EP193: Jason Poling & The Multiplying META Church

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast, powered by Stadia Church Planting.

Through this podcast, learn about how God is using technology and innovation

in digital and digital environments around the world.

Our goal? To help churches like yours learn to be the church digitally.

Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple-making

that will revolutionize your church.

And now, your host, here's Jeff Reed.

Well, I started this podcast, this conversation, thinking it was going to go one direction.

And in about 10 minutes, 15 minutes into this thing, it went a completely different route.

And I got to tell you, I'm so excited how it all came out.

Hey, it's Jeff here with the Church Digital Podcast.

And I'm really excited to bring to you this conversation centered around Cornerstone VR,

Cornerstone Yuba City, Jason Poling's church.

Now, Jason Poling's been here on the podcast a couple times talking about his small church,

maybe two, three hundred people in physical space that launched a virtual reality campus.

Yuba City up in Northern California is his church.

We've talked about Jason Poling.

Jay Poe, we recently referred to him in a Pastor Brock conversation.

Evidently, when you do ministry in the metaverse, they give you really cool nicknames.

Except, you know, Jay, because Jay's name is literally Jay.

Another conversation.

Hey, so with this conversation centered around today with the podcast,

here's the reason we started the conversation with the podcast.

Jason Poling was telling me about how the physical church in Yuba City, Northern Cal,

and the virtual reality church, which is scattered all across the country, the planet.

They were meeting together.

The virtual reality people were traveling IRL in real life to where the church was in Northern Cal.

And they were doing like this physical meetup involving physical and avatar, meta, church members together.

And they called it Forever Family.

And what an incredible principle.

I love this.

Let's have a podcast.

And so we've literally got like five people from the church in this podcast conversation.

But some of the stuff that came out of this, a baptism in virtual reality, getting people, literally sending people on mission into other platforms than where the church is,

activating them to be on mission in the metaverse, activating them to be on mission where they live physically,

even though it's on the other side of the country.

A church in California is getting someone living on mission in Atlanta, Georgia, through a pair of goggles that they bought through, I don't know, Amazon or whatever.

Like, this is incredible.

The power of a physical church, a small church, two, three hundred people, adapting and utilizing that power to get people on mission in another time zone.

Like crazy, crazy stuff.

And it's like, OK, how can we have both conversations?

And so I got to tell you up front, conversation goes long.

You're going to just get it because it's awesome.

Had some tech issues.

And we've adjusted to a new platform called Riverside.

Riverside, I love, except in this conversation.

We did have a number of tech issues centered around that.

Everybody fails every once in a while.

And I've already told Riverside they failed on this one.

And so we made it as best as we could.

If you're watching on YouTube, some of the video may be janky.

Hopefully audio they were able to clean up in such a way.

But this is a solid conversation about the power of a physical church that really wants to utilize and capitalize the metaverse space.

So here's what we're doing.

For this conversation, we are bringing in Pastor Jay Poe, Jason Poling, no stranger to the podcast, as well as, oh, I'm just going to utilize their names on Discord.

We're bringing in Goose, Nicole the Angel, Nicole White7, and a guy named Stuart.

All those creative names in Stuart.

But it's awesome.

This is a great podcast.

We're bringing in all these people centered around Cornerstone and some of the things that they are doing in physical space, as well as virtual reality.

In a conversation that I'm simply calling here, The Multiplying Meta Church.

Okay, everybody.

Here you go.

Hey, Jason, why don't we start off with you, man?

Tell us a little bit about who you are and what your story is with Cornerstone.

Yeah, so I came to Cornerstone about four years ago.

So we're out in Northern California.

It's a small little EFCA church, and God's been blessing it.

It's been growing.

It's been awesome.

So, yeah, just came out here, and then we started the, what, almost two years ago now, Nicole, I think.

We started probably about two years ago.

Yeah.

A year and a half.

A year and a half.

Well, it was April of 2020, so whatever that is.

Yeah, a year and a half.

Started the church in the metaverse.

So that was, yeah, that's how we got started.

And it's been amazing, awesome rollercoaster excitement since then.

God's been blessing us.

And these guys here and the call, this is some of the awesome blessings, you know, that God has bestowed upon us.

It's awesome.

And evidently, Nicole is your detail person because you don't even know April 2020.

And let's be honest, if you know Nicole, she is the detail person here.

So, Nicole, you know, tell us a little bit about your story and how you kind of fit in with this.

So, I've been attending Cornerstone for a little over four years.

And I came on staff in July of 2020, so smack dab in the middle of the pandemic.

And it's been a bit of a wild ride since, but I'm still here.

Love it.

Nobody's stolen her away from Jason quite yet.

No, I will turn Godfather on you if anybody tries to take her.

It is my favorite thing to threaten to leave and just watch his face go pale and kind of have the heart attack look.

Just once a week or so.

It brings me joy.

We're working a cup of coffee each week.

I'll leave unless you bring me coffee.

You get something out of the deal other than just like the sheer shock on his face.

Awesome.

And like Jason said, we've got a ton of guests on the line here.

It's supposed to be a lot of fun.

Michael, just because you're a friend that I've known here from South Florida, why don't you go next?

Yeah, so I'm Michael, used to Venice.

Most of the Metaverse knows me as Pastor Goose.

And I am the Metaverse pastor at Cornerstone.

I entered ministry in 2017 after running my own law firm for about 14 years.

Also made video games, a small video game studio.

And so when Pastor Jason and I started talking, I met him through a, actually through a conference that Stadia had put on, a lot of things had lined up between the pastoral ministry and again, making video games, the Metaverse.

And so, you know, eventually the Lord revealed that the Metaverse was the place that he wanted me.

And so I joined Cornerstone in May of this past year and have been loving, has just been loving every minute of it.

Since I joined.

That's cool.

I didn't realize we were the matchmaker between you two.

One of the innovation meetups or something.

I love that.

Did I get a finder's fee?

Did I get commission off of the, we totally didn't negotiate that correctly.

You're now, yeah, you're the e-harmony of the Metaverse.

Man, we got to get with my, Nicole, make a note.

I got to get with my contract people too.

We got to fix that.

Awesome.

All over that.

Angel, go next here a little bit.

Where do you fit into this whole Cornerstone Church thing?

Well, my name is Angel.

I'm in Atlanta, Georgia.

I'm a software engineer and a multidisciplinary designer.

So I'm just obsessed with art and code.

That's my thing.

I found Cornerstone Church stumbling around in alt space over a year ago and never left.

And now I'm a small group leader, which is insane, in VR, which is really cool in the Metaverse.

And I'm a part of this Forever family.

And yeah, they haven't kicked me out yet.

So Angel, literally in this equation, I mean, everybody else is physical.

And you got Michael, who lives in the other side of the country, who's the Metaverse pastor.

But you're literally one of these people that found the church in alt VR, in the Metaverse,

and are now attending and active and leading groups in the church.

So that's virtual reality.

That's fascinating.

Stuart, next up.

Actually, last up, I think, if the math is right here.

Stuart, tell us, where do you fit into this?

My name is Stuart Freeman.

I live in North Carolina.

I've been with Cornerstone for about a year now.

I was at my lowest and found Cornerstone.

And Jason discipled me through becoming a new believer.

And the Lord actually led me to build a church within the VRChat platform.

And so I'm the director of the VRChat campus.

Wow.

Okay, so the majority of the audience has no idea what VRChat is.

But I just want to acknowledge up front, wow.

Like, I mean, that's the wild, wild west of Metaverse.

And so you're going in into some dark areas, my friend, with the gospel when you're doing that.

So mad respect right off the top.

And there's probably five separate podcasts I want to have with each of you,

digging in some conversations down the road, because this is fascinating.

But what I really want to focus on here is this idea of why Meta.

And then there's some of the challenges.

We hear not physical Meta or not Metaphysical, but y'all brought the two together.

And just even looking at my little chart here on my screen, there's three, four different states that are involved.

You've got Yuba City's in California, Michael's in Florida, Angel, you were in Georgia,

and Carolina's on the Stuart side.

Like, so that's a broad spread, which is fascinating.

And so let's just start with this.

Jason, you've been on the podcast several times.

We've had John a little bit talking about this.

We'll put links in the show notes to go back to those older episodes if you want.

Why be the church in the Metaverse?

Why even get into this?

Now, there's success.

I'm literally seeing it on the screen.

And so there's a win in this equation.

But, you know, you started this thing April 2020, right after COVID.

I know you were wrestling with this stuff in 2019.

Like, what was the catalyst that really got you started here thinking about this?

Yeah, just Matthew 9, just wanting to get out in the harvest field.

That's where people are at.

A lot of people are not, you know, coming to brick and mortar IRL churches.

I'm an IRL pastor as well, and I love it, enjoy it.

Thankful for my flock.

But we do see people come to Christ.

We do see people come through our doors and get baptized.

It's been awesome.

But in terms of reaching, like, the 90% out there, and we've discovered in our local area for sure, and I'm guessing that applies a lot of places, 90% of the people are not really, you know, churched or walking with Christ.

And so we really just wanted to get out there where people were, and they are out in the metaverse.

They're out there gaming.

They're out there on social chat platforms.

They're out there in the virtual reality metaverse worlds.

They are out there in droves, and it's increasing, increasing more and more.

And, of course, now, you know, the meta Zuckerberg's announcement is just going to keep exploding.

And so that is where people are at.

That's where they congregate.

Those are the new tribes that we're trying to reach.

And as we've been doing that, we're realizing people really out there have very little awareness of who Jesus is, of what Christianity even is.

There are church people there, but there are a lot, especially in VR chat, there are a lot of people that don't know Christ.

So that's why we did it.

We just want to go and reach those that are without hope and far from God and need the gospel.

That was it.

I love that.

Zuckerberg's spending so much money on the metaverse right now and the stuff he's talking about with that announcement.

You know, the metaverse is going to be a community.

It already is a community, and Zuckerberg's investing arguably billions into making sure that meta reinforces that it will continue and it has the tools to be a community.

You know, the real challenge is like as a church, do we see it as a community worthy of a church?

Because the world is investing and organizations, corporations are investing in it.

It's just whether or not churches do.

And it's fascinating to me that the challenge that churches are really missing by not connecting with people in the metaverse.

And so within this podcast, you know, I see angels shaking your head up and down agreeing.

And so it's I really want to investigate a little bit here.

Angel Stewart, both of you connected with this church with Cornerstone via virtual reality.

Like, and you live literally on the opposite side of the country, three time zones away from where this church is, but you're calling it home.

Angel, I would love to maybe just start a little bit with you.

Like, were you looking for a church in virtual reality?

Were you a church in physical space before?

Like, if I can just pry here a little bit.

Tell me a little bit about yourself and how you got connected to the church.

Well, first, I think I should establish, I think others on the call will agree that the East Coast, our time zone is the correct one.

Everyone else is just, you know, in reference to ours.

So as long as we put that out there, I'm just kidding.

No, I mess with them all the time.

I think, you know, the pandemic really was challenging for me.

Up until that point, I was trying to really feel locked in and a part of the community of the in-person church that I won't say that I was trying to feel a part of up until that month, that March month in 2020.

And, you know, I was just struggling and having this real relationship where I'm being pushed by my brothers and sisters in Christ.

And so, again, I just kind of just stumbled in there.

I wasn't really looking for it.

But I will say this, the church I was going to, the sermons made me feel good, you know, warm and fuzzy driving home from church.

And not really better or, like, there was some growth or different, an improvement from what I was dealing with.

And when I came into, I just stumbled in, no legs, because in all space you have no legs, just pop in places.

And I heard Pastor Jason preaching, his sermons, it's not that they didn't make me feel good.

They ended up making me feel better because it led to me really looking at the word and looking at what Jesus said and applying it to my life and feeling that conviction that I needed to really grow.

So, long story short, I really feel like I want to be a part of a church that I feel better at and I'm growing.

And he knows he's good at pushing.

I have a good pressure to grow and become a small group leader amongst other ways I'm able to help.

And I'm just, I'm grateful to be used.

I love that.

What a great testimony of using virtual reality to challenge someone to be better.

And so, love that.

Stuart, what's your story, man?

And how, were you looking for a church in virtual reality?

What did it first look like when you connected with them?

Surprisingly, a few years ago, I actually saw a YouTube video of someone that was at the VR Church campus that DJ does.

And so, I jumped, at my lowest point, I jumped into VRChat and really spent a lot of time there.

A lot of people go to VRChat and they're just, they're depressed, they're lonely, they just need somebody to talk to.

And I was one of those people.

And so, I tried out the VRChat campus that I was talking about that I saw on YouTube, but it didn't really work for me.

People would come in and they would crash the whole server and they'd do it multiple times.

And they mentioned they had a sister church called Cornerstone and, you know, that people could go and try it out.

And so, I downloaded AltSpace and haven't looked back since.

That's awesome.

And how long ago was that, Stuart?

How long have you been in this space?

About a year.

I actually got baptized through Cornerstone November of last year.

Awesome.

Okay.

So, let's have that conversation.

In virtual reality.

I was about to say, virtual reality.

And so, now, any hate mail for the following conversation, please send it to djsoto at vrchurch.org.

Okay.

So, now that that's out of the way, Stuart, talk to me.

What is virtual reality baptism?

What does that even mean?

What does that look like?

It's powerful.

It's, it was ready for me to take that step.

I was ready for that.

Jason made it clear that that was sort of the next step I needed to take to get the ball rolling.

And it's just going under a pool, submersing yourself in the water symbolically, and just weep.

Was now, like, was that done in a church setting, in virtual reality?

Were people there that were witnessing?

Like, talk to me a little bit maybe about what that day, what that experience looked like.

What in virtual reality, I'm assuming, in all VR.

So, describe it a little bit for me, if you don't mind.

Yeah.

We actually had a sermon, and then we went sort of in the back, and there was a little pool that they had set up.

And everybody sort of gathered around, and they recorded it, and they read off my testimony.

And then, yeah.

Very cool.

It was awesome.

And so, like, you as a person, I'm looking at your physical representation.

I don't get, like, all meta here.

But, like, you consider yourself baptized when you went through the VR baptism.

I do.

I still have plans to be baptized in my IRL church, and we do push for that, to also be baptized in the IRL church.

But it was, yeah.

It was amazing.

Very cool.

Who did the baptism?

Who was the baptizer in this?

Jason did.

Jason.

Awesome.

How many?

I totally don't want to get stuck here.

I'm just totally curious.

How many baptisms have you guys done in virtual reality?

In VR, probably 10, 12, 15.

I don't know.

10 to 12.

Yeah.

Somewhere in there.

Yeah.

Nicole, the detail person, saves the day.

Thank you for that.

Jason, you know, he's not Southern Baptist, so the answer wasn't 67.

100.

Yeah, exactly.

Get as high as possible.

Awesome.

Hey, Michael, like, so you signed on.

You were a lawyer.

You know, I knew you down here in South Florida.

You were a COO or like an operations type of guy or, you know, a business guy with the church previous.

And now you're pastor of Meta.

What does it mean even to, like, pastor people?

I mean, even Meta is a controversial enough word.

And now you may be the only guy on the planet that's pastor of Meta.

I don't know that there's a lot of others out there.

Like, what does that look like, pastoring people like Stuart, like Angel in the Metaverse?

It's incredible.

Yeah, and, you know, I mean, maybe I'm the one with the title, but there's a lot of us and really a lot of that have already been there well before me have been doing it just because, as Jason said, just because the people are there, there are souls and we need to be there.

And so title or not, there's been, there's quite a few people actually doing the, having the pastor's heart for the people in the Metaverse, which is awesome.

Yeah, going from operations to pastoring the people, it's been incredible.

I mean, that's where my heart always, always was, and which is another reason why it was just such a natural fit for Cornerstone when I learned what the expectation was.

I was just like, yeah, let's go, send me.

Seeing and interacting and pastoring, Steward and Angel and so many other people, it's interesting.

And there's some of what, you know, I mean, I've got my MDiv, I got all the, I got all the, I know what all the books say about all this kind of stuff.

But then, as we know, the books only get you so far.

And then there's also no books for some of this.

There's never been any books written on quite a bit of this.

And so, you know, how to, how to manage people who, it's very much flipped.

I mean, this is the way that I would explain it.

It's very much flipped in terms of what people are willing to discuss with you.

So if you're at an IRL church in the lobby and you're asking someone how they're, you know, how they're doing or what, if you just meet somebody, they're willing to tell you all of their basic information.

But very rarely are you going to get what's really going on in the surface.

In the metaverse, it is exactly flipped.

I have met countless number of men and women who refuse to tell me their real name, where they live, what country they live in.

But within minutes, they will tell me every piece of their deepest, darkest secrets.

I mean, there are many times I have people say, I have only told a few people in my life this, but, and then they just tell me all this stuff and looking for someone to talk to.

And so that aspect of it is absolutely amazing because it's access to people that is unprecedented in such a short amount of time.

The challenge, of course, is trying to maintain the relationships, trying to build the relationships so that you can go further and, like, actually engage in true discipleship.

So that's been, on the one hand, it's great to be able to make such rapid progress to a point, but there is this wall that we're, like, trying to punch through to get people to really kind of, like, engage on a deeper level, on a more consistent level.

That's powerful.

What is it like, and I'll just open this up for anybody, really, because, Michael, you're starting to pull the thread.

You know, people are far more transparent.

I haven't told anybody this, but because you're on the other side of the planet and you're not sitting next to me, I feel that I can share stuff with you because this is a safe environment, which is funny because virtual reality feels safe.

Digital feels safe, more safe than IRL.

What does relationships look like within the church?

Angel, you walk into some place, you bounce into some place, you hover into some place for the first time.

Like, how difficult was it for you to connect, Stuart?

How long did it take for you to feel comfortable enough because you were recommended from another church?

You didn't even know anybody in the space.

And so what were these?

Was the church welcoming?

Was it a solid experience?

Did you have to be patient, like a physical church, IRL, where you have to go several times before you can really connect?

And even beyond that, what do these relationships look like in the metaverse?

Is this real?

Is this lasting?

Give me a little bit here on the relationships of Cornerstone VR.

I think the way the platform's set up where, first and foremost, you get to set your appearance as you want.

So some people to this day are still green to me.

I don't know what they look like.

And I don't need to, you know, because I know that's my friend.

And I pray with them.

And I know God knows about, you know, you know, Bender, whatever his username is.

And he knows who that is.

I believe God has an Altspace account.

He has access to all that.

So he knows.

He knows all that.

But I think one of the coolest things about it is just how organic it is, us coming together like this.

Because an IRL, I just graduated college not too long ago, so I was trying to find an IRL church.

And there's this kind of, like, strong feeling to go to a church for people like you.

These people go to this church and have this denomination and do this and that.

And what I like about Altspace is that anybody, literally, you'll hear different accents reading the word of God.

That is so emotional for me, like, hearing people from all over the world, young and old, male or female, reading scripture together.

So I just love how organic it is.

It's no kind of forced diversity or anything.

It's just this natural, like, Jesus is the common denominator, what brings people together.

And when we come together like that, we'll find we're a lot more alike when we start sharing our experiences, especially, like, in my small group.

It's been a blessing and an honor to be a part of getting to hear people literally in Scotland, right, saying things and having experiences that, like, are like mine.

Not that I was the only person, you know, because 1 Peter 5 tells us, you know, that we're family believers all over the world dealing with the same kind of struggles.

But the interview is telling me otherwise.

So anyways, I feel like when I come into these spaces and I'm able to come to my pastors with what's going on and having Nicole just pray with me after a service, I just think that because it's so spiritual and it's about Jesus, you're able just to, like, really let go in a way that I haven't yet really found an IRL to match.

So that's just my personal experience.

Stuart, how about you?

What would have been some of your experiences with it?

You mentioned, you know, how long it could take to sort of get that relationship kind of thing.

When it comes to relationship with a church, it does take time to feel as though it's a church home.

Something we've really found out, and even my own personal experience, is when you're in that dark stage and you try and seek out a church in the metaverse for someone to talk to, you're just so ready.

And you're so desperate for that talking.

So we've actually found out that we do Q&A at the end of the sermons that we do, and we found that that really helps a lot because people desperately need someone to sort of show them where there's hope because they don't have it anymore.

Jason, as you're pastoring, you know, this group, and Michael as well here in a little bit, like, is pastoring somebody different in the metaverse?

Is it different?

Like, is pastoring people in the metaverse different?

Are you doing things in a different way?

Are you sensing or feeling it's harder to connect with someone?

Is it easier to connect with someone?

Like, give me an apples to oranges comparison here.

Yeah, you know, it's funny because last night I was doing, we do this biblical counseling training.

We've got about 20-some people that every Tuesday night we're training them on how to help people, soul care stuff.

And somebody asked that, like, doing counseling in, so I've done counseling in the metaverse as well as IRL.

And they're like, is it harder?

I mean, is it easier, better, whatever?

So they asked a similar question.

And I was like, had to think about it because I haven't really noticed that much of a difference.

And they said, if you're, so if I'm on Zoom or Discord or if I can see them, so that's helpful.

But they said, what about when you're counseling in VR?

You can't see them.

You can't see their facial expressions as much.

And I was like, really?

I don't know how the Spirit of God does it, but somehow there's this deep connection.

And yes, if they have their headset on, there's movement with their hands, and you can see some of that nonverbal expression.

But, you know, I would imagine, like, can a blind person in IRL give counsel to another person without seeing nonverbals?

Absolutely.

And so I think you might say, oh, there's a deficiency there in being able to really pastor or connect or counsel people that you can't see.

But there's really not.

There's something deeply, it's the Spirit of God.

There's something connects you.

And I find myself very bonded to people that I can't even see.

I just, you can hear the, and you can hear the voice.

I mean, that's critical, right?

The tone.

But you know what?

As I say that, I'm verbally processing.

Even on Discord, which is a real famous chat app that we use quite heavily for connecting people, a lot of it is text-driven.

And actually, there's a lot of times where there's a depth, a robust connection that's forged even through typing things out to each other about the depths of their heart.

So, yeah, I mean, it's just a matter of perspective, I guess.

Some people are like, oh, I can't do that.

I can't really connect with somebody through text.

I can't connect somebody if I can't see them.

Not my experience.

I feel like I've connected just as deeply with my brothers and sisters in the metaverse as I have in IRL.

So I don't know how to explain.

Maybe Michael's a lot smarter than I.

He's probably got a better philosophical version of why that is.

But somehow the Spirit of God works in that way.

Michael, what do you think?

Yeah, I think there are differences.

Some could be seen and in some moments maybe weaker than being IRL.

In other ways, there are strengths.

Just as I said, just flat out getting people to open up quicker is a strength.

And so I think what we're going to end up finding is that we will have a better idea as we go through this and do it and learn and see what works and see what doesn't work.

I think we're going to develop really good insight into when someone should be transitioned to IRL for whatever it may be.

And then I actually think that there's going to be times when we have IRL people that we may say, listen, this is going to go far smoother if we just pop headsets on.

Even though we could be IRL, there are reasons why.

I mean, I just once all of this plays out and we see what works and what doesn't, the strengths and the weaknesses, I think people are going to be surprised.

And for the for the critics who haven't been in it, once they see it, it just changes everything.

I've seen that more than a few times.

And, you know, the whole idea is pressing into some some like deeply held traditions.

But I think when those traditions get pressed into, I think we may find out they're actually idols and not actually worth holding on to.

Preach it.

You're right.

He is smarter than the rest of us.

He is.

He's a smart cat.

We're talking about a gray space here.

And it's funny, like even even myself, I try to I live in a world of labels.

You know, we say digital church because that's where physical and digital come together.

And so physical church, understanding digital ministry.

We talk about digital only church plants, you know, and that's Angela Craig Pursue Church Live at some level, even what DJ Soto is doing in the metaverse.

That's this digital only expression.

Michael, you're talking about bringing somebody from meta into IRL.

Stuart's talking about being baptized in meta, but also the importance of being baptized IRL as well.

And it's I'm confused because we're working so hard to categorize people separately.

But what Cornerstone's doing is really finding this like blended gray area where it lives together.

Is it is it and I'm legitimately asking this question.

Is it important to to keep meta meta and IRL IRL or why have you guys worked so hard as an organization to try to bring those two together?

I feel like it's important that it stays like we blend it.

People aren't labels and categories and people in real life have the same struggles as people in VR.

And when they can come together and counsel each other and counsel each other and be friends with each other, even though we're on opposite sides of the country.

It's powerful.

It gets you out of your little bubble, your little Christian culture where you are.

And it helps you like like Angel is talking about see people in Scotland and the UK and we've had people in China and even areas of Africa and stuff.

Come in and and share like their journey and how similar it is also how different it is.

But there's a lot of connections and you can see how the family of God is worldwide.

It's not just our local churches and it's not just our spot in the metaverse either.

It's everywhere and we can connect just as well physically in real life, digitally.

And when you put it together, I think it's even more powerful.

Talk to me a little bit here about you got everybody together.

What, why, you know, what, what was that like getting the, the, the physical, the, the, the virtual, what were some of those experiences like coming together physically?

I liked it.

I mean, to be honest, I had never been outside of the East Coast, really like the Southeast of our country.

So going all the way to the West Coast and California just seems a little crazy right now.

I'm just being honest with you.

I was like, I'm about to go over here right now.

So when I say it, and I still consider it this way to be like a second home, the way that Pastor Todd and his family, and they just got their new home, opened up to me.

I in no way felt like an outsider.

There's this twofold where it's like some people like see me really like as a brave person to go and make that trip by myself.

I never flown by myself.

That was like my second time on a plane in my life to go to the other side of the country and meet these people that I met in VR, right?

And then for them to be so open and welcoming to me, it really is one church.

It's multiple campuses and one church.

And I really love how, you know, I was able to talk about the sermons with some people.

We did seven weeks of small group leadership training, and they brought a GoPro to like a person who volunteers house each week.

And the people in that class were not in VR.

So I got to bond for like seven weeks with people who strictly like live in Yuba City and only go to the in-person church.

So when I came in person, it was like, hey, and I never met them in VR or anything just through the Discord class.

And I mean, I already knew people's mannerisms and, you know, people didn't realize how short I am, but people are not ready for that.

But it was just really like warm and accepting.

And my parents are a really big girl.

Like they're like, you about to go over here.

Let me see.

So my mom, it scares me that she even has a Twitch account.

She gets on the Twitch and she watches Pastor Jason.

And hopefully next year, I don't know how we're going to do it.

We're going to do it.

I would love to bring my mom as well.

So the whole family, you're going to get more people coming from Atlanta, I guarantee.

But they just made me feel really welcome.

And, you know, you know, it can only be God.

I had already been out to Yuba City before that.

And so I had come out in June to preach.

And I was unprepared for that, for the reception that I received.

The people of Cornerstone, when you say family, they mean it.

Like I showed up and it felt like I was seeing family that I hadn't seen in a long time, like just universally.

And so when we started planning this and people started saying, yeah, that we're coming, I was just so excited for them because I knew what they were going to be experiencing.

And it was just it was just going to be perfect.

It was just going to be exactly the thing that would that would like put the exclamation point on what we talk about, which is we are a family.

If you're in VR, if you're in Atlanta or North Carolina or Wales or wherever, you are part of the family.

And we care for you.

We love you.

Like we say that and we mean it.

And the people of Cornerstone Church say it and they mean it.

And so everybody's showing up.

I mean, it was it really was awesome.

And then also just getting to spend time with people that I spend so much time with online.

And I mean, you know, like Angel and one of our one of our people from Wales designed that shirt.

Like she put her time and creative effort along with our friend Rob into creating that amazing shirt, which which I kind of like started.

And then and then she was like, OK, you go away now.

We're going to come back with something.

And it was like, which is perfect.

Like those are the kind of people that we have.

Like Stuart is the same way with VR chat where I am like always like trying to get in there meddling.

And he's like, I got it.

Like or he doesn't know something.

I'm like, I can help.

He's like, I got it.

And he comes back to it.

So we have such driven, motivated people that are that care.

And so getting everybody together in person and having that synergy, it was it was awesome.

Like I just it was it was super important to have that in focus.

And and yeah, it was just it was great.

And the shared trials that you experience when you go to San Francisco and you're stranded on the side of the road and with no buses that were supposed to be there for two hours.

You know, together, you bond together in those kinds of very hard hardship moments, which culminate, which culminated in a drive back from San Francisco with me in the driver's seat, Stuart in the passenger seat with the two of us just dreaming all of what we're about to do in VR chat with with Jason sleeping in the back.

Hey, so let me let me pull that thread because because I was not prepared for this part of the conversation.

But what I'm understanding, Stuart, you had had a dream for wanting to do something in VR chat.

Michael, to your own admission, you don't necessarily understand VR chat as well as maybe some of the other platforms.

And so you're empowering Stuart to really get into VR chat.

Am I reading the situation right right now?

It's a little slippery.

The metaverse is a little slippery between church planning and missions because it's like 100 percent both.

It's not half and half.

It's just like 100 percent both.

And that's a whole other conversation.

But if you're thinking about missions and going to a place and bringing the gospel with the hopes of raising up natives to be the ones who really own it and then bring the gospel to others, Stuart is the native.

I mean, Stuart knows VR chat intimately.

And all of the all the time, Jason and I are in there and we're thinking one thing.

And Stuart's like, that's not going to work because he knows it.

And so and he and so then, yeah, basically, we've gotten to the point where we're like, look, what do we do?

And and he he's an amazing voice in helping us see what what the people of VR chat are seeing.

And so I feel absolutely blessed to be I mean, we consider ourselves literally on the tip of the spear with VR chat as far as ministry goes, because we've got and we've got a native who can explain to us what.

We should be doing and it's super exciting.

That is this is an incredible like moment, I would say, you know, and then once again, I wasn't expecting this.

And an audience, if you don't know VR chat, it's the it's the wild, wild west of the VR platforms.

And so it's it's open. It's it's crazy there.

There's not as much parental guidelines and protections and things like that within the platform.

And so if you're if you're going into that environment, you know, I mean, you're going to see stuff.

It's going to be weird. It's going to be crazy.

And and so I know like some of the churches in that space, they're not wanting to go in there because they're afraid of what's in there.

And so Stuart, you know, knowing that environment and being being comfortable with it, wanting to be the missionary, digital missionary, the meta missionary in the situation, even to the point of establishing what the church should be.

Like, first off, that's an awesome call. And so Stuart, once again, I wasn't expecting this conversation, but knowing what I do, like, I really salute you right now for for wanting to be the light of Jesus in that platform.

And at the same time, holy crap, Cornerstone, you guys are willing to let Stuart go into this environment and you're empowering him.

And what I love, Michael, with what you just said is we're not telling the dude what to do.

As a matter of fact, we're listening to him.

And when when we tell Stuart what we think is going to work, Stuart's like, no, that's the completely wrong approach.

And instead of telling Stuart, you're wrong, you're actually like listening to him and willing to let him give a shot into it.

Like so the number of rules that you just broke in physical church environments is probably 47.

Like churches don't do that in physical space, but it's it's it's just remarkable to me.

You know, up front, I want to call this out like your multiplication strategy is strong within virtual reality.

And we're seeing it I'm seeing in two different situations.

The second I'll explore in a second.

One, you've got Stuart, who's like, hey, I'm really passionate about this platform in this area.

And you as a church are perfectly fine.

You know, Stuart, I'm hoping they're speaking into your life spiritually.

I'm hoping they're discipling and girding you with the strength that you need to go into this platform and really be the light of the world within the equivalent of the wild, wild west of the virtual reality platforms.

So first off, if they're doing that, more power to them.

Stuart, what are you thinking?

Absolutely.

But the way that God sort of laid that out, the groundwork was there before the idea was even present.

It was definitely a God driven plan for this all to happen.

And he's just made the footwork.

So I'm beyond grateful that he's using me as a vessel for it.

I think it's been the highlight of my ministry.

Well, there's been so many highlights.

So, you know, but this has been so awesome.

I can't even describe to you in words.

Guy from the outside in a completely separate time zone.

Yeah, that this is a remarkable moment.

And I'm going to, Stuart, I'm going to be praying for you.

I want to see how things progress.

And I'm going to be cheering you on.

I don't do VR chat.

That being said, I love the fact that you are and heading into that.

The other thing that is remarkable to me, and I want to pull this thread a little bit.

Angel, you made the comment that you're going to bring a whole bunch of Atlanta people to the next whatever, forever family thing.

So, what that tells me is that your experience in the metaverse is infecting who you are in real life, because I'm assuming you live in Atlanta.

I would love to understand that a little bit, because, like, VR is meta, physical is physical.

They don't interact, but you're telling me that you want to get people excited about the stuff that you're learning and doing in meta and try to get them connected in meta or physical.

Do you have some stories that you'd be willing to share on that, what that could look like?

It's stuff that only God could have, you know, put together.

One thing I want to say is, you know, the reason I want to bring them in is not because it's in VR, and that's cool, and I help with the art and things like that.

I want to show them.

It's for the gospel.

And I think, like, that's why I'm there.

I mean, VR is cool.

Like, don't get me wrong.

Like, I love coding and art, but I'm there because the change that happened within me, and I have so many people around me that, you know, I'm very, I used to be very respectful of how people want to live their lives, whatever.

And I still have, like, that respect, but I also, like, I was just studying today about how, and this morning, how we are to, if you see a brother or sister in sin, you're supposed to restore them lovingly.

Like, we're supposed to restore them in a way, and over the past year, Cornerstone's very adamant about planting, even if it's just one person this year.

And I'm very much so, like, you know, you do your thing, I do my thing, but you're encouraged to spread it to people around you.

And so I share this journey with the people around me.

And I've been praying for two people in particular, who I'm going to send this to, so I'm talking about you.

And both of them individually came to me wanting to basically be discipled or have somebody to walk with them and be a sister of Christ to them.

And I just didn't expect it.

So it's come with a little bit of anxiety.

I'm working through with Pastor Jason, just talking about yesterday, where basically God is wanting to use me and call me to things, but I have anxiety of failing and not doing it right.

So I'm, like, dealing with that.

But what's beautiful is that this church, I'm taught that it's not me.

It's what God's doing.

So I'm just bringing them with me.

Come to church with me.

I have friends that have attended.

I'm good.

Thank you.

I'm good.

I have people that come to on Twitch, on YouTube, watched it.

I have people that I'm basically going to bring with me in my luggage if I have to to California next time.

It's just that community.

So I also got to meet, just a few weeks ago, someone from my small group.

They were coming for the Panthers game that we lost.

But we won the Braves.

They won the Little World Series thing.

So I hate on Georgia.

Because Pastor Jason's sermon on Sunday had a lot of Georgia hate.

And I tried it.

I had some Braves hate in my sermon.

But in my rant, I think it's really important that we understand we have something in common with people across the world.

So, yeah, I have a lot of stories that I'm not going to ramble on about.

But you'll see them here next time we do this next year.

I love that.

I want to ask this follow-up.

So the people you're talking to about digital, about MetaChurch, about Cornerstone.

So you're experiencing church in virtual reality and you're talking to your friends about it.

Do they think it's weird?

Yeah, at first.

I mean, I have a group of friends that did not think it was weird, which I thought it was weird that they didn't think it was weird.

But they know I've been doing this kind of, like, video game development and stuff like that in college.

Shout out to the Aurora Game Development Club at Georgia Southern.

But I think they always know it's artsy and stuff.

They're really interested.

But some people think it's weird.

Some people think it's, they might think it's a cult or something, you're going across the country, you've never met these people.

What do you mean you talk to them every week and you have a small group?

Is this a game that you're playing?

Like, someone asked me that last week.

Is that a game?

Like, no, it's real people.

So to answer your question, yes, some people.

And then I think Nicole hit a really important point about getting out that Christian bubble.

Metaverse or not, we should all be out that bubble.

We should all be looking at God biblically and not adding to it or subtracting from the word and being open-minded about how we can spread the gospel.

And Jeff, it is weird.

Like, I'm a hardcore gamer, game developer.

I'm in there.

And there are moments where you're like, this is bizarre.

Like, that happens.

But for me, what cemented it early on, and I use this example all the time, is in VRChat, one of the first weeks I'm there.

And I'm sitting there delivering the gospel to four Mandalorians and Paul Blart Mall Cop.

And I'm like, I have a picture of it.

I'm like, what is going on?

And, you know, and I'm just going and I'm just like acknowledging, like, this is weird.

But when I got done, one of the guys that was his avatar is the Mandalorian, he stopped me and he said, hey, will you pray for me?

I have a, my doctor said that I have a heart condition that is probably terminal.

And I was just wondering if you'd pray for me.

And at that point, like, it all just stripped away.

Like, you know, all of it just goes away.

And you're like, that's a soul.

And it's like no different than if I was on the phone with him right now.

And if I was on the phone with him, nobody would think it was weird.

And that's what it, and so it is on its face.

But it's not when you get down to the fact that it is just souls.

And so when you talked about what's the difference in pastoring, it's not.

If you, if you, if you care about the lost sheep and the flock, it's not, it's actually not different.

And one last thing, can you tell the story about how you do it in pop one?

What happened?

Can you please say that?

One of the biggest misconceptions I had going into VR was that it was all gamers, which it's not.

It's heavily social.

And it's, that doesn't mean there's not gamers.

We're there.

But I was just, I was taken aback by how heavily social it is where there's, where people don't, just don't play games.

They're just there for the social part.

However, there are awesome games.

Population one is one of them.

I love it.

I'm obsessed with it.

And so, so every Thursday night I will go in and open up a public lobby.

I'll entitle it VR Bible study and just wait for people to come in.

And there's a few of us that will go in and we'll just start playing and wait for people to come in.

And invariably, random people will just start coming in.

And 100% of the people that come in that don't know what it is think that it's a joke.

Nobody comes in thinking it's an actual Bible study.

But we go and we play and we don't say anything.

We just keep playing.

And then in between matches, I will, you know, at some point I will round everybody up and I will say, hey, we're in the lobby and I'll just say, hey, let's get together.

We're going to do our devotional now.

And like all the people that are like thinking it's fake, they're like, no way.

This is really a Bible study.

I'm like, yeah, it is.

So I'll start going into it and we'll get the trolls that will start shooting me and throwing grenades at me or whatever, you know, not grenades, but they'll be shooting at me.

They'll be building around me and stuff.

And, um, and it's fine.

And I just keep going.

And every single week when I start at, when I get to the scripture, when I say, okay, let me just read from the word.

And I start reading the word, the entire place quiets down every single time.

It's amazing.

And like every week I'm like, no way this guy's going to stop shooting me.

This guy's determined.

I start reading the scripture.

He stops and he sits down.

And, um, and it's just, you know, it's just, we, we talk about like, go where the fruit is.

And why, why do we keep going?

It's just because we keep seeing fruit that is being born.

And, you know, I do the pop one and I, at the end, you know, one of the kids came up to me, could, he's probably 10 years old.

And he's like, what was that all about?

You know, it's just a kid from, you know, from the United States.

And I'm like, well, that was from the Bible.

You know, the Bible is like, no, I don't know.

What, what is that about?

Like, you know, like the Bible, like Jesus and Adam and Eve.

And, you know, you heard that he's like, no, I don't know anything about it.

And I'm like, you know, we grew up in a time when you at least knew what the Bible had in it.

And kids now, like this kid did not know.

And I was like, have you seen a church?

There's a cross out in front of it.

Have you seen that?

He goes, yes, I have seen that.

So do you know what that cross means?

He's like, I have no idea.

So I had, you know, two minutes to deliver the entire story of the Bible and the gospel to this kid.

And at the end, he's like, well, that's a lot to process.

I'm like, yeah, it sure is.

But like, let me know if you want to talk more about it.

And that's it.

And so it's like the opportunity to plant seeds like that and reach kids, you know, men and women, it's just unprecedented.

So when you talk about reaching the ends of the earth with the gospel, man, this is a pretty good shot at it.

You know, I love hearing about the pop one.

And we'd be remiss if we didn't share a story about our sweet Alice.

We got it.

Nicole's got it.

I don't know, Jeff, you have time for that.

But there's a story that's just, man, so powerful.

And it goes along with what Goose is saying in terms of reaching people that are far from God.

And then how they got connected to the Forever family and are being discipled and equipped and doing ministry and reaching.

It's crazy.

So, Nicole, go ahead.

You got to share it because she's discipling our sister.

Oh, Alice.

Yes.

So about probably a year and a change, a year and a few months ago, somebody popped into our alt space service.

She was flaming red hair, flaming red outfit.

And her avatar name was the future queen of hell.

And so, understandably, we kept a pretty close eye on her that first service.

And she told me later that she had come in to troll.

She had come in to cause problems because she was bored one day.

She didn't have anything else to do.

So, I'm going to go cause problems at this church.

But she kept coming back.

And as she kept coming back, like, more and more people started befriending her.

We started talking to her, getting to know her a little bit.

And just through those, like, we never pushed anything on.

She was very clear in Discord that she was not a Christian.

She didn't believe any of this stuff.

But she kept coming back.

And so, we just befriended her.

We played games with her.

We talked to her.

And through that friendship, she started to trust us.

To the point where, I think it was January, December, January of this last year, she messaged me on Discord and said,

Hey, I'm having a really hard time with something.

Can I talk to you about it?

I'm like, of course.

Yes, please do.

And so, she talked to me about how she was having this trouble at work.

And as I was talking to her, that led to me just asking her,

Hey, do you want to get together once a week and just read the Bible?

Just, that's it.

Like, not like a Bible study, not trying to push anything on you.

Just so you can ask questions.

And she said, yes.

So, we started doing that.

And we did that for several months.

And part of that was actually, we decided to go into Rec Room, which is another one of the social apps.

And start building.

And we ended up that she, as a non-Christian future queen of hell, she built our church campus, our cornerstone campus in Rec Room.

So, we have a gorgeous church in that platform that we're starting to get into.

But eventually, June of this year, she became a Christian.

She changed her name.

She turned her life around.

And she told me later, as we were walking through some of the discipleship process, and as I got her testimony, that, yes, she was a Satanist.

She grew up in a pagan home.

There are no believers in her family at all.

And she did come in to cause problems.

But she said, because you guys were so welcoming, and nobody caused me problems, I decided something kept pulling me back to listen.

And she said, I went from a place where I lived in the darkness, because that was the only place I belonged, to now I live in the light.

And I have hope.

And she's got friends in Rec Room.

She hangs out mostly in Rec Room.

She has friends in Rec Room that, when I've met them, they're usually drunk most of the time.

They're there completely without hope, going through a lot of hard things.

And she has shared the love of God with them to the point where they're coming to church with her now.

So, I think that story alone, she was baptized in Rec Room just a couple weeks ago, in the church that she built.

So, I think that story is my absolute favorite.

And as I've discipled her, she is fully into it.

The questions she asks, the insight she has into scripture, it's not a surface thing.

It is completely changing everything about her.

And it's been absolutely incredible to watch.

And she lives in the UK, by the way.

She is in England.

So, future queen of hell is on another continent.

And a church in California, through a virtual reality, through a metaverse church, was able to bring a troll to Jesus.

I mean, trolls need Christ, too.

And so, man, I love that.

And she never would have set foot in a brick-and-mortar church in real life.

And, I mean, that's the theme why it's like when I talk to churches about the metaverse and doing ministry in that space, you know, after the shock value that I typically get from the average church leader, get down to this fact of the people that are coming to Christ in this space are ones that will never come into the building.

We're having conversations with people that don't even know what the Bible is, you know, Michael, to your point.

And now we're actually able to engage with them, dialogue with them, build relationships, and turn a pagan on another continent, get them connected to Jesus, and baptize them.

You know, that's – thank God for multiverse.

It's funny.

Like, I made a joke off air this past week or a couple weeks ago.

I did a video stream on the future church in the metaverse, and I have never been slammed publicly by so many people as I did trying to compare the church and putting the church in the metaverse.

Seed of Satan.

This is the birthplace of the Antichrist, the metaverse.

And I'm like, have a conversation with some of these people.

Talk to people that are actually doing ministry in this space.

And what you hear is a completely separate conversation because while the rest of the world is saying no, there are people out there that recognize the potential of the mission field and the opportunities to reach people, a different type of person, in a different way.

So I love the fact that you all are doing this.

And I have been so happy, you know, talking with Jason, watching from afar, cheering you guys on and the rest of, you know, the DJ Soto's, the Jade Earhart's, the Pastor Brock's, and the other guys that are out there and gals that are just on the edge here.

So I'm bleeding edge, doing ministry in places that the average church, at least in the Western Hemisphere, doesn't even consider.

They don't even consider that a community.

And the fact that you guys are doing church in that space, reaching people.

Holy cow, you got Stuart.

You're sending Stuart off to be a missionary into VR chat.

I mean, that's the unspoken story right here, man.

That's phenomenal.

Hey, Jason, hone in on this, because I'm hoping somebody's listening to this and realizing, hey, there's actual ministry in that space.

Maybe it's a church leader.

Maybe it's a high-level volunteer.

And they're maybe one to explore this.

How do they get started?

What do you recommend?

How does a church start to explore this idea of doing church, being the church in the metaverse?

Yeah, I mean, just first get exposed.

Just check it out.

I mean, come and see.

Come and see the services we do or the Pop One Bible Say.

Of course, some of that requires a headset.

Some of it doesn't.

You can actually do it for free on your desktop, 2D applications.

So they can actually come.

I mean, they can even start just with watching it live stream, right, on any of our channels, Twitch, YouTube, Facebook.

They can see what it looks like.

Now, that could be off-putting at first, because where the technology is currently, it still maybe looks like, you know,

the avatars are still, you know, cartoonish, if you will.

Now, give 5, 10 years, it's going to be pretty crazy in terms of its realism.

So that may be off-putting at first, but at least check it out.

If they can get into a headset, and they're like, what, $300 for an Oculus Quest 2?

Which is not that expensive, I mean, really.

And so if they could get a headset, they could then come in and actually see what we're talking about in terms of the connectivity that happens when you're in that 3D experience.

The spatial relational connectivity that you have with people and the nonverbals that are still happening, even in the avatar kind of setting.

And so if they could see that and see what happens and see the encouraging conversations and prayer and lifting each other up, I think it really will blow them away.

And maybe some of those that are so hostile to it because of the entrenched traditions that Michael was talking about, maybe some of that will pull down a notch so they can actually then take a next step.

Which the next step would be they just get in and start a ministry.

And we really did not know at all what we were doing.

I mean, what's the joke you say?

I didn't know how to spell, what did you say?

I didn't know how to spell VR.

Yeah.

Yeah, I didn't even know how to spell VR.

I was like, let's just do this, whatever it is.

It's true.

It's really true.

And that's why I needed Nicole and no one will take her from me because she was able to really figure all of it out and get us in there.

But you can do it.

If you have just one person, most likely it'll be a younger person that's probably already a gamer in your church.

I would guess a lot of churches probably have that one person.

And if you just say to your congregation, we want to go into this space, we're not sure what we're doing yet.

I bet you there'll be somebody to pop up.

Like a steward, like an angel, it'll say, I'd love to do that.

$300 headset.

Boom.

Then before you know it, you've got a little space you can meet.

Lakeland Church, Jeff, you helped and we helped with those guys.

Just getting into a platform that's actually free.

There's free platforms.

And then just be there.

Be faithful to show up.

And people will just start to connect.

And if you love people, they will stick around and they will hear.

And before you know it, who knows where the Lord will lead it.

So it's not complicated.

I mean, there are some nuances and details, of course.

But really to get started, it's not complicated.

But I would say get in and be exposed so they can see what it's like and not just have these caricatures of this that they've been told about.

Well said.

You know, in Lakeland Church, Stuart's a friend over there, Stuart McPherson, I think he told me recently, they spent $600 to start their VR church.

They bought two headsets and so they give, you know, to volunteers to utilize during the services and things.

And the world itself was free within all VR to build out.

Yeah, I mean, volunteers need to get involved and you need to staff it or at least structure it some way, accountability understaffed.

But there's the actual execution of this is dirt cheap in the virtual reality realm.

And I mean, the fruit of it, these stories are phenomenal.

The future queen of hell, getting baptized and things like that.

And that's what a phenomenal story that's just starting, you know, and as she's developed and is starting to, you said, even bringing some of her friends along and championing this idea.

You've got Stuart, who's, you know, owning this idea of being a meta missionary and running into VR chat, the wild, wild west with the light of the gospel.

Angel, who's taking this information and this understanding, and she is literally being the feet of the gospel in physical space, being encouraged by meta family.

Like, there's two phenomenal stories just within those two.

The idea of championing, the pastoring people in digital space.

Like, I mean, there were so many other questions.

Michael, we're going to have to get together and do a podcast later on this because I want to unpack so much more.

Forget Jason.

Like, he's, you know, he's done.

Let's, let's, let's.

I'm old hat, man.

I was born in 1975, Jeff.

Hey, this guy's like ancient.

He's like grandpa.

I'm surprised you still have your teeth in your mouth.

But, you know, some of the options, some of the opportunities to even learn from you, Michael, and this is great.

And, you know, honestly, and this, you know, maybe I should have said up front, but this, you're the only church I know that, well, I mean, maybe Lakeland, I think, is getting there.

But that's doing three expressions of church.

You're doing physical.

You're doing avatar, meta, and you're broadcasting services as well.

So you're doing like a fidgetal approach.

That's three modes.

Um, and by the way, last I asked, you were like 250 people at your physical environments.

Like, how big are you now?

Yeah, probably a 10, it's 250.

Yeah, maybe 300, something like that.

But yeah.

I mean, so this is not a mega giga multi.

This is not a very rich, wealthy church that's just burning money here.

And that approach to recognizing an opportunity to multiply inexpensively and have an impact with people that don't know who God is or are not going to the buildings.

My gosh, like, I mean, you're one of my favorite churches in the country just because you're looking at this from a different approach.

So, you know, thank you for doing everything you're doing in this space.

Jeff, we appreciate that.

You know, one thing I've been thinking about, I think churches are really going to have to process this together.

To be honest about the coming, the coming next 5, 10, 20, 50, you know, whatever years, we're probably going to have to start thinking about not mega, but meta.

Because I do think it's going to be harder and harder for mega churches and they're so expensive.

And the people that go to the mega churches, you know, they're probably, for the most part, not that unchurched don't sometimes matriculate into those places, but usually it's just from all the data that's out there and anecdotal stories as well.

It's usually people that are in some way already churched or maybe been de-churched and they, which is great.

We love to see de-church get re-churched in a mega church.

That's great.

Praise God if that's what happens.

But as far as like really making a dent in the unchurched, massively unchurched population, right?

Gen Z, Generation Alpha, it's unprecedented the levels of unchurchedness that exist there.

And so I think we're going to have to go towards meta, not so much mega.

And I think there's some expressions and maybe someday we can talk about this, but with the hybrid approach, you know, for example, Stuart, you know, he was in the VR church.

And then, you know, he and I talked about how to get connected there in North Carolina, and now he's in real life church.

So one of the things we are excited about is the possibility of when you connect all these people in the metaverse, then help them find also a physical church.

And then they infect or influence that physical church to say, hey, maybe we should start thinking about church differently.

And they get them involved.

And then before you know it, man, we're just, the whole church is working together collaboratively to do the Great Commission together.

On top of that, what Angel's talking about, I mean, she's got like 12, she's literally got 12 disciples.

I was looking at a picture of her small group, 12 people.

She's in the front with the picture and the avatars.

I'm like, oh my gosh, you're like, you're like following Jesus's path here.

But she's already gotten people connected in IRL, like you said, her family from Atlanta and friends that went to the Panthers game with her.

One of the thoughts is what if we have some microchurch expressions, some organic churches that grow up in IRL that are in some way centered on this concept of the metaverse.

So you get them excited, but you're still meeting IRL.

There's a local expression, but then they're getting out together as missionaries into the metaverse.

And so now you have all these churches that are just local, micro, cheap, not expensive megachurches.

And I think that's probably going to be the next phase of the church, at least in the West.

Because I don't think the megachurch, I just don't know if they can, over time, you know, they'll be the big ones that survive.

But I think we got to go meta, not mega.

Let's do this.

We're going to do another podcast on this.

And you listening audience, I agree with everything Jason just said.

And if you're still listening to this, I don't know when I'm going to play this podcast, so it may or may not be relevant.

But if you haven't heard a major announcement coming out of the Church Digital, pray.

Because everything Jason just said, we're going to try to make a reality come in a big way for a number of churches in America and around the world.

So the listenership tends to die off towards the end.

And so it may be my mother who just heard that podcast.

I don't know who else is actually listening.

Huh?

She can start it.

Listen, my mom's leading three small groups online.

Actually, two.

She's multiplying into a third.

And so she's...

My mom's 75 and is doing...

She got disciples all over the freaking country.

Well, hey, Jeff, you'll have two listeners because my mom will also listen to the end with your mom.

Mom power for the win.

Hey, seriously, mom power.

All about it.

That's awesome.

Hey, Angel, I'm just curious.

Within your virtual reality, within your meta small group, how many states, countries, like what's the distribution of that?

Is it hyperlocal to you or is it all scattered all over?

Definitely scattered all over.

The cool thing is I actually went to my hometown, Savannah, this past weekend.

I had my mom join me as a little special guest to the small group.

They loved her.

It was awesome.

So there's so many accents.

She was just like in awe.

Literally all over.

All those countries I said earlier.

And you would hear it when we read the scriptures together.

You would just...

You can tell someone is from or somewhere else.

Especially when it's like super late for them.

I mean, it's late for me too, but it's super late.

And then someone else is like, oh, it's not that late.

We are all in different time zones.

All in different continents, countries, different experiences.

It's definitely spread out.

It's very rare, I think, to find people actually near you.

And I do find someone that's like in Georgia.

Most likely they'll be in Atlanta.

I'm like, oh my gosh.

Because, you know, it's not...

It's kind of rare.

Love what you guys are doing.

Love what's coming out of the church you weren't expected to.

The small church on the West Coast that is attacking the multiverse.

Or the multiverse.

The metaverse.

Completely separate podcast on the multiverse.

Sorry.

That's the struggle of my life.

So, hey, we're going to land the plane.

I thank you so much for this time.

Everybody on here.

Jason, thank you for assembling the team.

Stuart, Michael, Nicole, Angel.

It's been an awesome conversation.

But sadly, we got to go and I'll reschedule something else.

But for everybody I just said, Jason, Stuart, Michael, Nicole, Angel.

This is Jeff at the Church Digital.

You know, we stayed at Church Planning.

Thanks for jumping on the podcast.

We'll see you next time here at the show.

Y'all have a good one.