes,

we've had that.

And there has been transition

even in PCL

and Hope City Church

becoming Hope City Church.

I mean,

there's connections with,

you know,

Angela

and Angela is

probably one of the best

discipleship pastors

that I've actually

come in contact with.

She knows so much

about the individual

and,

you know,

cares about,

you know,

individual people

that that,

you know,

there's people

that are connected with her

and she's had a lot

of great leaders

on her team,

you know,

and so we've seen,

you know,

a little bit of transition

in that,

but we've also seen

a lot of people

begin to,

you know,

that we would have

never thought

that would even be leading

begin to like rise up

and start leading

in that way.

So it's been exciting,

you know,

in a journey,

in a process.

And so when I said

yes to all of your questions,

yes,

we're experiencing

all of those things.

Yeah,

I think the realization

that,

if you're going to lead

digitally,

you're going to have

a lot of leaders.

Yeah.

You have a lot of leaders

that bought in

to understanding

that 3.8 billion people

are going to go on

to social media

this month.

3.8 billion people

virtually are engaging.

1.6 to 1.8 billion

are engaging

just on Facebook

and they're not

all the 70-year-old

70-year-old grandmas.

We love our 70-year-old grandmas.

Yeah.

The fact is

that's not true.

They're millennials,

lots of millennials,

lots of 30s and 40s

that are engaged

on Facebook

on a monthly basis.

It's also realizing

that we don't want

to reach church people.

I don't want

to reach church people.

Church people

can go to church

somewhere else.

It's great.

We want to reach people

at Hope City Church

that don't know Jesus

or D. Church

or who have left

the church

for various reasons.

Primarily,

I think we can reach

people who can't

be reached.

There's some nations

that we're reaching

right now

that we're connected

with pastors

or just everyday people

that somehow find

us in countries

that they can't

have a church

but they have a phone.

And on that phone,

you can have the gospel

being preached to you.

So I think as pastors

and leaders,

we have to realize

that God holds

the whole song,

the whole world

in his hands.

The whole world

is in your hands now.

But I think in the end,

what we're worried about

is our vocation.

Now, I'm not saying

everybody has to be

bi-vocational

or co-vocational.

What I'm saying is

if you're fighting

against online ministry

because you're worried

about people

not coming to your church,

you need to really,

really rethink

what we're trying

to do here.

What we're trying

to do is reach

the billions of people

who are eternally lost.

If you die

and you don't know Jesus,

you go to hell

for eternity.

I hope as a church

we still believe that.

Yeah.

If we don't,

we better rethink

what we're doing.

You know,

it's funny.

We work with digital

through Stadia.

We work with digital

only planters a lot.

And probably last year,

and I told you guys

off air,

we probably talked to,

I don't know,

50, 75 digital,

people who are interested

in digital only and planners.

By far,

the majority of them

were co-vocational.

They were not one,

which is,

I think this is a new area

for Stadia.

At least it was a new exposure

to me.

The majority,

you know,

hey,

I want to make a living

off the church.

I want to give 100% of it.

There was a IT director

of a Fortune 500 company

who I talked with.

He lived in Canada.

And his direct quote to me is,

Jeff,

I'm making a ton of money

over here

with this Fortune 500 company

as their IT director.

I'm not,

I want to do ministry

on the side of that.

I'm not,

I'm not looking to

have a bunch of ties

become my paycheck,

but I don't want to stop that

from doing ministry

in a digital only expression

of church.

And so,

it's interesting to me

because I think

when you're talking

co-vocational,

it's a different mindset

than the majority.

Honestly,

the majority of our listeners

are probably used to

because it's not,

they're,

these are people

that are on staff

or are volunteers

that want to be on staff

and are volunteering

and serving to the place

hoping that they would

be hired.

And I was,

you know,

a couple decades ago,

I was one of those kids

who's like,

yeah,

let me learn and grow.

So like,

that's what I want to,

I would love to get

your perspective on

because you're,

you're intentionally,

very intentionally pivoting

away from that.

You could,

I mean,

look,

you just merged

with a 16,000 person

giga church.

I don't know

what your numbers are

and butts and seats

and nickels and noses

don't necessarily mean much,

but you could very easily be,

hey,

I'm going to play golf 17 time.

You could be that guy.

You're not that far away.

You're intentionally not.

We,

we,

we don't have to work.

We don't have to work

outside the church.

Yeah.

We choose to.

So talk to me

a little bit about that.

Pull that thread.

Explore with me here.

For me,

I've been co-vocational,

honestly,

the majority of our ministry life.

And it was by choice

in a lot of those times

because I actually liked

being around non-Christian people.

I wanted to be around everybody,

you know,

and be outside

and see things

from a different perspective.

And when we got,

when we got saved,

when Jesus changed our life,

I was willing to do anything

to fund whatever

God called me to do.

And so if that meant work

and that's really kind of

how I felt like

our,

our whole life has been

when we get paid

to just do ministry,

I mean,

I'm like a kid

in a candy store going,

ice cream,

man.

Really?

I'm going to get paid

to do what I love.

You know?

And so for us,

you know,

I think it's become

a whole different ball game,

but we grew up

in the inner city.

I mean,

and so we were around people

that,

and even pastors,

we know today,

a lot of like,

that in the urban core

of America

really are co-vocational pastors.

And so it wasn't like

for us,

it was when we got

into ministry,

it wasn't like a huge,

oh,

you don't,

you work outside

of the church too?

Oh,

me too.

This is great.

You know,

when we got into

more of suburban America

is where we begin to see,

oh,

people get paid

full time

to do this.

And that was more

of a mind shift

for us.

And then we got immersed

in that lifestyle.

And I think really,

you know,