EP201: Guest Engagement, Tom Pounder, & The TCD Sidekick Podcast Takeover

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

Through this podcast, learn about how God is using technology and innovation

in digital and digital environments around the world.

Our goal? To help churches like yours learn to be the church digitally.

Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple-making

that will revolutionize your church.

And now, your host, here's Jeff Reed.

All right, hey, we got episode 201 of the Church Digital Podcast.

Excited for the conversation that's coming up here.

Episode 200, we just talked about the Digital Church Network

and so excited to see everything that's happening and already happening

and coming about with the launch of the Digital Church Network

or maybe the pre-launch of the Digital Church Network.

Swing over to digitalchurch.network, the website, digitalchurch.network

for more information on that.

But here with 201, and really for a series here,

we're still in season two, talking with the crazies

because a lot of my friends are crazy, but that's funny.

But we really wanted to bring in and start the feature.

Hey, you know, we launched a podcast network,

TCD Podcast Network, and bringing on an ever-expanding list.

Even today as we're doing this recording,

I'm going to have a recording with another potential person

to join the podcast network.

And so today, we wanted to feature and give Tom Pounder

an opportunity to take over the TCD, the Church Digital Podcast.

So we're excited about Tom.

Tom, thanks for jumping on here, man.

Hey, as always, Jeff, thanks for having me on.

I'm really excited with what's happening with the Church Digital.

Yeah, lots of motion, lots of action,

lots of stuff happening right now that I can't even talk about yet.

And so there's going to be some really interesting things

coming in the weeks and the months to come.

So stay tuned.

We're really excited.

It's interesting.

We said here with season two,

hey, we just, we want to go with the goers.

We want to go with the people that are moving.

I'm done trying to convince people,

you know, the 10 reasons why they should be doing online small groups.

Let's actually run with the people that want to run.

And that philosophy shift has been awesome.

And it's been really exciting to see how God's been moving through it.

But here with the takeover,

we're going to feature some of the podcast creators,

the content creators that are part of the TCD Podcast Network.

And so we're pulling out an episode of Tom.

I want to talk here a little bit with Tom.

And then we're going to share one of the TCD Sidekick episodes

here along the way.

So Tom, let me, I mean, Tom, you've been doing podcasting longer than me.

To be honest, like I, it was funny just this week,

Tom sent me the first podcast episode that I was on with him.

It was probably the second interview I'd ever done.

And it was painful, is a word that comes to mind.

Like it just was really, and Tom's like, we should do this.

And I'm like, oh no, we'll put a link to it in the show notes

if you want to go relive that one.

But it was not airworthy just to say the least.

But hey man, how'd you get started into this?

Like what, what was the trigger for you?

Even with the stuff that you were doing with YM Sidekick

and you've been creating content for such a long time.

Like what was your heart?

What was kind of the trigger moment for you

when you were getting started in this so long ago?

Well, I like the process.

I like to think a lot.

I'm a, I'm an overthinker a lot.

And, you know, again, so I read a lot of books

and process a lot of things.

And I got started in blogging over 10, 11, 12 years ago, I think.

And the, the intention for me blogging was that I wanted to share my thoughts.

Like a lot of people who were sharing thoughts at that time were the big wigs,

the big name people.

The big, and I was in student ministry only at this time.

And so there were student ministers who were doing great work,

but I found that some of the things that they were talking about and doing

just didn't apply to my situation.

I was at a smaller church with a smaller congregation.

And so what I wanted to do was just share my thoughts on,

hey, what am I doing to reach the people in my community?

And so I started blogging and I love just writing.

I, and I continue to write.

That's why I'm so glad to be writing for the church digital.

I love just processing and sharing practical insights for people.

But then when podcasting started coming about,

I started thinking, okay, well,

maybe should I jump into this and see about this?

And, but then I also felt like, well, you know,

it's one of those things where nobody wants to hear from me.

I'm just an average Joe guy.

Why don't, why don't I just bring on people who are really doing it?

Ministry people who are in the trenches,

but quote unquote, like no neighbors.

They weren't the big wigs.

They were just regular people doing regular ministry

and doing it to the best of their ability.

And so I wanted to get people on there and having conversations with them.

And that's why I started the podcast.

And again, through Twitter,

I discovered you and all the great stuff that you were doing with the church

digital, and then your history with online ministry.

And that's why I wanted to have you on my podcast,

because, Alyssa, I feel like I knew you before you were the big man.

I mean, everybody knows Jeff Reed now.

I mean, we, we have our staff.

We talk about you like we're all best friends with you.

And I want to say, no, no, no, guys.

I know Jeff Reed.

I, I have, I know him.

And so, but it's just great.

I just like talking to people and hearing them share what God is doing in their ministries.

That's awesome.

So, uh, what, what a passion over the years of, of, of doing this and connecting.

One of the things that I love about Tom is he, his, his heart as literally, as long as I've known

him is, is, has been in helping others and in trying to help others do that ministry.

It's not, um, conceited or self-serving because it's something he's doing.

And it's, and it's not even sometimes with content creators, it's not even from a place

of, of ego or pride.

It's, it's really, it was, it was funny.

Um, one of our mutual friends on, uh, on, I think on Twitter, Justin Nava has said recently,

I hope to care for my clients the way that, that Tom Pounder cares for his audience.

And so like just the heart for how that, that he cares for it and loves, loves, you know,

the listening audience that's out there.

So if you've not connected, uh, with the TCD sidekick podcast, there's going to be a link

in the show notes to do that.

Hey, Tom, what, um, like what types of conversations, what, what are some of the

the conversations that you've got coming up in some of the weeks ahead?

What do you got scheduled?

Who's coming in?

Well, I got some conversations coming up with some online ministers and, um, some people who

are doing practical church communication stuff.

So, you know, I've got people like Sly King, who's been doing online ministry.

You know, I think he was one of the original guys, just like you, one of the first people

doing online ministry.

We talk about how strategy can kind of, kind of help you, uh, implement an effectiveness

on, on online ministry.

I got Mark McDonald, who's a great church communicator guy, uh, and Mark McDonald and

I are going to talk about SEO.

Uh, and we're, we're talking about why that's so important, uh, for your, uh, church and

for your website.

And I've got people on there.

I've got a new person, Tammy Burdick.

And she's going to be talking to me about, um, uh, about the effectiveness of why it's important

to do research, uh, researching your audience, getting to know your audience so you can communicate

effectively.

So I got those three people coming up and I'm really excited about that.

To be honest, I've, I've been tracking with Tammy over the past couple, maybe weeks, maybe

a month.

Uh, and so that's going to be an interesting conversation that with, with SEO, one of the,

uh, honestly, probably one of the most underutilized technical aspects, uh, within, uh, church tech

today.

So love that.

So, Hey Tom, with this podcast that, that we're coming up right now, this, this one episode,

what, what, what are you taking over the church digital to podcast here?

What, what are we listening to?

What's this conversation?

Well, I interviewed Jake McNamara and Jake is someone that I met on Twitter during the

COVID years.

And actually he talks about his story about how he wasn't an online minister before COVID

hit.

And that's very familiar with a lot of us.

Uh, and, um, and you know, Jake, and so, you know, we follow each other on Twitter and

we talk about creating that guest pathway from where you get them from the very first original,

um, caption on a stream or whatever it is that you do.

And then how do you move them along in the process, uh, to get them connected within your

church, whether it's an online connection or if they were able to actually come in person.

So we talk about that at length and it's a really good conversation.

I'm really excited.

Um, well, I was excited to share it and I'm excited to share it again with, uh, the trips

digital.

Yeah.

Love it.

So we're going to, we're going to dig in Jake, uh, you know, you're out there, uh, listening.

I'm sure love getting ready to feature you on this.

It's, it's been fun getting to know him over recent months as well.

I think I, I connected with him in Chicago at, uh, one of the regional expo, uh, events,

but, you know, looking, looking forward to, to sharing this conversation centered around,

uh, the guest engagement pathways and, and, and, and digging down to some old church, uh,

church online roots here, uh, getting back to really talking about how your church can

be more effective in, in, in utilizing online, uh, ministry.

So looking forward to this.

Hey, so we're, we're bringing in Tom Pounder, uh, and Jake McNamara here in a conversation,

uh, centered around, uh, guest engagement pathway.

All right.

Hey, Tom, thanks for this.

And, uh, we'll see y'all on the flip side.

Thanks everybody.

Here you go.

All right.

With me right now is Jake McNamara.

Jake, how are you?

Doing really well, Tom.

How are you doing?

I'm doing good.

I see you've got a, uh, well, if you're watching the video part of this, you'll see that Jake's

got a red flannel on.

Is this Christmas oriented for a particular reason?

Uh, not really.

Although we did just, you know, the day we're recording this, we recorded our online Christmas

services last night.

So I should say it's a tie into all that, but it's just a red flannel.

That's good.

I'm all in black.

And so that's, you know, kind of a different thing, but, um, yeah, that's awesome.

Um, so, uh, I've known you over the years, um, especially during COVID because of all of

us online ministers kind of getting together and chatting on places like Twitter and whatnot.

Um, but some of the, this is your first time on my podcast.

So I'm excited to have you on.

So some people may not know who you are.

So tell people, uh, where you're from, what ministry you serve in and how you got into that.

Yeah.

And I'll give you the short versions of all of that here.

So my name's Jake.

Um, I am the online campus pastor at the Compass Church.

Uh, it's a church in Naperville, Western suburb of Chicago.

Um, we're a four site, multi-site plus online now.

Um, so my background is I was a chemistry major in college, um, decided that I didn't want

to work in a lab my whole life.

So I fell into kind of some consulting roles and I did environmental work for, um, about

12 years, um, doing things that just, when I explain it, I see eyes glaze over really quickly.

Um, but I did that.

Um, but I was also working part-time at our church, um, in student ministry at that point

and time, um, just kind of felt a new ministry would be something that God was going to move

me into one way or another.

At some point, I just figured it'd be a last career.

Uh, and lo and behold, I got a call from our executive pastor at the time, um, asking if

I would be willing to go into our hub campus and run our guest services programs there.

Um, so all of the assimilation work and, um, you know, connecting people to the mission and

vision of our church.

Um, so I jumped in and said, yes.

Um, and then COVID hit.

So I feel like I did what any good guest service pastor would do at that point in time.

And I would go where the people are.

And that was online.

Um, just fell in love with it and really enjoyed it.

And our executive team here asked if I would not go back to my old role, um, and stay online.

So I just have said, absolutely.

Um, so I've been unofficially in the role since the beginning of COVID and officially

in the role, um, probably about 14 months or so at this point.

That's awesome.

Okay.

So there's so much I got to ask you about this one.

Yeah, totally.

The chemistry stuff is fascinating to me because this is what I remember about chemistry from

my experience in high school.

I had chemistry my 11th grade year and I, it was right after lunch.

It was in the basement of our high school.

So there was no windows or anything like that.

And I literally, I think I fell asleep every single day in that class.

And, uh, so chem sciences were never my strong suit on this.

So what, what fascinated you about chemistry?

Uh, so I was going to be a pharmacy major.

That was the whole plan going into college.

Um, so I did chemistry honestly, because my chemistry courses in high school were so hard,

um, that college chemistry courses for the first year and a half.

Half to two years were actually really easy for me.

Um, whatever infer from that, what you want, I suppose.

But, uh, and it was one of those when I decided pharmacy school, wasn't the path chemistry is

what I was next closest to graduating with the degree.

And so I stuck with it.

Um, so you fell asleep in the back of the class.

I, uh, I pulled out my phone and played Tetris and thought I got away with it until my teacher

made a comment in front of the whole class, like the last week.

That's awesome.

All right.

Well, then that, that also alarms me a little bit too, because when I was in high school,

we didn't have cell phones.

And so you, you were much younger than I am.

So great.

I'm, I'm talking to someone who's much younger than me now, but no, this is great.

Um, okay.

So I love this though, because I've seen a lot of student ministers go from student ministry

into online minister.

I saw a lot of that.

And again, I serve both roles, student and online.

Yeah.

At least at the time of this recording.

Um, but, but, uh, you moving from guest services to online, how, how was that transition

for you?

Complicated.

Um, but honestly, really good.

Um, I think linearly, linearly a lot of times and in processes and systems.

Um, and I think from that end, it's actually really helped trying to pull that into, um,

online, right?

Like I feel like I put my consultant hat back on in some ways, um, to try and get to the

point of how can we process as much information as we can quickly and turn it into something

usable.

Um, so organizing all of our teams and recruiting volunteers.

And honestly, just the process of, you know, that somebody's with you now, what do you do

with that?

Um, I think that's even more critical online just because of the fleeting nature of how

it can be that moment where you first connect with somebody, what are you going to do?

Yeah.

Dude, that's awesome.

Well, that kind of really leads us into what we're going to talk about today, because we're

going to talk about this online guest pathway.

Um, and I think you've are set up perfectly to talk about this because of your guest, um,

experiences, but then moving on to online.

So let me ask you this question as we get started.

Um, what, what was your online, um, what were you guys doing online at the, right at COVID?

Like, were you streaming your services?

Were you doing that or were you starting completely fresh?

Uh, we did a ton of experimenting.

So, uh, day one of COVID, um, we were all kind of on house orders.

So everybody was recording separate parts from their homes and we were getting somebody to

patch it all together.

Um, we moved to a live stream concept for a very short amount of time, um, but we actually

moved back to pre-record.

Um, and we're one of the few churches I feel like that have gone that route.

Um, so we are pre-recording all aspects of our service to be able to package them together,

produce them, um, in a way that fits with what people would expect to see on YouTube.

Um, it's helped keep our services a little bit shorter than you would see in person.

Um, and since we're not looking to necessarily connect somebody to a specific building, I think

that's actually been a really helpful thing for at least our church specifically.

Okay, so now I'm going to have to have you back on again for the podcast to talk about

your whole recording process, because I'm fascinated because this, because like you just said,

a lot of people were recording while live streaming was kind of down.

They weren't able to meet, they were recording, but then once they were able to meet back in

person, like our church, um, we were, uh, we were live streaming again.

Yeah.

And we were, and we continue to do that.

We do read broadcast, but it's basically our live stream.

I'm going to have you back on the podcast to talk about this because I'm fascinated with

this.

This is great.

And I'd love to hear the pros and the cons of what you've experienced over your times

doing this.

Um, so, okay.

So that's really cool of what you guys were doing.

Okay.

So now let's talk about into this, uh, guest pathway.

So there, do you stream your services the same time that the in-person service is going on,

or is that different times?

Different times.

So, um, we are like a lot of churches, but we're going to post on a lot of different platforms

just to catch as many different people as we can.

Um, our primary three that we focus the most on are going to be YouTube, um, church online

platform and Vimeo, um, just because Vimeo pulls over to our website.

Um, uh, we're, you know, we'll do Buzzsprout for audio only podcast versions of it.

We also put things on Facebook, but, um, those are more just kind of ancillary, aren't

necessarily the core of what we're trying to do, at least at the moment.

Um, but podcasting sounds like it'll have a little bit more of a future in our, in our

portfolio here coming up.

That's awesome.

Okay, good.

So how often will you, will you stream your services?

Like, will you just put it on YouTube at one time or do you have a, a premiere event?

Yeah.

So we premiere on YouTube at eight central and then we do church online platform at nine,

10 and 11 central.

Um, and because it's all prerecorded, we know it's all going to fit well within the time buffer

limits of actually running things on the hour like that.

Um, and then we'll leave everything on demand after that point.

So once the premiere on YouTube is done, people can access it whenever and however they'd

like.

Okay.

And so you do, you do not post throughout the week, um, on church online, not on church

online.

Nope.

Um, the only other things we'll do is just, um, truncate our message down to where it's

just the message only as opposed to the full service and make that a separate file, but

nothing really beyond that.

That's cool.

Okay, good.

That's really cool.

Okay.

So let's then talk about your Sunday experience on YouTube and then on your church online

platform.

How are you welcoming guests?

Like what, what kind of strategic stuff are you guys doing, uh, to do that?

Yeah.

And honestly, I'm hoping that none of this sounds like rocket science, right?

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But whether by hook or by crook, we want to know that people are there.

Um, so it's the things of calling things out at the beginning of the service, having somebody

intentionally on screen, talking to people specifically online.

Um, but really what we've started to try and brainstorm more outside of just interacting

with people specifically during those Sunday morning time slots is how can we, how can I

personally not feel like a pastor of views, but a pastor of people.

So what are we doing to try and get people's contact information?

Um, so for our church, as an example, um, it was very intentional and strategic where we

are going to ask people, whether it's your first time or 500th time to fill out a connection

card every single weekend, um, and cast different vision for how and why, or the different things

that you can do on there, like fill out a prayer request, um, or turn that into, Hey,

on your connection card, um, tell us your favorite type of Halloween candy.

Um, the reason we do that is we just can get a little bit more information, um, from somebody

by going that route because we can require a name and at least an email address.

And once I have someone's contact information, I can follow up.

Um, the same happens on church online, right?

If I see a username, that's not familiar to me, um, very regularly just send a private

message to them and let them know that we're glad they're here and ask if there's anything

I can pray for them about.

Um, it's not a magic bullet, but we definitely get some people to take us up on that offer

and that can start a conversation there as well.

Yeah.

I, I, I love this idea.

Um, and so how often do you, do you change your connection card regularly?

Uh, you know, again, like you said, the kind of cast different visions or do you just have

different options?

Like you, you mentioned the prayer, you mentioned the regular digital connection card.

Is there, are there other ways that you're trying to capture their information?

Yeah.

Um, so that's the main one that we're going to do every week.

Um, but we've also decided as a church that we wanted to try a handful of different things.

Um, and that's where I'd encourage anybody who's an online pastor, think of the context

of your church.

So as an example, we did a sermon series and like every good church, we used an acronym,

right?

Um, the acronym was Pearl.

It was, uh, an evangelistic strategy, you know, modeled by Jesus and the acronym ended

up spelling out Pearl.

So we said, Hey, anybody joining us, if you want us to mail you a physical, tangible reminder

of this sermon series to be praying for your friends, we would love to gift you a Pearl.

Just go onto our website, give us your name and your address.

Um, and we will ship one out to you free of cost and use it, you know, however you see

fit.

Um, we ran that for three weeks.

Um, we got 160 plus people to give us their information going that route.

30 of them were new.

18 of them were out of state.

Um, there was just a lot of really, really wonderful things by just thinking strategically

of how we could tie something into what we are already doing as a church, um, to find

out who has been with us online.

And it helped out a lot.

Yeah, that's awesome.

Okay.

So you talk about how you have that physical, like a, that facial connection of someone welcoming

everybody and whatnot.

Now, do you have chat hosts in your, your services?

I'm, I'm assuming you do.

Yes.

Yep.

What, what is that like in, you know, how do you train them?

To be looking for guests and new people coming to check out your service?

Being intentional.

The, the good news is when you have a team that are at typical services at typical times,

um, the more familiar they get to be.

And you start to remember the people that are chiming in on a regular basis.

Um, if you're serving once every two months, it's a little harder.

Um, we set ours up to serve at a minimum of once a month, um, up to every other week, just

kind of depending on schedule.

Um, and that's one of those, they just, they become familiar.

Um, and then on my end, like, what can I do to best equip them?

Um, and I, I give some cheat sheets, some Google docs that we'll send out, um, and specifically

a lot of times just on prayer requests.

I feel like at least in our church context, um, our chat hosts just don't know exactly how

to address those, um, with regularity.

So if I can provide them something ahead of time of, Hey, somebody's dealing with financial

hardship.

Here's a couple of verses that you can pray through with them while you're chatting with

them.

Yeah.

And I think it's so important.

And I love the church online platform.

We use that ourselves as well.

And because they have that chat host section in there where that if a chat host has questions,

like I'm always monitoring that, even if I'm not hosting a particular service, I'm always

monitoring that and can answer questions and kind of talk.

And it's good for our chat hosts to kind of talk together, you know, in a private manner.

Oh, without question.

And then you can always go back, I think what, up to a month from church online and pull the

transcripts and search for usernames that way too.

Yeah, that is great.

Okay.

So have you, I've encountered this a little bit.

Um, how, how do you deal with the people who are in your chat room, but have never officially

logged into your church online platform and you don't have, you, you don't capture their

email address or their phone number.

Is there anything that you've done to successfully do that?

No, unfortunately.

Right.

You know, like last Thanksgiving, it goes back to the regular things.

Like if somebody on screen is saying, Hey, everybody on chat right now, type in something

you're thankful for.

If you're not joining us in real time, we'll have a Facebook post on our, you know, compass

online Facebook group, right?

Go in there and just, what are you thankful for?

Chime in.

Let's start a thread going, um, those kinds of things.

So, um, nothing out of the ordinary, unfortunately, that just, you know, gets everybody to decide

that they want to chime in for the first time, but that's where it just comes down to being

consistent, right?

There, everybody wants the viral hit or the everybody coming at once, but there's something

to be said for the slow, steady slog of building an online ministry.

Yeah.

That's awesome.

Okay.

So you've captured their information then.

What's your next step in the process?

Yeah.

Um, so what I've found in our context is in our in-person services, we would always push

for something called discover the compass.

Um, think of it like a meet the staff kind of lunch, um, pre-membership kind of thing.

Uh, we found online really quickly that that doesn't work.

Uh, we had next to no success trying to get people into a zoom call to give a presentation

of any sort.

Um, so we shifted it online.

Um, and now I call it digital coffee.

So, uh, I get to sit down and drink coffee with anybody who wants, um, but the next step

or ideally the first step, um, everybody picks and choose their pathway in some regards is

I want to have a personal conversation with them.

So that could be a zoom call.

That could be, um, honestly getting together in person if somebody's more local and in the

area.

Um, but the, the unique thing that we try to do with it is, um, it's on our website.

People can go there and register, but I tell everybody that they can pick the topic and I

will just be along for the ride to talk about it with them.

Um, so if something's going to get me fired in my career, it's probably going to be topics

that I don't want to have to talk about, but it's addressing real needs.

And I think when people understand that us as a church want to meet them where they are

and talk about the things they are dealing with, they're going to be more open to share

more.

So because of that, I can keep a running list of the people I've talked to the conversations

we've had and mixed in with it.

If they say, oh yeah, if you ever have a online couple, small group, just let me know.

Well, if we get to the point where we've built one up and get a small group leader, I now have

a list of people that I can go back to, even if it's several months after the fact and say,

you were interested in this.

Are you still, do you want to have another conversation about it?

Just another, you know, keeping it more personalized touch points for us has had a lot better success

online than trying to cast the wide net in terms of classes like that.

Yeah, that's great.

Okay, so you're trying to then really personally engage with them right afterwards.

And are people floored by that?

Are they like, oh, we weren't expecting that.

We were just expecting an email with general information.

Yeah, but none of them have been unappreciative of it because they can get those general, you

know, the first time they show up, the general email of all of that.

But when they get the personalized touch point, they realize more quickly that we're just not

faces on screens.

We are people that truly want to connect with them.

And then we can have additional conversations.

And that digital coffee concept for me and for us as a church, it's truly been the best way that we've had to get people into

membership or serving roles, have conversations around baptism.

All of those sorts of things have stemmed more from that as opposed to announcements from a weekend service.

That's cool.

That's really, really cool.

I like that.

That personal touch that you're adding, because everyone, you know, I hear this a lot, is that online is so sterile.

You know, there's no real personality to it.

But then here you are, you're adding that personal touch to it.

So, okay, so you take that conversation and then what do you do next?

Do you then, based on what they're looking for, do you try to connect them to different staff people or volunteers?

Or what's your next step on that?

Yeah, 100%.

It's all of the above.

So it's going to be, if they're in the area, does it make sense to connect them to something at one of our physical campuses?

If they are not ready for that, whether it's COVID or they just don't live nearby because they don't have a great local church they've connected with,

what's it going to look like to get them plugged in online?

So I don't know if you've had the same experience, but for me, one of the fascinating things has been trying to create serving roles for people.

Things that maybe didn't exist at our, you know, physical brick and mortar campuses, but are still going to be beneficial for online.

So a team to follow up with guests every week, a team to be praying for, like just things that maybe shame on us as a church we didn't have a volunteer team for.

We can start to figure out what makes sense.

Are you a consultant?

Great.

Go check out Tom's church and let me know what they're doing and then get back to me and let's find out what ideas they have.

Now, that's fascinating.

That's great.

Yeah, I've definitely felt like with everyone being online, at least for that period of time, that it really did produce a lot of different serving opportunities that were not available to the church before.

And so I think, you know, whether it's camera people or lighting people or whatever, there's, you know, sound and music people.

There's lots of different roles that were not available before that are available now and that you can connect people to that, again, like where I live in Northern Virginia, right outside of D.C., there's a lot of computer people and a lot of tech people there.

Well, now, before COVID, they didn't really have a real big opportunity to serve.

Now there's more opportunity because of our reliance on tech and computer stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And we're finding the exact same thing, right?

I feel like a lot of times, initially, people got stuck of, it's chat host or nothing for serving.

And we learned really quickly, there's a lot of different avenues and angles that we could still use to get people connected and serve on a social media team that was just a person before, you know?

So it's a good problem to start wrestling through.

And it's been great ways to recruit people to use the gifts that they have.

Yeah.

I love it, man.

I love your ideas, your strategies, you walk them through that process.

And I agree with you.

I wanted to make a point of this earlier, but with you saying that with the chat hosts and with the regular attenders on those services, I would agree with you on that.

You know, people want consistency and we have the same chat hosts basically every single week at those certain services.

We do 8, 9, 30, and 11.

And I know some, I help out with the 8 o'clock service.

And I know some people in the chat room that I've never met in person.

Yeah.

But I feel like they share their lives with us.

And so, you know, for the people who say that real relationships can't happen online, I think is, you know, malarkey, you know, for lack of a better word.

I just think because there are people in there and I know who they are.

They share their lives with us and I share my life with them.

They get to know me a little bit.

And so, I just think it's completely fascinating, the opportunities that we have for relationships and connecting them, even though they may not be fully in our area.

Yep.

So.

Totally agree.

Yeah.

So, I think it's awesome.

Okay.

So, as we kind of wrap up here, any other comments you would encourage us with in regarding to an online pathway?

I would say put on your chemistry lab coat and don't be afraid to experiment, right?

Yeah.

I feel like I'm somebody who likes to have everything as planned out as possible before I press go and launch something.

And then in the world of online, if I'm waiting to do that every single time, the window is probably passed by the time I'm ready to actually go.

So, try something.

The worst that can happen is you revert and you get rid of whatever it is you're trying and then you try something else.

Eventually, you're going to find something that, at least for a season, is working for you in your church context to where your people are resonating with it.

And it's going to turn into real fruit.

You're going to meet real people, hear their real needs, and be able to minister to them in very real and unique ways.

Yeah.

I love your digital coffee idea.

That's something that I haven't done.

And I think it's a great idea.

So, I might have to steal that from you.

Do it, man.

Do it.

It's not trademarked.

Yeah.

That's a great idea.

And it's a great way to connect with people.

And I'm sure the response is great.

Because, again, ultimately, people want connection.

You know, they want to grow in their faith and they want to connect with real people.

And so, I think you being able to do that and making time for that, that's fantastic.

So, well, it has been fantastic.

Finally, again, we've known each other on Twitter for quite some time.

We've been in some groups together.

We've done, I think we've done like a clubhouse together before or Twitter spaces before.

Yeah.

It's been great chatting with you on social media, but now it's great to meet you in person.

So, as we kind of wrap up here, I would love other people to connect with you.

So, what's the best way for people to connect with you?

And please say Twitter.

Yeah, I mean, Twitter is where all the cool online pastors hang out, right?

So, honestly, Twitter and Instagram, you can find me at jakemack84 on either of those places.

I spend more time on Twitter than anywhere else.

You can also connect with me on Facebook.

Just look with me.

I've got a Cubs hat on backwards in the profile picture.

But no matter where you go, honestly, or my church website, thecompass.net, shoot me an email.

Whatever method works best for you outside of like Snapchat and TikTok has just not quite delved into that yet.

I'll interact with you where you're at.

Yeah, that's great.

Yeah, and I'm glad you said Twitter because Twitter is the best place to be.

It's a great platform and it doesn't get nearly the love that it should get.

It's the most social of social media.

Yeah, I agree.

Okay, and I'll include all your links in the show notes so that people can connect with you.

It's fantastic.

And again, we are going to have to have a follow-up discussion in a podcast about what you're doing with your broadcast.

So I can't wait to talk to you a little bit more about that.

100%.

Let's do it.

All right.

Hey, man, have a great day.

All right, you too.

Thanks, Tom.

Hey, Tom.

Awesome.

That was great.

Jake's so awesome.

And it's just taken such a fresh approach coming in.

I love him.

Almost taken the church by storm coming through with some of this new digital approach and a new mindset there.

But hey, so Tom, this is just one example of the TCD Sidekick podcast and kind of love where you're going with this.

If somebody wants to subscribe to the podcast or maybe if they watch some of the stuff that you're working on right now, how can people keep up with you?

Yeah, a lot of where people can keep up with me.

I mean, one is Twitter.

I'm always on Twitter.

So if you want to connect with me on Twitter, I love to engage with people.

My Twitter handle is at TAPounder.

But a lot of my stuff is just all on the church digital.

So, you know, you can get my blogs that I do.

I do a weekly blog and I do a weekly podcast, the TCD Sidekick podcast.

And I got those coming out on Wednesdays and Thursdays.

And I'm really excited about that.

And I've got, I have a whole draft board of just different things, different articles I'm working on right now.

And so there's a lot of stuff that we'll be touching on in regards to online ministry, very practical stuff.

And then again, I already talked about it at the very beginning about some interviews I got coming up on the Sidekick podcast.

So excited.

So just go to thechurch.digital.

And then, you know, we got the coaching and the cohorts coming up.

I mean, do we want to talk about that, Jeff?

Yeah, that's right.

Talk to them about that.

Yeah, I'm excited about that.

I mean, with all the stuff that's happening right now, Jeff has lined up a bunch of different coaches to work with Digital.

Work with Digital only and then work with Metaverse stuff.

And so if you're interested in learning any of that stuff and getting some coaching, one-on-one coaching, or actually being a part of a cohort, Jeff's got a bunch of different options for you on the Quip page at thechurch.digital.

So go there and get connected there because we think this is the time.

Right now is the time to really get invested in the digital ministry and online ministry, whether it's the Metaverse or whether it's a combination of digital and online.

There's lots of cool opportunities here.

Very good there.

Yeah.

So it's Equip.

The webpage is equip.thechurch.digital.

Or, of course, go to the website, thechurch.digital.

There's a massive link talking about Equip.

And so would love to maybe help you get connected with some of our online courses or even starting to swing into one of our coaching groups or cohorts that we've got run there through the equipping store at the Church Digital.

So, hey, this has been awesome.

Tom, I've loved this time.

I'm so looking forward to coming along to you, expanding in with TCD Sidekick.

By the way, while I've got you here awkwardly in front of a whole bunch of people, what does the A stand for?

I don't know that I've ever asked this.

T.A.

Pounder.

Oh, so, again, I wanted Tom Pounder, but that was taken at the time.

T is Thomas, my first name, and then A is Andrew.

Andrew.

Thomas Andrew.

You are perfectly named after two of the 12 disciples.

You are 18% of the disciples.

This is phenomenal.

I mean, except you're the doubting guy, so that might be a little awkward.

Yeah, and, you know, honestly, I think we've talked about this, but I'm not sure.

But, you know, Thomas is also another word for twin, and I'm actually a twin, so I'm an identical twin.

I don't think I knew.

Maybe I knew the twin.

We may have talked about it.

I mean, it doesn't come up in conversation a whole bunch, but he actually lives in North Carolina.

He was living in Jacksonville, St. Augustine for a little bit, and now they're back up in Charlotte, North Carolina.

So, like, the two of you get together for Christmas and, like, wig everybody out.

Is it identical, or is it just?

Yeah, we're identical, and it's funny because my girls will see pictures of him on social media, like, because of my nieces and nephews.

And so, they're like, Dad, this is you.

You guys, and I'm like, I know.

I mean, that's what they mean.

When you're identical, you really do look the same.

You really are identical.

So, that's awesome.

And this podcast has completely gone off the rails.

This is awesome.

Hey, check out Tom and the stuff that he's doing through The Church Digital.

And subscribe to TCD Sidekick podcast there.

But we'll have some links on the website as well.

T.A. Pounder on Twitter and a bunch of other spaces.

So, hey, but we're going to wrap.

So, for Tom, for Jake earlier, this is Jeff at The Church Digital.

Digital Church Network, Leadership Network, and a whole bunch of other stuff.

Thanks for jumping here on the podcast with us.

We'll see you next time on the show.

As we're doing another takeover next week, we'll have a surprise guest coming up here.

We'll announce that later.

But we'll see you then.

Talk to you later.