EP203: Social Media, Holiness, and the Pocket Pulpit Podcast Takeover

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

Through this podcast, learn about how God is using technology and innovation

in digital and digital environments around the world.

Our goal? To help churches like yours learn to be the church digitally.

Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple-making

that will revolutionize your church.

And now, your host, here's Jeff Reed.

All right, we got episode 203 with the Church Digital Podcast.

Hey, it's Jeff here.

The Church Digital, of course, Digital Church Network.

I want to talk a little bit about that up front.

Man, we're excited.

We're going to be doing, here with Season 3 with the podcast,

we're going to be talking more about some of the incredible things,

these stories, the opportunities, and the network, the relationships

we're building here with Digital Church Network.

And everybody that's listening to this podcast, I want to give you a sneak peek.

I want to give you an invite.

We have soft-launched an online community.

Here's what I want you to do.

I want you to go to fam, F-A-M, dot, digitalchurch, dot, network.

Fam, F-A-M, dot, digitalchurch, dot, network.

We're doing an online community for people that are passionate about digital church,

digital ministry, digital discipleship.

You know, it's funny.

I talk with hundreds of people about this.

And so often it's, hey, Jeff, I was all alone.

Jeff, I didn't know anybody.

Everybody thought that I was crazy.

Everybody thought that I was nuts.

Everybody thought that I was weird because they didn't see ministry the way that I saw it.

And then the story usually goes like, and then I found you on Google,

or I found the podcast on Google, or I found some blog that you had written.

And all of a sudden things started to make sense.

And so, listen, we're creating a community.

We've already got a couple hundred people in there that are just jacked up and excited about digital ministry.

And so I want to invite you to come be a part of the fam,

of the family that we're putting together here with Digital Church Network.

And look for more of that coming in season three,

tipping off somewhere around March here in 22.

Commercial over, what is that like, you know, slash commercial.

We're done, and let's actually get into the podcast here.

Excited about this one.

We're in takeover season.

We had Tom Pounder did a takeover a couple weeks ago doing TCD Sidekick.

Last week we had John Pyle coming in and doing a mental health in his podcast,

Better on the Inside.

Side note, I confess some things on that podcast I have never said publicly before in any fashion anywhere.

So if you really want to know kind of like the scary stuff, you go, okay, yeah.

But no, seriously, there's really some stuff that I talked about in there I've never said before.

And so it's kind of wigging me out.

You won't get the inside.

Go back to 202.

But I'm excited here about 203 because we're getting in here with some new friends.

So we're talking with Hector Martinez and Sarah Kinzer who do the Pocket Pulpit Podcast.

Hey, I said it all in a row without, there's a lot of Ps in that sentence, Pocket Pulpit Podcast.

And excited for them to join the Church Digital Podcast Network and to just become the family of what we're building here with the Church Digital.

So Hector, Sarah, thank you for coming on and excited to have you.

Part of the family here of what's going on.

So, hey, you know, tell me just a little bit.

I tell you what, Hector, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Let's start with you.

Tell us a little bit about yourself and kind of what's your ministry story.

Yeah, so I'm originally from Texas, was studying to be a youth pastor, and life circumstances caused me to have to leave school.

And I met the pastor that I now serve with down in Texas on a return visit.

So I've been doing youth ministry in Seattle, Washington for about seven years.

And the pandemic kind of makes a gray area, but the pandemic really caused me to kind of rethink what did I want ministry to look like?

And, you know, doors that were closing on youth ministry, but opening in the online world, both my own community growing and then being able to watch this thing grow.

And so I've really pressed into the idea of online ministry and digital discipleship.

I love it.

And, you know, there were so many opportunities in this COVID season and people shifting.

It's funny to see people shifting towards digital ministry and embracing more of that side.

It's funny to see churches that are shifting away from digital ministry and even feeling that tension and have had so many conversations with pastors and ministry leaders who are just kind of feeling like they're being stuck and being pulled in different directions.

And so love that.

Hector, where do you live?

You said, but.

Oh, I'm in Seattle, Washington.

Seattle now with that.

And so, Sarah, let's tell us a little bit about your story.

What does this look like?

How did you get started in all this?

So I'm on the other side of the country.

I'm in Virginia.

And so I've actually never sat in the same room with Hector.

So when we say like online relationships are real deal, like we absolutely believe that.

Well, before I met Hector and before I was doing online stuff, I was working on a book that I wrote.

And everything in my heart, just that I was hearing from God when I pray about, he'd say that the next thing I have for you is on the other side of this book.

And so in 2019, I published the book and was then like, okay, let me like did it.

What's next?

And I had been sitting down.

So this is the end of 2019, right before 2020 with people that I worked with and just coming up with idea after idea after idea with a digital discipleship stuff.

And just kept hearing, you know, like this is, this is great.

It's cool.

It's, it's seems needed, but I don't think it's now.

And I would say, I don't know what it is, but there's something in me that says the next thing we have to lean into is online.

Like digital is coming.

And, um, in January of 2020, like I had just some really big picture vision as to what God had next for me.

And then, um, you know, like everybody, as everybody's story goes right now, and then COVID happened.

And, um, so as COVID happened, I said, okay, well, what can I do?

Just, you gave me this huge picture and I don't know how to get there.

So what can I do?

And so, um, God just gave me small, simple things that I just started trying on the internet, trying online, um, little experiments here and there.

And, um, a friend introduced me to Twitter.

I got on, on Twitter, met Hector, and we started having conversations and things just took off from there.

Yeah, that's, that's great.

You guys are literally on opposite sides of, of the country, you know, separated by four different time zones.

And, uh, and, and, and I found a friendship, a ministry partnership and really rallying around, um, the, you know, social media, digital discipleship and, and, and the importance of that.

Sarah, what was the name of the book you didn't mention?

Well, it's called Abide the Day-to-Day Demystification of Holiness.

Interesting.

So we'll throw a link in the, in the show notes.

You can dive into that.

I love my book.

You know, it's not, it's, I don't think it's ever going to be a bestseller, but I love my book.

You write the books as a journey for yourself.

Like that, that's how you grow.

That's how you develop.

And, and if people want to buy it, that's awesome.

But more often than not, it's, man, I had an opportunity to grow personally through this.

And so I've just, I've heard that, that time and time again, but we'll, we'll throw the link in there and you can, you can grow with Sarah's journey as, as, as, as she's exploring and demystifying holiness.

So that's, that's great.

So, but what, what, what I love about their, their, their podcast in this, this partnership is really the, the, the, the practically simple approach of, of what they're, they're bringing into this.

Like what, and this, this is going to sound weird, but you're not, you're not having a lot of, like, you know, Tom's been doing digital ministry since like, I think he was one of the forerunners.

I, you know, I've, I've been doing this for a long time myself and, and, and so oftentimes, you know, I use, use big words, big ideas, big concepts, and I'm already 10 steps behind everybody else.

But very few people, and they're talking social media about different things, but honing into, man, how can we use this for discipleship?

How do we use this for, for church purposes, beyond communication, beyond, I was working with an organization eventually, and it was like, you're, you're doing so busy promoting events.

It actually, you're, the voice that you're saying doesn't sound like you actually care about people.

You're just trying to drive them to the next event.

You're not actually taking the time to talk with them, engage with them, and listen to them in the social media.

And, and how many of our churches are guilty of that same approach?

And so, like, I just have loved getting to know Hector and Sarah and, and digging into Pocket Pulpit podcast once again, second time I've said in a row correctly without screwing it up.

So I am excited two in a row here.

Let me ask you all, why, why, why digital ministry?

So Hector, you were doing student ministry, you pivoted in, in, in COVID.

Sarah, you wrote the book right before, you know, and there, there was a pivot around this, but the book itself wasn't, it doesn't sound like it was digital ministry.

You're going, both of you are going in two different directions.

How did you end up here?

Sarah, go first.

Tell us, how did you end up here?

Well, I started doing those little experiments.

You know, I started asking people, you know, can I pray for you?

And I thought, I don't think anybody, anybody will, you know, who would want somebody to pray for them, tell them what's wrong with them.

But from the first week, people were very vulnerable.

And I began to see just how you couldn't buy that kind of vulnerability in person.

It would take years for someone to trust you with the kind of things that people would bring to me for me, just saying on Facebook and Instagram, can I pray with you?

And when I realized how easy it was for somebody who didn't have, I didn't have a degree in marketing or digital anything.

And I was just willing, I was just willing to do whatever God asked me to do.

And it was so easy.

And I want people to know, I want people to know that this isn't something you need a master's for.

This is something you just need to be willing to do what God asks us to do.

And that's just to be the church where you are.

And we're online.

That's so cool and so necessary to kind of look at these tools as community and a valid community, a helpful community, a restoring community.

Yeah, there's bad, but there's good beyond the bad.

And the good, by the way, can help even at a spiritual level, which gets me into the show here.

Talk to me a little bit about what's the theme, what's the heart behind Pocket Pulpit Podcast?

Yeah, I think, you know, one of the things, so the tagline of the show is, you know, the Pocket Pulpit Podcast is an exploration in social media ministry.

And so the idea is that we're not experts.

You know, this is a growing, you know, as you said, like this has been an ongoing thing for decades.

And the rapid rise of social media and the amount of people that have joined it, the way that we interact online changes day to day, week to week.

But really, it's an exploration with different people where when we see people who are using social media in a way that is, as Sarah was explaining, like creating safe places, such as our friend Kirk, who every week is asking, how can I pray for you?

And following up and building relationships to somebody like Doug that we're going to feature here, you know, who is trying to help think about, like, how do you be a person of peace in digital spaces?

And how do you combat the way that, sure, the way that the algorithm, you know, the fallout with what an algorithm can do?

How do you combat that?

And how do you think about it?

To somebody like Dr. Beth Allison Barr, who is really seeing the benefit of social media to give women a platform and women a voice.

And you don't, it's removing the barriers to impact and influence, not just your local neighborhood, but really in certain spaces of the world, you know, globally.

Awesome. Well, I can't wait to hear it.

Again, we'll talk about it afterwards.

I've already just, even hearing that, I'm like, oh my gosh, I want to totally unpack that.

But we got Pocket Pulpit Podcast.

Hector Martinez, Sarah Kinzer here.

Check out the show notes.

There's opportunities to subscribe into that.

Thechurch.digital slash podcast.

There's links there to subscribe to Pocket Pulpit Podcast, as well as the other shows that are on the network and would love to get connected here.

So we got the Pocket Pulpit Podcast.

Hector and Sarah coming in here with the episode with Doug Bursch.

Social media posting piece in the takeover here of the Church Digital Podcast.

Okay, everybody.

Here you go.

The incarnation is Christ comes in the flesh, right?

It's not that God said, hey, everybody, I got a New Testament, and he threw it down from heaven, just like, here you go.

The New Testament came out of embodied ministry, that Christ, God in the flesh, dwelt amongst us.

And so the internet, we are disembodied.

We don't see each other.

We're not in the room.

And it has a tendency to dehumanize us from these personal interactions where we try to find out who this person is, what their heart is.

How can I connect with them?

What is God saying to them and working through them?

That takes more energy in this platform.

It just does.

Because we're not in the room.

People become ideologies.

They become characters.

We just see them as, you know, points of an argument, not as a human being made in the image of God.

Well, hey, welcome.

This is, what do we even call this again?

The Pocket Pulpit Podcast.

I'm Hector.

And today we have, obviously, my co-host, Sarah.

That's me.

And today we also have our guest, Doug Bursch.

And we're just looking forward to getting to chat with him and talk about some of his areas of expertise.

And, yeah, just learn and chat.

So, Doug, can you just introduce yourself?

Just tell us who you are.

I thought you were going to have me say Pocket Pulpit Podcast three times fast.

And I don't know if I can do that.

But a little bit about me.

I'm going to give a 30-minute introduction.

No, I am.

What am I?

I'm getting older.

I got four kids.

My third kid is graduating from high school.

I just did.

That's crazy.

Lovely wife that I've been married to for a while.

And she'll tell me how long.

I don't quite remember, but it's been a while.

And I'm a pastor.

And I also do other stuff.

Writing, teaching.

I just kind of call it evangelist stuff.

Stuff that doesn't fit within the four walls of the church.

And that's kind of me.

My heart is a heart for reconciliation.

To communicate in a way where we bring people closer together and closer to God.

So that's kind of my mission, whatever I'm doing.

Awesome.

So you are...

I was thinking about this before we talked.

And there is so many...

You're on the Pocket Pulpit.

But also, you're a pastor.

And you're a podcaster.

And you're a parent.

And you're a partner.

Which was...

I mean, I heard...

I listened to your podcast episode where you talked about your wife.

And it was very much a partner relationship.

Yeah, very much.

You're from Puget Sound.

And you wrote Posting Peace.

There we go.

And when I preach, I never use alliteration.

So I don't know what that's all about.

But yeah, I forgot I didn't put the podcast.

But the podcast is called Fairly Spiritual.

So that's no P's in that.

So, but yeah, it's...

I do a lot of little things.

I don't know if I do anything well.

But that's kind of how my mind is.

I want to do 100 things at once.

But also sometimes just hang out with the family and do nothing at all.

So that's kind of how I vacillate.

Well, the last P I want to ask you about is platform.

What platforms are you on?

And what's your preferred platform?

Where can people find you if you want them to?

Yeah, this is an interesting discussion.

Preferred platforms.

I'm on a lot of platforms.

Some I do very little posting.

So I have Facebook.

Doug Bursch is Fairly Spiritual is kind of that generic page besides my private page.

Then Fairly Spiritual is my handle on Twitter, Insta.

I use it occasionally, but I don't know.

My struggle is going between all those different things.

I think a lot of us just kind of settle in one area, our groove.

And so Twitter is the place that I settled in.

But I think I have a LinkedIn profile because I was legally obliged to have one.

And I just don't want to take the time to shut it down.

And Pinterest is a thing, I think.

And I have something there, but I have no idea how to use it.

So it just exists there just as a memorial to a time that I once thought it was wise to

be on that platform.

So that's where I'm at.

Awesome.

I don't understand Pinterest.

I understand that it is social.

I don't ever use it in a social way.

Yeah.

I just couldn't use it.

I didn't know.

Like, people explain it to me.

And I still didn't understand what I was doing as I was doing.

And why are we doing this?

Which I'm sure is true with many platforms.

But for me, I just didn't connect with it.

Hmm.

Now I'm thinking about Pinterest and the ways to use it.

I'm sure we could find somebody.

Absolutely.

I bet.

I bet.

That really would be good.

Because I think some of us, we're not against it.

We're not trying to even belittle it.

We're just, tell me?

I don't know how to do this thing.

Am I doing it right?

That's how I always feel whenever I do something there.

And is this right?

So I don't know if that's a good way to use it.

Well, you know, I mean, we're not experts with Pinterest.

And Sarah and I really aren't experts in the social media that we're in.

We're just trying things.

But there are a lot of experts in different fields of social ministry.

Doug, you are about as close as it comes to an expert that we've had a conversation with.

So can you tell us a little bit about your background with tech, social media?

How does that impact just as you're shifting into being pastor and just using that and leveraging it?

Sure.

That's a good question.

Probably the greatest expert we've met is some 12-year-old who just knows the technology better than everyone.

For me, the area that I do have some expertise is I did my doctoral work in this.

And I also worked in media in different contexts of how technology is influencing us,

which is kind of a bigger issue than what is the latest platform.

We don't know if Facebook or Twitter or anything will be around 10 years from now or five years from now.

But the reality is technology is influencing us.

And internet technology is influencing the way we communicate.

So I come from a background where, as a pastor, just dealing with how technology is impacting people,

I actually worked for an internet startup company way back when they had these IPOs launching

and people were making millions of dollars off their stocks.

And that was early days where just the ability to stream something online was a profound thing where it didn't take a long time.

But I worked with those early pioneers of this technology and kind of saw how they interacted with each other

and some of the dysfunctional ways that they interacted with each other.

And then I worked in radio, Christian radio, which, you know, radio is kind of dying out there.

But I got to see how that media or that medium influences people.

And then with my doctoral work, I got interested in this concept of how much a medium influences our messaging.

And I think this is what Christians need to understand.

We sometimes have this idea, well, the message is the same.

We just have a different platform.

But the reality is these platforms change what we communicate and how we communicate.

And any kind of medium, for instance, the printing press is a medium.

And that changed how we communicate.

And we even know that today, who can write a book?

Well, people who are organized can write a book at some level.

So even that reality, that might be very simple.

What does that mean?

Well, that means then our books are written by organized people, but maybe not by random,

abstract people who are just kind of all over the place, who maybe have something to say about God.

So even if we learn about God through books, it's going to be changed.

The message, what messages we hear, what's communicated, what isn't communicated, is changed by the message.

A book has to be a certain length, you know, it has to be a certain style.

That changes what we hear.

We found that with radio, with television.

And now we're finding that with the internet as well.

And I don't think we're taking that seriously enough, that actually these mediums are changing our messaging,

changing our identities, and actually changing the way we abide together in person as well,

as we begin to use these certain mediums more than others.

Well, so it's interesting, just you talked about, you know, with the book, it kind of is this specific corner of being able to get a message out, right?

Or the way the message is addressed.

But you just wrote a book.

And so I'm interested, why did you write a book?

Why was the book the medium that you chose?

Is it that you saw a need in the world that you wanted to address?

And I think you answered that a little bit.

But was it a result of your experiences, both?

Just something else?

What was that?

Well, that's a good question.

Just what form we use to communicate the message.

I'll talk to authors and say, are you just someone who writes a book?

Or do you have someone who's communicating a message?

And if you're communicating a message, then you're using all kinds of different forms.

And that's something I think you have to decide with any communication.

Do I have a message that I'm trying to get out in as many forms as possible?

Or am I just someone who writes books?

And those could be different things.

I'm not saying that you couldn't be someone who just likes to write books.

For me, a couple things.

One, some of these issues take longer than a tweet, take longer than a Facebook post.

There's something that happens even with social media technology where we take things as very temporal.

When we post them there, everyone is kind of the same authority.

We just kind of assume this is some thought someone had.

And I have a thought and you have a thought.

There's something about when you put it in book form that says, I've put some thought into this.

There might be some study behind it.

For instance, my book has, I don't know, like 150 citations of scholars and experts and other people.

So that gets people maybe saying, maybe this has a little bit more substance.

I mean, it might not.

But at least maybe they think it has a little bit more substance.

And then also there's a longevity for it.

With books that I find, especially even as a pastor, you can preach a sermon and the next week it's gone and they're on to something else.

And so there's something about a book where people spend more time with it, which is powerful.

That sometimes even people will give more authority to a book, even if they shouldn't.

But because it's in written form or someone published it, they'll give it more weight.

I used to be a newspaper columnist and that was the same thing.

If I wrote something as a blog post, people would be like, oh, that's nice.

If it was in the newspaper, the same post, they'd be, oh, this is more important.

I'd have people in the city like the mayor read it.

So that's the fascinating thing of how we communicate.

So they allowed me to publish a book.

And also they pay you something for books.

They don't pay you for tweets.

So, you know, I sent that out.

So to me, it's important.

This is an important discussion.

The internet is radically changing how we exist with each other.

And it's creating a more divisive, divided community.

And if we don't take this seriously and start facilitating discussions, I think this is even what your podcast is trying to do.

If we don't intentionally facilitate discussions about how we're communicating, how Christians are to be radically different online than the rest of the people on the face of the earth,

then we have a problem because it is just impacting the general culture of how humans treat one another.

One of the things that you have about your book that I really like is that at the end of each chapter, you have these reflection,

these things that help you reflect on what you've read.

But you've also have these.

The posting piece challenges.

Again, piece, posting piece challenges.

And because then you have the reflection that turns you inward.

And then you have the challenges which turn you outward.

And it's not just, it's real easy to blow through a book and be like, that was a good read.

And then a week later, you're like, I read something somewhere.

Some guy said about something.

But having that time to turn in and think, what does this mean about what I'm going through and what I'm experiencing?

And then having you turn and immediately apply what you're learning, what you're working through.

I really like that.

Well, I appreciate you saying that.

What I've found is people don't want to do those.

I personally believe this.

I could be wrong in this.

But people like to read books that confirm what they already know.

So the best book, the books that do really well.

And I'm not even saying these are bad books.

But a book that's what's wrong with evangelicalism today.

And there's a lot wrong with it.

So that people who are upset with evangelicalism, they're like, yeah.

And then they read the book and it confirms what they believe and even more so.

And it's like, yes, you should read this book because it talks about all the things we're upset with.

And I found those things tend to work more where it doesn't require anything of you.

It's more talking about what others are doing.

And there's a purpose for those kinds of books.

But I found if you say, okay, but what are you going to do versus just agree, then it becomes more difficult.

Because for that book, I don't want to be an intermediary.

So for Posting Peace, I don't want to say, you got to do these five things and these 10 things and do exactly what I do.

Because I don't know where you live.

And I don't want to be an intermediary, an intermediary that stands between you and God.

I believe that God speaks to us directly.

So in each chapter, I challenge people, okay, I've given you some principles, some ways that social media is impacting us, what the scholars are saying, what I'm saying.

But what is God saying to you?

And you have a unique calling and a unique ministry.

And how are you going to respond to this message?

Even as a pastor, I'm always reluctant to say, here's the things you need to do in response to what I've preached.

Because I don't know what you need to do.

But this part, I think people are less willing to embrace.

Because now it's accountability.

Now it's not about what Doug thinks.

Now it's not about what others think.

It's now me taking the knowledge around me and presenting myself in a certain way before the world.

And that's threatening.

Because now people can look at you and they can assess what you're doing and how you're doing things.

And so I put it in there to encourage people that even if you agree with me or disagree with me, don't we need to assess what we're doing?

And to look at, because we can all get lost.

We can all get caught where, what am I arguing about?

At the end of the night, what was that about?

Should I have wasted my day in that interaction?

So that's the goal of those posting piece challenges, is to give people options.

I give them a couple options to be able to apply what they've learned within their context.

And their context and expression might be different than mine.

But I would say, are you doing something?

Because if you're not, you're just going to get pulled into the direction of our culture.

Well, then it doesn't, I like, I write curriculum.

And that's like my jam.

And so no wonder that appeals to me.

I'm like that right there.

I would put that in something.

That's it.

Well, don't you know that with the curriculum, right?

There's, unless at some level, the student is applying this to their life.

I'm dyslexic, for instance.

And you give me a bunch of laws and rules and regulations and things I got to memorize.

And it just doesn't even make sense to me.

At some level, I have to either see it modeled.

And then I have to find a way to model it myself in my own way.

And give an opportunity to do that.

Then the ideas stick with me.

They become real.

And I think that's a danger with preaching or teaching.

And it's even the internet, right?

We post these strong things like they should do this and they should do that.

Thinking we're going to change things.

And sometimes you can change the world just by asking questions.

Where people are applying it to themselves.

What are you doing with your anxiety?

How are you dealing with the fact that things seem to be very polarized?

Then people begin to, in their own self, apply the principles they've learned.

And then also, they're willing to listen to your advice, too, because you've actually brought them into the conversation.

Which I think is a part of good curriculum where you figure out where the people are and where you are and find a way to connect between those things.

And hopefully, if you have more knowledge, you're bringing them in your direction.

One of the things that you, in chapter 6, you share your testimony.

You talk about how God gave you this overwhelming sense of peace.

And that shaped you into being a peacemaker.

And one of the things you wrote is Christians are not called just to be right, but to be reconciling.

So, I want to talk a bit about the tension that exists between our desire to be right versus God's call that we would be ministers of reconciliation.

Yeah, I think this is one of the biggest issues that we haven't determined the difference between being right and being reconciling.

And I would think it's expressed in politics in one of the simplest ways to understand that.

I talk about partisan versus political.

Some people will say, well, Christians shouldn't be political.

And I would say, I think I know what they mean by this, but Christians should be political.

In the sense of, we are in a nation where we vote for our leaders, you should be informed, you should have an informed opinion.

You don't just say, that name's pretty.

You actually should have, at some level, a political understanding of the world around you.

But what people are saying is not that we shouldn't be political, but we shouldn't be this partisan dynamic that isn't about reconciliation.

It's just about winning.

And so in a partisan dynamic, I communicate my side because I want my side to win, your side to lose.

I want 50.1% of the vote.

You go away.

We have power.

You have no power.

So partisan politics is communicated with, we're on the right side.

You're on the wrong side.

It's the debate.

You're a dummy.

We're smart.

That's not what reconciliation is.

I communicate anything, even my politics, because I love the person.

My goal is, I feel like I have some knowledge or truth that you don't have.

I feel like maybe you've bought into a lie or you're just confused or whatever.

My goal is to communicate to you as if you are me, lost.

I love you.

I want to bring you into the light.

I want to bring you into the life.

I want to bring you into a reconciling relationship where you know the love of God.

And you know that I love you as I communicate my politics.

As I'm saying this and people are listening, they realize that's not what's happening.

And so Christians sound just like non-Christians.

There's no different in their spirit.

They're just as ridiculing.

They're just as angry.

They're just as vindictive.

They're just proving their points and trying to win the argument.

And they could care less about that person's soul.

At least that's what it looks like in the way they're interacting.

So we have to find the difference between that, right?

My goal of communicating is I love you.

And if I don't love you, then I have to find a way to have God's heart as I communicate this truth.

Even if it's tough truth, even if it causes conflict, the goal of the conflict is because I want to help you, not that I want to win the argument.

I was thinking this morning about reconciliation and the way Jesus modeled that, you know, he came and he healed people and he welcomed them into just deep, real relationship.

I was thinking about when he, this father comes and he's like, my daughter needs you.

And he's on his way because this father has come and sought out just the best help.

And they're on the way.

And here comes this woman.

And she's had the issue of bleeding.

And so she has been cast out.

She has been outside of community for all these years.

And she is just a woman.

She's probably had real loss of relationship.

And so probably a lot of what drove her is not just this physical ailment, but the loneliness.

And she doesn't force her herself.

She just touches the hem of his garment.

She doesn't force him to talk to her.

She doesn't ask, you know, is it right that I've been set aside?

She just reaches out to him and he turns and he looks for her and he calls her daughter.

This person who is, he is on the way to another daughter, someone who has a father to speak for her on her behalf.

And this woman doesn't have that.

And so it's not just he meets her physical need, but it's this deep, he says, daughter, your faith has made you well.

Like this deep welcoming.

And so, I mean, I think about when we interact with people online or when we interact with people in person, are we interacting with them like, I've got a mission.

I've got to go help take care of what was asked of me.

And if somebody comes up and interrupts us, which is a lot of the kind of the vibe of social media, it's like interruption, interruption, interruption.

It's coming from left and right and all around you.

You wouldn't know where it came from.

Jesus turns around and says, where'd that go?

And everybody's like, everybody's everywhere.

I don't know what you're talking about.

But when we have people coming at us from all sides, it's really easy to be like, to shoot them down and not to spend the time truly welcoming them the way that Jesus truly welcomed this interruption.

Well, and he humanizes the situation.

Even that story there is, there's a crowd and Jesus says, who touched me?

And the disciples are like, what do you mean who touched you?

You're just surrounded by people.

But that's not how Jesus sees ministry, a mob that needs something.

He immediately humanizes and brings a woman out of the crowd.

And then, you know, she touches the hem of his garment, which is where the prayer tassels are.

And probably she thought, you know, this is how he prays.

Maybe there's an anointing by just touching those prayer tassels.

Now, just a way like, I don't deserve his personhood.

I don't deserve words.

But maybe I'll be just healed by that.

And God humanizes it again, right?

And says, no, like you said so well there, you're my daughter.

I want to, in front of everyone, to bless you and to embrace you and to humanize you and to meet your need.

And the internet is a dehumanizing platform.

And it's a disembodied and disincarnate platform.

The incarnation is Christ comes in the flesh, right?

It's not that God said, hey, everybody, I got a New Testament.

And he threw it down from heaven, just like, here you go.

The New Testament came out of embodied ministry, that Christ, God in the flesh, dwelt amongst us.

And so the internet, we are disembodied.

We don't see each other.

We're not in the room.

And it has a tendency to dehumanize us from these personal interactions where we try to find out who this person is, what their heart is.

How can I connect with them?

What is God saying to them and working through them?

That takes more energy in this platform.

It just does, because we're not in the room.

People become ideologies.

They become characters.

We just see them as points of an argument, not as a human being made in the image of God.

So I think what you said there is so important.

And that's the struggle for me is because also, it's fascinating.

Christ went away and he said, before you go out and minister, I want you to wait to be clothed with power from on high.

And sometimes people are like, well, that means superpower to do stuff.

But ultimately, he says, wait so that you actually are empowered with the Holy Spirit in my presence so that you will witness me.

He says, you will be witnesses to all the earth, right?

Well, witnesses is not like I'm going to tell people about Jesus.

It's that I'm going to see Jesus and be with Jesus.

And others will see Jesus as they're with me.

So even the idea of ministry is don't go out and just say a bunch of truths.

Go out and allow people to see me and define me through you and through the Spirit.

That is a very embodied, incarnate, in-person, humanizing experience.

So that takes intentionality that I have to find ways when I communicate to communicate to a human and not to just an idea.

I hadn't thought about the prayer tassels.

And that also speaks to me in this conversation because one of the most effective things that I have tried and that I have other people who have come alongside and they are doing this with me is just once a week we ask people, how can we pray for you?

Can I pray with you?

And we have found that people will come and respond to us and say, I don't know that I even believe in God anymore, but will you pray for this?

Or people of different faiths have come and said, or no faith will come and say, pray for me.

And people that we've lost touch with, or people are just willing to be prayed for.

Isn't prayer humanizing though?

Isn't it like, because when you ask someone, can I pray for you?

There's no, you're not saying you need to do this or that or this.

It's where, tell me where you're at.

Yeah.

Tell me, and so it, by its very nature, it's humanizing the core of who you are and what you're concerned with.

I care about, and I want to be able to help you and want God to be able to help you.

So wouldn't that be the most reconciling thing you could do?

And even if people say no, and they generally are not offended.

If they are offended, then that's probably the issue.

And that's not a bad thing for them to be offended.

But that's human, because they're assuming you have an expectation.

If you say, can I talk to you?

It's like, well, what are you going to talk about?

But can I ask you a few questions?

What are you going to, you know, all those things are threatening.

But that's probably the most reconciling thing you could do with someone, right?

Is there something in your life I could pray for?

That, what says acceptance?

What says service?

And also what says this is more about God than about me and my agenda.

So that is powerful, isn't it?

It is the nature of reconciliation to say, God meets you at the heart of your need.

And if you turn to him, he will be what you need for that situation.

Yeah.

And it puts it on God to follow through, to solve these things.

I'm not promising a solution that I'll fail to live up to.

You know, I'm talking to the God who can.

Sorry, you know, this is just good stuff.

I interrupted you in the last time.

I just feel like this is, I believe that God is always moving and working and active.

And sometimes I think as Christians, we think our job is to start and finish the process.

So we are arguing whatever our point is and trying to get across how you should view God.

But I think we're probably more effective or impactful when we are just a way of love and truth that gives others permission to see, yes, God is working in my life.

There's people looking from the corners.

There's people where God is moving on their heart, where they are questioning things, where they know their life is like, I don't know if this is the right thing.

They know maybe even the darkness in their life, but they don't know that they're loved.

And so that idea to be able to be a safe place where you just love someone and you welcome them and you trust that God's moving in their life, you can have far more impact in a life like that.

Then let's first see what's our view on the Trinity or something.

Like when you start with that place, immediately there's a defensiveness of I have to defend where I'm at.

If you start with the human and loving them, then they can be in process.

They can be incomplete.

They can be confused.

And frankly, if you're honest, you're confused as well.

And so you can express that part of yourself that I don't have it all together.

And if you have it all together and you need to get on your knees because you're delusional, you don't.

And that's your problem.

So anyway, this stuff to me really encourages me because I believe God is working, God is moving, and Christians can facilitate environments where we can be a part of that, where we can say, hey, I'm here with you as you're hearing God's voice and discovering God's leading.

And I'm here to serve that process, not to overtake it or to become the process.

So, another thing that you have in the book, you talked about damming up streams, like putting rocks down.

And I mean, I did that.

I don't know if, Hector, if you went down to streams when you were growing up and put the rocks and you stop it and you redirect the flow.

Oh, yeah.

But that's, I'm glad to hear it's relatable across the ages.

Because we could do it as kids.

We're like, we can stop this stream.

If we always put a bunch of rocks, we'll stop the flow of the water.

It'll be amazing.

Yeah.

So, but you said any call to change internet culture or to substantially transform the way we communicate online can look as foolish as a handful of children trying to hold back or reroute the Mississippi River.

Our best intentions seem like child's play in the face of these expansive, angry, divisive, raging social media waters.

And, you know, I get that.

Like, I hear from plenty of solid Christians, they say, you know, social media is just a trash heap dumpster fire and I am out.

I'm not going to be in that.

There's nothing, there's nothing that can be done to change it.

Or, so they either cut themselves out of it, or they say, in this place, I just can't do anything about it.

So what's the point in trying?

So, it would seem you think it's possible.

Why do you think it's possible?

Well, one, we preach a message of resurrection in a land of death.

And so we live by faith.

Fundamentally, we live by something we haven't even seen.

And we just, we've grown in that reality.

So, I mean, I've gone to enough funerals to know even the concept of life after death.

And these are big issues.

Like, we just believe that there is life.

We believe that we're created in the image of God and that we have an eternal existence.

So, the best things in life are also believed by faith.

I think the world is terrible.

And I talk about all the terrible things that are happening.

But the same thing with the internet is the same thing we could do with this world, right?

And I see Christians doing that.

Christians isolated in their Christian community with their Christian music and their Christian stations

and their Christian content with their Christian friends talking about their Christian ideas

and waiting for Christ to return.

I think that is a waste of the kingdom.

Jesus tells us to go after the lost sheep.

And so, we have permission to go after the lost.

And I like that he says, one lost, leave the 99 for the one that's lost.

I don't know if we'll succeed.

I think I'll stand before the Lord.

And I don't know if I will have done well in the world's eyes.

But I'll say, I didn't bow down.

You know, I didn't bow down.

I didn't work for what rusts and corrodes and fades away.

And I have to live that way.

Most of the things I've done in my life are not successful.

I have a little church that's, you know, 60 people, 70 people.

And I get it.

Yeah, that's every church has value.

But in the eyes of others, it's not successful.

And I don't know how my books are going to do.

But I don't think I'm going to be a best-selling anything.

But I have to do what the Spirit of the Lord has put in my heart.

Because we have a God that's full of so much love that he's willing to leave the 99 to rescue the one.

And I think that's God's heart in us.

And if we open ourselves up to that, he'll show us how to minister in a world that we feel like sometimes is falling apart.

And we all do that.

We all look at things and go, this is hopeless.

And how do I even begin?

And God humanizes the situation where we find one.

And isn't that the power of social media?

I can find one.

I told my wife this last night.

There's a lot of abused people who follow me on Twitter.

And they follow me because I did things like validate them and say, I'm sorry you were abused and sinned against.

And I believe your story.

And I said to my wife last night, I shouldn't have so much influence in these people's lives.

But it's because very few people are willing to listen to them.

I said, there should be thousands of pastors and thousands of leaders who are comforting and encouraging.

And advocating for them.

Because I'm not this huge advocate.

I'm not doing this big crusade about abuse.

I just occasionally write something nice.

I'll write a direct message that says, I see you're having a hard day.

I'm praying for you.

I'm sorry you're being re-traumatized by these people.

But that has to be enough.

That has to be enough.

I don't know if it's five people.

If I can influence the life of one person.

And by the way, you can influence generations through one person.

Then that's enough.

And people who say, well, I'm just going to give up on social media.

Well, you're giving up on a lot of people.

Now, if for your own mental health you can't do that, I get that.

If for your mental health it's just harming you and you need to step back from social media, you do that.

God understands.

But if it's an issue of privilege, like, well, I'm doing fine, so I don't need to deal with these people who are not doing fine.

Then I'd have you question why God made your life fine.

God did not give me a good marriage and a good family so I could spend all my time just within that luxury.

There's a part of me that needs to pour myself out into chaotic marriages, into chaotic families, into broken communities.

So that's my heart in this book.

For at one level the people to see how bad it is, but also to have hope that Christ in me is the hope of glory.

Christ in you is the hope of glory.

And we can get discouraged, but you are having influence, and you're having influence you'll never know.

Like this podcast, you're going to look at the numbers and how many people listen to it.

And sometimes it's discouraging.

You're like, oh, you know, should we do this?

How many people listen?

That's not how you assess kingdom work.

You do it because God called you to do it.

It's obedience.

And then you have no idea who it'll influence.

Someone who never interacts with you, who hears a story from this, never even listens to the podcast.

It brings them hope.

It encourages them.

So that's the way this faith community acts, by faith, led by the Holy Spirit, letting God figure out, you know, the numbers and the assessment of whether this thing is successful in the eyes of the world.

Yeah.

Wow.

Doug, thank you so much for that.

I just appreciate you.

Just so glad to be having this conversation.

Yeah, it made me cry like I'm sniffling, crying.

Oh, man.

I'm not upset about that, but I just become a little more nasally and coffee.

But I appreciate you asking these questions because, you know, it's all about that.

I mean, I, as a pastor in this, I am struggling like, man, this is hard.

You're going to get more rejection than acceptance in person and online.

It's the nature.

It says it's a narrow way, right?

But, man, that one person, they should be enough, shouldn't they?

The one family, the one, you know, on social media, you could be, it's just like abuse.

You could be posting in a way that gives someone permission who's deciding to leave an abusive church or an abusive marriage.

And your one tweet could be the last tweet that's like, you know what?

Yes, I'm not foolish to know that I need to contend for my health.

I am going to leave this community.

And you could be that person.

And I believe that.

People say, oh, you've never changed any person's mind through a tweet or a post.

And I'd say, that's not true.

It's not true.

You can give someone that final word of encouragement that allows them to say, I'm worth something.

I'm going to go to college.

I'm going to change my life.

Whatever the issue is, it could come through Christ in you.

Yeah, I, again, just love the practicality that some of what you were sharing was of just showing up, the humanizing, of just showing up and asking questions or noticing, just noticing, right?

And so I think as we talk about how to give hope, I know that you said that you can't give the five things to do that will make it a successful social ministry.

But if you had just a few words of advice, someone who was looking at potentially starting to use their social media places as a ministry space, how would you advise them about the day-to-day of how that works?

Sure.

Sure.

And within the book, I do have lots of practical ways you can assess ministry.

And for instance, there's one posting piece challenge that I would encourage anyone to do is go over the last two weeks of your communication.

You can go longer or shorter, but get a few of that, whatever platforms you're on, and just look at what you're posting.

And C, does that represent who I am?

Or is it an exaggeration of one part of my life, but another part of my life is missing?

That's important.

I think we all know people like that.

We even know pastors and leaders who are online, they're kind of jerks, or they're just all political.

And you know I'm in person, and you know they're more than that, that there's some really good things, but their genuine personality is not coming online anymore.

If you died, right, and someone read, I know pastors, if you died today, but like if you died today and someone read your last 20 tweets, would you be embarrassed?

I mean, I get it.

You know, it's not all spiritual stuff, but I think this will help you.

So that's the kind of stuff.

One of the things, too, is when you communicate about any person, communicate as if you think they're in the room with you.

Humanize it.

So I don't care if someone's a celebrity or another pastor or person.

I want to communicate, like, would I talk this way if they were in the room?

Because that changes the dynamic, even the way we confront people.

You know, you're not going to be a jerk to someone if you know they can punch you.

You know, there's an aspect of where in the room it influences us.

So that's another area where I make sure in the room.

Another principle, and these are just some of the many principles of if you're struggling with big issues online, let's say immigration or race issues.

Okay, it's all right to post your opinions, but I would encourage you to trend local in the sense that, okay, I'm struggling with racial relations in the world.

This is what I'll often ask people where they have strong opinions about certain, you know, CRT and race.

And I'll say, well, what do your black friends think about this?

I'll just ask them that question.

And it's kind of a devious question because if they don't have any black friends, then maybe they need to just stop posting and just develop some relationships and get a better perspective.

Not that every black friend would represent all of the needs of a certain community.

But this is what we find.

We have people have strong opinions or immigration.

Go towards your local group that's dealing with immigration.

Go towards a group that works with immigration needs in your community.

Have conversations.

Volunteer.

That will make the issue much more three-dimensional.

It'll also get you some people that you might love and so you might speak differently in these sweeping statements.

So, to me, it helps me also with the chaos because I don't think we're supposed to be aware of everything all the time.

We're just not.

We just can't take that.

And so, there's garbage going on all around us.

But probably what we have the most influence with is the stuff that's happening in our neighborhood and in our cities.

So, the injustices that aren't trending, the people who are hurting that you can actually bring a meal to or you can actually just talk with and connect with.

So, that helps humanize things as well to trend local.

And, you know, one of the other ones, too, is I do believe we're supposed to be spirit-led.

And that means we pull away from the crowd, as Jesus did, spend time with the Father, and then decide what to do based on the Father's leading.

Jesus started ministry in Capernaum, and he was very successful.

And he went away to be with the Father.

And the disciples were like, where are you?

You know, everybody wants to see you in Capernaum.

And Jesus says, you know what?

I need to go other places.

And this really touches me as a pastor, because if I was having revival in Capernaum, I wouldn't leave Capernaum.

I'm like, God's with us.

Let's just do the World Outreach Center in Capernaum.

But Jesus, even when he's successful, is like, no, I'm not going to go based on whether it's a good interaction or a bad interaction.

I'm not going to take my next step based on what God has created or what hasn't been created.

I'm going to be spirit-led.

And we need to do that as well, because I could also just interact with people who feed me and hide out in these communities that are really fun and people praise me for what I do.

But if I stop, the Holy Spirit might say, I don't want you just to stay in Capernaum, Doug.

I want you also to go to these other people and engage in other discussions you don't want to engage in and be with people that are more complicated to be with.

So the spirit-led reality allows me to leave the room or stay in the room and to be okay if someone else leaves the room led by the Lord.

And I don't feel condemned that that's what they're supposed to do, but I'm supposed to stay here.

So the walking out of all of this is messy.

And so I want to make sure that we touch on what happens when it doesn't work out.

So do you have an example or a story about a time that you failed at posting peace that maybe despite your best efforts, it just couldn't be salvaged?

And what you learned from that?

Well, the word is key.

Learn, isn't it?

Are we learning or are we so defensive we can't learn?

I remember the first time someone accused me of mansplaining.

For those who don't realize what that is, just ask a man and he'll explain it to you.

Well, let me tell you, Doug.

Yeah, that's right.

Let me tell you.

No, what you do is you wait for the female in the room to explain it.

And then you go, what she really means.

And then you say what?

So I'm like, I'm a sensitive man.

I'm not a mansplainer.

I'm an advocate of women.

And so the first person who did this, and by the way, whether they were right or wrong, I can't even remember.

But my first instinct was to defend, right?

By the way, defending against mansplaining doesn't go well.

There is a catch-22.

That even if you aren't mansplaining, you are.

If someone views you as that, that's how they view you.

And you can say otherwise, but you've got to be okay with the Lord.

Well, in that interaction, I immediately got defensive, and the person was really good at arguing.

And then in the middle, I just realized, you know what?

I just got to say I'm sorry that whatever happened here, that's how I'm coming across.

And my goal isn't to win the argument, but for this person to know that I respect them, and I know who I am.

What can I say genuinely true?

And I said, I am sorry.

I'm clearly not doing this right.

I want to learn.

I want to grow at this.

Thank you for expressing that.

Well, that helped me with the next interaction.

The next time someone was either bringing up or at some level saying something like that, immediately, instead of being defensive, I went to validate that.

Say, I'm sorry.

I don't want to do that.

So let's find a better way to communicate here.

Or more.

I'm just going to do listening.

Often when someone says mansplaining, it's also just an issue of, I just need you to hear me.

I don't need you to fix me.

By the way, my wife could tell you that idea.

I don't need you to fix me.

I don't need you to do anything, but just listen.

Can you just listen to me and respect my opinions and respect who I am?

And so I learned from that.

I talk about in the book about dealing with trolling behavior that there is, it's totally appropriate that when someone is harming you to block them and mute them.

And so this is what I do with that.

If someone comes on really strong, and as a pastor, sometimes people attack me because I'm part of a category.

So they don't know me.

And the first thing is some, all you pastors are in it for the money.

And it's funny because I'm bivocational.

We've always barely made it financially.

And I want to argue against that.

I want to say, you don't understand.

But they'll be really hostile and negative.

And what I do when someone's like that, my first statement is to humanize.

I'll even say things like, are you trying to hurt me?

Because these things kind of hurt.

I'm just a person.

I'm just interacting.

I'm not trying to fight with you.

And if you just, whatever you say, something that humanizes, not even about the argument, you'll either find two things.

Either they'll go, oh, I'm sorry.

I'm not saying you.

I'm just saying in general, I've had bad experiences with pastors.

And suddenly a human rises up from the anger, right?

And then you can have a dialogue.

So I'll continue.

But if that first gracious, kind, loving response is responded with a doubling down, more anger, more attack, then I know this person is just upset and angry.

I don't want to keep them sinning against me.

I don't think Christianity is just putting yourself in front of someone so they can slap you continually.

So I'm going to keep them from sinning against me.

I love them.

And so I'm going to not allow this interaction to continue.

And I'll do something where scripture says, love your enemies, bless them, do good to them.

So I will do something that loves them and blesses them in my last response, knowing that a person like that will always want the last word.

And I need to just let that happen because they will want the last word.

That nature is the last word.

And I've had people block me for blessing them.

I'll bless them and say, may God bless them.

And they get so angry that I won't fight with them, but they block me because of that.

So to me, that's one of the boundaries.

You learn, I want to decipher where they're coming from, what's going on.

And then my heart has to be right.

Like my goal is not you hurt me, so I'm going to hurt you.

I feel insecure and I need you to help me with my insecurities.

I am insecure.

But it's not a good place to get my insecurities met by someone who's angry at me.

That's not going to be the way that Doug is going to deal with his insecurities.

It's through Christ and through loving community.

This is the time to just, okay, Lord, I entrust this person into your hands.

So those are some of the ways I've dealt with it.

For me, my problem is I got lots of opinions and I think I will hurt people where I come

in with my opinions and I don't know them and they don't know me.

And then I get upset and take it personal.

But I have to be careful.

If someone doesn't know me, why would they take my opinions?

And why would I take theirs?

So that's not a mean thing that someone would be, my opinions would be suspect because we

got to build some sort of relationship to trust each other.

Yeah, no, that's good.

So thank you for sharing some of those.

And I mean, those obviously are hard to share as well, right?

Because it's places that we've failed or we have not done well, right?

At our first go, if you will.

So can you just to be able to kind of bring back some hope, can you just tell us a time

where you saw actually success in engaging with someone online and it actually helped deepen

a relationship or bring about reconciliation that drew people from place of division into

togetherness and how that really can glorify God through the way that we interact with one

another?

Well, by the way, one thing about just sharing our failings and our, in Christ, we are in

the center of his grace.

We're not on the edges falling off if we do something wrong.

And when you believe you are in the center of God's grace, then you joyfully look at the

sins that are in your life.

That's an expression of God's love.

There's no shame in that.

It's in a climate of grace.

You can say, man, you know, I am not doing well as a husband.

I'm not doing well as a father.

And you share that story, not joyfully, like you're rejoicing in your failings, but you're

rejoicing that you abide in a place where you can bring those to the light.

And this is a problem with some Christians.

They believe righteousness is in doing things right.

And when you point out that they've done something wrong, their whole identity crumbles.

So they fight with you.

They can't apologize.

They can't admit to failings because their whole identity and righteousness is wrapped in

doing it right.

That is not my identity.

My identity is in Christ Jesus, his grace and his love.

And in a climate of love and grace, he conforms me to his image.

So I can talk about my sins.

I can repent.

I can grow.

And you'll see that.

Christians who won't apologize, they have the wrong gospel.

They have a gospel that righteousness is through doing things right.

And no man or woman can ever be right all the time.

The success story for me is this, that I work within a group of diverse people.

My online presence is far more healthy and diverse than my in-person presence.

I'm trying to have my in-person presence there, but I haven't been as successful.

But I like the fact that I'm interacting with people from different races, different ethnicities, far right, far left, and that we have genuine relationships where we can love each other and respect each other and have dialogues and speak into each other's life.

So to me, and that's taken work and it's taken time.

That would be the thing that I'm most happy about.

And that's an intentionality.

An intentionality of looking like, you know, I hardly have any women in positions of authority that I'm following right now.

So I go and find that to make sure that there's a better expression.

Age groups.

Like, you can just hang out with your own age group.

I want to make sure, am I just hanging out with Generation Xers or do I have a good representation of millennials and zennials and whatever we want to call people?

You know, I want to make sure, and older people, that reality is something that I want expressed in my, so that would be the big one.

I have personal stories with people where I met them when they were hurt or they were angry.

I listened to their anger.

I listened to their hurt.

And we became friends, the ability to trust.

And there's some people online that I trust.

I've never met them in person, but I trust them as much as the closest person, you know, in our church.

So I do believe you can have meaningful, in-depth relationships online.

And so when people say you can't do anything or you can't have anything online, I would question maybe the way you're presenting yourself is impacting what you get out of your online communication.

I think all of us at some level can find deep relationships with people online who have similar opinions, ideas.

You know, even this is kind of a cool thing, right?

We don't know each other, but we kind of do through social media.

It's beneficial, I think, to all of us.

And that's a gift.

We wouldn't have had it if at some level we weren't interacting online.

So this would be an expression of that as well.

I wasn't afraid going on to this podcast because I'd seen enough interaction online to know, well, this is a safe place.

So those kinds of relationships and those kinds of testimonies I see on a daily, weekly basis.

That's a good compliment to me.

I think to Hector as well, that you would look at our, you know, you would look at our profiles and think these are safe people.

Yeah.

Well, it's huge, isn't it?

And we are looking for that.

And just, and Hector's interacted with me a few times and I've interacted with him.

And that's where we have to really, it's not about our ideology or our politics.

It's just someone who you feel like is kind to you.

Yeah.

Okay.

Or they're not going to tear you apart if you disagree.

Like you feel like they're okay if we don't agree on everything.

They're still going to show love to me.

And you don't always find that online, right?

You're afraid.

Like it's everybody's walking around the temple ready to turn over a table.

And I just feel like we just got a bunch of table turners.

And Jesus was known as love and table turning was something he did that was an exception to what he did in most places.

But he's still known as love.

Other people are just known as table turners.

So you're sitting in the temple of God trying to do something worthy, not selling pigeons, not hurting foreigners.

You're just trying to bless people.

And someone comes up to you and snarls at you and says, am I going to turn over your table?

And you show them your stuff.

Like, okay, not today.

But you have this fear that tomorrow they're going to turn over your table.

We have to be people out there saying, hey, even if we disagree here, I'm going to try to find a way to love you first and to understand you first.

Yeah, I might flip your table.

But at least we're going to have a discussion before we do that.

Yeah.

At least you'll know who's flipping your table.

Right.

Yeah.

Oh, that's the son of God.

Right.

Yeah.

And then if I flip your table, I'll die for all the sins in the room as well.

So that's another thing to remember when you're flipping tables.

Jesus also died for every person in that room.

So you also got to lay down your life for the people that you're fighting against.

Yeah.

Wow.

That's so good.

Well, do you have any, we are, we are at and beyond.

We shoot for one time and we always overshoot.

Have any closing thoughts?

Juan, just thank you for what you're doing.

And I do want to encourage you.

The strength of the age we live in is anybody can create content.

I don't mean that flippantly.

It's like we can create content.

And I self-published my first book.

My second book is being published by a publisher, but I consider them both works that I'm proud of.

I just want to encourage anyone listening to this is that we do well when we do what God has placed on our heart.

We become bitter when other people are doing what God has placed on their heart and we're just assessing them.

I think often where we're assessing people and disgruntled with people often has to do with giftings that we're not using.

So if you're upset with a pastor or preacher who's, you just don't like other preaching and teaching, okay, that's fine.

But maybe you also need to start communicating that what's happening is you don't have an outlet for your voice.

So do the podcast, write something, post something, talk to someone, because it's so much more redemptive to have something flowing out of you versus just reacting to other things.

Yes, there's sins to react against.

Yes, there's bad pastors, bad leaders.

That's fine.

But if we're just doing that, we grow bitter and disgruntled.

We were made at some level to be vessels of God's glory, to emanate his beauty.

So I would encourage anyone listening, at some level, find an outlet for God to speak through you.

And it can be anything, poetry, dance, art, speaking, spending time with people.

That brings a different perspective to us than when we sit down and listen to the person that gets us a little disgruntled.

It changes our attitude because we're being used as a vessel versus just being a spectator.

That's good.

Thank you so much for your time, Doug.

I really just appreciate this conversation and just your insight and just really looking forward to more conversation with you.

All right.

Hey, Jeff here.

And we're back from the Pocket Pulpit Podcast Takeover.

Got Hector Martinez, Sarah Kinzer here.

Hey, guys.

So let me ask you this.

What stood out for you as you were listening to this episode again?

Yeah, absolutely.

I think one of the things that I appreciate about Doug is that he is active on social media.

It isn't just something that he's using, you know, to promote his book, promote materials, or, you know, as we talked about at the top of the episode, like, just invite people to events.

Like, he's on there talking, posting questions, engaging in conversation.

And I always, always, always go back to his point in the story about Jesus seeking out the one and what that should do to us internally.

Like, if people are online and they're lost or there's somebody who's been hurt by the church and is just in this kind of mess of life or trying to figure things out, like, shouldn't we go and find them?

And I think that, to me, when I hear that, as I listen back to that conversation, it's always kind of in the back of my mind.

Try to keep that in front of me as well, like, there are people here that matter to Jesus.

And if you really want to live out the greatest commandments, like, you got to love those people.

And I think that Doug lives that out and is a great example for us in the church as we explore what it means to not just be on social media, but to invite people into relationship with ourselves and with Jesus.

Yeah, and when Doug is talking and he talks about, I mean, he gets so, he's so vulnerable and that vulnerability just, I mean, I've listened to this episode several times, several times since we recorded it.

And that vulnerability, it just, it just hits me every time.

And to think about what is the, what matters, you know, what does it, does it matter the size of your church or the, the things that you can say that you've done?

Does that stuff matter or does, is what matters that you've cared for people and you've loved people and you've gone, you've gone after the ones who are hurting and broken and, and loved them well.

And, um, yeah, that, that vulnerability just really, I remember when we had the conversation, every time I've listened to it, um,

you know, you can hear Doug getting choked up and every time I listened to it, I'm right there with him, just getting choked up because I've been, I've been able to, to go and love people well, but I've also been on the receiving end of get, of being, um, being cared for.

And it, and he's right.

It, it matters so much.

It matters so much.

It matters more than, um, being, uh, a, a pastor of a million people.

It matters more than, um, having a bestseller.

It matters more than, than any accolade you could come up with.

Well, I will, I will share too, cause I've personally, uh, benefited from Doug's ministry in that Doug has reached out to pastors online and said, look, the last few years have been rough.

And if anyone wants to just pray with other pastors and process, like I'm going to open up a zoom in an hour.

And I, I got to hop on a zoom and there was two people and Doug didn't go, ah, actually like, this is a pretty small gathering.

Like I was hoping more people would show up.

Doug said, okay, you've got more time to share process and pray and, and do that.

And, uh, um, I, I just think that the, the person that Doug is on this episode shines through and, uh, it's probably going to go down as one of my favorite episodes.

I actually got to meet Doug in person too, randomly, uh, which was great.

Uh, you don't always get to, to do that with the people you interview, uh, online.

So.

Very, very cool.

Well, I'm even reflecting.

I don't know if my episode with y'all has, has aired on Pocket Pulpit Podcast, but you had me crying too.

So I'm actually curious and you can listen to that podcast if you want.

Uh, I was, I got, got a little emotional.

What's the percentage of people you have getting emotional on your podcast?

Cause that's, that's two and you guys haven't been around that long.

And so I'm, I'm wondering like, what, what are you doing to make everybody start crying?

Well, I'm, you know, I'm not running the numbers.

I'm not really a math gal, but you know, we do, we do invite, um, invite people just to speak from their heart.

We want to hear their stories.

And, um, you know, when, and just to tell us what, what's worked and what hasn't.

And often it's in that, like, when they think about what have I tried that hasn't worked and

what have I tried that has, then they can remember those stories about like, about everything that

they've put into it and everything they've learned from it.

Cause it matters.

I, it matters to the people you're reaching out to and it matters to, to you as you reach out to people.

It, it, it changes you.

Very good.

And that is, that is true.

So pocket pulpit podcast, you can find the information, uh, links to subscribe in the show notes and would

encourage you, uh, to give these a listen, get them passed on past this podcast on to the social media

staff and volunteers, communication people within your church and really start to wrestle with social

media, not just being a, a communication tool, but a community tool, an opportunity to engage in

relationships more than just communicating what's happening as, uh, as a weekend service or an event

that's happening at your church.

There's so much more potential and we'll also include, um, uh, his, uh, a Burge, uh, Doug Burge,

excuse me, Doug Burge's, uh, contact info, or at least the social media info.

Like if he's setting the example, we'd love to have other people kind of follow suit on that.

So look in the show notes for some of the information on him and, uh, you can tell him,

well, by the way, a couple of weirdos was on Jeff's podcast and that, you know, anyway, came up.

So, or maybe a couple of really nice people were on that weirdo, weirdo Jeff guys podcast.

And, uh,

Yeah, we're, we're in the, we're in the pocket.

Yeah.

We're, I think we're all a little weird here.

So, but Hey, we're, we're going to land the plane.

This is great.

Hey, check out pocket pulpit podcast.

Look at that.

I said it quickly.

I have been unable to say that for a week.

And so pocket pulpit podcast, it's, it's rolling off the tongue now.

I got past my yips.

So excited about what's happening here, uh, with these two.

Check it out next week as we're having another, uh, uh, the church digital podcast takeover

from another podcast that will be announced soon.

So we'll see you guys, uh, next week at the podcast, but for Hector, for Sarah, this is

Jeff with the church digital, digital church network, and a whole bunch of other fun stuff.

Thanks for jumping on the podcast here and we'll see you next time here at the show.

Y'all have a good one.