EP196: TCD Podcast Network Presents the Top Podcasts of 2021

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast, powered by Stadia Church Planting.

Through this podcast, learn about how God is using technology and innovation in digital

and digital environments around the world.

Our goal?

To help churches like yours learn to be the church digitally.

Our heart?

That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple-making that will revolutionize

your church.

And now, your host, here's Jeff Reed.

All right, hey, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

We're going to have a fun episode here.

Hey, congratulations, y'all survived Christmas.

I know it was close, it was tight, it was nervous.

Some of you were really freaking out.

But hey, ministry in the Christmas season is hard and it's stressful.

Unfortunately, it's one of these seasons.

We talked about seasons and margins and boundaries and stuff like that in the podcast last week.

Last week's podcast was a little heavy, you know, coming into the Christmas season, a lot

of stress with that.

But hey, we just, we wanted to have a little more fun in the season.

So we are doing the 2021 Podcast Awards.

And by we, I mean the Church Digital Podcast Network.

Now, what's interesting is most of you out there are like, what are you talking about

a podcast network?

So yeah, hey, by the way, 2022, just in a matter of weeks, we are starting up a podcast network

and we're going to be rolling out, you know, you are getting an inside scoop here because

we are rolling out a bunch of changes with the Church Digital and are really starting to

look at aggressively platforming more speakers, more content, more resources to help churches

like yours understand how to manage digital.

And the great thing is it's more than just me because I have my nuances.

I have the things that I'm looking for and I work for some churches.

But here's an inside scoop.

I don't work for everybody.

Like some of the stuff that I talk about, the aggressiveness of the approach, it's not

for every church.

And so rather than, you know, just serving the small group, the niche group that's wanting

to be more experimental and aggressive, we're really moving into the season of wanting to

embrace more, of helping a whole lot of different churches where regardless of where they are,

what they're looking for.

And so we're going to get to the podcast at awards.

We're going to get there in a little bit.

The best of 21.

I'm kind of excited where we're going, but I want to take a moment here.

Let's introduce, this is just some of the team.

Some of the team wasn't able to make it today, but some of the team here with where we're

going.

And so first off, we've got Tom Pounder, TCD sidekick.

This guy's been doing digital ministry for maybe, actually, Tom, you have been doing it

longer than me, like on the, like for a church.

So congratulations, Grandpa.

You're the guy.

Do you want to, you want to maybe talk a little bit, share a little bit about, about who you

are?

Yeah.

I'm Tom Pounder.

I'm in Northern Virginia, which is just outside of Washington, DC, about 25 minutes.

But with traffic, it's actually probably like an hour or more.

So, but yeah.

Isn't everything like an hour around there?

Yeah.

It's a little crazy.

Now that we just heard a stat though, that traffic is down 65% from 2019.

So even though it's, you know, it's improving, it's still kind of insane at times.

It took a global pandemic to get there.

Thank you, COVID.

Like that just, is, is there anything, COVID is the gift that just keeps on giving that.

Thank you for that.

That was beautiful.

You know, what's great about that is it still takes an hour.

That's right.

All the construction that's going on, that happens all the time.

I've been doing ministry since 1997.

Student ministry is my background.

And I started doing online ministry around 2014, 2015.

And when we wanted to start doing online ministry, we were given some cameras and given the HD 500

from Exponential and they let us use it.

And so we started doing it.

And so they, they nominated me because I was the student minister and they said, oh, you're

on social media.

You could easily pick this up, which I had no idea how to do.

So yeah.

So I've been doing that.

It's been fun.

It's been awesome.

I like to blog, I like to podcast, and you can find all my stuff at thechurch.digital.

I love doing that stuff and just kind of writing about digital stuff.

So, and how it applies into our practical ministry experiences.

I love that.

And so Tom's podcast is TCD Sidekick.

It publishes on Wednesdays, still going right now and rolling through.

Love that.

Hey, let's, let's get to the next one.

I'm excited about all these guys, but Andy Mage is coming on.

And Andy, I've, I've known for, we were trying to figure it out pre-COVID, maybe, maybe two

and a half, three years connected with him through an online Bible study.

I was leading with some other digital pastors back pre-COVID.

Andy, tell us a little bit about, about you, your ministry and, and, and what you're looking

to do here with the podcast moving forward in 22.

Yeah.

I'm Andy Mage.

I am a digital pastor for Bay Hope Church down in Tampa, Florida.

But more than that, I'm looking to expand the kingdom digitally because there's such a large

ministry field out there right now.

And there's a lot of, a lot of people that need to feel the love of Jesus in the online

sphere.

And so that's what we're here to do.

And, uh, yeah, like, like Jeff said, we, we connected through a Bible study that I think

back to those years and think, oh man, what, if we would have known what we know now, we

would have been way further ahead right now.

Uh, we would have been doing a whole lot more.

We were, we were so young then, Jeff.

Uh, my beard was, you commented at a meeting yesterday that my beard was starting to get

gray.

And I, while I, I took umbrage at that, I went home and looked in the mirror and went, yeah,

you're getting older.

Uh, yeah, yeah, it, it really is.

That's true.

Um, but yeah, I'm, I'm excited to be part of the, part of the network here to be with

these guys and to everyone else that we're going to be, uh, kind of kicking it with.

Um, I'm looking at starting something new, uh, with the church digital podcast or the church

digital, uh, podcast network, excuse me.

And it, it, it kind of has to deal a little bit on the more production side, but not so

much as cameras and cables and all that other stuff.

Instead, the idea that when we communicate, we're communicating through this kind of glass

eyeball that I'm pointing at.

And if you're listening to this on audio, I just pointed at the camera, uh, that there

are usually thousands of people on the other side of that camera, but realistically you're

only trying to reach one person.

And so I, I want to start a podcast called breaking the fifth wall and it's really sort

of a, a teaching time for pastors and leaders and group leaders and, um, people that are

going to be on camera in the digital kingdom sphere that we're, we're looking to really

minister to.

And, and that's designed around communication.

It's designed around how to actually talk to people when there's not an actual person

there.

When I have to look at a screen to talk to other people, it is a skill.

And it's one of those skills that I think a lot of pastors that I've seen have not mastered.

And so I want to help them.

I want to help the, the greater community out there really start to utilize their communication

skills.

Because let's face it, a lot of these pastors are used to speaking to big groups of people

and they're used to presenting themselves and standing in such a way and blocking in such

a way.

And that doesn't work when all I have is a, you know, a three by four screen or a 16 by

nine screen that I'm at home or in a studio somewhere.

And so breaking the fifth wall is designed to really help people through that journey and

help them really start to communicate and use their gifts the way God intended them to

be used.

Love that content's going to be so important moving forward and, and understanding how to

communicate to that.

Yeah.

Like when you said four, three, I'm not going to lie.

I cringed a little bit inside with, with the, with that resolution, but I hear you.

I feel you, you know, not everybody's doing the super wide that I'm looking at right now.

And so I'm like, it's cool.

We're good.

Hey, so Chesley Lundy's next up and, and, and excited about this.

We've been, uh, I spent some time just recently with Chesley out in Kansas city, hanging out

with Rob Wagner and, and some of the things we're working on, on the digital church network

more on that later, you know, it's kind of like the tea stuff and roll it out slowly,

but Hey, Chesley, maybe talk to hear a little bit about what you're wanting to focus on.

Maybe your ministry story, of course, but what, what you're focusing on in 22, uh, through

the network.

Yeah.

Some of you that have listened to the church digital podcast know that I'm a church planter,

a digital church planter with King city.

And, uh, we are starting a podcast in 2022 called church disrupted.

Clayton Christensen, uh, with the Harvard business Institute talks about disruption of prevailing

models of industry.

And I believe we are probably in the third biggest disruption the church has ever faced.

And so what that means is what got us here won't help us succeed in the future.

And so we need new, uh, and new strategies, new vision.

And so I want to take industry leaders from other industries that I've already been in digital,

uh, the digital playing field for a little while with community building with, uh, infrastructure

and talk to them and get new insights that we can be, begin to translate into the church

world.

So that way we can be successful in the, in the new era of church, which I believe is going

to be our finest hour.

By the way, I love surrounding myself with smart people and then listening to them.

And even just listening to Chesley describe the church disrupted podcast.

That's coming soon.

Yeah, I feel smarter and I'm looking forward to, Hey, hearing that voice and seeing that

out there.

Another smart guy, uh, is going to be Garrett Silji.

And, uh, I listened to him quite a bit when it comes to the live production and some of the

work.

Garrett's been, been a friend for years and has been working, uh, even in this COVID season

has been doing a lot of work with the church digital.

First off, he's, he's the editor of, of all of the podcasts and assembles these together

weekly.

And so he does a great job with that side note.

If you're ever looking for somebody, Garrett and his team does an incredible job at assembling

podcasts.

And so if you're looking for that, I can connect you would be happy to do that.

But he also is, is running a TCD, the church digital production.

We've been running a production company on the side.

It started as a side hustle and it's now it's a very, it's still a side hustle, but it's a

very significant side hustle.

And so Garrett and I are actually now partners, uh, in this business and, and, and running that

out.

And so congratulations, Garrett, um, you know, love having you as a, a

partner.

Like, I mean, that, that, that's a big deal.

So, Hey, but Garrett, talk to me a little bit, uh, man, your ministry story and what

you're looking to do in 22.

Yeah.

Uh, my name is Garrett.

As Jeff said, I, um, I usually like to stay behind the scenes.

So that's why this is the first time you've seen me on the screens.

Um, I'm, I like being in the, the, the behind the camera of the church digital podcast, but,

uh, uh, Jeff's encouragement led me to step out from behind the, the back of the camera

to step in and be able to come and talk a little bit about what I do.

And then also where we're going to go in 2022.

So I'm on staff at a church down in Miami, Florida.

I oversee the production for our local and global campuses, including streaming at a multi-site

church.

And, uh, as we look towards 2022, not only the production company that Jeff mentioned

that, that I, that I work alongside him with, but also, uh, something that he's been encouraging

me on is he said, Hey, you know, you've learned a lot in COVID you've, you've learned a lot

with the side hustle as we look towards helping churches find their voice online.

Um, why don't you talk about it?

And so that's something that we're going to look to do in 2022 is start looking to talk

about and help other churches through the TCD production podcast.

And so whether it's a starter level, whether it's coaching through of, Hey, Christmas is

a tough season for production included, all the events, all the services, everything going

on, and you have your family at home.

And so talking through what all of that looks like, as we look in church 2022, it's not only

the gear, which we will be talking about gear, but also then the heart behind it and what

you experience as you go through those busy seasons and, and letting people know that they're

not alone.

Love it.

Yeah.

There's mental health is definitely a, a hot topic right now with the great resignation that's

rolling into through 21 heading into 22.

We talked about that last week on the podcast and there's going to be more, um, content creators

and blogs and podcasts and streams.

Like with the church digital, we're really wanting to kind of open this up and, and really

become, um, a force within the church just to even acknowledge what some of these things

are and how digital can help and how digital is a different beast that, that needs to operate

in a, in a different way.

And so look for more and including these voices, uh, coming very soon at 22, you'll hear about

that more in the weeks to come, but Hey, we're going to shift gears and let's, let's start

to have some fun here.

Uh, so here's what I did.

I asked these guys, Hey, what are the, what are the podcasts?

What are the things that you've listened to in 21?

What are the most impactful either episodes or shows, Christian church, not church business,

uh, fun stuff.

Like what is the thing that has impacted you in 21?

I've got a list of some, I don't know how many we'll get to here in the time, but would

love to kind of dialogue through here and present some awards because, Hey, we got to present

some awards.

I don't know that, you know, they'll actually get an award, but at least they get like verbal

recognition and a pat on the back.

So number one here to kick this off and, um, most likely Andy, this is going to be you.

This is your, you're, you're kicking off the show right here.

Most likely to listen to at 2X speed, the Dan Lebitard show, uh, with Stu Gatz.

Andy, talk to me.

What, why, why is this?

What, why, why 2X speed?

Why do you like this guy?

Okay.

So let, let me explain real quick.

I do a number of other podcasts throughout.

I do a podcast for our church.

I do a podcast for another company that I work with called the altar live show.

And typically my delivery is a little bit faster.

And so I have to continually tell myself, slow down, slow down, slow down.

Well, this year in 2021, it was a banner year for me.

I upped my podcast listening speed to 1.5 X for everything.

And so in the slow down, slow down, slow down, I'm always trying to speed up, speed up, speed

up because I'm trying to get through as much information as possible because I think I'm

a smarter gentleman than I actually am.

And so I figure, oh, I got to be erudite and listen to my podcast.

Well, the Dan Levitard show is first of all, it's a sports podcast, not a Christian podcast,

fully sports.

They're based out of Miami.

So you guys down in Miami can fist pump along with them if you need to.

Dan Levitard has been around for a thousand years doing podcasts along with this guy, Stu

Gotts, who's just the most despicable human being in the world.

But they create some of the best content in the world.

But the problem is, is that they create so much content.

And so, and they talk so slow sometimes.

And so it fights all of the slow down, slow down, slow down for me.

And so when I'm out working out or running or whatever, I want to get through all their

content because I want to hear everything they have to say, but I don't have the time.

So what do you do?

You flip on overcast, you turn to the 2X, everything feels a little bit speed up.

Your brain turns into mush for about the first three weeks while you're doing this.

And then all of a sudden it starts to make sense and you start to adapt and everything

starts to sound normal.

And so now that I'm listening to us talk here, I'm realizing like, man, we're talking

real, real slow.

Maybe we need to speed up a little bit.

The Dan Levitard show has led me to listen to everything in my life at 2X speed.

And I could not be more thankful to him.

Any other fans, by the way, before I segue, any other fans of Levitard?

Just in the room?

Yeah, it's a guilty pleasure.

I love Stu Gatz so much.

He is despicable.

He is the worst human being in the world.

He really is.

And he plays that character so well.

Yes, he does.

And so I was doing insurance a few years ago and ended up in Miami during spring break.

So I literally slept in my car for a week and a half.

And that's how I made it through was Dan Levitard's Stu Gatz on ESPN.

So yeah.

You know, I actually, I can't, I cannot listen to the Levitard show anymore.

I had to take it.

I had to remove it from my Overcast account.

And this is an honest to God truth.

Don't laugh at me, but you'll laugh at me.

I have a medical condition.

It's actually a severe medical condition.

It's called laughter-induced syncope.

When I laugh so hard, I actually stop breathing and I pass out.

Like I have, I've been sitting in this chair.

I have passed out.

I have fallen.

I've hit my head.

I have had a concussion in the middle of an online Bible study.

True story going, maybe this is maybe three years ago, pre-COVID.

And so like when I listened to the Levitard show, the chances of me laughing so hard I pass

out, increases at such a high level, I almost passed out while driving on the turnpike.

And it's like, I don't think I can do this anymore.

I can't, I cannot listen to this guy because it's so funny.

I just, I can't, I like, I'll die.

It's literally die.

Can you sue them for that?

If you crash your car because you're laughing at their pocket, can you sue them?

Is that how that works?

Are you telling me I could have a chunk of Levitard Empire?

Like I'm not telling anything because we're recording this and it's that red light is on.

You need to consult your lawyer.

Yeah, however, there might be something there for you.

That'll be coming up soon.

All right, so we're going to shift gears now.

Number two, that was beautiful.

Hey, the next one, Tom, this is you.

Most likely to be added to Jeff's Overcast account.

Did not know this was even a thing until Tom said, hey, did you know?

And this is going to be Church Juice.

So Tom, share a little bit here.

What do you think and what do you love about Church Juice?

Well, Church Juice is a kind of a church communications podcast.

They focus on social media stuff and communication stuff.

And, you know, there's a lot of different podcasts out there, church podcasts.

And one of my biggest pet peeves is consistency.

Like you start things and you go gangbusters and you're like, great.

And then you don't do anything for like months at a time.

And so with Church Juice, they've been fairly consistent throughout the year, which has been great.

And they just offer short, like 30-minute episodes where they're encouraging you with practical tips on social media or email marketing.

And it's like one of the co-hosts is my friend, and Jeff, you know her as well, Jeanette Yates.

She's fantastic.

She's from Jacksonville, and she works with Texan Church.

But they do a great job doing that podcast, encouraging church communicators, again, with practical tips.

So I really enjoy it.

Just had a meeting with Jeanette actually like two days ago, and that was the first time I'd heard of the podcast.

Went and just subscribed right then and there while we were talking.

It's been awesome so far.

Yeah, Jeanette's a friend.

By the way, I just told her on Twitter the other day, like, you've got an open invitation.

Anything you ever want to publish on the Church Digital would love it.

Love her voice and excited for me to check out the podcast.

Literally did not know she was doing it.

The last thing, podcast, that I thought she was doing was the two girls and whatever that thing was that she'd stopped a couple years ago.

Two church girls.

Was it?

Two church girls or something like that, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, okay, good.

Cool.

Hey, number three, moving on here.

This is so good.

The church that all of us want to go work at.

Hey, Garrett, this was you.

Why don't you talk a little bit about this one?

As I edit the podcast, I see the titles coming up.

And so I saw this one and I was like, nah, it can't be that easy.

And Jeff finally said, hey, so this podcast is going to be about this.

And I was like, all right, tell me more.

And the podcast, the label of it was about cast member church.

And I was like, are you telling me there is a church devoted solely for cast members?

My wife and I are Disney fanatics.

I proposed in Disney.

We went on our honeymoon in Disney.

And we even already took our one-year-old to Disney.

Like we're diehard Disney fans.

And so when I heard about this, I was like, this is awesome.

The fact that there's a church, not a physical building, but there is a church that is designed at reaching cast members who are a unique group of individuals who are fatigued, who work long, crazy hours.

And probably no one relates to them unless you have been one of them or are one of them.

And so it was just really encouraging as I was sitting there editing the podcast to hear about the team behind the scenes of cast member church and how they just love on a group of people that probably are forgotten a lot of times.

They're probably too tired to ever think about going to church.

And so instead, they decided to say, hey, we're going to create a platform where you can invite and engage people right where you're at and maybe get someone to come and join you that would never walk in the doors of a church.

And so it's completely digital.

They engage people at home.

And the cool part is it's cast members all around the world.

So in case you don't know, there are Disney parks all around the world, and they have people from all of those Disney parks in their group.

And that was just mind-blowing.

It was exciting to hear about what they're doing to engage this neat group.

It's a small group.

It's not – they know this is not going to be the church that's going to have millions of people in it.

But they set off on a mission and said, look, digitally, we can engage a small group of people.

It's not open to everyone.

It's open to people who have that unique background, have that unique ability to relate with each other and be able to say, I know you're tired too.

Let's talk.

And just that one-on-one discipleship of being able to relate to people, being able to pour into people one-on-one and not just speak from a platform and listen in an audience, that method of discipleship is going to be a lot more successful in a group of people that are probably too exhausted or probably fall asleep in a one-hour church service in the building.

And so it was just really exciting to hear about it, and I loved every minute of that podcast.

By the way, if they're looking for a digital pastor, I'll throw my name in the hat.

There's a bunch of people.

If they launch a physical representation of it and they need a production guy, I was like, hey.

We used to joke about opening a multi-site campus at Disney World.

And when I literally stumbled across Stephen here, Stephen Barr, and was like, man, you're actually doing this.

This isn't a joke.

This is your thing.

It's an incredible podcast.

We'll link to it in the show notes as I'm literally wearing a Mickey Mouse shirt on the screen.

You know, hats off to the creativity with him and that.

But, hey, let's move on.

Number four.

We're going to spend a minute on this one.

Podcast that made me question my early faith years.

Hey, Andy, we're going to have a long conversation here, but why don't you get us started?

Everybody in Christendom, I felt like, listened to the rise and fall of Mars Hill from Christianity Today.

And I know for me, I got saved right around the time that Mark Driscoll was really blowing up, really in the early 2000s.

And I don't know about you guys, but I was impacted by Mars Hill.

Not only by Driscoll and his preaching, but by the music.

I got into ministry as a worship pastor.

I was a worship pastor for 12 years.

Mars Hill Worship was doing so many crazy things.

The band I got saved to was this band called Thrice.

And the lead singer was Dustin Kensrew.

And Dustin Kensrew, yeah, he was a worship leader.

And so there was this weird confluence of things.

And so I'm listening to this podcast and going, how did we let this happen?

How, as Christians in the West, did we let some of this happen?

And I sat back and I started to think about the times that I had been out listening to Mark Driscoll on a podcast and going, that formed my early...

And I don't know about the rest of you guys, and I want to hear input, but that formed a lot of my early faith years.

And it made me really, I have journal pages full this year after listening to those podcasts and going, man, do I need to rethink X, Y, and Z about what I had been formed on?

I was a college student, 2007, and I was doing a project for the Emerging Church Movement.

And so Rob Bell, Doug Padgett, Brian McLaren, and then this dude named Mark Driscoll.

And it was the first time I heard verse-by-verse Bible teaching in my life.

I grew up Word of Faith Pentecostal.

Don't hold that against me.

So I was floored.

I was floored.

And then a couple of years later in the military, I got stationed out in Tacoma, Washington, about 40 minutes away from the Ballard campus.

So I ended up traveling there every weekend, got hooked up in a small group.

I went to church there for a year.

Actually, I was flying into Kansas City, Missouri this weekend and finished the last episode called Aftermath, and it wrecked me, man.

I now live in Glendale, Arizona, about 15 miles away from Mark's new church.

And weird thing, the sale of his church building is going to fund my church plant.

So interesting tidbit how it's come full circle.

But I got my call to church planting sitting in Mars Hill Ballard.

Like, I am where I'm at a lot of because a lot of the good reasons that I'm in ministry is because of Mars Hill.

And yet, dude, I asked the same question.

I'm looking inside me going, am I egotistical?

Am I narcissistic?

What do I need to do to get that out of me?

Because I don't want to be that type of leader.

And I'm afraid as you grow platforms like this, the danger of digital church is I think you're going to start seeing a lot of them be influencers.

And they're going to gain notoriety.

And I'm worried about that.

I know that's one of the inherent dangers of what we do.

And so I'm asking God, how do you just dig out that egotistical narcissism in my heart?

So that way, when I come across the people, they don't think I'm an a-hole.

And I don't end up ruining the faith of so many people.

Some of them, my friends that went to church there were on staff there.

Well, and I almost wonder, you said something about the influencers.

I would say that that's already been happening for years.

And we've just been masking it with other things.

And so I'm hoping, and I know that Christianity Today, I don't think they were trying to do like a rip-roaring expose.

But instead, we're trying to smooth out some of the future of the kingdom by looking in the past.

And so I almost feel like the influencer culture that has been taking over everything, shoe brands onto churches, is something that they're looking at and going, we don't want rock star pastors.

We don't want that.

We instead want kind of what we're trying to do here with the Church Digital of let's plant actual kingdom-minded, humble folk all across the world that actually want to reach people for Jesus and not want to platform themselves and make sure that their books get sold and by whatever means necessary and that their Twitter accounts get mentioned and yada, yada, yada.

This hits home for me.

I didn't listen to the podcast, and so I wasn't really informed about Mars Hill growing up or anything like that.

But I will just say what you guys are talking about, the church influencer kind of market and the fact that we all have to have a side hustle that we're known for and we publicize that.

I know church leaders now who are getting paid by church to do this job but are yet doing something completely different as a side hustle and making money, and I think that's a dangerous line that we're walking right now, and we have to be careful.

Our online presence, we have a lot of opportunity to make a huge impact for the kingdom, not for the kingdom of Tom, but the kingdom of God.

So I love this discussion.

I should probably listen to that podcast.

It's going to take you a little bit.

The first five or six episodes are only about an hour long, and then it's a grind, and it's a two-plus hour.

I mean, you turn it to 1.5x and just let it rip, but it turns into a grind because there's a lot of stuff.

It's almost like it starts very, very 10,000 feet and pulls back to 30,000 feet as it gives you all the little details, and I'm getting chills thinking about it, but there are some things that were said that I came home.

I would go out running, and I'd listen to it in the morning, and I'd come back, and I'd come over to my wife, and I'd give her a hug, and I would just tell her, like, hey, if I have ever made you feel like you are less than a human being, like you are less than a partner in this marriage, et cetera, et cetera, please let me know right now for the good of my own faith, for the good of my own testimony right now.

And, you know, by and large, she would say no.

Of course, she'd joke and say, yes, you're making me feel whatever, but by and large, it was not, but still, there's that thing inside of us that, as leaders, we want to go, oh, man, am I being a servant leader, or am I being a Mark Driscoll-adjacent leader?

Yeah.

To be honest, I'm one of those guys, just like Tom was talking about, I haven't listened to it.

Honestly, for me, it was a trigger.

Like, I got maybe halfway through the first episode, and I'm like, I don't need this in my life.

You know, I'm not Mark Driscoll, but I've lived that story.

I didn't work at Mars Hill, but that's been my past experience.

And so, for me, it just opened up the can of worms, and I was like, hey, you know what?

The rest of Christian subculture can enjoy this podcast.

Hopefully, it's helpful, but I don't need that experience in my life.

Now, I have heard, somebody told me this, and I don't, Rob Wagner and I, we were actually talking about it.

Oh, did you see that name drop, Rob Wagner, Casey Underground?

That was nice.

Do we need a bell every time it happens?

Ding!

Okay.

He's like, Jeff, it didn't have the answers.

Like, they never turned the corner and proposed solutions.

They just reported the problem.

I'm curious.

Would love y'all's take.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

We were having a conversation on, I do a podcast called The Weekday with my brother that we put out with our church.

And we were having a conversation about it on that podcast.

And we came to that same conclusion of, it never gave answers, but that's okay.

Because I think in the big scheme of things, history books don't give answers either.

But knowing history allows us to see what not to do in certain circumstances.

And so I think if we are able to form our own opinions and our own ways forward, that's better than having a company or a magazine or a brand dictate, this is how you need to do church going forward.

Yeah, I would agree with that, Andy.

I would agree with that very much.

I think the concern with trying to give answers with something like this is you'll inevitably give the wrong one.

And the world is built, Tom, you just mentioned the fact that we've got this, you know, we're getting paid to do church.

But, you know, most of us have to have a side gig to pay the bills.

And there's a real possibility that we gain more notoriety in our side gig than we do doing the stuff that we do.

Do we stop doing the kingdom building over here?

No.

We just, I think, I think in the influencer model, I don't think it's going away.

I think that's how, throughout human history, that has been how people interact with each other.

They put some people on pedestals.

It's not, it's not immoral.

I think it's amoral.

I think what becomes immoral is the person's heart and their inclination towards thinking they're all that in a bag of chips, you know.

And so I would love to see people intentionally hitch themselves to something less than on purpose so that they can raise the platform of that thing while their platform is being risen.

I mean, shoot, Rob is one of those guys.

Like, Rob used to be a megachurch pastor.

And what he's doing with microchurch, it's intentionally this way because we don't want to move into that space.

So even as his star is rising in evangelicalism, like, it's all pointing towards Jesus and what he can do through the lives of others.

And if you are going to have a platform, I would say that's what we should be doing.

Yeah, I think oftentimes we've, we, the church in 2021, at least here in the West, maybe 2022 is different.

But I think we've, we've lost sight of, of Christ.

We've, we're designing systems that are fully operational on their own and they're not even leaving.

They're not leaving room for the Holy Spirit there.

We're designing a system so that the Holy Spirit is no longer responsible, was no longer necessary.

And that, that can be a scary thing.

Um, I mean, if you really stop and think about it, yeah, it's powerful.

Yes, it's incredible.

Yes, it's impressive.

Uh, but I don't know that it's biblical.

And so that's some of the challenge and thank you Christianity today was Christianity today, right?

Yeah.

Christianity today for, for putting the energy into doing something like that.

I know that was a, that was a beast and it was controversial and either you loved it or you hated it.

And they had a lot of good press with it.

They had a lot of bad press, uh, with it, but, but hopefully once again,

you know, the history books will, will speak of what happened and hopefully that is on record,

uh, not against Mars Hill, but against all of us.

The, the plank in all of our eye is nothing compared to the spec, um, that's in, in one.

And so, you know, thanks for doing that.

Uh, maybe one day I'll listen to it when I'm in the middle of therapy and what we can use that

as the springboard to a much deeper conversation.

Hey, so, so let's get back into it.

That was maybe, that was maybe the success of 2021.

Um, uh, at least in, um, you know, podcast Christian realms.

Let's talk about one of the failures, the biggest swing and a miss of all 2021 podcasting clubhouse.

That's right.

Clubhouse, uh, Tom, actually, no, Chesley, Chesley.

Why don't, why don't you talk a little bit about this one?

Yeah.

So pod, uh, I love podcasting and I thought clubhouse was going to blow up and I was on there every other day.

And I'm like, dude, you got to check this out.

Uh, I love the idea of you had to know somebody to get there.

I think it's probably because of my nostalgia with Facebook and how that happened.

Uh, my little sister, uh, was the one that introduced me to it cause she did some, uh, attorney work for them.

And I'm like, this is amazing.

So I got to go on pretty early.

Um, and then it just didn't take off.

And probably because guys like me got too busy to be on there and then trying to search through relevant conversations, uh, for yourself.

And it's just like, I don't got the time, you know?

And some of these people's opinion, they probably shouldn't have one.

So it, me included, me included, you know, and, uh, I think clubhouse had a good idea, but I don't think it was helpful in the overall term of how do we use this as a church leader, um, other than building my own platform.

And then you had Twitter and Facebook and all these other guys coming, Hey, we can beat you.

And their platforms overtook clubhouse pretty quickly.

And I think, well, we're like, yes, this is the future.

And it wasn't, we, we didn't get that right.

Well, it was, it was the future, but they just, they didn't capitalize on it.

Like they couldn't figure out how to get the audience and just Twitter just jumped them and, and, and Facebook, you know, just rolled out their, their audio.

I like an audio conversation.

And I think it's a powerful tool, uh, but it just, they, they couldn't, they couldn't corner the market and they let some other people in.

And it, let's just be honest.

It took them forever to get Android on.

Like I'm why I don't, I don't know programming.

I don't know what's going on, but when you only have a sector of the industry and you're having to like exclude a major portion of mobile users, like, of course that just was the door wide open.

I have no idea what took so long, but I think it would be a completely different conversation if Android actually was able to, to come in.

Tom, you've had, uh, you've had some success, right?

With, with, uh, Twitter was Twitter spaces.

What does that look like for you now?

Well, I'm, I'm reevaluating some things on Twitter spaces.

Uh, but I, I will second the clubhouse clubhouse is a great idea.

I think just a simple fact that social networks already established networks like Twitter and now Facebook, um, are really building into it.

I think, you know, everyone, everyone I see on Twitter now jokes, Hey, remember when we did clubhouse and everyone just kind of laughs.

It's kind of funny to see that, but, um, I like with Twitter spaces, I think there's some real cool opportunities there again with, um, you could do a digital Bible study, a simple Bible study that you could do on there.

You could do a discussion group about stuff that's happening online and with online ministry.

Um, and the way Twitter is updating it pretty regularly.

And so, um, they've really kind of, they've figured out ways to schedule stuff.

They figured out ways that people can pay for some things as well on it.

So I think Twitter spaces provides a cool opportunity.

I think 2022 will be a really big year for Twitter spaces as more and more people start doing it.

I start seeing it now on Twitter at the very top.

I start seeing it more and more often on my, on my Twitter feed.

Has anybody tried the Facebook one yet?

It's in beta on my account.

I'm just curious.

I haven't had a chance to kick the tires on it.

Yeah, it's in beta.

It was really laggy when I opened it up.

Well, I mean, no, Meta's got a bunch of money.

I'm sure they'll, they'll throw something at it, you know, to get that cleaned up.

I was thinking it fits with the Twitter's framework.

So like Twitter's framework makes complete sense for, for what they're doing with Twitter spaces.

So I think it'll, I think it'll take off there because it's just aligned with who they are as a, as a brand and an organization.

So that's pretty cool.

Unlike Periscope.

Pour one out, man.

Pour one out for Periscope.

Rest in power.

All right.

Moving on.

Most likely to inspire Tom Pounder to kill someone.

This is, this is a fun one.

This one hits close to home.

Tom, you want to share a little bit about this one?

Well, it's not to kill someone.

It's to solve a crime or solve a mystery.

You know, I mean, I don't want to kill him.

Okay.

Listen, I'm really like going all the way back to serials, season one of Serial.

I really got hooked on the true crime podcast and these unsolved cases or, or questions, questionable cases.

So I'm really into that kind of stuff.

And one I discovered, it started in 2019, but it wrapped up, actually, no, it started in 2020, wrapped up last year.

Well, this year, 2021.

And it's called Your Own Backyard.

And it, it was a guy, just an average Joe.

He wasn't even a podcaster or anything like that, but he just started looking into the disappearance of Kristen Smart.

And Kristen Smart disappeared one night after a party in 1996, right around, that was my junior year in college.

And so she was kind of right around my age.

And I remember the attention it got nationwide.

She just disappeared.

And this guy just started digging into it a little bit more.

It was a kind of a cold case, even though they said it was never a cold case.

It really was.

They weren't really making any progress.

This guy solved it.

I mean, this guy solved the disappearance and he got, he got the police and everybody, they arrested two people who were, they were always known to have been the people.

Everyone always suspected them to be the people, but the, the police had a bunch of different missteps and, and errors and some prosecution stuff and everything like that.

But I mean, they were able to arrest the guys and the guys are on trial.

They'll be on trial this year, um, for her murder.

And, uh, it was fascinating.

It was a completely fascinating.

And so I just, I like when I, I binged all the, the episodes I missed and then I started listening to it regularly.

It was, it was awesome.

I have a confession to make though.

You were the guy.

No, I'm a serial killer though.

So I try to down a bowl of Reese's puffs once a week.

So yeah.

Waiting for the punchline.

I, I feel a lot smarter now.

Yeah.

Well, well done.

Tom, did you watch only murders?

No.

Okay.

Only murders in the building.

I think it was on.

Oh, oh yeah.

Yeah.

Oh no, no, no.

I did.

I did watch that.

I know it's not, I know it's not podcast, but Steve Martin, Martin Short.

Come on.

The two best comics ever.

Oh, they were, they were really funny.

They were really funny.

That was a great thing.

Do y'all, does anybody else like get into the true crime kind of podcast stuff?

I was big into serial season one, season two, maybe.

And, and I just, I like, I've tried to listen to some of this other stuff.

I can't, I can't get into it.

You know, my wife likes that stuff.

And then she has nightmares and she thinks somebody is going to come into the house and

break, break in.

I'm like, quit listening and watching.

Like, come on.

Yeah.

So I don't know if anybody else struggles with that in our house, like we do in our house,

but Hey, yeah, that's my wife too.

She could, she feels like she could be a private eye.

And I don't, I don't know that that's how that works.

But she'll listen to those and watch the whole thing.

And yeah, I think you got to go to school for that, darling.

All right.

Well, Tom, don't kill anybody.

Okay.

2022.

Like no, no serial killer, Tom, um, running around DC.

It'll take you an hour to get anywhere.

It takes an hour to get away.

Don't, don't, don't do it.

Okay.

I want to, I want to solve this series, not, not kill people.

The FBI is going to get ahold of this podcast and Tom's going on a watch list.

I guarantee it in 22.

Like it's, it's a thing.

All right.

Um, Hey, moving on.

Uh, here we go.

The smartest guy to ever appear on a TCD podcast that isn't named Ed Stetzer.

Uh, Garrett, this is you, right?

What, what, what are you thinking?

One of the podcasts that I really liked was, uh, one about video gamers.

So I'm a video gamer myself.

Um, I, I, I've got a community of guys that we, we play video games.

We sync up.

We, we probably have a group of 20 of us that, uh, are all in a text thread and we'll just

check out like, Hey, anyone on tonight?

And so like, I'm, I'm all in on the video game side and, and so is my wife.

Actually, my wife grew up playing legends of Zelda.

So like OG, like video games, like, like nerd, nerd video games.

And I make fun of her that she, she may be more nerdy than I am, but, uh, so we're a video

game family.

And so when I heard this podcast talking about how there is someone that decided to create

a church just for video gamers, like literally goes out into video game lobbies to church

people, to bring the gospel, to talk people through, to counsel, to do all these things

in lobbies, where if you've played video games, you know, church isn't usually what's talked

about in those lobbies.

Those lobbies are usually a lot more toxic.

And so like to, to hear about someone that wanted to step into that toxic realm and say,

you know what, I'm going to redeem this toxic realm and I'm going to use it to be able

to bring some good.

And that was really encouraging a lot.

A lot of times video gamers use video games as an outlet because it's not a space.

They don't feel like they have another comfortable space.

And so a lot of times video gamers are also introverts, meaning they're not naturally going

to bring up anything that they're either struggling with something they're going through.

And so hearing this just, it was, it was really encouraging because it was someone that was

reaching out to a, once again, a niche group of people, a, an intentional group of people.

This isn't going to reach everyone, but a group of people that probably often are forgotten

about or often are, aren't intentionally sought after because they're not going to seek someone.

They're not going to seek someone to say, Hey, I want to come to your church or, Hey, I'm

struggling with this when you talk to me about it.

But they'll talk in the video game lobby.

And so hearing about, uh, Jade's actions and what he does and, and, and part of, of what

like he does daily was really encouraging.

And it was exciting for me as a video gamer, as a follower of Christ, like it was, it was

pretty cool to hear how those two merged.

And so that was really, really exciting for me.

Yeah.

The metaverse and some of the ministry that's happening in that space, video games, virtual

reality.

I mean, that's, it's crazy to see the number of people right now that are being those, those

missionaries, uh, like, like Jade is, you know, I can think of, uh, pastor Susie's done,

done a lot in that space, uh, pastor Jay Poe, you know, and when you're in the metaverse,

you got cool nicknames, uh, you know, like I, I haven't, I haven't gotten to that, that

level yet, but, uh, I mean, guys that, that are literally, we just did a podcast conversation

with a guy named Stuart.

He's like 22.

And he's like, yeah, I go into, uh, VR chat, uh, which is like the cesspool of the metaverse.

It's, it's like AOL, uh, chat rooms in the nineties.

It's estimated that 40 to 50% of people are having, you know, virtual sex in VR chat,

um, at any given time in private rooms.

And he's going in there to, to do ministry, uh, literally walking into the, the, the metaverse

red room district and guys like, uh, Jade, who's, who's been championing this idea for years,

really setting that up.

And if you've ever, if you've ever met him, if you ever had a conversation, a dude's 20

something, I mean, I, I can never actually get him to tell me how old he is.

I think I would guesstimate probably around 26.

Yeah.

He just turned 26, 26.

Okay.

Yeah.

And it's, uh, like the, the, uh, the stuff that comes out of his mouth, like in, in the

way that he sees the world and his worldview and his perspective, it's, it's like, man,

dude, you're really, you see the world different than everybody else.

And that doesn't make him wrong.

That just makes him further ahead because the stuff that he's talking about in the world

that he's seeing is the world that we're going to, uh, we, the rest of us, we just haven't

figured it out yet.

Uh, and so love having him involved in that.

And yes, Garrett Silji did not understand the assignment.

He pulled a December podcast.

So we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll leave it in.

Uh, but, but at the heart of this, you know, I, I, well, frankly, you know, we got to say

Jate's name on the podcast.

I'm embarrassed.

I am embarrassed that we did not have Jade on the podcast in 21.

Like that, when, when that came to, to surface, uh, Garrett, I was, I was shocked.

I, you know, I've had him speak at a number of cohorts, worked with him in other areas.

And maybe that's the excuse.

I was just, you know, working with him in physical space and I never thought about doing

it on the podcast.

Uh, but Jate, if you're listening out there, thanks for like being the rock star, the humble

rock star that you are right now and keep.

Keep championing the things that you're doing.

Well, Hey, and that's going to get us to the last one.

And, and with the church digital podcast within 21, we've had a phenomenal guest list of people

coming along the, uh, the Dave Ferguson's, the Peyton Jones, Jared and Ann Roth, uh, uh,

Matt Engel, Jason Morris, Jeff hook, Rob Wagner, Ray DeArmas.

I kind of feel like we need to pour one out for Ray that he's not, wasn't able to join us

and so proud of what he's doing, uh, through the, um, medical technician.

And then I just actually, I spent, I spent like almost half an hour with him yesterday

on the phone, just kind of catching up with where he's in life.

Uh, the Greg Atkinson's, the pastor Susie's, Justin Murph, Matt Anderson, Mindy Quack,

Caliguire, Jay Cranda.

Like there's been a ridiculous amount of smart people, uh, a lot of wisdom that's come through

this podcast in 21, but, but for me, really like the, the, the award for the podcast that

still keeps me up at night, uh, that I still can't get this out of my head, uh, is Sam

George.

And it's episode one 20.

We'll include all these links in the show notes.

I know Chesley, uh, you know, he and I have talked about this Sam George conversation several

times, um, dude is a, is a missiologist, um, a, and he's from India and it has his, once

again, his worldview and, and the, the research and the understanding that he still understands

at a global level is ridiculous.

And it was funny.

I, I had a introductory conversation with him.

It was meant to be just like, Hey, how are you doing?

Would love to, you know, talk with you some more about some things at a global level.

And I just went on my zoom.

I like my, my, my, all my, all my zoom calls are automatically recorded.

Um, other than I know real reason, just kind of always just had it default to record.

And, um, I had basically an hour long conversation with this guy.

It was supposed to be 15 minutes.

And instead of like the introductory stuff, he just dove in and it was like, we were drinking

from the fire hydrant, uh, trying to understand, um, the potential of what digital can be in

the global realm.

And it was, was funny.

I, and the thing, this is the part that keeps me up at night.

Like I, I was, he's like, well, what do you do, Jeff?

And I started talking about my, my digital.

I started talking about digital only church planting.

Some of the things that we were doing, this is like early 21, maybe March or April.

And, um, and, and, and he says at some point later on, he's like, Hey Jeff, all that, all

that stuff that you're doing with digital, uh, it's too small.

You, you, you are a drop in the ocean of what digital can be.

You need to think much bigger.

And I, I, honest to God, I was like, wait, wait, what?

Like, no, no.

Do you not know everything that I'm, I'm like doing, but it's like, it's like, you're just,

you're, you're just scratching the surface of, of what can be.

And so honestly, for, for y'all out there that are listening, remember and, and realize

with me that the stuff that we are doing now is just scratching the surface of what digital

can be.

And, and seeing things like Zuckerberg's meta announcement, seeing things like, um, the

churches that are being successful in this digital and meta space, um, the movement of

what's happening globally, where people in Iran are literally being discipled.

And are bringing others to Christ via WhatsApp there.

We're doing evangelism training via WhatsApp because in Iran, digital's all they have, and

they're seeing borderline revival happening as a result.

We were, we, we haven't figured this out here in, in, in the West and in America.

And we, there's opportunities for us to learn so much in, in, in the months and years ahead.

Uh, and so, man, I just, I want that to be the challenge of, of 2022.

Like there's an opportunity for us to turn the corner, to learn something in this season.

Um, and we, that we haven't done before.

It takes a little bit of humility, takes a little bit of releasing control.

And those are two things that are very hard for the church.

Uh, if you can fall back on that Mars Hill conversation we had earlier, as evidence of

that.

Uh, but at the heart, um, we have to, in order to allow the spirit to have the ability to

control this thing and to write the ship.

So, yeah, and I know Chesley, you know, I, did you have any, any thoughts or comments on,

on, on that Sam George, you remember much from that?

Yeah, I do.

Uh, and you know, you, you like threw me out a couple of books that I like read in the next

two days because of it.

But, um, just thinking about his conversations, uh, about the third culture and how there's

a third culture way of getting ready to emerge has already started.

Uh, I think it's going to crest in the next 10 years.

Basically what that means is there are a lot of kids that have multicultural expressions that

they were born into.

And out of that, they relate to the world a very different way, uh, than, than those of

us that are first culture, which is just, I'm, I'm Anglo, I'm American, I'm a male like that.

That's what I know.

Um, I think if you look at the way the digital world has operated in the last 10 years, especially

with my kids, there's going to be this new, or, and it is already emerging, this new culture

emerging where you're going to see, um, cultural streams intersect in a way that they've never

intersected before.

Um, I, I can, I see like, uh, we're seeing an emergence of Asian cultures becoming more

predominant.

I think that's going to continue.

Um, obviously the last two years for America has brought out some, uh, some, some need for

racial reconciliation.

And we're going to continue to see that.

So that conversation in and of itself that Sam began to talk about was very helpful, but

the other piece of it is the Ecclesia and diaspora, uh, and how this is the first time in human

history where we can be gathered and scattered simultaneously.

Like the implications of that is huge.

I, I think when I look back at how Paul operated, I think Paul wouldn't have sat here and debated

theology.

He would have jumped in with everything he's got to go reach people that need Jesus that

would never step foot in an institution because he understood what it was to be the Ecclesia

in, in a space and enemy, enemy territory.

And he understood the mission that called us to go and make disciples of all nations.

And so I'm really excited about that.

I think Sam hit it right on the head there.

Yeah.

It's, it's that it's the, the here in America, like we really understand the Ecclesia.

We really are passionate about the gathering.

Don't, don't, uh, abandon the gathering Hebrews 10, 25, 10, somewhere around there.

You know, I just, I have that verse quoted at me.

It almost feels like weekly as a reason to not do digital.

But what's fascinating is the diaspora, the, the breaking of that gathering, the, the spreading

of it.

This is actually where God moves.

And this is the, this is the challenge of, of digital, um, is to, to break into spread.

Now diaspora in itself alone is not good.

The diaspora needs to break the Ecclesia in order to create new Ecclesias.

We need the separation of the current gathering to create more gatherings.

And through that break, we're allowing God to move through us as we're walking, literally

as we're going and in creating those new Ecclesia, those new environments around.

And so this is where I think digital really has an opportunity to fit in, to allow the

diasporatic movements digitally, to allow a recreation of, of new Ecclesias, digitally,

physically, and digitally.

And this may be a radical mindset, which is honestly, it's a lot of the stuff that we

want to work with on the digital church network, which is a whole other conversation for another

day.

But I will say this 2022, uh, is, is going to be an exciting year, uh, towards the digital

church.

Um, where we are leaning in through the church digital, we are exploring new things through

the digital church network.

And there's other stuff that, you know, I'm not even able to talk about right now.

It's just so impactful of, of what's happening on, on the road ahead.

So, Hey, listen, you're going to, you're going to see these guys through the church digital

through content.

You're going to, you're going to hear them on podcasts and YouTube and, and all sorts

of awesome stuff.

But we are excited, uh, to serve churches like yours and, and help your church understand

digital, understand fidgetal, understand multiplication, understand content, understand

influencer, understand production, understand the basics of this stuff from, from top to

bottom.

And I didn't even get to the mental health and some of the other things that, that we're

hitting with some people that, that aren't in this room.

So it's going to be an exciting season, but we're going to wrap some of this audio, some

of these contents, some of these, these channels have been heavily influential in our 21s.

And those of you who are out there, thank you for that.

By the way, we will include all the links in the show notes for all of these podcast episodes

or to subscribe to the podcast.

So if you heard something you'd like, go ahead and check that out, but we are going to wrap

it up.

Uh, 21 has been a, a phenomenal year.

Even in the midst of a global pandemic, we survived, we figured it out.

We did it.

And we made it to this point.

22 may be messy again.

Um, who knows what Omicron and I don't want to be pessimistic, but there's a lot of scary

things out there in the world today.

The consistent thing is Christ.

Um, and, and, and as much as sometimes even getting back to the conversation about Mars

Hill, even as we get distracted and we try to design systems that operate without the need

of God and without dependence on the Holy spirit, maybe just, maybe it's time for us to find ways

ways to be more flexible, to be more open, to be more transparent, uh, to be more teachable,

to be more shapeable, to allow us.

And that I hope is the challenge for you here in 22.

We are going, we're going to, we're going to open up, like we've said, we're going to do

a whole bunch of content aimed at nuances at helping churches like yours understand some

of the challenges of digital, whether it's from a, a content perspective, a discipleship

perspective, a, a church planting perspective from a leadership perspective, from a, even a

mental health perspective from, from gear to actually shaping one's soul in digital space

and, and, and discipling and prayer, properly pastoring people.

This is the heart of the church digital in 22 and beyond.

So for the crowd that is literally joining me in this call from, from Tom, from Andy, from

Chesley, from Garrett, I want to tell you, this is Jeff with the church digital.

Have a happy new year.

And we're going to see you on the flip side in 22.

Y'all have a good one.