EP212: Steven Barr & 9 Non-Tech Pivots Your Church Needs To Consider

When we look for God's image, look past the surface stuff, look past the things that annoy

you, look past the things that offend you, look at the person.

Maybe they're passionate, maybe they're articulate, but there's something about them

that is a reflection of God.

When we find that and acknowledge it to them, like I had somebody one time who was going

off on a political rant, and I didn't even bring up politics, but he was going off on

this political rant, and it was like, if I had hair, it would be blowing backwards.

It was just like, you know, hitting me, and I just looked at him and I said, man, you have

the most amazing God-given passion.

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church, but more than

tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

Is disciple-making possible digitally?

How should we approach the digital mission field?

Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space?

Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this?

Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church plant,

the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church,

digitally and physically.

Our heart?

That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple-making that will revolutionize

your church.

And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed.

All right, hey, we got episode 212 of the Church Digital Podcast.

I'm excited about this podcast.

I'm wearing my Boba Fett t-shirt.

We're talking Disney.

It's going to be great stuff.

By the way, so not a Mando fan, but that's a much different conversation than what we're

going to have here today.

I'm really excited about some of these shifts and the guests that we've got.

I said shifts, S-H-I-F-T-S.

Just want to make sure that was clear coming through the podcast.

No, I don't play that on the podcast.

We're good.

But listen, hey, hey, sneak peek podcast audience.

On Tuesday, April 19th, 2 p.m., we're making some big announcements for the Church Digital,

for Digital Church Network, and for many of you, I think this is going to be a game changer

for your ministry.

So, if you are part of FAM, you're welcome to join us, 2 p.m. Eastern on FAM.

Join in there.

It's fam.digitalchurch.network.

If you are not part of FAM, what are you waiting for?

Jump in there.

The announcement's going to be in FAM, fam.digitalchurch.network, and hear this announcement as it's coming

Tuesday, April 19th, 2 p.m. Eastern.

Good stuff.

We'll make some other noise on social and things.

But if you want to get this sneak peek, the early announcement, you want to hear it right

there, direct on FAM.

Well, I tell you what, I'm excited about today's guest.

We brought him here on the podcast before.

I had the luxury of bringing him in to speak at the Exponential in Orlando, just maybe a

month or so ago at this point.

And to be honest, I brought him in to talk about maybe 10 minutes, and dude ended up talking

for like 30 or 40, and it was powerful, it was meaningful.

And at the end of it, I was like, hey, I want to do a podcast on everything you just said,

because it's so rich of what he was getting into.

And so we're bringing into the conversation, Stephen Barr, who's the leader of Cast Member

Church.

You may remember back from earlier conversations, put the link in the show notes, but he has a

church that literally operates to reach Disney cast members.

That's code word within Disney for employees.

And he's got a number of books.

One's getting ready to come out.

He's in the process of writing another one.

And really, I'm just really interested in digging in to this conversation here as we're

talking.

Well, we'll get into that in a little bit.

But a lot of these shifts of how we as leaders, we as Christians, we as the church need to be

thinking differently.

So, hey, Stephen, man, thanks for jumping on the show again and being part of this.

Thanks, Jeff.

It's great to be here again.

Awesome.

Love it.

So right off the bat, I'm just curious, like this is a contextualization type of thing.

You don't, your title is leader, you know, maybe visionary leader is probably a little

more accurate to what you type typically sounds like you do, but you don't take the title pastor.

Like, I'm just curious, like what's coming to the mindset?

Why do you do that?

Well, first of all, I really don't consider myself to be a pastor.

I'm not really a shepherd, although people will argue that with me.

But I don't feel like one, but that's beside the point.

The reason I chose leader, I was lead pastor for a long time, but I realized that our mission

field, we serve a mission field that does not have a church context.

They don't have a church background.

And so the word pastor can, it can immediately raise flags to certain people.

And so in Disney, the way the structure is there, there are leaders.

And so the easiest way to connect people and help them contextualize what I do is to tell

them that I'm the leader of cast member church.

And they're like, oh, okay.

That makes sense in their Disney speak, so to say.

So yeah, I'm comfortable with that.

I do pastor.

I mean, I'm a, yeah, I'm more of like a visionary catalyst, I guess would be the real thing.

But hey, leader covers it all.

So I just stick with that.

That's great.

And you can go back, like there's, there's a whole conversation that I had with, with

Steven talking about cast member church and an older episode links in the show notes.

But we went into great detail talking about the idea of operating a digital church, a discipleship

movement that's literally reaching international as so many of these, these employees are, are

scattered across the planet.

And so some really fascinating stories.

We dig in deeply into the context of, of doing a church aimed specifically at a Disney cast

member, at former Disney cast members, at Disney employees, and kind of what that, that

balance is.

And you can even like, look at the art, the, uh, the logo and it like, looks like a Mickey

mouse, kind of the hidden Mickey head with the ears.

And, and like, there's all sorts of contextualizations that, that you go through.

But for this conversation, really what, uh, well, actually, you know what, Steven, let's

just give you the opportunity up front.

You're writing, um, you wrote a book, Kingdom Influence, you're, you're, you're working right

now on a second book, Irresistible.

Why don't you talk a little bit about Kingdom Influence and then also set up the Irresistible

book.

Let's just talk about the books right up front.

Well, thank you.

Um, Kingdom Influence is a book that I've been writing for, well, I've been writing it for

10 years, to be honest with you, but, uh, cause that's how long cast member churches

existed.

But we finally got to the point, uh, about a year ago where we, we kind of started realizing

we know what we're doing, although that's a dangerous thing to say, because as soon as

you think you know what you're doing, everything changes.

But, um, but we just, we just realized that, um, the church in general, capital C church,

really doesn't have a problem with articulating the gospel.

Uh, the problem we have is we don't have the humility to live the gospel in such a way that

it brings credibility to the gospel.

And so what we discovered is evangelism is certainly articulating the gospel, but it's

about living it out in such a way that it makes it contagious and that people want to

be around.

They want to know more.

And, you know, when I, when we first started cast member church, we, we came at it with

traditional ways, approaches, attractional type stuff and nothing, nothing simply because,

well, part of the reason is because the Disney is the show.

You can't, you can't out Disney, Disney, but, um, but we also realized that, uh, the one

thing that Disney couldn't offer cast members was relationship.

And I've learned in talking to hundreds of pastors that we're just not good at it.

We're not good at relationship because it's messy.

It's inconvenient.

And we like, as, and I've learned this from my European cast members, Americans like the

quick fix.

We like the quick win.

And the problem is, is leading someone to Jesus is something that moves at what I call

the pace of grace.

It's very slow.

And it's, it takes time.

It takes investment, but it is worth it.

And so I wrote a book that simply simplified, this is what we can do.

This is what we can learn to do really well.

And we have identified three keys, proven, proven keys that reveal Jesus in a skeptical and

suspicious world.

And so by going through this book, you'll learn these keys.

You'll learn how to apply them.

And you'll discover that wherever you go, whether it's the grocery store, the car line at the

school, wherever you are, you have an opportunity to reveal Jesus in a way that is not weird, that

is not uncomfortable, and yet is appealing to the people that you are spending time with.

So that book comes out in just a few weeks.

So you can look for that kingdom influence on Amazon.

And I think that we will definitely, I'll be making a lot of noise about that when that

comes out because I'm excited about that and even highlighting some of the things that you're

doing.

Like, I just, I think that's, that's incredible.

Now let's, let's pivot here because I, you know, and I knew you as kingdom influence.

I bring you into Orlando and, and, and, and I wanted you to speak about the uniqueness of,

you know, King, your church of what you're doing through Disney cast member.

And instead you went on a, you know, I don't want to say diatribe because it was incredibly

helpful, but it was this, this long monologue on these pivots.

And, and, and as you talked about it, I was like, oh my gosh, like, this is, this is great.

And you're like, oh yeah, by the way, I'm writing a book on this.

So I was like, you haven't even published your first one.

You're writing a second one.

Like, I mean, you're like the, the, the modern version of Max Lucado here, just spitting

him out.

But I just, I wanted to really highlight these nine influences, these nine shifts, these

pivots that, that are happening in, in context.

So maybe set the stage here a little bit.

Let's talk about this, this new book, this new idea.

You know, a working title, Irresistible, Shaping a Culture of Kingdom Influence in a Skeptical

and a Suspicious World.

So what, where did this idea come from?

Well, it came from the first book I just talked about.

Kingdom Influence is the, is kind of the everyday man's book to learn how to, to be contagious

in a skeptical society.

But then I started realizing that, you know, the church is kind of over, is sitting over

here in one place.

And we as Cast Member Church have found a different way of doing ministry.

And I realized that there were pivots that were going to have to happen if you're going

to lead a community that's going to have a kingdom influence.

And so we just started identifying things that, I mean, I could have written a hundred pivots

that need, need to happen.

But we focused on the ones that make a church irresistible, that makes the, that actually

Christians could, can be irresistible people.

We don't have to turn the world off.

We don't have to be known as hypocrites and judgmental and all that.

We actually have something incredible called the good news.

And if we're living it, uh, and by making these pivots, we're going to actually, by being

irresistible, drawing people closer to Jesus.

So we identified nine pivots, uh, over, over the last 10 years.

And again, these are proven.

These aren't just theory.

These are things that we have, have put into practice and we've seen results.

And, um, so yeah, that's, that's kind of what it comes down to.

But we realized that as I would share these pivots with people, um, there was a lot of

hesitation because, um, it's a paradigm shift.

It is a big paradigm shift.

Just, just as you well know that we're, we're looking at paradigm shifts just over the last

couple of years that churches have to take an honest look at.

And regardless of whether they're, they're physical or digital or fidgetal or, or any of

that, there's some heart stuff behind all of that, that we're going to have to shift.

And, um, and so we came down to these nine things, but the first thing I realized is there's

that question that Jesus asked, uh, the, um, the, the paralytic at the pool of Bethesda.

And he said, do you want to get well?

And of course the, you know, and the, and the, he, and that man responded the way a lot of

churches do.

Well, you don't understand.

We've got this, we've got this, we've got all these other things.

And it's like, wait a minute.

That's not the question Jesus is asking.

He's asking, do you want to get well?

And so if a church is going, wait a minute, we're not contagious in this community.

We are not irresistible among skeptical, suspicious, cynical people.

How can we do that?

That's where the nine pivots were born.

I know the word pivot is even scary, or not scary, but it's, it's been over, it's been

overused.

It's been weighted.

I say the word pivot.

I say the word shift and, and, you know, pastor's eyes glaze over at this point, this desire

to go back to, to, you know, the way, the way that it was.

But as, as we talk through this, hopefully we're recognizing, Hey, this isn't, this isn't

like techno lot.

This isn't technology.

This isn't like a technological jerk, uh, jump.

We're not talking metaverse.

We're not talking like, this is a very practical approach, like almost a, a, a introspective

soul examining approach to how we do ministry.

And maybe this is even an opportunity for, for some of you that are listening this to, to

be introspective in your own ministries and how, uh, the, the people in your church view

you, view your ministry.

An interesting stat.

And actually, Stephen, I don't know that you know this one.

This actually came out Barna, maybe a month or so ago, uh, 57% of people that are active

within their church, strongly trust church leadership.

Um, now that's, that's not a bad stat.

Uh, the reciprocal is a little scary to me.

43% of people that are actively involved in church do not strongly trust church leadership.

Now, I mean, there's different tiers.

There's, yeah, there's strongly trust.

There's somewhat, and I don't know what the different levels were, but if we're talking

about the pastor, the senior leadership of church that is designed to lead people spiritually,

the fact that those people don't strongly trust is a little scary.

And so I think as we're looking at some of these shifts, this is an opportunity for, for

all of us to maybe stop and examine, um, how we fit.

Maybe there's some things that, that we're strong at.

Maybe there's some things that we're weak at and need to adjust.

So, hey, let's, let's kick this off.

Let's, you know, I've got the list in front of me because, hey, I'm, I'm, I'm cool like

that.

Stephen was great to share it.

Uh, but let's, let's go through some of this and see where we get.

So number one here, uh, I've got mission over me.

So, uh, mission over me, tell, tell me a little bit about that one, Stephen.

Well, that's, I mean, that's the, that's kind of the high hurdle.

We've got to get that one out of the way first because it's such a paradigm shift.

And, um, it really comes down to, you know, there's two scriptures that I rely on when it

comes to that.

One is where Jesus said, um, take up your cross, take up your cross, which means, uh, we know

what that looks like.

Um, uh, just being here on Good Friday, we know what that looks like.

Uh, it means surrender.

It means giving up what, what Jesus prayed in the garden of Gethsemane, not my will, but

yours be done.

So there's a mission that is in front of us.

And it's so easy as leaders to focus on the people in our congregation that are saying, well,

I want this, I want this.

And if I don't get this and I'm going to go somewhere else.

And of course, that's a culture of consumerism.

If we feed that almost like a buffet, we put a buffet out as, you know, try to please

everybody.

We end up missing the mission.

And so we've got to start talking about the hard pivot of, look, this is not about you.

Yes, the church exists, you know, for, to equip you, to empower you, to give you a family

and all, but it's really about moving out and being empowered to be salt and light in the

world around us.

And so that's kind of like, that's the first one.

We can't even get into the other eight pivots if we can't get past mission over me.

And I'm not saying that your needs aren't important.

I'm just simply saying that we need to shift over to mission over me.

Every one of these that pivots, I'm not saying that the one that we're shifting from is bad.

I'm just saying that we focus on that too much and we need to make the shift.

So mission obviously is at the top of the list.

That's well said.

I used to have a bumper sticker and actually I used to run a Christian bookstore.

I used to run a clothing store called C2A, like I don't get too deep in the weeds here,

but it was a bumper sticker and it was John 330.

And it's, you know, it's not about me.

And just like having that as we're talking about, it's more about the mission.

It's more about being humble in those moments.

Like that just resonates so strongly, you know, even a couple of decades later.

So number one, mission over me.

What well said there.

Number two, this is interesting.

Human beings over labels.

Human beings over labels.

Talk to me about this one.

All right.

Well, that's, this one's kind of obvious, especially in the age of social media.

We put people into categories immediately.

When we meet somebody, we find out if they're with us or against us,

if they're left or if they're right, if they're vaxxed or unvaxxed, if they're,

I mean, we immediately classify people.

And even to the point where, are you Baptist or are you Pentecostal?

Are you, and, and it's a human thing to do.

We, we categorize people, but we, because of those labels, we immediately are prejudiced.

We immediately are prejudiced by our own, our own thinking.

And I'm looking at Jesus and I'm going, he treated every person like a human being.

I mean, the Samaritan, uh, the good, the parable of the good Samaritan is a perfect example.

But I, there's a great little story that takes place in World War I.

And it's called the, the, the Christmas, the famous Christmas day truce, where Germans were fighting the French and the English.

And on Christmas day, they agreed to a truce and they started popping their heads above the trenches.

And long story short, they kind of came out and talked to each other.

There was a soccer ball being kicked around.

They were showing pictures of their families.

And one of the soldiers commented on the fact that when the truce was over, he realized he wasn't facing an enemy.

He was facing himself.

And when we start to see people as human beings made in the image of God, regardless of what they believe, regardless if they offend you or what, they are made in the image of God.

We have to start there.

And when we do, it's amazing how we can discover what I call the essence of a person.

It's that reflection of God.

And that's where we can start.

But we've got to stop categorizing.

We've got, we have to stop labeling people and just simply look at them as human beings created by God.

How is that empowered?

Let's just follow up on that.

How, how is this human beings over labels?

I mean, you're literally Disney cast member church.

You're working with people, all sorts of people all over the country, all over the planet, different slices of life.

How does a human being approach, how does that help you maybe reach some of your diversified audience?

Like, I would imagine you're dealing with all sorts of different labels, right?

And so, like, what does that look like practically for you?

I have, you know, at my dining room table, every perspective and persuasion has sat there.

And we've had over 1,200 Disney cast members sit at our dining room table and encounter Jesus.

And the thing is, is when we look for the, I call it the essence.

Essence is recognizing the image of God.

When we look for God's image, look past, look past the surface stuff.

Look past the things that annoy you.

Look past the things that offend you.

Look at the person.

Maybe they're passionate.

Maybe they're articulate.

But there's something about them that is a reflection of God.

When we find that and acknowledge it to them.

Like, I had somebody one time who was going off on a political rant.

And I didn't even bring up politics, but he was going off on this political rant.

And it was like, if I had hair, it would be blowing backwards.

It was just like, you know, hitting me.

And I just looked at him and I said, man, you have the most amazing God-given passion.

And he just stopped.

And he goes, oh, oh, wow.

Well, thanks.

It's acknowledging the image of God in a person.

I have never had a person, regardless of what they believe about God or don't believe about God,

be offended that I acknowledged God's image in them by something that was apparent.

That changes everything because now that person feels valued.

That person feels valued.

And value is really the first step in building a relationship that says, you actually, you matter to me.

Value is the first step in building relationships.

I mean, like, that's the takeaway quote.

That's the pull-out quote right there.

That was well said with that one.

All right, number three.

I need to write that down.

Okay, go ahead.

It's going to be online.

Some people are going to listen to it.

So we'll share.

You can pull it from there.

That's good.

That's the byline of your book, right?

We will work that in.

Number three is beautiful.

Number three, the one over the crowd.

The one over the crowd.

So what about this?

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Well, this is kind of obvious.

We, our metrics in our churches are based on crowds.

Buildings, budgets, butts, and seats.

And so we've always figured the bigger, the better.

And again, I'm not against the crowd.

Jesus taught the crowds.

But Jesus did also some of the most amazing stuff in scripture one-on-one.

Woman at the well.

The woman with the issue of bleeding.

Zacchaeus.

Matthew.

Nicodemus.

It's these one-on-one conversations that really, where we see, oh, the character of Jesus on display.

And I like to tell the story.

There's this great little, it's on YouTube somewhere, but the 80s band Journey, of course, were huge in the 80s.

They're kind of one of the quintessential bands of the 80s.

And they tell the story about, they were at the peak of their success, and they had an album about ready to come out.

And they had heard about this little boy in the hospital that had cancer.

And his dream was to hear the next album.

And so they all went to his hospital room, and they brought a Walkman, 80s.

They brought a Walkman and had a cassette tape of their soon-to-be-released album.

No one had heard it except the guys in the band.

And they put it on, and the young little boy put the headphones on, and they all stood around his bed and watched him listen to this album.

And he died the next day.

And the guys in Journey, they will weep when they tell this story.

But Journey, for them, the stadiums didn't matter.

It was the one.

It was the one person.

And they felt like the album has done its job.

It's already done its job.

And I think we, as the church, we tend to, especially pastors, and I'm going to make fun because I are one, but in a general sense.

But we think the crowd is it.

That's the pinnacle of success.

But it's not.

We've discovered in Cast Member Church, it's sitting around a table at Starbucks over coffee, talking about the real things of life, going back and forth.

And someone saying, you know, I'm not sure I believe that.

Oh, okay.

Well, tell me why.

Tell me why.

Rather than, and really looking at who they are, what their needs are.

And that doesn't happen in a large room.

That doesn't happen in rows.

It happens.

Jeff, even like this, you and I, one-on-one, even though there's people listening in, it's one-on-one.

This is where Jesus really does his best work.

And as we talk a lot about digital churches, and you and I have had this conversation, it's not macro, it's not megaphone, it's not yelling to crowds.

In many ways, it's having these small conversations, these one-on-one, one-on-three, one-on-four, almost more as a whisper.

And what's fascinating is actually, Stephen, you even said it here in this conversation today, where it's like, I've invited 1,200 people.

1,200 people have sat at my table.

And so that's not a 1,200-person table.

At least I'm assuming you don't live in a house that big.

It's probably a table of four, six, maybe eight, and it's having small conversations.

And as we're wanting to be more effective in ministry, it's not growing into massive numbers that takes us beyond what we're capable of resourcing and discipling and multiplying.

A friend of mine, Jim Tomberlin, has said, hey, we need to grow our church, not as big as possible, but grow to the point where it can multiply, multiply it,

and then grow again some more.

And it's about having these small conversations that allow us to get to the place of multiplying and seeing that generational growth happen.

And that's also looking at when we have the conversations with the one, that's where we're also recognizing the image of God.

That's all part of that essence thing.

That doesn't happen in a crowd.

It's hard to see the image of God on 1,000 people or even 75.

It's when we focus on the one and we're listening and we're paying attention and we have one ear on the conversation and one ear on the Holy Spirit.

And that's when that stuff starts to happen.

And it's beautiful, but it takes time.

And that's why it's a pivot.

That's beautiful.

The one over the crowd.

Moving on, number four, acceptance over change.

Acceptance over change.

This is another good one, too.

Yeah, this is a controversial one because people think that I'm getting into some dangerous waters here.

But I'm going to make it real simple.

Scripture says, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

And so when we think about it, when I was at my worst, Jesus goes, I'm going to make you acceptable.

That blows my mind.

That absolutely blows my mind.

And we have had this tendency to want people to change before we accept them.

Acceptance doesn't mean endorsement.

It doesn't mean you're celebrating.

It just means that you meet them where they are.

And I think a perfect example of that real quickly is when we look at the woman caught in adultery.

And Jesus, we know what Jesus did, the writing in the sand and the things he said.

But pay attention to the order that he did those things.

The first thing he did was he dealt with the sins of the accusers.

Number two is he forgave the woman.

And number three, he told her to change the direction of her life.

The problem is, is the church, look at social media, reverses it.

Stop sinning, then I'll forgive you, and maybe I'll deal with my own stuff.

And we've got to get back to Jesus' way where he meets a person where they are.

And we have found that by just accepting a person in their brokenness,

even if they don't think they're broken,

but getting them to a place where they're attracted to be with us,

where they find this, dare I say, irresistibility of who we are,

that Jesus is going to do amazing things.

But he's not going to do it if I'm pointing a finger in your face.

And I'm not just talking about certain communities.

I'm talking about everybody.

We've got to start understanding that Jesus has already done the heavy lifting.

We get to share the message and then let him pick up the heavy lifting again as we draw people close.

You know, that's a beautiful pivot.

That's a beautiful opportunity for us as the church to maybe reexamine what we're doing.

And once again, that has absolutely nothing to do with technology.

It's measurable.

You can measure that.

That's one of the things that we always say about, well, how do you measure this stuff?

Hey, listen, are you seeing people be more accepting?

Are you seeing them hang out with people that they normally wouldn't hang out with?

That is measurable.

And so these are things that we can kind of take the temperature on how these pivots are working.

Totally, totally.

Number five, empathy over explanations.

Empathy over explanations.

Great story.

He's smiling.

He's got a big grin thinking about this one.

So yeah, go ahead.

I love the stories that come with these.

There was a woman who had a brain condition that would cause her to just drop, just collapse.

And one day she was in a grocery store and that happened.

She just collapsed.

And she said that people immediately came to her aid and tried picking her up.

And she says, the problem is with my condition, my brain wasn't ready to stand up.

And she said, adults are very uncomfortable with seeing someone vulnerable laying on the

floor, especially an adult.

And she said, they were so quick to pick me up, but what I needed was for someone to get

down on the floor with me.

And I think what happens is we as a church are so quick to offer explanations.

Read this book.

Listen to this song.

Here's the scripture.

And we offer quick fixes, going back to that, what I was saying earlier, these quick fixes

that really what Jesus is wanting us to do, and he did it at Lazarus's tomb, Jesus wept,

is to get down on the ground with people, to get into their mess and just sit with them and go,

this doesn't make sense.

There is no explanation.

You know, and just weep with them or hurt with them or even in their anger, carry that burden

of anger with them.

Let them know they're not alone.

And Jesus is acquainted with every bit of our suffering.

And he did that by choice.

So we have to be willing to stop trying to fix everything.

We're not, Jesus does, there's nothing in scripture that says we're called to fix anybody.

We're just supposed to introduce them to the one who can.

So that happens by getting down on the ground and being willing to hurt, to be willing to

say, no, it's not fair.

Yes, I can understand why you're angry at God.

I can understand, and really take on their pain, take on whatever it is they're feeling.

Again, that comes out of value, but it also starts to build trust because it says, we can

even say, I understand, maybe we, I actually, let me rephrase that.

We may not be able to understand, but we want to understand, help me understand what you're

going through.

And that, that builds trust and we've got to stop, we've got to start empathizing more

and stop just simply saying, read this, listen to this, you know, and walk away.

So, so good.

Let me ask you this, just a follow-up on that one.

So you're, you're operating digital, physical, you're kind of all over the space.

What, what, what is that?

What is actually like, it's a beautiful story.

Get down on the ground with the person, you know, and, and, and be in that uncomfortable

spot with them, you know, often talk about how digital ministry actually get a lot more

dirty than you do in physical ministry.

And so give me, give me an example.

I mean, I don't need names or anything like that, but, but what, what are some examples

of, of how you've done this through cast members?

It can be as simple as someone, someone being reprimanded for something they didn't do.

And they want to, and they're angry.

They're angry at the person that got them in trouble.

They're angry about, um, this isn't fair and there's nothing they can do about it.

And, you know, you could say, well, here's your, here's your chance to be Jesus and, and,

and, you know, turn the other cheek and all that.

That's all good, but we got to get through, we got to get with, actually understand where

they're coming from.

They have felt betrayed.

They have felt, they have felt violated.

So in a, in a sense.

And so we need to embrace that.

There's other things that we've, you know, we've seen, um, I've had cast members that

have lost family members, uh, uh, uh, a cast member who lost her father.

Um, long story short, she was separated from her father because she was here at Disney and

he was in another country.

She, uh, COVID shut down Disney.

She went home.

She had to quarantine.

She couldn't see her dad.

Um, and she saw him for one day after her quarantine and he died and she was just utterly dead.

Who wouldn't be utterly devastated.

And so there is no, I understand or, or a scripture quote or anything like that.

It's just like, I am so sorry.

I, I, I, it doesn't make sense.

And, and not, not just offering an explanation.

I'm going to be honest with you in doing this.

I, the majority of the time I don't have an explanation.

Life doesn't, life doesn't make sense.

I mean, I can, I can, I can refer to scripture and point out those things.

But when I look at things through the eyes of the world, that's why it's hopeless.

And so to be able to embrace that hopelessness and understand where they're coming from,

I can begin to understand how Jesus wants to work in their lives.

But I have to, I, I need to feel what they're feeling.

And, and that I can't do it that I can't do that from an arm's distance.

It's interesting, you know, you're using even the physical example of arm's distance in digital context where there is no arms.

But that's, it's, it's embracing you using these digital tools.

And some would say, you can't do that digitally.

Like, it's, it's amazing to me.

It's still the number of people that are, that are like, but it's not real.

Oh my gosh.

Oh my gosh.

That's a whole other conversation.

Let's, let's, let's stay positive with this one.

I mean, you did say, and I love what you said and, and the idea of we, we can be more real digitally than, than physically.

And that is absolutely true.

We were doing Zoom before the world knew about Zoom.

We, we were doing, cause we were, we had to figure out how to be a global church.

And I found, this is amazing to me.

I found that looking at a screen, talking like you and I are talking, what people opened up more than sitting across from a table.

And I, and I, and I, no one can convince me otherwise, cause this is based on my experience.

Now, some people, some people don't have that experience.

Some people don't, aren't comfortable with it.

That's fine.

But don't say that it's, it's, no one can just acknowledge that you're not wired that way.

Some people can, a lot of people can.

Anyway, that's a, that's a rabbit trail for another show.

Moving on here.

Number six, this is, this is going to be a rabbit trail.

Conversations over teaching.

Conversations over, over teaching.

Go for it.

Yeah.

Well, that, that piggybacks empathy over explanations.

I, you know, I, I seldom remember sermons after about five or six weeks.

But I remember conversations.

I, it's, there's just something about, uh, when I'm talking to somebody at my dining room table and we're talking about a life thing, something that's going on and it goes back and forth.

It's, it's, it's, it's, you, it's almost like each one is a shovel that digs a little deeper.

Each, each time somebody says something, it's, you're digging a little deeper and conversations stir up amazing things about what's going on inside a person.

But if, if we're teaching, that's one sided.

That's like, when I think of teaching, I think of lecture style.

And I know you can teach other ways, you know, life lessons, but, but by and large, what we need to do is we have got to learn to listen.

It's, we have got to, if the Holy Spirit is going to open our ears and our eyes to hear and see what he wants to do, it's going to be by listening to the other person and finding out what's going on behind what they're talking about.

And I've just found the more I learn about a person, the more I love them.

And, and we've got to stop thinking one sided, going back to explanations or simply trying to teach somebody something.

I, I learn from experience and I learn in conversations and I, I learn different perspectives that I might not agree with, but I totally get where they're coming from.

And that's a huge piece of the pie.

Yeah, platforming as in standing on a soapbox and one way conversations does not work in 2022.

And the more that we can dialogue, people will not listen to you until you listen to them.

You know, that almost gets over the human beings, over labels, you know, so much of what you're, it's all baked in into that.

We don't want to come across a salesman.

And that's, and that is, and again, I work with thousands of cast members.

That's how we're perceived.

We're perceived as, as sleazy salesmen.

And I, and I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, their words, not mine, but that's the perception.

And we have to remember for them, that's real.

And so we have to figure out how to shift away, shift away from that perception.

And part of that is simply having conversations and saying, tell me, tell me about you.

Tell me, tell me about where you're coming from on this.

And it opens up doors.

Moving on, risk.

Oh, this is a big one.

Risk over reputation.

This is the challenge for many, risk over reputation.

Yeah.

Double-edged sword because it cuts two different ways.

There is the, the individual reputation where we see Jesus not caring at all about what people thought.

He ate with who he wanted to eat with.

He ate with whoever the father led him to, tax collectors, prostitutes.

He, he hung out with people that, that religious people would not condone.

And so, but he never worried about his reputation.

It was, it was about the mission, mission over me, going back to the original one.

On the other hand, churches also wrestle with this too.

We don't want to take the risk because what if we fail?

What if this doesn't work?

And we've got to get past that because so much of what Jesus is calling us to do will not make sense in the human terms.

It has to be done with him.

And, but, but if we don't take the risk, well, we don't need him.

I mean, let's, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm oversimplifying and maybe being a little dramatic.

But the fact is, is we take the risks that we think are manageable.

And I just don't see Jesus doing that to his disciples.

I see him, you know, sending them out, sending out the 72.

Oh, by the way, don't take anything with you.

Now, that's not a good strategy, Jesus.

We, you know, I kind of need this and I need that, you know, and, and Jesus is kind of going,

no, I'm going to show you what it means to depend on my father.

And I think we've got to get past what people think about us.

Whether it's individually or as a church.

Yeah.

And even in that, there's a little bit of, of control, right?

Where it's, it's, Hey, I'm, I'm trying to control that situation.

I'm, I'm trying to plan.

I'm trying to organize.

I'm trying to strategize far beyond.

And it's, it's like, we've strategized the Holy Spirit out of the conversation.

We, we, we're, we're limiting we ourselves unintentionally by not, by not making Jesus first

in some of these conversations and instead trying to, to control it out.

Um, we, yeah, there is, we've, we've taken the risk out of it, which actually I think limits

what God can do through us.

Yeah.

I had a conversation with a pastor several years ago and we were talking about, uh, I didn't

have these pivots yet, but we were talking about a lot of these things.

And he sat there and he looked at me and he said, Stephen, I agree with you 100%.

These are things that we need to do in our church.

But if we do that, if I try to do them, I will lose my job.

And I'm going, you know, it was, it was, there was a point where you go, I don't know how

to respond to that.

Maybe you don't want that job.

I'll say it.

I'm just.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Well, that's it.

That's it.

It's kind of like, are we fearing man?

Are we fearing, are we fearing losing our comfort, our credibility and our control more than actually

embracing the adventure God actually wants us to live?

That's so hard.

I, I, I totally, you know, I, I, I respect the pastors in that situation.

I respect those out there listening to this conversation right now.

It's, it's, it's hard to, to let go and to put faith, but that's why it's faith.

I mean, really examine what, what are you putting your faith in, in those moments and this risk

over reputation.

This is the one I think that stings me the most.

Yeah.

Oh, me too.

Me too.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Totally.

Number eight here, moving on love over conditions, love over conditions.

Unpack this one.

Yeah.

These just get, you know, I'm, as we're going through them, I'm like, wow, these just get

harder and harder.

But, you know, it's so funny.

We are so, everyone has heard this.

I love you, but I love you, but, and the, the, the perfect love that Jesus talks about

in scripture never says that, never says that that love, love has no butts, as I like to

say.

And, and the idea is, is, and I understand why this one is so hard because we as human

beings do not understand something that without condition, you know, because we live in a

world where everything is finite.

I mean, even, you know, as these bodies that we live in are finite, if, if, you know, even

if, if, if you know Jesus and you know, you're going to heaven, there's still this finality

of what we know is going to pass away.

And so, everything has this condition and it's very hard to say love over conditions because

we, we just put a condition on everything.

It's like labels.

We can't help it, but we have, it's counterintuitive.

But the thing is, is Jesus is calling us to a counterintuitive lifestyle.

He's calling us to a way of loving, even, you know, agape love, the, the Greek word that,

that is the Bible likes to use most about love is a love that chooses.

It's not based on feelings or butterflies or, or any of that stuff.

It's a love that chooses to love even when love isn't returned.

And I think, um, I wrote this in, in my, the book that's coming out that love shine, perfect

love shines brightest when it's rejected.

And, and we have to be willing to step across that line and say, I will love you no matter

what, because that is perfect love.

And so a great example, uh, is Jesus ate with Judas at the, at the last supper.

Jesus, I mean, here's a, here's a person who's going to betray Jesus.

It's going to put, that sets everything in motion and Jesus eats with him and treats him just

like he treats all the other disciples in that moment.

No, uh, knowing, knowing.

And, and so there's this, Jesus loved Judas to the end, to the end.

And, and that just blows my, in fact, I'm getting, getting emotional just thinking about

it.

That's like, that means he loves me to the end.

It means no matter what happens in my life, no matter what I do, Jesus says, I love you

no matter what.

And how, how, what confidence that gives us, what peace that gives us.

I mean, to pick every word, every adjective you want to pick.

It's amazing.

That's why it's good news.

And that's why we should be a picture of that good news as well.

That that's beautiful.

That's heartfelt.

That ties in so much with that acceptance over change as well, right?

Where we're, where we're loving all, uh, regardless of, of, of the conditions where we're accepting

them over, over the change and we're getting that priority in place where we need, we need

to love before that change rather than expecting the change first.

And that, and that, and that what dictates the love, like this is, this is just beautiful.

All this fits together, which actually lands us right here at number nine here, uh, Jesus

over everything.

So, I mean, obviously this is baked into all of it.

Uh, but, but, but let's, let's land the plane on this one.

Jesus over everything.

Let's get, tell me your heart here.

I saved the best for last, you know, uh, it comes down to this.

Jesus wins.

I mean, it's like whatever we're doing, whatever decisions we need to make, Jesus wins.

There's no discussion.

Uh, we just look at who Jesus is and how he responds.

And that's, that's how it works.

There's so much discussion goes, well, should we, you know, we don't know if this or that

look, look, look at Jesus, look at what Jesus did.

Look at what Jesus did with the woman caught in adultery.

Look at what Jesus did to Judas, with Judas.

Look what Jesus did with Nicodemus.

Look, Jesus wins.

There's no discussion.

And so, uh, it's almost like the exclamation point at the end of the sentence that just says,

look, Jesus over everything.

This is not that hard.

It's, it's not hard to, to recognize that it's hard to live out.

But as, because Jesus is over everything, every one of these pivots are pivots that we

can make that allows Jesus to exercise what he wants to do through us from the beginning,

to be irresistible, to be contagious, to be a church that people look at and go, wow,

there is something different about them.

I need to know more.

You know, it talks about how in the book of Acts, the church, they added to their numbers

daily.

That church was irresistible.

There was something going on and, and they couldn't stop it.

It was, it was growing before the, before the, um, uh, the persecution and even after the

persecution, it didn't stop it.

The church was irresistible.

And it's, I believe this is a time for us in this day and age, no better time than for

us to become people that are irresistible, pointing to the irresistible savior.

And each one of these pivots will help us accomplish that.

Awesome.

This has been so good.

It's been a great time.

All of these, these nine pivots, the nine opportunities for us as the church to self-examine,

to look at what we're doing.

And maybe there's something within our DNA, within, within our processes, within our policies.

Do we see this within our volunteers?

Do we see this within our staff, our leaders?

Uh, and let's start to, to examine, uh, once again, the majority of these have nothing to

do with, with technology or embracing, but it's much more about how we are, are being

the church in this 2022 post pandemic post, uh, some just the cultural shifts of where we

are.

And so, uh, sir, I want to thank you for the time here, just even as, as we're coming in.

And so I appreciate this.

Um, once again, Kingdom Influence is going to be hitting, uh, the, the bookshelves, amazon.com,

as well as your, are local Christian bookstores still around?

I don't, I don't, should maybe, maybe a couple.

I used to own one back in the day, but I don't, I don't see them around too much more, but

you know, wherever you buy those, those physical books are, I'm sure you can get on Kindle

as well.

But, uh, so Kingdom Influence, look for that, uh, in the, in the coming days.

Uh, Stephen, as we're landing a plane here, any closing thoughts?

No, I just want to, I just want everybody to know that these pivots,

are doable.

It starts, and it starts with me.

It starts with you.

Uh, we can't teach what we aren't living.

And so the best place to start is not looking at this through the lens of our leadership.

We need to look at it through the lens of our own learning.

And if we can start there, please know that your example will be the best teacher.

I know that from experience.

Awesome.

I totally want to quote Michael Jackson's man in the mirror right now, but I'll let you

guys Google that and you can pull those lyrics up and find the, uh, the parallel.

It'll be beautiful.

Hey, so we're going to land a plane here.

Stephen, man, thank you for jumping into this conversation and walking through your pivots.

Kingdom Influence, uh, coming soon.

Irresistible.

Uh, looking forward to seeing your deep dive on this, which is incredibly relevant, uh,

in, in today's, uh, culture.

And so it's going to be great, but we're going to land the plane.

Thank you for what you're doing with, um, with the books.

Thank you for what you're doing with, um, with Disney cast member church and maybe looking

at the world differently through that, but we're done.

So, Hey, we're going to land the plane.

Thank you, Stephen.

For Stephen, this is Jeff with the church digital digital church network and a bunch of other

fun stuff.

Thanks for jumping on the podcast here and we'll see you next time, uh, here on the show.

Y'all have a good day.