EP215: Tyler Sansom & Influencers as Digital Missionaries

The goal is to go from like a large top-end funnel where it's just like creating content

down to a communal relationship. So getting to know the people you're influencing on a personal

level and then introducing them to Jesus and then introducing them to in-person community

somewhere. It doesn't have to be our church. We call it Church Anywhere for a reason. It doesn't

have to be First Capital. It could be wherever as long as they're in community. Welcome to the

Church Digital podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations

within the church. But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. Is

disciple-making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field? Can

a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse fit

into all this? Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church

plant. The Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying

church, digitally and physically. Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound

focus on disciple-making that will revolutionize your church. And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed.

All right. Hey, welcome to episode 215. Hey, it's Jeff with the Church Digital podcast, the Church

Digital, Digital Church Network. So, so much fun stuff here. And I'm excited about this podcast.

This person we've got coming up here, this may actually be the most podcasted person here

at the Church Digital. It means that he's been on more than anybody else. By the way, before

we get even into the podcast, if you've not joined FAM, Digital Church Network's online community called

FAM, I would love to invite you to come be a part of that. Check out the website, digitalchurch.network

slash join FAM. We're almost up to 500 people in the community. And what's awesome is it's centered

around people that are excited about digital church, digital discipleship, metaverse church,

innovation, doing something different in context and confines of the church. And really the heart of it

is to help people do what they want to do, get them connected into community, get them connected

into support, into trainings, and ultimately into accountability to help them accomplish the ministry.

We're working with established churches. We're working with church planters. We're working with people

that are just normal people that want to do something for the kingdom with their, with their skill

sets and their dreams. And so check this out at digitalchurch.network slash join FAM. And we'll

go from there. So, Hey, but let's, let's get back to this conversation here with, with my guest now

lead pastor, a first capital Christian in Cordon, Indiana. Tyler Sansom is joining us here on the

podcast. Hey Tyler, how are you doing, man?

I am good, man. I am hanging out in Florida this week. So it's very relaxing.

Yeah. I want to say of the podcast that I've done with you, there's at least two of them

that I've managed to snag you on when you're on vacation. And so first off, I want to apologize

to your wife. If I had known that you were on vacation, I would not have scheduled this podcast

for this week. So let's, let's acknowledge that right now. Sarah, I'm sorry. Uh, but thanks for

jumping on the podcast, even on vacation in sunny Orlando, Florida. How are you at Disney? What are you

doing? No, I am at the international Christian film festival. Um, we are about to start principal

photography on our next first capital film. And this is a nice way to connect with some people,

maybe get some PAs, that kind of thing while I'm down here. So that's the hope.

Very cool. So this will be the third, fourth movie?

Third.

Third.

Wow. I feel like that's a corner, a conversation completely unto itself as, as we're trying to,

to like a church that's doing a medium sized church in corn, Indiana, that's doing a really

successful ministry. That's really engaged in digital. That's creating films. I mean, it's the

reason I love first capital. They're literally the church that doesn't know they shouldn't be doing

these things and yet they, they still are doing it. So, um, Hey, listen, I'm with this conversation

here. I'm excited. I want to hit on a couple topics. Um, you know, one, I definitely, I want to talk

about you. I want to talk about digital discipleship. Oh no, I want to talk about being a digital,

digital discipleship is part of it, but I want to talk about digital missionaries. And I know that

you guys have been doing some work through first capital on that. And so we'll get into that

here in a little bit, but right off the bat, congratulations, lead pastor, sir. Since the

last time you've been on, what was it mid January, you, you came on board as the lead pastor of first

capital Christian. So talk to me a little bit here about maybe what that role is and what that

experience is and how you've kind of grown through the system to now being lead pastor of a physical

church. That's also doing digital very well. Yes, definitely a different, a different pathway

than most people take to becoming a lead pastor. I studied, um, I studied film and audio engineering

in college and then went back to school for, um, social media marketing, digital communications.

So I didn't, I've never gone to seminary. Um, all of my ministry training has really been from

school hard knocks. So learning on the job, but I've been in ministry now for almost a decade,

um, full time, started as a worship pastor and then ended up kind of pioneering this whole church

anywhere thing. Um, especially for like the size of church that we are pioneering it both here and

helping lots of churches around the country. And then, um, we grew into something that was really

hard to explain to somebody that would have potential to come to Corbin, Indiana to be, uh,

the succession plan. Cause, uh, Jeff, you know us well enough to know it's, it's hard to explain

who first capital is. We're a physical church, but we're also a digital church. And we also are in

every prison and we're also making movies and we're baptizing people in Kenya and in London and all of

these different places. So to try to describe that to somebody, uh, coming out of more of a traditional

route in ministry is super challenging. Uh, it'd be challenging enough. We were a mega church, but then

we're a church in a small town. So that already narrows the pool of people who would want to come.

And so, uh, to be ultra honest, I think I was a little bit default, the best candidate, um, just,

just because we couldn't really find anybody else. And I've been there a long time. So I'm fortunate

enough that I got this opportunity. Yeah. You're the, you're the, uh, only person crazy enough to try

to run the nut house. So congratulations. But by the way, like, you know, you obviously you are doing

a lot. I actually believe at the church moving forward, I think we're going to see more and more

churches move towards this mindset where you're decentralizing away from the, the idea of it's just

the building and you're putting focus in the digital, you're putting focus in the micro, you're putting

focus in the prison, you're putting focus in, into, I don't know, workplace ministries or, or, you know,

other things that may come up because, and this is the one thing that I think First Capital, uh,

understands maybe better than any church that, that I've met. The best resource that you have right

now as a church is sitting in your pews and getting those people discipled, getting them

activated, getting them released, whether in physical or digital space, like that is, that's

paramount. Uh, and it's so important because now we have that ability to reach into places that the

building does not reach. So often we feel like they're the physical and digital, there's competition,

but there's, there's not because digital is reaching a different type of person than physical

can. I mean, just even looking at your prison ministries, you've told me stories about how,

you know, there are, there are prisoners that tithe money regularly to the church, uh, because that's,

that's what they think they should do because First Capital is their church. You've told me prisoners

that are running hardcore church services, um, be on their own because there is so much ministry

that's happening through the church. They, the church no longer had to volunteer staff. And so it's like,

hey, no problem. We'll do it ourselves and, and, and dive it into that. By the way, like I could

literally tell so many stories from First Capital. I'm, I'm, I'm like, literally, I feel like I'm a

member of the church, even though I'm like literally on the other side of the country from it. But that's

that, if the power of digital, nothing else. Well, Hey, uh, pastor, man, how, just give me some

practical insights here. How has your life changed moving from digital to now lead? What, what, what is

some of that? Uh, give me some experiences. What, what, what are you feeling like, like day to day,

week to week in this? Yeah. Um, some of the big changes are, this is going to sound awful. I'm not

sure I'm doing quite as much as I was. Um, I'm delegating a whole lot more and that's, that's an,

not a new concept for me, but it's a new to this extreme concept for me. Um, the good news about

the timing of when I became the lead pastor was right after the Mars Hill podcast came

out and it was like a gigantic podcast storm playbook of what not to do as a young guy going

into becoming the lead minister of a fairly large church. Um, that also has like a eight

on the Enneagram personality type. So I, I've been intentional about making sure that I'm not

the guy over anything. So we have a teaching team, we have a leadership team. Um, I'm never

like solely making decisions on my own. And, uh, so that's, that's been the practical thing that I've

had to learn how to do over the last four months is, um, how can I put up guardrails to ensure that

we're not creating any type of celebrity pastorship? And, um, how can we make sure that we're actually

doing this as a team with a unified vision moving forward? I love that. Um, yeah, I was not expecting

you to say, yeah, I feel like I'm doing less. I'm, I'm going to just pause there, but, but the idea

of it being healthy, um, you know, I, I think that's a, I think that that's, that's a big move. And, um,

you know, especially a church like yours that, that, you know, I mean, wait, 800, how did COVID affect

you? I mean, maybe that, that, that's a question. Do you feel like you're, are you down? Are you up?

We are almost back. So we're almost back to where we were. I would say we're probably 75 to 80% back.

That's awesome. So even, so you're probably 800, maybe plus or minus somewhere in that space and

in physical space. And so like, there's only, there's only so much the budget can, can afford it.

And you guys have been so good at, um, you know, stretching that and, and, and getting,

you know, systems to overperform and, and finding ways to kind of stretch it and make it work.

Um, that's, that's incredible. How's, um, what, what, I mean, let's, let's shift into

this. What, what does discipleship look like for you all? Like what, what lessons did you

learn during COVID? Like what, how is it working to activate and release these people?

I, you know, I've been harping on relational discipleship, like literally for years. Um,

that has been the only way we were able to build a church anywhere. It was completely

through relationships because we don't have an Andy Stanley or Craig Rochelle that people are

searching for. Nobody's typing in Randy Kirk or Tyler Sansom sermons. So we don't have that

luxury, but what we can do is create genuine one-on-one relationships.

So with that, um, a few years ago, my job description was changed to know a hundred people

online. And then as I hired people on my church to do our staff, um, they had that same job

description. Now we've taken that mindset and we've transferred it into empowering our people

to do one-on-one discipleship as well. So we created this whole thing called, um,

very non-creatively next step guides, but a better term would be one-on-one disciplers.

So this year, um, we hit a hundred percent for the first time in April, but we're about 95% for the

year. Every person that's been baptized has been paired with a mentor that we've given digital tools

for the first six weeks of their journey with Christ. And it's the digital tools are something

to do with the mentor every single day. So it's teaching them how to pray, how to be generous,

how to serve, how to study the Bible, um, like why it's important to be in community. And they're

doing that relationally one-on-one. And what we found is now we're starting to see people who are

baptized. A few months later, after walking beside of somebody, they are now walking beside of other

people. So it's not that there's like an expert and a learner. It's a, Hey, let's be friends. Let's

be in relationship and like be the church and then learn how to do this thing together. And it has been

an absolute game changer for us. So that's, that's this year, that's been our big focus is outfitting

these people relationally. That's, that's, that's great. So it's, it's people that are, that are,

that are, um, that are saved. You're giving them a, a guide and over a six week period. Now,

did I hear you say like almost daily interaction for, for six? Yeah. So the six weeks we give them

like, it's, it's an interactive website and we give them daily tools, um, for six weeks and the

relationship can go longer than six weeks. We just outfit them with material for six weeks,

very conversational. The guide gets a guide version and the person that was baptized gets like a next

stepper version of it. And they kind of go from there. And so we've got like people that are in

recovery. We've got people overseas doing this, but we also have people in our own physical

congregation doing this. Um, it works both in person and online. That's incredible. And, and like

people, how do you, how long does it take to train a guide? Like what, what, so I'm taking a normal

person. I'm basically saying, Hey, you're responsible for being, I mean, it's funny decades

ago, we used to call them first friends, but like the people who would be that, that first friend at

the church, I just maybe dated myself with that reference. I apologize. But how long does it take

to grow that person or train that, that leader to, to take these steps with someone? Um, it depends on

the person right now we're working specifically with, um, people that we know are pretty seasoned in their

walk. And so the training has been done over the years. Um, but as we grow, I think that the actual

six weeks of content that we're doing is enough training for that person at the end to at least

be able to take somebody else through that six weeks of material. So the training, it's kind of

happening on the job.

It's being modeled. Hey, I'm going to, I'm going to do this for you. Now you're going to go and do

this for, do this for somebody else.

It's super cool on Easter. Um, I actually got to be in the water with a, so a guy that gave his

life to Christ to church, anywhere in prison, he got out of prison and moved to court. And that

happens way more frequently than be anticipated. Um, and so I became his next step guy. Cause I really

wanted to, I wanted to be a leader that's really involved with everything that we're doing on the

servant level. And so on Easter, I got to be in the water while he baptized somebody for the very

first time. Um, so I was like the guy that walked beside of him and now I'm going to stand there as

training wheels and you're going to baptize him in the water and I'll be there as you walk beside

this guy. It was really cool moment.

You know, I can remember, uh, pastor Randy talking about how you guys, uh, catalog count,

not just the people that are getting baptized, but the baptizers, you're making it a big deal

about giving, you know, the people that was very influential in the church and other people's lives,

giving them the, the authority, the permission to do that. And, and, and even celebrating,

cause that is a opportunity for spiritual maturity and spiritual growth to say, Hey, here are our

baptizers that are, that are going through that. And what a powerful story. Dude, somebody from

prison, um, you know, getting rehabilitated, coming back over, moving close to the church where

they can be involved in the church and, and then spiritually getting to the point where they

can baptize somebody else, man. What, what, what, what a testimony.

One of the six weeks, like the digital stuff, we go through, uh, like a breakdown of first

Peter three 15 is to always be prepared to give an account for the hope that you have in

Christ. So when we got to that week, I had texted bill is the guy's name. I texted bill on Monday and

said, here's the verse that we're going to talk about this week. I want you to do it. Your challenge

this week is to go out and find somebody to give an account for the hope that you have. And on Thursday,

he called me crying. He's like, you're never going to believe this, but I'm going to baptize somebody

on Sunday because I told them I did what you said. And I told them about Jesus. And I was like,

that's the coolest thing ever.

That is so cool. So man, what, what are the, what are the, what is something coming back to

being the lead pastor?

What is something that you're experiencing that you didn't realize? What, what's the surprise? What's,

what's the expectation that's different to tell me something different in this transition?

Yeah. Um, we, one of the first things that I did as a lead pastor is set an extremely lofty, um,

vision for the church of where we're going this year. We, it's, we're revisiting our core values,

which is something we've talked about before, but we launched this whole outfitting structure

that I keep alluding to, but we really have taken the onus off of counting people that are coming

into the building and like focusing on different metrics and being specific and praying for the Holy

Spirit to use our people and things like that. And so I stood up on stage and I had the whole church

pray over this whole thing. I gave this compelling vision casting and I did not realize the, um,

the spiritual warfare that would happen that follows that because, uh, that's just not something I had

experienced before. I was never like the lead guy and I didn't realize how much the enemy would attack

when the, um, the church is functioning as the church should. And so we're getting to see a ton of

people come to Jesus, a ton of life change, a ton of discipleship. Uh, but the weight of leadership

as the enemy is attacking, uh, is just something that I have continued to get used to. Decision

making has so much more weight than it did before. How, how are you resolving? How are you working

through that? Well, the good news is we put this leadership team in place. So it's not just me

carrying that weight. It's, it's a team of people that I trust. Uh, Randy is actually still on that

leadership team. So that transition has been, um, both really good and still hard to navigate because

he's been the leader for 20 years. Um, and so we're working through that, but to have a team

together to navigate that, um, takes that weight and breaks it into three people rather than all of it

on one person's shoulder. Uh, but man, just the amount of, um, the amount of closed door conversations that

that you have to have that are very hard, um, with staff members and key leaders is just something

that you don't realize until you're in that position. I, I, I, I can totally respect that.

And just some, a lot of that, that tension as, as change is coming now. And Randy, I mean,

Randy didn't retire. He's, he's still on staff. I saw, or still playing a role at least. I saw his,

his job title is coach, literally coach Randy. Coach Randy. Yeah. So he is, uh, he's there

right now as a, kind of like a mentor figure or specifically be still on the leadership team.

Um, and he's still preaching like once a month. Okay. Um, because we, we've been a teaching team

for a long time. And so, uh, he's still really good at preaching. So that's, that's one thing

that we're going to continue to have moving forward with him. Um, I don't know what capacity he will be

after like a year or so, like vocationally, but I wouldn't imagine him going anywhere preaching-wise.

I mean, it's, it's been obvious over the years, you guys have a, have a great relationship and to

see that, that, that extended on like, even as he's transitioning, I, you know, I think it's,

it's a beautiful thing. Well, listen, we, we, we've been dancing around this out, this, uh,

outsiders. That's not the word I'm looking for. It's, it's out, I'm not outliers. That's another

word outfitters. I have been writing a lot of outwards today. Everything that I, I'd literally

have written stuff on, on outsiders and outliers. And neither of that is important for this

conversation, but outfitters, I think is so, Hey, we've been dancing around that a little bit.

Um, you know, maybe define clearly what this idea of, of a spiritual outfitter is and, and, and how

you're utilizing that within, um, for capital. Yeah. For about, um, the last forever, the church has been

really focused on one hour on a Sunday morning. And we decided, man, it's been a buzzword to hear,

like, let's focus on the one 67. Let's do all this stuff. But to September of 2020, we decided,

uh, why don't we just actually do that? Let's stop talking about it and let's figure out how

we're actually going to do that. So we came up with this concept of spiritual outfitters,

where we're going to shift the focus from getting people to come to our building for an experience.

And our main priority is to, um, figure out ways that we can outfit our people that we're shepherding

to take one step closer to Jesus every single day. Uh, which requires a whole lot of philosophical

shift in how to do ministry requires us to be a lot more relational. Um, because if we're taking

individuals on a journey, one step closer, we got to know our people. And then the second thing is we

have to figure out, uh, different lead measures, um, because we're trying to get different lag measures.

So before lead measures could have been, let's do a marketing campaign to get people into our

building. Let's preach a great sermon series. So people will come back. Let's do a baptism Sunday.

So don't know when to schedule a baptism, but our lead measures are completely different now.

Um, it's how can we give opportunities for people to become generous? Um, how can we give people

opportunities to go serve people they've never served before outside of the building?

How can we make sure people are engaged on a Tuesday and on a Thursday? Um, so that's,

that's been a total shift for our staff. We worked on the whole strategy for about a year

and we launched it January of this year.

What, what fruits have you seen with, with the start this year? How's it been received?

Yeah, an unbelievable amount of baptisms. We were at like 78 or 80 baptisms for the year so far.

Um, and that's, this is the first weekend of May.

I mean, that, that, that, I mean, that's, that's like 10% of the audience, right?

That's, so that's crazy.

It is. Yeah, it's nuts.

They're the retention of people being baptized is significantly higher as well. That, that's,

that's another huge one. Um, since shifting our, we don't, we don't track, I, our executive

pastor tracks the amount of money coming in. Nobody else ever sees the offering.

Um, so we literally never send out attendance and offering, which has been something that

every church ever sends out to like, at least the staff. We've switched to, um, a Google sheet

that shows number of givers, um, and then number of people that are in connection that are in, um,

like connection opportunities. So life groups, things like that, uh, number of people that are

baptizing, uh, number of, uh, people that are serving in various aspects. So we've got this

percentage of people that are actually being out there. And that's what we focused on metrics wise.

And so the, um, the fruit, but the question you asked about the fruit is really easy to see because

we're literally tracking only spiritual fruit that's happening rather than like these vanity metrics.

So we're seeing lots more people give because we're giving them different opportunities to give.

We're seeing more people serve because we're encouraging them to be missionaries in their

daily lives, uh, that kind of thing.

I mean, so, so you guys have, uh, literally what you're doing here is, is you're, you're

intentionally focusing on, on the people in the pews. And, and like I'd said earlier,

you're activating them through this, through this outfitter program.

The byproduct is we're growing and the offerings going up and more people are hearing about Jesus

in the community because we're unleashing like 800 people in a 3,000 person town or, um, a thousand

people out of a 2,000 person reach online. So this is by far the best way we could reach as many people

as possible. No marketing strategy or sermon series or anything like that could produce this kind of,

uh, dividends.

Wow. How much of it is like, you know, and, and sometimes, you know, you're giving them opportunities

to, to do this, you know, like group leaders, you know, I think would be maybe sometimes serving in

the community, maybe the church has a relationship. How much of it is, is helping them accomplish the

thing they want to do. You know, I can remember like the, the micro church leaders that are doing

it in hospitals, after school daycare centers, orphanages, rehab centers. Like those are some

unique experiences, uh, to do. Like how much of it is, is giving them permission to do this? What,

what does that look like for y'all?

Yeah. One of our core values that we're talking about this year, we haven't,

it's the last quarter of the year, um, is we want everyone to be on mission. So we want every

Jesus follower to have a Jesus cause. And in order for us to preach that from the stage,

we've been intentionally, um, outfitting specific people and capturing their story throughout.

So let me give you an example in April. Uh, well in January, after, um, we laid this whole vision

out, I had a guy come up to me and said, Hey, I do CrossFit. I'd love to somehow figure out a way

to reach the CrossFit community, uh, in our area. Can I put together a triathlon and have it end at the

church and then provide them the safe place to worship right after they finished the triathlon?

I was like, yes, absolutely. That's exactly what we want you to do. So this guy organized the whole

thing. We gave him some advertising money and we had, um, about 45 people from the community,

um, sign up for this and they did a triathlon. It ended at our church and we got some love on them

that way. So the more opportunities like that for people that are passionate about something,

we would love to figure out ways to use that passion for a kingdom purpose.

And we're seeing it throughout. Um, we've got a guy who's working with some Afghan refugees right

now. Uh, we've got, uh, a girl from Missouri that watches us online. That's now leading an online

prayer team. Um, that's just simply finding people that need prayer, uh, through Facebook and praying

for them simple things, but it's taking a step closer to Jesus every day.

I'm going to be completely honest. If I ran a triathlon, I don't know that I would want to

do a worship experience immediately afterwards. We, uh, we threw them in the different auditoriums.

I ran a half marathon and like, I couldn't walk for like three days afterwards. So the idea of a

triathlon, I just, I, that's yeah, I don't think that's me.

It was freezing cold too. It was like, it was like 40 degrees when they started. So they got out of the

water at the YMCA and then tried to get on a bicycle and it was just like ice cubes. It's so cold.

I felt awful for them, but it was a good event. Let me, let me dig in on something. Cause you

talked about Missouri, you're in Indiana, you know, you can, you guys with your digital Europe,

like I said, you're an 800 person church, uh, but you've got, I mean, I don't want to put global

on it, but you mentioned a couple of countries earlier baptizing in Africa and London. I forget

the nation in Africa, but right. Uh, and you're, you're Kenya, Kenya. Thank you. Um, you know,

I know you've got microsites in, in physical location or microsites in, uh,

different states scattered across America. Um, what's the tension? Well,

let me ask, cause I don't, I don't feel the tension. So how did you, how are you counterbalancing

the tension within your church? Because you know, smallest church, medium sized church,

blue collar, smallest town. Let's, let's keep the money inside. Um, but, but you are intentionally

focusing a lot of this outside and with digital, with prison, you know, with a lot of these things,

these are not, you know, highly revenue generating ministries, but you're seeing ministry success

out of it. Maybe that isn't even generating like money. So how have you managed to navigate that

tension where now you can focus outside of the church and really build stuff beyond what's happening

within those, those walls? Um, a lot of it has just been, uh, time, time has really helped.

So that with the more like life change stories that we can share with our people that happen outside

of the walls, um, the more they buy into the vision of what we're trying to do. And, uh, after six or

seven years of doing that, that, uh, that has really helped and allowed us to be in a position to

really have some freedom in those areas as we were coming up with the outfitting strategy. Um, the

criteria was that everything that we put on the, um, like the metrics that we're tracking and the,

we call them aisles. We do like an inventory list every quarter of things that we're outfitting our

people with everything on the aisles, everything that we're tracking has to at least have the option

for microsites and online to be a part of. Uh, so if it's like, if it's a lag measure, like, uh,

they have to have the option to be a part of our reach because we've, we've started counting for a

long time online plus microsites plus in-person attendance as a part of who we are. So if we're

going to try to outfit everyone, we have to include everyone that we're shepherding. Um,

and so that's just been a philosophical shift that's happened over the last like seven years.

You, you mentioned, you know, at one point it was your job and you've, we've talked about this

before on the podcast, where it's literally your job description to know a hundred people on online. Um,

as do other people on your staff, do they have that responsibility now? I mean, you're a lead pastor.

Do you even feel that tension now? Like how, how is that working out in, in 2022 first capital

Christian? It's a really good question and a really good idea that I probably should have thought of.

You can take credit for it. It's okay. Nobody knows about you and me.

This, this shift that we've made has been, um, extremely relational. So, uh, even staff members

that had, um, their only context of ministry might've been in like strategic systems have now

started becoming more and more relational. And so I have not felt like I needed to mandate a hundred

person online or a hundred person in person. You have to know them, uh, because I feel like right now,

at least our staff is very unified in this vision going forward of making things very

relational. And so it's kind of happened organically.

Well, I mean, you're, you've achieved this place where it's part of your, your culture.

You know, it's, it's like you, you culture is culture, you know, eat strategy, uh, for breakfast

or something like that. Somebody said that, uh, you know, we'll give credit, we'll give credit

to Tyler. Tyler said it's just because Tyler didn't say it. Yeah, totally. Um, but you know,

and so, I mean, you've gotten to that place where it doesn't have to be because you and others

kind of before you, um, you know, fought to get it there and leadership was supporting to get

that, you know, many listeners out there. I don't, I'm, you're not quite at that culture point yet.

And so laying down some of, some of those ground rules. Well, let me ask you, let me ask it this

way, Tyler. Do you think you would have gotten to this place where it is culture without you forcing

yourself and maybe challenging others that are around you to, to hold to that standard?

No, I don't. And as a leader, I think if I don't continue to hold myself to that standard,

the culture will also shift, uh, because our, like our natural tendency as church people,

all we've known growing up is not super relational ministry. It's been systematic ministry where we put,

put somebody in a pathway or a class or something, uh, to get them closer to Jesus. And we're taking

that whole philosophy and turning it up on its head. So if I don't lead forward in that and continue to

to be the one that like pioneers that and pushes into that, uh, then I think the culture could very quickly

go back to the other direction. Um, so I think it was a great idea several years ago. I think it's a really

good idea that I continue to lead out in that as well.

Well, let me ask this, you know, I'm, I'm really excited and, and I feel, I believe this is going to tie

into the outliers. Like I want to have a conversation about digital missionary, but I'm pretty sure it's going to tie

into outliers, which will tie into digital discipleship. And so we're kind of talking, if you're watching on YouTube,

we're like going like crazy up and down because it, everything kind of links and it's tied into one

another. Uh, and so I, I don't, I, but I want to spend some time in the, in the nuance on, on the

digital missionary piece. And so like here, here's the contact context for me, digital church network.

We've, we've got, like I said earlier, almost 500 people in this network. Um, we've got, um, you know,

a large percentage of them are bivocational, co-vocational. Uh, they're not attached to a church. Uh,

and so, but they're looking to do digital ministry. They're, they're looking to connect with people

digitally. And I've actually been surprised over the past couple months, how often I've heard the

church say the words digital missionary. And so it's like, we're not, you know, the big C church.

We're not comfortable with the idea of metaverse church. We're not comfortable maybe with digital

only expressions of church. There needs to be some physical grounding as well. Okay. You know,

we can have that conversation, but I disagree with you, but it's fine. But what we are comfortable

with, because we are recognizing that it's, that it's a, it's a mission field. Digital and metaverse

is a mission field. There are opportunities to reach people. We're not really comfortable yet with,

with discipleship, uh, in digital and metaverse space, but we can at least engage with them at Jesus

and try to get them connected to a physical church. Once again, I don't, I, there's parts of that

strategy I love. If that's what a church has got to do to get started, that's fine. I think it's a

great idea. I wouldn't end there, but I would at least start to engage with it. You guys have done,

you know, some unique approaches with, uh, digital missionaries with, with influencers. And so I'd love

to, as a matter of fact, I was kind of looking at your material a week or so ago and it said 2.0 next

to it. It's like you're on influencer 2.0, uh, approach. And so, you know, I'd love to maybe

learn a little bit about what the second approach is. Maybe some lessons you learned from the first,

like, but maybe just even to start off, let's, let's unpack here. What, what exactly, what's your

approach and how have you looked at this digital missionary?

Yeah. So there's two, we have two different approaches to digital missionaries.

approach number one, which is why influencer 2.0 exists. Approach number one is using, um,

advertising to markets of people's felt needs. And we have a team of people, probably 11 or so people

that respond to these emails. So, uh, we've created resources like mental health, uh, resources,

marriage, grief, um, managing finances, like things that people are searching for.

Uh, we've got a ton of resources on our website that we use advertising money to hit those people.

And then there's a talk to a counselor option. There's a talk to the pastor option. So we have

a team of people responding. We probably get like, I don't know, in, in between like 20 and to 30 a

week or so of those, you know, and what's interesting, let me even unpack there. That strategy

is actually very common globally. Organizations like crew organizations like Billy Graham Association,

uh, international mission board, uh, international mission board, like there's whole departments.

Uh, it's called media engagement in global missions and the ability to kind of create those

campaigns, marketing campaigns that then funnels into a database that then has a, a multilingual call

bank where they've got operators that are engaging on WhatsApp digitally or audibly on a phone call to

engage with those types of people. Like that strategy is, uh, you know, I don't want to say billions,

but there's a ton of money spent to make that happen at a global level. And sit, but you're one of the

few churches that I've actually heard domestically here in America that, that has adapted that and

kind of bring it into the church. So kudos for that, even just to call it 1.0.

So I think we've, yeah, I think we actually started doing that in 2016. So this is, that's the longest

form of digital mission work we've done. Um, last two years, 18 months or so ago, we stuck our foot

into the global version of that. So we, we host perspectives at our church, the, um, like mission

learning community thing. And it's like a 10 week course and people that, uh, are really interested

in missions work after they take perspectives, but don't have any means to become a full-time

missionary overseas. Uh, we provide them with a global digital missionary platform where we still

are using felt needs, things like that, but our team has targeted India. So we have 18 people that

have gone through perspectives. And the cool part is they're not just from our church. They're from

churches all over the place, but they're a digital team. So it doesn't matter. Um,

and they are, they're in conversation with people from India over over felt needs around a hundred to

180 people a week. Um, it's really cool. And some of these relationships have lasted a long time.

I got an email from one of our team members two weeks ago who has been in conversation with the same,

uh, young female who was struggling with mental health for the last six months. And they are now

calling each other on the phone, like via WhatsApp. And so it went from like a couple of emails to

texting to, uh, Facebook messaging. So now they're actually friends and this person's walking beside

of her and introducing her to Jesus. So that's like the first level of digital missionaries.

We've got the domestic felt needs, the global felt needs and various people on those teams. But then

there's the influencer 2.0 level, the, uh, the social media influencer level, we have seven people who

are doing that right now. Um, but some of them are on TikTok. Some of them are writing blogs. Some of them

are doing, um, YouTube channels. And, uh, I think that's, that's the only three avenues right now. Um,

blogs, TikTok and YouTube, I think are the three, um, that we've got various channels on, but basically

it's taking someone's interest. Um, we've got a girl that plays softball collegiately. So she does a lot

of like how to hit softball videos and then shares her testimony and shared Bible verses on TikTok every day.

And she's getting like 30 to 40,000 hits a week. Um, and then we've got a guy who's really passionate

about, um, recovery from anxiety. And so he's doing something called rewrites and it's, uh, he's finding

people's stories and creating these like cinematic stories of people who have overcome specific mental

health issues and sharing them on a YouTube channel. We've got a couple that loves cooking. And so

they do a channel that's like basically a food network cooking show. It's like five or six minutes.

Here's how to cook a dish. But here's also why you do that. It's to be hospitable because that's

what the Bible says. And they share their story through that. Um, so we've created this, uh,

like six to eight week learning experience from, um, actual YouTube, TikTok, uh, Instagram influencers

from all over the nation, um, that help provide content for it. It's called influencer 2.0.

And we take our people through that and then kind of launch their channels. And we have a person on

staff that's like their point person to walk beside them. So that's the other form of missionaries

that we do. How has that, so you're, you're, you're running a, uh, it sounds like a beta test,

like a seven, seven people. Well, it's hard to get somebody to commit to that. It's like a

minimum year long commitment. So this, this is like the, the level that's a pretty committed kind of thing.

What are you, what are you learning through it? Because, I mean, cause, cause that's,

I mean, I, I, in my mind, just in, in my world with, with DCN and this later conversation,

but you know, I could think of, I could think of 10 to 15 people that would be interested in doing

something at that level to that extreme. Um, well, first off, why is it, why is it a year? Why,

why is, do you need to, do you feel like that long is, is necessary?

I mean, unless you come up with a viral video growth on social media is very slow. Um,

influencer growth is very slow. We're not talking like throwing a Facebook page up with like posts

every 10 weeks or something. Like the goal is to create relationships through these channels.

And so it's hard to get a year is at minimum. I think what you would need to at least gain some

form of audience, um, with this style of industry. So it's, it's more about the, the length of it

isn't, you know, trainings and tactics and skills as much as it is, uh, just accountability and, and,

and support of, of, of what's going on. That, that, that's really interesting. What, what is, um,

is, is, is it like a, a biweekly, a weekly, a monthly, how often is, is engagement?

It depends on the person. Uh, the cooking show is like once a month. Uh, my wife does actually one

on photography. She's a professional photographer. And so she's doing one once a month right now.

That's creating a YouTube video on, uh, wedding photography tips, and then sharing Jesus through

that. Um, mine is the most sporadic, but I've also been doing it the longest. So, um, I do a YouTube

video here and there, but most of them are like twice a month to once a month right now.

So, so you're not dragging your upright piano out to like the beach anymore to sing, uh,

you know, beaches up at Beth Midler cover. Not, not like you're not, you're not really doing that

anymore. I'm going to, I'm going to continue to do it, but I got something I had to give.

Yeah. I mean, you give yourself some credit. You may be a, a, a lead pastor who thinks he's got

his life easy, but you're also working on a Christian film. So like there's, there's contextually,

you're kind of still a busy guy. Yeah. After, after the film's over, you'll, you'll see some

more Broadway covers, I think. But what are you, um, who are you looking for with this? Like

if, uh, what type of person makes a digital missionary at that influencer type level that,

that's your, maybe what are, what are some traits or some characteristics? Like,

how do I know that this is me? They, I mean, you have to be charismatic behind a camera for them,

or in front of the camera for the most part, unless you're just writing a blog,

which there's a guy named Evan that writes a blog who, um, he had written a blog before,

and now he's partnered with us to be a digital missionary. And that's awesome. Cause we can use

like our Google ad grant money to push people to the blog. Cause it's hosted on our site now,

things like that. Um, so for the most part though, you have to at least be good on camera.

Otherwise, like nobody's going to want to watch you, but on the flip side of that,

you also have to be authentic. So it can't be just like an actor or something like that. It has to be

a person that's gifted in charisma and also a person that's sold out for Jesus. Cause

people on the internet will sniff through that so fast.

So that's the two main things that we look for is authenticity,

and then at least some form of skill to be in front of the camera.

Yeah. That's, that, that's fascinating.

Which is why the pool is like this big.

And listen, I mean, listen, we all have influence. Uh, you know, I remember writing a blog early on

about, you know, your, your aunt Ruth, who's really good at pistachio pudding. She has influence.

Now, I don't know that she wants to dedicate a year towards being more of a influencer approach,

but I think that she can be activated as a digital ministry through maybe some other,

you know, approaches. And one of the things that actually in next week in the podcast,

we've got John Ferguson coming in, uh, talking about, you know, Dave and John,

they wrote a book years ago about the blessed practices, uh, and, and really kind of this,

this methodology. And it was written for like physical neighbors, physical people to engage

within their neighborhood and start to, um, you know, engage their neighbors and be a blessing to

them and build relationships. And what's, what's fascinating as I sat down and really,

as we started to unpack kind of like the blessed practices, since I worked with new thing and

community Christian and all these people, I started, you know, we started recognizing,

Hey, this actually works for like digital missionaries. And so we're going to talk about

a simplified approach, uh, with John next week on the podcast. But, you know, for this one,

really kind of focusing on, on these influencers approach. Yeah. Maybe not everybody's going to be,

you know, I'm kind of half joking, but dragging the upright piano out into the, uh,

ocean and shooting a video while singing, you know, uh, whatever beaches by, uh, uh,

Bette Midler. Did Bette Midler actually sing beaches? I don't know if that's like a horrible

example. I just, I, it was close. I did, um, a bright piano and I think Africa by Toto in fake rain.

So that's really close. That's what I'm sorry. I knew it was something to do with water. And,

uh, but you're, you're kind of, you're the show tunes guy on YouTube, aren't you? Yeah.

Like a little bit, um, bless the rains down in Africa. I would, a friend of mine just posted on,

on Facebook this past week that, that they went and they saw Toto like live in concert.

And, and my response, I was like, Toto's still alive. Like that was kind of, it was a surprise

bet. I didn't, I didn't realize, but actually our, um, Megan, who's our engagement pastor,

that's pioneering all of the digital missionary stuff. She actually went and saw Toto with her

husband last week in journey. Maybe that's what it was. It was Toto and journey together.

Oh my gosh. That actually would, that actually would have been a really good concert.

Megan's not old enough to think that's a good concert. I, I, she's young. That surprises.

That is her husband's favorite band of all time. Toto. So awesome. I have no idea how we got,

I actually do know how we got there, but, but it's, but it's fun. Like what's, what's a win

for you on this, this influencer? Like, is that, is this part of your church? Is this a separate

thing that you're just experimenting with as lead pastor? What, I mean, what are your expectations

coming, coming out of the influencer? Yeah, it is, uh, very much part of our church, part of our DNA.

Um, I'll give you a very practical win. It was, um, one of our tick tock digital missionaries,

uh, found out that she's done. She does a lot of stuff on being a mom, um, and also being an anxious

mom. So she has anxiety when she's a young mom. And so that's like a lot of her tick tock. And so she

connected with this girl, um, that was struggling with the same issues and they found out they were like

an hour and a half away. And so they met up in person after they connected online through this

digital missionary platform. And then now the mom, the other mom drives like an hour to our church

and brings her daughter with her. And so this digital missionary is literally sitting in the auditorium

with this mom. That's like an hour away that the only connection is through tick tock.

So that's a very practical win, um, to bring that like online engagement to an in-person relationship.

Obviously that's the, like the pinnacle of, of wins, but that's a good example that actually happened.

So you're, the goal is you're, you're trying to get the, the influencers to get people that their

audience connected into a physical relationship with the influencer, with the church, with another

church, like what's that would be awesome. Uh, with another church, the goal is to go from like a large

top end funnel where it's just like creating content down to a communal relationship. So,

um, getting to know the people you're influencing on a personal level and then introducing them to

Jesus and then introducing them to in-person community somewhere. It doesn't have to be our

church. Um, we call it church anywhere for a reason. It doesn't have to be first capital. It could be

wherever, as long as, uh, they're in community with other believers.

I mean, that that's very open-handed, which is another thing I think we're going to see

in churches in the future that it's, it's not about, you know, a, a brand or an individual or

kind of driving that traffic to, to first cat to first capital, but Hey, let's try to connect with

others and try to connect people across that. So I think, I think that's, that's noble. Um,

what, how, let me ask this question. How, how far are you in, into the, the, with the seven,

like what changes would you consider doing for the second round? What lessons have you learned to

try to even reproduce and do this? Maybe what are some next steps even with, uh, with this influencer

track? Yeah, I think, I honestly think we're still a little bit early in, um, to answer that question

fully. Uh, we've already been making a ton of questions specific or answering a ton of questions

specifically, like how often do they post? What's the style of posting that each of them, um, are

seeing the most traction with, um, what type of content are people actually wanting to watch versus,

uh, what the influencers want to create. So finding that balance of like trying to guide them,

um, like Megan and myself are not, we're not big influencers by any means. Um, although I do have

the blue check mark on Facebook, my wife and I are very proud about that. She's like sitting over here

listening. Uh, but, uh, we've just got some experience on figuring out like algorithms and

what's opposed to when to post and trying to, that's, that's not an easy concept to teach just

like a regular person, uh, that doesn't live in that world. And so that's really the things that

we're learning is how to communicate, um, algorithm shifts to people, how to communicate,

Hey, this is a great idea, but nobody's going to watch that in a loving way and things like that.

So it's a continual process of learning.

I mean, so you guys are really diving in. There's a lot of tactics here. If you're getting

into analyzing the algorithms, um, beyond just like the, the simple content piece and accountability,

that, that, that's really good.

And that's more on our staff. Like that's, that's how we're guiding. So we're not expecting

people to do that, but we have to be on top of it so you can coach them.

Coach them through it. And that's, and that's an ever changing game as well. Of course,

as you know, um, what is, what, what areas did you say that the people we're in right now?

Um, it's TikTok. I remember YouTube blog blogs and YouTube and what was the last one?

YouTube, TikTok, YouTube and blog and blog posts.

What blog surprises me is, is there, is there much, you know, coming to a blogger? Um, is there much

influence left, left in blogs? Maybe what's the, what's the secret to that one?

So this one is about men who are, um, struggling with sexual addiction. And so it's a very niche

audience with a guy who's got a great story in that of how God redeemed him. And so it's not the

largest influence, but it's an extremely important influence and a tight knit community, if that makes

sense.

So the lesson there is you're not trying to reach everybody. You're trying to reach a particular

person.

But it's a very much needed person to be reached.

And this is the one that you were talking about moving it to your domain, which now that niche

group, that niche group makes sense, you know, still doing that within the, which, which domains

you put it on church anywhere? Yeah. Uh, you know, and so that doesn't feel entirely out of place

on, on that. Um, and you can use the grant. I mean, that, that it's called the constant battle.

If you want to check it out on our, our sites, it's pretty good stuff.

Cool. We'll, we'll put a, we'll put a link into the show notes. We'll, we'll find that

and get, get that figured out. But this is beautiful, man. Listen, I can, I know you're

on vacation. I mean, I could sit around here and talk to you for another couple of hours,

but I want to let you get back to whatever is at the international Christian movie cinema

conference, mostly movies, mostly movies, I guess. Awesome. Um, Hey, listen, as, as, um,

I feel like I want to ask a joke, like, you know, something like, you know, or is, or cinema is

going to make it okay. Um, what's the last movie you saw in a theater? Are you, are you getting

to the theaters a lot? I'm actually curious. Uh, the last movie that I saw in a theater,

you know, sir, I don't know. We, we, we were all in on the regal unlimited pass. Um, we saw

every movie that ever came out for like two years and then COVID hit. And then we just had a hard

time getting back in the suite of things, but we do live really close to the drive in and it opens

this weekend. So, um, we'll hit that a lot. So maybe, maybe I'll get, maybe I'll get that back.

You know, I, I just, you know, I feel bad saying this is a guy who makes movies, but yeah, at this

point, like for me to actually hit a theater, like it's gotta be Marvel cinematic, you know,

something epic that I just want to experience on the screen. I watch movies all the time at home,

but you know, the theaters, man, they're, they're, they're dwindling away. So, um, but that's a

conversation for another day. We'll have to do like the, the Christian, what's the name of the new

movie? I, I can, I can, what I, is it just, I can, it's just, I can, um, you know, I've got,

I've got fight in my head. So I've naturally put, I can fight together, which is not probably what you

want to do. The mashup of those two, I don't think might probably not. Yeah. Maybe that's the sequel

that none of us really want at this point. So that's awesome. Hey, as, as we're, as we're landing

the plane, any closing thoughts, man? Uh, no, I would just tell you that the, probably the biggest

lesson I've learned in all of ministry specifically now that I get to be the lead and my voice has a

lot of weight is, uh, there's a whole lot of, Hey, let's just do this mindset that has to happen

really soon with the church. Like we can't, we got to stop just talking about stuff and just like,

let's just do it. Let's stop talking about the 167. Go figure out a way to make it happen.

So stop talking about digital missionaries and digital, uh, stuff and let's just go do it.

And then we can talk about what we did after. Um, I think that's, that's a, that's a big lesson

we all need to learn. Awesome. Um, to just, you know, burn, burn the ships, man. Let's go. Uh,

you know, the it's, it's funny, even, you know, some of the, some of the churches,

you know, I'm working with some churches on some things and I'm like, no, you're going to,

we're going to launch something in 22. Like, this is not, I don't want to sit around and just,

you know, wax poetic and talk theoretical. There's, there's other opportunities to do that,

but we want to, we want to go with the goers. And so, you know, love your heart and, and,

and, and, you know, quite honestly, you have put your money where your mouth is over the years and,

uh, lead pastor, sir. It's, it's an honor to have you on and excited to see how God's going to

continue to utilize, uh, you and, uh, and, and just even other churches, uh, setting the example,

uh, through first capital. So thanks for doing it, man. And, and thanks for jumping on the show,

but we're going to land the plane. So for, for Tyler, this is Jeff with the church digital,

digital church network and a bunch of other fun stuff. Thanks for jumping on the podcast here.

We'll see you next time here at the show. Y'all have a good one.