EP228: Anne Bosarge & Digital Discipleship in Africa

I happened to be on staff with a church in Brunswick, Georgia, where I live. And I worked

on that staff in a variety of capacities, but I was the multi-campus director for a while.

And in that role, I kept telling the leadership, I think we need to start an online campus. I think

we need to start an online campus. And nobody was biting. And then the pandemic. And then all of a

sudden, things were like, oh, well, maybe this is something that we need to do.

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological

innovations within the church. But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field?

Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into

all this? Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church plant,

the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church,

digitally and physically. Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on

disciple making that will revolutionize your church. And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed.

All right. Hey, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. This is episode 228. We're somewhere

in the summer. It's been a fascinating summer. You know, one of the things that I've loved that we've

done here with the podcast within the past couple weeks is we started diving into what the digital

church, what church online looks like globally and some of the contextualizations of what's happening

there. Like, we had the Ezekiel Fattori just last week, or a couple weeks ago, I guess at this point,

we were talking about the Hispanic church and how a small, relatively 100-person church in Miami is

having international reach, literally discipling people in physical space on another continent down

in Latin and South America. We talked about an African-American church and what doing a ministry

within African-American culture, what that looks like. And Elle Michelle was solid in that

conversation, maybe about a month ago at this point. And so I'm really excited about the conversation

that we're having today. We're bringing in Anne Bosarge into the conversation. Anne, how are you doing?

I'm doing well, doing well.

So Anne's got, you know, she's got a little like time-lapse going on. She just got back from a trip

from Africa. And so we're looking forward to that conversation and how that ties in. But Anne,

Anne, you had an interesting start into digital ministry and digital church. Why don't you just

share a little bit about how you got started into the chapel online?

Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to. So I have been listening to God for quite some time and hearing

him talk to me and tell me about this idea of digital church and what that would look like.

And I happened to be on staff with a church in Brunswick, Georgia, where I live. And I worked on

that staff in a variety of capacities, but I was the multi-campus director for a while. And in that role,

I kept telling the leadership, I think we need to start an online campus. I think we need to start

an online campus. And nobody was biting. And then the pandemic. And then all of a sudden,

things were like, oh, well, maybe this is something that we need to do. And the way that all of this

started was actually with a women's ministry that I was leading at the time. The women's ministry was an

in-person ministry called Becoming More. And we had about 30 women from our church that had started

coming in February of 2020. And we were about six weeks into a nine-week small group and the world

shut down. And the women were like, we only have a couple of more weeks. We need to put this on

Facebook. We need to continue to meet together. And so we went on Facebook and we started our Becoming

More Facebook group, which just grew and spread during the pandemic and grew to hundreds of women very

quickly. And we started doing daily discipleship for these women. And it grew and grew into actually

curriculum that we started to produce and facilitate small groups that were in-person and online and all of

this. And so about after, after about a year of becoming more just growing and finding its own

success and, um, and just place in the digital world as in terms of discipleship, the leadership at our

church finally said, okay, and let's do a digital campus. Um, and I had been trying to convince them

for years and finally, reluctantly, they said, okay, let's give it a shot. And as we got started,

we began planning. I'm a big planner. And so I like to have all the charts and all the details planned

out. I like to work ahead. And so we began kind of planning out a funnel, a funnel, an engagement funnel

to say, here's how people would start and connect with us. And then we'd move them down into deeper

level discipleship. And our target audience was at the beginning, uh, kind of the nuns and duns people

that were saying that they were far from Christ or that they were kind of done with church. Those are

kind of the things that we were the people that we were looking to engage with what we were doing.

And we thought we were going to engage them using some different strategies that we had for TikTok

and YouTube. And so we began and we began, uh, you know, implementing the plan. And I would say

probably two months into beginning to implement this plan, we began to see that the Holy Spirit had a

different plan. And so we began to adjust to God's plan instead of asking Him to adjust to ours. And we began

seeing international people engage with what we were doing. And where we discovered that they were jumping in

on TikTok, TikTok and YouTube, but they were jumping right into the deep end and joining our Facebook group

and really getting involved with asking for prayer and praying for each other and really beginning some good

conversations. Um, and it wasn't, it was not long before we were counting people from about 50 different

countries and thousands of people that, yeah, that were just engaging in a variety of ways. And so we

quickly learned that our target audience was not going to be people in the U.S. that were done with

church or who had no religious affiliation. But we started to see a bit of a pattern in the people that

were engaging with us. Um, they were people that seemed to be hungry for more, um, that seemed to be

dissatisfied with the concept of like a once a week church kind of thing, um, that they wanted to, to go

deeper and they wanted to share their faith. And some of them were in very hard, difficult situations and,

and felt kind of unseen in their current context. Um, and some of them were done. They had, you know,

tried church and a lot of, a lot of the people that we were engaging with were actually still in

lockdown when we in the United States were not, they were still locked down and couldn't go back to

church and things like that. So we did engage with people in that manner. Um, but they, they just seem

to all have this deeper longing to be seen, to be known and to know that they were loved. Those were

really the three things that, um, that God made very clear to me that he wanted these people to know,

um, and tell them they are seen, that they are known and that they are loved. And so that just

continued to be the thing that I, um, that I began conversations with when people were telling me about

their difficult situations and all that they were going through during this time. Um, you are seen,

you are known, you are loved. And even to this day, those are the three things that I continue to tell

people because those were early on the three things that God said, I want to use this ministry to help

people know they are seen and known and loved. So now we have in Becoming More, we have, I think, about,

1.4 thousand women from around the globe and becoming more in our Facebook group. And we have,

I think today I looked and we're at 2.8 thousand in the Chapel Online's Facebook group.

Um, yeah. And about six months into it, I have a friendship with a girl from Zimbabwe, a lady from

Zimbabwe that was one of our first international people that joined the Chapel Online. And we began just

a daily conversation back and forth. And she and I have been in conversation just about every single day for the

last year and a half. And early on in our relationship, she said, "Anne, we need to go to WhatsApp." And I was

like, "Martha, I don't know how to use WhatsApp." And she said, "Well, I do."

And so we now even have a WhatsApp ministry where we have another hundred people in a prayer group that

are constantly praying for one another and encouraging one another. Really, because of all the time

differences, 24 hours a day, there's somebody in there and chatting and praying for each other and

encouraging each other. So yeah, it's been an amazing thing to watch what God is doing and to watch as He is

bringing people, His people, His children, from all different corners of the globe and bringing us together.

It's kind of like a little taste of heaven, I think.

Tell me this, Anne. So you're in 50 countries, thousands of people. Is this spread across all

the continents? Are they more tight towards a type of demographic? I know you were just in Africa,

so I'm hinting you were probably a large following in Africa. What are you finding?

Yeah. For some reason, we definitely have a larger population in Sub-Saharan Africa. So we actually

have more people who are part of the chapel online in Harare, Zimbabwe than we do in my hometown of

Brunswick, Georgia. That's awesome.

So yeah, it's awesome. It's awesome. And we really have just quite a reach in Sub-Saharan Africa,

Zimbabwe, South Africa, Uganda, Nigeria, Kenya, Ghana. We've got Liberia. We've got just a lot of those

African countries. And we do have people from all over the rest of the globe, but really,

we have a big concentration in Sub-Saharan Africa.

And so there are African people that are approaching you that are joining the Facebook group that are

looking for discipleship. They're looking for training. They're looking for something more

than what their typical, I guess, church experience in Africa is leading. Is this the picture you're

painting?

Yeah, that's the picture. And sometimes I think that people are coming to the chapel online in particular,

just looking for someone to listen to them, looking for someone to support them. I have counseled with

just untold numbers of people that have been in very difficult situations, very difficult situations. Some of

them are just in extreme poverty. I have a friend who is in one of the largest slums in Africa,

and we chat probably a couple of times a week about just the things that he is going through. And we have

people that are running orphanages that are just in difficult, difficult situations. And we will pray

together for God's provision. And we will support each other when things are difficult.

I've had women who have actually, I had one woman just a couple of months ago, who was actually coming

out of being sex trafficked in the Middle East, and she was moving back home and finally was able to

move back home, but just felt like she was going to be rejected. And so just kind of talking with her

through that transition. There are just so many stories that I could tell you about people that have

come to us just looking for someone to understand and looking for someone to be Christ to them in that

moment.

Now, I don't want to be like the moment of awkward, and you may see this, like if you're watching this

on YouTube, but you are a white woman from Georgia, like Brunswick, that's like outside,

that's near Atlanta, right? So your accent, like you're a Southern gal,

who is, who's doing digital ministry in, and effectively, it sounds like reaching, discipling,

engaging, counseling people in like South Africa, Sub-Saharan South Africa.

Um, contextualization, uh, challenges.

Yes, very much.

Um, cultural challenges. Talk to me a little bit here.

Yeah. Yeah. So I, um, my history puts me in a good place to do this ministry. Um, when we were

growing up, we lived in Nigeria for three years. So my dad, yes, yes, for sure. So we have a,

I have in my heart, a deep love for Africa. And I see that God is bringing this kind of full circle

in my life. So we lived three years in Nigeria. My brother went back on the mission field and was

actually working in Uganda at Uganda Christian University. My mom and dad went back out and

worked two years there. So our family has deep ties and deep roots in Africa. Um, and so I was able to

draw on that context of just being able to bridge that culture gap a little bit. But at the same time,

there is, there's a lot that is different between our, my context every day and their context every

day as well. And so I think that is where, for me, that's where Martha comes in. Um, my friend from

Zimbabwe, um, she and I connected early on and I very early on said, Martha, you are going to be my

culture coach. And I said, look, I have had experience in Africa, but there are going to be

times that people are going to ask me things that I am just not going to be able to answer. And I'm

going to need someone to go to, to really help me understand culturally what's happening. And, and

there was a time early on when I had a woman who, um, was having some marital difficulties and there

was a lot of infidelity with her husband and all of this. And I went to Martha and I said,

okay, here's what's going on. And I need you to help me understand the cultural context of what's

happening. And Martha was able to say, and here's what's going on. Here's what is really happening

under the surface. And keep in mind that Martha is a 24 year old, um, single mom who is from Zimbabwe

and has up until just a couple of weeks ago had never left the country. Um, and so God just put

us together in each other's lives. And so she has really been my culture coach and I have been able

to say, Hey, I'm going to get things wrong and I feel comfortable and okay saying some of these things

things to Martha because I know she loves me and she's going to forgive me if I make a cultural gaffe

with her. So let me get with her on really how I can advise people and just really learn about the

culture. That's, that's incredible. And even your, your posture of humility of coming to a, a, a culture

coach coming to Martha and saying, I need your help. Uh, you know, help me understand, help me learn,

help me, um, better be able to serve the, these people, uh, by understanding the, you know, what's

happening, uh, between the lines. Like that's, that's beautiful that you were just able to position

yourself, you know, even in that moment as a learner. Are you, have you with this, with this ministry,

you know, you got 2,400, 2,800, 1,400, you know, you're, you're past a thousand in these areas.

Are you multiplying this, these ideology into volunteers? You know, what, what does that look

like? What's, what's the plan to see this thing, uh, expand? Because I would imagine this is getting

close to beyond what one person could manage. Absolutely. So, um, about six months into the

chapel online, the church that I was with that helped me launch this decided that they really

weren't in a place to support an online ministry like this. And so what used to be my full-time job,

um, then became a job on the side because I took a new job, um, at, um, I actually am the director

of leadership strategies and local church resources for the South Georgia Conference of the United

Methodist Church. Very long title for what I do. Um, but then on the side, we began to create a

nonprofit for the chapel online and becoming more, which now is under a nonprofit called digital

discipleship. And so now I have actually less time to devote to some of the things that I was doing

before. So, um, but even with that, the ministries have continued to grow. And so I've continued to

try to find ways to help other people engage in the ministry of the chapel online and becoming more.

I have a great leadership team for becoming more. That is a group of women that we have been together.

Um, some of most, most of us since the very beginning of becoming more, and they are, they are the ones

that make things go around. I write our curriculum, um, but they write a lot of the daily posts and

things like that, that we have. So they continue to kind of help all of that move, uh, forward for the

chapel online. Um, one of my favorites that does this is Derek and he is actually in Uganda. He is a

theological student at a university there. And he, every so often, probably about once a week for the

last several months has been writing some devotional thoughts down and he will submit it for posting.

And he just has the neatest insights and the neatest way of putting things and expressing himself.

And so, you know, I am releasing other people to begin to develop some of the content that gets

posted on, on the chapel online as well. And Martha is actually the one who is responsible for our WhatsApp

group. And so she has become our WhatsApp administrator and my culture coach as well. So, um, so it's just

as I get to know some of the people that God has placed in our path, I'm be being able to move them from, um,

consumer to contributor to creator. Those are kind of the three steps in that process that I'm hoping

to see people move in.

Well, and as you're now doing, uh, the, the chapel bivocational where you've got the nine to five,

the job and something's on the side, you know, bivocational, it's not an excuse to slow down.

It's, it's the reason why you need to multiply into others so that you can share the responsibility.

It means that you don't have 40 hours a week to pour into what, what you're doing.

And let's be honest too. What full-time pastor actually spends 40 hours. It's, it's, it's much more than that,

but you, you don't, you don't have that time and that resource. And so it's all about handing that off to

others and bringing others alongside. And, and, and so I love what you're describing about taking somebody

from that consumer to, uh, to where, where they're, they're, they're generating and they're being a creator

of that. It's, it's very good. I'm, I'm curious though, like, and, and I, I didn't ask this, um, you know,

I knew some of your story, but as more of this is, is unraveling, I didn't realize you had spent

years, uh, a couple, three years in, in Africa previous. Do, is it, is it coincidence that you

ended up connecting very well with African culture through the established church that you were

working at and, or were you intentionally or subconsciously doing something that was attractive

to that culture? I mean, why, why wasn't it Hispanic culture or why wasn't it a Filipino? I, I, I get a

lot of Filipino within the church digital just because the English speaking crowd that's there.

What was it in, in your, what you were doing that ended up actually being attractive to the,

to the African culture?

I think, um, I, this sounds ridiculously simple. Um, but I think it's because when they engaged with me,

I engaged with them. I think a lot of times you have international people that try to engage with

you on social media and you just assume they're going to ask you for money or they're going to be

that Nigerian prince that says he wants to give you, you know, $200 million in your bank account or

something like that. And, and instead of making those preconceived assumptions about people,

I think just begin a conversation, um, um, and say, hi, how are you doing? Tell me where you're from and, and,

you know, and what your life is like and begin to ask questions. And so I think for me, it was just

really asking questions and continuing that conversation and getting back to people and giving people,

um, um, approaching people with the dignity of the assumption that they are children of God,

just like we are just like I am, and that they are looking for discipleship and friendship. Um,

and so I just began to engage with them. And I think that is why they came back, um, is just because

of a simple conversation to say, hi, my name is Anne and I lead the chapel online. I saw that you just

joined. Tell me a little bit about yourself. And so I think it was just simply asking questions and

engaging people.

Yeah. Just, I'm almost replying. It's even, even in my own church staff story, like I I've got a story

similar to that, where I had a, um, I got this email on Sunday after a church services and I opened

it Monday morning and literally you get these emails where it's like the prince from Nigeria who needs

$2.4 million. They get 24 billion. And if you give them X, he'll give you Y and you know,

that, that deal. And so I got this email and right off the bat, um, um, it looks, it looks like it's

this, you know, Prince in Nigeria story. And so I, I, I can remember it was, it was a long day Monday.

And, uh, I, I can remember the, uh, mousing, moving the cursor to the junk button in the Gmail

interface and, uh, and just hovering because it's been a long day and I need to laugh. I want to see how

much this guy wants from me. And so I'm reading this email. I'm assuming spam email just to

get to chuckle to see how many zeros are behind the dollar sign that he thinks I'm going to give

them via email. And the deeper I get into Phillip's email, the more that I realized this guy's not

asking for money. He's asking for discipleship. And this is, I had completely misinterpreted what

this guy's looking for in this email. And, uh, you know, I sent it over at the time. I had,

I had a guy, uh, his name's Michael. Uh, and so I sent it over, I forwarded it to Michael,

who was my, my small groups and my discipleship online guy. And I said, Hey, Michael, um, go to

town, you know, reach out, follow up with them. Um, if this is, if there's something there, awesome.

If there's something not there, let it go. Like don't, don't waste time on it. Um, and, and so

ended up that, that Michael was, um, that there was something there that Michael would literally

teach this guy lessons on Wednesday and that, that this guy would go around and teach it to his house

church on Sunday. And we were literally training this guy, um, to, to how to do it, train Philip

on how to do this. And so we started getting stories back of like 50, 75, a hundred people

showing up. And, and, uh, we started hearing stories of baptisms, like 25 kids on a Sunday.

And I started, it was funny. I started talking to my, to my leadership about this and my leadership's

like, we don't, we don't believe you. We want photos. And so I'm like, Hey, Philip, send photos.

Like, let's, let's actually see the same. We started, we started seeing what was happening

and it was, and it was, it was fascinating. Like the lessons that we taught Philip didn't

even stop within his church. He started on his own volition, traveling around to neighboring

cities, uh, towns, communities, other countries teaching this stuff. And it was like, we activated

this guy to be a, a church network, church planting leader within South Africa by actually just

like having some conversations and giving them some light coaching. And that, that's, that

was like, it was funny. I'll get off me. I'm sorry. But like five years, that was five

years ago. And it was funny, Michael, just within the past three months flew to Africa for the

first time to meet with Philip, took over some resources. They were actually wanting to do

it pre COVID. Uh, but COVID hit right. And travel shut down right when they wanted to do

it like two or three years ago, but they finally, they finally did it and got, got face to face

and, and just some incredible stories, uh, in celebration of, of what's God's done because

of, you know, some people openly having some conversations with some people engaging, respecting,

I see you. I, um, I'm, I'm here for you. You know, I, I love that language to be seen,

to be known, to be loved. That was, that was so good. Now you got to do this in like real

time. You just got back from Africa. What was it? You were in Uganda, right? Like, so talk

to me a little bit like that. How did you end up in, in Uganda? Yeah. So, um, on the leadership at

the chapel online, I have a pastor who is actually in Nashville, Tennessee. His name, name is David

Sabulame. And he is from Uganda originally, but they live here in the U S and he and his wife

actually started a school and just over 11 years, this school has just blown up. And it is in Uganda

in the Kulungu district in Wasundeku. And he actually asked me a couple of months back, he said,

Ann, when are you going to Africa? And I was like, David, whenever somebody will help me out with the

cost. And, and so he said, well, how about this summer? And of course that's just, you know,

two months to get ready for this trip. But he invited me to go over there and to speak and lead

a women's conference over there, uh, for the women in rural Uganda in this area where the, um, the school

has an impact with these different educational centers. And so I took a friend over there who's

also on my becoming more leadership team. And we booked a flight for Martha from Zimbabwe and Martha

medicine, Uganda with, um, along with another team from Nashville that was going to do some children's

ministry stuff and things around the school. And we took the first couple of days to, um, go out into

the surrounding areas where we were and meet our chapel online people. And so some of the people that

are my dearest friends that I have been in contact with for, um, you know, some of them over a year,

we were able to go and see them and see their ministries. Um, as you were talking about that

last story that you mentioned in South Africa, one of the things that came to my mind was that

about a year ago, I began having conversations with these three guys that were in Jinja, Uganda,

and they each had different ministry areas. They each had different things going on in their lives,

but then more and more, as I talked to them, I said, Hey, you guys really need to meet each other.

Like you're in the same area and you're doing ministry and you're looking for support. And all

three of you are right there in the same town. And so about six months ago, they met up and met each

other, sent me a picture of themselves together and they have started doing ministry. And so I was able

to come, they actually do women's ministry with some of the women that are at their church. And, um,

and so I was able to go and meet with three groups of women from an organization that one of our,

our chapel online guys, Joshua Boulay has an organization called Lift Up Girls. And I was able to speak

to three groups of women, many of them young girls, young mothers. One of them was as young as 14 that had just

given birth and they're trying to earn a living. They're trying to give them just some leadership, basic life

skills. Um, and so I was able to go and do ministry with my guys in person, um, which just felt so amazingly

wonderful. They call me mom. So these are all my boys. And, um, and it was just so awesome to be able

to, to be with them. I was able to also go to Mityana and see Frank. Frank is a young man. He was 18

when I first got connected with him through the chapel online. And he actually told me in our first

conversations, um, and will you pray for me? I have an orphanage here. And I was like, how old are you?

And he was like 18 and I'm like 18 and you have an orphanage. And he ended up saying, well, actually

the orphans are me and my brothers and sisters. And so he at 18 had lost his mother, his, all of the

fathers of the kids were out of the picture. And it was just him and five younger brothers and sisters.

And we began having conversations. Um, and we actually worked, uh, a team of us have actually

worked to get all of Frank's brothers and sisters sponsored for school. And they're now in school

and Frank is in school earning a, um, a certification as a, as an electrician. So we were able to go

and be with him, walk to the kids' schools, meet their teachers, all of these wonderful things and

spend some time with them as well. So it was just so good to pick up the relationship that has already

been established with all of these friends of mine and, um, and just do ministry with them,

do life with them, um, walk down the street and go to the school and go to the marketplace with them

and just spend time. So it was an amazing experience.

That's, that's beautiful with, with Frank and how you're able to step in. Um, and, and let me,

let me ask cause it's your, your, um, let me, let me pull a thread, see what happens. So like you

were able to come in physically and help Frank. And so part of this is, is I'm curious as a digital

church, what, what is the role with physical with, with what you're, what you're doing? Um, and maybe

a follow-up question to that. Do you even consider what yourself, what you're doing? Do you consider

that church? Does Frank consider that church? Uh, is, is the desire to get Frank connected to a physical

church? Is it to stay connected with you? Kind of, you know, some of the ecclesiology, I know,

I know, you know, that area, um, you know, maybe talk to me a little bit about how the chapel online

is operating.

Yeah. So in Frank's case, Frank does have a church that he attends. Um, but that church does not offer

the daily discipleship that we offer. They simply don't have the resources in order to do some of the

things that we're doing. And so I think one of the things that, um, that has been a topic of

conversation since the chapel online started was, and is this a church or is it not a church? And so

many people have asked that. And every time I get asked that, I just kind of smile and say,

I feel like the church is anytime the people of God gather together. That is the church. So are we the

church? Yes, we are the church. Are we a church? Um, I think that's a whole different kind of thing.

Are we a church? No. Are we the church? Yes. Um, and I don't think that, um, I am just not as

concerned about labeling whether we are a church. I just want to be the church. And so for a lot of

our people that are not engaged in a church, in a physical church where they attend, I will try to

counsel them to move toward that. Um, but for some of them, they're not there yet. And I'm okay with

them not being there yet. I would much rather them engage with the chapel online digitally than not

engage with any kind of discipleship at all. And so, you know, I think that all of us should be, um,

should be engaged in as many avenues as possible to build our faith. I know that there was a

conversation I had with somebody who said, but Anne, if they're being discipled on the chapel online

and in church, they're being double discipled. And I'm like, friend, let me be, you know, triple

discipled and quadruple discipled if that's what it takes. I would much rather be double discipled than

only singular discipled. Um, so I'm not, um, I'm not trying to be the only expression of church that

people engage with. I hope that we will all be engaged with multiples, multiple expressions of

church, because I think church, the church is so much more than just one building and one group of

people gathered. Um, and I think that if we, if we see ourselves just as connected and attached with

one particular congregation solely, um, we are being singularly discipled, um, then we miss out on the

richness of other people's perspectives and traditions. And we, we miss out. Um, so I think let's, uh, triple

disciple people. If that's what it takes in order to share the gospel, um, I'm all for it.

I, I don't think I've ever realized I've had this conversation hundreds of times, if not thousands of

times with church planters, lovers, haters, everywhere in between skeptics, naysayers. I don't

think I've ever heard anyone describe to me the a church versus the church mentality like that. And

that's, that's very, um, that's very easy to, to put together, to, to process, to, to reconcile. Um,

you know, and, and I've been, I've been wrestling with that through digital church network. Like we're,

we're, we're, it was somebody, it was funny. One of the, one of our network leaders actually pulled

me aside and he said, you know, I know what you're doing. And I was, I was like, well, what are we

doing? And he's, he's like, you're, you're creating, you're creating a digital church for, for pastors.

Like, like you are setting the model for what digital church should be with, with, with the

network, but you're not calling it a church. And I laughed and I was like, I, I mean, I, I guess

that's what we're doing, but you know, I don't, I, I don't know that I ever really

considered my, what we were doing a church. Uh, I don't, I don't even know that I consider

myself a pastor, but that's, that's a whole other conversation. But this, the heart of,

um, we're not a church, but we're being the church is really interesting. Um, I don't know

that I'm a hundred percent sold, but it's definitely for, for people that are, are skeptics and for

people that struggle with the ecclesiological side. I think that solves a lot of the problems

where it's, Hey, we're, we're working with, uh, by being the church, we're working with people that

are, uh, and, and helping them get connected to a church as well. And the whole idea about single

discipleship is ridiculous. I I've, I've heard that argument. Well, we're discipling them. So you don't

need to, how about we do it together? How, how about there's multiple contextualizations? How about

we, we work together? You know, I, you know, I, I just, I, I totally, I remember reading in the Bible

where Paul talks about isolation and how we should be separated and not working together. I'm being

entirely sarcastic at this moment. So definitely love what you're, what you're doing. Um, talk to me a

little bit like, what's, what, what does the future hold? Are you deeper into, uh, African, um, you

know, connecting with, with more of the, let me ask this question. How much of the chapel is like

American? You, you, you, you alluded to there, you get more attraction, not in your hometown,

you get more attraction in some city and in Africa. Like, is there any percentage of people that are

American? Um, like, is there any, like, what, what is the average American person connecting with? Are

they connecting the same way? Is there differences in how an American and an African is processing

through your stuff? What, what does that look like? So there are, um, some differences. We do have a lot

of people from the U S that are very active in the chapel online. Um, and I love one of my favorite

things to do is to, on Wednesdays, we have live prayer on Facebook. And so Wednesday morning,

I will get up, which Wednesday morning for me is, you know, afternoon, midday to afternoon in Africa.

So that there's a time lapse there, but Wednesday morning, I'll get up and I'll do a post and say,

Hey, going live for prayer later today. How can I be praying for you? Um, I did it just today. We're

recording on a Wednesday. So I did it just this morning and we have the prayer requests that

continue to flood in throughout the day. And I love that the prayer requests that we're praying over

are from people of every, from every continent. And the thing that I love the most is to see

our people praying for each other and commenting on each other's prayer requests. And, you know,

today I had somebody that was a pastor from another, um, from another church in another state that was

commenting on someone's post asking for prayer. And I know the story behind that other person and just

what a beautiful picture to see the people of God coming together in that way. Um, and I think what I

have seen is that my friends from Africa are teaching me and all the rest of the people in the chapel online

from the U S a lot about the power of prayer because they are so very consistent in prayer. They are so

very, um, passionate and, and very intentional about praying for each other and very open about asking

for prayer, asking for prayer in all kinds of different areas and crises in their lives. And so they are

inviting an openness in the chapel online that has been really good for those of us from the U S to learn

from and to grow in. So I think that they are definitely leading me in that area and encouraging

me in that area. Um, since the chapel online started, I have told so many people, I've never prayed this

much in my whole entire life. Like I never knew that we could, that I could spend as much time

in prayer as I do right now. And that's because I have been learning and growing in that area from

my friends, um, in Africa. So they definitely are, are prayer warriors. And I appreciate that.

That's beautiful. I've often wondered, um, like what, and what, uh, oversee what a global influence

would be on, on a U S church or U S individual. And, and, and how could that be? We had a, uh,

a podcast conversation with Sam George and that he was a, he was, he's a missiologist. He works for, um,

sin network and, and a couple other global organizations. But, um, it was funny. Like he, I was funny. I just,

I remember I was describing to him, like some of the things that I was excited about with, with digital

churches, maybe back 2020, uh, early in the COVID season. And, um, I was talking about the global

reach of, of what we could do. And, uh, and Sam, who's, um, Indian, I believe, uh, like India,

Indian, uh, you know, it says to me, it was, was so funny. He, he slapped me upside the head. I don't

even think he realized it. He said, Jeff, your vision for digital is so small. And, and I'm just like,

well, well, what it like, you, you, you don't even know who you're talking to right now.

And, and, and he's like, he's like, you're thinking this way. You know, ultimately it's

like, what happens this way? And it really started to challenge me about how, if we could bring these

global influence, if we could blow, bring the global church to the U S how maybe that helps

solve some of our, some of our, our problems. And so part of that is, is networking to bringing

those influences back towards the U S. So actually creating those, those digital roadways or physical

relationships to, to allow that, uh, influence to come. And then it's also within the U S it's

posturing ourself. And you've done a great job of this hand, posturing yourself with humility,

uh, where you are a learner, where, where you can be teachable, where maybe, maybe just, maybe we

don't have this whole thing here in the U S figure it out. Maybe the U S churches is, is not the, the,

well, I started to say spectacle. Actually, I think it probably is a spectacle, but you know, the,

the dream example of, of what it should be. And maybe there's, um, you know, maybe there's nothing

perfect this side of heaven and we should all be learning from, from one another. And so this is,

this is beautiful. So where are you going like with this? Are you interested? Is it just expanding

Africa? Are you like, let's go to Ukraine? Let's go to Russia. Let's go to, you know,

other Eastern Europe. What is there? Is it just as the Lord leads, are you intentionally driving to do

something? What's, what's your approach with growth and expansion?

So I just am, um, am the first follower is kind of how I'm positioning myself. I'm letting the Holy

Spirit lead and I'm just following. So I, I would love to be able to do some more trips and things

like that to reach out to some different people in different, um, different parts of Africa where

we seem to have a concentration. I would love to spend some time with my friends in Zimbabwe,

since we have so many people from Zimbabwe in the chapel online, um, love to go to South Africa

and to spend some time there. I have multiple people in Pakistan that are wanting me to come

there as well. So I don't know. I mean, really the limit I think for us is we need people who are

English speakers. Um, and that is what kind of, we all seem to have in common. But other than that,

I think that we will just continue to go and to respond to wherever the Holy Spirit is leading.

I would love to eventually be able to launch some community groups and things like that

overseas. Um, that is something that we have done with becoming more. So we have with our women's

group, we have in-person and online groups that meet and we've launched multiple, uh, groups around

the country here in the U S that are becoming more groups. And so that way you have kind of the hybrid

version of in-person and digital that gives you that community. And I would love to eventually

do that in some different places with the chapel online, but with doing this part-time, um, in my

spare time that, um, you know, just slows us down a little bit with our plans. But ultimately,

I would love to be able to see just like I connected those people in Jinja, Uganda. I'd love to begin to

connect the dots with some different people who then begin to have relationships and meet together in

person and grow and do ministry together and do life together. So, so the first one, I guess,

is in Jinja, Uganda with, with my three guys there and we just, we'll see.

I love it. The first follower. Hey, we're, we're, we're following the Holy Spirit, uh,

wherever he leads and, and taking cues for him. And, and, and so, and thank you for what you're doing.

Thank you for being, being obedient. You know, it's been a, a fun road going from, uh, you know,

the established church to bi-vocational, finding the job, continuing the ministry. I mean,

there, there's a, there's a lot around that, um, taking the, the, the ministry to Africa and being

faithful, not to Africa, but with Africa and being faithful to that. Uh, and so definitely excited to

see how, uh, the women's ministry as well as, uh, the, the church continue to grow. But as,

as we're landing the plane here, any, any closing thoughts?

I think I would just encourage people that are engaging in digital ministries to start a conversation

with someone from another country. Um, just go into it with open hands to say,

what might I be able to learn from this person? And I think that once you open the door,

your heart will grow and will expand and your mind will grow and expand. And you will be able to

encounter God in new ways, just because you are open to how God is working in another person,

in another country, in another culture. Um, and I think that that will give each and every person

a little taste of heaven, because I have a feeling we're not going to be sitting in a U.S. section,

and an Africa section, and, uh, uh, an Asian section. We're not going to, we're not going to be sitting

in those sections. Um, and we're going to be all together in this united, diverse community of

believers. And so, how about we start learning that now? And let's, let's do a little warm-up for

heaven. I think that digital gives us the opportunity to do that.

Amen. Actually, honestly, that's why I live in Miami. Uh, it's because of the, the diversity

of this city. It's, it's, it's captivating. Uh, it's expensive. I don't know how I can afford

it anymore, but it's captivating even being, being among this. And so, and I, I, I love,

I love what you're talking about. And, uh, I, I will continue to be praying for, uh, the chapel

online and, and, and what's happening, uh, there, there globally. And so, Hey, we're going to land

the plane. Uh, it's been a great show. We're going to, we've got some more, some more global

opportunities, some more global conversations coming soon. So stay tuned, work, work on a couple other

angles, uh, Germany, uh, Europe as, as well as some others. And so, uh, we'll be leaning into that soon.

But for, for Ann, uh, this is Jeff, uh, with the church digital and digital church network. Thanks

for, for jumping on, uh, the pod here. We'll see you next time on the show. Y'all have a good day.