EP194: Lee Coate, Complementary Content & an Experimenting Culture

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast, powered by Stadia Church Planting.

Through this podcast, learn about how God is using technology and innovation

in digital and digital environments around the world.

Our goal? To help churches like yours learn to be the church digitally.

Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple-making

that will revolutionize your church.

And now, your host, here's Jeff Reed.

So yeah, any time I can get Lee Coat to jump in a podcast conversation with me

or to sit down and just talk about things, it ends up being a good day.

Lee, well, he's kind of a straight shooter. He says what's on his mind.

Filter may not always be there. It's not always in check.

And honestly, it just makes for a really rich, really deep conversation.

Some of you, if you remember back to the Clubhouse days of the beta show

when we were hanging out on that platform called Clubhouse,

Lee and I had a conversation about the Peloton version of small groups

and why the entire small groups model was wrong and blah, blah, blah.

We talk about it here in the conversation.

But in the midst of some of that really birthed this idea of,

hey, maybe we need to do something different

or something complementary to what we are already doing.

To just keep doing the same thing over and over again

and it's not working, well, that's insanity, right?

And so the thing that I love about Lee is not only does he talk the talk,

but he puts the walk in there as well.

And so Lee, through the Crossing Church in Vegas,

they put some meat behind Lee's talk.

And through the experimental culture that's there,

they created an experiment called Sessions,

which is really the heart of this conversation.

Now, we do talk about Sessions and this idea of the complementary content

that goes alongside the discipleship strategy and what that looks like.

And to be honest, and I realized this literally in the conversation,

Lee hadn't even finished version one of the experiment.

And so even jumping on a podcast when I was trying to schedule it,

maybe we should have waited a couple of weeks

to finish Experiment 1 and to get official.

But even, you know, Lee being Lee already had a lot of the stuff,

figured out what the next versions needed to look like.

So there's, in this, we do talk about Sessions,

but it's not just about Sessions

and it's not just about the complementary content.

The larger theme and what I love about the crossings in Vegas

is this idea of an experimental culture within a church

where we're going to try something different.

We're going to learn from it.

We're going to iterate.

We're going to try again.

And it's one of the wins that I think makes Lee so adaptable

and the crossing so healthy in this COVID season

because people are willing to experiment.

The church as a culture is willing to experiment

and learn lessons through it.

And so that's really the thread that I wanted to pull in this conversation.

We're bringing in Lee Coat,

executive pastor with the Crossings Church.

He's also with the Growmentum Consulting Group,

as well as myself, Jeff with the Church Digital,

in a conversation that I'm simply calling

Complementary Content and Experimenting Culture.

Okay, everybody, here you go.

Hey, so just even as we're opening up a little bit,

tell us about your role and what you do at Crossings

or the Crossing at Vegas.

Yeah, Jeff, thanks for having me.

I've served for the last 15 years at the Crossing.

It's a 20-year-old church,

so we love to still think of ourselves as a church plant,

but in reality, we're not.

We just passed that 20-year threshold

during our favorite season of all time, COVID.

And I've been there for 15 years.

And my role really is,

the best way I can describe it,

is really to lead out our ministries,

which involves a lot of strategic conversations,

trying to kind of work alongside our lead guy

to bring vision to that,

while at the same time over the last couple of years,

working with an organization called Grow Minim,

where we're kind of doing the same thing

that I'm doing with my team,

but on an expanded basis.

And so we're working with churches all across the country

to have those kinds of strategic conversations.

And even the conversations that you and I

are going to dive into a little bit today.

And so I love being able to do both

the work that I do here in Las Vegas,

but also the work that I get to do

all over the place with other church leaders.

We use the term in the Grow Minim organization I'm with,

we want to balance the working in it

with the working on it.

And so a lot of what I get to do with other churches

is become sort of that work on it guy

when I'm in the room or I'm on a phone call

and just remind them to get out of the in it a little bit.

And so I get to do the same thing though,

day to day with my team.

And so I'm hoping we're having a little bit

of a work on it conversation as well, you know.

No, I love it.

It's such a small difference, nuanced phrase, right?

To work in it and then to work on it.

But it's amazing so often,

and I don't want to die on this hill,

but in my ministry career,

there's just seasons where it's been in the middle of it

and everything's running, you know,

and the next church service is 167 hours away

and there's so much stress in it

that you almost don't have that ability

to step back and really look,

especially in this COVID season.

It's been really hard to step back

and see the big picture.

Yeah.

And one of the very simple

and obvious ways that we coach teams

and they love the reminder is

I think you have to be intentional around the on it.

And that even dials itself down to,

and I have to do the same.

It even dials itself down to whether it be a percentage

of a rhythm of gathering that you do as a team

that is set aside,

whether within one meeting

or within a series of meeting

that you literally,

and I've literally done it before

where you literally say

this is a work on it conversation

that we're going to have

because the reality is

we're always going to drift to in it.

Someone's always going to want to have a conversation

around who did this and who did that

and why didn't we do this

and this calendar

and this ball got dropped.

That's always going to be our default.

So the work on it opportunities

have to be intentional

in order for them to even happen.

And you referenced it, Jeff, so well.

We are in a season,

especially when we're in a season of disruption

where the working on it becomes even more vital

because we're not even clear what we're in.

So true.

And it was in one of those seasons.

It was a watershed moment for me.

And I'm actually,

I'm trying to remember the context.

I think we were in a coaching call together

with a group of churches we were working

and I was working with Stadia.

And you started talking about this idea

of small groups that the model,

you know, I don't think you used the word broken,

but it was more in line of

is this even working

not only for the COVID season,

but just in general.

And then we,

I remember we jumped on a clubhouse

and started talking about this idea

of Peloton with small groups.

And what happened to clubhouse?

What happened to clubhouse?

That came, oh my gosh.

Oh my gosh.

Well, now everybody's doing clubhouse.

You know, I just,

I just saw that Facebook's doing audio only

and Twitter's doing spaces.

And, and, and, and it's like, yeah,

I mean, and I love clubhouse for the season,

but it was so hard to get clubhouse

to get my audience to clubhouse.

And now everybody else picking it up.

I feel bad for clubhouse,

but I guess it's, I don't,

is it still, is it,

I guess it's still around.

I haven't, I haven't been on it

in a minute or two.

I would only go on

because you were there, Jeff.

So when you stopped, I stopped.

So there you go.

Oh, thank you so much.

Oh, so much love in the room.

I appreciate that.

But I mean, it just, if nothing,

clubhouse gave the opportunity

to talk crazy,

to start to talk outside of the box.

And, and, and I've loved

some of the conversations

we've had in coaching

and, and, and, and in that

talking about this idea of,

man, small groups were struggling

to really see that as,

as a viable piece of,

of, of discipleship moving forward.

And, and I know, you know,

through there, I know in this conversation,

maybe six months, a year ago,

you were, you were thinking

some crazy stuff

and wanting to experiment

with some things

talking about what is now

at the crossing called sessions.

Yeah, I was, I was ranting

a little bit.

I was ranting a little bit, Jeff.

Was that, was that

what you would call that?

Holy ranting.

Okay.

Holy ranting.

Okay.

So maybe talk,

talk a little bit about this.

What, what were some

of the pain points

that you were feeling

centered around small groups?

I think, you know,

I want to dive into

that conversation,

I think to just give

a little context

and you and I were tracking

because we were in

a lot of conversations,

especially during that season.

I think that,

I think the context

of what became sessions

is really about

reframing the question

more than trying

to figure out the answers.

And I think what,

what really was troubling

to me was,

you know,

the, the Peloton experience,

which you and I both

participated in to some degree,

you know,

and just kind of looking

at that and going,

what, what code

have they cracked

that makes me wake up

at four 30 in the morning

to get on a ride

with thousands of people

all over the world

and do it happily

and then receive the benefits

physically in my health

if I do it consistently.

And, and as we began

to bounce things around,

I began to ask the question

that probably we don't

really want to ask

around reframing

the question of

what is the objective

of what we have created

the concept of community groups,

life groups,

small groups,

home groups,

whatever we call it,

what is the primary objective?

And if I was trying

to accomplish

this primary objective

in the season we're in,

would this be the methodology

in which I would do it?

That's really outside

of the ranting that I did,

really the, the,

the onus of the conversation

because Peloton

can, in a sense,

I'll use the word guarantee.

In other words,

if you and I are faithful

to their platform

and we ride diligently,

even if our,

even if our diet

is not that improved,

we will,

we will be healthier.

It is beneficial to us.

We will gain some benefit.

I was frustrated

with some of the continual framing

of small groups,

small groups,

small groups,

small groups with our context,

not as a, not as I love small.

I love the idea of small groups.

I love the idea of people

being in community,

connecting deeply.

This, that's not

what it was about.

It was about,

was that really happening

or were we just continually

pushing something out

that failed to reach

the objective,

but yet we had no ability

to ask a new question

around what could be.

And so that,

that was the,

the sort of like,

okay, what do we do now?

As I talk about sessions,

a couple of things

I want to say

right off the bat,

and then we can dive

into the concept.

Number one,

we are in the first season of it

and we are learning

in the midst of it.

The things that we theorized

have not all been true.

The, the, the,

the things that we are

experiencing,

experimenting with,

we have had many learnings

and we can talk about those,

Jeff.

But I think

what we did well with it,

and I probably should explain it

and then tell people

what we did.

What we did well with it

is we did not blow

anything up

in order to do it.

Let me say that again

for your listeners.

We did not blow

anything up

to innovate.

And I realized that sometimes

you just have to innovate.

What we decided to do

is sort of that

three box

theory

that,

there was a book

written a few years ago

called

The Three Box Solution.

Basically,

the concept was

keep doing your primary thing

and innovate over here

and figure out

what, what's,

what's the win

in the innovation

and then integrate it

into your primary thing.

And so,

we've kind of taken

that approach

with sessions

and what it is.

And now you want me to say,

what is it?

Yeah, no, no, no.

I feel like we talked

about the three box thing.

Last time,

I actually did a podcast

with you.

We had to link back

to that.

I love that.

Yeah, okay.

So, fine.

Make me ask the question.

What is sessions?

Like, what,

what were you hoping

to accomplish here

with some of this experiment?

Yeah, so about six months ago,

we sat down

and made a commitment

as a team,

put a person,

a couple people

primarily in charge

of producing it.

And the concept is,

is that we would develop

15-minute video podcast

that would be around

a variety of topics

with a variety of,

a variety of perspectives

that would be provided.

Our tagline that we created

was tap into growth

wherever you are.

And the concept was

to use a app-based platform

to produce 15-minute

video media podcasts

that would then be pushed out

to people at specific times.

So here's a couple

of the nuances

or the platform,

the foundations

that we were working off

of our theories.

Number one is we wanted it

to be initially app-based.

Number two is we wanted it

to have a community,

i.e. a chat feature

that would go along with it

so that people

that were watching

at the same time

would watch.

Thirdly,

and most importantly,

we wanted it to have

a scheduling aspect.

So we wanted it

to be something

that on our weekend gatherings,

our primary time,

whether in person

or online,

people were focused

on the crossing,

that we would have people

intentionally schedule

the time that they

would carve out

to do that.

And then they would show up

during that time,

there would be interaction

through the chat,

they would view the video

or listen to the video.

It wasn't necessary

that they view it

and that they would interact

and be able to

be a part of it.

So we launched it

in September.

Some of the topics

were I did a leadership

and faith lab

where I did interviews

with local faith,

local leaders

who had a faith path

and how that intersected.

We did one called

Popaganda,

which was pop culture

and kind of a podcast dialogue

around pop culture.

We did one

that was sort of,

sorry, Dave Ramsey,

it was kind of

a compressed money conversation.

We did one

around the book

of 1 John.

So we had one

of our teaching pastors

just do basically

a Bible study format

around that.

And we launched it

in September,

pushed it out

really hard to our church

and encouraged them

to say,

hey, we are going

to innovate together.

We actually use that term.

We let them know

that we are trying

to discover some new things

with what we're doing.

What we're,

I mean,

it never occurred to me

when you're experimenting,

like tell your audience,

your people,

hey, we're innovating,

we're trying something new here.

Did they give feedback?

Was it positive?

supportive?

Like what were

some of the responses?

You know,

and you're two months in,

right?

September,

so relatively new,

at least when we're recording this.

Yeah, we'll finish,

we'll finish next week

and we already,

we will,

we have already done

some things within it

that have tweaked it a little

and we will debrief

and make some decisions

around what the future

of sessions is

in the next few weeks.

I will comment on that

a little bit.

Of course,

we got feedback.

Of course,

we got,

you know,

helpful feedback

from,

from,

from our participants.

Couple things.

Number one,

we did make the decision.

We felt like someone,

someone may be listening to this

and going,

well,

isn't there things like

right now media

or,

you know,

can I just go on

and listen to podcasts

and just encourage my people?

And of course,

those things are there.

We,

we felt like

the incentive

for our people

was for the content

to be known

to be our,

you know,

our intellectual property

and to have faces

and conversations

with people

that they would relate to.

And so we,

we made that effort.

That was the,

that was the bulk

of the work for our team

was the time

that was spent

pre-recording those.

So we made some decisions

to actually pre-record

that content

and then play it

and roll it out

on a week-to-week basis,

which will be part

of our debrief

as to whether

we do some things

differently in the future

as far as that goes.

I would imagine

as much work

goes into the content though,

the community aspect,

the engagement

through the app,

the commenting

and things like that,

that's,

that's really where

you get the payoff.

That,

that's where you,

you are winning

the losing the battle.

What was the,

you know,

I would love to dive

into the content piece,

but what was the engagement?

What did that,

what does that look

like so far?

So we learned a couple

things that we learned

because obviously

this is a digital podcast

about the church.

We learned that

there are some amazing

things that you can do

with app platforms

and there are also

limitations.

So we learned

and are working

with our developers

just to try to eliminate

some of those

limitations there

because the,

the conversational

chat piece

was actually

one of the most

challenging

for people

intuitively

to be able

to interact

with the video

and have that

chat piece.

So one of the

conversations

we will have

going forward

is does

our media,

does the actual

content

need to live

on another

platform

and access

the content

from another

platform?

What we love

about the app

based

and we'll stay

with it

is it is the,

we believe

that the app

is the portal

because we,

we would get up,

we will get up

every weekend

as a part

of our normal

blah, blah, blah,

blah, blah.

And we will say

make sure

that you schedule

your session

this week

and,

and get that

on your calendar.

And the easiest

way for people

to do that

is to interact

through the app,

through our,

our app

and to make

that happen.

The media

itself

is still,

is still

a little problematic

through the app

and it's not

as intuitive

for those

who are not

as tech savvy.

And so

some of the feedback

we got

was just

the challenges

that people had

doing that.

And so

we'll continue

to innovate,

we'll continue

to tweak

and we're

kind of committed

to try to figure

it out.

I love that,

that commitment,

you know,

a lot of,

a lot of churches

probably would have,

you know,

hey,

here's free church

app.com,

see if you can

get it to work out.

Oh, look,

shockingly,

it didn't work out.

Okay,

let's move on

to the next thing.

And,

you know,

your,

your church,

your organization

has always

been one

of these

innovative,

experimental,

you know,

and there's a,

there's a commitment

here specifically

with this.

I mean,

you're,

you're one version

in and you're not

even done

with the first round

and it's like,

okay,

here's how we're

going to improve it.

One of the decisions

we made,

Jeff,

in the middle of it

that I think

I want to insert

here is,

normally,

I think you would

kind of run

something,

you'd create

something,

run it.

We did make

the decision

about three

or four weeks

in that because

it was an

eight-week run

that we were

going to innovate

a little bit

within the,

the first run.

We didn't want

to just let it go

knowing that there

were potential tweaks

or problems

and then deal

with it later.

We felt like

with the eight weeks

if there were

known things

that we wanted

to pivot on,

there's the word,

if we wanted to,

if we wanted to pivot

on that we should

do it within the season

so we could evaluate it.

And so even in this,

I believe this is

the seventh week

as we record this,

we're still pivoting

in small ways

within the platform

to try to solve

some problems

and make it more

accessible for people.

I love it.

What's the win?

Like,

do you have a goal?

What's the scoreboard

on this?

How are you measuring success?

Right.

So we are obviously

tracking,

we are tracking

the metrics

of people that are

interacting.

What are the views?

I think we are evaluating,

I think we are okay,

I think we're happy

with our views,

we're not blown away

with our views

and so we're looking

at that and going,

okay,

how do we improve that?

The one caveat of that

is sort of like

as we have had

this conversation

about Sunday metrics

and who's watching

and how long

are they watching,

I think the one caveat

is we believe that

when people are watching,

they are watching.

Does that make sense?

Because it's very intentional,

you're not going to stumble

onto these sessions,

so if there is 100 people

that watched

Leadership and Faith Lab,

they watched it,

like they most likely

interacted with it

in a deep way.

So we're tracking metrics

not only for

what is working

but also to see

what people are interested in.

So we have seven

different sessions

that ran

and we're going

to be able to look at,

you know,

we thought this was

a great topic

that people cared about

and nobody chose it

and so it's going

to give us some feedback

on what,

doesn't mean we'll

eliminate it forever

but what are people

most concerned about?

What are their felt needs?

How can we directly,

biblically

and through our content

address those?

Are you concerned

at all with,

okay,

so weekend services,

I'm just curious,

this is going to be

a build-up question,

weekend services,

physical, digital,

pre-COVID,

what percentage

is back in the building

right now

with Crossing?

So we are

just about

in the high 50% range,

so somewhere between

55 and 60% in room.

Our online

has continued

to be a focus

of ours

and we have not

drifted drastically

from that.

I'll just make a comment

on that, Jeff,

is, you know,

I think we are theorizing

and I know you're

having these conversations.

Our theory is that

20% of our people

are gone,

of our pre-COVID people.

Like,

they're just,

they may be able

to be reached again

but they are not

like sitting there

still waiting to come back.

They're just gone.

Their habits have changed,

they've,

whatever.

We believe there's

probably another

15 to 20%

to get us to that 60

of where we are now

that are still

sort of ghosts.

They're still hovering

out there.

They're giving.

They might even be

participating in some way

but they're not showing up

in the building

currently.

We know some of that

because they're continuing

to do some of our

other engagement things

even though they're

not necessarily

showing their face

at the larger gathering,

i.e. giving.

Some of them

may be even participating

in a small group

or in sessions

but not doing

the showing up.

We also think

our rhythm,

if we used to say

people would come

once every two

to three weeks,

we think that rhythm

has changed as well

and so the frequency

that people are actually

in the room

is probably impacting

some of that

attendance figures as well.

What do you think it is?

Do you think

it's less than a month

at this point

if we reached 0.8?

I think it's still

probably once a month

but I think

the largest percentage

of your people

are not coming.

Yeah,

they're not coming

over 50% of the time

in a particular month.

But again,

I have no basis of that.

I have no way

of really putting

any data around it.

It's just my gut.

So 50%

of your pre-attendance,

50 to 60%

of your pre-COVID

attendance

is back physical.

Crossing has been

very strong

digitally.

Now you're moving

small groups

once again,

you know,

or maybe

that's another question.

Is this complementing

the small groups?

Is this complementing

the small groups?

So,

as I said earlier,

we made the decision

to not disrupt

small groups.

So we're a rooted church.

We run rooted

as an on-ramp

to our small groups.

We did that this fall.

It was a pretty

successful fall,

surprisingly,

and we had a couple

online rooted groups

that did very well.

They continue to run.

Our small group

communities in homes

continue to run

as best they could,

though they've obviously

taken a hit

with pandemic concerns.

I think one of the

post-beta session

conversation will be

how can we now

move this,

assuming we continue,

how can we move this

so that our small groups

can align with it?

I.e.,

you know,

we need to have

some conversation

around can small groups

access this content

within their small group

and then use it

as a launching point

for their collaborative

conversation as a group.

So there's going to be

some conversation

around how do we

create that environment.

Yeah,

and that was,

fear is not the right word,

so I would be okay with it,

but there would be

a lot of tension of,

okay,

so this is another

self-directed,

automated,

being church in isolation

type of tool.

And as much as people

are freaking out about,

you know,

the Hebrews,

don't abandon

the gathering of this,

there's,

I could totally see

having that conversation,

you know,

I'm,

honestly,

I'm more okay with it

because I'm a digital

community guy,

but I know that there'd be

a lot of concern with that

within the church,

within the experiment.

And it's funny,

like,

oftentimes I feel that

church leaders

are more concerned

about that than

church lay people.

Lay people,

like the actual people,

your audience,

your attenders,

people you're discipling,

I don't think are nearly

as concerned about

these issues as much

as we church leaders

tend to be.

Have you seen any of that

in this experiment?

Well,

I've seen it in my,

I've seen it in this experiment,

mostly just in the sense of,

I think,

in fairness to our team,

mostly,

I don't think there's a problem

with the digital aspect of it.

I think we've had more

conversations around the ROI.

You know,

with the amount of work

and the amount of execution

that it takes,

we just have to have

hard conversations

is the return on investment there.

And so,

we'll continue to have

those conversations.

Again,

my role is to kind of

be that advanced strategy guy.

So,

I want to be careful

that we don't cut something

before it actually has a chance

to bloom and blossom.

So,

I'll probably be the guy

continuing to push for,

let's continue into this,

while others may just look at it

and go,

well,

we didn't get enough eyes on it,

so let's move on.

And I think

that is probably,

that conversation

is probably happening

in a lot of churches

I work with with Gromentum,

where now that online has,

you know,

as regathering has happened,

I think that's

some form of that conversation

I'm dealing with

with some of my interactions

with people of like,

well,

let's look at online.

It's not really what it was

back in April

when everyone was locked down

in their house.

So,

you know,

let's,

how much energy

do we want to put into it?

Unfortunately,

I think that is,

that's the missed opportunity,

right?

It's,

how much do we want to invest

in developing an electric car

15 years ago

and going,

yeah,

let's not waste our time

because no one's driving them.

And,

I think that's the moment

that the church is probably in

when it comes to digital right now

is we could just continue

to build gas engines

and then wake up

five,

10 years from now

and go,

man,

no one's driving our car anymore.

No one's buying our cars anymore.

So,

I think that's the tough

responsibility we have

is we have to run

that innovation digitally

probably alongside

the stuff that we continue

to do in this season

of disruptive flux.

Awesome.

So,

I'm going to take that clip

and I'm going to play it

for like 5,000 senior leaders.

Do it.

Because that was,

that was very well said.

Thank you for that.

Um,

how,

how do you get your church

to even have that,

that mindset?

Like,

I'm joking here,

but that,

that this mindset

is,

is very rare

in,

even in 2021 post COVID.

Like,

there's just so many churches

want to try and revert back

to quote unquote normal.

Uh,

February 2020

was the golden age of church.

Let's,

let's get back to

however it was

pre COVID.

And,

and,

but your church,

the crossing

and you as,

as a senior leader,

you've,

you've always been,

um,

at least in the amount of time

that I've,

I've known you very forward

that faith thinking,

very innovative,

very creating that,

that,

uh,

experimental culture.

Yeah,

there's ROI.

Yeah,

you need to justify some things

and that actually makes

the experiment better.

That's not a hindrance.

It's an opportunity

to,

to perfect

and to expand.

How do you get that culture?

How do you keep that culture

in a church like the crossing?

I would say a couple of things

to your question of innovation.

Number one,

as we mentioned earlier,

I believe that you need to find,

you need to allow space

for innovation

in a way that will not be disruptive

of,

of your core competency.

I want to repeat that

because I think that's where

some senior leaders

can be okay with innovation.

If they feel like,

okay,

you're still going to let me get up.

You're still going to want people

to be in the room,

right?

I think where I'm dealing

with senior leaders

that are pushing back

is because the,

all the Uber innovators

are trying to convince them

that having people

in the room

doesn't matter anymore.

And I think they're not there

and will not be there.

I think that's,

I think that,

you know,

that's like saying

we're not going to have cars anymore.

We're going to float around

like the Jetsons.

I don't think maybe we will.

I don't think those

that are leading

are there yet.

And so I think to be able

to allow them

to continue to,

experience the things

that are the normal

and then the senior leader's

responsibility

is to continue

to allow the innovation

to happen.

But I would say

to the innovators out there,

be okay innovating over here.

Don't be in such a hurry

to move your innovation

into the mainstream

because you may not

ever get to innovate.

Secondly,

I think,

I think every team

needs an instigator.

They need an innovative instigator

and they need somebody

who's going to speak

for change,

creativity,

what could be,

right?

Because if you look

at the cycle of COVID

or any disruption,

it's sort of that idea

of what was,

what is,

what was yesterday,

what is today,

and what can be tomorrow.

And I think

if I'm a senior leader,

I'd look around the room

and go,

who are the,

what can be,

what,

who are the tomorrow thinkers?

And if you look

around your room

and they're not there,

I would,

I would go back to,

I would go back

to my space

and try to figure out

how to get some

of those in the room.

Even if that's not you,

or I would actually say,

especially if that's not you

and you're wiring,

I would make sure

that you have them

because I think

we're in a,

we're going to be

in a decade of,

of,

of innovation,

both digitally

that Jeff care,

you care a lot about,

but also I just think

dynamically

in the role of the church

and the role of church

in culture

is going to continue

to just be crazy.

And so to be able

to have someone

who's a,

an innovative instigator

on your team

would be key.

And it's,

it's funny,

like I've,

I've spoken,

I mean,

obviously I've,

I've been championing

digital for 20 years,

19 years,

18 years of it,

I don't think anybody cared

and all of a sudden

it's a big deal now.

But,

one of the things

that I often get told

is,

hey Jeff,

you're really championing

disruption,

but you do it humbly.

Like,

for whatever reason,

it just,

it was funny,

I was speaking out

at California

at Saddleback,

name dropped there,

sorry,

but,

and as part of that

coming along,

I had a global leader

come up to me

and she's like,

you were much more

humble in that presentation

than I was expecting

you to be

because it was

very disruptive,

you know,

some of the stuff

that I'm talking about,

the idea of a global

church digitally,

but then it was also

framed around,

am I right here?

Make this better.

Give me feedback.

I want,

I want insight

from you,

global leader.

You understand

the global perspective

better than I do

and,

and by inviting people

into the conversation,

it was not me

passing some crazy

directive along

as much as me

inviting them into,

you know,

your language,

that one of the three boxes,

the sandbox

that I can experiment in

and now invite others

to come play with me

and so I just

at a personal level,

I have found a lot

of success in that

because it's not,

it's not my experiment,

it's our experiment.

Come,

come be part of that.

Let me be open-handed

in this season

with you on that.

Jeff,

that's so great.

I love that so much.

I think some of the

backstory of sessions,

whatever it becomes,

is when someone,

when someone tells the story

of the birth of it

or even just,

hey,

remember when we did that

and we thought it was cool

or whatever,

the birth of it

is really a series

of conversations

happening in the hallway

and over the coffee machine,

the Keurig.

It really was.

I mean,

part of,

as you talk about humility,

part of my innovative strategy

is I tend to just

come up with an idea

and talk about it

with anybody

I can talk about it with

and by the time

we get in the room

to actually formalize it,

everybody's already on board.

So sometimes you can innovate

in the hallway

and then you go down

and have that other conversation

and sessions was that way.

It was like,

what do you think about this?

What do you think about this?

And what if we did this?

You know,

and then we get on the,

we get on a call

with our app person,

Subsplash,

name drop there,

free,

free,

free marketing.

We get on with Subsplash

and we say,

guys,

we have this idea.

Can you guys help us

make this happen?

And fortunately,

they're innovators

as well as many of these companies

like them are.

And they're like,

absolutely,

because if you guys

can pull this off,

it will help us

with our product.

And so we innovated

alongside a known product

that we were already using

and it just helped us.

And I think,

I think your words are good

because I think a lot of our,

a lot of innovators

are very confident

to what makes them good.

But I think that arrogance

can destroy that innovation,

especially in a local church context.

Guys, listen,

if you're listening to this,

there are senior leaders

that are sitting in an office

and they're watching

the bottom line

and they have people

that they are accountable to

and you get a paycheck

every month

if you're employed

by the local church

and their response,

they feel that responsibility.

So they have a lot

of other things

that they're juggling

while you're out there

dreaming about changing the world.

And so just at least

be empathetic to that

and allow your innovation

to work,

have a degree of empathy

within your innovative mindset.

All right.

So let me ask this.

There's some guy out there

right now,

some gal,

somebody has heard this.

They're like,

I want to create a sandbox

in my church to work on.

I understand that

I can't launch this

to the entire church.

My church doesn't have

that culture,

but I really want to figure out

how to create

one of those boxes

that I can work in separately.

Give them some advice.

How do they get started?

How do they even approach this?

Senior leadership

may not even be

on this page.

How do they get started?

Two things I would look for.

Number one,

I would look for

within the area

that I'm specifically

responsible for

that I have some degree

of autonomy in.

I would look for ways

in which I could innovate there.

If there are opportunities

that are not as macro,

I would look for micro innovations

that are there.

I think secondly,

I would actually

be very senior leader aware.

I believe senior leaders

are going to be more open

to innovation

if you're solving a problem

that they care about.

So if you're innovating

because you listen

to Jeff Reed's podcast

and you think your church

needs to have this,

but your senior leader

doesn't care about it,

you're going to have

a harder time.

If you can identify

some of the areas

that your senior leader

is sleepless about

and lay over innovation

and help them solve

those problems,

you're probably then going to,

here's what you're going to do,

you're going to begin

to build the sandbox

that will allow you

to do much more creative,

innovative ideas.

But I think too often

we make too large of a leap

and we're not solving

a problem

that anybody

in our senior leadership

actually sees as a problem.

So I would have

some awareness there for sure.

Yeah, very much so.

And that's really the,

you know,

the core of almost

leading from the second chair.

Find ways for you

to get your win

and your senior leader

to get the win as well.

And this is something,

I mean,

it's just a name drop episode,

Eric Geiger

over at Mariner's Church.

I was under him

at Christ Fellowship Miami

and this is probably

one of the greatest lessons

Eric ever taught me.

Jeff, use the language

of your senior leadership.

Like, you may be

thinking differently,

but you need to frame

whatever you're thinking

in the terms

that your leadership

understands.

And so as you get

that, your mindset,

you're in their language,

in their framework,

in context of the direction

of what they're thinking,

you're far more likely

to get that engagement piece.

And so that's beautiful.

And just love the idea

of, you know,

you're probably

not the decision maker,

but you need to get

the decision makers

on board.

And so that's

some great advice,

Lee, with that.

Well, I tell you what,

great conversation.

I'm going to have to say

hey to the people

over at Subsplash.

I know they've been excited

to work on this project

and I've been getting

kind of updates,

at least from their perspective,

along the way

with what's going on.

So excited that

you're moving on.

I love the fact

that you're not even done

with V1 here

and moving on.

All right, one more question

and then we'll land the plane.

Did you feel like

you rolled this out too soon?

Or, because a lot of times,

you know, it's like,

you know, you want it

to be perfect at launch

and, you know,

I'm always the guy

that's like version one

is better than version none.

If you're not embarrassed

by your first version,

you know, you've waited too long.

So you're almost done

with the first take.

Where are you sitting

in the chair now?

Would you rather have waited

to perfect some of this stuff

or do you feel like

maybe you waited too long

and you should have

started earlier?

What's your take right now?

My take at the moment

is not having debriefed

officially with the team

and looked at it.

My take is at the moment

is we did what we rarely do

and that is that our timing

was pretty on point.

And that doesn't happen

all the time

because I tend to be impatient

and discontent

and want to move.

But I think what we did well

is that this idea

really emerged last spring

and we gave ourselves

six to seven months

of both time

to develop the technology

alongside Subsplash

but also to develop

the content.

This content

that we're putting out

was it.

it was a massive task

and part of our debrief

will be

we cannot

we cannot sustain

the that

form of content creation

over the long term.

So some of this

the ability

to sustain sessions

as an idea

will need us

to innovate

in the way

that we deliver

that content

or create that content

I should say

because the way

we did it

all summer long

three, four months

of ongoing content creation

is not sustainable

for us as a team

and so

but I would say

if we did

if we

if we had waited

any longer

we would not have

had the window

to create the content

but if we would have

waited longer

I believe the energy

my sense is

the energy around

the idea

probably would have

waned

and the level

at which

so here's a learning

the level at which

it demanded

engagement on our team

I don't think

we would have been able

to justify

or get the level

of ownership

that we got

six months ago

with this idea

today

I think

as the world

continues to move forward

if I would have

walked in and said

let's try this

there would have been

more pushback

based on

the speed

at which ministry

is accelerating again

and so

we found that

perfect window

where ministry

wasn't accelerating

at the speed

it is now

or the demands

of ministry

that allowed us

to pull this off

and now

we'll talk

about

how do

how do we

sustain this

what does

a sustainable

model

look like

based on

what we learned

for example

I don't think

we'll do

eight weeks

again

I think

we've learned

that eight weeks

is pretty tough

for anything

I think a lot

of churches

learn that

right

eight weeks

is kind of

the extent

of it

and I'm curious

and Jeff

you're the question

but I'm going to

ask you a question

I'm curious

whether something

digital

has eight weeks

of sustainability

or not

we're seeing

the drift

at the end

that you normally

would get

of anything

I think we're

seeing that

elevated

because it is

virtual and digital

to some degree

so I think

we're going to

go back

and probably

look at

maybe more

of a four

to six week

role

which then

will eliminate

some of that

content creation

demand

as well

I would

agree with that

and even

groups that want

to start

online small groups

the first small group

you should join

is four weeks

three weeks

super short

super easy

super safe

test the waters

experiment

and learn for them

I think in hindsight

we would have done it

probably four weeks

would have been

a better beta

to just have

a lot of energy

around it

have it come