EP223: Leonardo Blair & the Next Future Church

The church is right now going through a very, very difficult transition, and there is a threat to older adults, there is a threat to our young people, and what we need to be doing is exactly what Digital Church Network is doing.

We need people, everybody that's connected to Christendom, whether you're a seminary, whether you're a denomination, whatever it is that you do, everybody needs to find ways and means to collaborate and ask themselves the question, how are we going to survive?

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church, but more than TED for Tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field? Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this?

Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church plant, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, digitally and physically.

Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple making that will revolutionize your church.

And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed.

Hey, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. This is Jeff Reed, founder of the Church Digital, Digital Church Network, Leadership Network, working with Metaverse Church Next, all sorts of fun stuff.

I could just sit here rattling off the opportunities left and right, but it is a pleasure to be here with you for episode 223.

And I'm excited about this episode. It's not often when you meet people.

Listen, as crazy as we talk about this idea of digital church and metaverse church, there are plenty of critics.

There are plenty of people who say, yeah, hey, this isn't a real thing. This isn't a valid thing.

Hey, Jeff, what you're doing is actually sin, taking people out of the bride of Christ.

Yeah, that was actually a conversation. That was pre-COVID, of course.

But the heart of this really today is a conversation with somebody who's like, hey, there's something here.

And honestly, anytime somebody's like, hey, you may be right, I just want to have put up on the podcast because that means like, hey, let's actually celebrate that somebody else is actually thinking the same thing that we are.

And even in this conversation, having this conversation publicly.

So we're going to dig in a little bit here into Digital Church Network and the FAM, the online community that we've created as a result of it.

And so if you've not checked into FAM, if you haven't seen what's happening there, here's what I want you to do.

Go to digitalchurch.network slash join FAM.

Digitalchurch.network slash join FAM.

Here's where your ability to create a free account for FAM, our online community, where we're resourcing, where we're helping, we're coaching.

We are caring for church innovators, church people that are thinking outside of the box, whether you're planting a church or whether you're wrestling with digital discipleship and what that could look like in your physical church, in your digital church, in your metaverse church.

And you're, you know, fill in the blank church, whatever you got, like this is the place where we're bringing the crazies together.

And I've said it so often.

A crazy person by themselves is crazy.

A crazy people gathered together with other crazy people.

Well, that's a force to be reckoned with.

And that's what we're aiming for here with FAM is to gather together the crazies, help them convince other people they need to be crazy too.

And so, which even gets a little bit into this conversation because we may have met a new crazy person here in this conversation.

And so we're bringing into it here, Leonardo Blair.

So, Leonardo, thank you very much for jumping onto the podcast here.

It's my pleasure, Jeff.

My pleasure.

So, Leonardo is a writer, is a featured, a senior features reporter.

That's the official title.

I had butchered it earlier and Leonardo corrected me.

But he writes for Christian Post.

And so I had the honor at some point of connecting with Leonardo because he started asking some questions about digital churches.

And actually wrote an incredible, very long, detailed article about the idea of digital expressions of church and metaverse expressions of church without buildings.

And to my knowledge, at this point, this is the most detailed article I have seen on the idea of digital and metaverse church.

And so talking with him, obviously, there was an immediate connection and it connected him with Chesley Lundy, co-founder of DCN and some others.

And so, Leonardo, man, it's exciting just even that you were seeing some of this stuff and excited about it.

But I would love to maybe unpack some of this, learn a little bit more about you and let you even share a little bit of what you're seeing and some of what you learned as you were writing through this article.

Does that sound good?

For sure.

For sure.

Awesome.

Hey, so even just to get started, how did you get into journalism?

How did you get connected with the Christian Post?

Like, tell us a little bit of that story.

Yeah, no.

So I, my long-term goal was, is to become a famous writer.

When I was in high school, I studied these amazing 18th century writers like Nathaniel Hawthorne.

You know, those types of writers that I always kind of, you know, looked at these guys as really, really smart people.

And I studied their backgrounds and I studied their backgrounds and found that many of them started out as journalists.

So journalism is sort of like, for me, a practical way to write until you get to that stage where you're able to sort of, you know, live on your creativity.

So, so that's kind of what the initial plan was.

But I'm a very curious person.

You know, I'm interested in everything from business to science to math.

You name it.

I'm, that's me.

So I, I studied, uh, studied media in undergrad and then went to Columbia, uh, afterwards, um, to, to study investigative journalism.

And I was, you know, I was doing it for a while and I left and started doing, um, communications like, you know, international relations.

And then the Lord actually called me back and, you know, said, you know, you, you needed to, to come back to journalism.

And he led me to the Christian post.

So that's kind of how I, um, got connected, uh, you know, through a dream.

Are you exclusively writing for Christian post?

Do you write for, for other sources at the same time?

Like what, what does that look like?

Listen, the work that we do at the Christian post is so vast.

There is so much work to do.

There's so much analysis.

I mean, every single day, I mean, the work, you know, the work is never done.

So yes, I, I write exclusively for the Christian post.

Awesome.

Now, do you consider your, like you wrote an article about planting churches in digital and metaverse space.

Like this is, this is a radical concept.

It's fun.

It's cool.

We talk about it all the time here, but like, do you consider yourself technological,

like a technology type guy?

How did you, where did this idea come from?

Like, how did you end up being a writer to a writer talking about this, this really bleeding

edge concept?

Yeah.

I mean, so as, as somebody who is a trained investigative journalist, um, I, I love data.

Uh, so we, I, I've, I've been tracking data on the church for a long time.

Um, in 2019, I wrote a story about, um, internet pastors, you know, we were tracking all this,

uh, information about, you know, the church membership going down.

But I noticed that, you know, if you look at, uh, you know, some of the, the, the, the, the,

the internet preachers, they would have millions of people following them while, you know, the

church membership was going down.

So I started that conversation in 2019, did a report and, you know, listen to, you know,

these younger, uh, personalities talk about how, you know, when they started out, they were

rejected, uh, you know, pastors didn't want to, you know, let them come speak in their church,

but they had this audience and they had the air of people who were looking for something

more and, um, you know, shortly after that, um, I think about a year or maybe nine months

after I did that article, uh, COVID hit.

And, you know, that data, you know, started showing how quickly pastors started to pivot.

So everybody who was, oh, I don't want a Facebook page, you know, this, you know, tech is demonic

or whatever it is, everybody went into survival mode and they started paying attention to, um,

what was happening online.

Yeah.

I just pulled the article on, on the internet preachers.

And so we've got links to that in the show notes.

And yeah, that was June 24th, 2019.

So that's nine months away from, you know, the end of the world there in, in March, 2020.

And, and, and it's interesting to me how, you know, I was even reflecting back and joking

earlier, like I had, I had a good friend who was a pastor in my life that basically November,

December, 2019, uh, called me up and was like, Hey, Jesus, or Hey, Hey, Jeff, stop sinning.

Uh, you need to confess the sin in your life and stop taking people out of the bride of Christ

by doing, you know, these digital churches.

You need to, you know, and basically it was digital church equals sin, confess that sin

and remove it from your life.

And this was a friend of mine.

Uh, we grew up together and so it was like, Hey, uh, I'm not, I don't, I don't know that

I agree with you.

And, you know, what's interesting was I didn't hear from that guy for about three or four months

until, uh, you know, sometime around that March 16th, when the end of the world came

and, uh, and he was like, Hey Jeff, can you, can you help us?

Our buildings are shut down.

Can you help us start to broadcast those services so we can do church digitally?

And, and, you know, I did, I kind of maybe rubbed it in his face a little bit, you

know, sent him an invoice for the time, but, uh, certainly able to help through it.

Hey, so, um, so you were, you, you were looking at some of this stuff, you know, pre, pre COVID

wrestling with this COVID hits.

Um, and so now you're seeing this, this rush of everybody doing things digitally.

We're coming out of the COVID season, wherever you think we are in that, in this model.

And now you're, you're, you're, you're discovering maybe this new model, this new paradigm of,

of church.

Like how did you progress from people, internet pastors doing this stuff?

And how did that, that grow and evolve to, to writing an article about metaverse and,

and virtual reality and, and, and a lot of this is what you're getting into the second

article.

So kind of walk me through the story of how you got to the story.

Yeah.

Um, you, you know, COVID actually disrupted everyone.

And so, because the Christian post, um, is sort of, is a digital publication.

Like we started out as digital.

So we're, we like, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're digital natives basically.

So while everybody else was scrambling, we were already comfortable in that space.

And, um, you, you know, I was listening to, uh, different pastors, uh, talk, I was doing

research.

I found DJ Soto's church, uh, the VR church.

And, um, you, you, you know, I, I, I listened to, um, I can't remember her name, but she has

a church down in Florida and she works for Facebook.

Um, she was also on a podcast as well.

Yeah.

Nona Jones, Nona Jones.

Right.

So they were having this conversation about, um, how, um, the meta, the, the, the, the,

the, the, the metaverse, uh, the, the meta church is going to replace the mega church.

And I, I started digging into that a little bit.

And, and then I just simply started connecting the data from, you know, research companies

like Barna, Pew, you know, and just, you know, my own personal experience just reported

on story after story of churches shutting down churches that could no longer sustain themselves.

And, and that was, was, was sort of worrying to me, uh, you know, trying to think about

the future, how will the church survive?

So that's, that's how I, I got into it.

Yeah, that was a great podcast with, with Nona Jones, Kerry Newhoff, uh, Kerry Newhoff

podcast, I'm pretty sure with, with Nona and DJ and, um, you know, DJ has been a friend.

He's been on this, this podcast a lot.

And, uh, you know, he's talked about how a lot of attention really came on, onto what

he's, he's been doing, you know, through, through COVID, but even amplified by COVID, um, the

announcement of, of meta becoming the new name of Facebook and, and, uh, the video of, um,

Zuckerberg.

I think Zuckerberg did a live broadcast, I think November, maybe 2021, um, talking about

the change of the name from Facebook to meta to be the umbrella company, even, even life

church, which was their announcement that they were doing metaverse church services, which

was the largest church, uh, you know, at the time, even to this point, it's the largest

church is actually doing something in the metaverse.

I actually, I mean, I can remember, uh, with the Zuckerberg, I saw traffic on the website,

on the church digital increase about, about five times.

We had a five X increase just with that announcement.

As everybody started searching, Oh, what is this metaverse thing?

That, that Zuckerberg's talking about was church, like in that space.

And then I was actually, it was funny.

I was actually on jury duty, um, the week that, um, life church made their announcement

and traffic on the website blew up 10 times, uh, even more on top of just because everybody

was searching for more information about what this could look like.

And it's interesting how there's, there's a lot of interest, um, centered around this idea

of did a digital and metaverse churches, social media churches, streaming churches,

churches, and, and, and, and what this looks like.

I'm just curious as, as what you've done with Christian, uh, post and, and, and the publishing

of that, how has this been, been received?

What, what has been some of the response from, from people kind of digging into what this looks

like?

Yeah, I, I think it has started a very, very big conversation.

I have done several, uh, radio, uh, morning shows, um, on this topic, um, people who are

interested in knowing more about how the metaverse works, uh, you, you know, so it's, it's, I,

I, I, I failed to mention it and it's, it's, when I got into reporting on this subject as

well, a part of it came from me interviewing pastors, like during COVID, I was talking to

different pastors and we were always tracking, okay, when are the churches going to open up?

When our church is going to open up?

And I'm not going to name the pastor who said this to me.

He has one of the largest churches in the country.

And he said to me, you know, the people are comfortable.

They don't want to come back to church.

They like online church.

That's basically what he said to me.

They like on online church.

And I was going to make that into a headline, but I said, you know what?

I don't want people to think I'm trying to destroy the church, but I think people have, um, people

have sort of adapted way more than the, the church leadership think they have, uh, you know,

we, I was looking also at another study from Barna, um, that, that talked about the black church

specifically.

And they mentioned that, uh, you know, black Christians were more comfortable with a hybrid

model, you know, the same way people prefer having a hybrid model of work right now.

Uh, you know, so I, I, I, I, I feel like we're, we're people, some people might be sitting

back waiting for the past or the pre COVID, uh, dynamic to return, but I don't think based

on the data that we've been seeing, um, that it's, it's, it's going to come back.

It's, it's, it's something different.

Yeah, I, I, I would agree with that.

We, we talk about that.

I'm, I'm just curious, the pastor that was like, people aren't coming back.

They like the online.

He, he said that in a negative context, I'm assuming, right?

It wasn't, yay, people aren't coming back.

Like he was perceiving a negative.

I'm not sure.

I wouldn't say it was negative because this pastor is very smart and he is, uh, you know,

he's, he's, he's very flexible.

He has a good team, uh, you know, so I, I, I think he was just acknowledging, uh, the transition

that was taking place.

Good, good for him.

You know, if, if he was assuming it was positive or seeing it, seeing it as an opportunity instead

of a threat, you know?

And that, that's really a lot of the challenge.

I feel that, excuse me, that people are seeing it more as a threat to the normality of what

was, and that the, the healthy, the only healthy model of a church is one that's existing in

physical space that meets every Sunday at 9am, um, which, which by the way is, is, you know,

arguably a product to be consumed to say when we like that, that online broadcast is a consume

product.

And if that's the only thing that we're doing, uh, to, to make a disciple, well, then that's

really maybe a larger issue.

That's not just about digital.

I think it's about physical as well.

And my hope is, you know, coming through this COVID season, that churches would learn that

what we're called to do and how to be effective, to do ministry in 2020, to reach people and

to disciple people here in the 2020s, even, even post COVID, like it's more than just the

one hour on Sunday.

Uh, and, and, and hopefully whether it's, and I don't even care if it's physical, if it's

digital, like these, these, the technology is just tools in the same way that the brick

and mortar building is a tool, but we've got to do more than just the service.

And this is, I mean, this is really why I loved, you know, your article.

Cause you, you delved into the exposure of, of what these digital churches are doing beyond

Sunday, um, and, and, and how that's effective in helping to create these disciples and to

even leverage and multiply what's happening in the, in the churches.

Are you, um, like in general, what were, were the people you were talking with?

Were they like this, the, the, uh, the response kind of the feedback around, around the article

here with digital churches, uh, when you're on these, these talk shows in the morning and

when you're doing the, the press tour, I know that you get through with some of the topics

like this, are people supportive?

Are they negative?

Are they understanding?

Are they skeptics?

Like kind of what's been the posture of people as you're talking with them in general about

this?

I think there's a little bit of fear and excitement mixed together, but there is the, the, the

tone is very sober because I think the data that we've presented, uh, with the trend that

we have, we have observed is, you know, you, you, you know, the, the numbers don't lie, you

know, numbers don't lie.

So if we, I mean, just yesterday, another church, I reported on a 206 year old church that had

to shut down because they, the members were older, um, and they just could not attract the

young people.

So this is a church that survived world wars, survived, um, you know, pandemics before went

through so many changes, you know, and, and they just could not survive this period.

So there is a massive shift that has taken place that, you know, many churches in the, in

the last few months I've reported, and it's not just the century year old churches that are

shutting down.

You have churches, uh, you know, like the Potter's house in Denver, um, that they had this large

campus and they shut down and shifted to digital.

So I think a lot of leaders are looking at the cost benefit analysis and they're also looking

at, you know, the realities of, you know, how they can still do church without, um, you, you know,

worrying about the overheads of a large building.

Yes.

Oh, so much.

Yes, sir.

I was funny.

I was actually just talking about the Potter's house with somebody yesterday and, and, and

honestly celebrating that as a model.

You know, most people, I remember when that was announced mid, late last year, uh, that

they were transitioning away from the building and going to a digital only model.

Like there was, there was criticism for them in some circles that they were, they were giving

up and it's the people that, uh, are saying that you can't do, you can't do discipleship.

The relationships are not real.

It's, it's, it's the negative, uh, people in those contexts.

But what, what's interesting is, is we're, and you're highlighting some of these stories,

Leonardo, where we're finding that you can, and it is, and it just, it looks different.

And, and the, the Potter's house in Denver is going to look different than the Potter's

house.

The other, uh, it's in Dallas, right?

That's where the, the main campus is.

Yes.

The main campus.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so like things are going to be different, but between these two, and that might be an

interesting, you know, podcasting conversation in its own, exploring the one campus versus

another and, and how they behave, how they react, how they're connecting, what some of their

strategies are.

Uh, but in those differences on honestly come, come strengths and opportunities by, by doing

a different thing in digital space.

It's the thing that I love about digital churches by doing digital differently than how physical

church is.

We have the opportunity to reach a different person digitally than, than we're reaching,

uh, in the physical.

And, and, and a lot of these virtual reality churches, DJ Soto, Jason Poling, Cornerstone

VR, um, you know, VR tiger with Oasis church, which we've talked about a little bit here on

the podcast.

These guys are, are, are reaching different people than the people that are coming into

the buildings.

Uh, and, and, and it's, it's a beautiful thing as you start to realize that the differences

make them unique, which makes them effective as opposed to just carbon copying the same type

of thing over and over again to reach those types of people that, you know, let's be honest.

There's a, the majority of people in 2022 America, at least are not interested in coming, uh, to

the brick and mortar building.

We've got to do different things to reach a, a different type of, of person.

Have you, I'm just curious that I, because this idea is just fresh in my head.

Have you had any, any connection with Potter's house and some of those people, like how that

transition is gone?

Uh, have you had any conversations over there?

I, I think I need to follow up that that's going to be a part of the, you know, the future

discussion, the, the, the future transition.

Um, I, I think I, I also mentioned, uh, Willow Creek, uh, Dave Dumit, uh, he raised this,

you know, he took over that church, uh, during the pandemic and, you know, he had to cut staff

recently because, you know, the map, the numbers just weren't there, you know, the, the, you

know, they, they can't financially sustain, uh, that church anymore because the people are

not coming back.

So as we're seeing more and more, it's interesting, even falling back to your church that launched

in 1815, if it's a 206 year old church that shut down, uh, I, I think there's, there's coming

a season soon where we're going to see, uh, digital next churches.

Um, you know, not churches that are launching first in digital.

We saw that earlier in COVID, uh, Nuvo church, uh, city, uh, city center church in California.

There were lots of churches that launched first digitally and then went physical.

We're seeing digital only churches like, uh, Lux digital and barbecue church and so many, uh,

metaverse churches as well.

But I think they were going to see this model of, of digital next where churches can't justify

the, the building.

They can't justify the large staff.

They're, they're going to have to lean into a more scalable approach of, of digital.

It is, it's interesting.

We've talked about Barna, uh, Kinnaman, uh, you know, was, was the guy who had said in COVID,

I forget the exact stat.

It's been a minute since I quoted it, but he was predicting, you know, 20, 25% of church

closures, I think by 2023, like it was, it was a very drastic number.

And, and I, you know, even when he said it, I was like, I, I like the, I like the stat.

I agree with the mindset.

I think it's too quick because I think people are going to scramble.

They're going to hold on.

They're going to squeeze every last dime because they don't want to give up on the dream of

the church, at least in the physical space.

Not realizing that maybe some forward thinking people can extend their ministry and maybe even

propel their ministry into a different environment by engaging and doing it digitally.

Potter house is a great example of that.

Hey, we can't afford this giant building.

We can't afford, uh, the staffing and the infrastructures because of just the difficulties

and the complexities of doing church in Denver.

I was just in Denver last week.

It's a very expensive city, but if we can engage digitally and start to, to pull some of that

in, if, if we can extend the reach of this scale down, how much all of this costs and instead

maybe reach different people than the other physical locations are maybe even outside of

Denver.

Oh my gosh, there's incredible potential.

It just takes people.

It takes planters.

It takes pastors to imagine some things and do some things differently with that.

That's so good.

Yeah.

But I, I, I also think one of the challenges for churches today is that if you look at the

same data from Barna and Pew and so on, that their most ardent supporters are older adults,

like the, the older you are, that's where the market is.

And a lot of the, a lot of this audience does not have the technological skills to, uh, probably

sustain you themselves in a digital church environment.

So I know that here in New York city, where I am, there are tons and tons of free classes

for old, old, older adults where you can go and train and get introduced to, um, you know,

this, this kind of, uh, you know, system or help.

Maybe what the churches could do is while they're transitioning, they start offering some free

classes, like connect with their local government officials, because it's not something that's

going away.

It's something that's coming and it's going to continue to increase, right?

This event that I'm going to, after I'm finished with this interview, um, it's talking about

the digital identity in web three, right?

So there's going to be this convergence because we, we all have like different passwords for

all these different apps.

The next level is, okay, you're going to have this digital you that is going to be recognizable

across all platforms.

So that's, that's what people are working on right now.

So I think if the church is going to be helpful and, uh, future proof and forward thinking,

then the church is going to have to do more than just, Oh, let me start a Facebook page.

Let me start, you know, this or that you're going to have to be a part of the transition.

You're going to have to help, uh, people so that they're not left behind because all these

churches that are shutting down, I haven't heard anybody talk about, Oh, where are these

older adults going to go?

That's, that's a, that's a great perspective.

It's interesting.

That actually reminds me.

I was, when COVID was coming across, I was actually working for a, a physical church down

here in Miami, Florida.

Um, and they were, they had a, um, it's let's, let's call it an older audience.

You know, it's, it's, it's a little more on the, in the older side of, of, of Miami.

And so the, the, and they, the church was doing incredible, honestly, incredible digital

things.

Uh, but it was reaching a different type of person than the people that were attending

in the physical building.

And, and the, the week that we saw COVID coming, uh, you know, and literally like we're here

in Miami.

And if you remember in, uh, uh, Asia was getting hit China.

And there was that over the weekend, we saw it hit California or actually Seattle was first.

And then it came down to California.

And like across that week, we could literally see it hitting state, state time zone, time

zone coming towards the East coast.

And, um, you know, I, I remember just being in leadership meetings, uh, with, with the leader,

senior leadership with the church.

And I, and I was like, we need to run workshops around the clock, educating as many people

in the church on, on how to download the mobile app, how to use the mobile app, how to do

online giving.

Like our, our, our problem is that we need to educate a, a classification of people.

We have the tools, we have the knowledge, we have the resources.

Our, our specific problem was the people we were targeting didn't know how to use them because

they never had to, because they would come to the building and the buildings, you know,

until March we're, we're shutting down.

And I think you give, I think you give a great point there.

And I would even add to that Leonardo.

And I've talked about on the podcast before my mom, 70 something, uh, I'm not allowed to

say the age publicly.

She's asked me not to, uh, but the heart of it is my mom leads like two or three online

small groups.

My mom's led online small groups for years, uh, has multiple relationships, multiple groups.

Some of the stuff that she's doing in digital ministry is phenomenal.

My mom struggles to print every couple of weeks and still doesn't really understand how to

utilize the remote control.

So like, it's, it's not that she's a technological wizard in what she's doing.

I'm adopted.

And so like the genetics don't pass from, from mom to me, but the, the heart of this really

is she sees the potential of, of, of reaching and discipling these people.

You know, when I convinced my mom, I was actually a digital pastor that recruited my mom

to start teaching online small groups and, and, and it wasn't, Hey mom, there's this new

technology.

Hey mom, you get to stare at people face to face from around the country.

It was, Hey mom, I, she was a, a, a, a retired business professional.

Hey mom, uh, I've got a lawyer, a girl studying to be a lawyer.

I've got a girl studying to be a doctor.

Uh, I've got a girl that's operating currently as a CPA.

She's, she's getting her CPA certifications.

So I've got three women, uh, mid twenties, young professionals.

Uh, they need mentoring.

They need discipleship.

You want to take a crack at it?

And it, and it was, it wasn't the technology.

It was a ministry that wooed my mom over.

And to the point, that's what she's, she's doing now.

It's interesting.

One of the, one of the small groups that she's actually leading is a, um, it's four women.

My mom's age.

So it's four women in their sixties and seventies.

And it's the daughters, four daughters of the four women.

Now it's interesting is the four daughters are mixed in age and they're scattered all over

the country.

So it's four moms in Miami and four daughters scattered all over.

But what's happening is, is when these women gather together, the mothers and the daughters,

really the only time they're connecting through the span of the weeks and months is in my mom's

Bible study.

Where they're talking about the Bible.

So the thing that brings these mothers and daughters together is literally the word of

God.

And this is something that you can never do in a, in a physical only because these women,

these, these daughters are scattered all over the country.

You're not going to get them in the same space, but you're able to foster those relationships,

build a community, strengthen the, the, the mother daughter bond.

And I'll send it around the gospel and the Bible.

Like it's, it's this beautiful concept.

And what's fascinating is I asked my mom one day, I was like, this is the best idea I've

ever heard for an online small group.

Like I tell everybody and their mother about this.

And I was like, Hey mom, where'd, where'd you come up with this?

And she's like, I just prayed about it.

And God kind of brought it to mind.

And I'll tell God, you need to pray more.

Cause like, this is, this is really good stuff, but there's a, there's a potential to go beyond

really what these buildings are for, for people that have imagination.

Um, and, and that imagination might even extend the reach of the church in, you know, you know,

I'm hearing words like recession.

I know there's economic issues.

I'm paying way too much for gas.

Like the writing's on the wall.

Um, we're going to need to pivot.

We're going to need to shift.

Uh, and, and digital is a completely viable option for that.

Yeah, no, you're, you're, you're absolutely right.

I'm working on a piece right now that I'm going to have to finish tomorrow where this

pastor was offering gas cards to help people to come to church because the gas is so high.

People worry about the distance they have to travel to go to church.

Um, I think also that, um, the idea about your mom is amazing because churches can identify

people like your mom who are among their congregation to be ambassadors, to help spread the gospel

through technology, to help spread the gospel to members who might be stubborn, who might be

resistant to the change or the shift to, you know, and connect.

And I, I, um, one of the reasons why I, I, I, a lot of this feels a little bit seamless

to me, you know, prior to coming to the Christian post, I worked on a project in New York city

called age friendly New York city.

So we were tracking, um, all this data that showed that by 2030, they would have more older adults

in America than, uh, you know, children, 18 or, or younger or something to that effect.

So we were preparing for, uh, uh, you know, the, the, the, the preponderance of older adults

in the city.

We're trying to make things more accessible and we worked, uh, we worked with, uh, uh, an

organization called older adults, older adults, technology services.

So we were doing a lot of research and going through and making sure that businesses, schools,

colleges, that they were prepared to serve this market and to help them transition to live better

lives.

And churches need to be a part of this.

Churches have to be a part of this.

We, we, we, we have to keep older adults connected, right?

And, and, and that's where I think, um, you know, a lot of these churches with resources,

if you are going to be future proof, if you want to survive, you have to stay connected to

the people who are your most ardent supporters and, and then, you know, find ways to, to,

to make, to make the transition, uh, uh, an intergenerational movement, you know, cause

that is going to be key.

And, and that's, that's one of the things that we talked about in that age friendly New

York city project was to get older adults, to connect more with younger people because

you, you know, not every older adult has a child, not every older adult has grandkids

that they are interacting with every day to help them to, to stay connected to, to where,

uh, you know, the future is trending.

So, and, and, and that's where churches, I think churches can play a very critical role

at this point.

Yeah.

I love it.

It's, and it's, it's interesting.

You use the word ambassador.

Uh, I believe, you know, we've, we've talked, you know, in church planning circles, it's,

it's the person of peace, find the person that's, that's familiar with the community that you

want to get involved with.

And, and, and, I mean, there's the whole biblical, you can unpack that, but you know, the E in,

in digital space, you know, we talk about, um, you know, finding that person of peace,

maybe like in your church to get you exposed into, into new areas, like, uh, cornerstone

church, Yuba city, Jason polling was to my knowledge.

He was the first pastor to lead a physical church as well as a metaverse church at the

same time.

DJ has been doing it a long time longer, but he was only virtual reality.

He was not physical.

Jason, I believe at least nobody's proved me.

Otherwise, Jason was the first to do both.

And it's interesting, Jason's story about how he got into the metaverse, Jason didn't

even know how to spell VR.

Like he had no understanding whatsoever.

And, uh, two people like in his church, one of, one of his elder board and one of his key

volunteers came up to him and said, Hey, we want to, we want to help you get into the

metaverse.

We want to help launch a church in the metaverse.

And, um, you know, Jason went from buying a headset to launching a church in the metaverse

in months.

Like I was like six to eight months, I believe.

Uh, very quick turnaround, but because he had the person of peace, he had the ambassadors

to really start to expand ideas and, and, and get into different areas.

And a lot of people, you know, they're like, we don't really understand, you know, they try

broadcasting the services in, uh, and which is nice, uh, because that's like the physical

example of what church is.

Hey, let's broadcast the services that one hour on Sunday and maybe we'll open up some

chat.

Like that's, that's, that's the closest to what physical church is, I guess, in digital

context.

But really when we get people that understand like how digital works, uh, understand how

metaverse works, uh, when we find these persons of peace, maybe they start to expose us to

some new ideas and they have maybe a larger imagination for what could be even beyond what

we as, as pastors and ministers have.

And all of a sudden we're understanding that, man, we're getting exposed or the options here is going to expose

us more within these platforms, more within these communities, uh, than we could before.

Like, you know, I'm, I mentioned earlier and, and, and I know, uh, Andre was one of the guys that was

mentioned in your article.

Uh, uh, barbecue church is a, uh, barbecue church is a thing.

I remember the first time Andre told me about this church and I'm like, that's either the stupid.

I literally, I told him, I was like, that's either the stupidest or the most ingenious idea I ever

heard. Uh, but you have to do it because you're, his passion is going to connect them with people

that would not otherwise be connected. And it could bridge over into something more. And so we're,

we're seeing time and time again, that even finding persons of peace in the barbecue community and how

that feeds into connecting people into Jesus in a discipleship process that's multiplying like this,

it seems silly, but we're finding that these purses of pieces, even in unique communities like barbecue,

uh, are, are giving opportunities for people to engage in a church that they would not otherwise engage in.

Yeah. One of the things I really, really like, um, just, just, just you bring it up, Cornerstone, uh,

Yuba City, uh, and just talking about barbecue church. I remember when we were doing that interview,

we talked about the unshackling of the gospel and what the disruption of the digital, uh, technology

has, has done, you know, people need to, to really open up their minds and understand that the gospel

is not just one thing. Like it's, it's, it's, it's the power, right? But it can be served in so many

different ways by so many different people. And you, you, you, you, you know, I, um, I, um,

Chesley talked about, you know, the new wine, you know, uh, about this, uh, this, this digital

church, uh, transformation is a bit like new wine and people are just going to have to try to connect

the word to that movement. Um, and I was like pretty, I, I, I love the fact that you brought up

Cornerstone Church, Yuba City, and you, you pointed out the, the, the, the, the, the, the distinction

between churches who are just trying something. They're just streaming the service in sort of a

generic VR room, right? At Cornerstone, they have, you know, looked at their website, they have a

dedicated team, right? That is focused on the VR church. And when you go there, it feels so engaging,

you know, they, there's a, there's a sanctuary, you worship there, and then they move you across to this,

you know, outdoor world, uh, where the, the, the, the, the avatar of the pastor actually speaks

and connects. And, you know, it feels, you know, like a real church. It comes with the same

intimidation that you might feel if you're a shy person, uh, of, of going somewhere, you, you don't

know anyone and you're going to have to have a conversation. So I, I really think that people

need to, you know, just acknowledge that there is a, you know, a tremendous transition taking place

right now and, you know, try to learn because if you refuse to learn, you're only going to be harming

yourself. Yeah. I mean, at, at this point it's let's, let's go with the goers. You know, that's,

that's a phrase that I say a lot, those that, that are experimenting, we're, we're going to go with

them. Um, and, and we're, we're going to help them on the journey, uh, because, uh, not a lot of

people are helping them on their journey. Let's, let's just be honest. But, you know, the heart,

the heart of this is, is that I listen is when we talk about the, you know, the theology of the

metaverse, virtual reality, uh, the ecclesiology, how this works is, is, is God approving of this?

Is God not? I don't, I don't, I don't know. Like, I'm just going to be honest right here on this

podcast. Um, I, I, I, I, I feel like God's approving. I feel like I'm seeing God working through

these situations. And when I talk with people in the midst of it, like we, we, we agree that we're,

we're seeing God move, but I will, I will stand before God one day. Uh, and, and I will either

apologize for offending him with some of the stuff that we're doing or hopefully hear well done and

good and faithful servant by helping others try to think outside the box. Um, you know, I don't,

I don't want to invalidate what's happening in this physical space as, as much as encourage

the experimenters to experiment today so that we can, can learn tomorrow. It's, it's interesting. I was,

we were actually, I was on another show just, just talking about this, but, um, uh, the, uh,

the printing press Gutenberg Gutenberg was actually criticized. The printing press was considered

satanic at the time because well-meaning scribes who would sit in these rooms and, and, and write

by hand the scriptures day by day, week by week, month by month, year by year, the printing press

basically made them useless. They, they invalidated their existence. They were unemployed. Uh, and, and many

people at the time of the printing press, um, were, were like heretic, uh, on, on Gutenberg in his

invention. Now, I mean, 2020, like that's ridiculous. No one believes that, that, that, you know,

Gutenberg was, was, uh, was used by Satan in that moment. As a matter of fact, many people would

cite him as, as, you know, the part of one of the first revivals, one of the largest, um, you know,

reveled, biblical revolutions, not biblical, but Christian revolutions in, in, in relative modern

era. Uh, and so like the idea that it's, that it's, uh, satanic, that it's a heretic, that's,

that's weird. It's interesting. Like even Helen Keller said this quote before, uh, today's heresy

is tomorrow's orthodoxy. What we consider heretical today is, is going to be quite accepted tomorrow.

And, and, and, and I do believe that in the digital and metaverse space, I think that we're

very much on the bleeding edge. Leonardo, some of the stuff that you've talked about, some of the

stuff that we're doing within DCN that was highlighted in that article. Um, yeah, it's,

it's borderline heretical by common standards today, but when you actually not look at heresy

outside of extra biblical, outside of the biblical, but actually look at what the Bible is saying,

I don't really think we are. I think this is another example of Gutenberg's press where

the, the expectations are of one thing, but the reality of what the Bible calls us to do

is another. And we're actually following that in these digital and metaverse churches. So

stay tuned. Um, Hey, let me ask this, what do you, and I just kind of went off on a diatribe right

there. Where do you see the, let me ask you the question, where do you see the church going in,

in five years? Like where, where do you, where do you, what do you think the future is going to hold

as we're looking at more of these digital and metaverse expressions of church, internet pastors,

a lot of the stuff that you've been brainstorming. What do you think 2030 looks like?

I think, uh, I'm glad that you, you touched on digital church network. I, I'm glad that there is

a network like digital church network, because it actually tells me that there is a collective group

of people who are actually thinking about the future. And I, I, I, I, I feel like, you know,

there's so many churches across the country there, you know, that have their tentacles connected to

local governments and, and all this work. I, I, I, I think there are, if the church wants to survive,

if the church wants to, you know, not have one lost sheep out there, because we got to remember that,

uh, you know, Jesus left the 99 and went to search, search for the one sheep, you know, the, the church

is right now going through a very, very difficult transition. And there is a threat to older adults.

There is a threat to our young people. And what we need to be doing is exactly what digital church

network is doing. We need people, everybody that's connected to, uh, Christendom, whether you're,

um, whether you're a, a, a, a, a seminary, whether you're, uh, you know, a denomination,

whatever it is that you do, everybody needs to find ways and means to collaborate and ask themselves

the question, how are we going to survive? Because we cannot, I don't think we can adopt

a capitalistic, uh, mindset to the church by saying, okay, if you want to get left behind,

that's your problem, or we're just going to go. We have to keep talking. We have to keep pushing until

they hear, you know, preach and preach and preach. You have new wine. DCN is DCN has been given the new

wine, right? A lot of the other players that the younger folks have been given this new wine. Now it

is up to us to do what we must to make sure that everybody that needs to survive. Some people,

we're going to have to take them by force, you know, because the truth is churches are shutting down

and a lot of people no longer have church homes. Uh, COVID decimated a lot of congregations, even with,

uh, uh, the, the, the, the paycheck protection and all that effort to, to save them, they still lost,

right? So, so we're going to have to figure out creative ways to connect and it's happening online,

right? We need, we, we, we need those old mothers. We need those old fathers. We need everybody,

you know, because we, we can't have, you know, just people who are entertaining because the church is

not just about entertainment. The church is about worship. You know, the church is about, you know,

uh, saving people. And, and, and that's that there's a lot of saving that needs to be done right now.

A lot of saving. The young people are in trouble. The old people are in trouble. So DCN, um, listen,

I'm, I'm glad you had that metaverse church summit. It's the start of a conversation, but we need to be

doing more because we need Barna. We need Pew. We need, we need everybody who is connected to track

in the church to come together and say, Hey, we have a problem. Are we in this to keep people saved

and, and, and spread the gospel to others who need it? Or are we just thinking about dollar signs,

right? God, I, I really believe that if God has given a purpose to, uh, you, you know, people who

know, like you have this knowledge, you've been in the, you've been in the trenches for a long time,

Jeff, you have been preaching this gospel for a long time. You know, Noah, remember Noah was building

that ark for a long time and warning people, Hey, it's going to rain. It's going to rain. It's going to

rain. And nobody believed him. Right. Until the flood came, you know, so there is a flood right now.

And people, people might, because we're all so siloed into our individual bubbles, we don't see it,

but I'm seeing it every single day because I have a bird's eye view. I'm staring at the data as a

journalist every single day. And it's scary. It's really, really scary. So, so yeah, the future is what

we, I believe, I don't want to preach gloom and doom. I believe that if, if we believe that God is able to do

exceedingly abundantly above all that we can ask or think, um, the future is in our hands. The future is going

to be what we make of it. And so pastors are going to need to stand up. Uh, seminary leaders are going to need

to stand up, uh, denominational, you know, heads are going to need to stand up and say, Hey, uh, how are

we going to do this? How are we going to keep, um, you know, the church together? And, and, and there's

a way to do it that we've been talking about. That's, that's, that's beautiful. Um, well, you know,

thank you for the encouragement. I think that, um, it's, it's been an honor through DCN and, and, and I love

the fact that, that you featured Chesley and I in the article as much as you did, like just that,

that meant a lot. Um, and it has, it's funny, my, my friends, the, the Noah example, my friends in

March, 2020, they actually called me Noah. Uh, like I, it's funny. I still have some of those tweets

saved because it's just, it's like, Hey, this is your, this is your season. You were, you were, you were,

you were talking about this for so long. And, uh, and it was such a rough journey to be honest,

but, uh, coming out of this, it was the, it was the validation where we're seeing it. We're seeing

that this model works. Yeah, it's different, uh, but different isn't bad. Different gets

different results and it reaches different people, which is what we're, we're learning time and time

again, even as we're looking at more of these expressions of digital churches. Uh, but thank

you for, you know, for taking the time for, uh, for seeing opportunities for looking at that data

and, um, and, and, and, and being one of these guys talking from the rooftops. So, uh, we need,

we need more of you and it's, it's interesting that metaverse church summit, you know, that,

that brought a lot of, uh, speaking opportunities for, for me as well. A lot of radio news sources,

uh, other articles and, um, you know, God bless even leadership network and some of their forward

thinking, uh, on a lot of this metaverse church stuff, just to try to challenge preconceived norms.

And the heart of all of this is just that we don't want to say anything's bad. I really don't think

the brick and mortar is bad. I think the brick and mortar is necessary to reach a different type of

person. Uh, but if we're trying to complete the great commission and we think that the building is

the one that's going to get it there, I have some serious issues with that, especially given the

recession we're walking into and other things, because I just, I know what that does to economies.

And, um, I'm not sure the brick and mortar is going to be the effective model or the only model that's

going to be effective moving forward. And so you bring in light to that has been awesome. So thank

you for that. Hey, as we're going to, we're going to land the plane, but as we're wrapping up here,

uh, Leonardo, any, any closing thoughts? Uh, let's do this together. That's, that's,

that's my closing thought. Um, I, I, I really, I really believe that, um, the church is going to have

to work together everybody and listen to the people with the new wine. Listen to the people who are

telling you numbers. Don't lie. Pay attention to the data. Churches are closing. It is unsustainable.

Even if you love your church, if the people aren't, if the young people aren't there to do the work,

to do the ministries that you want to do, if, if they're not going to be there to pay the tithe and

whatever it is that you, however it is that you, um, gain income to sustain the church, then you're

going to have to get back to the drawing board and, um, you know, do something new.

Incredible. So, Hey, you can see Leonardo, uh, Blair over on, uh, christianpost.com. Uh, and so, uh,

definitely check out his articles. We'll put a couple of links in the show notes, the ones we talked

about. Leonardo, I mean, if anybody else is interested in keeping up with you, what, what are the best ways

to, uh, to reach out or to connect? Yeah, I'm, I'm on Twitter at Leo Blair. Um, and, uh, you know,

the information is there on christianpost.com. Uh, my, my, my handles are all there, uh, with my bio

under all my stories. So, yeah. Perfect. So follow the link in the show notes and, and you'll get

there. And that sounds like a plan. So Leonardo, thank you for being our guest and jumping on,

on the podcast, but we're going to wrap up, uh, for Leonardo. This is Jeff, uh, with, uh, Digital

Church Network, the Church Digital Leadership Network, and a bunch of other fun stuff. Uh, thanks for

jumping on the podcast here and we'll see you next time on the show. Y'all have a good day.

Thank you.