Season 3, EP208: Dr. John Harris, Jared Hughes, and Reaching the De-Churched, Digitally

So the deep church, yeah, they're going to come, they're going to come hurt, they're going to come

broken, but we can separate what happened to them from who they are, the value that they have as a

son or daughter of God. And that's game changing. Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through

this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church. But more than

tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. Is disciple making possible digitally?

How should we approach the digital mission field? Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital

space? Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this? Whether you're a big or small church,

an established church, or a startup church plant, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like

yours learn to be a multiplying church, digitally and physically. Our heart that churches like yours

will discover a newfound focus on disciple making that will revolutionize your church.

And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

Hey, this is Jeff with the Church Digital and Leadership Network, New Thing Network. Oh my gosh,

Digital Church Network. I feel like I just can go on and on and on with all these titles. But I tell

you, I'm having so much fun right now. Like it is a blast. My dog doesn't sleep at night. So I got

about three hours sleep last night because my dog sleeps all during the day. So I'm exhausted,

but it is so much fun. Do you ever have that problem? John, do you have any pets? I'm totally

going off topic here. I'm just I don't have any pets. No, but I have that. That may be the smartest

thing. Well, no, I have three daughters under the age of seven. And so sleep is still an issue for you.

Yes, it is. That's good. Hey, listen here with the Church Digital here with this podcast, we're entering

into season three. And really what we're highlighting here with season three is this idea of the humble

disruptor. Yeah. Hey, listen, if you listen to this podcast, you know, we are all about disruption and

we're all about doing things differently. And it's funny, actually, I was speaking in front of some

global leaders maybe four months ago or so. And this lady pulls me aside and she's with a global

missions organization. And she says, I want you to know that what you just talked about was very

disruptive within the church. And I can understand why people look at you weird sometimes, because these

are some really disruptive and difficult topics to handle. And I said, I appreciate that. I do get a lot

of weird looks. And she said, but I want you to know, I've never heard anybody say anything as aggressive

and as disruptive as you just did and have the humility that you had when you said it. And she said that

made your words so much more impactful because you weren't doing disruption for disruptive sake. And it was

like, oh, my gosh, that right there is the summarization of what I want to do with my life. And now, as we're

trying to encourage others to be disruptive in the season, engaging in different modes of church, man, let's keep

that humility in place with that disruption. And by the way, sir, Dr. John Harris on here, he is the walking

embodiment of humility while being disruptive. And so as we're kicking off the season, I don't know that I was

intentionally trying to structure this, but you truly are a perfect example of somebody that's, you know, showing much

humility and grace, even while doing something as disruptive as you're doing with with hearts like his, your Facebook

church. And so, sir, thank you very much for jumping on this with us.

Yeah, my pleasure. Glad to be here.

Hey, like, let's even have some fun just kind of kicking off here. By the way, we're doing this show on

on social media. And so we are all over the place. And that's awesome. We love it. And so if we at the

same time, we're, we're testing out this new technology, we're trying to, to get a regular live

stream happening in our alter live kind of showroom here. And so I'm actually looking at the stream out

of the corner of my eye. And I think we've got some technical difficulties. I know, uh, my, uh, uh, my

associate is, is working on it, hopefully trying to get in touch with alter live. They've been having some buggy

issues. I don't want to call them publicly, but some issues with some RTMP streaming. There's some patches

that are supposedly coming. And so if we get it working, I'm going to encourage social media people

come hang out with us over in alter live and enjoying the show over there. But yeah, you may have a better view

where you are right now. So in social media, so we'll, we'll get there in a little bit, but Hey,

even just to open up here, uh, Dr. Harris, um, tell us a little bit like who you are, what's your story?

Talk to us a little bit about how, um, how, uh, hearts like his is, is working and operating.

Yeah. Um, so I, I, and I don't know how many times I've heard this, but I'm, I'm part of that group.

I grew up as a pastor's kid, but what was unique about my experience was that my dad was an air

force chaplain. And so, um, for the first part of my childhood, he was an air force chaplain.

And then he retired and then he started pastoring a church in Arkansas and, um, uh, Baptist church

in Arkansas. And that's where I really matured and, uh, just learning some of his own, uh, leadership

and things like that. And certainly he was a mentor for me in ministry. And so that was a tremendous,

tremendous asset to me along with my mother. Um, both of them were just solid, solid believers.

And so I had a strong, uh, Christian foundation, um, not just from like a Sunday school class

or things like that, but from my parents' lives and, uh, and the atmosphere that they created

in our, in our home. And so, uh, after, after high school, I went to college. Uh, well, I,

I accepted my call to ministry when I was 15. And so going into my sophomore year, um, I was,

I started to be in ministry and speaking whenever I had opportunities to. Um, and so I committed

when I was in college to go into full-time ministry. So I, after college, I went to seminary,

uh, in Memphis and, uh, and then into the air force as a chaplain. So as a chaplain in air force

for nine years, uh, spent a tour in Iraq in 2007 and Afghanistan, 2010, ministering to, uh,

troops that were there as well as our, our medical team. Um, and so then about after nine years of

that, I, um, I left and joined a church here in Northern California in Fairfield as the, uh,

Christian education pastor and teaching pastor. Then I evolved into small groups, pastor, executive

pastor. Um, so after nine years of that, um, I stepped down from that in 2019, just feeling like

I wanted to serve more churches. Um, and not just the one that I was serving at as far as helping

them turn some things around. And, um, and part of that was me watching some of these trends that

actually led to the birth of hearts like his, it's seeing that churches were in trouble. Churches were

not healthy. Churches were declining or plateauing, depending on whoever you talk to

between 80, 85, 90% of churches in America have been plateauing or declining for a lot of years.

Like that's been a consistent, you know, Barna report, Pew research report. That's been a

consistent trend for several years and nothing seemed to have turned it around. So I just felt

a conviction, man, let me just kind of step down from this full-time role and help as many other

pastors and churches as I, as I could. And then when, um, when COVID happened in 2020

and, uh, um, a lot of churches were looking at trying to do something online and I thought,

well, okay, I'm not, I'm not at a, at a, on staff at a church right now. And, uh, and I'm seeing this,

this increase in the number of people who are leaving the church. Um, some were leaving the faith

altogether, but many of them were just leaving the church. And, uh, so as I dived into that to find

out why and do some research, that's where I ran across Josh Packard's book, which I would recommend

any pastor or anyone looking to see some of the insights behind this trend, uh, his book church

refugees, which is really good. But, um, um, um, so long story short, I thought, uh, man, why I think

it's possible for us to do something on Facebook, to just try to target those people who have left the

church, but still love Jesus. Like that, that's my main demographic, my main target, those who left the

church, but still love Jesus. And, uh, because God's plan for them is to still be in the body.

And, uh, and even though one expression of church might not work, there are other expressions of

church. One of which I was getting ready to lean into myself, which was the online one. And I think

if I had started a hearts like his, which is really for now, uh, a congregation on Facebook,

if I started that five, six years ago, I might've had a more of an uphill battle,

but starting it in the midst of, uh, of COVID when, um, a lot of churches were online,

it kind of helped me slide in with, with not as much resistance. And so, um, uh, looking at people

like Angela Craig, when she started for search to pursue church live on Facebook, looking at some

things that Myron Pierce was doing in his digital ministry, I thought, okay, this really is possible.

So me and my wife looked into it, leaned into it, and we started it January 5th, 2021. And so here we are

a year later, well, now a year and some change later. And, uh, and it's, it's been a great, great

experience. And, uh, and certainly I've learned a lot, um, because we were successful in targeting

some of those people in that demographic I was talking about who left the church, but still love Jesus,

and now we're finding a really healthy and thriving community online. And so it's like,

it's just been a dream come true.

I gotta tell you, it doesn't feel, it feels like you've been doing this longer than,

than, than a year or so. Like, it feels like you've had, we've had more conversations and you've,

you've had more experiences. So when, when you're like, yeah, it was January 21. Man,

that was not that long ago. I know. I know. Yeah. Congratulations. You feel like a seasoned expert

in the grand scheme of, of digital churches. And, uh, I totally, I really want to unpack. I'm going

to, I want to come back and I want to ask you a question about your military. We'll do it at the

end. Don't let me forget. I want to throw that on as a takeaway. Cause I forget that you have got

that military expertise. I want to get into it. All right. So really, I mean, what I wanted to do is

I wanted to talk about this idea of de-churched, uh, you know, within digital churches and metaverse

churches, I've got friends of mine, uh, Jason Poling, Cornerstone, uh, Yuba city,

Cornerstone virtual reality. Um, he tells me, Jeff, 70% of the people that are active in our church,

uh, virtue and virtual reality are de-churched, uh, and just constantly, uh, you know, I've had this

conversation with Jared, uh, uh, Hughes, uh, Jared is over at, um, uh, Hope city church. Uh, yeah.

And, um, and, and so he's, he's telling me stories where it's this huge percentage of, uh,

of, of de-churched as well that are active in there. And so I, you know, this is a, this

is a unscientific observation, but it seems to me like de-churched people, people that have

left the church, um, inserting the word building, but still love Jesus. It seems like they're engaging

in digital spaces. Would you like, this is unscientific, you know, I don't have like

massive white sheets backing me up here, but would, would you agree to that? Or do you,

do you feel that through, uh, through your church?

A hundred percent, a hundred percent. And so what I, what I cannot say is what percentage of those who

have left the, the, the building are plugged into these digital spaces. But what I, and others,

like you've mentioned, can say is that for those of us who are in these digital spaces,

there is, uh, above 50% of those are people who have left, who have left the, uh, who've left the

building. Um, ironically, you know, when churches talk about being missional, whatever they say,

the church has left the building. No, no, they hadn't. They may have for a weekend, but they,

but they really, or, or a day for their event, but they come right back to the building.

There is another part of the church that has left the building for real. And those are the ones who,

who are in these digital spaces, which actually supports the, the, the reality that these people

have left one expression for church. They did not leave Christianity. They did not leave Jesus,

but they left searching for other ways to, to live out their faith, strengthen their faith,

flourish in their faith, um, and to connect with other believers. And before the digital space

really got, um, really got rolling, there was no other place for them to go when they went from

first. They, most of them thought, well, many of them, I haven't surveyed most of them. Many of

them based on their reports thought the problem was just one congregation. And then they went to

another congregation, another congregation, another congregation. And that's when they realized it's

not congregation specific or pastor specific. It's this model. And when they, when they

realized that it was the model that didn't fit them anymore, the Sunday focus, the worship, the

teaching, the offerings, the serving, you know, that, that model didn't fit them anymore. There was

nothing else out there for them that they knew of. And so they just didn't do anything. So with the

rise of house churches, with the rise of digital churches, now there's another, you know, there's

more options on the plate for them to kind of choose from. And so that's what's happening.

Yeah. You know, if COVID did one thing for us, it kind of messed up all the models and it broke the

mold of the brick and mortar. You know, and, and honestly, I do believe COVID won't accelerate. I

think we were destined to get there eventually. It just, COVID, God helped us get there a lot

quicker. But you're right. You know, the, the digital church, digital ministry, digital discipleship,

the, the acceleration that we're seeing in micro church in, in, in many ways, workplace ministries,

like the, the individual now is, is looking for, for purpose. And, and I honestly, I do, and we'll

talk more about this in, in future episodes, but I think we're going to be seeing a, a decentralized

movement. I think where you see a lot of, of individuals that are very excited about ministry.

They are now excited about the ministry beyond what happens in that building because of maybe

the struggles and the issues within that, that building. And so the church has an opportunity

maybe to, I hate to say the word pivot, cause we've heard that a lot, but have this opportunity

to engage in maybe helping others do ministry instead of asking others to help them do their

ministry. But that's a, that's a completely different conversation. Well, let me ask this.

Go ahead, go, go, go for it. It is a fuller and different conversation, but it is tied to

this one because when I talk to pastors who are saying, what, what can we do to prevent

this exodus? And, and so one of my recommendations is, is to, to add another model or expression

of church with your church. If you don't do that, then the people who are needing it are going

to go find it, but you can add something to your particular ministry and, and, and make

it, make it meaningful. And the, the, you, you mentioned a word there about purpose, seeking

purpose. Like part of what's happening is people are looking at, and I'm not trying to diminish

this, but this is a reality. We got, we just got to talk about it. When you have a growth

track and you're saying that two of those four weeks is one is find your, you know, your gift

assessment, like your, your, your, your giftings, and then to discover your purpose or walk

in your purpose. Well, when churches use the word purpose, they're talking about volunteer

positions, like people waking up. That's not the, God's purpose for the life is not to be

a greeter or this or that, or anything that's an hour and a half on Sunday. Like it's much

bigger than that. And so when churches help them discover their purpose for real, it could

be in the building or outside the building. Nine times out of 10, it's outside the building

and churches aren't helping people find places in their community to serve out their

purpose. They're only so far looking at a volunteer role, which is that more internal focus that

people who are leaving are trying to break out of. Yeah. Churches can't shift if they

shift. Totally, completely. We use the word multimodal a lot, at least when I was, when

I wear my Stadia hat, a church that's running multiple modes. And that's, that's a physical

church that's doing a micro, a physical church that's doing a digital expression. And, and

honestly, like I tell people, fidgetal was really the first time that churches had to wrestle

with being multimodal with wrestling with a physical and a digital. Now, to be honest, like

a lot of churches really struggle with the idea of, of a dichotomy, you know, that, I mean,

for, for many years, it was simplified, do one, do one, do one strategy and do that very

well. And, but just the reality of where we are today is people don't trust often the one

large thing. It needs to be decentralized. It needs to be empowering. It needs to be infused

with friends and individuals where there is trust because they're not going to trust those,

those organizations like they once did. I joke in a blog post I wrote recently, I was like,

pastor, congratulations. Your seminary degree is not trusted as much as Google and friends.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's funny. Like I even, I had, there's a friend of mine,

he's a pastor in Alabama. I'll reference Alabama again in a second, but pastor, a friend of mine

in Alabama texted me and he's like, you see, when you don't work for a church, you can say stuff

like that. When you work for a church, that's a quick way to get you fired. So yeah, yeah.

That's what it is. Speaking of Alabama. Hey, we got Chris, Chris is in here. Hey, Chris from

subsplash watching from Alabama. And I've got Rob Seibottom who is all the way in England. So we got

multiple continents engaging with us here on this, by the way, we got our altar live thing figured out.

So if you want to jump in, head over to the church digital's altar live platform, just in the web

browser, type the church digital.altarlive.com. You can jump in into the show. It's going to look

the same thing as it does here. You can engage. We've got some people in there already. I'll be

taking questions. If there's questions, you can drop it in the chat there and altar live and we'll be

engaging in altar live along the way. So, Hey, let me ask you this, Dr. Harris. When we look at

at D church. Now I, I hesitate to ask this because I don't want to offend anybody, but from a

stereotypical perspective, do we see, do you see, and this is unscientific, but do you see any trends

towards age, towards race, towards economics? When you look at, at a D church person, are there any

characteristics that stand out or is it truly a blend across multiple characteristics? I, I see a blend.

Yeah. Nothing uniquely stands out about the majority of those who have, who have left as far as, as far

as demographics, the, the, the, more of the trend is the psychographics where it's your people who

volunteered a lot, people who were giving a lot, people who were, you know, it's more like their

church behavior, um, is higher percentage of people who were part of that 20% that we say is doing all

the work. That's where a large portion of the D church are coming from, according to Josh Packard in

his book from his, uh, 2015 study. So, um, so, and that was before COVID, you know, people are already

on the brink of leaving. And so when, when, when COVID happened and people started surfing or church

shopping online, um, and they were able to visit four or five different services a week, then they

either popped into one, you know, they're able to kind of shop more or, or ease or faster.

But, um, but then, and some of them try to still pop up in a tent and that's when they discovered for

them that, yeah, the, the, the format wasn't working for them, uh, that popular expression.

And like, and I think we just had to be okay with that and not take it personal. I mean, there are a

lot of pastors who are, because they, anytime we invest our lives into something, when there's a

criticism of it, we're going to take it personal. But if we can get past taking it personal and hear what

people are saying and not demonize them, not try to throw scriptures at them and accuse them of

forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, then if we can hear them, we can, we can, that will

lead us into some creativity and some innovation that will enable us to serve them and a whole nother

group that thinks just like them. And where we can offer these other expressions of church in a

multimodal context. It's not one, it's not either, or it's all of it. It's all, it's the body of Christ

in multiple expressions. And I think we just need to thank God that all these options are available

for, for, for Christians who have different lifestyles, different, um, you know, life rhythms,

you know, things like that. Um, the one model of this doesn't work for everybody all the time

anymore. Yeah. You mentioned the word listening or hearing several times in that, when you were

describing the church in a digital church, specifically kind of engaging in that, I would love an example.

Okay. I mean, can you, I don't, I don't want to drop it. Don't drop a name. Like I'm, I'm not as

interested in that, but you know, I, I just, I know in digital context, hearing and listening

is so important. It's so much more valuable to ask questions and make statements. And so

we'd love to maybe for this audience, just describe a little bit of what that,

what that can look like or has looked like through hearts like his.

Yeah. Um, okay. So, so one, um, one couple, uh, they, they had expressed to their pastor that they

were feeling like God was calling them to do a particular ministry. It wasn't necessarily

to leave the church, but to do a particular ministry. And because that whole thing kind

of blew up because again, if a pastor is thinking, Oh, you want to do something different than what we're

doing, then you automatically get put into this category of trying to be an Absalom. You're trying

to overthrow the kingdom or trying to be rogue or not submitting to authority or, or all this stuff.

And, and so, um, so several people have talked about how difficult of a conversation they had

with their leadership when they're just trying to be honest about what, what was stirring in them,

what they sensed God was wanting to do in them. And they were thinking about something where

it could add to that congregation, but there's, there wasn't a paradigm for adding to that pastor's

congregation or that, or that particular church. And so it ended up being a separation. And so they

ended up ended up leaving and they're just looking for a context like this. And so, um, and so now

part of what I've done with them and others is to kind of help, um, help with some, some wound

healing, uh, some of that stuff, because I'm like, no, God's hand is still on you. You're still

gifted. Whatever God told you to do. He hasn't changed his mind. We still need you back in the

game, but now you have an injury, right? Now you, now you've got to bandage you up and, and kind of

reaffirm, no, you did hear from God. Um, you know, all these kinds of things so they can go, okay,

I'm, I guess I'm not crazy. So let me get back in the game and do this and do ministry. But I think

if, um, if, um, and again, I'm talking about several conversations where they actually didn't

just leave. Like a lot of pastors will talk about folks just left and didn't have a conversation

because many times when they do have a conversation, it blows up. Like it just doesn't go well.

So people have learned to leave without the conversation. And then you might feel dishonored

or disrespected, but no, there's a reason why they didn't have the conversation.

Whether it's true or not, they have their own reason, but others have had the reason. I mean,

they've had the conversation, but, but they didn't, um, they didn't have it where a pastor

had listening ears to listen to what the heart of what they were saying was. Uh, they weren't trying

to leave, didn't want to go, uh, or maybe, maybe some of them did want to go, right? Some of them

did want to leave, but instead of being blessed and sent out, it just got to be this breakup and it

doesn't have to be a breakup. I mean, even a lot of church splits right now could have been church

plants if the conversation was different. Is it hard to have that conversation with somebody

where maybe, you know, maybe they, they just walked away and it wasn't healthy or it was healthy, but

you know, many times it's the conversations like there are unhealthy, there are hurt feelings.

Is it hard to have those conversations without ripping, without trashing like the, the, the church

they're leaving from? Like, how do you, how do you nuance that conversation? Yeah.

You don't want to be critical of the past. You don't want to be, and you're hearing half

of the story. So how do you, how do you do ministry without doing ill will here towards,

you know, our brothers, maybe at other churches? Sure. I, I want to provide a space where we

are, uh, we are open and honest about our experience. And maybe there was something that

was a spiritual abuse. Maybe there was something that was traumatic. Maybe there was something

that was your fault. Maybe you offended them. They've been to you, whatever. But as we move

forward, if we're going to have hearts like his, which again, is the name of our ministry,

that we want to allow the Holy spirit to dig deep into our hearts and get out whatever junk

doesn't belong there. And if we, if we have an apology that we need to, that we owe somebody,

then we need to be, you know, mature enough to have that conversation. But as we move forward,

um, we're the, uh, you, you can, you can learn from your past without trying to, um, disrespect the

people who are part of your past. Um, so, so even like last night, last night, we had our time

together and I was sharing a little bit about speaking in Orlando at the, the, you know, the

digital church, uh, workshop there and how, um, there are some people who still don't, who still

don't even think it's a legitimate expression of church. And I'm like, it's okay. I mean, I made a

post about it. You comment on that, right? Like some pastors want to argue about it is, is being as

online. Can you actually have a church online? And I said, well, some are arguing about that. Others

are wanting me to come from California to Florida to talk about it. Like then we're just going to go

with that. So I was telling the people in our fellowship last night, I said, listen, don't argue

with anyone about the legitimacy of church online or not. It doesn't matter. We all are wearing the

same Jersey. We're doing the same things. And, and it's okay. If we differ about what we think is

biblical or not, it really is. Okay. We're seeing fruit here. God's changing your lives, our lives.

And we're in context biblically. I've got a doctorate of ministry. Uh, so we're not out of

bounds here. I didn't just come off the street and be like, we're just going to make up something

else. No. And my doctor is in transformational discipleship. So, so it's not going to be an

easy conversation for anyone to try to talk to me about, about whether or not we can disciple

people online. I have a strong ecclesiology for it, a strong theology for it, biblical basis

for it. And it is what it is. And if people disagree, it's okay. So I'm talking to folks

in hearts like his and saying, don't even get into an argument about it, right? Let's say

in the spirit of unity, even with our differences, it's going to be okay. There are others who

are looking for what we have. They're looking for what we offer, invite them, plug them in

and let's see what God does. And that's, that's, that's where we're at.

Yeah. Yeah. So, so good. It's funny. Even just the heart of that, the humility of the disruptor,

it's right. Hey, like we're, we're, we're not going to argue. We're going to, we're going to,

we're going to prove it on the battlefield. We're going to look forward and, and on the,

on the mission field and how we're discipling and who we're, who we're, who we're reaching and how

we're connecting and how we're multiplying that that that's, that's the victory lap. That's the

celebration. That's what I think we're fighting towards. And even within my own team, it's,

it's encouraging, Hey, let's, let's not, let's not lean into those fights. You know,

and, and it's funny, like even talking about humble disruptors here in the, in the altar

live platform. Uh, we've got Jeff hook, who's like a CEO of a church technology company and

Jared Hughes, which we just talked about Jared. I don't know, maybe 20, 15 minutes ago. He's

in here in altar live as well. Chiming in, uh, Jeff hook, actually, he said something that,

that I just, I want to give a shout out to here. Um, I think many in Europe left the church

because of the religious wars between the Catholic church and the Protestants years ago. And Europe

is largely would, would be a post Christendom, um, environment. Now people are leaving the American

church because of cultural wars in this country that are not showing the love of Christ. Um,

that's interesting. That's maybe a little poignant. Um, and, and he, he can say that it's his right.

Uh, so you can, you can email Jeff. No, I'm kidding. Don't, you know, not to me. Uh, but it is,

it is interesting as we've seen just so much, even within culture, you know, I, I, it's funny,

like I hesitate to even use the word Trump in like sentence, not even talking about just even the word

Trump, because I just, I don't want to like stir up something and rip off the bandaid one way or the

other. Like it's, it's not even political side either way. It's, it's an unsafe word because of how

either side's going to react to it. And so, you know, we're seeing that tension. You've been,

you've been a pastor in that environment. Well, let me ask this question, kind of even pulling that

same thread as a pastor currently, what are you doing to maybe guard yourself from, or your church

from that? So like you're reaching out to de-churched people. What are you doing to prevent people in

your church from becoming de-churched off of maybe even some of the stuff that Jeff's talking about

hear about just the different cultures, uh, and moving away from the church here in America?

Yeah. Well, a couple of things. One is, um, I am consistently preaching the gospel that like

every week it's, it's, it's God's message of love and forgiveness, uh, through Jesus Christ. That's,

that's literally been every message, every different topics, but pointing to the same thing. And,

and here's why, um, so, so, so definitely strong on the, on the gospel truth, but also talking about

topics specifically. So we're going to talk about political division and we're going to talk about

ethnic division. We're going to talk about that through the lens of the gospel, because in this

context is an opportunity to disciple people through these particular changes. And, and here's,

here's one benefit I have that a lot of pastors don't. There are a lot of pastors who, I mean,

they know who they're going to vote for this past election, right? They know their stance on,

on vaccines for, or against it. They know all that, but most of them did not feel comfortable

saying their particular stance from the platform, because you have people in your ministry who are

on both sides of that wall as well. Um, well, you know, of all these different issues. And so

they're trying to pastor people through that and trying to honor everyone's, everyone's thing,

but they didn't say, so some of the congregation members wanted some strong stance one way or the

other. And if they didn't get that strong stance on a political issue, they left to another church

that got that, that, that was promoting that. But many pastors felt uncomfortable because it would

mess up with the money, right? When people leave, they take their money, they take their volunteer

position, all that kind of stuff. And no one see their, their congregation fall apart over something

that really is not central to who we are as, as a church. Well, I don't have, I don't, I'm not,

I don't, we don't take up offerings and stuff. There's a giving link that people want to give,

but I don't, my point is, I don't, I'm not tied to needing people to give, to maintain the ministry

the way others are. I don't have a staff or a building or those kinds of bills. So I don't really

have to navigate around that for those reasons, right? And I'm not saying everyone did for those

reasons, because like I said, it's just tough to pastor people when you got blue and red in your

congregation, pro and anti-vaccine in your congregation and all that. But it all comes down to the bottom

line of losing some of your budget if you make the mistake and folks take off. And I don't have that.

So I'm going to, I'm going to talk about some stuff from a biblical perspective and, and, but I'm not

going to pick sides necessarily either. So, yeah. Yeah. You know, I remember, I remember when Jesus was

talking about being sensitive to, to speaking gospel truths because of budget concerns. And, you know,

I remember there was a time that Paul was, was chastising the, I'm kidding, of course.

Yeah. Well, see, here's the thing. Like if you, if I know that if I talk about this particular issue

on a Sunday, I'm going to, it's not, it's not, maybe not, I'm not afraid of talking about it. Maybe

I'm not afraid of talking about it. What I'm afraid of is losing budget enough to where I'm going to have

to let a staff member go. Right. So where, cause that was already fuzzy for a lot of churches anyway,

because of the natural decline in, in, in giving and things like that. And so it's not worth it to,

to launch out with a particular stance one way or the other for some, for some pastors, because the

bottom line would be another hard decision that they'd have to make. And it probably wouldn't affect

them. If they do budget cuts, the pastor's salary is not the first one on the list. It's usually some

others. And so they didn't want to have to be, you know, to take that risk just for something that

they could, you know, move past in a different way. So anyway, have you actually ever met Jared

Hughes? Have you guys had a conversation yet? No, I've just seen him online, him and his wife.

It's funny. Like Jared, Jared is blowing up in the chat. This is my life. This is my blood. This is

my heartbeat. I love this. Like, cause he's, I just, I've had so many conversations with him

that have sounded just like this. And so I just, I find this comical how it's coming together. Jared

will be on next week and we're having a conversation about Bivo Kovo, which is, I know is, is another,

you know, heartbeat of yours. And so I don't want to, want to pull from that. And so, yeah, this,

this is, this is solid. Um, let me ask this question. So I, some of my, uh, church leadership

brethren, some of my, uh, maybe their friends, maybe they're just people I know, you know, I've,

I've heard them say, Hey, doing digital is a cop out. Going to a digital church is, is, is a cop

out. These people need to, you know, insert some aggressive term about coming back to the,

to the body, not run away into a digital environment or something where they're, they're copping

out. Um, like how do you respond in those situations? What, what does that, what does that

look like for you? Yeah, I, I, I would dive deeper and say a cop out from what? Um, like

and instead of being able to go back to the body, the physical body, the incarnate body of

Christ doing this digitally, they need to address their, their, their sins and their issues within

the church that they had the issues with. And instead now what you're saying is, Hey, go

to a different model, a different expression where a, maybe we're not addressing the, the

larger character flaw that may be within the individual. And number two, they're addressing

a digital expression of church instead of physical, which may or may not even be legitimate.

I mean, let's be honest. I'm not even really making this model up. Like there are people that,

that would think this and that, that have said this to me. And so that kind of flies against

some of the stuff that you're talking about. What, what's the response to some of those

situations? Sure thing. Whether it's, whether a person is in an in-person congregation or

a digital congregation, the biblical principles of handling offense is still there. And so even

when, um, if I'm talking to a person in our congregation, our fellowship, or someone has

had an office with somebody like, you still need to deal with that, you, that, that that's

a biblical principle. And so I will kick back and say that the digital, maybe, um, that the

digital space, uh, is not a place to escape biblical conflict resolution.

Okay.

That is, it's not that, but I would also say to that person that some people came to their

in-person church because they did the same thing for another in-person church.

So that's not a slam against being in digital space. That same thing happens before digital

was a thing. People popping around because they were escaping offense. They didn't like this

pastor or they, whatever. So that, so as long as that person who's concerned about digital

space being a cop out is also that's that concern with people in their congregation who may have

joined their congregation because of offense somewhere else, if they're tackling that, then

I appreciate your concern in this digital space too. But if you're not tackling that, then don't

try to use that as something to downplay, uh, the, the digital space. Um, so, so then the other,

there's another part to what you were saying, um, and I was going to try to write it down. So,

but I didn't want to lose that. Um, tell me again, because it was a really good point. I didn't

really thought back until responding to that, that thought. Um, so it was, it's, it's either somebody

not addressing maybe a character flaw or an issue within their own psyche. Uh, but then also looking

at digital as a substandard. Okay. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay. So here is the big piece that I want

everyone listening to this, um, uh, presentation, this interview to, to learn. You cannot put every

digital church under a broad blanket because all of them are doing things differently and you don't

know what they're doing in there. So let me, let me unpack by saying this. Many people, when they think

of, uh, they don't know the difference between church online and an online church. Okay. So church

online is you taking your Sunday worship experience and broadcasting it online as is. Right. And the

same spectator model of in-person sitting in a seat, watching what's on stage is just transferred to the

computer where you're sitting on your couch, watching everything on a screen. That's, that's,

that's for some people that's church online. Some churches saw that and said, is that now we want

to create a more active and engaging experience for the people who are watching online. And so they

dived into that and created some other, other things there, but online church is not just taking

something from, uh, uh, a sanctuary and just broadcasting it. It is more engaging, more

interactive. So when people don't understand what really is digital church and all the different

expressions of it, then they think that it's the same as online church where people are just sitting

back watching what's going on. And that is not what digital churches do, at least not what effective

healthy ones do. The reality is that whether you're in the digital space or in-person space,

you've got to be intentional about creating community either way. And, and there are,

so there are ways to do it in person and there are ways to do it online, but just because someone

is online, it doesn't mean that you're not creating community and building relationships and having

accountability and having transparency and openness and honesty and praying about legitimate,

legitimate needs. Um, anyone can tell you that by being in person, that alone, that has not solved

their community issues, that hasn't solved their accountability issues. People can intend every

single week in person and you still not know them and they still not know you, but they can go

through the motions. But so there, so there has to be something that engages that person with an

interact and interpersonal react, uh, interactions, small groups or whatever, but you still got to be

intentional about building relationships in person. And the same thing is, is online, but some people

that don't understand it. So I, I don't, again, I don't argue with people if they just want to argue,

but if they want to learn about what we're actually doing, me and others who are doing this well,

I'm happy to explain it to them that, that there, there is more of a, of a dialogue and interaction

that happens. So that's why we do things on zoom. Now we are, our meeting is on zoom and we stream to

Facebook because we want an open dialogue and, and chance to talk instead of just responding to,

um, responding to comments, which we did for a while, but it added to the, uh, added to the dynamic

of the interactions and the prayer and the accountability and the questions. I mean, it's, it's,

it's quite a community. It's quite a community. And one person actually said, being in hearts like his

helped me see what I was missing from my in-person experience. Like it's, if you do it right,

it can be done well and people can grow and mature and experience relationships and accountability

and community and biblical church. But if you don't do it right, then they won't just the same

as if you don't do in-person, right. That's the reality across the board.

Definitely agree with that. And, and creating that community, using the content to create the

community. It was funny. That's one of the reasons why we were doing the podcast. Uh, you know, we,

I was like, Hey, let's do this live. Why not? Uh, you know, let's, let's throw it in. Let's create

a community center around altar live. And, and we're going to continue to push that over, uh, through

here with the church digital.altarlive.com. Uh, and, and plus the fact now that it's live,

you never know actually what's going to happen. And so, Hey, uh, Dr. John Harris,

I'm going to go ahead and bring Jared Hughes into the conversation because I want the two

of you to actually like meet, uh, because in many ways you two are very passionate about

the same sort of things. And so Jared, man, thanks for jumping on here. I know we recorded

a conversation earlier and that'll be on in a couple of days, but I know that you're passionate

about this de-churched audience as, as well. And so maybe just a little second here and, and

respect to Dr. John here, but Jared, like what y'all's take through, through, um, uh, a hope

hope city church. How are you, um, uh, addressing and maybe reaching out to the de-church crowd?

Yeah, I think it's, you know, uh, like John is saying, it's the realization that just because

the person has left, left the church doesn't mean they have left Jesus or the church as a

whole, you know, uh, they have maybe moved on from a, an in-person setting, traditional

setting. Um, and, and they still have Jesus. They still have people. They still have a gospel.

They still have a great commission, but you know, we, we are a, we are a funny species,

you know, as humans, you know, uh, God's image bearers, so to speak. And, and who knows,

there's lots of reasons, um, some good, some bad, some ugly, some sad, um, why people move

on, um, from that type of setting. Uh, and I think the folks that we're reaching, um, a lot

of them are that I've enjoyed this conversation so far. I'm like, oh my goodness, there's more

of us out there. Wow. You know, we, you know, and it's, it's just amazing to see what the

Holy spirit is doing in the body of Christ. Um, and I love, uh, uh, Dr. John, what you said

about, you know, the difference between church online and the online church. Um, that is, that's

a great point because it's not the same. It's two different, two different things. Um, as Jeff

knows, we, you know, we've been pastoring for 25 years in suburb, suburban America, urban

and the suburbs or in a, in a rural communities. And, uh, uh, we, we were had just planted a

church in Bothell, Washington, our third church plant that we have been graced to do. And right,

right before the pandemic hit, we had just started getting our feet underneath us and we, we switched

to digital like most, most did. And it took off and it opened our eyes to, wow, what is going

on out here in the world, you know, and start deep diving into all of that. And of course,

Angel Craig has been, has been a big mentor to us as well. And, you know, we had, you know,

uh, about a year ago, I was offered a building, uh, church building, debt-free building to continue,

you know, to bring our in-person to go back and our team decided, you know, um, no, we

don't want to do that. So we turned that building down the property down and continued online.

And, um, that's not for everybody, right? It is for us. And it's really opened our eyes

to, you know, again, just on faith. Well, social media loans, 3.7 billion people are active users

on a monthly basis. I mean, what an audience that the church has been giving, a great and

effective door, you know, so to speak, has been opened to the church. So it's been exciting.

There's a, I would love both your takes on this. There, there's a, I don't want to call it a

movement. Maybe it's an idea, maybe it's a practice, but, uh, you know, a lot of times when you talk

with planters, um, church planters, uh, they're, they're more interested in, in reaching the,

the lost, which may sound bad because I think the lost people that don't know Jesus, the

atheists, the agnostics, I think, I think they do need Jesus, but there's an intentionality.

And I use that word strongly. There's an intentionality towards going through towards

that. And not necessarily going towards the church, maybe because perceived baggage or other

issues. Um, like maybe just to help both of you, Dr. John, you go first, but kind of what's,

what's your response? What's your take, um, towards that? How would you advise a planter that may be

thinking, Hey, the D church has got too much baggage that I don't want to spend time investing

into. I'm better going after somebody that's purely lost. Yeah. Um, it's great to go after,

after the lost, um, because I mean, that's, that's the mission of the, of the gospel. Um,

but when you do that, you're, you know, only you're going to be praying for some leaders to help you.

And one of the interesting things about the D church is that sure, there are some that have left

wounded, hurt, offended, really immature and how they handled stuff and all that. But the majority

of the ones who are the duns, according to Josh Packard, are the ones who are the mature leaders

who are serving, giving and faithful. They're the ones that, so we're, we're, we're, we're,

so the in-person expression is missing some of those, um, more mature people who, again,

just left because the model didn't work. And sometimes offense, sometimes

bad conversations, sometimes whatever was the, um, the impetus or the stimulus to that awakening.

Like this is not fitting me anymore. And they, and they left. And so I think, and so part of

what I want to do in Hearts Like His is to gather them and then deploy them because many of them are

skilled. They're, I mean, competent in a lot of different areas. They, they, and many of them were,

they were the workforce when they were in the building. They can still be the workforce,

in the church through digital space. So I'm providing a context in digital space to gather

them all together, but I want to deploy them and I want to help them launch in person, like in their

home. So it's not like we're just going to be digital just until Christ comes back. Uh, even

though I think that could be okay, but I want to use a digital space to help create living room space.

Like that, that's the, one of the big end goals for me. And so it's the, it's a variety of places for

those who wanted to come, get healed to go, okay, what you experienced was not good. That wasn't the

church. That wasn't the gospel. Let's dive into that. Get you back on track with where you are with,

with God and what His plan is for your life, namely to become like Jesus. And then let's see,

what are you supposed to be doing? Where are you supposed to be going? Where are you, and let's,

and let's go out. And, uh, and the cool thing about targeting them is that they don't want to

reproduce why they left. They don't, but if they don't learn something else, then that's still their

default. And by, and by default, they'll still do it. Kind of like, I want to be like my mom or dad.

And then you end up being like your mom or dad. Cause that's all, you know, you have to learn

something different. And so on hearts like his, they're learning something, they're learning

something different. They're learning about forgiveness. They're learning about grace.

And so peeling off these layers, um, of religion so that when they go back out there, they're going

out with a different message and it's not red tape and a bunch of hoops. It's, it's Christ and

him crucified. Yeah. Shane Higgins is in, uh, the ultra live, uh, environment right now,

jumping up and down at your digital space that grows.

Oh, same. Yeah. That's, that's, that's a great line. And I think he's going to start to own that

through, uh, only one church. So very cool there. Uh, Jared, um, man, what, what's your take here

with, uh, planters maybe struggling with the focus to, to identify and reach out to de-churched,

um, is, is, are they, or what, what are they missing? How would you coach them on that?

Well, I think it's, uh, depending on what kind of circle you're a part of or where you're coming out

of, um, it's, it's fixing the notion that the church is not for the church,

you know, um, story after story, uh, passionate planters, visionary planters who, you know,

once you're here, the church is not for you anymore, you know, so get to work, you know,

your seed is not, that, that seed is not for you to fill any longer. You know, you're,

the church is for those who don't know Jesus over a period of 20 or 30 years.

You're hearing this over and over again, over and over again, over and over again, the church

is not for me, the church is not for me, but who's it for, you know, it's a theological thing

ultimately, you know, um, I, I think it's, it's, you know, I love what Dr. John is saying.

It's like, if you get a de-churched person healed in whatever shape or form, they're,

you know, they're the ones who give and tithe and serve and will do ministry and equip the

saints and make disciples. And it's like, uh, those, those, you know, really, if you think

about when you're planting, you know, some of those people you're planting with, I wouldn't

necessarily say they're de-churched, but they're from a church somewhere and they're leaving

that church to become part of your team. And they're not de-churched, so to speak, but

they're, they're leaving somewhere. And some of those people that, that join your team,

um, they're hurt. They could be one step away from being, coming to de-churched out of,

out of just, you know, gifts and talents, not being utilized, um, again, to be a person,

uh, that, you know, their ministry didn't fit the vision and the model of that particular

church organization that they were a part of. And they, they, they get shipwrecked sometimes.

Um, uh, again, not wanting to plant with hurt people, because hurt people tend to hurt people

in the long run, but healing people also end up healing people. And so I think, uh, it's realizing

that, um, not again, being a person who got stuck in that, you have somebody that comes who's de-churched,

delusioned, you know, and also like, oh, that's a little too much baggage. We're too young. We're too,

we're too, uh, you know, we're like a sack and we're a new planted thing. We don't want anybody to come in

and ruin this, this evening to get, you know, started. And man, we just kick ourselves. We just,

we just end up hurting ourselves in the long run, you know, because again, we're not, you know,

I guess, again, you're reproducing like what you don't want to become and you end up becoming

that and you're like, oh, how did we get here? And I have some thoughts over this.

Totally. Totally see that. Thanks. Thanks for sharing that. Um, Hey, I, I did want, I wanted

to dig into one question and, and this is going to be, this may be off topic. Now let me ask

this up front. Jared, are you, are you military background?

I am. Yeah. What, what are you? You can't hear it yet? I can hear it. I know. I don't

want to assume he's, he's a Marine, but if I've ever seen anybody that was a Marine, it's going

to be Jared Hughes. No, I'm a, I'm an army, uh, infantry veteran. Okay. All right. Our army

infantry and Dr. John Harris, you were, you were what when you, with your service, you were

a chaplain. I'm the people that army calls for help when they get in trouble. Okay.

We'll roll with it. Uh, Jared, we'll make sure you get Dr. John on speed dial and, uh,

we'll be good moving forward. No, we love it, man. We look, all, all of us, we work together,

but we sure have fun messing with each other. Awesome. Love it. Hey, so actually I want to

ask both you guys this question. And so I love the D church conversation. We're going to wrap

on that, but I, I'm going to, I'm going to open up a little bit here. Uh, and just even

the situation we are in Ukraine and Iraq, it's created a unique perspective that I think

may actually reach into some other people. And I'm actually really glad I got two, you

know, military guys coming in here. So I've got a troll. Um, I, Jeff Reed personally have,

have a troll in my life. And, uh, this guy has been very active in my life. Um, he was

a former student back in the day. Um, he shows up maybe every three months where he'll crash

some live broadcast that I'm doing, say some misquote, some Bible thing that is totally

out of context and completely wrong. And he's getting the message completely backwards. And

so, um, yeah. And so, like he's, like I said, he shows up every three months and disappears.

Um, I had, I had a conversation with him and, uh, he, I mean, literally he called me one day

and, and, and, and we just had an opportunity to really, to, to dive in, open up and just

really transparency, him, him talking, uh, long story short, dude's carrying some baggage

from military. And, um, and, and, and so like we were in a good place. Um, all this stuff

in Ukraine started and, and, and, and it was a trigger for him, I think. And now I've seen

him go back to some of that, um, re-engaging in that. And so I kind of set all that story

up to get to this point, you know, seeing a lot of this unfold, I got to imagine there's

military people out there, similar to my, my friend, the troll, literally my friend, the

troll, who, who are, that bandage is getting ripped off. All that stuff they've been packaging

in from, from the mess of, of war, from the mess of, of military that's, that's ripped

off. As, as pastors, as church leaders, as, as friends on social media, how do we, how do

we help that? How do we speak to that? How do we serve that need? What, what do you advise

somebody like me and somebody like, maybe, maybe as we're listening to this, we're picturing

people, maybe even in our own lives, uh, that are, or maybe struggling with this. What, what

do we do here? Um, uh, Jared, would you like to kick us off?

Well, I think, you know, my active duty life is very short-lived, um, though I've been around

the military, my, I was a fourth generation person in the military, but my entire family,

my wife's entire family's military. Um, I have a son that's a special forces guy now. Um, so

this is a big conversation right now. Um, my brother just, uh, retired after 30 years

as a Marine tank officer. Um, he actually led, he was the company commander that led the tank

battalion into Afghanistan. Um, so we, we were having lots of conversations regarding this.

I think, um, um, it's connecting, um, and let's say this way, uh, combat veterans, um, special combat

veterans, you know, um, who've been around it now for two decades, connecting them with the right

people to have those conversations. Um, for the reason I use my brother for example is I've, I've never

experienced combat, you know, I was in and out before anything even happened. Um, the conversation

with my brother though, who has, who's, uh, been in more deployments than I think one person should

be in, um, who will see more combat in his life than, you know, than a lot. Um, who's lost troops

under his command, who's, you know, done the war stuff, you know, um, connecting veterans with people

like that, who love Jesus, who are following Christ. Um, they can't, they have a unique, unique

perspective that, uh, like I for sure don't have outside of, you know, uh, my, my military

career, um, short career as it was, um, it's not really a lot to say, but I think, um, yeah,

if we can have a network of men and women who, um, have experienced those things they're experiencing.

And I think it's also, then as a father, you know, my son again is in the military. I have, uh,

three nieces and nephews. I just, my youngest, one of my nephews just finished first recon

in school. I have a niece who's on her way to become a, uh, a, uh, uh, uh, helicopter pilot.

I have another one who's, uh, they're all officers. Um, you know, so it's around, we're discussing

it a lot, you know, and then you see what's going on that all that we've gone through, you know, as,

as a world and as a country where, you know, I think for a lot of veterans, it's the automatic

talk of, Hey, we need to get, we need to get troops over there. It's like, man, that is a bandaid that

you're, it's a wound that is being ripped apart. Yeah. I'm not really sure how much to say maybe

Dr. John can speak even more into that, but yeah, it's definitely not an easy, not an easy thing to

navigate for sure. Dr. John, what's your take? Yeah, I was, uh, I was a chaplain in the air force.

And so when, even when I was active duty, um, I was the, uh, you know, confidant for a lot of

people, um, as they're processing through different things. Um, and, and a lot of the things happening

now, um, militarily, um, as it relates to war and stuff. Yeah. I have my own triggers. Uh, last year

when we pulled out of Afghanistan and Marines got killed, I had a major, major problem with that.

I was in Afghanistan in 2010. Um, and, and part of why I had problems with it was, you know,

and it didn't matter. And here's what the reality is there was no really nice, easy way to leave

Afghanistan like ever. So it was likely that something like that, you know, could happen,

but then there are, there are details about that. I just have problems with. Here's my point

as a former chaplain. And as a pastor, I'm also getting calls from other people who still want

to process out loud their experience of this while I'm personally processing some of my stuff.

Okay. What's a gospel centered view of our departure from Afghanistan? What's a gospel centered view

of the Ukraine, Russia situation? Um, and it, and it really is tough. It really is tough. There's part,

there's times I'm like, man, we should just gone in and crushed all that. Right. And then other times

I'm like, you know, but the reality is I don't like war. I was, I was in the hospital in Iraq and

Afghanistan. I've, I've seen it. I've seen it. I've felt the ground shake when bombs and mortars were

coming in. Like I've been there. It's, and so it's not something that people who have been a part of

are a big fan of, but on the other hand, sometimes, um, we, we do see where it might be necessary,

um, to, to prevent a larger evil or larger fallout and things like that. So, um, so the, the, even when

I was in the air force, right, the balance, I remember talking to a guy, talking to a guy,

we were out there, we were in Korea. We did this little worship thing out on the strip. And so

there are all these clubs and bars and all this kind of stuff. And I saw, I saw a guy up, uh, like

three stories up leading out the window. Um, they had, it opened up the window. So we were worshiping

and singing. And so they, Oh, I saw the window open. Like there's some intrigue to what we're doing.

So you're drinking his beer. So I told folks, I'm like, I'm gonna go up and see him and talk

with him real quick. So I wanted up there all the time I've been to a bar that was just a bar and not

like Applebee's. So I went up there and, uh, I'm sitting at talking to him and he says, he asked me a

question. So he's a, he's an A-10 pilot. He says, what does God think about me being able to have

the capacity to kill 10 million people with what I carry on my air? My, my, my jet.

Did they teach you that in seminary?

Nope.

So, so balancing Christianity with a direct in order, because as a pilot, if he's given that

order to drop that payload, wherever you're dropping it, it's, it's over. Yeah. So we talk

about that a little bit, but here's the thing. This is what I would say, Jeff, to you and this,

this troll that you apparently asked God to remove three times that he said, my grace is sufficient

for you. I am, I'm not going to remove it. Um, is the, listen, listen, whether you have military

background or not, when someone comes with some stuff like that, the first thing you want to do

is just listen and ask questions. So why do you feel, what is it about what you've experienced that

makes this so difficult? Sound like the bandaid is being ripped off. What wound is opening up for you?

Listen, don't try to debate politics. That's not what it's about because you're going to lose that,

right? Those of us who are over there on the ground, we have a different view than those of y'all

who watched it from TV. It's just, it's just, so you're not, you're not going to win that,

but what, why is it, what, what makes this hard for you? What, what, why is it that the bandaid

getting ripped off or what, what do you not like about this the most? What hurts the most? What

bothers you the most? What would you like to see happen? See, it's just questions. It's just

questions. And that is a ministry end of itself. So even if people have not, have no military

background, nothing at all, they can oftentimes feel unqualified to, to step into that space for that

military person, but everyone can listen and everyone can ask questions and just help that

person process out loud. You'd be surprised how well that can, that can be actually ministered to,

to an individual. Yeah, that, that, that is so good. Um, this guy called me on a Facebook messenger

out of the blue, maybe, maybe three months ago. Like, you know how you can like voice dial and

messenger. Uh, he took a shot, he took a shot at me and I replied back. I was like, Hey, if you

really feel that way, here's how we're going to solve that problem together, come join me. And, uh,

and, and so he, um, um, he called me and just, I mean, literally I was funny. I was actually

like at a conference and was supposed to go be with a bunch of people and whatever, it's some

networking. And I was like, I'm going to have to stand outside. I was in Kansas city and

in like a short sleeve shirt. And it was January and always December. And it was freezing. And

so I'm outside in a short sleeve shirt in December in Kansas city, freezing, talking to my troll

and just, man, what's going on in your life? I haven't seen you in 20 years. Like what,

what's the, and just starting to kind of unravel through that. And, uh, you know, just even in

my own life, I was like, okay, we're on top of this. We're good. And it's fun. It's just,

I was, it was like, right when the war, when the war hit, you know, and then, and it just

this, this whole other level. And so, I mean, it's, it's, um, it's, it's horrific. It's,

it's an awesome opportunity. Uh, it's, it's, it's honestly, I look at it as a privilege

where, Hey, I've got this guy that's, that's, that's struggling to figure out who Jesus is,

but he's actually willing to like talk with me. And so I have this opportunity to, to engage

him where I know historically he's kind of been shut down with some others. And so, you

know, love that, uh, told me Jesus too, you know, and oftentimes we, you know, those digital

ministry and both these guys know, like, you don't, don't, don't click that kick out button.

Let, let them go. Let, let the crowd, let the crowd speak into it. The crowd will correct

the situation. You need to care for the individual. And, uh, and so that there's so much opportunity

we can to, to engage and kind of help, which is I've heard so many, so many stories, even

in virtual reality, uh, of where there was a, there was a Satanist that was coming in and

trolling some VR churches. Uh, her, her literal name was, um, oh my gosh, I'm blanking on the

name here. Um, it was, uh, queen, uh, Satan's queen or queen of hell. So something queen of

hell, Alice queen of hell. And, uh, and so literally like family background of Satanists,

uh, and through, uh, relationships that was built, uh, maybe nine months down the road,

she accepted Christ. Uh, and now she's actively serving, uh, in, in several of the VR churches,

actually helping, uh, multiply ministry into, uh, VR chat. So, and it's just, it was, she went

from, uh, you know, Alice queen of hell to like Alice in the palace and just a complete,

um, uh, uh, uh, spiritual change as, as a result of kind of what's happening. And so anyway,

that is such a digression away from where we were, but thank you for even just entertaining

me for a couple of minutes as I kind of opened up myself here to a couple of military guys.

So, so thank you for that. This has been a solid conversation on D church. Um, and you

know, even maybe the troll somehow fits into that. You can kind of wedge that in a listening

audience, however you want. I love this live format. We're going to do this more. And so,

uh, go ahead. Speak to me, sir.

Like you said, this might tie in. I, in Mark chapter five, there's a man who had

thousands of demons, right? He had legion. And, um, and he, what's interesting is he ran

to Jesus as he ran to Jesus and fell down at his feet. And then, then the demon spoke out

and said, you know, please don't mess with us. Right. And so, uh, but what's interesting

is that's a, that's a really clear picture about sometimes what happens to us is that people

who are hurting people who are tormented, they run to church or they're running to Jesus.

And when they get there, the demon speaks out and we get offended by what the demon is saying,

but Jesus saw the man behind the torment. He saw the man behind legion. And so he dealt

with, he was able to separate the two. He dealt with legion. And the next thing you know, the

man is clothed and in his right mind. And I think that's just part of it. And not just him,

but even Peter, right. When, when, when Peter said out of his mouth was, uh, this shall never

happen to you. And Jesus says, Satan, get behind me. Right. He says, Satan, he was able to identify

Satan and distinguish that from who, from who Peter was. And I think the same thing, when we

have these people who come up that there are termed of these trolls or whatever, um, I think we got

to review them through a different lens, um, and just see, ask out who are they? Like I hear what

they're saying. I hear the words coming out. I don't want to respond to the words. I want to

respond to either the hurt, the brokenness, the torment, the whatever that's behind the, open up a

door to the enemy to use these words through their mouths. And I, and so, so it was, so the D church,

yeah, they're going to come, they're going to come hurt. They're going to come broken,

but we can separate what happened to them from who they are, the value that they have as a son or

a daughter of God. And that's, that's game changing. It's game changing as life changing.

And, and I, we see this, the spirit of God, uh, work in miraculous ways in those contexts.

That was incredibly well said. And, and way to actually take a tangent and, and, and tie it.

I'll help you out there, girl.

You're a seminary trained, Hey, you know, that 20 minute, you know, uh, uh, tangent that I just did.

No, we're going to tie it. We're actually gonna make it the main point.

I meant to do that the entire time at that. That was, Hey, Hey gentlemen, thank you very much for,

for jumping on the show. Hey, here's what I'm going to do. Like if, if you are still watching out

there on social, I see we got a number of people on social, uh, we're going to open up the ultra

life platform and we're going to start to engage into some conversations over there. We're going

to open up the lobby mode here in, in, uh, as soon as I wrap up, here's the question I want us to

take away from this. Um, our churches, whether you're a physical church that's doing digital

ministry, a physical church, a digital church, a meta church, you know, the, the environment for

this one does, doesn't matter because all of us have the opportunity to engage, uh, whether a big

church or a small church or a church plant, we all have an opportunity to engage, uh, with, uh,

with the church. Two questions. What are you doing now? And maybe what opportunities, uh, do you need

to engage in? What should you be doing? Where's God leading you to go? And so we're going to wrap

the plane. If anybody's watching on social swing over to the church, digital.alterlive.com. You can

see the link on the video. We'd love to connect with you over there. And if you're in alter live,

as soon as I wrap up, I'll click the button and, uh, we'll swing over into the lobby, uh, and engage

with that. How are you currently viewing the church? If you're listening on podcast, ask yourself this

and talk with your leadership. How are you currently viewing the church? How are you serving the church?

And maybe what opportunities do you have a head to do something different? So for, for Dr. John,

uh, and, uh, and Jared, Jared, thank you for jumping in. This is Jared next week. Uh, and so it's,

it's a one, two punch with that. Love it. Hey, this is Jeff with the church, digital, digital church

network and a bunch of other really cool stuff. Thanks for jumping on the podcast here. We'll see

you next week live. And we do this next, uh, Thursday, uh, 3 PM Eastern y'all have a good day.