EP216: Jon Ferguson: Can BLESS be Framework of a Digital Missionary?

You don't have to add anything to your busy schedule in order to bless somebody.

Just instead of eating by yourself, ask somebody to join you.

And again, I think online, like if you're, I mean, we're all working out of the house,

right?

But you're still going to stop and eat.

So call somebody up and say, hey, how about noon?

Let's just take a break at the same time and share a meal.

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church.

But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

Is disciple making possible digitally?

How should we approach the digital mission field?

Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space?

Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this?

Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church plant,

the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church,

digitally and physically.

Our heart, that churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple making

that will revolutionize your church.

And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed.

All right, hey, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

And it's great to be here again with you.

It's episode 216.

Excited about where we're going with this conversation and today's guest.

Hey, we are doing the Leadership Network is doing a metaverse church summit.

We're doing a free conference on a metaverse church and what's happening in that space just

a mere couple of days away.

If you're listening in real time when this podcast released, we're doing it Wednesday.

I believe that's going to be like the 17th.

And so 1 to 4 p.m.

Head over to the website leadnet.org.

For more information, man, there's going to be, I could just start naming the number of

people, but anybody, a lot of the people that have been on this podcast, we got to come in

and talk about metaverse church.

And so if you are considering the metaverse, maybe you've talked about doing some stuff in

virtual reality or some of the other Web3 technologies.

You've talked about it to your leadership and they're not sure.

You know what?

Get them to watch that summit and get them exposed to maybe some of these ideas.

It's interesting, just real quick.

There's been a pastor I've been trying to connect with for four years and the person, long story

short, just keeps blowing me off.

Jeff, you know, really not interested in metaverse.

Jeff, really not interested in having conversations about digital.

Guy signed up for the summit.

So Leadership Network is throwing their credibility behind this and that's exciting.

So go check out leadnet.org for more information on that and get connected into that summit free

if you're watching it live here in a couple of days.

It's going to be great.

And that's actually, it's going to set up awesome because while we're talking metaverse and while

we're talking crazy, I've got my friend here, John Ferguson from, you know, loosely with New

Thing Network, definitely with Community Christian Church up in Chicago here on the podcast.

So John, thanks for coming on with us.

Yeah, great to be with you, Jeff.

Thanks.

I thought it was interesting.

You said if you want to be a part of metaverse, I didn't know it was optional anymore, but

it's good that you're still giving people the out.

Well, it's interesting.

I wrote a really great comment.

I actually wrote a blog about how a lot of churches are still operating in a web one in

an information age mentality where, hey, let's put our information on the website about

our services and let's just expect people to show up on our services.

And that may have worked in, you know, 2005.

I think in 2022, not sure it's going to get the results that you're looking for.

And we're definitely trending away from that.

No, I know.

I mean, I know this isn't exactly where we're going with this conversation, but just quick,

quick, quick story if it's okay.

Just past few weeks, we lead a small group right here in this home.

It's my house.

I live on the north side of Chicago in the city.

And a couple contacted me.

Hey, I'd like to connect with your small group.

And I'm like, okay, I don't think I've ever seen them on a Sunday.

How did they find out about us?

And through the course of conversation, they said, yeah, well, we've actually been a part

of community since last August and just been with you guys online and really enjoyed it

and loved it.

But I feel like now it's time for us to connect to a small group.

Still haven't finally showed up one time on a Sunday for the first time, but been a part

of the small group now for about a month, giving generously to the church.

But, you know, their almost entire experience has been online.

And so it's really, really fun to see.

And another young woman who's never been to one of our locations in the city next, this

coming Sunday is going to get baptized.

She took an alpha course online with us.

She took a rooted course with us online, but has never been to any one of our in-person

services.

But she's getting baptized at one of our physical locations.

Because maybe you figured that out.

Is there a way to get baptized without showing up at a physical location?

Well, it's funny you ask that.

Yeah, there are.

It's funny.

There's probably three or four different methods that digital churches are using.

Everything from, I think, Jay Cranda over at Saddleback's told stories about literally

flying across the country to go baptize somebody.

And so there is a little bit of that.

There are churches, when I was at Christ Fellowship Miami, we did trainings where we would

train people on how to baptize.

And so as long as they were Christian, we were training others to do the baptism.

A really funny video of somebody getting baptized at a house church that was meeting in a New

York City apartment.

And when they actually did the dunking in the little five-square-foot bathroom in a New

York City apartment, they didn't dunk away from the nozzle.

They dunked towards the nozzle.

And there was like an inch.

It didn't actually hit.

John Ferguson's freaking out on me just in space.

It didn't hit, but it was like an inch away.

It caused for a lot of humorous and drama from it.

But yeah, listen, baptism's a real thing.

Communion.

How do you do communion?

I jokingly talked in COVID about how I did communion with my family with Coca-Cola and

cauliflower wafers, because that's the closest thing we had to grape juice and unleavened

bread in the house.

A lot of grape juice substitutes, for sure.

A lot of grape juice substitutes for that season.

Yeah, you got to be careful with those in-home baptisms.

You know, you have to have people sign some sort of like release or waiver that if they're

injured, you know, they can't hold the church liable for any injuries.

So true.

By the way, like I really have enjoyed this conversation.

I am a employee of Community Christian Church in Chicago.

And so like I'm literally sitting here having a conversation with a co-worker.

So this has been great, John, man.

Thanks for jumping in this and having it.

Like this is like relaxing and fun.

Normally working with like new thing people talking, I'll shop.

But hey, this is great.

Just chewing the fat.

Maybe we'll talk about eating.

I have a feeling here in a little bit.

So here, I got a drink too.

Cheers.

All right.

Hey, iced tea at its finest.

Very good.

All right.

Hey, so let's dig into this.

Here's what we're talking about today.

We're brainstorming here with Digital Church Network, with New Thing Network.

How to become, how to train, how to equip digital missionaries.

And so the idea we've been talking about like from an influencer perspective.

And just last week, we did a podcast with Tyler Sansom, who was talking a lot about his

approach to First Capital Christian on how to train digital missionaries.

And honestly, his approach is very technical.

It's very detailed.

It's very thorough.

And it's not necessarily for everybody, but it's very effective for those that are wanting

to do it.

By the way, we're going to start to release some of that through Digital Church Network

in the months to come.

So you want to pay attention if you're interested in kind of adapting more of this like influencer

approach and using that influencer gaining to point people to Christ.

Now, for today's conversation, I really want to start to, you know, peel back some layers

here because John Ferguson and his brother, you know, maybe you've heard of him, Dave Ferguson.

The two of these guys got together, I don't know, years ago and wrote this book, Bless.

Bless Practices.

We'll put a link to it in the show notes, but it really started to impact how to be a missionary,

how to connect with people in the physical realm.

And I sat down in just a casual moment doing work, looking at blessed practices, looking

at kind of what we could do digitally.

And I started to ask the question, what would it look like if we utilize this blessed foundation,

not necessarily from an influencer perspective, but much more at an individual level, at a

personal level, and started to connect with people almost as a digital missionary through

it.

And so the theory, the hypothesis is, is can we use blessed practices towards it?

Now, the beauty of this is that John Ferguson, I really have not unpacked this idea, neither

have Dave and I.

And so we're doing a training with Dave in a couple of weeks through DCN on this as well,

but would love to maybe get some conversations here.

John Ferguson, let's just even start with this.

So blessed practices, what, describe for me a little bit, what is blessed practices?

What does this actually mean?

Yeah, great, great question, Jeff.

Thanks again for the opportunity to talk about this.

And yeah, I don't claim to be the expert on digital evangelism, but I do think blessed is

the kind of thing that could apply to just about any context and definitely in the digital

realm as well.

So, you know, at Community, our mission is helping people find their way back to God.

And I think, I will speak for Dave, I do that quite frequently, I will now as well, in saying

that, you know, I think both of us personally experienced some of the same frustration many

others have felt when it comes to sharing your faith, whether that's, you know, actual in

person or digitally for that matter.

And I think, you know, so often in spite of our best efforts, you know, it feels, it almost

comes off like a sales pitch or an effort to get somebody to do something they didn't

necessarily want to do.

And so the last thing anybody I think wants to do is turn somebody off in an effort to

show them something as significant, as impactful as the love of Jesus.

And so, you know, we came up with what we found was really a theme throughout scripture that

we are called to be a blessing, to bless those around us.

I mean, I grew up in a Christian home and have experienced the impact of a life-changing

relationship with Jesus.

And, you know, when you experience that, you naturally want to share that with others.

We just couldn't find a way to do it that felt natural and authentic.

And so in some ways, bless came out of, I think, our own personal frustrations, but also

since that same frustration in the lives of the people in our church.

I mean, good night.

Our mission is helping people find their way back to God.

People in our church could recite it.

They could point to it on the website.

They could see it on the signs when you walk in.

I mean, it was everywhere.

I remember Ed Stetzer at one time coming to community and we had lunch afterwards and he's

shaking his head and he's going, he's going like this, like, man, 13 times, 13 times.

And I'm like, 13 times what?

And he says, I heard somebody say, helping people find their way back to God at least

13 times from the moment I walked in the doors to the time I had left, you know, your facility

today for church.

And in some ways that's awesome, right?

People could say it, right?

I mean, people really were hoping their people would find, their friends and family would

find their way back to God.

But we wanted to kind of move it from not just hoping our friends and family would find

their way back to God, but actually helping them find their way back to God.

And so, man, those frustrations and what we were seeing in the lives of our people really,

I think, is what kind of spurned us on to look for something that would be really practical,

simple, biblical.

And it just turns out that these five practices reflect the very things that Jesus did when

he walked the earth.

So that's what, that's what bless is all about.

It's just, you know, living like Jesus and being real specific and practical about what

it looks like to interact with people in hopes of sharing the love of Jesus with him in a

real practical way.

Yeah, I love it.

So it's even just for the audience that maybe isn't aware of the details of bless.

From an overview briefly, let's go ahead and hit the five, B-L-E-S-S.

What are these five elements that are tied into bless?

Yeah, for sure.

And again, you know, just to kind of lay the foundation too.

I mean, you look at Genesis 12.

What did, what did God say to Abraham?

Go from your country and your people, your father's household to a land I will show you.

I will make you in a great nation.

I will bless you.

I will make your name great.

You will be a blessing.

And through you, I will bless all nations on earth.

And, and that continues.

And, and when you start to look at bless, it's amazing how much you see that from Genesis

all the way through revelation.

Paul says that as heirs of Abraham, we too are blessed to be a blessing.

So yeah, real quick, if you look at B-L-E-S-S, it's the B is for begin with prayer.

The L is for listen.

All right.

The E is my favorite.

That's for eating, you know, sharing meals.

The S, the first S in bless is serve.

And then the second S in bless is story.

It's to tell your story.

So B-L-E-S-S, real simple, acrostic, begin with prayer, listen, eat, serve, and tell your

story.

Awesome.

So maybe there's some challenges around eat, eat together in digital space.

But remember, we're talking here, we're hypothesizing how can bless, how could that work as a, as

a digital missionary and how can we use this to equip maybe our people or maybe even ourselves

towards embracing a digital or a metaverse mission field.

But Hey, let's, let's, you know, just get some, go ahead.

I was going to say, Jeff, it's interesting because I was thinking about our talk today and

I came on that eat, you know, we'll talk a little bit more about this in depth, but just

since you brought it up, let's not forget the skills that we learned during the pandemic.

I mean, a lot of us were actually setting up and having meals with people over Zoom, right?

I mean, Hey, you know, it's noon.

I'm going to be eating.

You want to like get on Zoom and let's, let's have a meal together.

You eat where you are.

I eat where I am.

Why not still do that?

Right.

I mean, just because the pandemic's over doesn't, we mean, we can't still use some of those,

I think skills that were actually effective back then.

So anyway, sidebar.

Sorry about that.

No, beautiful.

Love it.

I mean, ironically, that's, that's why I brought a drink into the conversation because I was

like, Hey, might as well model this while we're actually having the conversation here.

But let me ask this question.

Let's just back up a little bit.

Bless it in the, in the physical realm.

How are you seeing like churches implement this, apply this people, individuals, like maybe

do you have some stories about how people are utilizing this bless framework?

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, you know, obviously a community we're, we're using it and we started talking and teaching

and training people in these five practices.

Ah, boy, I would say at least 10 years ago, the book wasn't actually published until 2021,

but it's something that we've seen people put into practice for, for a number of years

now.

And I think, um, you know, what we tried to do, and this is what we encourage churches

to do, you know, whether it's, uh, in-person digital, however you want to talk about it.

Uh, we encourage you to, you know, let's, let's focus on your leadership first, your staff

team, and really help them understand and begin to practice these bless, um, rhythms

first.

Uh, so you have some stories to tell.

And so it was really important for Dave and myself and our staff team to begin to look

at our own lives and, and really begin to put these into play in our own world before

we were talking about it and beginning to implement it on a, on a church wide scale.

And so, I mean, like one of the simple, uh, practices that I know, uh, Dave has is, and

myself too, is when I'm, when I'm journaling in the morning and I don't journal every day,

but you know, pretty good practice of reading scripture and reflecting and just spending

some quiet time with God on a, on a daily basis.

I actually have the word bless on, in my journal.

Now I, I have been a journal on my laptop.

And so I kind of have a set up sort of a template that I use for my, for my daily journaling for

reflecting on scripture and praying.

And in there is the word bless.

And underneath that is a list of people that, you know, on a regular basis, I'm saying, okay,

God, you know, give me opportunities to bless these people, whatever that might look like,

whether it's, you know, I see them, um, via online or in person, uh, throughout the course

of my day, give me an opportunity.

Some of those people are folks that live right across the street, right here.

Others are people that I'm in contact with, uh, through other connections, you know, throughout

the course of the week.

But that's one practice that, you know, anybody can put into place every day.

So I'm, I'm asking God, help me look for opportunities to bless those people.

But then also I know there's going to be sort of, um, impromptu opportunities throughout

the course of my day, also to bless the people that I come across, um, you know, wherever

that might be.

And so I'm also saying, God, help me also to keep in mind that I'm blessed to be a blessing.

And that might be with someone that I don't even, I don't even know that person yet.

I don't even, I don't even know who that might be, but give me a chance to have that mindset

of being a blessing to whoever it might be.

So, yeah, I mean, there's lots of things that, that we're putting into practice.

That would be, you know, just one example of what we try to do on a daily basis.

I had no idea the book was written in 2021.

Like, I feel like I've known about less for a, of like, I don't want to say a decade, but

it's been a minute, right?

Did so like, this was just like running in the background and you guys decided to put it

on paper?

Pretty much.

I mean, we, like I said, we put it into practice in our church for a number of years and, uh,

but it wasn't until, uh, January of 2021 when we actually, uh, got it published and, um,

yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's done pretty well.

I think people just are longing for something that's simple, memorable, practical, that allows

them and helps them do something they feel compelled to do.

And, and then let's face it, a lot of people feel guilty that they're not doing it too.

Right.

And, and yet so many of the methods, I think approaches that maybe we've been trained in

or, or learned when we were younger.

I mean, you know, you, I don't know what you're growing up was like, or your teen years or

twenties, but you know, it maybe is for spiritual laws, or maybe it was like the two diagnostic

questions of angels and explosion.

I mean, great methods, I think for a, for an era perhaps, but, um, I think people are looking

for something much more relational now that, uh, you know, so much of the focus, I think

of the past was a little, you know, it's, it's, it's about the, um, the verbal witness,

right?

You've got to tell them that's important, but all right.

So often people, they want to see it first.

They want to experience it with you first.

And that's, you know, why these five practices really are sort of, uh, I think the, the, the

fancy word is epigenetic.

They're like, there's a flow to them.

And there's a, there's a sequence to them and story is at the end for a reason, because

it's often takes time to build that credibility, build that relationship to the point where

hopefully a person will ask you to tell you, tell them your story.

No, this is, this is beautiful.

And you're right.

I don't know what that word epigenetic means.

I'll have to go back to the, to the play to listen to it again.

But I do think that some of the, the shifts that, that you're doing here, um, do represent

a digital audience.

Well, we, we find that people, uh, it's better when digital space, it's better to ask questions

than make statements.

If you want to have a conversation with someone, you look at, let them do the talking first,

because in listening to them, you actually build that trust.

Um, we, we also find that people often connect to community before they connect to Christ.

And this is often a little different than what we see in our physical churches, but in digitally,

uh, it's not uncommon, even in the metaverse, it's not uncommon to find atheists or agnostics

connected to your church and part of the community and through the relationships now getting them

connected into Jesus.

But they need that relationship.

They need that community before they'll even listen.

So a lot of these pivots that, that you're, you're addressing and looking at, my gosh, there's,

there's a lot of really intentional things that I think can speak well in digital or metaverse.

Well, let me ask this, like you, uh, you came out with this book and so maybe got some,

some larger exposure in, in the middle of COVID still shocked at that.

Um, what lessons did you learn in COVID?

Like, were there any, any takeaways?

Was there anything that was like, Hey, that or that?

Like what, what did you learn in the COVID season around bless?

Uh, that's a great question.

I think what we learned is, is, and I think what you're, you're sort of expressing it today

is that, um, bless works, you know, in or outside of a pandemic.

We actually wrote an article blessed during a pandemic.

And as we walked through these blessed practices, we started having to ask ourselves, okay,

are, are we limited to blessing people only through, um, you know, physical in-person contact?

And what we discovered was no.

And in some ways the, the pandemic afforded us additional opportunities.

I think the bless in ways, um, that, uh, we hadn't otherwise, uh, certainly the, the incredible

needs that occurred around us, uh, provide lots of ways.

You know, if you, if you start walking through these, uh, blessed practices, lots of ways

to serve people.

Um, but even, even, you know, when begin with prayer, for example, I mean, if you want to

start there, I mean, you know, the pandemic didn't stop us from praying.

Right.

I mean, and I think, uh, you know, when, when Jesus started his earthly ministry, you know,

Luke, the doctor and historian says that he went out in the mountain and he prayed first.

And, um, you know, we see that over and over again, you know, Jesus retreating, uh, to praying.

And I think, you know, we, we tend to minimize maybe the value of prayer in, in evangelism

or in, in reaching people.

Um, man, we tell people all the time, if you're not sure, um, who God is calling you

to reach or to bless like Jesus, just begin with prayer.

Um, you know, prayer is how you can ask God to help, you know, who to bless, but it's also

a way to begin blessing people.

Um, you know, I, a while back, somebody, somebody said something to me that that's really stuck

with, they said, they said, you know, John, uh, there are people around you every day who

have never once had someone pray for them.

Now, I don't know, Jeff, what it's like for you, but my, I mean, like my mom and dad, super

committed followers of Jesus, just wonderful people.

They both have been praying for me, uh, before I even, you know, was alive and continue to,

you know, to this very day, but there's people around us that have likely never had one person

pray for them.

And I don't mean, you know, stop them in the middle of the street and pray out loud and

raise one hand to the sky.

I just mean simply asking God to bless someone that you maybe are sitting across, um, uh,

the bus seats from, or someone that passes you by on your street, or maybe it's a neighbor

that you happen to catch when they're going through something, you know, we, we don't have

to stop them and, and lay hands on them in order to pray for them.

You can bless anyone.

You can bless anyone by praying for them, a neighbor, a coworker, or a friend and, and

prayer counts, you know?

And, um, I always tell people, if you're not sure how to pray for someone, just think

of it like the golden, uh, golden rule of prayer, prayer for them, pray for them as you would

have them, um, you know, pray for you.

Right.

Um, but again, you don't, in the, in the pandemic that didn't stop us from praying.

And there are certainly plenty of opportunities to pray for folks and bless them in that way.

Even if we didn't have physical contact.

Well, and in prayer, even to start it off, like there's, there's a little bit of a, uh,

humility in that, let me go before God, uh, and, and pray for others in that.

And that, that puts you in a, uh, in, in the humble state.

So you can listen, so you can serve.

And so it kind of gets you in that place, by the way, even talking, you know, as a digital

missionary, like there were, there were stats that came out.

I forget what it was.

We'll try to find the link and put it in, but, but Barna in the, in the COVID season

was finding stats that so many people who were called to Christ, there was this huge percentage

of people that were open to being prayed for digitally or open to the idea of prayer happening

digitally.

And, and to me, I remember talking about it.

It was like one of the biggest misses I think of the church in the COVID season that we really

didn't embrace the idea of praying as much because people were far more receptive to that than

consuming product for, you know, a church service online or, you know, other things that the

church was trying for that season.

Yeah.

I mean, I've always been amazed when, when even a simple, a simple, like a Facebook post

or, um, you know, whatever it might be, Instagram, Twitter, anything where you say, Hey, I'm,

I'm, I'm, uh, going to be praying today.

If there's something I could be praying for you about, please let me know.

I mean, that's not hard.

Right.

And yet people respond.

I mean, they, they, they, uh, want to be prayed for.

Not, I, you know, I honestly can't remember a time when I offered to pray for somebody and

they said, no, no, no, no, no, no.

I'm good.

You know, usually it's like, you know, they might not, they, maybe they won't have something

specific, but I don't think anybody's offended or hurt or put off by me offering to just,

Hey, I just, you know, I'd love to be praying for you today.

Something, something I could mention to God and pray on your behalf.

And even put in doing that social media post, how can I pray for you?

To be honest, some of the most engaging posts, conversational posts I have on social media

is when I post that, how, how can I pray for you?

And the thing that I love, even going back to a digital missionary, it's this idea of by

doing that when, when people, we know this 80, 80% of people, according to Barna, December

2020, uh, digital evangelism report, 80% of people that are called to Christ, when they

have spiritual questions, uh, they're going to either Google to find the answers to their

spiritual questions or they're going to their friends who they think will have the spiritual

answers to their questions.

And even something simple, like, how can I pray for you?

Even if no one's responding, the people that are seeing that are recognizing, Hey, here is

a person that is spiritually in tune.

And when they have questions, they'll go to that person.

And so being able to even put some of these posts out there, engage with people and just

humbling yourself in this situation and allowing God to control.

Oh my gosh, it's so beautiful.

Even in digital space.

I love this.

Well, one of the studies that Barna had, maybe this is the same one, I don't know, where he

asked our friends and neighbors what they would value in a person with whom they would talk

to about spiritual matters.

You heard this before?

No, go for it.

What he found was there were three qualities.

And this is not like our Christian neighbors and friends.

This is like all of our neighbors and friends.

Three qualities came to the service.

They, number one, want someone who will listen without judgment.

Shocking, right?

They want someone who will allow them to draw their own conclusions.

And then they want someone who can speak confidently about their own story.

Listen without judgment, draw my own conclusions, speak confidently about their own story.

I mean, people are looking for somebody to be a friend, right?

I mean, isn't that what we all want?

And so, again, I think this whole idea of praying for people that comes out of relationship.

I mean, Jesus was known as a friend of sinners.

He got in trouble for hanging out with the wrong people, right?

And, you know, I think, again, we just have to understand it's not our job to convince,

coerce, or cajole.

It's our job to love people the way Jesus loved people and then let God do the work of

convicting and converting, you know?

And I think the blessed practices just give us a little bit of a platform or a path to do that.

So true.

Let's pivot and let's swing over to the L, which is going to be a listen.

Let's describe for me, John, here.

Let's set it up.

What role does listen play in the idea of bless?

Well, and you've already touched on it, Jeff.

I think so many times the importance and significance and opportunity we have digitally to be good

listeners.

Because if, I mean, if people are known for anything online, whether it's, you know, Twitter,

Facebook, it's not about listening.

It's about telling and talking and saying, right?

And so what a witness we can be if we figured out ways to actually, you know, listen in the digital

world.

And, you know, Christians especially, right?

For talking and listening.

That, you know, asking questions and listening to people.

I mean, that was central to Jesus' life and teachings.

Martin Copenhaver wrote a book, Jesus is the question.

And he says that Jesus asked 307 questions and answered only three of them.

Now, I haven't gone through all the questions and the gospels to make sure that's accurate.

I assume it is.

But he asked 307 questions, answered only three.

Like, so ask 100 questions for every one you answer online and see if you don't make some

friends.

Am I right?

Wow, I had, where was that, where was the quote from, Martin?

You said it was Martin Coleman.

What was the book?

Do you know?

Martin Copenhaver, C-O-P-E-N-H-A-V-E-R.

The book is Jesus is the question.

And he says that Jesus asked 307 questions.

Jesus is the question.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jesus is the question.

Ask 307 answers.

Oh my gosh.

I'm shocked.

We'll put a link in the show notes.

Like that, that's incredible.

What a ratio.

I'd never, I'd never heard that one before.

That, that one's new to me.

But no, that, that, that, that, that's beautiful to put you almost in the point of, of being,

once again, being a learner.

I want, I want to learn through the situation.

Tell me about you and positioning yourself in such a way builds that trust that, that,

that allows that.

I mean, just even thinking about in digital context of, of the, of the hellfire that's

become Facebook and Twitter, if we positioned ourselves with humility, if we positioned

ourselves as, as a learner within those, these communities and, and meeting people, uh, and

through that, through the relationship, through listening point to Jesus.

Oh my gosh.

So good.

Yeah.

Well, you know, you've, you've heard it said like, if you want to be interesting, be interested.

Right.

I mean, it's just, it's just true, you know, ask questions.

And I mean, we've all been in those situations.

I'm sure you have Jeff, as have I, where, you know, you're talking to somebody and you

can just tell they're not really listening to you.

They're like looking almost past you in the conversation.

But on the other hand, you've also been in those situations where, man, somebody was just

like, they, they were dialed in and you felt genuinely listened to.

And I think that truly listening may be, uh, the kindest and most loving gift you can give

someone and, uh, you know, even during the pandemic, you know, I mean, as long as you were

socially distanced, you know, you could still talk to people when you were out and about.

And, and if you weren't comfortable leaving your home, then you could use FaceTime or zoom

or, you know, try and make it a phone call.

Remember those voice to voice phone calls.

Yeah.

Um, so yeah, listening, man, I, I, I just think you got to land there for a little bit and

there's lots of opportunity to listen and the power of being a good listener.

I, I have so much, I have so much work to do in that area, man, because I'm always thinking

about what I'm going to say next while you're saying what you're saying.

And, uh, what a powerful witness, uh, if we can become more like Christ and, and how we

listen and what a tremendous way to truly bless people.

We just underestimate the power of listening to people and how desperate they are for someone

to love them in that way.

And I don't even know if I should like have a follow-up comment after that.

She's just even talking about, uh, listening.

Probably a question, right?

Probably.

Yeah.

Um, but I mean, here is the, the danger is digitally is if you surround yourself in

an echo chamber, you're not really listening at least to anybody that's saying anything different

than, than you.

And so the danger of these algorithms and Facebook and Twitter is that they give you people that

sound like you and, and, and talking to someone who sounds like you doesn't give you the

opportunity to listen to people who are different than you.

Uh, and so there's, there, there's ways to overcome that.

And, and, and if we are going to be digital missionaries, I think that we need to be intentional

about overcoming the algorithm and intentionally going into Facebook groups, intentionally connecting

on hashtags on Twitters or in, in, uh, Twitter spaces and whatever their communities are called

and, and start to engage in areas in with people that are outside of the echo chambers that

we are.

And once again, if that's infused with prayer, which is where we're supposed to start, the

humility that comes with listening to people outside of our echo chamber suddenly becomes

a lot more effective.

And so thank you.

So far we're two for two here on digital missionary.

What were you going to say, John?

Let's just begin with prayer and let's, let's just do that.

Right.

I mean, think how much progress we can make.

Um, man, one of the most, um, fascinating things we saw, which I think a lot of churches

did was, um, the power of, uh, alpha, the alpha course online, particularly during the

pandemic.

And you've probably heard, uh, Nikki Gumbel talk about how prior to COVID, no way you can't

do alpha online.

It's not going to work.

You got to have the face to face, got to have the meal, all that, blah, blah, blah.

And suddenly the pandemic, they got to change like everybody else.

They're doing these alpha courses online.

And what do you know, uh, people are like coming to Christ, supernatural stuff's happening.

People are praying bold prayers.

I mean, just remarkable, remarkable stuff.

And whether in person or online to me, like the secret to alpha is, is listen.

It's like just getting Christ followers like me and you to just for one time, not feel like

we have to be the shell answer person.

Right.

And just let people talk, let them work through their faith to the point where they kind of

convict them, but the Holy spirit convicts them.

Right.

And, uh, yeah, so listening is so important.

We could just talk about that all day.

Totally.

Let's shift gears to number three.

All right.

So we've got begin with prayer.

We've got, listen, the E in the conversation is eat together.

This will be interesting.

Eat together.

Why do I feel like it's a snack?

Yeah.

Like, so it was, and I've often wondered this, like, is, is, does it, is actual chomping?

I would normally make fun of something like this.

It's like, do we have to actually breathe the same air molecules to be in community?

But so, but you've got intentionality around eat.

Why the intentionality with the eat word other than it fits well within bless?

I think you and I should like go grab a snack from the refrigerator right now and bring

it back.

You can like live this way.

Or does this count?

Maybe the LaCroix counts.

I don't know.

Um, yeah, you know, again, going back to the life of Christ, I mean, he ate all the time

with people.

It's a, it's remarkable when you think about the, the number of meals that he shared,

um, you know, with folks, tax collectors and centers, right.

Known for that.

But I think just, uh, experientially, we all know, man, there's something really special

about sharing a meal with people that moves almost any relationship past acquaintance towards

friendship faster than just about anything else you can do.

We've, I've had that experience where, yeah, I didn't really know somebody.

And my wife's like, Hey, we're going to go out with the Smiths Friday night.

And you're like, Oh, okay.

You know, you're maybe excited.

Maybe not.

You go, you have a great time.

And they're like your best friends, you know, there's just something about that shared meal

that I think really fast tracks relationships.

And, um, well, I mean, Jeff, I would ask you, you know, I mean, think about the last time

you were asked by someone to join them for a meal.

Can you, can you think of it?

It was, whether it was at their house or at a restaurant, you remember that?

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I would even do a, a, a, a one up, like there, there's a, when the guy

who does my world building for virtual reality, his name's Michael used to Venice.

He lives, uh, maybe 90 minutes away from me.

And so he's up in Fort Lauderdale.

I'm in Miami.

He's, he's like the metaverse.

Uh, he's the metaverse pastor for a church in California.

And so, uh, was, I was on discord with him the other day.

And, um, and I honestly, we, I mean, like I said, we live like an hour away from each

other, hour and a half.

I haven't seen him in like four months.

And, uh, and, and, and he said, when we're on discord, he's like, Hey, when are the next

time you're up here, I want to spend some time with you?

And it's just the, the nature of reaction was, dude, I talk to you all the time, but

there is something unique in that physical experience in, in that, that sitting down and the sharing.

And so I was like, Hey, you know, there, there is something to that.

I can see some validity behind that.

Yeah.

And, and, and it was blessed.

I mean, it was a blessing to you just to even asked you haven't even had your meal yet, probably, but the fact that he wanted to.

So, and again, I think, you know, let's not forget some of the digital or online skills we learned during the pandemic are still useful.

And I think, again, that sharing a meal with somebody over zoom or whatever platform you might be using, we can still do that right miles apart.

And again, it's, it's, it's, it's also a way to bless people.

Um, I've also heard, I forgot who it was.

Was it Alan Hirsch or, uh, I can't remember.

Talk about the fact that, you know, the beautiful thing about this practice is that, you know, we all eat about 21 meals every week, right?

Three a day, seven days of the week.

You know, this is something that you're already doing.

You don't have to add anything to your busy schedule in order to bless somebody.

Just instead of eating by yourself, ask somebody to join you.

And again, I think online, like if you're, I mean, we're all working out of the house, right?

But you're still going to stop and eat.

So call somebody up and say, Hey, how about noon?

Let's just take a break at the same time and, and share a meal.

So, um, yeah, I, I, I think sharing a meal, whatever that looks like is a powerful way to bless the people around you.

And, uh, again, definitely listen, share a meal, eat together.

You know, one of the things that I love about the idea of the eating, um, is, is it brings out.

Uh, intentionality to not work.

Like, it's very hard to, to work while you're eating.

Like, you know, I mean, I guess if you're by yourself and you're, you're chomping on something, but if you've got somebody in front of you, um, like it, there is an intentionality while, while you're eating to how are the kids?

What's going on?

Tell me about your life in backstories.

And, and, and, and there's more, there's more relationships centered around that.

For me, it's, it's one of the reasons why, like, you know, I, I love Starbucks.

I actually having good coffee recently.

I don't know that I love Starbucks, but Miami only has Starbucks or Cuban bakeries.

And so I constantly find myself at Starbucks, um, having a conversation with someone digging in.

And so for me, the idea of, of that, that relationship in, in the physical realm is, is Starbucks.

I think there's a challenge for us digitally.

Can we carve out time to actually have a relationship level conversation digitally?

I mean, yeah, we can jump on VR, put on a goggle headset and have a conversation with someone.

We can play around video games and connect with people.

Like there's plenty of, of those level conversations.

There's plenty of that relationship stuff that's happening.

But can we intentionally carve out time, not, you know, setting aside what we're playing with whatever video game it is,

but instead now actually having a conversation.

How, how's your wife?

How are the kids?

How's life?

Um, what's going on?

How's God teaching you?

What, what's God showing you?

Like, I think there has to be an intentionality around this that I think really the idea of, of eating and blessing is.

It's not, it's not something that's haphazard, but I think there's intentionality centered around that, especially with digital.

No, I, I love how you're saying that, Jeff.

And I think, you know, most of us know too, and, and there's something that makes conversation easier or, um, more likely to happen when you're, when you're drinking or, or eating.

I don't know what it is, you know, but you, you know, you go to a party, yeah, give me a drink and you're standing around.

If you don't have, there's just, yeah, there's something about that.

I think that stimulates conversation in a, in a really unique and powerful way.

And you also brought to mind too, you know, if you're thinking about like, um, doing this digitally, one of the things I think we also learned, you've probably talked about is that when you're, when you're doing this, like right now, you're, you're talking to me in my, talking to me in my context.

Right.

And so you're, you're seeing what's going on behind you or what's not going on, but you, you have a different feel for like, oh, I could kind of see where Ferguson lives.

You know what I mean?

Like, interesting.

What, what about that helps you get to know me better?

I mean, you've got all these books behind you, right?

I'm going, man, Jeff must be a scholar.

Look at those books back there.

I used to run a Christian bookstore in fairness, probably not a scholar, more of a salesman, but that's, that's another conversation for another day.

It's just the, the notion that the, the, this digital way of, of connecting also allows us to see people in their context.

I mean, you know, you've, we've all seen all the funny videos of the little kids running in when the guy's doing an interview on national TV, you know, that kind of stuff.

And it's just, there's something endearing about that and also helps us, I think, learn about people in a way we might not otherwise.

Beautiful.

All right.

So here we are.

We've got begin with prayer.

We've got, listen, we've got eat together.

The first S, number four here is serve.

I'm looking forward to this one.

Serve.

So start to unpack serve for us.

Yeah, sure.

Yeah.

So, I mean, again, going, going back to the, look, what we did is looking at the life of Christ.

What, what did he do?

How did he bless people?

And, you know, Matthew 10, Matthew 20, 28, Jesus said, the son of man did not come to be served, but to what?

Right.

To serve.

And so, you know, I think Jesus modeled this idea that if you'll begin with prayer, eat with people, you'll then discover how you can best serve them.

You know, praying and listening and eating together is like the laying the groundwork for the serving.

And it ensures, I think, that the serving is about the person being served and not the person doing the serving.

You know, I think a lot of times we'll, we'll serve and because we feel better.

Well, that's, that's not bad, but is the serving actually benefiting the person that you're serving?

A simple example, in a while back, our neighbor had surgery on her leg and we're not super close to our neighbors, but we're trying to get to know them, trying to bless them, you know, begin with prayer, listen, sharing some food from time to time.

But she had surgery on her leg.

And so my wife, you know, Lisa and I went to the store, put together a simple care package for her and gave it to her, you know, not a big deal.

But again, it was a way that we could, we could serve her.

And, you know, that's a person I have a relationship with.

Some of us, because they're our neighbors, you know, we live in an apartment building, so we're proximities close.

You know, a different example, like we've got these neighbors across the street.

I hardly know them at all.

But the other day, my wife said, hey, you know, that I just found out that he works for the Red Cross.

And this was, and I thought, that's kind of cool that he works for the Red Cross.

And I was at a bakery down the street, and there's this incredible bread that we buy.

It just tastes so stinking good.

And I go into the bakery, and I notice there's two loaves left.

And there's just something, because I try to keep bless in my mind.

But I felt like the Holy Spirit was prompting me, don't buy one loaf, buy two.

And drop one off to your, you know, new acquaintance across the street that work for the Red Cross and just thank him for his work.

And I'm like, no, I'm not going to do that, you know, initially.

But then I'm like, well, why not?

That's like a $4 way to bless somebody.

And if somebody did that for me, I'd think like that was like the coolest thing ever, you know?

And so I just grabbed that extra loaf, stopped by and said, you know, my wife just told me the other day you work for the Red Cross.

I think that's really cool.

I just want to say thanks.

And I love this bread.

If you like it, got it from the bakery down the street, you'll probably like it too.

I didn't, you know, like try to convert the guy or even mention, you know, anything about church or that I'm a Christian or whatever.

It's just, you know, looking for those small little opportunities to serve people in practical ways.

And I think it's just a powerful way to love them and bless them.

Yeah.

You got to listen, right?

To be able to know how to serve on the flip side.

You know, I mean, in my life, just recently I had COVID.

And one of my online friends who I've never met physically actually sent me, I forget what service it was.

Maybe it was Uber Eats or whatever.

DoorDash.

Yeah.

I think it was DoorDash.

He DoorDashed me my favorite candy.

I mean, literally a guy showed up with a grocery bag.

And here you go, sir.

I didn't order anything.

And the guy just walks away and I open it up.

And my friend, who I've never met physically, sent me DoorDash.

And so I texted him.

And he's like, yeah, you talked on social media about what your favorite candy was.

And here you go.

And I'm like, dude, thank you.

Like, I'm just blown away at the opportunity that he had had to do something.

Now, I mean, we had a great relationship even in digital space.

But it's that type of opportunity where, you know, maybe it's easy to look at John's story

and to say, yeah, but I'm in another city.

I'm in another state.

I don't know anything about these people.

I think the challenge is how can you listen well enough to people to know them at that point?

And then creatively, how can you serve them in such a way?

Yeah.

I mean, DoorDash is an option.

It maybe is an expensive option.

But there are other things you can do.

It's a great example.

It takes 10 seconds, right, to go to Starbucks.com and send somebody a $5 gift card.

And you can bless them that way, serve them that way.

I mean, I don't know.

I'm just, I'm blown away.

My daughter lives in New York and occasionally, and she's finishing college.

And, you know, occasionally in the past four years that she's been at school, she'll need a ride or something.

I can call up an Uber from Chicago and have her picked up, you know, in Manhattan, wherever she might be, and make sure she gets a ride home without, you know, even getting up off my chair.

So, the opportunities to bless now, I mean, serve people in, like, tangible ways.

Like, yeah, and I love your story.

It's getting the candy like that.

That's such a cool little surprise.

Yeah.

I mean, and the beauty is, as an individual, I wasn't expecting it.

You know, and I've told this story before, and I don't know that this is serve, but it's kind of weird.

Like, when you're looking at the wall behind me, I mean, there's maybe 100 Funko Pops literally on the backdrop behind me, if you're willing to count them.

I think I'm somewhere in the 80s.

A lot of those I didn't buy.

As a matter of fact, the first Funko Pops I ever bought or that I ever received, I have no idea where they came from.

To this day, someone sent me Funko Pops.

I don't know who it was, and it just became a thing.

And all of a sudden, like, people are giving me Funko Pops, and someone was showing up without names and IDs, and it's like, okay, cool.

I'll take the Funko Pops, and I'll make a display out of it.

That's awesome.

But it's this type of, man, if we really believe that digital is a community, and we're really taking advantage of praying and listening for people, serving is a natural step out of it.

And so engaging and serving people, I mean, if we really want them to listen to us, we have to serve them.

And that's going to build that trust that we want.

And what's interesting, just as an aside, this has nothing to do with serving in the building.

You know, this doesn't have anything to do with serving in guest services or worship.

Like, those things are important, and being part of something like that, a community like that, is good.

And there's ways to even serve in digital churches.

But when we're talking about serving here, it's serving individuals, which I think is so crucial as we're looking at digital missionaries.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

And, you know, if it involves food, like you said there, you've pretty much nailed three of the five practices.

You listen because you knew what food that person wanted.

You're delivering food.

And tell me that's not serving you, right?

I mean.

Oh, yeah.

All right.

Hey, well, let's wrap up here.

So we've got begin with prayer, listen, eat together.

We've got serve, and we've got number five is coming in share stories.

So unpack share stories for us.

Yeah, man.

Yeah, the S is for story.

And, again, you know, like you said, begin with prayer, listen, eat together, look for tangible ways to serve.

And then, finally, when people were ready to listen, Jesus would share his story.

He would share the gospel, and we can, too.

You know, I think of when Doubting Thomas came to Jesus and asked, how can we know the way?

And Jesus said, hey, I'm the way.

I'm the truth.

I'm the life.

No one comes to the Father except through a relationship with me.

And, you know, what we find is that when you befriend and bless people, there's a good chance they're going to want to know your story.

You know, they might ask you what makes you different or why do you do what you do, especially if they've seen a pattern of you blessing them.

And then you can tell them, you know, how the love of Jesus has changed your life.

And, you know, I think kind of walking through this idea of begin with prayer, listen, eat, serve, and then looking for opportunities to tell your story.

And I would say, too, story needs to kind of go both ways.

You want to hear their story, right, as well as have the chance to tell your story.

But I think if we do these sort of tangible, practical, friendly ways of sharing the love of Jesus, then we can move from like, as we say, a community from hoping people will find their way back to God to actually helping them find their way back to God.

Imagine all the work we've done, imagine the relationship we've built before we even get to the place of sharing Jesus.

Like this is not, you know, casting seed on thorny ground.

This is, I have prayed, I have a relationship where I've listened, I have a relationship where I've been intentionally asking questions and even sitting down to eat with them.

I have a relationship where I've served them.

And now once I've gone through this level, this is where I'm now, hey, can I tell you about Jesus?

Like this is not echo chamber screaming from the rooftops, nor is this posting some really cheesy meme that talks about why Jesus is important in our lives.

This is like, I am in community with this person and through the trust of that person into me and to the community that we have, I'm now sharing Jesus.

Like this is, this is a really, I think, important tip.

I'm assuming you guys, this may be the big word I didn't understand earlier, but like you were very intentional about having this being the last piece, right?

Like it wouldn't make sense to put, share your story up at, you know, above being with prayer, right?

Right.

And yeah.

And just through whatever reason it happened to work out that it spells this word bless.

Yeah.

And, but yeah, I mean, it's, you want the story to be the last one, quite honestly.

And it's not that you're not at times aren't going to have an opportunity maybe to tell your story earlier on.

But I think especially for a lot of us who grew up and it was all about the story and it was all about, you know, the verbal witness.

You got to like tell people, I think this kind of gives all of us, hey, relax, you know, build that relationship, you know, and prayer actually counts as part of your missionary activity, right?

Listen, share a meal, look for opportunities to serve.

And then when the opportunity comes, yeah, tell your story, ask them to share their story.

And it just, it's much, it's so much more natural.

And, you know, somebody said the other day, they said, you know, these bless practices are like a remedial course on how to be a good friend.

I'm like, yeah, you know, I think you're pretty much right.

Isn't that true?

It's like, you know, Jesus was known as a friend of sinners.

He befriended them by blessing them.

And that's, I think, what he wants us to do too.

So if we, yeah, I want to see more people doing that.

So I don't know if it's digital missionary framework or if it's just a digital friend framework or just friend in general.

But man, what a great lineup here.

Begin with prayer.

We want to listen.

We need to eat together.

We need to be intimate.

We need to serve, position ourselves in a place of serving.

And we need to share the story of Christ and share about who Jesus is with these people.

Man, I don't know.

I think bless may make a little sense here to be a digital missionary, a framework for this.

Jeff, as you continue to explore that and learn more about that, if you get stories, man, I'd love to hear what people are saying and what they think about how this can work in the metaverse.

Yeah.

So here's what we're doing.

I'll even transition right off of that.

We've got your brother, Dave Ferguson, is jumping in a roundtable in a conversation centered around blesses digital missionaries.

And that's happening Monday, May 23rd, 9 p.m. Eastern.

So we'll put links in the show notes towards that.

But we're unpacking that even at a deeper level.

And we're going to be also, you know, he'll be available for Q&As talking about it.

But I really, I believe this.

I think that we're going to build two different, you know, I'll give you some inside scoops.

Like if you've made it this long, if you made it to the end of the podcast, you're like the loyal people, right?

So I'll give you a tip right here.

We're going to be rolling out two different frameworks for digital missionaries here, probably closer to the fall through DCN.

One of them, I think, is we're going to adapt Tyler Sansom's approach towards more influencers for people that want to go big.

But to be honest, the average person doesn't need to understand how to read the algorithms of YouTube.

The average person needs to understand this right here, bless.

And so I'm excited to continue to work through this and to start to platform this idea and give opportunities for some of these digital planters that are out there,

some of these digital pastors that are looking for tangible ways to start to train their people.

Like what some great processes here with this and cannot wait to see what our DCN family really starts to do with some of these bless practices and ideas.

And so, John, thank you for this.

This is, to be honest, like I've been theorizing some of this in my head, but I was really looking forward to this conversation just to start to piece this together.

And this has been a great time.

So thank you for doing it.

Same here, Jeff.

Really fun talking to you about this and love your energy.

I mean, your enthusiasm and excitement is contagious.

So it's easy to talk to you about it.

So thanks so much.

It's great.

Awesome.

So, hey, as we're landing the plane here, man, any closing thoughts?

No, man, I would just say continue to, you know, when you're reading through the Gospels, as you do, just look for these practices.

I think anybody would be amazed by how they see them over and over again.

It's almost like, you know, when you buy a new vehicle, you know, you get like a Honda, whatever, CRV or Pilot.

And all of a sudden it seems like everybody has a CRV or a Pilot.

I think when you start looking at the Gospels through this lens, you'll be blown away by how frequently Jesus went about blessing people in these five ways.

It just kind of helps remind you that this is not only a good idea.

This is actually Jesus' idea.

Look for it in Scripture and you'll find it there.

By the way, everybody in Miami drives a Jeep Wrangler.

I can officially say that now that I do drive a Jeep Wrangler.

But, hey, we're going to land a plane on this.

John, next time I'm in Chicago, we've got to sit down and actually, like, have a meal, evidently, because that's what Bless says.

Let's do it.

We've got some of the best restaurants anywhere, as you know.

There are some good ones.

I can attest to that.

But we're going to wrap.

So for John, once again, John, thank you for being on.

For John, this is Jeff with the Church Digital, Digital Church Network, and a bunch of other fun stuff.

Thanks for jumping on the podcast.

Check out the show notes for all the references.

And we'll see you soon here on the Church Digital Podcast.

Y'all have a good day.