EP202: Staff Soulcare, Jon Pyle, and Better on the Inside Takeover

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

Through this podcast, learn about how God is using technology and innovation

in digital and digital environments around the world.

Our goal? To help churches like yours learn to be the church digitally.

Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple-making

that will revolutionize your church.

And now, your host, here's Jeff Reed.

All right, hey, welcome to episode 202 of the Church Digital Podcast.

Jeff here, founder of the Church Digital and Digital Church Network.

And really, before we even get into the podcast, I feel like I just really want to celebrate

some of the stuff that's happening here with the Digital Church Network.

We're going to be featuring that in future episodes and really season three

coming up right around the corners where we're going to be doing a deep dive,

talking about a lot of the philosophy and the mindset behind creating movements

centered around what's happening with the Digital Church Network.

And so I want to do this.

We're having a couple introductory meetings.

You know, I was talking, we're partnering with New Thing Network.

And New Thing is actually the vehicle that's really growing a lot of our movement pieces.

And so Dave Ferguson and the team over there, New Thing's going to be doing a talk with us

on February 21st.

And I just was texting right before I jumped on this.

Rob Wagner is going to be coming on in March and doing this.

So there's some incredible opportunities to learn about movement and talk about what that

can look like in digital space and meta space and try to figure out some next steps.

And so if you're interested in this, shameless plug here for Digital Church Network.

Not shameless.

Sign up.

I'm so, the guy's so excited.

It's my guest here.

He's already jumping in before I've introduced him.

John, calm down.

We'll get there in a second.

But no, listen, digitalchurch.network.

Go to the website, digitalchurch.network.

We'll put a link in the show notes.

But if you're interested, let's get you plugged in and let's start moving towards creating

some of these movements in digital and meta space.

Well, hey, that's nice.

And we're going to feature more of that in the weeks to come.

Keep checking out digitalchurch.network.

Hey, did I mention there's a website, digitalchurch.network.

Before anybody else leaves, hangs up on this podcast to go to digitalchurch.network, we

should probably actually go ahead and do the podcast.

So for the remainder of season two here for the month of February, we are featuring a takeover.

We talked about this, you know, where we, the Church Digital, we're launching a digital

church network and or excuse me.

Yeah, well, no, a podcast network.

Did I mention digitalchurch.network?

But we're launching a podcast network, a different type of network.

And as a result of that, we're really starting to feature a lot of other content creators

and helping to platform others that really have an interesting message to say when talking

about church online, digital church, meta church, digital discipleship, digital as a mission

field.

A lot of these things that we resonate here with Church Digital.

And last week was Tom Pounder with episode 201.

The TCD sidekick.

Tom's been with us and actually helped me birth the podcast network back in November of 21.

And today we're bringing in one of the new people we're kind of championing here in this

cause.

And that's John Pyle.

Hey, John, how are you doing?

Hello.

Sorry, I jumped in early.

I was just so excited.

You got me all fired up with new things.

Man, listen, if there's a there's a lot to be excited about here in digital church.

One of the values here with the network is, man, we want to go with the goers.

And so often.

And really, that's been a radical shift for me within the past six or eight months where

it's, you know, we're we're in the season.

And I don't know how many articles I can read in the different publications about how church

online is horrible.

It's the worst thing ever.

When are we?

Why can't we just meet physically?

And and then but then I'm seeing stories of life change in the ministry of what's what's

happening.

And I'm hearing about people that are being discipled in this space and people that are

moving past the consumerism approach of digital moving past maybe some more of a healthier

approach towards digital ministry than just the isolation that so many of our churches

stumbled into without realizing there's a better solution.

And and really, John, I mean, this is that's a side tangent.

But that's really why I was so excited about bringing you into this podcast network and and

helping to really platform and try to get more people to pay attention to some of the stuff

that you were saying.

We we jumped on and I don't even know if you know this part of the story, but some late

last year, October, November, I had this idea for for a podcast.

And the idea was centered around, man, digital pastors, they never get a break.

And especially coming into the Christmas season, it was like, hey, I want to do this episode

for digital pastors who never get vacation, never get downtime.

They're always on the clock.

Social media is always, always a thing.

And so there's never that nine to five with with a digital pastor.

So I had this idea for a podcast episode and I actually went to try to find somebody to be

the guest for that.

And John, I want confession hour here for the show.

You were not my first choice.

You were not my second choice.

You were not even my third choice.

You were number four.

But was what was fascinating was three other people were like, no, I don't want to have that

conversation.

You were the guy that was like, heck, yeah, I'm all about that.

Let's go.

And for me, that was and it was it was a great podcast.

We'll link to it in the show notes.

But it really stood out to me like your passion in this space and your understanding towards

the mental health and the stability and the soul care for us as pastors and ministers and

also the people that we're doing ministry with.

Well, man.

OK, as a mediocre athlete growing up, I know that when you get a chance off the bench, you've

got to be ready.

This is my Tom Brady moment, baby.

Bring me off the bench.

Eighth round draft pick.

I'm slinging it out there.

Well, but this this matters to me because, you know, first of all, I understand what you're

saying about all the articles about how digital church is terrible and we're awful people and

all that stuff.

Anyway, I know that that's not exactly what they're saying, but I'm like, y'all, the first

church planters were networked through non-physical means.

It's like, who do you think Paul's writing the letter to the people that he meets with

every week?

Come on.

Like the church is founded on like innovation.

Anyway, I could go off on that.

But so much of what I'm seeing from church world, right?

This is my 10th year working at City Church coming up on 11, actually coming up on 11 this

year and what I've seen in that church world is the burnout and the challenge of ministry

is a take.

It doesn't matter how good you are at it or how easy it is or how long you've been doing

it.

If you're pouring your life out, it eventually catches up to you if you're not being fed and

if you're not receiving at the same or a higher rate.

And so I just see people burnt out all the time and digital, it feels like it does it

faster, right?

That's what digital does.

Digital does everything faster and it burns you out faster because it can feel like you're

always on and there's always a problem to solve.

There's always a message.

There's always a text.

There's always a post.

There's all.

I mean, you could schedule out for three years your social media stuff.

Like there's always stuff that you can do and so I just, I feel like at some point, and

this is going back to almost pre-digital kind of stuff, like one of the clear things that

God spoke to me is my people are not expendable and every single person matters, every single

person.

And so that perspective kind of aligned with my job and doing digital stuff, but also the

pastoral care piece, you know, you don't always find those two linked together, but

I get excited about the mission of helping people be healthy.

That's just, I love it.

And, but I practice it myself.

I'm not the expert because I got this down.

I'm the guy that's going through it with you and going, Hey, come on.

I think I found something that works.

And then pointing out other people that do as well.

So that's been, that's been my focus.

So thank you for, I mean, having me on even as the fourth choice.

I love it.

Yeah.

You know, I don't, John, I don't know that I even had a lot of exposure to you at that

point.

I, I mean, I want to say it was, it was a tweet or a social media post or Facebook or

something that I saw this and it was like, huh, that's an interesting perspective.

Let me, you know, I just, it was, it was tweet.

It was Twitter.

Cause we were, I remember DMing now and, and, and working through that and kind of like asking

some casual questions and getting some really sharp responses.

And I'm like, man, there's, there's something to this guy and there's something to the ideas

and what he's talking about.

And, and what's interesting is, is even you were, you were probably the second.

I think there was one other conversation that I had had with somebody that was so that was

soul care minded, mental health, pastoral care type.

It was the, I'm blanking on the gentleman's name right now, but at Transformation Church,

Durham and Grace Church, the guy over there was, was a, was a soul care, was mental health,

was pastoral care, but was also digital pastor.

And that was a, you know, that was a really rare formula, but it seems like more and more

now coming into this, like go putting it in that, that soul care bucket, because there's

finally recognition that it can be so relational and putting a person that's heavily

relational in the chair to control that, um, is, is, is paying off.

Yeah.

It helps us move beyond this idea that I've heard you champion so much online ministry.

Isn't just streaming your service.

Digital isn't just streaming your service.

And so you have to have a relational piece to it.

So yes, if I did one thing, I taught John Pyle that, and he's, he's excited about it.

So that's, that's cool.

I will get off air.

I'll get John to do another dance and it'll be awesome.

Hey, uh, so tell me, I mean, we're turning, turn to the corner here.

A little bit where you're, you're, you're, you've launched this new podcast.

Now you, you've been doing it for a while, but ramping it up and, and, and with maybe

a stronger focus here through, through the church digital, but it's this idea of better

on the inside.

Tell us a little bit here about the podcast and maybe the heart behind it.

Yeah.

Well, the heart behind it is how to work for a church without losing your soul.

Right.

That's the tagline.

And that's pretty strong, but I think, I think we can all point to people, whether they actually

were on church staff or whether they volunteered heavily or just super involved where you lose

a piece of yourself.

You feel like you can lose your soul, the essence of your belief in your faith by serving the

church and the church can kind of eat that up.

And so in this season of deconstruction, in this season of, I mean, pandemic and a lot

of grief and loss, I think that is becoming even more poignant, even more of a thing that

people are wrestling with of how do we create cultures that are better on the inside?

And so what I mean is it felt like looking through my lens and even at my own church, the more

involved people got, sometimes the further away they got from Jesus.

And we weren't always making disciples of Jesus, but sometimes we're making disciples of the

church that could be chewed up and spit out by this large evangelical machine.

And I don't want that.

I want to create cultures that are better on the inside.

And it actually came from a conversation with a volunteer, actually staff member, previous

volunteer, previous attender at Church of the Highlands, who told me when I was there for

a conference, all skeptical and jaded, who was like, no, it's better on the inside.

And I was like, that's possible.

Like that cast the vision of like, that's possible.

It's not just like we do this work and we're kind of like, because if you talk to somebody

who's worked for a church for a while, they're some of the most jaded people in the world.

I mean, cynical, jaded, like you've seen it all.

And it's cool because we've seen amazing parts of our job.

But and when this woman told me that they're at Church of the Highlands, it was actually

better on the inside.

She was closer to Jesus from going from an attender to a volunteer to a staff member.

And I was like, whoa, that's a vision.

That's a lifelong vision to make it better on the inside.

Because when we make cultures better on the inside, we could be better on the inside.

So that's kind of the vision behind the podcast.

Confession Hour here at one point in the early 2000s, I actually ran a satire blog called

jadedchristian.com.

You didn't know that about me.

But that that's that's that's that's a that's a true piece.

And it was it was told and people out there are doing math trying to justify the story.

And if you want to reach out to me, I'll tell you the story.

It's fine.

But there's truth here.

Like, I, I was I was a prime example of that, where the the as a volunteer, not even as

a staff person, I would joke so and so owns my soul.

So and so has a piece of my soul.

My dog is coming to say hello in the podcast.

But like it was so much a part of of that and trying to to overcome that it did.

It turned to be jaded.

It turned to be bitter.

It really became something.

And, you know, it's it's funny years later, I think I'm better.

And sometimes I have a I have a hard conversation or I snap back.

It was funny the other day.

This is confession.

I mean, I always feel good when I talk with you.

It's like, hey, let's just be open.

It's just you and me.

And, you know, whoever many hundreds of people are listening to the podcast.

But the other day, the other day, my dad was talking about, you know, one of the churches

that I used to work with and and confession hour.

I got really short tempered with him.

I ended up apologizing after the fact and was like, hey, that that's that wasn't good.

But it was it was he pulled a thread unintentionally that I was like, oh, I am not as healed on

this as as I thought it was.

And then it was, man, I got to let's I got it.

I got to dig into that.

I got to do some work in that space to work through it.

And I reached out to a friend of mine and was like, hey, we need to we need to have a

conversation about this because I'm I'm a little more ripe on this than I than I thought.

And even still, you know, years later, it's I'm still kind of sensitive to that or more

sensitive than I thought.

And it's like it's so hard when you when you put your all into something and you're you're

told it's for the kingdom.

But then there's there's a different mindset or a different ideology or a different direction.

And you want the I mean, the organization needs the ability to have the freedom to pivot

or to shift or to do things.

And but you're you're giving all of it.

And so it's literally is a piece of your soul that's going with it.

And, you know, I don't know that that's biblical.

I don't know that that's not biblical.

It's just one of the really the challenges of how we today, this Western model of church

is really operating.

And I mean, honestly, there's a little bit of the digital church network in here because

there's other ways to do this.

But the larger part of this is that we've got 330,000 evangelical churches, and many of

those are having pastors that are leaving because they're frustrated, because they're

burned, because they're tired, because they're underpaid, because they're overtaxed and

overworked.

And and because in many ways, they've become this vehicle to God instead of empowering individuals

to get there, you know, on their own, it's become the professional Christian doling it

out instead of the equipper piece.

But I don't want to get into that.

I just I love this fact that we're we're addressing some of this and working it through.

Yeah, there's a digital pastor piece of this.

But there's also like as as a person, as as a pastor, as a volunteer, like there are ways

that we can do this where we can do ministry and also be better on the inside.

Man, so the podcast actually changed.

We started working on it of like something like the messy middle or something about like,

how does holiness look in everyday life?

That was the initial kind of conceit.

We recorded some episodes, we did some stuff, we were moving down that line.

And I got challenged by my producer, Andre Jennings of like, he just pushed me of like,

what's your audience?

Who are you really looking for?

And I'm like, man, if I could just have my church staff listen to a podcast, that would

be exciting.

And it's like, I want to give something to, you know, folks who are struggling, because

part of it is that you don't listen to the sermon because you've been critiquing the sermon

or videoing the sermon and you listen to it and you did this.

Like, when was the last time you went to church?

That's a question to challenge everyone's last time you really went to church.

And so providing some kind of content that people can engage with that actually like feeds

the soul is another good piece to it.

And man, when Jesus said, what does it profit a man to gain the world but lose his soul?

He's talking about stuff like this.

What does it profit you to gain so much in success, to gain so much in church attendance,

to gain so much in promotion and whatever that you might be experiencing in your thing,

but to lose the special part of you that's deeply connected to him and lose sight of it.

And it's toxic when we do that.

Awesome.

So here with the takeover, I mean, we're literally, we're now doing the intro and we're

going to play one of your episodes here from Better on the Inside.

Set up an intro here, explain, set it up.

What episode are we listening to?

Who are we going to be interviewing?

This one we're listening to Dr. Roberta Jones-Hall, or Birdie as we call her around City Church.

And she is a licensed minister and doctor.

She's a Christian psychiatrist.

And so not just a psychologist or a counselor, like a psychiatrist.

And so she digs deep on mental health and understands both aspects, the clinical aspect,

as well as the spiritual aspect.

And when Birdie and I talked kind of for the conceit of the initial podcast about holiness,

she just brought a ton of wisdom.

And she is a voice that can speak in terms that people can understand.

And so she just has an incredible way of speaking into life and making some of the things simple

around how to grow spiritually and be healthy spiritually.

And she also accepts that you can't just pray away depression, right?

There's a spiritual, physical, and mental aspect to all of these things.

And she really unites those three in one.

And so my conversation with Birdie was great.

She blew my mind on some points, talking about holiness, talking about the downside to a miracle.

Like, that sounds so wrong.

Like, may God strike me down.

But it's not.

It's a really good point.

And if nothing else, listen for the downside to a miracle because it's really good.

Hey, yeah, so stick around.

Like, I kind of freaked out.

He said it off air, talking about that.

Are we just doing, like, bad theology at this point?

No, it'll make sense.

Give her a chance.

It'll play out.

And honestly, I think she's spot on in this context with it anyway.

And so here we are.

We're bringing into the conversation John Pyle, host of Better on the Inside,

and Roberta Jones-Hall in a conversation about really addressing and finding the capacity for holiness.

This is the Better on the Inside takeover.

Okay, everybody, here you go.

What's up, y'all?

Welcome to Better on the Inside, a podcast about working for a church without losing your soul.

My name is John, and I'm your host and digital pastor.

We started this podcast because it can be really difficult to work for a church and follow Jesus.

It's so messy and complex.

You spend so much time caring for others and creating great experiences for your church

that it's easy for you to get lost in your personal spiritual journey to go on the back burner.

Or even worse, you can get jaded, cynical, and find yourself totally disconnected from Jesus

while still being asked to serve others.

My vision is to create a church culture that's better on the inside.

A church that's better on the inside means as you get more involved or more connected,

you don't just do more.

You actually get closer to Jesus, too.

I don't want you to become a cog in the machine.

You matter too much for that.

I want you to thrive in your own relationship with Jesus.

You are not expendable.

You are a masterpiece.

A better on the inside culture will leave us all better on the inside, too.

Hey, what's up, y'all?

I'm here with Dr. Roberta Jones-Hall.

I call her Bertie, right?

We're here.

Right, right.

And I'm so excited to talk to you because you have such a unique background, right?

Not only are you like a minister, right?

And you're trained on the Jesus side, you're also a doctor and a mental health professional

psychiatrist.

And so, in talking about the messy middle and people becoming more like Jesus and holiness

and also mental health, you have a totally unique perspective.

Well, you're very kind.

John, you're very kind.

The gracious answer is, thank you so much.

But I think it's also really important, too, to just recognize that before anything, we are

two human beings that love Jesus.

We love his followers.

We love the body of Christ.

And so, the whole goal of our conversation is to bless people, encourage people, lift them

up, and maybe put some clear road signs along this path we're all trying to walk.

Yeah.

Because sometimes, what we hear from pulpits, and I use the plural term, pulpits, because

there are so many messages and so much information coming from so many places, it's like, oh my

gosh, I don't even know which one to listen to.

Yeah.

It's an overload.

We are so overloaded.

You know, the book of Daniel says that in the last days, knowledge would be greatly increased.

And we are living in days when knowledge is just overwhelming.

It's incredible.

And so, one of the best things, when I got to first meet you, right, through Pastor Brent,

you shared just incredible wisdom.

And that's when I think of you, I think of that wisdom.

And so, I have a notebook that I took notes of.

Oh my goodness.

The conversation, the whole deal, right?

No pressure.

What did I say?

What did I say?

And so, differentiating between this vast knowledge and the depleting wisdom.

Just, it feels like there's so much less wisdom, and people are looking for, it's the road signs

that you talked about.

Where do I go?

Okay.

I know that there's this study, and there's that study, and there's this study, and that

there's this person that says this, and that person says that, and that person says that.

But what do I do?

You are, you're so right.

Now, I think, first of all, let's just talk about what's the difference between knowledge

and wisdom.

Yeah.

You know, knowledge is, hey, go look for it on the internet.

Now, you can find good knowledge, bad knowledge, real knowledge, fake knowledge, halfway in

between, half fake, half real knowledge.

Yeah.

Pick your knowledge, you know.

I mean, it's like gathering sand on the seashore.

Okay.

I mean, that's how much knowledge there is.

Wisdom is, what do I do with the information?

Yes.

And that's breathed by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is the one that makes Jesus real inside of us.

He reveals the Father.

He reveals Jesus.

He reveals the Word.

So, as we gather information, it's not just like, you know, kids gathering Easter eggs and

dumping them in the basket, you know.

It's, we want to gather that, but then we want to surrender not just our information, but

our hearts to who Jesus really is.

And let them, let Him show us, this is what you do with that information.

And this is what that information means to you specifically in your life.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Not just, oh, yeah, this is what you do, blanket, you know.

All right.

Everybody breathe on the count of three.

No, it's, He's so intimate and so personal.

Yeah.

He'll take that scripture or that word or that piece of information and He wants to apply

it to John.

He wants to apply it to Bertie.

Yeah.

You know, He's very, very individualized because of His care for us.

A very personal care.

Very, very personal.

And we don't, I think for some people, they've presented this version of religion where it's

very impersonal, where it's a big God way over there or way up there, right, that needs you

to, like, follow the rules or He's going to strike you down.

And so that individual care thing will be, I think that's going to be great for people

to hear, just to even think of a God that cares.

Well, you said it perfectly.

You said, people have a concept that religion is impersonal.

That's because it is.

Religion's always impersonal.

Yeah.

I mean, religion per se, I like to say, who drove Jesus totally bonkers when He was on

the face of the earth?

It was the religious crazies.

It was the scribes and Pharisees with their rules and lists.

Jesus liked to go hang out with prostitutes and fishermen.

And the lady at the well, you know, yeah, you know, who'd been married five times and is

shacking up with the next guy.

I mean, Jesus is relational.

Religion is rules-based.

Relationships are not rules-based.

Can't you just see how far it would go if you walk into your wife and pull out your list

of, here are my rules?

I don't think she's going to be happy with you.

Well, by the same token, if we think of really fully walking with Jesus, we cannot think in

terms of rules, regulations, and that type of rigidity.

Now, relationships based on respect, we find relational rules come into play.

You're not going to go hang out at the bar.

Why?

Not because you work on staff at City Church, because you have a relationship with Jesus.

You have this wonderful relationship with your wife.

You have this awesome relationship with your children.

And that relationship creates internal rules based on love.

Yeah.

You love and respect them.

Therefore, you make choices based on what builds your relationship.

Right.

Right?

Man, that's good.

Yes.

So, let's take that over to Jesus.

Yeah.

Now, you know, I think there are a whole lot of people in the world that don't realize it.

But if we really, you know, push the issue, they're going to say, I really respect the person

that Jesus is.

Yeah.

They may not believe he's the son of God.

They may not follow him.

They may not think of any of that.

But if you read the life of, I'll word it this way, just the historical Jesus.

Yeah.

If you're an honest human being, you will respect him.

It's so true.

Yeah.

I mean, you will respect him.

You may or may not like him.

You may or may not agree with him.

But you will respect him because of his integrity, compassion, et cetera.

Yeah.

So, out of love and respect, then, for Jesus, that begins to create what I like to call guardrails

on the freeway for my life, not out of, oh, my gosh, did I check off this box?

Oh, my goodness.

Yeah.

Oh, I hit my thumb with a hammer.

I said that word.

Oh, you know.

Right.

That's not holiness.

Mm.

That's not holiness.

Yes.

Okay, so I have to talk about the word holiness.

Yes.

Because we never use it in our society.

No, it's kind of a dirty word.

Well, it is a four-letter word.

Holy is a four-letter word.

So, you can take that where you want to.

Yeah.

Okay, so let's talk about God, right?

Right.

What does God say?

Because I looked it up before I came here to make sure I had my brain all in order.

So, what does Leviticus say?

It's like five times in Leviticus.

Be holy, for I am holy.

Yeah.

Right?

And then over in 1 Peter, it is written, be holy, for I am holy.

Yeah.

This is how we read it, out of Leviticus.

And if you've ever gotten bogged down in all the sacrifices in Leviticus.

Yes.

Yeah, that's when you start flipping pages and saying, do you mind if I skip this?

Yeah.

And it's not that it's not important, but it, too, depends on our heart.

That's true.

Where are we?

Absolutely.

Where is each person coming from?

Here's how we read it when we read this.

Are you ready?

Yeah.

Be holy, for I am holy.

Okay?

And that's how we see God.

You better be holy, because I'm holy.

And we just have all this anger and rigidity and fear.

And just plain mean.

Oh, yes.

You're just mean.

Yeah.

Okay?

Well, here's the reason we do that.

Are you ready?

I'm so ready.

We do that because if you watch us and we think we're right and the other guy's wrong,

how do we act?

Well, they just don't do it like I do it.

Yeah.

So what we've done is we've projected our humanity onto God, put our words, our concept,

our tone of voice in his mouth.

Yeah.

And had him speak it and thought it was him.

Right.

And said, be holy, for I am holy.

Well, God talks about that over in Psalms.

He said, you think I'm just like you.

But I'm not.

Yeah.

Now, so we think that's how God is saying it to us.

Right.

But let's go back to Genesis.

When God created, what did he do?

He spoke, right?

Yeah.

He said, let there be light.

And the Hebrew actually says, light be.

Mm.

Mm.

And light became.

It was.

It was.

Why?

Because he said so.

Now, so he creates by his word.

Yeah.

How about in John chapter one?

In the beginning was the?

Word.

Word.

And the word was with God.

And the word was God.

That's Jesus.

Jesus is the picture of the word of God.

Right?

So God isn't saying, be holy for I am holy.

What is God doing?

When he says, be holy, he creates in you the capacity to be holy.

He creates.

He speaks and creates in you the capacity to receive his holiness when you're born again.

That's incredible.

That's like, rewind.

Can we say it again?

Right?

Wow.

So how did Jesus heal the blind man?

Receive your sight.

He lay hands on him, but he did what?

He spoke.

Spoke.

Right?

How about the lame man?

Rise and walk.

He speaks.

Yeah.

Right?

Right.

Remember when he cursed the fig tree?

He spoke.

Yeah.

Now, I don't want to hear him send any curses my way.

Okay.

And for all of you who are feeling really, really guilty, calm down.

Okay.

So what does God do?

He says, be holy.

And then listen to what he says, for I am holy.

In other words, when you are born again, God becomes your very own father.

Wow.

Well, has anyone ever looked at a child and said, oh my goodness, you look just like your dad?

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

You look just like your mom.

Yeah.

Remember Amy Grant years and years ago had a song, she has her father's eyes?

Yeah.

Why?

Mm-hmm.

Well, because God is our very own father.

Yeah.

He is holy, he creates in us the capacity to receive himself.

Man.

And so the capacity, notice I didn't say to be good, check off all the boxes, make sure

we do everything perfectly, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah, yeah.

He creates in us the capacity to receive his holiness that lives inside of us.

And now I bet the question is, well, why don't I feel holy and why am I having such a hard

time?

Well, I mean, this is mind-blowing, though, to think of relational rules versus, and then

reinterpreting holiness, not as this checklist of perfection.

Well, not unless you want to be a Pharisee.

Which, you're never going to get it right.

They didn't get it right.

You can't.

Oh, wow.

And so, yeah, so now the question, you framed it perfectly.

Okay, so you have this capacity for holiness that God speaks and creates within us.

Right.

So why can't we do what we want to do?

And why do we do the things we don't want to do?

Oh, gee, it sounds just like Romans chapter 7, right?

Romans 7 · chapter mention

I try and I fall flat on my face.

It's why we all have flat noses because we fall.

Yeah, over, over.

Okay, so, but here's the amazing thing.

You already are holy in God's sight.

Okay, rewind.

Okay, just chew on that a little bit.

Yeah.

Because once we're born again, whose life is it inside of us?

It's not ours.

It's his.

Thank you.

It's his.

Yeah.

Well, is his life holy?

Yes, it is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So the holy life of God is already living in us.

Well, why do I have such a hard time walking it out?

Yeah.

Okay.

My favorite illustration of this is something that we don't really recognize very much here

because we are in a democracy.

Sure.

But in England, they have a monarchy.

That's right.

So let's pick on William and Kate and all of their children.

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah.

Prince George.

Now, when he was much younger, I saw this great picture of him.

I think he was maybe three in this cute little blue, obviously British jumpsuit with a little

white shirt and a little round collar.

Yeah.

No boy in America would be caught dead in this, but okay.

So with the little blue patent leather shoes and the whole business.

Do you know what they call him?

They call him Prince George.

He is royalty.

Yeah.

He doesn't even know where to show up to get his bath, but he is royalty and God forbid,

but if enough people died in the line, he would be king.

That's right.

Even though he's, what is he now?

Seven or eight or something, you know, I mean, he's a kid.

Yeah.

You're going to let your nine-year-old drive the car.

Oh, you're sure.

No, I don't even want to leave him in the car.

Thank you.

So what happens is that positionally, he is a prince.

Yeah.

He's royalty.

Essentially, and dare I say, maturity-wise, growth-wise, and may I use the word process-wise, he's very immature.

When we are born again, we have the life of God in us, and God sees us as holy in his sight.

Yeah.

Let's talk about the process of growing up.

That's slow.

That takes time.

It takes time.

And that's where people struggle.

Well, if I'm holy, why am I still having trouble with this?

Yeah.

Well, did you ride a bicycle the first time you got on there, or did you fall and scrape your knees and skin your nose?

Oh, goodness.

With my nine-year-old and a five-year-old, I have this conversation almost every single day.

You're not a grown-up yet, or you just have to keep trying.

Of course it's not easy.

Of course it's not this.

My five-year-old, this morning, he's in kindergarten, and he goes, I'm the only five-year-old in the class.

Everybody's six.

And he wants to be in it.

And so my wife said, okay, you're six.

And he goes, I'm not really six.

Right?

Oh, that's perfect.

Right.

Notice how on—oh, we could just stop right here and talk for the next three hours.

Your five-year-old honestly knows who he really is.

He just said, but I'm not really six.

Yeah.

You can tell him he's six all you want to, and he knows you're lying to him.

Yeah.

Hello.

Adults, we're too dumb to know that.

We feed each other all this garbage all the time.

The five-year-old says, but I'm not really six, Dad.

Yeah.

I'm not really six, Mom.

Well, okay, you know.

Well, isn't that exactly—now, what we're talking about is the difference between

position and process.

Yeah.

Position in the kingdom of God.

You know, John, if I drop dead right now, I would go to heaven.

Yeah.

Not because I did everything right today, checked off all the boxes today, or have made sure

that I was perfectly holy today.

Yeah.

Why?

Because I'm bought, and I'm covered in the blood of Jesus, and the life of God is inside

of me.

So if I drop dead right now, God sees me as as holy as I'm ever going to be.

Yeah.

In fact, the second I was born again in God's sight, I can't even be more holy than I was

at that moment, because I'm received based on who Jesus is, not based on what I've done.

Yeah.

Now, based on, though, who Jesus is, I let the process of his life continually work out in

me, and I learn to grow up, and I learn to cooperate with that holy life in me.

Yeah.

I learn to make choices based on my love and respect and relationship again with that holy

life in me, rather than on my coming up with a list of rules.

Right.

So the relational process is what we get frustrated with.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

And especially our friends who struggle with addiction.

Oh, my gosh.

Worked with addiction so much.

And they're like, okay, I'm in, I'm out.

I made it this far.

I fell off the wagon, and I'd say, no, no, no, no, you did not fall off the wagon.

What do you mean I didn't fall off the wagon?

Right.

And I would say, no, no, no, you took a calculated leap, and you jumped off the wagon.

It's easier to say we fell off the wagon, but the reality is we, and every person does it.

Yeah.

We all take calculated leaps where, and those of us who are not dealing with addiction,

this is how we try to make it spiritual.

Here's how we make it sound.

We go, I don't know what happened.

That's just not me.

And I said, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah, it is me.

Yeah.

Sorry.

Yeah, it is.

Yeah, it is.

You know, I really don't want you to think it's me.

That's why I say that.

But the reality is, yeah, that's the old man.

That's the old birdie that is trying to tell the holy life of God, I want to be Lord.

And the holy life of God, Jesus, inside of us is saying, you don't seem to understand.

Birdie told me I could be Lord.

Yeah.

And so it's that process of the old man learning to die and stay dead.

I have a friend who says, don't play dead, stay dead.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

That's good.

If that old man's dead, just stay dead.

Get in the ground, stay there, stay dead.

Okay, and let Jesus, the resurrected Jesus, live out his life.

But that's that push and pull, and it's the difference between position and process.

Oh, man, I love that so much.

Okay, does that help?

Yeah.

Oh, that's huge.

Well, because positionally, I think people, that's so exciting when you start to believe in Jesus and you go, yes, I got this.

And then there's the growing up.

There's the process.

That's not as exciting.

Driving on 1604.

Driving on 1604 will let you know how mature you really are.

Church tells you nothing.

Go drive on the freeway, and you will discover where your maturity level really is.

Yes.

Yeah.

That is such, and I think that's such a, that's relieving in a way, right?

Because part of what you talked about is dropping the supposed to, right?

Dropping the, it was so unlike me to do this.

Oh, no, no, it doesn't really like us.

Because you keep doing it, right?

And so, okay, and so that's really, that's really relieving.

Yes.

In a way, it's also going, oh, gosh, I have so much maturity to grow, and it requires humility.

Yes.

The humility to be able to go accurately assess where you are and own it, not because you want to look a certain way.

I struggle with that personally, right?

You want to look like everything's okay.

I want to look like, let's be honest, I want you to like me.

Yeah.

You know, I want Greg over here behind the cameras to like me.

Producer Greg.

You know?

I mean, think about, we want people to like us.

Well, the reality is, how about we learn first to recognize how much Jesus truly loves us.

Mm.

And then, based on that love, what if I actually begin to like me?

Yeah.

Wow.

Because of my relationship with him.

Yeah.

And then, I don't have to worry about, do you like me?

Because I'm going to be much more concerned on, how can I bless you?

Yeah.

So, it stops becoming about me, it begins to become about you.

Yeah.

And let me tell you, that really shifts in this holy thing.

Yeah.

Shifts us into a whole new realm of walk.

Right.

Because so many people, they're so worried about, oh my gosh, I've got to be holy, I've got to

scribes and Pharisees again.

You know, if I'm really walking with Jesus, there are times I choose to do something or maybe

not do something, not based on me at all, based on the love of God in me for you.

Yeah.

And that releases me from worrying about me.

And guess what?

Holiness then becomes the natural overflow of a life relationship because I'm not spending

all my time thinking about me.

Yeah.

Wow.

You get out of the way and you let the holiness take over.

Well, yeah.

Wow.

Yeah.

Because it's really, I mean, think about it.

God says, I am holy.

Right?

He says, I am holy.

Be holy.

I'm holy.

Be holy.

I am holy.

What else does it say about God?

It says, God is love.

So holiness and love.

They're right there.

Are intimately married.

Wow.

They're married.

And see, God, let's think about this.

God is the only person in the universe that is totally congruent within himself.

Right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

He is holy.

There's nothing inside the character of God that's fighting back and forth.

You know how we fight back and forth?

Oh, my gosh.

Always.

Say that one.

Yeah.

Calm down, Bertie.

Calm down.

Patience.

Patience.

Patience is a fruit of the spirit.

I don't know why you had to do that, but you did.

Okay.

So really, what do we do?

We have these inward conversations because we're incongruent with ourselves.

Where's that coming from?

The pull between position and process.

Yeah.

The more the process goes on, what does Paul say?

We're being changed from what?

Glory to glory by the spirit of the Lord.

Oh, wow.

Notice he didn't say you're being changed from one mud puddle to the next.

You're being changed from glory to glory by the spirit of the Lord.

So the process is to bring us to the position.

Man.

Which we'll never see this side of heaven.

Yeah.

But that's okay.

Right.

And even in heaven, don't you think we'll constantly be growing as we're amazed at who God is?

Yeah.

So the whole thing is to form us into the image of Jesus.

Yeah.

Well, what was Jesus doing all the time?

Yeah.

He was, number one, honoring the Father.

That's right.

Number two, walking in obedience.

And what was that obedience?

Right.

Loving everybody around him.

Everybody.

Healing the sick.

Raising the dead.

Driving religious people crazy.

Oh, yeah.

Love that one.

So the next time some religious, yeah, looks at you and tells you how terrible you are,

just think, oh, my gosh, I matched Jesus.

Yeah.

Wow.

Oh, Bernie, that is, like, just, it's so cool and it's so clear and it's so, it's so accessible.

And I, like, I'm so thankful for that.

And as, okay, so I want to make sure that I talk to you about this.

Okay.

As we, as we, I mean, we're in the middle of a pandemic.

I shouldn't say the middle, right?

We are so at the end.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

It's done.

It's done.

It depends on who's trying to manipulate numbers, but it's done.

Fair enough.

Right.

And so we've come through this, this thing, right, that we've been dealing with that has

kind of cut us off.

And so with this holiness and with everything we're experiencing in our environment, what role

does our mental health play in all of that?

Right.

And so how does that connect to the position and the process that's going on within?

Oh, gee, I'm so glad you asked, because over in Corinthians, it says, we have the mind of

Christ.

Wow.

So the same God that looked at you and said, be holy and created in you the capacity to

receive the holiness of God.

Yeah.

Think about it now.

What else did he create in you?

The capacity to have the mind, the mind of Christ.

I don't think anybody was more mentally healthy than Jesus.

Right.

Right.

So if you don't like what your mind's doing, why don't you ask him what his mind is doing?

Okay.

Wow.

Yeah.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, says the Lord, nor your ways like my ways.

What did he say?

My thoughts are higher than your thoughts.

My ways are higher than your ways.

Yeah.

So we can ask him, as Paul said in Romans, be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

Man.

So, well, how do you do that?

Yeah.

Okay.

Like, give me a list.

Step one.

Step two.

Step three.

Okay.

So I learned this from a friend.

I wish I could say it was original, but it's not.

If you don't like the thought you're having, have another thought.

Think about it.

Now, oh man, I just don't like how I'm thinking.

Well, replace it.

My car, I have a flat tire on my truck, and I do drive a truck.

Okay.

So I live on a ranch, have to have a truck.

I have a flat tire on my truck.

Well, I don't go out there day after day and bemoan the fact that I have a flat tire on my truck.

I change the tire.

Right.

Okay.

Or I call somebody that's bigger and stronger than I am.

But I don't moan over my flat tire.

I get a new tire.

Guess what?

Our old man thoughts are going to be down.

They're going to be sad.

They're going to be limited.

They're going to talk about how terrible I am.

They're going to be full of guilt.

They're going to sound just like the devil.

You're not good enough.

Nobody loves you.

Everybody hates you.

Go eat worms.

I mean, you know, we all know those thoughts, right?

Yeah.

Well, what happens if I change my thoughts like I change flat tires?

What if I take that thought and say, you know what?

I'm going to make a choice here.

Yeah.

It may take me a while to get you out of my head, but I am going to choose.

It's very intentional.

Yeah.

I just wish I thought differently.

Well, that's kind of like wishing you would lose weight or wishing you would start working

out on the rowing machine.

You got to go buy a rowing machine.

Then you have to make yourself get on the crazy thing.

Okay.

So what happens?

I have to take the tire off.

I have to purposefully take it over here.

Now, the good part about a tire is that it doesn't have a mind of its own, but our thoughts

do.

See, the tire doesn't get up and try to go get back on the track.

The tire just goes.

Okay.

It'll stay there.

Yeah.

Our thoughts, it's the old man thing.

Remember, the old man gets up and says, Jesus, I don't want you to be Lord.

Jesus says, no, you don't understand.

Bertie told me I am Lord here.

You have to move over.

Well, our thoughts, they have been entrenched in us for so long.

I call them old tapes.

They're old tapes.

I know we don't do tapes anymore, but, you know, see my gray?

So old tapes.

So what do we do?

I purposely look at this thought and I say, that thought doesn't sound like Jesus to me.

In fact, that thought pretty much sounds like the enemy to me.

That's right.

So that's not the thought Jesus would have.

What thought would Jesus have?

Ooh.

So if I want to know the thoughts of Jesus, where do you think I would look for them?

I mean, Scripture is a really good place.

Yeah, I think that might be the first.

And if you don't know what to look for, go get your red letter version and look for anything in red.

Well, because that's the story from people that saw it.

The eyewitnesses and the people recording his words and people going through going, this is what he said.

This is what he did.

Yes.

Okay.

So remember what he said to the woman that was taken in adultery, right?

They let all the scribes and Pharisees.

Oh, we're going to get her.

We're going to get her.

Jesus says, that's fine.

Whoever's without sin, throw the first rock.

Well, they all left.

Yeah.

And Jesus said, what?

Where are your accusers?

Nobody's condemning you.

And she said, no, sir.

He said, neither do I condemn you.

Now, listen to what he said.

Remember, he's speaking.

Yeah.

Go and what?

Sin no more.

Sin no more.

He spoke it, and it created in her the capacity to begin the process and the walk in the position.

Wow.

See?

So he said, go.

He wasn't shoving her away.

He's saying, go on your way.

Go live your life.

Yeah.

And as I speak, sin no more.

I'm creating in you the capacity to not fall into that trap.

Wow.

Did she fall into traps as she walked it out?

Duh.

She had to.

Hello.

Back and forth, up and down.

Sure.

But he created in her the capacity to keep growing.

Man.

Because divine life.

Yeah.

Is now in her.

Right.

Yeah.

Oh, well, and what you talk about is this idea that is so good for people.

Because as somebody who's dealt with mental health issues, depression, anxiety, that kind of thing.

Oh, yeah.

You talk about in such clear terms, which I appreciate.

Because sometimes it can get real, real, like, you can't grab onto it.

Nobody understands Dr. Eves.

Even doctors.

Yeah.

You know, they like to throw around all these big words.

There have been times I was in a hospital.

I heard one of my colleagues explain something to this patient.

Yeah.

And my patient was in the bed next to him.

Oh, don't hold it against me.

I'm retired now.

Nobody can hold this against me.

Okay.

So, my colleague left, and you could just feel the confusion in the room.

So, when I was through with my patient, I walked over to the other bed.

I said, do you still have questions?

And their eyes were like, you know, doctors walk in.

They go, do you have any questions?

Yeah.

Well, by the time they're through using all the doctor slang to explain stuff, you don't even know what your questions are.

Right.

And you have new, like, you got to go, I got to read a book to have a question.

What do you mean?

I don't know what to ask you.

Yeah.

Well, that's how the scribes and Pharisees were.

And that's how religion, oh, now I'm going to meddle.

Oh, good.

That's how religious people are today.

Yeah.

They've got an answer for everything that's got so much legal ease, legal religious ease in it.

Yeah.

That nobody knows what they're saying.

Right.

But Jesus was very simple.

Follow me.

Yeah.

I'll go, okay, I get it.

He kept it so simple.

Follow me.

Walk with me.

Go and sin no more.

Yeah.

I mean, he didn't say, go read the, you know, go read all 20-something chapters of Leviticus.

No.

No, but he created the capacity for her to do that.

Exactly.

And so that choice, the choice, which we have, we have the choice.

Yes, we do.

We have the choice to replace those thoughts.

Whether it's anxiety, depression, even if it's trauma, addiction.

We can replace the thoughts.

Now, here's the other thing that's so powerful.

It's not just about us replacing the thoughts.

It's about us working in a relationship with the living Jesus in our lives who is helping us replace the thoughts.

It's a relational replacement.

Can I say that again?

Say it.

That was good.

I've never said it like that before.

That's really good.

It's relational replacement.

It's not like, okay, I'm going to make a list of my 10 thoughts, and I'm going to replace them, and I'm going to work really hard on them.

It's relational.

It's very relational.

Yeah.

Jesus is helping me learn how does he think about this situation.

And the other thing, too, that we forget is, you know, just because my feelings are going crazy doesn't necessarily mean that's the truth.

That's so true.

Okay?

I mean, our feelings can go absolutely bonkers.

I can feel anxious about all kinds of stuff.

Yeah.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that my circumstances are actually anxiety-provoking.

Right.

I might just be feeling anxious inside.

Yeah.

Or my spiritual mom used to say it like this.

She used to say, you know, Satan is a skunk, and he really stinks things up.

Yeah.

But Jesus, you and Jesus together can run the skunk off.

But she would say, the skunk is long gone, but the stink is still there.

Oh, that's so true.

So the reality is, if I side with Jesus, and, you know, what does the word say?

Submit yourself to God.

Humble yourself to God.

Resist the devil, and he will what?

Flee.

Flee from you.

I've submitted myself to God.

I've humbled myself.

I've resisted the devil.

So what has happened to the devil?

The Bible says he's gone.

He's gone.

Well, then why is the stink still there?

Because he's a skunk.

Wow.

He's a skunk.

Yeah.

So will the old thoughts still try to come in?

Well, duh.

Yeah.

You think he's just going to say, okay, well, I won't fight anymore.

Yeah.

He's, how stupid do you have to be to fight God?

Yeah, it'd be pretty stupid.

Yeah.

So Satan has been this stupid, for an eternity, you think he's just going to walk away from

you?

Right.

No.

He's, but he's a skunk.

He's gone.

The stink is still there.

Plow through the stink.

Eventually, I had a husky one time that had a round with a skunk.

Yeah.

And you know, it takes a long time for that stink to go away.

Yes.

But eventually it did.

Yes.

Eventually, my husky, although he was black and white, eventually he did not smell like

a skunk.

Right.

Wow.

Okay.

And so this lingering stink, I think so much, and I think of people thinking about how they're

triggered.

I think about people reliving trauma through certain senses, right?

Right.

And so for a lot of us, I think, it seems like we're fighting the stink.

Yes.

And some people, you still have to make the decision, right?

You still have to make the decision to replace thoughts.

That's part of it.

You do have to choose to go down the process.

Right.

You have to choose the process.

But for some of us, we're fighting this lingering stink.

Oh, so let's talk about that.

Can we keep going?

Can we keep talking?

Come on.

This is gold.

Okay.

So let's talk about fighting, especially with trauma.

Let's talk about trauma.

Yeah.

Okay.

I am a trauma survivor.

So I have treated trauma, and I have been treated for trauma.

So I come at it from both angles.

So when, again, we're talking about position and process.

Yeah.

You are totally free in Jesus.

That is your position.

The process of walking through traumatic memory, listen, I've seen people, I've seen Jesus

just show up with people and zap.

And it's just.

And it's like, bang, they're done.

Okay.

Yeah.

Wow.

Praise the Lord.

That's right.

They got their miracle.

And it is a miracle.

Yes.

Okay.

And it's awesome.

And it does happen.

And it's like healing a broken leg.

I mean, it's like, it's like an arm coming back.

Like, that is a miracle.

Oh, yeah.

It's awesome.

And we all, because we're a microwave society, we all want the miracle.

We don't want the process.

Amen.

There's actually a downside to a miracle.

Okay.

And here's the downside to the miracle.

Is that I can't tell you how I got whole.

Wow.

Okay.

That's a word.

I can't tell you.

Ooh.

Okay.

That's a book.

The downside to a miracle.

I mean.

Yeah.

The downside to the miracle.

I can't tell you how.

Okay.

Remember the blind man over in John.

Yeah.

Right.

Jesus does what?

Now, listen.

You want Jesus to meet you?

I'm sorry.

He walks up to this guy.

He spits on the ground, makes mud, smears it on his face, and says, go wash.

Oh, yeah.

Thanks, Jesus.

Jesus blessed me.

And he spits on you.

I mean, you know, this is not religious.

Yeah.

Relational.

Yes.

Now, think about it.

It says that God, how did God make?

Man.

He formed him out of the dust of the ground.

What was Jesus doing?

Yeah.

He created eyeballs for him.

Wow.

Out of the mud.

Anyway, that's a side.

That's a side message.

Okay.

That's a bonus.

Yeah.

That's just a bonus message.

So what does he do?

He says, go wash.

Right?

And then the scribes and Pharisees are.

Now, never mind the guy can see.

He was born blind.

Religious.

Listen, I'm telling you, religious people are like this.

Yeah.

All they care about is what rule did you break?

Amen.

And they totally missed the amazing power of God.

Yeah.

I don't care that you're saying who did that to you and how did they do it.

And they kept asking him, how did it happen?

How did it happen?

And he couldn't tell me.

He said, I don't know.

He made mud.

He put it on my eyes.

He told me to go wash and I see.

And I've told you guys again and again and again.

Okay.

But he couldn't tell him how it happened.

Yeah.

That's the downside of the miracle.

Man.

Let me.

So let's talk about trauma memory.

Oh, yeah.

I've been in my own therapy.

Years and years ago, right?

I mean, you have to get yourself squared away before you can help anybody else get squared away.

And so when it comes to trauma and processing trauma, I didn't get the miracle.

I walked through, oh, yeah.

Yeah.

You know, those weekly, sometimes bi-weekly, sometimes tri-weekly.

Oh, my gosh.

I think I need to see my therapist again.

Yeah.

Sessions, you know.

What happens?

I can tell you the process.

I can tell you the good, the bad, the ugly.

I can tell you the times I didn't believe it was ever going to happen.

Yeah.

I can tell you the breakthrough times.

Right.

I can tell you how hard it was.

Yeah.

I can talk about loneliness.

I can talk about praying and feeling like I'm just beating my head against the wall.

Yes.

I can talk about, oh, my gosh, I remember when that happened.

And it was like light bulbs came on.

God, I can tell you the process because I've walked it.

Yeah.

So sometimes in the mercy of God, he walks us through the process so that we can have compassion

on people and walk with them through the process.

Oof.

That's beautiful.

See?

So God in his wisdom.

Yeah.

You know, we talk about mental health.

I want mental health.

Yeah.

I hope you're ready for a lifelong journey.

Yeah.

Because it's the process of growing up.

And so I think about my kids.

And one of the things that my nine-year-old is doing sometimes is like something bad will

happen.

And he'll say, you can't understand.

This happened.

You don't know what it's like to be nine.

And I mean, that's what he's not saying that, but he's saying that.

You can understand.

Because from his viewpoint.

I've been 38.

You were never nine.

Yeah.

I was dad.

I've always been dad.

Dad.

What's the matter with you?

But part of the beauty of the process is I go, I know what it's like because I experienced

it.

Yeah.

And so if I was nine and all of a sudden 38, it's a miracle.

But the downside to the miracle is that I could never walk him through it.

Exactly.

I could never, the compassion.

You said compassion.

I could never really have compassion because I can just go, I don't know.

It just happened.

Which is exactly why Jesus became human.

Exactly why Jesus became human.

Why do you have compassion on your son?

Oh, I've been a boy.

Yeah.

And there's another reason too.

He is your son.

Son.

Yeah.

So you've got a double thing going on.

Wow.

Not only have you been there, you in a very real sense gave him his life.

Wow.

God, right?

Mm-hmm.

Father God, you are born again.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Has given us life, John said, and this life is in his son.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Mm-hmm.

So as the father loves the son, and then Jesus turned around and says, the father has sent me, I am sending you.

Look at the, see the process here?

Jesus even said, Father, oh, it's over in John 17.

Let them know that you love them just like you love me.

Now, that'll blow you right out of the water, but our heavenly father loves you just like he loves Jesus.

So, but Jesus had to walk the process through.

Yeah.

Jesus was a carpenter.

Jesus had to learn to use a hammer.

Yes.

Do you think he ever hit his thumb?

He had to have.

Thank you.

Of course.

He was human and divine, but he didn't skip the process.

Exactly, but he probably never said what we said when we did our thumb.

Okay.

So, but that's, what is, he understands the process.

He had to keep his room clean.

Yeah.

And you think you had trouble with your siblings.

How would you like Jesus to be your big brother?

He never gets in trouble.

Really?

I mean, hey, let's all go do da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.

Let's fool mom and dad.

Jesus is the one that says, I don't think that's a good idea.

Oh, Jesus.

Oh, it's him again.

So, but what happened?

He knows the process.

He doesn't know it up here.

He lived the process.

You think we've been rejected?

I've never been put on a cross.

No.

I've never been flogged.

I mean, I've never been like hauling him out to the edge of town and start to push him over the cliff.

So, all of the process of the walk between position and that walk into maturity, Jesus did it.

So, when we go to him and we say, oh, I'm having trouble with these thoughts, he understands.

Yeah.

Because guess what?

He had to surrender his thoughts, too.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Hmm.

The difference is that we don't always surrender our thoughts.

Yeah.

But he perfectly surrendered his thoughts.

But that doesn't mean there wasn't a battle.

Right.

Why do you think he was out in the wilderness 40 days?

Yeah.

It was a 40-day battle.

Wow.

And every instant, he's having to choose.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

He's having to choose.

Having to choose.

Not my will.

We think of him praying in the garden.

Yeah.

Not my will.

I'm telling you, I believe that he was saying, not my will, from probably four or five years old.

Mm-hmm.

Okay?

Mm-hmm.

Because, because what was happening, something inside of him, right, knew who he was.

Even when you're four or five, you know, think about it.

I'm an artist.

My first degree was in graphic art and design.

I mean, just give me a crayon and let me create something.

Yeah.

But my second favorite thing were horses.

Mm-hmm.

I'm a country girl at heart.

Yeah.

Now, I had to get to my 50s before I could get out in the country and have my horses.

Right.

But it was who I was created to be.

Yeah.

So, we know way down deep inside, it's that bend that God has created John to be.

Mm-hmm.

So, nevertheless, Jesus had to learn to surrender his thoughts.

Yeah.

Which is why, when we're struggling with surrendering our thoughts, we have a safe place to go.

Wow.

He receives us.

Wow.

He receives us with compassion, just like you do with your son.

Yeah.

He really does understand.

He's not just saying it.

Yeah.

But it's even better.

Not only does he understand, he has the power to change you.

Mm-hmm.

See?

So, as much as you can share with your son.

Yeah.

And help him make better choices, you don't have power like God has.

No.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, think about it.

Father can help the son, but with Jesus, if we surrender, he has the power to change us.

Change our thoughts.

All right, Bertie.

I could talk to you forever.

Okay.

I know.

You know, the mind can only receive what the seat can endure.

So, yeah, they may have fallen asleep or something or fallen over.

I promise you, nobody has fallen asleep.

This is incredible, mind-blowing stuff.

I got to have you back.

I got to have you back and chat with you.

Happy.

Happy to come back and chat about anything you want to chat about if I know about it.

Yeah.

But if I don't know about it, I'll just tell you, I don't know.

You got the wrong person.

Okay.

So, here's what you don't want to have me come talk about.

Yeah.

Cooking.

Okay.

No cooking.

We can talk about horses.

Okay.

We can talk about trucks.

We can talk about hay bales.

We can talk about Jesus all day long.

We can talk about mental health.

I'm good.

Yeah.

No cooking.

Okay.

Okay.

No cooking and probably no technology.

All right.

No technology or cooking with Bertie.

There we go.

Oh, Dr. Roberta Jones-Hall, otherwise known as Bertie, thank you for being here.

Thank you guys for tuning in and being a part of it.

This was awesome.

Thank you for hanging out with us and joining the conversation.

Click the subscribe button wherever you're listening to this to get more better on the

inside.

Hey, I love y'all.

And we'll have you back soon.

Hey, yeah, John.

So, yeah, that was a great interview there with Roberta Jones-Hall.

Man, just some great perspectives there.

What was that takeaway for you kind of listening to it the second time around?

Yeah, the thing that stood out to me this time was her talking about holiness because

so often holiness becomes this like sacred, untouchable perfection.

And she really grounded it in real life.

And speaking the idea of Jesus, you know, God said, be holy as I am holy, as opposed to

an admonition from an angry parent or a God on high casting thunderbolts.

It's actually speaking the capacity for holiness in you, the capacity to be more like Jesus in

creation.

Be holy as I am holy.

And now that capacity is within us as believers in Jesus.

And it's like, OK, I can do this.

Jesus has given me the capacity to fill.

And so that was that was something I listened to this time.

Always the downside of a miracle always blows my mind.

But the holiness thing was what stood out to me this time.

Yeah.

I'm looking at be holy as I am holy as a capacity, as opposed to like a mandate or a challenge.

It's like you are you are built for this.

You are grounded in this.

You have permission.

I'm giving you permission to be holy as opposed to I have the mandate.

I'm smacking you with this ruler.

You know, do this or you fail and you suck at life.

Yeah.

I mean, what what what a great perspective.

What a healthy perspective for us is as we're looking at our relationship with God, Abba

Father and embracing that.

And what, John, honestly, my favorite part about this is it's just one of the many conversations

that you're having really addressing a completely different perspective, digital, how it works,

embracing the soul care idea among church staff in general and embracing a healthier mindset

as as we are literally pouring ourselves into others.

We ourselves need to be filled.

And so I love that challenge.

And thank you for doing that, man.

Hey, we're going to put information to subscribe to John's podcast better on the inside.

I will put it in the show notes and push it out via different ways.

But with love for you and the people out there, listen to some of the stuff he's talking about.

Share it, you know, even outside the digital ministry perspective, because it reaches a much larger church perspective.

And if our churches are healthy, our people will be healthy and our ministry will be healthy.

And as much as we try to bang the drum that we've got to work 60, 70, 80, 90 hours a week,

oftentimes it's the healthy approach that actually allows God to do what he's going to do in that space

instead of us feeling like we have to force something to happen.

You know, the best advice—oh, man.

Listen, this is the best advice I've been given in the past two years.

Angela Craig, mutual friend here through the Church Digital, and she's getting involved in the Digital Church Network.

She said—and actually, it was about the Digital Church Network, because I had cast her a while ago.

Hey, I'm thinking about doing this.

What do you think?

And she said to me, she said, Jeff, don't run in front of God.

And I was like, dang it, Angela, you're right.

And so I did.

I slowed it down.

I prayed about it.

And instead of being the guy at the end of the dock, jumping in the water when nobody's around me,

I was like, hey, let's go together towards this.

And God started opening some incredible doors that I don't think I could do myself.

And so a lot of that is in this mindset of doing things healthily and in control

and allowing God to work through you instead of working for God.

And so that would be the challenge.

Better on the inside.

John Powell.

John, thank you for jumping in here with this.

I appreciate it.

But, and man, Lily, any closing thoughts as we're landing the plane here?

No, man.

Jeff, thank you so much for letting me be a part of the network.

I love doing this.

And I'm so excited about the vision of what's going on.

It's not just the thing that we're doing just to do.

Like, there's really a mission and a vision behind this.

And so thank you for letting me be a part of that.

And I love the idea of the learning of, right, not getting ahead of God.

In fact, like the win, the win is the biggest problem when it comes to God.

That's because we're impatient because our lives are short.

He's eternal.

So the win that I'll write about that, Jeff, I'm going to write something about that.

So look for content from John on the church digital blog, subscribe to the podcast.

We'll put links to both those in the show notes.

And you definitely want to keep in touch and share the stuff that he's talking about as

he's trying to help all of us as staff embrace a healthier mindset.

And we're going to land the plane right there.

And so this, for John, better on the inside, this is Jeff with the Church Digital and Digital

Church Network.

I still geek out anytime I get to say that.

With the Digital Church Network, that's awesome.

We're going to land the plane.

Hey, hope you enjoyed the show.

We'll see you next time here at the Church Digital Podcast for the next Takeover.

I'll tell you who's coming up next week.

See you later.

Have a good one.

Bye.