EP133: Steve Pike & New Streams of Funding for Your Church

Okay, so I've been doing a little traveling here.

Coming out of the COVID season, I've been double shot.

Thank you very much, Moderna.

Gone through the waiting period.

And so as a result, I've been traveling.

A couple weeks ago, I was at Austin

for a Exponential Ventures event

looking at 20 innovative churches and organizations

that are out doing incredible things in digital church

and disciple making and team building.

Beautiful, beautiful stuff.

Bible Vocational.

Love churches, love organizations that are thinking different

and that are innovating even in the midst of this COVID season.

But let me go back another trip earlier.

Flew out to Colorado where I had the chance to sit down

with stadiums, spend some time with the Planner Development team.

Craig Whitney is VP of Planner Development,

been on this podcast many times

and just really enjoyed actually getting to see

some of these people face-to-face

because honestly, I don't think I had met

maybe half the people that were there

with the Planner Development team

because it's been COVID season

and I onboarded with Stadia so quickly

right before COVID hit.

One of the things Craig Whitney did

was he gave me this book,

Next Wave, Discovering the 21st Century Church

by Steve Pike.

And it was an incredible, phenomenal book.

Honestly, like when I'm flipping through this book

and reading it, a lot of the thoughts

that I've had over the past couple of years,

I'm actually seeing what's in my head

on the pages of this book.

So much so, I was like,

hey, Craig, I got to talk to this Steve guy.

I want to sit down.

I want to dialogue with him.

I want to learn more.

And so I had a chance to hear

with this podcast episode.

We're going to talk about the book throughout here.

There's links in the show notes

to grab the book.

I would encourage you,

church planners,

maybe churches existing,

established churches that are maybe looking,

trying to think different in this new season.

Check this out.

Listen to what's going on here within the podcast

and click on that link and go buy that book.

Ultimately, the focus of this, today's podcast,

literally, and I think I said it in the interview,

we could go each chapter,

I think there's 12, 13 chapters,

we could spend a podcast or two

just talking about each chapter.

Like there's a lot of depth

and a lot of innovation

and a lot of new ways of thinking,

looking at his book.

But what I really wanted to focus on

with this interview

comes down to how we are funding,

how we are paying for the ministry of the church.

I personally have noticed

there's been a surge of bivocational,

co-vocational type people

that are interested in planting

at least digital churches.

And I'm seeing in other spaces.

And so what does it mean to be bivo, covo?

Is that an effective way?

Are there other ways to pay for ministry,

to support the ministry that's happening?

Does it all have to be in tithes and offerings?

When the economy's crashing

and up to like sometimes 30, 40% of tithes,

some churches I know are literally down 30, 40%.

The economy's hard in some areas,

not to mention areas like urban centers

where the economy is always hard.

And this is really the background

of what Steve Pike is bringing to the conversation.

He's founder of the Urban Island Project,

which often does ministry,

always does ministry within those urban centers

and talks in the podcast

about how a vegan church

to work in the urban centers,

the church can work anywhere.

And so what does it mean?

What does it look like to do funding

in these urban centers

where the tithes and offerings

are not going to be flowing?

How do we survive?

How do we thrive in those areas?

And how can we help the community along the way?

So we're bringing in Steve Pike,

author, Next Wave,

Discovering the 21st Century,

and also founder of the Urban Islands Project,

and myself, Jeff,

with the Church Digital,

and Stadia Church Planning

in a conversation that I'm calling

New Funding Streams for Your Church.

Okay, everybody, here you go.

I love this book,

talking about the next way

of discovering the 21st century church.

I was given this by Craig Whitney,

VP of Planner Development at Stadia.

And man, I just,

I opened up the,

he literally,

actually, Steve,

this is the copy

that you gave Craig Whitney.

Like, he just was like,

hey, Jeff, take this.

It was such a good conversation.

I was so pulled into it.

I think Craig actually felt bad,

but he was like,

yeah, dude, I want the book.

You're going to give it to me,

like, right now.

Because the table of contents,

honestly, Steve,

like, it's,

you're in my head here.

Like, this is the stuff

that I've been thinking

for months,

for years.

You know, look at just

rediscovering the church,

reimagining disciple making,

discipleship from a program

to a lifestyle,

reinventing funding,

rethinking team building

from titled positions

to disciples on mission,

redeeming architecture,

reclaiming the ecosystem

from isolating

to complementing,

refreshing metrics.

It's like,

oh, this is so good.

This is so needy,

needy.

This is so necessary.

It's probably a better word.

In this time,

like, this is beautiful stuff.

I just,

I want to ask,

like, even just to kick it off,

where did this come from?

What was the experiences

in your life

that maybe brought you

to this point

of writing this book?

Yeah, great question.

Well,

seven years ago,

I was leading church planting

for a large denomination

in the U.S.

And so I had this vantage point

that I could see

kind of what was going on

from the 40,000 foot level

and started to become distressed

about the fact

that the church

was not going

to the hard places,

especially cities.

And it went from being distressed

to being a sense of calling.

And I blew up

my perfectly good job

at the national office

with a, you know,

pay and benefits

and said,

I'm going to go do,

I don't even know

what I'm going to do,

but I have to go figure this out.

So I plunged into a city

and started gathering church,

people that felt called

to the city together

and said,

you know what?

I don't know how to do this,

but you probably don't either,

but you're called.

Let's figure it out together.

And that was the birth

of Urban Islands Project.

50 projects later

in 17 plus cities,

I started realizing

there are things

we're discovering

because being the church

in the city

has forced us

to not do some things

that are kind of common

to what I call

conventional church planning

or 20th century church planning.

And I realized

one of the problems

is we're in the 21st century.

It's being invented

in the cities.

So if you can learn

how to be the church

in the city,

you can kind of learn

how to be the church everywhere

because culture is formed here

and exported from here.

So that was the seedbed for the,

and so I sort of coalesced

all of that,

everything we've learned

from all the people

we've worked with.

So this is not just me.

It's all these people

that we've been

on a journey together.

And we're still,

I mean,

this is the,

we're in the startup phase,

but we just said,

you know what,

there's,

what we found

was everybody had

to kind of have a shift

from sort of a 20th century

way of processing things

and doing things

to something

that's more appropriate

for the 21st century.

And that's where

all this came from.

So it's 12 shifts.

There's probably more,

but these are the ones

I figured out so far.

Yeah,

I love those shifts.

And honestly,

like the majority of them,

I could do like

a podcast episode

just on that.

Like you and I

could become best buds here

on the podcast

doing nothing but talking

about chapter by chapter

through the book.

Like it's really rich.

We'll put the link

in the show notes,

check it out.

Would love for you

to process some of this,

audience process

some of this as well.

But what I really wanted

to kind of hone in on

and the thing that I think

really fits for us today

is in context here

with the,

what was the exact phrasing

was the,

oh,

I closed the book,

but it's the funding,

rethinking funding

with that.

And so we do,

with here

with the Church Digital,

we talk a lot

about online ministry,

digital ministry,

but specifically

with digital-only

church planting.

It's an interesting stat.

I've probably talked

with 100 people

over the past year

towards planting

a digital-only expression

of church.

And easily,

75% of them,

75 out of 100,

are wanting to do it

bivocational,

co-vocational.

It's their,

just to quote,

actually,

I was speaking to

an IT director

of a Fortune 500 company

who lives up in Canada.

And his exact words were,

Jeff,

why would I want

to quit my job

and run a church?

I just want to run a church

while I'm doing my job.

Can you help me do that?

And so it just,

there's this wave

of people

that I've seen

even walk away

from full-time ministry

to do more

of a co-vocational

and maybe

a bivocational approach.

And I know you talk

about the co-vo

and the bivo

in the book,

but you even took

a different approach

looking at it

more towards

like funding

the institution.

In my mind,

I was wrestling

with funding

the individual,

but you took it

a step further

and said,

you know,

hey,

there's different streams

that your organizations

need to work through

towards,

to get towards funding.

You want to talk

some about that?

Absolutely.

Yeah,

I kind of agree.

I mean,

the 12 shifts

are kind of like 12 kids.

It's really not fair

to say this is

my favorite kid,

but I think this one

is the most transformational

and most practically

transformational.

It's such a huge inhibitor

because I hear people

talking about church planting

and expanding the church

and the first question

out of their mouth

is, you know,

is it normal?

You know,

how much do we need

to raise to start a church?

Is it half a million?

Is it this or that?

And, you know,

so there's already

this orientation

toward a church

being something

that requires

a lot of upfront.

It's almost like

similar starting a business.

You've got to come up

with a bunch of startup capital.

There's a bunch

of initial startup costs.

It's very complicated

and honestly,

it's very inhibiting

to the rapid expansion

of the church

because if everything

you start

is big

and complicated

and expensive,

you're just not

going to start as many.

They might be great.

I'm not saying

that's necessarily

a bad thing to do

but it really stops you

from going

to a lot of places

and my thing

I felt like

I was called

to crack the code of

was how to get

into urban centers

but it's the same problem

for somebody

who's thinking

about a digital church

if they're thinking

about it

through a traditional lens

and the traditional lens,

in fact,

the subtitle

of the chapter

is from self-sustaining

to sustainable

and so self-sustaining,

excuse me,

self-sustaining

is kind of a,

it's a very common

missiological description

of what people consider

to be a viable church

and it's even called,

it's been called

the three self church,

self-governing,

self-propagating,

self-sustaining

and so people have,

you know,

grown up with,

I grew up with the idea

that the only churches

that really were valid

were the ones

that were self-sustaining

and everything else

was just missions

or whatever

and if they had

any outside support,

it wasn't,

they weren't quite real churches

and so to be a real church,

you gotta be self-sustaining.

Well, that gets to be

a real problem

when you're in a situation

where that particular revenue stream,

as I call it,

of ties,

that's the idea

is the revenues,

the way that a church

is appropriately supported

is through the ties

of the people

that are benefiting

from that church

and so that creates

a big problem

when you're going

into a place

where you don't have

a lot of people

that have a background

in, you know,

a traditional church setting

like the internet maybe,

people that you're reaching

through digital churches,

you know,

they may,

their background may not,

they may have no background

in a traditional church

or little background

or very negative background.

Last thing you want to do

is give their money

to a church

and so the distance

between your first point

of contact with them

and them actually

becoming part

of funding

your ability

to serve them

through the church

is a pretty long trip

and a lot of churches,

I would say

an increasing number

of churches

are not making,

they're not making

the transition

from the startup idea

to self-sustaining

because they can't get

the critical mass

of tithe givers

assembled

to pay for what

they're doing

and so that was,

that was,

you know,

I realized,

okay,

we either can't go

to difficult places

or we have to figure out

that maybe God

has other ways

of funding the church

that aren't just

tithes and offerings.

Is the tithe and offering

idea really sacrosanct?

Is that really something

that we have to do?

If you do a little study

of church history,

I mean,

even just reading

the book of Acts,

those guys were,

you know,

Paul was making tents,

Quilla and Priscilla,

that a lot of the people

in the early New Testament church

were doing things

that supported themselves

and allowed the community

of believers to function

that had nothing to do

with tithes and offerings.

Tithes and offerings

are part of it.

So out of this,

you know,

I started studying

all the different ways

that churches

were being funded

and came up with

five categories

of funding

that we actually

recommend somebody

doing anything

that is going to

be called a church,

whether it's an online church

or an urban church

or a rural church.

You've got to figure out

how is this church

going to be sustainable,

including the person.

I think you start

with the person.

That's like,

put your face mask on

before you put it on

your kid

or else you're going

to pass out

and your kid's

not going to have

a face mask on.

So the idea is

you do need to take care

of the catalyst.

You've got to make sure

the catalyst can be

in the community,

can be available

to the community.

But then,

you know,

depending on the expression

of the church,

there may be

some other costs.

And I would say to you,

even with a digital church

where maybe the actual

operational costs

are relatively low,

the church

that develops

a lot of revenue streams

can actually

be involved

in mission

to a greater degree

where they can start

to,

you know,

be generous

towards other missions

opportunities

or do tangible things

within the real world

that,

again,

they're harvesting

revenue

that is God provided

and then putting

that out there

to help move forward

the work of the kingdom.

So I think

we've been leaving

money on the table

by saying that

the only way

to support anything

is through ties and offerings.

Yeah,

and even getting

to this place of

you can't go

to the hard places

because economically

the hard places

may not even

be able to fund that.

So I know

ties and offerings

is the primary one.

Maybe that's a 2020 idea,

you know,

even like maybe

self-sustaining

that just,

it needs to

look different.

I'm just curious

before you even get

to the five,

as you're like,

what are some examples

in urban centers?

You're doing this mostly

and you talked about how,

you know,

if you can do it

in the hard place,

if you can do it in urban,

that you can do it anywhere.

So like,

what are some examples

or stories

of how churches

are coming out of

or churches are succeeding

in some of these

urban centers?

Absolutely.

Before I answer

that question,

I want to just give you

just another thing

that underscores

why this is such

an important conversation.

I was reading

an article

about three years

ago now,

it was in the Atlantic,

which is mostly online,

I think they still

print some,

but anyway,

it's a very

interesting publication

and they actually

did an article

about why the church

wasn't going to

underserved communities

and they interviewed

this guy

who was a

co-vocational planter

and anyway,

here's this

secular magazine,

basically their conclusion

after they got

some sociologists

to study this

and stuff

and they said

that what they realized

was keeping the church

from going to

underserved places

was that the funding

model

de-incentivized

people

from going to

the hard places

because the funding

model was based

on an ROI model,

it's a business model

and when you

actually do an ROI

analysis on a

low-income place,

it's just

the math doesn't work

and especially

in urban areas

you have

lower income

and higher costs

and so

there's actually

ironically

and of course

we always,

people say,

well,

we're starting this

church to reach

lost people

and yet

their funding

mechanism

actually de-incentivizes

them from

hanging out

with lost people.

They're incentivized

to hang out

with people

who have money

and know

how to give

and so

if they have

the choice

between the

Christian businessman

who knows

how to tithe

and the atheist

who is a long,

long way

from giving,

they're going

to hang out

with the

Christian businessman

which actually

diverts them

from kind of

the whole point,

you know?

So that's a real

problem.

So let me give you

a couple of

examples

that will

kind of give

a hint

about some

of the

streams.

I got a call

from a guy

one day

had heard

about us

and he was

wrestling

with this

question

of how

he funded

his church

and his name

is Jose Perez

and he says

my name

is Jose Perez

God had called me

to plant a church

in downtown Minneapolis

but I cannot figure

out the ROI.

Now most church

planters don't use

that language.

people that have

people that have

business background

they do.

Business background.

Yeah.

So I said

Jose tell me

your story

because I bet

the answer

is in your story.

He said

I grew up

in the nation

of Venezuela

I became

a professional

dancer

I started

a dance studio

ended up

owning a chain

of dance studios

across the nation

of Venezuela

I said

Jose do people

in Minneapolis

need to know

how to dance

he said

see

I said

do you know

how to start

a dance studio

he said

see

and then he went

oh

and what

yeah

because you know

six months later

he started

one reason

dance studio

six months after

that

one reason

church

and

what he

realized

and I realized

was that

his ability

to think about

how the church

could be sustainable

had been

hampered

by his

missiology

or his

ecclesiology

the idea

that all of

the funding

had to come

from tithes

and offerings

and he couldn't

get past

and couldn't

make the math

work in his head

which he was

a smart guy

he actually

tried to make

the math work

and

so

instead

he figured out

wait a minute

I've got this

other skill set

I've got this

other opportunity

I can generate

another revenue stream

that makes the church

sustainable

and oh yeah

by the way

it was a great way

to connect with people

in the neighborhood

now the problem is

I don't know about you

but I'm not going to be able

to start a dance church

I'm going to be

I'm going to be

I'm going to be in jail

for false advertising

if I try to start a dance church

so it's

obviously that's

one example

of a model

and the mistake

people would make

was okay

well I can't do that

but

there

I have another friend

who started a

coffee shop church

have another friend

who started

an after school program

that was funded

through

grants

that were not

able to be given

toward

toward the church

it was

by

by definition

or by

the foundations

that he was seeking

money from

were restricted

from giving to

religious organizations

and so

he couldn't start

a church

using their money

but he could start

an after school program

which

bada boom

bada bang

gave them

a place to meet

and actually

some money

for staff

and so

they were able

to start

a church

in partnership

with the

after school program

people funded

the after school program

he made sure

it was world class

and great

that satisfied

what they were

looking for

but then the church

used the building

and the staff

when they weren't

using it

so

those are just

some

small hints

of

how this works

that's beautiful

Jose

it's interesting

like there was

intentionality

in the Minneapolis

with the dance

like

was it

one reason

one reason

it kind of

matched up

where it was

both the dance

studio

and it was the church

so it was like

they were

two sides

of the same coin

that's beautiful

as my dog

jumps into the

podcast

oh there you go

I love it

yeah

no that's alright

what's your dog's name

my dog is Ray

and she very much

is lonely

so she's letting me

know that

yes it's very sweet

we're totally

gonna leave this

in

it's good

I've got two

watchdogs here

that are about

15 pounds

and

they're sleeping

right now

I think

so

anyway

yeah

no

you know

actually

the win

for the

one reason

example

is that

you know

the

dance studio

provided the

space

and

you know

what do

you do

with the

dance

well you

need a

big open

space

but

you can

fill that

up on

Sunday

with

chairs

if you

want to

have

a

traditional

gathered

church

and so

yeah

for him

it was

just

they're

not only

do they

meet in

the same

place

but

yeah

they

sort

of

yeah

the one

reason

there's

one reason

for this

dance studio

to teach

you how

to dance

there's

one

reason

for this

church

teach

you

how

to dance

with

Jesus

you know

hey

so

I mean

we teased

and we

talked a

little bit

about

these

different

stream

options

so

let's

go

and

talk

it

through

like

what

are

we

looking

at

here

with

these

streams

obviously

there's

the

ties

and

offerings

I

think

everybody

in

any

church

knows

what

that's

about

and

whether

it's

done

during

digital

or

writing

the

check

or

you

know

it's

funny

we've

done

podcasts

recently

talking

about

Bitcoin

and

how

there's

a lot

of

intentionality

in

churches

and

sometimes

it's

effective

in the

new

economy

sometimes

it's

not

so

maybe

explore

some

of

that

like

what

works

and

what

doesn't

work

in

that

absolutely

absolutely

so

yeah

so

yeah

we'll

just go

through

them

one

at a

time

and

I

will

say

yeah

definitely

tithing

is

one

of

the

funding

streams

I'm

not

saying

we

shouldn't

invite

people

to

tithe

in

fact

but

here's

the

cool

thing

once

you

detached

the

survival

of

your

church

from

the

tithe

then

the

tithe

actually

you're

able

to

appeal

to

people

for

the

biblical

reason

of

why

we

tithe

the

biblical

reason

why

we

tithe

is

to

protect

our

hearts

from

materialism

it's

you know

the scripture

warns us

that

you know

storing up

treasure

for yourself

on earth

is

not where

you want

to put

it

you want

to put

it in

heaven

and

and

so

the

reason

you know

the reason

tithing

has always

kind of

been part

of the

deal

with

somebody

following

God

I mean

all the way

back in

the old

testament

that's

kind of

where the

whole idea

came from

but it's

always been

about

protecting

it's always

been an

action

it's a

discipleship

action

it's a

stewardship

action

it's not

about

paying

bills

that's

what we've

made it

about

I've

literally

heard

pastors

say hey

folks

you know

you need

to be

faithful

in

tithes

and

offerings

so we

can pay

our

mortgage

pay our

bills

pay our

staff

whatever

and that's

a horrible

connection to

make

because that's

actually not

the purpose

we give our

tithe to

God

I mean

they used

to bring

their tithe

which was

like a

you know

some kind

of animal

and kill

it

and destroy

it

you know

I guess

the priest

got to

eat

some of

the meat

and stuff

but you

know

it wasn't

it was

really

a true

sacrifice

to God

so we

give the

tithe

as an

action

saying

I trust

you

I'm

giving

this

as a

statement

of

trust

so anyway

just want

to emphasize

this

approach

that we're

taking

actually

helps

people

give

more

for the

right

reasons

and it

will

actually

help

their

heart

so that's

so yeah

tithing

is one

stream

and that

needs to be

part of

second one

is what I

call

donor

based

giving

and that

means

people

from outside

the church

so depending

on what

you're doing

starting a

digital church

make the

case

you know

I mean

you and I

were both

at this

meeting

last week

in Austin

we heard

we heard

I don't

know how

many of

those guys

you already

knew

but I

was blown

away

with the

stories

and the

scope

and the

scale

and they've

got a story

to tell

you know

and just

you know

hey

your gift

of a thousand

bucks

will help

us reach

you know

200,000

people

with the

message

of the

gospel

or something

like that

wow

okay

that's a

great story

so

you know

maybe

at the end

of the day

somebody's got

an online

church

and they

got 10

people

out of

the

20,000

or whatever

they're

connecting

with

that's

actually

giving

some

tithe

well

that's

going

to be

hard

for

them

to

you know

to live

on

but

but

they

can

tell

the

story

to

somebody

else

and say

hey

you know

I can

do this

but

in order

for me

to do

it

well

I need

to give

it more

time

and attention

in order

for me

to do

that

I need

some

support

or

whatever

the case

they're

trying

to make

is

donor

based

allows

for

another

revenue

stream

to

come

in

but

it's

a

different

you know

tithing

is a

different

ask

than

donor

donative

you

you

kind

of

need

to

make

make

the

case

about

the

mission

and

so

what

I

want

to

emphasize

in

each

one

of

these

categories

is

I

think

there's

a

you

know

you

can

believe

in

tithes

and

offerings

but

do

a

job

of

teaching

people

about

tithing

or

you

can

do

a

really

good

job

you

know

you

can

have

donative

income

and

you

can

do

a

poor

job

of

developing

that

or

you

can

do

a

really

good

job

so

all

of

these

you

want

to

think

about

developing

your

competency

in

maximizing

the

revenue

that flows

through

these

different

categories

but

each

one

of

them

require

a

different

approach

so

the

second

category

is

donative

the

third

is

that

one

we've

been

talking

about

co-vocational

and

that

word

that

language

is

it's

sort

of

become

somebody

made

it

up

recently

probably

in the

last

three

or

four

years

started

saying

covo

instead

instead

bivo

but

I

think

there's

some

wisdom

in

changing

that

nomenclature

because

bivocational

sort of

that

actually

comes

from the

term

bivocation

you know

it's

cutting

something

in half

and

you know

the

idea

that

it's

a good

idea

especially

if you're

starting

a more

traditional

congregational

kind of

a church

the

idea

that

you

can

you

know

have

a

40

hour

week

job

with

an

hour

commute

on

each

end

and

then

have

time

margin

left over

in your

life

to

really

give

your

energy

to

starting

up

a

faith

community

is

just

it

I

haven't

seen

that

proved

to be

very

realistic

but

so

that's

why

so

the

idea

of

splitting

yourself

in

half

and

you

know

50

hours

a

week

to

one

50

hours

a

week

you

got

a

burned

out

person

pretty

fast

so

we

suggest

the

co

vocational

the idea

is

it's

compatible

it's

cooperative

it's

it's

it

gives

you

the

margin

you

need

so

there's

a

broad

range

in

there

I

do

have

I

mean

we're

working

with

a

couple

of

investment

bankers